Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 3, 2013
Egypt: The 2013 Military Coup

Update:

Egypt's news agency: Sheikh of Al Azhar, head of Coptic church and opposition leader Elbaradei to announce the political roadmap soon.

Original post:

Though not yet officially confirmed some kind of military coup is taken place in Egypt right now.

The military has taken over the state television studios but has yet to issue any statement. Allegedly a travel ban was issued against the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood and president Morsi is said to have been moved to the Ministry of Defense. While the opposition to Morsi is somewhat partying in the very well filled Tahrir Square pro-MB demonstrators are protesting around the University and some other places. The military has deployed infantry carriers and soldiers in riot control outfit throughout Cairo and other cities.

Throughout the day negotiations were held between the various parties. At a point the military had invited all parties to a talk and all but the Brotherhood's FDJ came. There was no news release about the meeting nor is there yet any release about the coup.

The ministry of the interior, which controls the police, had announced that it would cooperate with the army. Several ministers and governors have resigned. It seems that the Islamist are now up against everyone else.

The military had earlier announced that it does not want to stay in power but wants to reset the process towards a democratic, civilian ruled state with a new constitution, a new parliament and new presidential elections.

It is not only the economic situation and the seemingly fumbling of Morsi's government that brought many, many people into the streets to move against him, the cultural element may be just as big. A significant part of Egyptians do not want to live in a country that is under the strict Islamic rule the Muslim Brotherhood strives to implement.

This is where both sides part: Does winning the election give the Muslim Brotherhood a right to change the society into what they want or is winning the election a much smaller mandate to rule but within the confines of a common non-majoritarian society?

The Muslim Brotherhood view: Because they won the majority (of the minority that voted) they are allowed to rule and implement the state and society as they see fit. The current coup, based on significant public support, is to them an assault on a right they had gained by being elected. I recommend to read the above link to understand their thinking. Here just this one ominous excerpt that seems to announce violence:

You have heard much during the past 30 months about ikhwan excluding all others. I will not try to convince you otherwise today. Perhaps there will come a day when honest academics have the courage to examine the record.

Today only one thing matters. In this day and age no military coup can succeed in the face of sizeable popular force without considerable bloodshed. Who among you is ready to shoulder that blame?

Here is Issandr al-Amrani on the different understandings of "democracy" in Egypt:

The dilemma facing Egypt is that it's a limited, electoral democracy whereas many want it to be a republic. The difference being that in a republic the individual has guarantees in the context of a socio-political compact, whereas in a democracy the minority has little if any voice. Egypt is formally a republic, and has been since 1956, over several iterations of a compact […]. It might have turned into a more democratic republic after 2011 except the new social compact was left to elections. Because elections are not very accurate indicators of national sentiment (because of variety in electoral systems, the importance of electoral strategy, etc.) and the voting public has still mostly few lasting allegiances in post-revolution Egypt, this was always a bad idea. A lot of people have changed their mind.

However Egypt comes out of this crisis, hopefully a republican pact — hopefully based around a bill of rights — will form a more stable base for its political system.

The big question now is if the Muslim Brotherhood will adjust to the new situation and accept that it will have to give the voters another try. Or will it not accept, forgo the democratic path and turn to violence and terror to achive its aims.

Life for many Egyptians is already bad enough without additional violence, terror campaigns or civil war. Let us hope that Morsi and his friends understand that and can hold back their followers urge to gain full powers. Those al-Qaeda banners in pro-Morsi demonstrations (video) do not point to a better future. If he wants to rule Morsi should get rid of them.

Comments

Well at least the Israelis are pissing themselves.
From Friday Lunch Club:

A competent leader, likely not Morsi, will soon come to see that he has no choice but to make a virtue of necessity and export the one commodity that Egypt has in abundance—violence. So, why not bind the warring, immature, and grandiose Egyptian factions together in a pact against Israel, the country’s sole transcendent object of loathing? Indeed, it’s not entirely clear why Egypt’s venomous strains of anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic sentiment have not yet hit fever pitch. Yes, Morsi doesn’t want to get the White House angry. And there’s also the obvious fact that Egyptians are too divided against themselves right now to be unified against anyone else. But that can’t last for long, or else Egypt will implode.
So, here are the facts that Egyptians and Western reporters alike would rather not face: There is simply no way that today’s Egypt can feed its own people. So, what’s left? A short war today—precipitated by a border incident in Sinai, or a missile gone awry in the Gaza Strip, and concluded before the military runs out of the ammunition that Washington will surely not resupply—will reunify the country and earn Egypt money from an international community eager to broker peace. Taking up arms against Israel will also return Egypt to its former place of prominence in an Arab world that is adrift in a sea of blood.

The good news is that if a real revolutionary current comes out of the downfall of Mubarak and then Morsi. Israel will be in some serious trouble. Of course the bad news is that at present it looks like the SCAF will rule for an interim period. The current head of the SCAF, Abdul Khalil Al Sisi, spent time in the US studying in the US Army War College, no wonder he has spoken to Chuck Hagel twice in the last few days.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jul 3 2013 18:09 utc | 1

the Morsi advisor ends his ‘frightening statement’ by saying:

Many have seen fit in these last months to lecture us on how democracy is more than just the ballot box. That may indeed be true. But what is definitely true is that there is no democracy without the ballot box.

This is an extraordinarily narrow, shallow, uneducated, primitive, external concept of ‘democracy’. It confuses the real thing, what the word means, rule by the people, with a complex and artificial system of representative government via periodic elections, without choosing to reflect on the fact that elections are won by the parties (which means, in fact, the capitalist elite coalitions) prepared to spend most on cadre recruitment and high-pressure advertising. ‘The people’ are reduced to what was in the 1950s (more frankly than now) referred to as ‘the admass’. It isn’t rule by the people, obviously, but rule in the name of the people by concealed interests represented by PR men and professional actors. If anybody wants to read the NYT op-ed to which Issandr al-Amrani refers (the link is missing in his article at The Arabist), it’s here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/opinion/in-egypt-democrats-vs-liberals.html
I’m not happy with the way any of these terms are used in contemporary US and US-influenced discourse, including that from academics. ‘Democracy’ is not a matter of respect for ‘minorities’, especially religious ones, but an ideal which would require complete transformation of an ‘electorate’ into a nation capable of self-government; and liberalism is not democratic, in principle, because it is capitalist, ie plutocratic.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 3 2013 18:19 utc | 2

I don’t like Morsi or Ikhwan AT ALL. On the contrary I despise them. And I am the first to acknowledge that winning an election in which the majority (or at least some half of population) has abstained from voting with a slim majority does not make the “winners” the democratic representatives of the nation.
However, this is bad, REALLY BAD. It is truly tragic that a nation which sees in itself the power to mobilize and come to the streets in their millions, does not see in itself the power to be its own voice and take MB on and has to “resort” to military to save the day!
IMHO, there is nothing to celebrate about this. Those who celebrate should ask themselves, if today army sees within its authority to bring Morsi (as despicable as he may be) down, what is there to stop them from putting their own man into power or to stop them from doing another coup and bring down the man which today’s “cheering crowds” may elect (that is *if* they are allowed to vote for a candidate of their own).
It is my opinion that until the Egyptians gain the consciousness that
it is they and only they that can and must change the state structure in Egypt, they will be doomed to be ruled by rulers who themselves are ruled from outside.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jul 3 2013 18:38 utc | 3

Very bad and show that the egyptian opposition and military is not fit for democracy nor constitutional regime since army created a coup.
New elections the opposition and military say, yes and this time Mursi, nor MB nor any affiliaties (meaning cutting off any islamist parties) will be allowed to participate. Egypt will return to the mubarak era thats sure.
And yes of course the US have been in regular contact with their puppet in the military past days.
http://presstv.com/usdetail/312094.html

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 3 2013 18:39 utc | 4

I was watching Al-Jazeera not long ago and it seems they’re in shock!!! I mean, how could the Egyptians be so ungrateful for all the help Al-Jazeera’s given them..
The Egyptian revolution started off as a genuine movement until that Qatari based stattion hijacked it and pushed their favourites(MB) to take power. Now the Egyptians are shaking off Qatar’s imposed influence on them tonight. Egypt deserves the respect they had in the Arab world. Little peep-squeak petrol states like Qatar should focus on doing what they know best – exporting terrorism and selling cheap gas the Uncle Scam and her tag-alongs…

Posted by: Zico | Jul 3 2013 18:45 utc | 5

The Muslim Brotherhood won six elections and did not do “what they want” they passed a specific constitution that called for future elections and term limits for the President. You’ve read the constitution and you know it does not grant the President unlimited or irreversible powers.
That’s like saying Barack Obama thinks because he won the Presidency he can “do what he wants”. No. He can assume the office of president and take the powers and responsibilities outlined in the US constitution.
Morsi was never in any way a dictator. The MB did absolutely nothing that cannot be reversed if the secularists win an election by the same margin.
This narrative “Because they won the majority (of the minority that voted) they are allowed to rule and implement the state and society as they see fit.” Is again hysterical nonsense that plays into the hands, I can only guess unwittingly, of the US which very openly opposes democracy for all non-Jews in Israel’s region.

Posted by: Arnold Evans | Jul 3 2013 18:47 utc | 6

Anonymous @ 4
You don’t think the US had anything to do with the MB coming to power??? Have you forgotten the many trips and meetings that happened between the MB and US reps both in Egypt and US befoer Morsi was selected?? Initially, Ahmed Foutouh was supposed to run for president, until the US presented their man, Morsi..
People are not blind as you’d imagine, y’know???

Posted by: Zico | Jul 3 2013 18:47 utc | 7

One side of this dispute has won elections and the other has not. This is not some kind of difficult matter to weigh.
The side that cannot win elections has, clearly with US support, assistance, funds, organization and coordination taken power from the side that can.
It is sad and even disgusting to see a power grab like this supported by people who should know better.

Posted by: Arnold Evans | Jul 3 2013 18:52 utc | 8

Now, instead of a constitution written by delegates of the Egyptian people, it will get one written in the US embassy. Unbelievable to see support for that.

Posted by: Arnold Evans | Jul 3 2013 18:54 utc | 9

zico
US role for the past 60 years have been to keep islamists from power.
US didnt “brought MB” to power thats nonsense and its a cover up to deflect from the situation going on now where US backed military take illegal power along with the opposition, trying to oust islamists parties from power.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 3 2013 18:56 utc | 10

@ 10 “US role for the past 60 years have been to keep islamists from power.”
What gave you that idea? US happily worked with radical islamists for many decades, including Qatar and Saudis. Created Al Qaeda (and working with them again in Libya and Syria).
Speaking of MB, their relationships are also dating decades, and US heavily influence them either directly or through puppet Qatar. If you havent forgot, US hand-picked MB people as new “representatives of Syrian people”, starting with “leader” SHito and ending with MB dominated NCSROF.

Posted by: Harry | Jul 3 2013 19:09 utc | 11

General Sisi, the army head, is just announcing the coup.
With him are the Coptic pope and the head of Al-Azhar(!) and some officers. That means Sisi has some kind of official Al-Azahr Fatwa to justify the coup. That’s not looking good for the MB. Can they call for violence against Al-Asahr?
Military will not do politics. Chief Justice of Supreme Court will have presidential powers. Technocrat prime minister and government (El Baradei I guess). Reconciliation. Soon new elections.
Sisi is regarded as anti-American in the U.S. When he studied (with the military) in the U.S. his master thesis argued that the U.S. should leave the Middle East. On the other side he was later responsible to coordinate intelligence with Israel.
LOOUUUDD cheers in Tahrir, Fireworks. The second revolution succeeded for now.

Posted by: b | Jul 3 2013 19:14 utc | 12

Harry
Thats two different things, working with (qa and sa) vs fending off everywhere else where they may occur. Just check US foreign policy for that region.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 3 2013 19:18 utc | 13

EGyptian economy will still be a basketcase no matter who is elected next. So it’s hard to see how any leader can unite egypt without starting a war against Israel.

Posted by: skybox | Jul 3 2013 19:22 utc | 14

Live TV:
Al-Azahr chief speaks: He endorses the process.
Coptic pope speaks: No one will be exempted from process.
That is a big, big point for all the Muslim word. The main seat of Muslim judgement interpretation Al-Azahr, rejects the MB!
Erdogan will have very bad dreams tonight.

Posted by: b | Jul 3 2013 19:23 utc | 15

To day I had a long chat with a colleague who has “islamist leanings”, as he looked gloomy and I was expressing my view, i. e. that there will never be modernity in Egypt without having religion becoming a private matter.
He does not support Morsi but was still very gloomy as the dream of “shari’a islamiyya” was vanishing for good. The points he made are interesting as an overview of the “little fairy land” the people who vote islamist live in.
” – The media lie and are all anti-Morsi: the pictures of the crowd wwas a mix of pictures of the pro- and anti-, the pro- were 6 or 7 millions”
” – The lynching of the Shiites in a village of Giza governorate was because they were having the engagement of 4 people who were going to do a “temporary wedding” and a zafaf to celebrate it. Because it happened in a popular neighborhood, the locals could not accept that (… as if the Egyptian villagers were not practicing weddings ‘of convenance’!). Even the brother of this Shiite leader, Shahata, has publicly disavowed him.” (i. e. the murders were justified).
” – All the judges in Egypt are corrupt and they act on order of the remnants of the former system.”
” – The US and Germany have religion inscribed in their constitution.” When I asked for some precisions, the two answers I received is “a Muslim cannnot ever become president in the US” and ” – Merkel’s party is named Christian democrats.”
” – Egypt has had the best wheat harvest in its history last year but the corrupt people of the former regime are buying it from poor peasants and throw it into the Nile. The same for petrol and solar.”
” – About the other case of lynching two teenagers in the Delta and filming it, they must have been real thieves. It is not possible that the crowd killed some people by mistake.”

Posted by: Mina | Jul 3 2013 19:27 utc | 16

but could al-azhar have been rigged?
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/mubarak-appoints-a-new-chief-of-al-azhar

Posted by: skybox | Jul 3 2013 19:27 utc | 17

b @ 15,
I think Erdogan’s already got the message..Just today, he cancelled the Gezi park project. This after he insisted he won’t back down from his position. If he isn’t grapping his pants by now, he should. He’ll be wondering what the army might be thinking of him.
I had a lot of hope for the MB when they came on the scene in the region. But they turned out to be far far worse than those they replaced.. I lost any hope in them after what they did in Syria. They’re finished for good.
The kings, prices etc of the Qatar will be taking cover from now on. They engineered the MB ascension to power with the full backing of the US..Things will never be the same again.
Interesting times 🙂

Posted by: Zico | Jul 3 2013 19:31 utc | 18

17) that’s the problem with making religion political.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 3 2013 19:36 utc | 19

zico
It wasnt Erdogan but the court who rejected it.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 3 2013 19:40 utc | 20

Not a bad day, for sure!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23161972
“Rouhani urges end to meddling in Iranians’ private lives”
And in Egypt, the Islamist channels went off air. No more call for murders against Shiites and gays; no more jokes about raped women “who could not be raped unless they wanted it because the inner thighs have the strongest muscles in the body”; no more hateful statements against the Copts; no more “visions” of shaykhs who claim they’ve seen Morsi and the Prophet Mohammed together in a dream…
21:25 The Brotherhood’s FJP just tweeted “history will tell that the first decision of the military coup, in which the advocates of democracy participated, is putting off air all opposition channels,” a reference to the Brotherhood’s channel and other Islamist owned channels being blacked out after El-Sisi’s anno
21:22 At the press conference where El-Sisi spoke a few moments ago, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, Ahmed El-Tayyeb, is speaking, followed by Coptic Orthodox Patriarch Tawadros II.
21:20 It looks like several other Islamist-run channels including Hafez and Al-Nas are off air.
21:12 It looks like Misr 25, the Egyptian Brotherhood-run television channel, is off air.
21:10 The speech is over. There are massive celebrations going on at anti-Morsi rallies in Tahrir Square and Ittihadiya presidential palace in Cairo.
21:06 El-Sisi continues:
Our roadmap consists of: 1- Suspending the constitution.
2-Holding early presidential elections. The High Constitutional Court head will be in charge of the country until then.
3-Forming a national coalition government.
4-Forming a committee to look into amendments of the constitution.
Taking measures to include the Egyptian youth in the decision-making process.
The armed forces call on the great Egyptian people to abstain from violence and resort to peaceful protest.
20:55 Another statement by an opposition group, clearly anticipating an announcement that meets their demands.
The 30 June Coordinating Committee, a coalition of anti-Morsi groups, releases a statement refusing any foreign pressures exerted on the armed forces to pull it away from the popular movement and portray its stance as a coup. It also rejects attempts by the Muslim Brotherhood and its allies to abort the “popular revolution” which went to the streets in the millions.
The statement declared its rejection of what it describes as the US “standing by the Muslim Brotherhood for its own interests.” (…)
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/75594/Egypt/Politics-/Live-updates-Egypt-tense-as-army-deadline-passes,-.aspx

Posted by: Mina | Jul 3 2013 19:43 utc | 21

@Zico Just today, he cancelled the Gezi park project.
No, a court canceled it.

The pro-Morsi demonstration is quite a rage. The military has it somewhat surrounded. The Islamist TV channels have been shut down.
Army preemptively trying to contain the (to be expected) violence.

Posted by: b | Jul 3 2013 19:44 utc | 22

14) It would be stupid to attack Israel, no resources there just housing projects. It would make much more economic sense to liberate Libya and Sudan from Islamist militias, I then suggest crossing the Red Sea to Saudi Arabia …

Posted by: somebody | Jul 3 2013 19:47 utc | 23

Anonymous @ 20
Is the Turkish court independent???

Posted by: Zico | Jul 3 2013 19:48 utc | 24

Then we have the pro-mubarak head of supreme court leading the country. Not surprising.
http://presstv.com/detail/2013/07/03/312116/egypts-army-names-caretaker-leader/

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 3 2013 19:48 utc | 25

wow –
Al-Nour Salafist party boss speaks at same place like Sisi.
Endorses the coup!
MB is very isolated now. Salafists and Al-Azhar against them plus the liberals an the military that is very dramatic! Their main Islamic argument has been pulled from them with Salafists and Al-Azahr against them.
Joke going around:
“Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak tried to get rid of the Brotherhood. Only Morsi succeeded.”

Posted by: b | Jul 3 2013 19:51 utc | 26

Zico
Yes of course. Its not dependent on what view Erdogan think about it.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 3 2013 19:53 utc | 27

@ B

The second revolution succeeded for now.

Guess they had better start planning a third revolution to topple the military.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jul 3 2013 19:54 utc | 28

I wonder if all those weapons supplied by US, saudi, qatar to syrian rebels will now find their way into egypt.

Posted by: skybox | Jul 3 2013 19:58 utc | 29

Of course, Nour and the salafist are Saudi backed and obviously the Saudi Absolutists are happy getting right of the MB nuisance which they didn’t fully control. The wild-card of Qatar international meddling is also finished.
As the Nour leaders are saying the MB got what they got on themselves. My hope is that Nour won’t get the benefit of getting the MB islamist electorate as is their wish/plan and that political islamism will take a beating for a time or until they become less radicalized and sectarian on their aims.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jul 3 2013 20:05 utc | 30

“Topple the military” ? If you read the Tamarod statements in the last few days, things have been prepared quietly and in coordination. Even the nomination of Baradei as “spokesperson” was announced already 2 days ago (maybe already the 30th June, can’t recall). Everybody has given repeated warning to Morsi and the FJP.
You seem to forget that France/UK/Qatar have installed a Lybian mess along Egypt’s borders. This has literaly thrown back the people into the arms of the army, no matter what the SCAF did. The Egyptians know that with neighbours such as Israel and the NATO mercenaries in Lybia, they will need their army.
Tunisia’s opposition is now planning to copy the Tamarod movement. It would be healthy to come back to a balance of power, and that the Islamists stop using solely the language of djihad and martyrdom…
Now the two next interesting moves will be:
1) Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s reactions. They will disappoint a lot of Islamists around the world I believe.
2) And will the MB call for boycotting the elections or will some of them who have enjoyed the comfort of sleeping in the parliament want to stay in politics?

Posted by: Mina | Jul 3 2013 20:06 utc | 31

29) direct route is Libya, great pretext to occupy.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 3 2013 20:07 utc | 32

And with Libya Egypt would solve her current big economic problem: plenty of oil and gas which is being ‘wasted’ on armed gangs and neo-colonial oil companies.
But unless the MB or some islamist groups gets really crazy I don’t see this scenario playing well. The Western colonizers are happy with the current Libya mess.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jul 3 2013 20:17 utc | 33

Mina
So egyptians will be forbidden to vote for islamist parties in the coming election?
Expats always try to deny people admiration of religion in these states.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 3 2013 20:18 utc | 34

So it’s very likely syria that undid Morsi
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/morsi-role-at-syria-rally-seen-as-tipping-point-for-egypt-army-1.1450612

Posted by: skybox | Jul 3 2013 20:21 utc | 35

Morsi’s domestic excesses exceed anything in the U.S. Nevertheless, some perspective is helpful regarding the fact that in each country a minority of the electorate elected a president who then exercised “executive privilege” to do pretty much what he wanted to do, which in the US included expanding an already hopeless foreign war. Morsi didn’t do that.
elections:
Egypt 2012: 51% of 43%
US 2012: 51% of 59%
In the US, ninety-three million eligible people did not vote in the last presidential. That is more than the total population of the top three populous states (CA, TX & NY). It is also more than the population of each of forty-six individual states. Yet we have a “decider” making important decisions regarding Afghanistan, Libya, Syria etc. Morsi didn’t do that.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 3 2013 20:28 utc | 36

33) We are talking on a Napoleon like post revolutionary scenario in Egypt with everybody trying to remain in power by sending the street abroad with a general.
It would solve Libya’s manpower and lack of state problems. I don’t think the US could do anything about it. A destabilized 80 Million next to Israel would be too much to chew.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 3 2013 20:35 utc | 37

The difference with the US is that there isn’t a big majority/minority marching on the streets. The Occupy movement was small compared with the masses of protesters in Egypt this days.
And the army (meaning the leadership of course) is pretty happy with the current situation. They get lot of money, pretty toys, promotions and well-paid jobs on retirement. Much like in Egypt.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jul 3 2013 20:45 utc | 38

The growing unrest prompted U.S. President Barack Obama’s administration to urge Morsy to call early elections, while warning the Egyptian military that it risked losing U.S. aid if it carried out a coup, senior administration officials told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html
take the source with a grain of salt, but if loosing U.S. aid is actually true, it gives me more hope for a better future for Egypt.

Posted by: too many wtf | Jul 3 2013 20:54 utc | 39

Too many wtf #39
Yes get rid of the military commanders and the get rid of the judges. Both legacies of pro-mubarak regime.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 3 2013 20:56 utc | 40

39) So Mursi does not call early elections, the military stages a coup and both sides accuse each other of being supported by the US. This is comedy.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 3 2013 21:07 utc | 41

Egypt can join Syria with the aid of Hezbollah and Hamas with the backing of Iran in launching a war against Israel.

Posted by: skybox | Jul 3 2013 21:12 utc | 42

@ThePaper #38
Right you are — Americans don’t know how to protest. I’ve been is some pretty sickly anti-war protests in the U.S., and I’ve also been in Mexico City when whole boulevards and squares were taken over by enthusiastic highly-organized, with huge banners, people over a much lesser issue.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 3 2013 21:13 utc | 43

There has to be a connection between the retirement of the old emir of Qatar in favour of his son, an event apparently urged on him by the US, and the catastrophe of the MB in Egypt. So, the fact that the Salafis are supporting the army against the MBs in Egypt (if this is the case), suggests that the Sauds are happy to see the MBs in trouble, and possibly that their over-reaching under Morsi was something encouraged by the old emir of Qatar. I wonder how this squares with the parallel forces in Syria. There, the Salafis are still the red hot radicals, and still being armed to the teeth. And in Lebanon also, the salafi sheikh Assir recently staged an abortive uprising (abortive because premature, too small, too local, but there are hundreds like him, they just weren’t coordinated, as they may eventually become).

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 3 2013 21:16 utc | 44

@ 42 Unlikely. Unless they want a big hole in the Aswan Dam.

Posted by: dh | Jul 3 2013 21:23 utc | 45

45)
It could be a scenario in a destabilized Egypt with non state actors. It would not be in the interest of the Egyptian people or the Egyptian state. It would not make sense either. Israel can be defeated by political means, just like South Africa was.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 3 2013 21:41 utc | 46

From the office of the Assistant:
“And the message will resonate throughout the Muslim World loud and clear: democracy is not for Muslims.”
Exactly, render unto Caesar etc. Someone wants to get cosy with the Most High, let him stick to his prayer mat and set a good example, while we Skeptics deal with All the Stuff Down Here.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 3 2013 21:47 utc | 47

“US role for the past 60 years have been to keep islamists from power.”
US role for the past 60 years has been to keep Reds from power. FTFY

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 3 2013 21:55 utc | 48

As long as Israel is Egypt’s neighbour; Egyptians will never have a viable democracy. Let’s make it clear everywhere: the U.S. owns the most powerful branch of Egyptian governance: the military. Egyptian military is almost fully funded and equipped by U.S. funds. Egyptian generals are trained in the U.S. and the U.S. has provided training on top of military hardware to the Egyptian military.
Democracy in Egypt will always be a joke as long as the military can make the final call fully funded by U.S. dollars. So when Obama and his minions claim they don’t take sides either for Morsi’s side or the opposition, this is totally false because they fail to mention the third party, THE EGYPTIAN MILITARY, the most powerful branch of Egyptian governance held by the tail by the U.S. The U.S. is on the Egyptian military’s side and always will be because this is how the U.S. and Israel will forever control Egyptians and their country unless the Egyptian people stand up against U.S. and Israeli intervention and meddling and BRIBING of the Egyptian Military.

Posted by: kalithea | Jul 3 2013 22:01 utc | 49

“Does winning the election give the Muslim Brotherhood a right to change the society into what they want or is winning the election a much smaller mandate to rule but within the confines of a common non-majoritarian society?”
Indeed, a lofty questions from our host. Strangely, b doesn’t give a ghost of a shit about democratic accountability in Syria. He certainly didn’t care about democratic accountability in Iraq, or Libya.
Somehow, b’s master-analysis morphed from Down With US Empire!!! into a universal concern for crushing reactionary “islamists” and champion for the martial untidiness of The Clash of Civiizations. But you certainly don’t need democracy for that bit of nasty business. You just need the services of an insane dictator. Really, hell, all you need is the U.S. Army.
I welcome b’s intellectual transformation. I might not agree with it, but at least he seems to have found a groove.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 3 2013 22:11 utc | 50

@skybox #42 (and other posts):
Man, you’re just itching to blow shit up, aren’t you?

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Jul 3 2013 22:15 utc | 51

lol, Slowthrob, you still got it! Whatever it is.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 3 2013 22:18 utc | 52

“but an ideal which would require complete transformation of an ‘electorate’ into a nation capable of self-government…”
AKA Dictatorship of the Proletariat
…(well, someone had to say it)

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 3 2013 22:23 utc | 53

@42 The only way for the region to be free is for all countries, parties and people in the region to turn their eyes to the real culprit and antagonist in the region which is without a doubt: ISRAEL.
Israel is at the root of the chaos and destruction in Syria. Israel is the party with the most to gain from Muslims killing each other. Israeli operatives have been in Syria sowing mayhem and training the rebel terrorists since the beginning of the civil unrest. Israeli operatives train Jundallah in Iran. Israeli operatives trained the PKK in Turkey. Israel influences U.S. policy over Egypt so that the Egyptian Military is bribed to enforce a treaty that keeps the Palestinians in bondage forever.
Israel influenced the U.S. to topple Saddam because he was funding families of Palestinian resistance fighters. Israel is in bed with the Saudi Monarchs and Bahrain Monarchy which hold their power through tyranny over the Shia majority.
So in essence, all the chaos, corruption, bloodshed and tyranny is a theater run by Israel to weaken all parties and people in the region by bribing tyranny and sowing perpetual division and death.

Posted by: kalithea | Jul 3 2013 22:26 utc | 54

‘Throughout the day negotiations were held between the various parties. At a point the military had invited all parties to a talk and all but the Brotherhood’s FDJ came. There was no news release about the meeting nor is there yet any release about the coup. ‘
thats almost surreal: a military seeking civil leaders to parlay!

Posted by: brian | Jul 3 2013 22:27 utc | 55

Egypt can join Syria with the aid of Hezbollah and Hamas with the backing of Iran in launching a war against Israel.
Posted by: skybox | Jul 3, 2013 5:12:16 PM | 42
zionist troll?

Posted by: brian | Jul 3 2013 22:28 utc | 56

@42, yep, cause and effect right under all noses. Funny the message from the Office of the Assistant, and a very important one it was too, linked above, didn’t mention it.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 3 2013 22:33 utc | 57

oops, 57 was meant for 54; for 42, you’re right. If the ME would only unite, Israel would be wiped from the map, or the pages of time, or history of ghettoes… Oh, where is today’s Saladin!

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 3 2013 22:39 utc | 58

TIME Swampland

The military ouster of Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi Wednesday places the Obama Administration in a difficult situation: If President Obama accepts that a coup has taken place, U.S. law will force him to cut off American military and economic aid to one of America’s closest Middle East allies.
Under federal law, U.S. non-humanitarian aid must be cut off to “the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup d’état or decree or, after the date of enactment of this Act, a coup d’e´tat or decree in which the military plays a decisive role.” The developments in Egypt appear on their face to fit the bill precisely. In the past, the U.S. has cut off aid to Mauritania, Mali, Madagascar and Pakistan following coups.
“The law is pretty clear,” said Jon Alterman, a Center for Strategic and International Studies scholar, who formerly worked for the policy planning staff at the U.S. State Department. “This is going to be an issue.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 3 2013 22:56 utc | 59

But it wasn’t really a coup, according to the Egyptian Ambassador to the United States.

Foreign Policy: Was this a coup?
Mohamed Tawfik: It’s not a coup because the military did not take power. The military did not initiate it, it was a popular uprising. The military stepped in in order to avoid violence. At no point has the military come back to rule Egypt. That’s not happening, that’s not going to happen. We should remember that right after the fall of [Former Egyptian President Hosni] Mubarak, the military were asked by all factions of Egypt to rule the country for the transitional period, and they voluntarily left power, which is a clear indication that they are not interested in a political role.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 3 2013 23:04 utc | 60

Initially cheered by palestinians Morsi proved to be a dissapointment
http://electronicintifada.net/content/egypts-muslim-brotherhood-has-reneged-promises-palestine/12301
but ive seen on FB that tel aviv(pro-Mubarak) may have been cheeing the coup against Morsi
This is getting picked up by the western press:
President al-Assad in interview to al-Thawra newspaper: what is happening in Egypt is fall of so-called “Political Islam”
Jul 04, 2013
Damascus, (SANA) – President Bashar al-Assad said that what is happening in Egypt is the fall of so-called “political Islam”, adding that those who use religion for political interests or for the interests of one group will fall anywhere in the world.
In an interview to al-Thawra newspaper, President al-Assad said, “You cannot deceive everyone all the time, particularly the Egyptian people who have a civilization dating back to thousands of years and clear pan-Arab nationalist thought.”
The President added that after a year the image has become clear for the Egyptian people and the performance of the Muslim Brotherhood helped them uncover the lies made by the Brotherhood in the beginning of the popular revolution in Egypt.”
President al-Assad said the experiment of the Muslim Brotherhood’s rule failed even before it started because this kind of rule is not consistent with the nature of the people and the project of the brotherhood is hypocritical that actually aims at creating sedition in the Arab world.
The President stressed that sedition cannot last in societies that possess knowledge, adding “this is why from the beginning I said their project is a failure before it began and this is what made the Muslim Brotherhood’s experiment fall quickly because it is wrong, and what is built on a wrong principle will definitely fall.”
F.Allafi/H.Sabbagh
http://sana.sy/eng/21/2013/07/04/490658.htm

Posted by: brian | Jul 3 2013 23:07 utc | 61

“15 Photos From the Tahrir Square Protests You’ll Never See In Legacy Media.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-02/guest-post-egyptians-love-us-our-freedom

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 3 2013 23:35 utc | 62

Karma Mole sounds angry…with good reason!


A presidency is NOT a carte blanche, and we are not supposed to wait 3 years longer when the president has broken every, every, every single promise he’s made. Presidential Team? Nothing. Revolutionary Demands? Jack shit. Justice for Martyrs? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Wages? Get real. Social Justice? Right. Healthcare, forget it. Basic honesty? Zilch. He basically assraped the laws he swore (3 times) to uphold the second he started coming up with completely self-satisfying constitutional declarations, Morsi proved that whether or not he was ‘democratically elected’, there was certainly nothing ‘democratic’ about him.

Again: DEMOCRACY > VOTING

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Jul 4 2013 0:03 utc | 63

Well as much as this coup is questionable we should all recognize a few positive elements. First MB has been delivered a major blow. This will weaken Erdogan in Turkey and diminish the influence of Qatar. This has to be good news for Assad. That $3 billion the old king of Qatar sent to his MB militias in Syria probably bought a lot of pain for the Syrians. We can hope his son will show more sense (And then again, maybe not, the son is reputed to be close to one of fanatical MB mullahs).
This will probably increase Saudi influence throughout the region with their Salafi agents. I would not expect that to be a big problem for Egypt but who knows. Maybe the two Islamists factions — Salafi and MB — will realize they should enter into an alliance since neither commands a majority. That, of course, assumes they are rational actors and with religious fanatics that is not necessarily a good assumption.
Finally is it good for the Palestinians? This might be a wash. The Egyptian military is responsible for keeping the gaza border closed and has given permission for Mossad to kidnap Palestinians crossing the Sinai. After all they are bankrolled by US imperialism. One consequence of this we might see Hamas and Hezbollah kiss and make up now that Qatar has been hurt. Wonder what Meshall is going to do now.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 4 2013 0:30 utc | 64

“Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak tried to get rid of the Brotherhood. Only Morsi succeeded”
Yes – all these regime-change protesters should be wearing Mubarak masks. They are clearly part of the same tradition that favors autocracy to a democracy in which the Muslim Brotherhood is elected.
Tragic that they made it only a year in before the opposition decided to take a big, steaming dump on the glorious new democratic Egypt. A year is not long enough to accurately judge how effective a leader Morsi really is. I hear these mealy-mouthed commentators trying to justify Morsi’s overthrow and all I hear are the same sort of run-of-the-mill criticisms one would hear against any incumbent official in western country.
This move has given the MB militants the righteous cause they need to declare jihad on whatever regimes are to succeed. Who knows how long such unrest could plague Egypt.
These “do-over” revolutionaries couldn’t wait another three years to try to do this the right way and not make a mockery of the democracy they were willing to die for in the anti-Mubarak revolution? Three lousy years would have given Morsi the time to truly prove whether or not he is the fascist the Cairo protestocracy claims.
It appears democracy is not suited to the Egyptian temperament. The mob and the Junta are the inheritors of the revolution.

Posted by: JBradley | Jul 4 2013 0:36 utc | 65

“Three lousy years would have given Morsi the time to truly prove whether or not he is the fascist the Cairo protestocracy claims.”
Or, the mob already has proof. Oh, and protestocracy isn’t a word.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 4 2013 0:48 utc | 66

See usage of protestocracy here. It’s the MOA word of the day. I hope to use it in the future, thanks JBradley.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 4 2013 1:20 utc | 67

@b;

“Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak tried to get rid of the Brotherhood. Only Morsi succeeded.”

Honestly I am not sure if MB has been eliminated, but even if it is, I don’t see the positive side to it.
Do you think that the mentality behind the support for MB has changed?
In Turkey I saw many parties rise and fall (assuming that MB has fallen) without any real change. One right wing party would fall of favour and would be replaced by another right wing or even more extreme right wing party.
And if indeed ‘MB’ is gone, why close down their media and stop them from participating in the next elections?

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jul 4 2013 1:48 utc | 68

The Egyptian police have orders to arrest 300 leaders and members of Mohamed Morsi’s Muslim Brotherhood.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 4 2013 2:24 utc | 69

pirouz_2 says: Honestly I am not sure if MB has been eliminated, but even if it is, I don’t see the positive side to it.
As far as Egypt is concerned I have to agree with you that it might not be good. Unfortunately one way or the other this is current reality. I do not have any insight into how Egyptian politics are going to develop. Given today’s reality we should rejoice that internationally the MB have experienced a severe loss. That should be good. Qatar’s influence in the ME has been hurt. It seems only logical that their influence in the Syrian civil war has been diminished. Given that the MB in Turkey and Qatar have been supporting that war, anything that undermines their influence in Syria has to be considered good news.
Maybe Egypt will descend into MB and Salafi inspired civil war but at least Syria should be spared more pain.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 4 2013 3:41 utc | 70

@67, lol, I stand corrected!

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 4 2013 4:24 utc | 71

I’ll agree with Pirouz_2 @ comment 68.
The MB may be down, for now, but they are certainly not out. They’ll milk this coup for a long time, in Egypt, but also further north: Turkey, Syria, etc. The increased influence of Saudi-Arabia and it’s particular brand of Islamism won’t make things better (ahem, I’m probably way too polite here) for the average Egyptian.
Has anybody seen more information on the connections between the SCAF, the replacement president and SA? The Angry Arab has a short tidbit. There is probably more.
Time for the Egyptian people to start work on a third revolution.

Posted by: Philippe | Jul 4 2013 4:28 utc | 72

A majoritarian (and only majoritarian) constitution is like rape; and yes the brave Egyptians who made the revolution happen, in the first place, were not tilting toward the enforced conformity of Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood. This is certainly not the end for which people died in Tahrir Square. It shouldn’t be forgotten that the election game foreclosed more options than it opened; and when the people were left with no real choice for president, the way the cards are dealt most everywhere now, it gets to an autocratic outcome. Without the right to be different, and reasonable protections for minority belief and tradition, there is no democracy that amounts to much. There is no peace without justice for all citizens, now or ever.
But to be fair, it’s not the way to bet to welcome a military coup in Egypt. Few among the liberating throng in Tahrir were happy with the way the military was running things, between the fall of Mubarak, and the result they got,–whatever the hell they end up with– under the Brotherhood’s rule. There must be a balance in the social contract for democracy to have a future in people’s lives, with equality under the law. Egypt’s military has predominated, and has served as the basic government there, for a long time now; and they still act behind the scenes, as per usual. The high-ranking officers go to the head of the line for the spoils. Egypt’s Generals are well-placed, just as juntas always are. Look for the entailing bribes.
I think those who suspect Washington’s hand in this coup may not be off the mark here.
A military coup to cut a swath through the devils, to bring police powers down on the heads of the Morsi faction, with the thumping power of a pogrom, is a double-edged sword; and is only a cause for joy to people who lack imagination. History teaches, and warns us of what comes from feeding this beast.

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 4 2013 4:34 utc | 73

Democracy and temperament.
“And your responses to President Morsi’s speech?”
1. A shoe
2. A crazed stroke-inducing rant.
Apoplectic Anti-President Morsi OUTRAGE!!!!
Apologies for linking to a MEMRI video.(MEMRI is the Israeli outfit that translates Arab language media to make Arabs look bad to English speakers.)

Posted by: JBradley | Jul 4 2013 4:55 utc | 74

Don’t know if this has been mentioned before, but the IRI recently had several of its operatives convicted and sentenced to prison by Morsi’s government.
The IRI testified before Congress just two weeks ago.
Interesting timeline, that, considering the coup seems to have come together in just the last couple of months.
http://www.iri.org/news-events-press-center/news/iri-president-testifies-situation-egypt-0

Posted by: China_Hand2 | Jul 4 2013 5:14 utc | 75

With what has occured (The Coup) and this – UAE sentences ‘coup plotters’ to jail – http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/02/uae-sentences-coup-plotters-jail; it looks like a much larger and orginized drive.
“Rights groups have accused the UAE of widespread violations – The authorities have rejected the claims and have made further arrests targeting groups suspected of links to Islamist networks such as Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, UAE officials said they were planning another high-profile trial against 30 Egyptian and UAE suspects for alleged coup plots linked to Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood.”

Posted by: kev | Jul 4 2013 5:38 utc | 76

It makes sense that the Egyptian army was alarmed by the increasingly radical behavior of Morsi in the last few weeks: calling for jihad on syria, encourage a mob to lynch shia cleric, encourage attack on copts, appoint an Al-qaeda affiliate as governor.

Posted by: skybox | Jul 4 2013 6:01 utc | 77

skybox
he didnt call for “jihad”, nor have he encouraged “a mbo” nor encourage attacks on copts, nor any “al qaeda”-affiliated governor.
Why are you making up this? Its no easy to check.
Army worked against him, just like they have done for the past 60 years or so.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 4 2013 6:32 utc | 78

Washington’s support can be fickle, and they might have used Morsi for a time, until he started wandering outside the prescribed lines. I have seen the signs, written in English, from news photos in Cairo denouncing Morsi as a puppet of Obama. I am worried that the way things are set up, they will find another pawn in their game. The euphoria could be misplaced, and danger comes in ushering in the military and its rule by decree.
These new neolibs and neocons seem fascinated by all the uses gained from chaos and the disintegration of societies. Maybe Morsi was their man; but if he was, they will just arrange for another.

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 4 2013 6:35 utc | 79

skybox
Yes?
He didnt even mention Jihad and Gamaa Islamiya group isnt affiliated with “al qaeda”. Also since the 90s it took a more peaceful approach so you are really grasping here.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 4 2013 7:10 utc | 81

via angry arab

The Saudi connection: the new Egyptian regime
Sisi served in Saudi Arabia as military attache.
And `Adli Mansur served as a legal consultant for the Saudi government for years.
Now you can understand this.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 4 2013 7:14 utc | 82

Saudi King Abdullah
“In the name of the people of Saudi Arabia and on my behalf, we congratulate your leadership of Egypt in this critical period of its history.
We pray for God to help you bear the responsibility laid upon you to achieve the ambitions of our brotherly people of Egypt.”
Says it all.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 4 2013 7:43 utc | 83

79/80 sounds like Morsy was running out of political options and tried to coopt more extremist forces.
80) I do not know about you, but I would not support any party that killed civilians for ideological reasons even if it was 20 years ago. I would also not support any party whose ideology excludes people for their religious beliefs (or for their gender).
There was no Egyptian revolution, the power remained where it was – with the army – if they decided to use it or not.
The army did not want Mubarak’s son, they had no use for Morsy, if he could not unite the people behind him. As is, he seems to have united almost everybody against him.
The main issues in Egypt nobody seems to talk about or address are the legal human rights of prisoners, torture, illegal arrests, freedom of the press (that includes responsibility of the media not to incite sectarianism), the techniques of oppression.
It is possible that the secret society mentality of the Muslim Brotherhood and their ideology does not allow for integrating them into a political democratic process, they still have rights. And of course they remain part of Egypt.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 4 2013 7:44 utc | 84

#82 Pat Bateman
The Saudi reaction is interesting indeed. I’d speculate that the egyptian coup somewhat following the “resignation” of the qatari emir is not just coincidential. So it seems like the qataris have taken some setbacks?

Whatever the reasons for this coup might be, it’ll be interesting to see which way egypt is heading. Taking that many people to the streets (though the figures seem quite exaggerated to me) is an achievement in itself. I wonder if or how these people will benefit in the short / mid / long term.

Posted by: peter radiator | Jul 4 2013 8:05 utc | 85

‘With him are the Coptic pope and the head of Al-Azhar(!) and some officers. ‘
the presence of a COPT is significant!

Posted by: brian | Jul 4 2013 8:20 utc | 86

anyone seen any sign of OTPOR in the latest ‘egyptian ‘revolution’?

Posted by: brian | Jul 4 2013 8:23 utc | 87

@84 radiator
Regarding the transition in Qatar, I have found no satisfactory response to the question ‘Why?’
To pass on the mantle to a new, younger generation, with fresh ideas and enthusiasm? Do me a favour. What gives?
Whether the impending collapse of the Egyptian Government and Qatar’s association with cannibals in Syria had anything to do with it remains to be seen. Drawing a line in the sand, preemptively, to severe the ties of the old Qatari regime with its capitulating regional partners?
Qatar has spent billions in Syria and Egypt, with little to show for it. Will they now go for broke in Syria to salvage something from the “Arab Spring” or cut their losses?
It’ll be interesting to see how the fall of the Brotherhood impacts on the war in Syria, if at all.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 4 2013 8:35 utc | 88

somebody
Good catch but people here will still not accept what power foreign powers as US, Saudi have on this.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 4 2013 9:46 utc | 89

88) Seems obvious the US tried a Muslim Brotherhood strategy via Qatar, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Syria and Turkey. I guess the turning point was the embassy attack in Benghazi and presumably France fighting in Mali against Qatar supported Islamist groups.
Colonialist strategy will support different groups against each other to remain in control, so this was not really a failure in the terms of US/Western planners.
To see where the sympathies of main stream media lie is quite a clue. The US/West has stopped to support the Muslim Brotherhood.
Qatar is a family business. Much safer to remain in power and not stick their neck out. The Emir had aquired personal enmity. Much better to be represented by someone else.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 4 2013 9:47 utc | 90

Actually it is quite ironic how secular Iran and Hezbollah suddenly have become, and how openly Assad talks of the “death of political Islam” depite his alliances.
This from Hezbollah’s Al Manar.
Their use of Assad photographs is very tongue in cheek. Compare the front page photo to the article photo :-))

Posted by: somebody | Jul 4 2013 9:55 utc | 91

Almanar’s political Islam is very different from Ikhwani nutty Salafism.

Posted by: Amar | Jul 4 2013 10:06 utc | 92

Hate to post market related references again, as they seem to go uncommented (War is economics) , but the US markets rose on the Egyptian outcome, thus shows a clear connect.

Posted by: kev | Jul 4 2013 10:06 utc | 93

@ somebody 91 “Actually it is quite ironic how secular Iran and Hezbollah suddenly have become, and how openly Assad talks of the “death of political Islam” depite his alliances.”
Respect to various religions and ethnicities doesnt mean secular. Islamic Iran, Syria (and Hezbollah) were always like that, nothing changed.
Compare to radical islamists (Qatar, Saudis, MB, etc) and zio-christianists, now their politics are as inhumane as it gets. Or anything fanaticism based, including atheists regimes. For some reason some people think fanaticism is exclusively for religions, which is 100% false. Plenty of atheistic or secular leaders were as fanatic and brutal as it gets.

Posted by: Harry | Jul 4 2013 10:27 utc | 94

92, 94 :-))
Sounds like re-branding to me. Similar to Turkey’s Abdullah Gül re-branding as liberal.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 4 2013 10:54 utc | 95

@Harry, is atheism bad in context to what is occurring? – In fact is it fanatical in the real world (Today) or just an argumentative stance when needed by others referencing ‘religious arguments’ and conflicts ?
I Just don’t get your diversion here, at all!
Fact is, religion segregates, where faith unites, the rest are inconsequential as they can’t be played at that time.

Posted by: kev | Jul 4 2013 10:58 utc | 96

It seems that in the Hezbollah and Iran case the religious influence is rarely visible, while in the salafi camp its the opposite, much more obvious.
Although one shouldnt generalize all sunnis as some seems to do here, the problem isnt salafi the problem is jihadism.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 4 2013 11:08 utc | 97

somebody @ 91
Shias don’t go about beheading or blowing up people they don’t like…I guess that much is clear by now since the conflict in Syria begun. The “political Islam” Assad’s talking about is political “Sunnah”. Political Sunnah has an absolutist/nihilist view on society that it can/will never be accepted in any progressive society, even by Sunnis themselves. Of course, then you have the Wahhabi/Takfiri/Salafi nexus that have also hijacked Sunni Islam for their dubious agenda. How many Sunni scholars have come out to strongly condemn all the daily Shia bombings in Damascus or Baghdad by Takfiri/Wahhabi groups???
They all seem to be quiet, which in my book, is a nod of acceptance…Religious minorities, secular etc etc will automatically gravitate towards Shias in the region given the ordeal they’ve been through at the hands of those Sunni-Takfiri jihadis.
This is just the natural progression of things…

Posted by: Zico | Jul 4 2013 11:38 utc | 98

98)
Shias don’t go about beheading or blowing up people they don’t like
I don’t think that is correct, but of course as mentioned above, any fanatic does things like that. It is not a Shia or Sunni thing. So maybe we just should not connect it to religion but to politics. Iran has its share of Shariah induced medieval punishment options like amputations, stoning and public executions. It also punishes for adultery which goes against the essence of personal freedom and privacy.
Capital punishment rates are high and there is evidence of torture
So on a scale where I would prefer to work and live from Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia to Iran I would opt for none of them or Turkey.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 4 2013 12:07 utc | 99

Hate to post market related references again, as they seem to go uncommented (War is economics) , but the US markets rose on the Egyptian outcome, thus shows a clear connect.
Posted by: kev | Jul 4, 2013 6:06:36 AM | 93
Of course they did. For there is money to be made.
Arms to sell, rebuilding contracts..
Nice show in Egypt, fireworks and laser lights
wow!
Made for the big screen and a western audience accustomed to splashy endings via tv and cinematics.
Did that obvious dramatic flourish fly over the heads of the commenters here?
Looks like it.
In other words…. it feels contrived because it is.
As I said at my place “Cue the civil war”
As to the myth of elections = democracy and the right to govern all
Pure bullshit
Democracy = two wolves and one lamb deciding what is on the menu
Elections = democracy= elites having the people on the menu
Elections create the illusion of democracy for government tyranny
If elections really meant a dam thing, you and I wouldn’t be able to vote. It would be outlawed

Posted by: Penny | Jul 4 2013 12:08 utc | 100