99) Like the Muslim Brotherhood was with the military before ...

This here from November 2012 - under Morsy's watch - did Mursy try to find a political agreement with liberals or did he rely on the police and the army to protect him?

According to witnesses, heavily armed police units confronted the demonstrators on Qasr el-Aini, one of Cairo's main streets, pushing them back to the main square. Leading into the night, police continued to fire rubber bullets and tear gas at the protesters, who have been chanting “down with the Morsi regime.”

Meanwhile the mob marched on the Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice office, chanting anti-Brotherhood slogans as they too were confronted by security forces.

The state media, citing the Interior Ministry, has reported that a number of officers have also been injured as protesters threw Molotov cocktails and rocks near the ministry building at soldiers while trying to break through security barricades. At least 19 people have been detained.

More mass protests across the country have been called for Friday. Egyptians are calling for the removal of the government, and more liberal representation in the Islamist-led Constituent Assembly, which was set up to write the country’s new constitution.

Liberal activists also accused the Brotherhood of affiliating with the former military elite when police killed scores of anti-government protesters in November last year on Mohammad Mahmoud Street, next to Tahrir Square.

The Brotherhood’s Mohamed Morsi became the country’s first elected civilian president in June amid a a growing disparity between the country’s Islamists and liberal secularists.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 8:51 utc | 101

@Anon, sorry cant reply # 98 as the questions in #97 has a greater percentage, 66.66*% of the content directed @ 'somebody' and that would not be very democratic if I did with a mere 33.33*% and being the piggy in the middle.

So I can only add to the question (Statement) as Morsi worked with Bibi, likewise Al Qaida; the trio plotting against Assad, so ‘If it walks like a Duck…’. In that, is the Muslim Brotherhood worse as a government or a terrorist group? My reply; 50/50: 1. It succeeded in being both, 2. A)as a Government it failed, and. B) we are still assessing the latter… I am sure you agree.

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 8:59 utc | 102

somebody

MB "was with the military before"? What does that even mean? Read some history about Egypt and the relations between MB and the military because you lack knowledge about this issue.

Slothep

Yes there seems to be massive contradictions by some people here. When hamas ended its support for Assad the coup-lovers of today, began to smear hamas, just like they smear MB today. They are hypocrites.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 9:00 utc | 103

Having started and trained security companies and staff and seen what can occur when security entities go rouge ... Thoughts? Posted by: kev | Jul 8, 2013 10:51:38 PM | 86

Kev, if you have worked in this field, surely you know that the use of the word 'rouge' instead of 'rogue' is nothing but a running media joke that started with a misprint - like 'teh' for 'the'?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 9 2013 9:06 utc | 104

kev

Yes exaclty my point, you sounds like Netanyahu and in fact Mubarak too.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 9:14 utc | 105

@Rowan, slight dyslexia, do it often. Gotten past the 'rogue' cheeks syndrome. Even bypasses spell checker, dam words! Good thing I am not a journalist or run an blog site, I would be a jobless or a failed aspiring writer. But you got the point at least...

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 9:35 utc | 106

103

Of course it was. you should read up history yourself - the Muslim Brothers seem to be doomed to repeat it

From the British ex-empire who should know

n 1952, colonial rule came to an end following a military coup d'etat led by a group of young officers calling themselves the Free Officers.

The Ikhwan played a supporting role - Anwar al-Sadat, who became president in 1970, was once the Free Officers' liaison with them - and initially co-operated with the new government, but relations soon soured.

After a failed attempt to assassinate President Gamal Abdul Nasser in 1954, the Ikhwan were blamed, banned, and thousands of members imprisoned and tortured. The group continued, however, to grow underground.

...

During the 1980s, the Ikhwan attempted to rejoin the political mainstream.

Successive leaders formed alliances with the Wafd party in 1984, and with the Labour and Liberal parties in 1987, becoming the main opposition force in Egypt. In 2000, the Ikhwan won 17 seats in the lower house of parliament, the People's Assembly.

....

It is very simple. If the Brotherhood considers alliances as temporary tools to achieve a goal and continuously turn on allies as soon as they find it expedient, they will be left holding the bag in the end.

Personally, I find it pretty disgusting to cry for international intervention now.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 9:37 utc | 107

somebody

Surely you dont compare the sitution in the 50s with today? Besides of course the egyptians in whole worked against the military regime, and who were then ditched for 60 years up until 2011?

And why would it be a problem if MB work with other parties? Isnt that what you critics now blame them for? You seems confused.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 9:49 utc | 108

also from the archives of the British empire who should know

The Brotherhood had called for jihad against Jews in the 1936–9 Arab Revolt in Palestine, and had sent volunteers there after an appeal from the mufti; it had also been assisted by German officers in constructing its military wing. The organisation regarded the British as imperialist oppressors in Egypt, and agitated against the British military occupation of the country, especially after the Palestine rebellion. During the early years of the Second World War, British strategy towards the Brotherhood in Egypt mainly involved attempts to suppress it. Yet at this time the Brotherhood, which was allied to the political right, also enjoyed the patronage of the pro-British Egyptian monarchy, which had begun to fund the Brotherhood in 1940. King Farouk saw the Brothers as a useful counter to the power of the major political party in the country – the secular, nationalist Wafd Party – and the communists. A British intelligence report of 1942 noted that ‘the Palace had begun to find the Ikhwan useful and has thrown its aegis over them.’ During this time, many Islamic societies in Egypt were sponsored by the authorities to oppose rivals or enhance the interests of the British, the palace or other influential groups.

The first known direct contact between British officials and the Brotherhood came in 1941, at a time when British intelligence regarded the organisation’s mass following and sabotage plans against the British as ‘the most serious danger to public security’ in Egypt. That year al-Banna had been jailed by the Egyptian authorities acting under British pressure, but it was on his release later the same year that the British made contact with the Brotherhood. According to some accounts, British officials offered to aid the organisation, to ‘purchase’ its support. Theories abound as to whether al-Banna took up or rejected the offer of British support, but considering the relative quiet of the Brotherhood for some time after this period, it is possible that British aid was accepted.

By 1942 Britain had definitely begun to finance the Brotherhood. On 18 May British embassy officials held a meeting with Egyptian Prime Minister Amin Osman Pacha, in which relations with the Muslim Brotherhood were discussed and a number of points were agreed. One was that ‘subsidies from the Wafd [Party] to the Ikhwani el Muslimin [Muslim Brotherhood] would be discreetly paid by the [Egyptian] government and they would require some financial assistance in this matter from the [British] Embassy.’ In addition, the Egyptian government ‘would introduce reliable agents into the Ikhwani to keep a close watch on activities and would let us [the British embassy] have the information obtained from such agents. We, for our part, would keep the government in touch with information obtained from British sources.’

So the Muslim Brotherhood has a history of offering itself as a tool and switching sides when expedient. With the king, against the king, with the British, against the British, with the army, against the army, with liberal opposition parties, against liberal opposition parties.

Do you think an organization like that deserves to be followed or offered martyrdom for? For what goal?

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 9:52 utc | 109

somebody

I dont think you know what you are saying anymore and thats why you refuse to apprach what people here tell you. You try to smear MB like people smear the hamas movement when they switched side. Thats hypocritical of you.

Again military have been from the start being against the MB, again check the past 60 years.

Besides here is the military you support allied, Israel urging US not to defund them.

'Israel warns US against Egypt aid cut'
http://presstv.com/detail/2013/07/09/312977/israel-warns-us-against-egypt-aid-cut/

Useful idiots.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 10:01 utc | 110

@Anonymous | Jul 9, 2013 6:01:09 AM | 110, You just don’t understand Geopolitics at all. Why frustrate yourself? I would get it if you were full blooded Egyptian or even live there, but you’re not, and don’t! You also have a huge distain for Syria, and Assad; again you are not Syrian or live there. You don’t work in the region, or do you have any business affected by the regions instability. So this leads to one conclusion - you have been converted, you have a radical Islamic boyfriend, your first love, and to prove your devotion, you have taken on the cause and you’re in the Sisterhood, right?

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 10:16 utc | 111

kev

You mad scottish? You shouldnt be mad at me for calling out the hypocrisy by yourself.
Your islamophobia is getting tiresome by the way.

You are the kind of people that would probably support Saddam Hussein due your secterian hatred.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 10:23 utc | 112

@Anon - Hunger and hardship comes and goes, but dignity, once lost never returns - Yes I hate Sectarianism, pointless, so destructive. Members of a religious or political group may believe that their own salvation, or objectives, but it requires aggressively seeking converts from other groups, but if that group that is under economic, legal or political pressure (MB) it will kill or attack members of another group which it regards as responsible for its own decline - So how’s that ‘Sisterhood’ thing going for you?

In God’s Country (Scotland) we do have issues, but not as heinous or near the level of the conflicts say between Nationalists and Unionists in Northern Ireland. Here is a link so you can educate yourself - http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/06/8109/0 no car bombs today BTW.

Data from the Scottish Crime and Justice Survey show that "There has been no increase in the proportion of victims who believe that the crime they experienced was related to race, religion or sectarianism. This suggests that the increase in the numbers of racial and religiously aggravated crimes that had been reported to COPFS in recent years was simply due to changes in reporting and recording practice”

We tend to die from a bad diet more than anything, and one day hope to become an independent sovereign state once again and doing it with dignity.

In that, not only have we giving much to humanity in way of invention, character, but once a year most of the world sings with us in joy and happiness; "Auld Lang Syne" Rabbie.

All together now (Big yin, ‘BillyBoy’, join in the crack)

Shid ald akwentans bee firgot,
an nivir brocht ti mynd
Shid ald akwentans bee firgot,
an ald lang syn
Fir ald lang syn, ma jo,
fir ald lang syn,
wil tak a cup o kyndnes yet,
fir ald lang syn.
An sheerly yil bee yur pynt-staup
an sheerly al bee myn
An will tak a cup o kyndnes yet,
fir ald lang syn,
We twa hay rin aboot the braes,
an pood the gowans fyn;
Bit weev wandert monae a weery fet,
sin ald lang syn.
We twa hay pedilt in the burn,
fray mornin sun til dyn;
But seas between us bred hay roard
sin ald lang syn
An thers a han, my trustee feer!
an gees a han o thyn!
And we’ll tak a richt‡ gude-willie-waucht‡,
fir ald lang syn.

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 11:51 utc | 113

Somebody (#92)

"Popular mandate for crackdown" means majority of people will support the crackdown on of military on dissidents. I don't see any evidence that the majority of Egyptians support a crackdown on MB let alone all dissidents. Not supporting MB with more than %25 (ie. MB representing only 25% of the society) is very different from supporting a crackdown on them.
Also where was this "love for military" when people forced SCAF hand down the power and go to elections in 2012?

It is really simple: if the life standards of people deteriorate and the neoliberal agenda is further pushed for, people will turn actively against the army and whoever happens to be in power in a matter of one year. And guess what? Just as SCAF could make a return and foist itself on people after one year of misery under MB, it could very well be the case that MB will make a return after a year of misery under SCAF and the secular ElBaradei.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jul 9 2013 13:18 utc | 114

Hamas supported Syria? Stupid me. I thought it was Syria that supported Hamas.

Posted by: hilmi hakim | Jul 9 2013 13:25 utc | 115

Bevin thanks for the response

When nothing has changed, IMO, there is nothing to be happy about.
It's plain and simple.
I would personally be overjoyed if I felt this rebrand meant a better life for the Egyptians. But it doesn't.

"The manner, Penny, in which both Mubarak and Morsi were forced out, by mass popular uprisings, gives many people including me satisfaction"

Clearly you believe this concept of popular uprising will effect change
Yet nothing changes. Tunisia didn't change for the better.
Egypt didn't change for the better. Libya didn't change for the better.
In fact in every country, all situations have worsened
Again, to take satisfaction from this makes no sense

I have said it a multitude of times and I will continue to say this
this type of NGO fomented mass uprising will change nothing
It hasn't yet
It is not going to
It is not designed to
The system through which these uprisings are created is a corrupt system, created by the elites.
The anger of the people is real. The discontent. All real
But, it is directed.

Mr ZB

"For the first time in human history almost all of humanity is politically activated, politically conscious and politically interactive... The resulting global political activism is generating a surge in the quest for personal dignity, cultural respect and economic opportunity in a world painfully scarred by memories of centuries-long alien colonial or imperial domination... The worldwide yearning for human dignity is the central challenge inherent in the phenomenon of global political awakening... That awakening is socially massive and politically radicalizing... The nearly universal access to radio, television and increasingly the Internet is creating a community of shared perceptions and envy that can be galvanized and channeled by demagogic political or religious passions.

ZB get's what you and others who share your 'happiness' don't
That this global awakening which can be a driver for change can be but must be galvanized and channeled.
Which is exactly what happened

Change will only be affected when persons that share the point of view you expound stop believing in the illusory system set out by corrupt leadership
And then stop participating in the corrupt illusory system.
Which means individually, we have to take responsibility for ourselves and stop looking to leaders to 'lead us'
As we can easily see/witness/observe the leaders we allow to lead us
have buried us.
That will be the ONLY way things will change for the better
And when that starts to happen I will be truly happy
Until then I find no joy in the suffering of vast swathes of the human family. No matter what illegitimate leadership is in place.

Posted by: Penny | Jul 9 2013 13:25 utc | 116

@110

Of course the US or Israel keeping up the military aid is practically meaningless as a gauge of "support" for the coup.

The US gets more out of the deal or they wouldn't do it. China or Russia or Iran (or a combination thereof) would love a shot at taking over the spot as the supplier to the Egyptian Army. The US will never let that happen.

So once again, like your constant aggression, it's meaningless.

As for an "attack on political Islam", I am about as worried about that as I might be about an attack on political Christianity or the Tea Party. That's just my own personal feelings of course. I don't think that's the general target at all - unless you think the Nour Party would support such an attack.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 9 2013 13:31 utc | 117

114) You are describing a best case scenario, chances are that people get turned against each other. That is usually the way ruling classes solve their problems.

People were not forced to go to Tahrir to celebrate the "coup".

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 13:45 utc | 118

"Until then I find no joy in the suffering of vast swathes of the human family. No matter what illegitimate leadership is in place."

No one is finding joy in suffering, and its real irritating you would say that. Your solution, if not to even attempt a change and fail, is to simply let the suffering continue unabated. Fatalism.

You clearly have no idea of the joy that comes from people being in the streets and commanding - or at least affecting - their destiny. Failure or success, there is more happiness in those moments of self-expression and working together (organizing food shipments, medical treatment, even sanitation) than most people find in decades of living.

Have you ever been out to protest Penny? Have you ever helped to organize a group to achieve a goal? Ever done anything other than write YOUR thoughts and drive people over to "your place"? People working together for equal benefit is its own reward. It's real happiness Penny.

You're not in Egypt, but you are quick to dismiss this as "NGO" protests, designed to fail. You must know better than all those millions of Egyptians then, correct? They're all "dupes" and if probably they'd read your blog, they'd know a thing or two, right? Yes yes Penny, very good.

The point of ZBigs statement is to me exactly what we are seeing in Egypt. The MB and the military - both representing the elite - keep trying to guide the real expressions of consciousness and anger by using Islam (the MB Quran's) or dumb "patriotism" (the helicopters with the flags) instead of letting it reach the real goal of the people: social change, socialism (maybe with another name), and a fair deal.

Yes, the protests have been co-opted by the military. Do you not think that those millions know this? Do you not think they're planning the next fight? No, right, because all power comes form the top. From NGOs, from ZBig, from the MB. No independent action is possible in your world. The relationship of Winston and Julie in 1984 - completely meaningless because at the end they both submit to Big Brother? No Penny. All the meaning is right there.

"It's plain and simple."

Indeed. All too.

Since you're so keen on giving people parameters for responding, please avoid being completely butt-hurt and weeping in your response to this. It will be a first. Oh, and I don't care at all that you didn't address it to me either. It's a public forum. I'm taking "independent action".

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 9 2013 13:56 utc | 119

guest77: who comments, without reading the words actually stated, better adhominems and nonsense then to actually read, I guess?

I have laid out the fact that independent action that needs, absolutely needs to be taken. I will repeat myself

"I have said it a multitude of times and I will continue to say this
this type of NGO fomented mass uprising will change nothing
It hasn't yet
It is not going to
It is not designed to
The system through which these uprisings are created is a corrupt system, created by the elites.
The anger of the people is real. The discontent. All real
But, it is directed.

Change will only be affected when persons that share the point of view you expound stop believing in the illusory system set out by corrupt leadership
And then stop participating in the corrupt illusory system.
Which means individually, we have to take responsibility for ourselves and stop looking to leaders to 'lead us'
As we can easily see/witness/observe the leaders we allow to lead us
have buried us.
That will be the ONLY way things will change for the better
And when that starts to happen I will be truly happy

Posted by: Penny | Jul 9 2013 14:22 utc | 120

Ah! I wish it wasnt true! But again, Im afraid alot of us fell for a staged Revolution 2.0 in Egypt! I also thought it was an authentic, understandable reaction of ze people against an oppressive puppet-gov serving US/Israeli interests! But only at first glance! Here is a link to an article posted on RT, which eloquently puts what I've been suspecting. Good read!http://rt.com/op-edge/america-egypt-prevent-civil-war-838/

Posted by: Kal | Jul 9 2013 14:27 utc | 121

guest 77 @ 119

as I said the other day, in another thread here

"The only way that people are going to get that which they desire is to work together outside of the corrupted system
Because a corrupt system and the global governmental NGO system is entirely corrupt is not made, wasn't created to serve the needs of the people"

Posted by: Penny | Jul 9 2013 14:28 utc | 122

Oh and guest77 what I do in the real world is not relevant to the discussion here
Why you insist, like so many here do on creating a strawman to cut down is beyond me?

do you not what that is?
are you aware that you engage in that behaviour?

"To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position"

guest77 lays out the strawman..."You clearly have no idea of the joy that comes from people being in the streets and commanding - or at least affecting - their destiny. Failure or success, there is more happiness in those moments of self-expression and working together (organizing food shipments, medical treatment, even sanitation) than most people find in decades of living.

Have you ever been out to protest Penny? Have you ever helped to organize a group to achieve a goal? Ever done anything other than write YOUR thoughts and drive people over to "your place"? People working together for equal benefit is its own reward. It's real happiness Penny.

Then Guest 77 comes in for the attack: You're not in Egypt, but you are quick to dismiss this as "NGO" protests, designed to fail. You must know better than all those millions of Egyptians then, correct? They're all "dupes" and if probably they'd read your blog, they'd know a thing or two, right? Yes yes Penny, very good"

Dishonest

Posted by: Penny | Jul 9 2013 14:32 utc | 123

Anonymous @ 98 -- (the one who posts frequently...who knows how many Anonymouses (Anonymice?) we have here!)

The thread might be easier to follow when you make replies if you add the number of the comment as well as the nym of the commenter. Just a suggestion.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 9 2013 14:36 utc | 124

This is not an NGO fomented rising. On the other hand, Penny, such is the pervasive influence of NGOs and capitalist culture that, any rising anywhere in going to be infected by NGOs and other manifestations of the dominant culture. The stench of the Colour revolutions (and the Secret Policemen's insurgency) will remain with us for a little longer, whether we like it or not.

Humanity in struggling to step out of the primeval swamp is going to be covered in traces of the mud it leaves behind.

But that is no reason for telling the Egyptians that they are suckers, wasting their time.
What do you suggest that they do?
Read your blog and cleanse themselves of impure thoughts until they have achieved a state of consciousness commensurate with the tasks they are undertaking?

That's not the way that history works: we begin from the present.
Of the millions who demanded the resignation of Morsi, almost every one of them, individually, will have had reasons of his own.
Some will have wanted a military dictator: of them, some a Pinochet, others a Nasser.
Some will have wanted Egypt to become America (as seen on TV) others Israel or France.
Some wanted the sort of revolution that Tony Cliff talked about. Others favoured Kemalism. Some will have regarded Morsi as insufficiently pious. Many hated him because of his conventional religiosity. Some will have been feminists, others utterly chauvinistic, sexually.

And so on. You get the picture. If you expect an orderly, philosophically homogeneous uprising with agreement on anything more than "He must go!" you have a long wait ahead of you.

Egypt is in a desperate situation. The spectres of famine and disease cast their shadows over the lives of eighty millions. There is only one way out which will not involve the deepening of a tragedy which has been gathering impetus for years and that is for people to take power themselves.

This is unlikely to be happen but it could. Even if it does not the ruling class, and not just in Egypt, has been reminded that "We are many. They are few."

It will be interesting to see whether the next government dares to follow in Morsi's steps and propose ending food and fuel subsidies and parceling off public assets to its cronies. It might, in order to save the next "elected" ruler the embarassment of doing it. On the other hand, secure in the knowledge that Mr Evans will defend the carte blanche elections afford the Obamas and Morsis of this world, they might just leave the dirty work to whomsoever emerges next spring.
In either case the reaction from the people is likely to be instantaneous and angry.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 9 2013 15:05 utc | 125

WebsterGTarpley ‏@WebsterGTarpley 6 Jul
#WallStreet, #London fear #Egypt #Nasserist #HamdeenSabbahi who opposes both MoslemBros and #IMF-banned by west media http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/satellite-channel-prevents-sabbahi-appearance …

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2013 15:06 utc | 126

Kev

Your suspicions seem correct. The MB gain more from any shooting of protestors than the army. The same situation as early in Syria.

Posted by: Crest | Jul 9 2013 15:09 utc | 127

FYI: Oksana Boyko ‏@OksanaBoyko_RT 23h
Just had a chat with Clare Daly, Irish MP who called #Obama hypocrite of the century over stance on #Syria. Airing next Thurs on WorldsApart

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2013 15:10 utc | 128

Here's a viewpoint from a man on the spot: Let a hundred flowers bloom.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/09/class-warfare-in-egypt/

Posted by: bevin | Jul 9 2013 15:12 utc | 129

bevin @125

'But that is no reason for telling the Egyptians that they are suckers, wasting their time."

Could you quote where I said that Egyptian are suckers as you are implying?"

If you cannot and I know you can't you are being dishonest.

Posted by: Penny | Jul 9 2013 15:24 utc | 130

127) or a third party wishing to make sure the Muslim Brotherhood is kept out of the political process,
or army conscripts freaking out

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 15:29 utc | 131

guest77

That makes no sense at all, if you read some history about how US approach coup, you would see they change according to their interests, thus keeping aid to a military dictorship is an approval of the coup. Of course US wont accept Russia/Iran etc funding Egypt, its a nobrainer..?
You think if Hamas made a coup in the westbank, you think US would keep funding the westbank? You make no sense.

What does "political christianity" have to do with anything? This is my point you dont seems to understand the implications of destryoing political moderate islam.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 16:29 utc | 132

WebsterGTarpley ‏@WebsterGTarpley 6 Jul #WallStreet, #London fear #Egypt #Nasserist #HamdeenSabbahi who opposes both MoslemBros and #IMF-banned by west media http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/satellite-channel-prevents-sabbahi-appearance … Posted by: brian | Jul 9, 2013 11:06:23 AM | 126

Tarpley is very keen on Hamdin Sabbahi. Tarpley being who he is, that means he sees HS as germ for a sort of Egyptian New Deal economics: lots of social welfare and keynesian spending to create employment and domestic demand; capitalism as such unaffected. The most radical thing about Tarpley is that he would repudiate all debts. Since Egypt presumably needs its IMF loan to service existing debts, that's highly pertinent. Tarpley is occasionally deceived; he thinks Syriza in Greece is into repudiating the country's debts, but he's wrong; the Syriza leaders are on record as reassuring the European Central Bank that they will be good and dutiful. Anyway, the article Tarpley refers to, which is an english-language translation from the quite highly respected al-Masry al-Youm, is real enough.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 9 2013 18:06 utc | 133

@129

The battle is so fierce because the primary combatants are the two most powerful social forces in Egypt, both factions of the capitalist class – the military as the state capitalist class and the Ikhwan (the Muslim Brotherhood) representing the competitive capitalist class.

ie Dems vs Repubs, Labour vs Conservative...

Posted by: Ruralito | Jul 9 2013 19:12 utc | 134

somebody | Jul 9, 2013 11:29:45 AM | 131, Yes - all sides will be involved even new sides seeing opportunities...

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 22:38 utc | 135

crest

Does that include the women and children, did they also benefit from shooting?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 10 2013 12:07 utc | 136

@Penny

When you call it an "NGO fomented mass uprising" you are calling Egyptians suckers.

Do you not think they are aware of the existence of NGOs? Of colour revolutions? That their may be people attempting to manipulate them? Yet they go out and protest.

An NGO uprising would clearly be against their interests, but we see millions participate. So what are you calling them, if not dupes, who risk their lives for someone else's benefit?

It's not a "straw manning" to point out the failings of your thought processes Penny. Your world view is so deeply embedded into all of your arguments, it has to be dealt with when discussing things.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 11 2013 16:35 utc | 137

"What does "political christianity" have to do with anything? This is my point you dont seems to understand the implications of destryoing political moderate islam."

I understand the "implications" - if by "implications" you mean threats of terrorism that are thrown about now by self-styled "moderates".

If you can't see the relationship between the MB and the US Religious Right you are truly hopeless. I'm certain everyone else here can. You can play dumb by yourself.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 11 2013 16:38 utc | 138