Mina

Your hatred for muslims MB specifically, keeps you from reading articles like this from 2008:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/23/egypt-women-sexual-harassment

Harassment of women are older than MB you see.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 11:04 utc | 101

96) that comes down to what? votes in the UN - to achieve results like this?

Voting "no" Thursday were Israel, the United States and Canada, joined by the Czech Republic, Panama and several Pacific island nations: Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru and Palau. The Pacific nations typically support the U.S. and Israel at the U.N. on key General Assembly resolutions.

The US bombed and OCCUPIED Iraq to make sure that it follows US policy. Does it do that?

So you assume bribery in Egypt would go further than the people or the length of time bribed?

Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2013 11:29 utc | 102

somebody

Well as I said US policy (Iran/Shia groups/Palestine/Russia/China etc).

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 11:44 utc | 103

Great move by African Union.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/07/201375113557928109.html

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 12:02 utc | 104

Oh now Mursi is probed for "insulting the judiciary", and people here have the nerve to say that the military regime acting democratically!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-egypt-protests-mursi-insults-idUSBRE9630ET20130704

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 12:04 utc | 105

Rationalising what happened in Egypt this week is the only course of action to take when you know that there are no miracles and too much fell into place for it be possible that serendipity or coincidence assisted.

My intial suspicions around this coup were largely to do with the speed of it. For example since Morsi won, various factions & movements have tried to stage mass demonstrations in Tahrir square & mostly these were poorly attended by the standards of the anti-mubarak protests in 2011. The police & army made sure nothing big could gel, even if the population could have been roused from it's general despondency.
Yet in an instant hundreds of thousands of egyptians decide to come out once again - just for this series of protests, where equally coincidentally the army & police & tourism operators plus all the other small businesspeople pissed at the city disruption decide hold back & let it happen.
Everyone decides 'at once' the MB is totally taken by surprise - it really doesn't pass the sniff test does it?

This indicates a lot of planning over many months. Probably using the middle class urban activists who honed their skills in the anti-mubarak protests but didn't get what they wanted in the election. After pharoah mubarak was deposed, their vision of what egypt should look like was vastly different to the masses' vision.

I am reminded of the 'yellow shirts' which destroyed the progressive government in Thailand with similar methods - not once but twice. Remember how the army/police turned a blind eye to their occupation of Bangkok airport? It is also worth noting that the Thaksin Shinawatra government in Thaialnd were brought undone by a judiciary still tied to the old regime. That judiciary pulled a stunt which was much lauded by the international media combines & which made progressive politicians in developing nations around the planet sit up and pay attention.
Thaksin Shinawatra had instituted an assortment of programs aimed at assisting the rural poor. Many of Thailand's problems with rural poverty are similar to those faced by Egypt. The Thai courts announced that Thaksin's programs instituted after the election, were nevertheless election bribery & therefore his government had won by corrupt means and should be dismissed.
If Morsi had fulfilled his election promises before the parliament had been elected, maybe he could have been pulled on this bullshit bribery precedent.

The yellow shirts of Thailand were chiefly urban bourgeois mobilised with assistance fom a certain embassy. Chiefly by using old school communications techniques 2008 was pre 'the great social networking' Spying explosion.
Cairo has a cadre of young bourgois tech heads trained to provide cut rate labour to the international corporations based there since the late 1990's. e.g. from memory, Vodafone international service/help desk is in Cairo.

Last weekend we saw big numbers of people turned out in a short time frame. The numbers were big by the standards of european or amerikan protests sure but like Bangkok, Cairo is one of those sadly mis-named entities, a super city.
Figures differ wildly but many population studies agree that the total urban population of 'greater Cairo' is at least 17 million humans. One third of the total population in Cairo is under 15 and nearly three fifths is under 30.

Bangkok's population is about half Cairo's at about 8 million maybe 10 mill.

Now my point is that although the proportion of middle class 'me me me' types is lower in Cairo & Bangkok that the proportion of hausfraus & their partners in say, Frankfurt. In terms of sheer numbers there may actually be more asocial, amoral little neo-liberal suck asses in Cairo than Frankfurt, London or Paris. Couple that with a much less jaded attitude towards political involvement & it is a reasonable assumption that two years of hard at it organising by fukasi, the egyptian old guard and a newly suborned wannabe bourgeois paid off this week.

I was pretty indifferent to the whole thing until the other morning aotearoa time, when I flicked on the goggle to get my increasingly occasional dose of how fucked up the joint is - aka the morning news. i was tuned into a local network, currently going through yet another receivership & who, like so many other channels nowadays don't use their own foreign correspondents.
Those networks that did have their own staff 'on the ground' appeared reluctant to let them out to interact with the locals, ostensibly since some amerikan talking head was raped during anti-mubarak protests. So they also frequently relied on someone from the plethora of available local talent to tell them what was going on 'out there'.

My channel hooked up with a self described freelancer, a person with an Egyptian name but a thick mid-western amerikan accent. This was about two hours after Morsi had been given the old heave ho. Yet this alleged reporter who just happened to be available for TV networks across the world gave such a subjective take on what was happpening while refusing to discuss issues around concern at the destruction of democratic processes or what was being done by the army to the MB leadership, instead much repeating of exaggerations about how 'all of Egypt was in raptures about this development' that the kiwi anchor cut her off and for the next 2 hours, tried to find a somewhat more impartial stringer wandering the streets of Cairo looking for a gig.

No luck. miraculously journalists with an anti Morsi axe to grind had appeared all over cairo yet it was impossible for the my TV channel to find anyone who prepared to conceal their personal take under the worn out veil of 'objectivity' that mass media prefer.

Where did all these mouthpieces of the coup appear from, on cue all muttering the same bullshit cliches about the joy of all egyptians & refusing to discuss the large pro Morsi demonstrations? I dunno but when stories are so blatantly packaged & sold I tend to stick my fingers in my ears.

Just that issue was enough for me to consider that this coup has been far better planned and co-ordinated than any Egyptian group could have managed on their own.
If this had been planned locally the plot would have leaked for sure. The old skol mubarakists could never have got the urban bourgeois onside and without them the social networking organisation would have fallen over.
The young urban bourgeois lack the material resources and military contacts to pull this off on their own, and neither side have anything like the international media management skills on display that day.

So apart from offering a $10 wager that in 12 to 18 months this 'popular uprising' will turn out to be a canard, an awful example of the dangers of allowing all international IT infrastructure to be controlled by a single nation state, there's nothing more for me to say.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 5 2013 12:19 utc | 106

103) Presumably the US got that with Mubarak, they still did not go for his son. They are afraid of the Egyptian people, and the military men they bribe will not be able to contain them, they were not in Iran, not in other places - not with a conscript army. They miscalculated with the Muslim Brotherhood that is all.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2013 12:22 utc | 107

106)did - it is pretty simple, there has been massive devaluation of the Egyptian pound

This in a country that is food dependent on imports

Food inflation increases

The annual food and beverage inflation rate in February 2013 reached about 9.4 percent compared to 7.86 percent in January 2013. The increase was attributed to the depreciating exchange rate and bottlenecks in fuel distribution. A high rate of 12.57 percent was recorded in February 2012.

The Government’s expenditure on the bread subsidy programme and concerns over its sustainability together with the budgetary implications have provoked heated discussions in the country. In the current 2012/13 fiscal year, Baladi bread alone, accounts for some 61 percent of the EGP 26.6 billion (approximately USD 4.2 billion) food subsidy. In mid March 2013, the Government announced a pilot program of rationing the subsidised bread by introducing smart cards in Port Said and Port Fouad. Details of the program remain unavailable but bakers have already expressed their concern over rising fuel and ingredient costs. Introduction of smart cards is also discussed for some fuel users.

With recent trends of low economic growth, high prices and stagnant incomes, recent reports indicate a significant increase in the poverty rate across Egypt (21.6 percent in 2009 to 25.2 percent in 2011).

In early April 2013, Qatar pledged USD 3 billion to buy government bonds and to supply natural gas in the summer when needs are high, topping up its previous aid of USD 5 billion. A deal with Libya of USD 2 billion five year interest free loan was also reported. Despite protracted negotiations, the IMF stand-by credit facility of USD 4.8 billion is still pending.

As of early April 2013, there are over 35 000 registered Syrian refugees in Egypt, with an additional 15 000 awaiting registration.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2013 13:21 utc | 108

@MR.PRAGMA
I tend to agree with Arnold Evans and Irshad here.
"Egypt under Mubarak may have been an assortment of thing but it was not an official colony of zusa."
can you name an official colony of zusa and maybe you make the effort to offer some reasoning.

"The Egyptian military has no ability to, independently of the US, overthrow the civilian government." yes they have more then enough APCs and guns,like the former army of the Shah of iran had,you remember what hapened to them after the revolution?(saddam hussein got his first green light to attack a neighbor)and all the millitary hardware was worth nothing without us spare parts).
you want some reasoning read between the lines
I tend to agree with With you that running this forum and offering opportunity to discuss facts, relevant factors and even halfway properly reasoned opinions is thanks worthy but this is actually happening here.

Posted by: some1 | Jul 5 2013 13:42 utc | 109

A year of democratic farce
Giuseppe Acconcia, Open Democracy, Jul 4 2013

On Jun 30 2012, Mohammed Morsi took over as the Mubarak successor. However, on the occasion of the first anniversary of the Muslim Brothers’ victory when this interview took plave, bloody clashes broke out in the country. Samir Amin, Egyptian philosopher and economist, director of the Third World Forum in Dakar, talks about the last year in Egypt with the Brotherhood in power, interviewed by Giuseppe Acconcia.

Acconcia: What do you think about the Tamarod’s campaign?
Samir Amin: The Tamarod’s campaign for the Morsi dismissal is magnificent. Millions of people signed their names after giving deep political consideration to what they were doing: something totally ignored by the international mainstream media. They represent the majority of all the electoral constituencies, but they do not have any voice. The Muslim Brothers wield political power and like to think they can control 100% of the votes. Thus, they ensured members of the movement in every public sector. Their way of managing the country is informed by a type of crony capitalism which simply does not leave any room for the opposition figures and technocrats who had some power even in the Mubarak era.
Acconcia: This is happening during the worst economic crisis of recent decades.
Samir Amin: There is more than an economic crisis. Islamists have only ultraliberal answers to give to the crisis: they have replaced the capitalists’ bourgeois clique that were Mubarak’s friends with reactionary businessmen. Moreover, their goal is quite simply to sell off public goods. The Brotherhood is hated by Egyptians because it continues with the same policies as its predecessor.
Acconcia: Maybe worse in the case of the Islamic Finance Bill?
Samir Amin: It is theft to attach derisory prices to goods that are worth billions of dollars. These are not the usual privatizations that reactionary regimes indulge in, selling off goods at their economic value. This is pure fraud more than a privatization.
Acconcia: Recalling the stages of this year with the Brotherhood in power: Morsi won after eight days of uncertainty and finally the elimination of the Nasserist, Hamdin Sabbahi, in the first round. Were the 2012 presidential elections manipulated?
Samir Amin: There was massive electoral fraud. Hamdin Sabbahi could have passed into the second round, but the US Embassy did not want it. European observers listened to their American diplomatic counterparts and turned a blind eye to the fraud involved. Moreover, the five million votes for Sabbahi were squeaky clean and highly motivated. On the other hand, the five million votes for Morsi came from the most wretched part of the population, devoid of political conscience: the votes of people willing to be bought off for a piece of bread and a glass of milk.
Acconcia: But would you agree that the sharpest clashes between the presidency and demonstrators broke out last November as a consequence of the presidential decree that extended Morsi’s powers?
Samir Amin: Morsi got going with a few weeks of demagogic speechifying, promising to listen to the other political contestants. After that, it soon became clear the extent to which the President was a puppet with the Gulf countries pulling the strings out of sight. He became a mere instrument of the murshid’s will, that of Mohammed Badie, Supreme Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Acconcia: The historic support to the Palestinians had been shelved as well?
Samir Amin: The Egyptian Muslim Brothers support Israel, like the Gulf countries and Qatar do. They have always adopted an anti-Zionist discourse, but this was just an ongoing deception. The Qatari Emir, for example, is quite used to saying one thing and then doing the opposite, given the complete absence of public opinion. Now Egypt is supporting the worst type of opposition in Syria, as do the most reactionary western powers. The end result is that the majority of the western weapons furnished to the rebels are being used to finance the very worst outcome in Syria.
Acconcia: Is this why Morsi supported the creation of a Free Trade Area in the Sinai, favouring an economic relationship with Israel?
Samir Amin: This is a huge loss to Egypt. The effects of the new Free Trade Area will not be the imagined industrialization of the region, but the perpetration of a huge fiscal fraud. This will strengthen small mafias and the dismantling of public assets. In the end, the Brotherhood would accept all the conditions of the IMF and the expected loan will accordingly come to fruition despite the fact that corruption and financial scandal have spread all over the country.
Acconcia: So how do you see the acceptance of the Constitution written by the Muslim Brotherhood, last December?
Samir Amin: This is a dictatorship of the majority. However, judges put up the strongest and indeed an unprecedented fight against the ratification of the constitutional referendum results. But it is clear that the ultimate goal of Freedom and Justice is to build-up a theocracy on the Iranian model.
Acconcia: To conclude, is there anything left to preserve in this year of Morsi’s presidency?
Samir Amin: The lumpen-proletariat is easily manipulated, and a fortiori would not obtain anything by the upheaval Morsi’s overthrow will bring. Moreover, the division of power the Brotherhood has with the army who is behind the scenes, ready to intervene, is full of ambiguity. The military personnel, as a class, are corrupt; a corruption guaranteed by US help, and carefully composed of segments of different classes, divided into political currents, many of them close to the Brotherhood and the Salafis. However, with normal elections, with a period of democratic preparation, the Brotherhood will be beaten. But if this is not going to happen, next October there will be a more repressive climate and the vote will be manipulated by widespread falsification as happened on the previous occasion.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 5 2013 13:44 utc | 110

Now the army is killing peaceful mursi-supporting protesters, where are Mr Pragma, guest77, Mina now to defend against this murderous military regime?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 13:54 utc | 111

Assuming Samir Amin is eligible to vote in Egypt's elections, he definitely should have done so. But if his side got the fewest votes, as it did in every election, either he respects the outcome that most Egyptian voters disagree with him, or he does not respect democracy or Egypt's voters and he is in practical terms a supporter of US colonial efforts in Israel's region.

We know there are millions of people who oppose the MB. Millions of people voted against the MB. Just not enough millions upon millions to comprise a majority.

If Mitt Romney right now says Barack Obama broke his promises and anyway our experts have new evidence that his birth certificate is fake, Romney could bring millions upon millions of people to protests. Does that mean out of the blue, Obama must call a new election? No. Obama must leave office when the constitutional requirements indicate he must leave. Either his term ends or another branch of government authorized to remove him by the constitution does so.

There was a petition campaign at the same time elections were being delayed by the Court that the military has transferred power to now. The organizers claim there are 22 million signatures. Are there really 22 million signatures? The only people to count them are the organizers. That's why elections, whose votes are counted in view of representatives of all side if they'd like can give a reliable indication of the majority while petition campaigns cannot.

Posted by: Arnold Evans | Jul 5 2013 14:37 utc | 112

@debs - "Thaksin Shinawatra had instituted an assortment of programs aimed at assisting the rural poor."

And the MB, did they offer similar programs? The only things I've seen are austerity measures and a free flight to Syria, but I haven't been following MB social programs that closely.

____________

@anon - You like your arguments simple and transparent and mixed in with a bit of emotional appeal. Maybe that looks good to you, but for everyone else it's an over-sweet mix and tough to swallow. Please note that the battle over Egypt is not being fought on MOA, its being fought on the streets of Egypt. Its likely that everyone here, like myself, was glad to see the Egyptian people rebel, have an election and bring morsi to power. I, personally, am even more happy to see that the revolution is not over with.

@anon and @arnold: If Capriles had won the recent Venezuelan elections with 51% of the vote on a center-left platform (keeping the social programs, with only slight changes in foreign policy) and over the course of the year he did everything to dismantle the Chavez programs, privatized PDVSA, begged loans off the IMF in order to lower taxes, and finally offered Venezuelan troops to go fight "against the FARC" along the Ecuador border and for "peacekeeping in Haiti"... would you ask the Venezeulan people to "wait it out" until the damage is irreversible? Even if 5 Million Venezuelans - Chavistas, MUD voters, and independents - had been on the streets of Caracas?

You're logic has been too simple and too black and white. You may be pleased with your high-minded stance now, but you will have to eat it one day, is my guess.

Democracy, as someone said earlier, is not an end in itself.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 14:46 utc | 113

@Arnold "If Mitt Romney right now says Barack Obama broke his promises and anyway our experts have new evidence that his birth certificate is fake, Romney could bring millions upon millions of people to protests."

This is the silliest comparison you offer. The situation in Egypt and the United States are very nearly not even on the same planet. Nor would Romney ever get "millions" of USAns - willing to die for Romney - into the streets.

To compare the situation of millions of people living on $2 a day and nearly starving; facing food shortages in an increasingly violent society who have just been told that their sole options are to go to fight in Syria or perhaps loot the possessions of their Copt and Shia brothers - to the imagined, media driven "anger" of the upper middle classes of the world's empire over a fake controversy about a piece of paper is really out of bounds Arnold.

The situations are not equal. Not even in your high-minded theoretical world you imagine yourself in where people follow all the rules laid out for them, even if they are starving during an increasingly hot Egyptian Summer.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 14:54 utc | 114

guest77

Try making an argument instead of using ad hominem.

Why dont we hear you know when the military is killing civlian protesters? Do you condemn it?

You seems confused. Chavez and Capriles belong to the same party. Mubarak and Mursi coming from 2 different angles, there is no comparsion at all.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 15:00 utc | 115

@somebody, #102:

No, the US bombed and invaded Iraq to split the country along the religious/ethnic lines. It did Israel's bidding: destroy the periphery, weaken all countries that might give the Palestinians support in the face of the complete annexation of the West Bank.

Posted by: g_h | Jul 5 2013 15:00 utc | 116

guest77

Besides, making up your own arbitary history of Mursi isnt honest either. You seems to be reading to much fox and cnn, I bet you havent even taken the time to hear what the MB side thinks about the coup.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 15:02 utc | 117

@Anon "Chavez and Capriles belong to the same party."

Statements like this are good. It really lets people see where you are coming from.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 15:07 utc | 118

some1 (109)

I tend to agree with Arnold Evans and Irshad here.
"Egypt under Mubarak may have been an assortment of thing but it was not an official colony of zusa."
can you name an official colony of zusa and maybe you make the effort to offer some reasoning.

a) It is not necessary to name any official colony of zusa, nor even that one exists at all to state "Egypt was not an offical colony of zusa under Mubarak".

b) There is no need for reasoning when stating plain facts.

yes they have more then enough APCs and guns,like the former army of the Shah of iran had,you remember what hapened to them after the revolution?(saddam hussein got his first green light to attack a neighbor)and all the millitary hardware was worth nothing without us spare parts).

That may be however that happens to be and you are, of course, free to draw or invent or suggest or suppose parallels to your liking but the relevant question is whether this shows (or even proves) anything for Egypt.

As you happen to come back to my remarks concerning

running this forum and offering opportunity to discuss facts, relevant factors and even halfway properly reasoned opinions

let me state:

There are many views concerning this world and the events in it. Sometimes, probably even often, there is no singular "correct view" but rather an array of legitimate views. Of course, one can see anything quite differently than myself or and be "right".
Actually I do not consider that troublesome but rather atractive and it happens to be one reason why I'm here - to learn about other peoples views.

A view or a opinion, however, has to be based on reality and facts or at least on well educated speculation following, for instance, well proven patterns of logic and observable reality.

I can, for instance, accept (and even value) the view of some who consider morsi a victim of a lack of understanding and/or accepting democratic principles, although I personally strongly disagree with such a view - *if* those people offer sound reasoning and do not simply ignore or bend reality (as well as it may be known).

Anonymous (111)

Now the army is killing peaceful mursi-supporting protesters, where are Mr Pragma, guest77, Mina now to defend against this murderous military regime?

Do you have any proof or are you - again - just spreading your private and heavily bent version of something?

According to what I know (which is less than I'd like to) there have been shots fired between the army and mb members. About the only tangible event that I can find information on right now is news that talk about the army shooting at mb members trying to storm the place where morsi is held. Presumably that place is some military or police installation and it would be generally accepted practice for state forces to defend their installations against any attackers.

Mabye there is some scandal, yes, maybe. But from what is known so far those mb members acted illegaly and got the response that one would get in pretty every country if one tried to storm state installations, particularly when doing so to free some prisoner.

And, no, I'm not defending the army. I have no dog in that race and my *only* preferred party in that matter is the Egypt people. From what I've seen so far the Egypt army acted and behaved quite correct and obviously interested in a peaceful transition and they seem to have the vast majority of the Egypt people behind them.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 5 2013 15:17 utc | 119

guest77

I mixed Capriles up with Manduro.
The question refuse to respond to speak volumes and show your hatred for democracy.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 15:19 utc | 120

And yes, I certainly condemn - if it is true as it has been reported - the killing of protestors by the Egyptian Army.

This is not over, not by a longshot. You've thrown your support behing the MB. I'm hoping for a win for the Egyptian people. The will is still being expressed, even as we speak.

I know you wont understand that as you like simple formulations.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 15:21 utc | 121

Anon you say "the question is simple" and you're entirely right.

It's far, far too simple.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 15:23 utc | 122

116) Do you think it makes sense to divide Israel's periphery in Sunni and Shiite, when those identities cross boundaries, i.e. Israel could be faced by a united Sunni political Islam and a united Shiite political Islam when both ideologies were non sectarian in the first place?

The consequence of that (US/Qatari funded Syrian, Egyptian, Gazan, West Bank, Turkish Muslim Brotherhood) just explodes in Egypt.

So eitner US Americans are stupid or their policies are driven by something else. I suggest the latter.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2013 15:31 utc | 123

Guest77

I defend the democracy compared to you, when you say "its not over" give me shills because you have made it clear that you support unseating democratically elected people. Compared to you I dont reject the opposition nor mursi, you hate mursi, mb and perhaps even muslims themselves.

If you were honest you would support the imprisoned opposition by now, and the opposition as we speak are MB, but you dont do that.

Mr Pragma

Interesting that killing of civilians according to you cant be condmned but is conditional.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 15:34 utc | 124

This wondrous piece has now sadly been taken offline - RB

Ahmed Mansour reveals: A Jew in Egypt’s seat of power
Abdallah Metawaa, Ikhwan Online, Jul 4 2013 (transl: MB In English, Jul 5)

Well known broadcaster Ahmed Mansour has said that Adly Mansour, head of the Supreme Constitutional Court and who has been appointed President of Egypt by the army, is considered to be a Seventh Day Adventist, which is a Jewish sect. Ahmed Mansour revealed in a post on his Facebook page that Adly tried to approach Christianity but the Coptic pope refused to baptise him. Ahmed Mansour mentioned ElBaradei’s position when he said that he would not take part in a Shura Council that denies the holocaust!!! This is a token gesture offered to the Jews by ElBaradei so that he can become President of the Republic in the fake elections that the military will guard and whose results they will falsify in their interests…All with the approval of America, Israel and the Arabs, of course. Ahmed Mansour said in his post, “this is the glorious scene of the future of Egypt and the Arabs, who competed to recognise the coup, the coup whose drum the secularists are dancing to…even to the extent that one of them, who hates religion, Islam and the nation announced that he has been reborn…and that his date of birth is 30/6, that is, the day the army of defeats staged a coup against ballot box legitimacy. Counsellor Adly Mansour – head of the Supreme Constitutional Court and who will temporarily hold the post of President of Egypt after being appointed by the Armed Forces after the removal of President Mohamed Morsy – will begin his duties today after swearing an oath before the General Assembly of the Constitutional Court.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 5 2013 15:41 utc | 125

The Tamarod’s campaign for the Morsi dismissal is magnificent. Millions of people signed their names after giving deep political consideration to what they were doing: something totally ignored by the international mainstream media. They represent the majority of all the electoral constituencies, but they do not have any voice.

Maybe we in the west should have something like this. Go Egypt go. God works in mysterious ways for Syria, first 2 ships carrying arms sink, now this. The end of the Thirteenth tribe as we know it is soon to be.

Posted by: hans | Jul 5 2013 16:02 utc | 126

I think I started out this whole debate lamenting over the fact that what we are really watching is the Egyptian working class at each others throats while the neo-liberal policies go on an on. I stick with this. Mubarak, Army, Morsi, Army - the one constant is the neo-liberal policies. The Army has come to power again. We see street protests still, and will see more the longer they remain in power.

I have nothing against Morsi. If he could have ruled in such a way that millions of Egyptians - the real actors here, not me, not you Anon (sad I have to point that out, you must have an active fantasy life) - didn't feel they had to risk their lives to bring him down I'd support him. If there were no street protests and the Army launched a coup, people here would not support that.

I hope to see street protests until the neo-liberal policies are dropped. Until Egyptians have "Bread, Dignity and Social Justice." And I think we will.

"you hate mursi, mb and perhaps even muslims themselves." This is truly sickening. And you talk about ad hominem attacks. The fact that you continually drag garbage like this out make is clear you cannot debate honestly. You've got a case of the "shills" indeed.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 16:02 utc | 127

"I think I started out this whole debate" by this I mean my initial thoughts. Not that I "began" this.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 16:04 utc | 128

Guest77

Well of course you have something against Mursi you have just supported a coup against him. You seems confused?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 16:10 utc | 129

@anon

Quite funny that because I don't support Morsi I suddenly hate all Muslims. Have the right wing Muslim Brotherhood learned that old, well-worn right-wing Israeli trick of calling everyone who hates Israeli policies an anti-Semite? Bravo. Next step is to build a couple of deft hasbara teams.

"Well of course you have something against Mursi" Yes, and I guess you have something against reading a whole sentence.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 16:21 utc | 130

Guest77

Well..thats my point. Thats why I asked if you wered confused.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 16:31 utc | 131

After decades of supporting "Stability" in the middle east the western blok is in a dillema-the so caled Stability-Democracy dilema

Posted by: some1 | Jul 5 2013 16:40 utc | 132

guest77

"the one constant is the neo-liberal policies"

How do you come to that conclusion? Isn't it a bit early and/or strongly influenced by some general world-view to say that?

I mean, as zusa happens to still have a major influence (not because of actual power but because of bad habits and large installed base of puppets) in the world, of course those influences are to be noticed almost anywhere.
But it seems to me that we shouldn't hurry to prematurily come to a judgement.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 5 2013 16:49 utc | 133

Posted by: Arnold Evans | Jul 4, 2013 12:28:58 PM | 13

“It is surprising to see how deep the colonialist impulse runs in Westerners.”

Arnold glad to see you are posting again, it’s not just the colonialism that runs deep in westerners you got to ad deep orientalism which was started by western intellectuals and academics and now has transformed to a dangerous form of western street level anti Islam mindset, this is dangerous.

By the way why have lost interest on posting your comments on Iran issues? I always enjoy reading your comments .

Posted by: kooshy | Jul 5 2013 16:57 utc | 134

That "MB In English" blog which I got the article about Adly Mansour being a Jew from, has a lot of pretty startling stuff. And every piece is linked back to its arabic original at Ikhwan Online. I just spent ten minutes scrolling through it, and I found one full-blown essay espousing what is popularly known as 'Holocaust Denial' and another, which promised to be the first part of a series, espousing the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. It almost makes me wish I could read arabic!

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 5 2013 17:06 utc | 135

Errr...I have to react to this:

guest77 posted:

To compare the situation of millions of people living on $2 a day and nearly starving; facing food shortages in an increasingly violent society who have just been told that their sole options are to go to fight in Syria ..

Sure, Syria, other ME or 'muslim' countries, is not the US, for sure.

There are over 46 million ppl on food stamps in the US. The aid given is about 2 dollars a day per head, that is, two meals costing a dollar each. Children can get ‘free’ school lunch / breakfast (mostly - made up from US agri surplus. Also most have to pay for it. It is complicated.)

Food stamps (now SNAP) are actually quite hard to get - the family income must be completely in the pits, and many states put up official barriers e.g. no drug convictions, no felonies, etc., you are not eligible, or simply don’t process the demand, or require impossible work training, traveling to X place or whatever which poor ppl cannot do.

About 50 to 60 million ppl in the US are what is delicately called ‘food insecure.’ That is, they eat not so often, don’t know where their next meal is coming from, rely on hyper-cheap calories in the form of chips cookies sweet drinks etc. in so called food deserts, that is all they can afford. The children starve. Yes, starve. They go to bed hungry, parents sing songs and eat almost nothing to give to the kids. Then at 5 years they are diagnosed with ADD, sensory deficits, disabilities, are partially deaf, are in the emergency room every month, etc.

These ppl are invisible and aren’t even up enough to send a family member to the Army (etc.), though a few manage, and then they EAT! A leg up, killing other poor people who happen to have another religion and are also trying to live on a few dollars a day, can feed a family of 2 or 3 in the US ...in the best conditions, it often does not work out.

I reckon, without any evidence at all, that even today children in Syria are eating better than the bottom 10% in the US.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 5 2013 17:11 utc | 136

@Mr. P:

I don't think the army is going to make any economic changes - they haven't the inclination as far as I know. The run a large portion of the economy, do they not?

I'm greatly interested if you think they'll make changes. As far as I see they're not really a force for social change.

But I'm not an Egyptian economics expert.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 17:12 utc | 137

kooshy

Very bad when Orientalism have affected even the left indeed.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 17:15 utc | 138

@135

You're right of course. My intention though was to make the comparison with your average Romney supporter whom Arnold wanted to compare the Egyptian protestors with. I don't think too many Romney supporters are on food assistance. If they are they are either missed or enjoy the great deal of scorn their favored candiate poured upon them.

Though many in the United States are having a hard time - something I see everyday in my neighborhood and in the big city I live in - my guess is that it doesn't come close to the privation that occurs in Egypt. Certainly in scale one cannot compare Camden, New Jersey with the towering slums of Cairo or Mumbai.

And please don't make the mistake that I feel that this fact is because the United States has a superior system. It is the exact consequence of the fact that the rest of the world (and huge parts of the US hinterland) is locked in poverty that the (big cities and continental core of the) United States is so rich.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 17:21 utc | 139

Rowan posted at 57 - Rousseau was very far from being an Enlightenment thinker. He was a neo-primitivist.

Absolutely. And I agree on the whole with the rest.

tangent: Saddam Hussein went from pan-Arabism of the socialist stripe to supporting, enhancing, the local religion. Erdogan plays his folksy moves about how he is of the ppl and the so-called intelligentsia (which he loves to imprison) and hoity-toity cultural townie rich superiors are to be vilified and dismissed in favor of sincere, ancestral, deep values and so on. Heh! Primitiveness can serve many a master, though the definition of populist appeals in religious terms is AWOL. The US is no different.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 5 2013 17:25 utc | 140

guest77, yes I understand, Ok, right.

The thread is about Egypt, Morsi, etc. Moves in high places. Discussing poverty and hunger is perhaps not germane right here for now. Hmm.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 5 2013 17:46 utc | 141

re 121. guest77

I don't understand why you and others doubt the facts of the army shooting down Mursi supporters. The BBC journalist Jeremy Bowen was there and wounded lightly. Jeremy Bowen witnessed the shooting, and was also hit by shot gun pellets above the ear

But I guess you doubted it because it doesn't fit your narrative. Personally I don't see any reason to be nice about the Egyptian army and its commanders. They conducted a coup, rather than wait for election time.

The latest specialist academic estimate from Eugene Rogan, a well-known contemporary historian of the Middle East at Oxford, that I heard today is that MB would have won the next election.

I certainly find the idea that the army, and indeed the anti-Mursi demonstrators, somehow represent the Egyptian people is completely unproven. That there were 22 million signatures on the petition is only on the organisers' say-so. The numbers attending the demonstrations ditto - highly uncertain, but in any case only represent opinion in Cairo. Cairo opinion tends to be very different from the rest of the country.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 5 2013 18:12 utc | 142

@Noirette

I'm missing something in your post. Sorry, I'm a little dense sometimes. I would say poverty and hunger has a bug part in the protests. Is that incorrect?

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 18:15 utc | 143

@Alexno 141

I didn't think the Egyptian military used shotguns. Is this a new tactic?

Posted by: ahji | Jul 5 2013 18:18 utc | 144

I didn't think the Egyptian military used shotguns.

Yeah, it surprised me, but that's what they said. Maybe to be corrected later, or maybe the shotguns were in the latest $1.5 billion shipment from the Louisiana Police Department.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 5 2013 18:33 utc | 145

141 The latest specialist academic estimate from Eugene Rogan, a well-known contemporary historian of the Middle East at Oxford, that I heard today is that MB would have won the next election.

How could they win an election when their Salafi partner with roughly half their "majority" votes, the Nour Party, sides with the opposition?

Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2013 18:40 utc | 146

alexno (141)

I don't understand why you and others doubt the facts of the army shooting down Mursi supporters.

Maybe because we do not yet have any credible information that this happened?
According to the Egypt army they did not use live ammo, according to some news outlets the army merely defended their installation (as opposed to going out in streets, looking for morsi fans and shooting them), according to some others the army is an evil horde lead by some darth vader kind of bad guy mercilessly killing babies in the wombs of their m mothers.

The BBC journalist Jeremy Bowen was there and wounded lightly. Jeremy Bowen witnessed the shooting, and was also hit by shot gun pellets above the ear

Question: How does one know when a bbs "journalist" lies?
Answer: When his lips move.

Frankly, bbc has been caught being severely biased and lying so often that they are left with no credibility whatsoever.

But I guess you doubted it because it doesn't fit your narrative. Personally I don't see any reason to be nice about the Egyptian army and its commanders. They conducted a coup, rather than wait for election time.

Come on ... get over it. Although many here like to ignore that detail fact is that a majority, possibly a quite large one, of Egyptians - incl. ex-voters for morsi - are quite happy about morsi and his anti-democratic mb fans being forced out.

And again, that's what the final measure is: the Egypt people.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 5 2013 18:40 utc | 147

Mr Pragma

" detail fact is that a majority, possibly a quite large one, of Egyptians "

Another unsourced claim.
Republicans could probably mass in the streets, does that mean Obama has to go? Does that mean the american military are free to arrest obama, turn down liberal pro-obama media, arrest the white house staff?

BBC lies? Are you saying BBC are on Mursi's payroll? Nonsense.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 18:51 utc | 148

@MR.PRAGMA
I'm here - to learn about other peoples views TOO.And i actuelly enjoy reading your opinion too but i was referring to your comment to AE on the last page(79)
"Unfortunately, we are left to guess because AE doesn't offer the reasoning (let's not even talk about reasons and facts ...) behind his decree of wisdom." maybe AE tought the same way you do "There is no need for reasoning when stating plain facts."

"A view or a opinion, however, has to be based on reality and facts or at least on well educated speculation following, for instance, well proven patterns of logic and observable reality."

I dont know were you are from or live or about yours - but my "observable reality" is the people in the midlle east and the way they see the world (they dont understand the colonial way of thinking at all).
A view or a opinion can be based on everything even on bad habbits like colonialism or the lack of knowledge and opinions should be tolarated(and tollerance can hurt).
Larry Diamond a theorist on democracy argues that Arab states do not have democracies for a number of reasons.Firsttly , and perhaps most importantly it is due to oil revenue, that most Arab states do not tax it's citizens, thus eliminating the idea that the state is accountable to it's people-but the other way around- and in Egypt there was no tax but substituton of oil and food no oil revenue but a wide open suez canal and stability for israel.The U.S. contributes to authoritarianism in the Arab world by donating billions of dollars to Arab states, thus eliminating the need to tax individuals.Journal of Democracy Volume 21, Number 1 January 2010.
I hope this was some kind of well educated speculation because we dont get much of this prinston stuff here in the middle east.

Posted by: some1 | Jul 5 2013 18:52 utc | 149

Maybe because we do not yet have any credible information that this happened? According to the Egypt army they did not use live ammo, according to some news outlets the army merely defended their installation

Yes of course the army claimed that. I think a senior BBC journalist on the spot, you can believe him. Particularly as this story is not in the British government playbook.

Although many here like to ignore that detail fact is that a majority, possibly a quite large one, of Egyptians - incl. ex-voters for morsi - are quite happy about morsi and his anti-democratic mb fans being forced out.

That's funny. There is zero proof that the revolters are a majority - that is, none, nil, nada, etc. It's just your impression - plus the claims of the organisers, who of course have an interest in pushing up the figures. Falsifying signatures on a petition - it's the easiest thing in the world to do.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 5 2013 18:55 utc | 150

Latest Blow to Brotherhood: Sheikh Qaradawi Evicted from Qatar, Brotherhood Offices Closed:
How the mighty have fallen!

Posted by: hans | Jul 5 2013 19:04 utc | 151

Anonymous

" detail fact is that a majority, possibly a quite large one, of Egyptians "

Another unsourced claim.

Nope.

a) poll results. While different polls came to different results they did agree in a clear majority against morsi.

b) logic. When someone won with a slight majority he clearly loses majority when a major contributor to his victory changes to opposing him.

BBC lies? Are you saying BBC are on Mursi's payroll? Nonsense.

Another striking example for your "logic" that regularly turns out to be no more than arbitrarily relating issues and some wild causal guessing thrown in.

a) bbc has been found and proven lying many times. No speculations needed there.

b) the reasons and factors behind bbc's lying can be - and probably are - a mixture of diverse interests, oligations, relations, character issues and more.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 5 2013 19:07 utc | 152

alexno

You have people being shot in a manner that surprises even you. You have only eyewitness accounts - meaning accounts from one perspective during the fog of a street fight battle. And we're talking of a man who was shot. Certainly unlikely he saw who fired.

You may be right but this wouldn't be the first time guns were used to cause trouble at a protest, the real culprits being unknown, would it? Perhaps we should let time tell. Unless you really desperately need right now at this very moment to use foggy events to make a quick point. In which case, go ahead.

You say we reject it because it doen't fit our narrative. Perhaps you are quick to accept it because it fits yours.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 19:09 utc | 153

Alexno: "Particularly as this story is not in the British government playbook."

There is no evidence that this coup is a western plot is there? In which case whose playbook again is being followed?

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 19:13 utc | 154

148) It sounds convincing except for the fact that Egypt has taxation and has had taxation for more than 3000 years.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2013 19:14 utc | 155

Mr Pragma

1. Lets see what you wrote:

"..fact is that a majority, possibly a quite large one, of Egyptians - incl. ex-voters for morsi - are quite happy about morsi and his anti-democratic mb fans being forced out."

You have ZERO proof that "a majority" are "happy" that "mb fans"(sic!) are "forced out".

2.What you have are polls that show that Mursis approval have declined. Just like Obama's approval have declined throuhout his period.

Slight majority? How is it more slight than any other democracy? Obama vs Romney for example?

3. "BBC lies", one of the most respected news channels are turned away as lies. You really making a mockery of yourself Mr Pragma.

Your contempt for muslims came to show too with this line: " anti-democratic mb fans"

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 19:26 utc | 156

Mr Pragma

Why do you ignored my question:

Republicans could probably mass in the streets, does that mean Obama has to go? Does that mean the american military are free to arrest obama, turn down liberal pro-obama media, arrest the white house staff?

So does republicans have the right to oust Obama? Does the military have the right to put Obama in confinement? PRove you are not a hypocrite!

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 19:28 utc | 157

@154
Iran or Persia has had taxation for more than 3000 years too(Persians and Medes didnt had to pay tax in ancient times) but after the revolution,during the war and even now....you cant copare that even to south europe also the spendings of the government for the people are less or maybe equal when you ad corruption and consider population.

Posted by: some1 | Jul 5 2013 19:32 utc | 158

...dont pay much tax.
sorry

Posted by: some1 | Jul 5 2013 19:34 utc | 159

157) why do you think Obama's every third word is "bipartisan"?

Posted by: somebody | Jul 5 2013 19:43 utc | 160

some1 (148)

"Unfortunately, we are left to guess because AE doesn't offer the reasoning (let's not even talk about reasons and facts ...) behind his decree of wisdom." maybe AE tought the same way you do "There is no need for reasoning when stating plain facts."

Quite probably AE sometimes states facts. Not in this case, however. let me quote his statement again for your convenience:

The Egyptian military has no ability to, independently of the US, overthrow the civilian government.

Evidently in this case A Evans mistook some of his neurons firing as a fact. This is even more evident considering that he wrote this non-fact *after* the Egypt army *did* force morsi out of office.

Let me help out: A fact is something commonly observable and provable.

Now, one might debate, of course, whether, say, some remark of an astrophycicist is commonly observable or not. He, sitting next to a large telescope might say "Yes it is!" while you and I, looking out of our kitchen windows might say "Nope. I don't see it".

Now you might say "But it's hard to show or even prove zusa involvement because, of course, they prefer to stay in the shadow" - and you would be right - but you would at the same time have explained yourself why you can *not* talk about such involvement as a fact.

Furthermore, using the term "independently" (of zusa) AE basically says plain nothing by staying so vague as to make his statement hardly more than conspirational hinting.

I dont know were you are from or live or about yours - but my "observable reality" is the people in the midlle east and the way they see the world (they dont understand the colonial way of thinking at all).

As you seem to live there I respectfully take notice of what you say. At the same time I can hardly help myself but asking "After so many years at the receiving end of the colonial way of thinking it looks quite strange to me when hearing that they don't understand it".

---

You see, I'm very much willing to hear about other views and opinions. And I have no problem listening to not so well formed opinions; as you remarked correctly not everybody has enjoyed a good education at some fine university.
But there is one decisive point: There must be some honesty and openmindedness involved. Merely pushing ones view propaganda-like is *not* 'saying ones opinion in a discussion'. And 'not having the education to properly put ones opinion' is very much different from 'abusing a discussion to spam others with propaganda'.
Often one can spot the difference quite easily: someone lacking the education to properly develop consistent thoughts and to put his thoughts in words will *listen and learn*; he will be driven by a desire to understand better and more. Propaganda spreaders, however, will simply continue to push their agenda.

alexno (149)

Please, forgive me but I'm getting tired to again and again go through the whole run of certain points.
You think bbc or at least this journalist is credible? Great, I wont try to convince you otherwise. But kindly accept that I have enough experience with bbc lying that I don't trust them in no matter what issue.

You think, morsi still has a majority? No problem with me. Based on my information morsi may be left with 20% - 30% if that. Unless someone can conclusively show that morsi does have a majority behind him I'll stay with what I know. Kindly accept that - or show me otherwise based on credible sources and numbers.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 5 2013 19:43 utc | 161

re 154 There is no evidence that this coup is a western plot is there?

A lot of people think it, but the main sign is as Debs said, the quality of preparation of the coup. He's right that we don't know yet, and may not know for some time. It must be the case that the US was aware of what was about to happen; what is not certain is the degree of US causation.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 5 2013 19:52 utc | 162

Who buys this bullshit that revolutionary Egypt has any relation to the Obomney PR campaign of the United States?

Anyone?

And again accusing people of anti-muslim bias because they're not supporting the "right" (and I do mean Right) Muslims.

Round and round we go.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 5 2013 19:53 utc | 163

re 146 Somebody

How could they win an election when their Salafi partner with roughly half their "majority" votes, the Nour Party, sides with the opposition?

Well, Eugene Rogan is a good historian. I read his book. I only heard a snippet of his interview on the radio, so don't know the full argument.

Of course, today's political alignments might not be true in a year's time, particularly when you have natural allies separated. I always liked Harold Wilson's dictum: "A week is a long time in politics".

Posted by: alexno | Jul 5 2013 20:05 utc | 164

Anonymous (156)

Your contempt for muslims came to show too with this line: " anti-democratic mb fans"

I consider you, sorry for putting it bluntly finally, a disturbed spammer (which also answers your question in 157).

But I will anyway pick out this one incredible insult of you and comment on it - *because* I sincerely respect Islam and Muslims.

And again you play a dirty trick by insidiously implying that mb and muslim are more or less the same. They are *not*.

Putting it somewhat simplyfied there are many groups relating themselves to Islam but basically just one issue separating the major groups, the Sunni and the Shia. And that point relates to something very far back in history, namely a question that basically comes down to "Is the true succession to Mohamed to be determined on blood (family) or spirit?".

The vast majority of Muslims are God loving good people, including even many of the more extreme groups who merely and with the best intentions follow religious leaders.

The problem starts when certain political interests enter. This can happen by interpreting the Quran in a political way, blowing up details that fit ones interests unproportionally following a *political* agenda and basically abusing religion for that purpose - and/or - it can happen by politizising the Quran/Islam, typically along with weird "god-state" ideas.

And it is that path that muslim brotherhood follows and to extreme extent.

To state it very clearly: Islam and democracy do *not* exclude each other; Islam and democracy can very well go together.
One can very well be a good Muslim and at the same time peacefully live in a democratic society; maybe not a western style democratic society but then there is no universal rule stating that the western style democracy is the only acceptable or the right way.

And a final remark: if the zio-american regime falters the Muslims, I'm convinced, will live in peace and contribute to the well being on this planet. It always was and still is the zio-american terror regime abusing, politizising, and terrorizing the Muslim world.

I would anytime and without hesitation take off my shoes and bow before Allah when being invited to a mosque.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 5 2013 20:10 utc | 165

What does everyone make of Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei? As I understand it, he is supposed to be the head civilian honcho of the demonstrating masses, therefore according to taste:

--chief US/CIA/Western/Liberal asset

--exemplaris for intelligent behaviour from within the population rather than from above

No interviews I have seen. Have I missed any?

Posted by: ahji | Jul 5 2013 20:13 utc | 166

Mr Pragma

Then why dont you support the protesters on the streets now being shot down and suppressed? Not because they support pro-islamic societies?
You dont support protesters per se, you support based on your ideology, regardless of the democratic process in Egypt.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 20:19 utc | 167

Anonymous (167)

You are not in a position to judge me or to force your weirdo criteria and rules upon me.

And now, go f*ck yourself and stop pestering me.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 5 2013 20:29 utc | 168

Mr Pragma

These insulting replies just shows how correct I am about your views.
Thats the problem, you have secterian and ideological views keeping you from respecting rule of law and the democratic role in a society.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 5 2013 20:39 utc | 169

Mr.Pragma
Maybe you know AE better and he should speek for himself.

"of course, they prefer to stay in the shadow" - and you would be right - but you would at the same time have explained yourself why you can *not* talk about such involvement as a fact."

Let me share something with you: i talked to two persons one being at the coup against mossadeq and his son being part of the revolution in iran and both told me that after years they realised that something was going on in the shadows and that some acted strangely in retrospect.They themselves acted bona fide.Maybe this is the reason why people involved in the managment of the public opinion are called Spin Doctors.So better not waste time to search facts abaut the spin but rather accept the fact that people are cheated and we could be too.

"After so many years at the receiving end of the colonial way of thinking it looks quite strange to me when hearing that they don't understand it".

Understanding this,is difficult when you're not familiar with the mindset of individualism.And I think that a reason why even most liberal minded westerners think that the people in ME deserve their faith because they are not familiar with the mindset of collectivistic society's which went trough colonialism and suffer the results.
Those who understand are busy earning money and travelling,staying and hoping for a better future or leaving.

Posted by: Some1 | Jul 5 2013 22:45 utc | 170

I think there have been more than 500 posts total about the coup in Egypt. Nobody but supporters of Egypt's democratic process has even mentioned the elections for People's Assembly that are constitutionally required but cancelled by the Constitutional Court.

As the faction against the democratic process in Egypt was claiming to gather 22 million signatures, the only legal and objective test of support from the Egyptian population was being delayed permanently by others in that same faction.

If there was or is an anti-MB majority in Egypt, there is an appropriate way to express that majority that will result in no loss of life and minimal disruption of the national routine. The coup faction does not seem to believe there is an anti-MB majority in Egypt.

It is unconscionable to support a power-grab by the factions of the Egyptian that have the closest ties to the US taking power away from the officials who were elected by Egypt's voters and whose electoral majorities have not been, when they could have been, rescinded by those Egyptian voters.

Posted by: Arnold Evans | Jul 5 2013 23:38 utc | 171

@Anon "These insulting replies just shows how correct I am about your views."

I don't think I've ever come across anyone so deft at projecting their faults onto others. It's truly pathological.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 6 2013 0:45 utc | 172

guest77

Correct. But that often happens when people lack arguments. Then they start using insulting you. You seems to be one of those.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 6 2013 7:43 utc | 173

guest77 wrote: I'm missing something in your post. Sorry, I'm a little dense sometimes. I would say poverty and hunger has a bug part in the protests. Is that incorrect?

yes of course it correct, economic difficulties generally, in Egypt. I meant that my comparison with the US (where many are just as poor in a way and to eat go kill other poor people) would draw us into a long discussion of hunger and life-threatening poverty in different countries, causes and effects, reactions to it and so on. Morsi did not deliver as perhaps naively expected on this score. I also posted somewhere or other that the first word of the Revolution’s slogan was BREAD. Morsi has been unable to pay France’s latest wheat bill...

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 6 2013 14:25 utc | 174