Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 05, 2013

Egypt: Today's Developments

A big thanks to all the commentators in the recent Egypt threads. The discussion is lively and that is as it should be. Please hold off with ad hominems.

To continue, some points from today's after-the-coup news from Egypt.

There were attacks on army installations in the Sinai and some soldiers died there. This is pretty much off the radar in the news but will play a big role in the thinking and planing of the Egyptian military. Sinai is pretty wild in terms of Jihadi activities, there are lost of weapons there and is also of economic concern.

The Supreme Guide of the Brotherhood Badie was not, as was reported yesterday, incarcerated. Two other high MB leaders were released by the police. Former president Morsi is seemingly still in army custody.

The MB staged rallies all over Egypt today. There is little news of what is happening in the periphery even though that may, in the end, be more important than what is happening in Cairo. In Alexandria MB followers clashed with other demonstrators and also with the army. In upper Egypt an MB crowd tried to storm an orthodox church but was pushed off by army soldiers. In Cairo a demonstration was held at an army place where, allegedly, Morsi is held. The army told the protesters to stand off. Most of them did and MB guides tried to hold them back. But some tried to get to the concertina wire and were shot at. One to three where, reportedly, killed.

A quite big demonstration took place at the Rabaa mosque where the MB had a big stage and where many of the MB higher ups, including the supreme guide, held fierce speeches. From the TV pictures I saw I estimate the crowd there at 100-150,000 max. While the speakers called for peaceful protests they also added quite a bit of toxic sectarian poison. Not only against Copts but also against Al-Azhar, the Islamic high university, and against some Salafist groups. The general idea: The MB are the victims and everyone else is the enemy. The crowd got fired up. No one tried to calm it down.

In the evening groups of MB followers approached the bridges at Maspero towards Tahrir Square which led to a hefty clashes with anti-MB protesters who hold on to Tahrir. Neither the police nor the military intervened at this time. This is likely to get more ugly throughout the night.

The army seems, in general, to hold back and stay defensive. But throughout the day it made a lot of "show of force" noise by sending helicopters and jets into the sky over Cairo. Wasn't there some petroleum shortage? The army's message is: "We will let you protest but be reminded that it is us who have the heavy weapons."

My general impression is that the army is not seeking a fight and allows the MB followers to let off their steam. There is no sign of any harsh suppression so far but that may change anytime.

The silence of the "west" towards this military coup may well be the end of the neoconned "democracy promotion" campaigns we have seen over the last two decades. The hypocrisy is now so obviously stinking that any future mentioning of "democratic principles" in the Middle East by some sanctimonious "westerner" will be rightfully laughed off. The fall of the MB in Cairo has already a dampening effect on the "western" backed Syrian opposition.

Posted by b on July 5, 2013 at 19:29 UTC | Permalink

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@69 mccohen

Interesting, though I think the US would be insane to cut off access through the canal to China. It would only give impetus for a real move to build a new "Silk Road" linking China and Europe via Russia. This would solidify Eurasia and be the Unites States worst nightmare.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 6 2013 16:51 utc | 101

Again its not "islamic" and second you dont have to be a MB member as you seems to be think to live in Egypt. They are neither "fascist" as I just pointed out besides there is no "forcing". Thats just nonsense.


Its funny how you blame Musi on a murder of a priest. This is what I mean, its not logical. Besides, past days MB members/islamists and supporters have been arrested and killed. Where is your sympathy then? No. It just shows that you use secterian arguments yourself. The fact that you are surprised about violent aftermath shows that you dont know much about the region.

Again it doesnt matter what you think, dont you understand? You are free to believe whatever you want about HOW a state should be run, it is however insignificant for this dicussion.

So again do you care about the muslims, islamsits minorities in GB? I asked you before, apaprently you dont which shows your double standard.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 6 2013 16:56 utc | 102


I use the typical definition of Orientalism, just google the term.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 6 2013 16:58 utc | 103


"I still can't get why so many MoA-ites refuse to confront the reality of what has happened in Egypt. If this is some sort of twisted revenge fantasy over Syria, I am frankly disgusted that people many of whom held opinions I respected, could be so narrow minded & petty."

If you're trying to figure out why people at MOA think something, that's certainly one interesting avenue of investigation to take. But I don't think you can discount disgust over Morsi moves in Syria as "petty" and "narrow-minded" - not here or in Egypt.

That was a wildly dangerous position Morsi took - exacerbating tensions within Egypt and abroad, offering to send young Egyptians to commit unspeakable acts in Syria, repaying those debts to Qatar with the blood of Egyptian youth.

I don't think it's any mistake that protests began after this announcement. It just realized all the fears of many Egyptians that Morsi was heading a violent, sectarian regime.

"Painting the world into areas of black or white is the action of mental midgets."

I would suggest that "painting the world into black and white" are what the Morsi supporters are doing by turning this not into a complex expression of the Egyptian people as part of an ongoing revolution and extremely loose situation, but as a "foreign plot" where "Israel wins."

Less important:

"thrown aside the realities of a century of people's uprisings in favour of discredited theories"

I don't know, call me naive but I still think that what came out of the Russian and Cuban revolutions - anti-imperialism, the break down of the colonial systems, the reawakening of South America - is a hell of a lot better than the world we'd see if the Czar was never killed. Of course Stalin was a horror - would the son of Czar guided by some new Rasputin ruled easier? Would the Russian people have felt the pride that turned them into the tigers that (practically single-handedly) destroyed the Nazis?

Though it's still just humanity being humans - imperfect as hell to put it kindly - on the whole I think any mass uprising that puts into the average persons head "I have power" is a good thing. Egypt, I believe, eventually, will be the same.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 6 2013 17:25 utc | 104

ElBaradei to become Egyptian PM
BBC, Jul 6 2013

Leading liberal Egyptian politician Mohamed ElBaradei is to be named prime minister, the BBC understands. MENA state news agency says he is meeting interim President Adly Mahmud Mansour, three days after the army removed Islamist leader Mohammed Morsi amid growing nationwide unrest. The move in turn triggered violent unrest by Morsi supporters on Friday. ElBaradei leads an alliance of liberal and left-wing parties. More than 30 people died and hundreds were wounded in Friday's protests by Islamist supporters of the deposed president. Huge crowds have demonstrated again in Cairo on Saturday to demand his reinstatement. Meanwhile opponents of Morsi have called for demonstrations against the Muslim Brotherhood on Sunday. He is in detention, along with some senior Brotherhood figures.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 6 2013 17:25 utc | 105

That El'Baradai pretty much appoint himself the PM is just farce-like.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 6 2013 18:06 utc | 106

Egypt. The upcoming interim Gvmt. will have around 16-20 ministers, all technocrats. The head or no. 2 of the army will be in there (Defense), plus maybe? one or two other Army persons. Probably not for now a pure financier / bankster but you never know. Possible.

Then the labor of writing a new Constitution begins and who knows when any elections will be scheduled. Speedily, naturally, to preserve ‘democratic’ legitimacy in the eyes of the World.

The MB is ousted, as it has proved itself useless, both from the elite pov of control and by the ppl on the ground unhappy with Morsi’s rule, economy, etc., though a few MB (or F and J party) members will participate in the interim Gvmt., maybe, if the others are smart. Grand purges and rabid witch hunts are out of style, look bad, passé, best to meld and incorporate, control.

*Speculation* on my part.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 6 2013 18:07 utc | 107

Wulp, it looks like they've installed ElBaradei the Zionist/neoliberal stooge the US originally wanted to lead Egypt back in 2011.

More on ElBaradei - Zionist/American stooge.

Posted by: guest | Jul 6 2013 18:35 utc | 108

El Baradai was considered by the US to a fly in the ointment when it came to creating rationals for the illegal invasion of Iraq by Bush/Cheney and the NeoCons. He would not go along with their contention that Saddam had "Weapons of Mass Destruction," aka nukes. The Bush administrationn (Obama as well?) wanted him gone from the IAEA and they got their more compliant man in place. IIRC.

Beyond that, I do need to know more about his approach to governing -- does he fit in with Obama's Corporatism approach? He didn't garner much support when he tried to gain power after Mubarak was taken out.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 6 2013 20:23 utc | 109

Although Esam Al-Amin's Counterpunch article is interesting in a multi-facetted, post-mortem kind of way, it stops short of attempting to pick winners and losers; especially among the 'disinterested onlookers'.

F William Engdahl, July 4, 2013 has no such qualms:
Washington Islamist strategy in crisis as Morsi toppled

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 6 2013 20:26 utc | 110


I'm asking YOU to define it in terms, words, ideas, palabras. Don't be irresponsible and run away from the subject. Step up to the plate kid, express yourself. If I wanted to google it, I would've done so. YOU are the one accusing others of orientalism, which in my opinion is a passé term. A term unoriginal thinkers toss about to stifle progressive thoughts, to simply silence and shut down others they don't like or agree with.
Speak up my son, let your voice be heard (again).

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 6 2013 22:03 utc | 111


Again your prejudice keeps you from acting rationally which you even admit when you are saying its a "passe" term and used to "silence" people. Again I use the common definition of Orientalism you are free to google that. Surely you are not the kind of people that reject terms like "racism", "islamohpobia", "antisemtism" also? Seems to be common by people that cheer Le Pen and ethnically pure states.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 6 2013 22:28 utc | 112

@Anonymous | Jul 6, 2013 12:56:06 PM | 102

Ok kid, you’re clearly disjointed and have a hang-up, probably acne and/or hormone change, you will grow out of it and once you lived a little, calm down.
You just are not comprehending anything yet profess to be a regional ‘insider’ and a protector of the faith against the “infidel’ of sorts. All you are emulating is that you’re a devout Morsi supporter that looks like you have been indoctrinated into a fascist Islamic cult, and forcing your sentiment, views and values while expecting all to agree - Where do you live again?

I am not surprised by sectarian violence at all, I did however point out that non-Muslim entity was a target and just because he was not ‘Islamic’, a very valid factor. It is a related outcome and a fact unlike your venting and rants that support and attempt to vindicate that Mursi is a stand up leader loved by all - that is absurd and shows how little you understand the region, specifically Egypt, it’s people and the current situation.

I have no sympathy for sectarian acts, and will use a sectarian argument if valid, I never stated I did not or would not, you just ‘forcing’ context now to justify being ultimately wrong while playing the ‘You’re not one of us’ card - grow-up.

It must matter what I think or you would not be so focused on me, possibly it flicks your switch and you get off on it, but that is an issue you need to take up with your therapist or you are just a naive and argumentative teen who has a chip on her shoulder, possibly with a crush on Morsi - are you loved up? Then again you could be in the ‘Sisterhood’ and just doing your duty, one never knows?

Re: Do I care for Muslims, Islamists minorities in GB? A very broad question, and one that was just anal, but since you pressed again - I have Muslim friends (Many) and I care for my friends, but I don’t know ‘all Muslims, Islamist minorities’, and I am sure I won’t like ‘all’ as much as I don’t like ‘all’ people from other denominations/ethnic or cultural backgrounds either. Your question is just daft and again throwing mud, and being absolutely moronic by painting a picture in hate splatters by numbers.

BTW, double standards; would asking a question, then giving your own answer, much like you did not be considered as such? As for double standards again; I could also ask you for you to reply to questions I presented and you have evaded – like, “ are you Egyptian, and are you in Egypt?” But I know the answer without needing to answer it; again I am making a point.

Secondly your definition of ‘Orentilisim’ is not the root of the meaning or is specific to that region, If you read my last reply, you would have picked up on that. Lastly the majority of Egypt is on the African Continent if you have not noticed, but let’s not get caught in semantics and the nitty-gritty now.

Must dash, UFC live, the Spider is fighting, a minority fighter, being Brazilian and Black, but the one I respect the most in terms of talent and persona, strange that!

Well, 'I' will be following the progression on the 'New' post, ElBaradie... this post has done its day and has been intresting. I will applogiize, more so to b, as he did state:Please hold off with ad hominems".

Posted by: kev | Jul 7 2013 0:49 utc | 113

reply to guest77 | Jul 6, 2013 12:51:39 PM | 101

Posted by: mcohen | Jul 7 2013 2:33 utc | 114

Concerning Anonymous

Frankly, I see that it's completely senseless to discuss with Anonymous.

Actually I'm pretty convinced by now that he is not looking for discussion but simply for attention by spoiling any reasonable discussion.

The problem is that whenever you answer him you're actually feeding his disturbed need.

It seems that simply ignoring him is the best way (next to b banning him).

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 7 2013 3:52 utc | 115

Your a royal pain, but just like Marine Le Pen, you have the right to free speech. You are free to say the dumbest and stupidest things just like her. And you know what? I defend that right. Go ahead, honey indulge. Keep using that right. You've been doing a GREAT job so far.
I'm living in South beach right now & my boss is an awesome Palestinian dude, whose dad lives in Alexandria. We get to talk about the goings on in Egypt. He says that his father has told him that the atmosphere has really cleared up there and that finally it seems the people can get back to business. Yet, there is still an air of trepidation.

Orientalism, it's a term (at least in my mind) whose useful lifespan has currently come and gone. It's passé, like the word "honkey"
Or "gosh", I can't currently think of any other passé word right now. However with the globalization, the many numbers of us who have stayed for extended periods of time in the "orient". Interacted with the culture(s), people, learned a bit of the language, even though "orientals" us, it does not make. We can still speak with some authority/knowledge about the issues without some jerk, or idiot trying to stifle the free-exchange of ideas with inaccurate charges.
Impeaching someone or denigrating them, before you've had a chance to hear them out is not only the highest form of stupidity it's also the apex of intolerance and tyranny of of one individual over the other.
Lets learn to listen and analyze first.

But just like before, I know all if this will go in one ear and flow out the other and I'll be right where I started.

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 7 2013 6:56 utc | 116

That is brilliant, that is one of the routes I think the Phoenicians used to transport their cargo if not whole ships from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean. Since their was no Suez back then. It's brilliant because it removes Egypt from the equation. It's bad for the Egyptians, but the Israelis get to further take advantage of the situation and paint the Arabs in a continuous negative light.
"See, they are only interested in violence, they are animals"
"They only want to kill each other"
Therefore Egypt will lose a portion of its business unless it puts it's house in order and does some lobbying to kill this harmful plan.
Thanks again, Mcohen. Interesting stuff.

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 7 2013 7:07 utc | 117

I used Wikipedia, nation-states can encompass ethnic or cultural entities. So keep trying, you may get it right.
But it's ok baby, I'm gonna keep schooling ya.

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 7 2013 7:10 utc | 118

El Baradei "farce" like self appointment has been put on hold.
Even though I don't think he ever "self appointed" himself...hahaha...
Anonympus, your the gift that keeps on giving! Hooray for free speech once again.
Points lost for reading comprehension though.

El Baradei appointment put on hold

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 7 2013 7:18 utc | 119


Interesting link. Thanks.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 7 2013 7:19 utc | 120


The Chinese would have to be insane to do such a thing. The Palestinians would freak out presumably.

It may be way cheaper than a pure land route, but wouldn't offer the chance to develop Xinjiang with a rail link. Plus aren't they planing to do something similar (very vaguely similar) linking Gwadar and Central Asia and Europe via Iran?

I hope they just soak the Israelis for a few billions to be honest. What I wouldn't pay to see those negotiations.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 7 2013 7:27 utc | 121


Please keep a respectful tone, you are obviously mad.

Again you personally are free to have any view on orientalism, antisemitism, racism you want, apparently you deny those terms. However that has nothing to do with reality of with this dicussion.

I think you should study Elbaradei and what he have done the past 2 years after the revolution. Then you would know what I mean.

Mr Pragma

Using insults just shows you lack arguments. Please be more respectful and keep on topic.


You seems mad since I caught you being a secterian yourself. Protecting one group against another.

I didnt ask you how many muslims and islamists you knew (the line 'I know many muslims' are such a classic too and shows where you come from) I asked you if you staunchly care about that minority in GB, you dont and thats my point, you are making double standards.

By the way I also called people "son" "kid" when I was 15 and last time I saw anyone using the term "infidel" when was I came by a transcript of Gert Vilders. You like him perhaps? You can do better.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 7 2013 8:53 utc | 122

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