Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 8, 2013
Egypt: Escalating To What?

Over night the Muslim Brotherhood continued a sit-in in front of the Republican Guard Headquarter in Cairo. It is assumed that former president Morsi is held there.

At about 4:00am local time today a shoot out occurred there in which at least 50 people were killed and over 300 were wounded.

According to the Muslim Brotherhood the sit-in was attacked by soldiers during dawn prayers. According to the army two officers died when some "armed terrorists" attacked the soldiers which then responded to the fire.

In a video, allegedly of the incident, tear gas clouds can be seen and gun shoots are heard. At that time it is still pitch dark. According to one eyewitness account tear gas volleys by the military were responded to with bird shoots by the MB protesters.

A standoff continues around the Rafba'a mosque where the MB had held rallies. Some MB followers have retreated in the mosque while the police and military is attempting to clear the side. Gunshots can be heard in the area.

A Muslim Brotherhood statement claimed a "massacre" had taken place and said "even the Jews don't do this". It called for an intifada or "uprising" against the military.

Meanwhile the political situation is unresolved. Names put forward for a prime minister by the Tahrir protesters, now allied with the military and the Salafists, were rejected by the later. The main Salafist party has for now withdrawn from any further negotiations.

It is hard to see how the situation can be resolved. The power of the military is unchecked, a political compromise is further away than ever and the economic problems are getting worse. The Russian president Putin warned that Egypt is approaching a civil war. He may well be right with that assessment.

In the current situation any party can easily stoke the fire with very little effort. A few shots into this direction, a few shots into that direction and the war is on.

Comments

Take a look at the salafi in the picture. No need for further comment.
http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=100909&cid=21&fromval=1&frid=21&seccatid=19&s1=1

Posted by: Amar | Jul 8 2013 8:59 utc | 1

Amar, it isn’t the people who appear on the street you have to worry about; as b points out delicately in his last paragraph, it’s snipers, themselves concealed, who fire at troops across the heads of demonstrators, that you have to worry about. And you can never determine with certainty who the hell they are.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 8 2013 9:05 utc | 2

Does people that supported the coup also supported the coup in Algeria in the 90s? That is, do you coup-supporters accept the suppression and killing of 100’000s by a dictatorship?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 8 2013 9:07 utc | 3

The Egyptian army claimed to have only fired blank rounds and tear gas during an earlier incident – despite foreign journalists being wounded and images showing a man on the ground his a hole in his head.
Not all Muslim Brotherhood supporters want some strict Islamic state, where Christians are burnt at the stake, and not everybody who voted for Morsi are necessarily Muslim Brotherhood supporters.
But we are now in a situation where they have seen their elected president brought down in a coup and are being shot in the street.
Geopolitical implications and political affinities aside, this is a gross injustice.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 8 2013 9:28 utc | 4

Anonymous | Jul 8, 2013 5:07:29 AM | 3
I am for individual freedom, anonymous. And I happen to know that repressive states need terrorists to fight against, so their frightened populations support them. It happened to left wing groups as it happens to the Muslim Brotherhood.
Whoever is directing the Muslim Brotherhood to fight against the Egyptian state de facto supports repression.
It is clear why Assad was very happy about what is going on in Egypt: He realized that the Muslim Brotherhood would be unable to compromize and therefore be out of any political process that could endanger his regime.
I am sure security cooperation between Syria and Egypt has already started. It has restarted between Germany and Syria a while ago – as we now can be sure that means it has restarted between the US and Syria by proxy.
Islamist danger is now used to justify spying on US and EU citizens, and seeing all the atrocities in Syria and now Egypt we buy into it.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 9:51 utc | 5

@ Pat Bateman #4
“The Egyptian army claimed to have only fired blank rounds and tear gas during an earlier incident – despite foreign journalists being wounded and images showing a man on the ground his a hole in his head.”
Are you assuming MB with Al Qaeda dont have weapons? Especially considering armed “peaceful protesters” and snipers were West and PGGC approved tactic for the start of the “uprising” in both Libya and Syria. Radical jihadists could be just using the strategy they learned from previous endeavors.
I’m not saying army didnt start shooting at demonstrations (me and you have no way of knowing it without actual proof), but its highly unlikely since they have nothing to gain from it. Army from the very start were pushing for non-violent coup and were on defensive. Calculation changes however if soldiers are attacked and killed, THEN I’m pretty sure army wont use just blanks. Regardless if shooters are among demonstrators or its snipers.
“Not all Muslim Brotherhood supporters want some strict Islamic state, where Christians are burnt at the stake, and not everybody who voted for Morsi are necessarily Muslim Brotherhood supporters.”
It doesnt matter how many MB supporters are radicals, what matters is MB leadership ARE radicals, financed by radical petro-monarchy Qatar. Fish starts to rot from the head.
“Geopolitical implications and political affinities aside, this is a gross injustice.”
I’m pretty sure it would be even worse geopoliticaly if Egypt’s youth is send to Syria for “jihad”, along with minorities persecuted (and executed) in Egypt. If MB and Al Qaeda in Egypt would be smart, they could be part of peaceful transition and gain bonus points and win next elections. Instead they (and Qatar?) are pushing for the civil war.

Posted by: Harry | Jul 8 2013 9:57 utc | 6

#3 addition – Algeria – when people choose to join clandestine underground organization they have no way to know who is directing those organizations – just great for secret services.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 10:05 utc | 7

Or equally, they feel betrayed by Qatar. They feel that it has dumped them and left them in the lurch. Some newspapers even reported that Qatar had joined the chorus of congratulations to the Army for deposing Morsi:

Arab leaders in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, the UAE and Qatar all congratulated Egypt on getting rid of Morsi.

This must be wrong. Qaradawi is still in Qatar and he put out a speech the next day exhorting the MB to stand firm and demand Morsi’s restoration:

Doctor al-Qaradawi issued a fatwa on the necessity to support the elected Egyptian president Mohamed Mursi, and to retain the constitution… and calling on al-Sisi and those with him to withdraw to preserve legitimacy and democracy.

I would appreciate further help on the question of where Morsi was at with the IMF. As I said on another thread, but I failed to give all my links, certain disinfological sources (such as Christoph Lehmann’s NSNBC) falsely claim that the Egyptian State Information Service issued a statement on Apr 21 2013 rejecting the IMF loan. In fact, a joint statement on Apr 21 by the IMF and the Egyptian delegation in Washington confirmed that an agreement was expected within the next few weeks. The director of Egypt’s Central Bank, Hisham Ramez, said that he expected negotiations to reach agreement in April or May. On Apr 24 2013, Morsi’s spokesman Ehab Fahmy said that negotiations with the IMF over the loan had almost reached a successful conclusion. The IMF asked Egypt to reduce its budget deficit, cut its fuel subsidies and increase its tax revenues. An initial agreement was reached at the end of 2012, but political unrest broke out after the first wave of price rises required by the programme

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 8 2013 10:07 utc | 8

There is something else going on – the Egyptian army claims the Muslim Brotherhood tried to storm the Republican Guard headquarters – that is the story spread in Western media – where Mursy is held.
Rumours say Erdogan tries behind the scenes to get Mursy reinstated i.e. the coup reverted.
Salafis have withdrawn from the popular impeachment coalition.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 10:18 utc | 9

Actually Reuters picked up the claim that Morsi had rejected the IMF loan:

Bahaa’el-Din argued in favor of Egypt concluding a $4.8b loan deal with the IMF, which remains stalled because Morsi refused to implement it.

This is very interesting, because if it is indeed disinfo, as I think it is, the question arises: what is the purpose of it? My theory is that when reading centre-right to right-wing sources, you have to consider the possibility that they are exaggerating the radicalism of their declared opponents, in order to create a sense of unjustified optimism in readers who they know are leftist sympathisers. In other words, we have what are ultimately fake oppositional groups like the MB, and the right wing wants the left-leaning public (which it knows reads its newspapers, albeit in a hostile spirit), to think these fake oppositional groups are much more radical than they really are. To take an extreme example, a leftist sympathiser will read one of Caroline Glick’s incredible rants and go away thinking that these fake oppositional groups are real and are on the point of taking over the world, thanks to the spinelessness of people like Obama. I know this sounds far-fetched, but let’s give them credit for being clever. We know they have the ability to run the Mighty Wurlitzer with total unanimity. Once they have established a disinfo strategy, they give it to Reuters (an ideal choice) and hundreds of US broadsheets reprint it without the slightest questioning.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 8 2013 10:26 utc | 10

@Harry #6
“Army from the very start were pushing for non-violent coup and were on defensive”
How honorable..
“If MB ..in Egypt would be smart, they could be part of peaceful transition and gain bonus points and win next elections”
But they won the last election, freely and fairly. Why were they supposed to submit to the losers of that election?
Look, I’ve been banging the Pro-Syrian Government drum for two years. But the difference is that there was no quantifiable support for the uprising in Syria. The opposition in Syria has rejected every opportunity to prove the scale of their supposed popularity by boycotting elections. On the other hand, support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was proven in numbers at the ballot box. If Morsi’s Government was becoming increasingly unpopular, they would have lost the next election and faded into political obscurity.
Now we have chaos.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 8 2013 10:39 utc | 11

It’s heading for civil war by design
It has been obvious from the get go
PennyJuly 3, 2013 at 3:37 PM
Cue the civil war
As stated at my place July 3.
This was not a coup, merely a changing of the face of a puppet government to incite sectarian violence
My statement of July 3 is looking more correct as the days go on
Yet. I make no claim of special knowledge or an ability to prognosticate
I expanded a day later
“The army clearly pushed Morsi out knowing the brainwashed dupes/ the militants/ the mercenaries in the MB would take up the cause.It is what they have been programmed to do. It is the expected outcome.
Cue the civil war”
People indoctrinated with ‘beliefs’are easily manipulated.
This coup, that was not a coup, was not something to be ‘happy’ about
The real power is still the real power- the military.
And they are doing all they can to foment sectarian violence
And they are not Muslim Brotherhood
But then, the military is another bunch of individuals indoctrinated with beliefs
And people indoctrinated with ‘beliefs’ are easily manipulated

Posted by: Penny | Jul 8 2013 10:46 utc | 12

The MB is fighting for their very existence and survival..This decade could possibly be the end of the MB as a political force in the region..The had their chance but prove to be very divisive for society as a whole.
Their opportunistic association with extremist salafist/wahhabi/takfiris have been one of the main reason for the rapid downfall.

Posted by: Zico | Jul 8 2013 10:59 utc | 13

@ Pat Bateman #11
“support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was proven in numbers at the ballot box. If Morsi’s Government was becoming increasingly unpopular, they would have lost the next election and faded into political obscurity.”
Several things important here:
1. Voting doesnt mean automatic approval of everything elected government does. If it doesnt follow-through with its promises, voters have the right to recall the people they elected, one way or another. Morsi and MB broke every promise (and was inciting sectarian violence and warmongering on top of that), hence people hit the streets.
2. Anti-Morsi demonstrations saw ~17 mln. people, way more than voted for him. Public’s opinion and will cannot possibly get more clear than that.
3. Democracy doesnt mean just voting, its unreasonable to expect people just watch how radicals (even if fairly elected) destroy their country and be silent about it.

Posted by: Harry | Jul 8 2013 11:10 utc | 14

you ever think to yourself FSA and israel may be working together? Consider this: a bombing in syria of a military weapons depot:
‘Though the Free Syrian Army took immediate credit for the attack, it was not the responsible party.
A confidential Israeli source informs me that Israeli forces attacked the site. The target were components of Russia’s SA-300 anti-aircraft missile system which had been shipped by Russia to Tartus and stored in Latakia.’
http://www.globalresearch.ca/act-of-war-israel-attacks-syrian-weapons-depot-containing-advanced-russian-arms/5341940
FSA claims an action really carried out by israel? copping the blame for anothers action is usually called loyalty.

Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2013 11:24 utc | 15

It seems that military speaking, the coup has been successful, but politically failing, creating the conditions of a big slaughter or civil war… I’m pessimistic today!

Posted by: André | Jul 8 2013 11:44 utc | 16

Harry | Jul 8, 2013 7:10:04 AM | 14 – Adding to that is the splintering within the Muslim Brotherhood. This splintering, which is occurring along socioeconomic, political, and generational lines, but increasingly ‘Radical elements’ that have started enforcing ‘strict’ Islamic religious undertones. Significant number of Brotherhood started forming their own political parties, all offshoots of the organization, and ‘green lighted’ from the HQ. This is not an coalition move, but a Cult and Gang culture, taking position inside and outside, its manipulation and a power drive. One can also see the huge NGO surge of the Brotherhood, and also see its funding sources, and the linkages are blatent, it was also a numbers maker for elections, now that paints a picture.
In that, and as I said in the past Egypt has yet to reform what he calls its “Hardliner security state,” this cannot be done overnight and it has muscle memory, it can’t just close shop and will be reactional. A fundamental change in the relationships between the police, security state, and citizens needs forged, middle ground is needed, The Brotherhood is not that mechanism as it’s isolationist and with the economy suffering and a stagnant tourist industry coupled with the back peddling of both foreign and national businesses to invest/commit in the country indicates the Brotherhood is not a ideal partner and never will be.
The Supreme Council of the Armed Force’s needs to be commitment to democratic reform, but it also needs afforded the opportunity. Every Nation needs a Military apparatus; even Egypt’s Military is now imbedded with Brotherhood members and has been for decades, look at it as free training and in some cases position, one that does ‘disrupt’ and is strongly linked to radical elements and being funded from the outside on all sides. The military needs streamlined, vetted, and functionally viable, one that does not need outside injection otherwise it will always be leaning, be it the US, Qatar or other.
Sectarian violence will not cure anything, or will the Brotherhood, that is proven. Loosing face has just brought out the Brotherhoods true colours and its true controllers, Al Qaida (The enforcers) now active and Qatar as the paymaster now looking at it’s ‘Investment’.

Posted by: kev | Jul 8 2013 11:46 utc | 17

“Blood brings mobilization, mobilization brings repression/massacre, massacre brings blood. Blood brings mobilization…that has been the pattern since January 2011. Elected institutions were suppose to manage the political conflict…away form blood, mobilization and repression. Now, a coup, so back to point zero. blood, mobilization, repression. Rhetoric does not indicate dialogue, behavior does not indicate inclusion. More disasters looming. Any rationals???”

https://www.facebook.com/Ashouro/posts/10152975018430587
I guess it is the Egyptian army’s not so subtle hint to the US that they are the “go to” guys in Egypt and noone else.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 11:56 utc | 18

The lesson is quite clear, the next time a islamist outfit gets power they will have move to dismantle the Deep State.

Posted by: heath | Jul 8 2013 12:01 utc | 19

Very worrying that people here support the coup, this will certainly bring the end of moderate islam. It seems that people here dont really understand the implications of their coup-cheering.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 8 2013 12:16 utc | 20

Adding to that is the splintering within the Muslim Brotherhood. This splintering, which is occurring along socioeconomic, political, and generational lines, but increasingly ‘Radical elements’ that have started enforcing ‘strict’ Islamic religious undertones. Significant number of Brotherhood started forming their own political parties, all offshoots of the organization, and ‘green lighted’ from the HQ. This is not an coalition move, but a Cult and Gang culture, taking position inside and outside, its manipulation and a power drive. One can also see the huge NGO surge of the Brotherhood, and also see its funding sources, and the linkages are blatent, it was also a numbers maker for elections, now that paints a picture.[…] Even Egypt’s Military is now imbedded with Brotherhood members and has been for decades, look at it as free training and in some cases position, one that does ‘disrupt’ and is strongly linked to radical elements and being funded from the outside on all sides. The military needs streamlined, vetted, and functionally viable, one that does not need outside injection otherwise it will always be leaning, be it the US, Qatar or other. […] Loosing face has just brought out the Brotherhoods true colours and its true controllers, Al Qaida (The enforcers) now active and Qatar as the paymaster now looking at it’s ‘Investment’.
Posted by: kev | Jul 8, 2013 7:46:15 AM | 17

This is a bit confusing. I could understand and agree if what you’re saying is that extremist MB factions are actually mutinying against their higher command. It seems to me that the paymasters in Qatar must by now be kowtowing to CIA commands to rein in MBs everywhere to the best of their ability, and in particular to isolate known al-Qaeda factions and cut them off from funds, arms, and communications. The CIA, after all, is responsible to the President via the NSC, and it seems clear that Obama is endeavouring to pull the plug on AQ funding, at least.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 8 2013 12:20 utc | 21

Egyptian army show again who their allied is. Some people here still thinks that the egyptian army is anti-imperialist even when they collaborate with Israel.
“Egypt’s army increases destroying Gaza tunnels”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ1jzB-O70o

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 8 2013 12:22 utc | 22

Morsi and the MB intended to make a nice little war across the sea in far off Syria. “Let others suffer, we’re pious and powerful.”
Instead they’re getting what they intended for the poor people of Syria amongst their own friends and family, in their own neighborhoods in their own country.
This is what comes to those who dress up hatred and sectarianism as a “popular” movement. The MB are simply reaping what they’ve sown. The blame lies entirely on them.
Unlike the “Good Germans” of the 1930’s the people of Egypt rejected the hatred being spread in their name and came out in their millions to topple the would be murderer. My only hope is that they’re rewarded for their brave act instead of having to suffer through a long civil war.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 8 2013 12:24 utc | 23

Israeli voices and Bernard Levy support the coup. 🙂
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6472-israel-welcomes-egyptian-army-coup
The coup lovers are in a really nice camp, wonder if they’ll ever wake up.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 8 2013 12:43 utc | 24

@ Heath

The lesson is quite clear, the next time a islamist outfit gets power they will have move to dismantle the Deep State.

Indeed, it was stupid for the MB to think Mubarak’s military would work with them, with just a few retirements at the top. The Iranian revolutionaries in 1979 had the right idea, they knew the Shah’s military was close to the Americans. So whoever didn’t get a firing squad, got exiled. Same goes for the French revolutionaries who killed all the generals and officers and filled the Army with sans culottes.
I second the call for an Egyptian Intifada. The Tamarod should unite with the Muslim Brotherhood again and deal with the SCAF once and for all. You cannot continue a Revolution while siding against half the people. These divisions will led to civil war and a military reign. Once the people are united (both Tamarod and MB) no one will stop them.
And anyway the MB are in such desperate shape at present (leaders arrested, President deposed, supporters being shot on the street) that the Tamarod movement can negotiate a real power sharing deal with them from a good position. The Muslim Brothers need the Tamarod movement, a lot more than Tamarod needs the Muslim Brothers. Unite the people and you win.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jul 8 2013 12:46 utc | 25

#24 yep the Muslim Brotherhood managed to alienate everybody which is quite a political victory.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 12:56 utc | 26

@Anon: The idea that this is going to be the “end of moderate Islam” (though I’d challenge that fomenting sectarian violence and supporting terrorist wars is anything but “moderate”) is a not-so thinly veiled threat.
The true moderates will remain loyal to Egypt, putting their ummah and their countrymen and countrywomen ahead of their simple sectarian loyalties.
Those who were simply wearing the mask of moderation may well go out looking to collect heads, looking for livers to eat – whatever the hell those psychopaths do. That is their choice. They should be and, god willing, will be defeated.
No one cares what Bernard Levy says. Same with McCain who apparently has developed a fetish for terrorists.
You call people “coup-lovers” and that may personally feel good to you, but you’ve got harder work to do than simply convincing yourself. That’s not what this is about.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 8 2013 12:59 utc | 27

Anonymous @24
Trying to paint this coup as an Israeli backed on and the Morsi camp as anels is just being very disingenuous.
In case you missed it, Morsi was FULLY cooperating with the Israelis on many issues like Gaza, Sinai etc etc.. In fact, under Morsi, the siege on the strip was tightened not eased. He ordered the army to destroy several tunnels leading to Gaza.
The MB are by nature, politically/intellectually bankrupt and will align themselves with almost anybody that promises them heaven.

Posted by: Zico | Jul 8 2013 13:01 utc | 28

guest77
Thats the issue, MB was the biggest force and when you have they radicalize there are no political islam to talk about any longer thanks to the brutal egyptian army and its supporters. Also history tells us different. People need to wake up on these issues.
Yeah guys like have condemned Bernad Levy in the past, now say “no one cares what Bernard levy says”. Quite a hypocritical stance.
Zico
So when I give you statements by israeli parties themselves saying they back the coup, you say the opposite? Please.
Israel are in principle allied with the egyptian army.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 8 2013 13:07 utc | 29

Anonymous @ 29
I think you’re missing the point..Throwing Israel into the mix mean nothing..The point I’m making here is that both parties (Military and MB) have links with the Israelis regime.
Are you denying Morsi had no links with the Israelis regime? If anything, the past year’s proven Morsi/Israelis were happy to work together on many issues.
The MB always use the “Israeli” hasbara BS when they’re exposed can’t articulate a coherent message to the masses..We see them do the same in Syria.
In Syria, they claim Assad is fighting to protect the “Zionist” regime but most of the MB back fighters get treated in Israeli hospitals when injured. We’ve heard many MB back terrorist commanders make statement regarding their cooperation with Israel in attacking Syria. The excuse of labeling any anti-MB opinion with something Israeli is wearing thin. The MB’s been working with the Israelis for decades through Qatar and the US. Go figure.

Posted by: Zico | Jul 8 2013 13:18 utc | 30

Pat, what you and others like Debs, Arnold and Anonymous say is true, hard to argue with the facts. A military coup removed a government not even half way through its first term in office, negating the most recent popular vote. Not good indeed.
When one asks why the military did what it did, the proverbial dog licking his balls comes to mind. They do what they do because they can.
The Egyptian military is what it is, a known known in Rumsfeld speak. Getting mad at the generals for using mass popular protests as staging platform for a coup is like blaming a snake for eating ones rabbit. Pointless. A snake does what a snake does. Don’t want your pet eaten by one better make sure no snake gets the chance.
Mursi and the MB knew the generals would be hard to control, knew they were in the cross hairs of foreign interest groups. To push through policies as controversial and polarising as Mursi tried to, even if he barely won a popular vote 12 months ago, was like asking the military to punch him right in the face. Guess what, they did.
It would indeed have been nice to see the first post-Mubarak elected government make it the full distance and have a regular election in 3 years time measuring public support for its policies and a peaceful leadership change in case they were outvoted. The blame for why this ideal scenario didn’t eventuate has to be however shared by a number of players, including the Mursi government itself. Playing their hand as provocatively as they did was giving the army the perfect opening to take them out.
As you wrote, it was a gross injustice. But, apart from the karmic rule that people who themselves engage in dishing out injustice better not bank on being treated justly, the world of politics, especially in the ME, has little to do with justice. The concept of realpolitik applies and most actors know that where there is no judge there is no crime.
Simply hoping a nation in revolutionary mode is gonna wait out an entire term because a piece of paper says so, without accompanying actions that would ensure broad support or at least understanding amongst the people, was destined to fail. Especially in a period where 3 years feels like a damned long time, ask any Syrian.
To sum up, just as you rightly state “If Morsi’s Government was becoming increasingly unpopular, they would have lost the next election and faded into political obscurity”, would it be correct to say ‘if Morsi’s Government would have maintained or increased its popularity, they would have been able to finish their term and win the next election’.
And yes, now Egyptians have chaos.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Jul 8 2013 13:36 utc | 31

Morsi was FULLY cooperating with the Israelis on many issues like Gaza, Sinai etc etc.. In fact, under Morsi, the siege on the strip was tightened not eased. He ordered the army to destroy several tunnels leading to Gaza.
– Zico, 28

No he wasn’t. He was building up Jihadi forces in the Sinai, including al-Qaeda ones. And he wanted the Army to turn a blind eye to it, which they would not do, because they knew this would be instant blowback for Egypt, as indeed the MB intended it to be. That is how the Army sees it, anyway.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 8 2013 14:05 utc | 32

29) don’t you think it would be stupid to react like a Pavlov dog just because someone whom I do not respect says something I agree with like a stopped clock that tells the right time twice a day?
25) the Muslim Brotherhood has always been used to split people on cultural lines, they have been used for that in Egypt, they have been used for that in Palestine
This from the former British empire who should know

Banna argued that Islam provided a complete solution, with divine guidance on everything from worship and spiritual matters to the law, politics and social organisation. He established an evening school for the working classes which impressed the general inspector of education and by 1931 the brotherhood had constructed its first mosque – for which the Suez Canal Company is said to have provided some of the funds.
Banna was offering a religious alternative to the more secular and western-inspired nationalist ideas that had so far failed to liberate Egypt from the clutches of foreign powers, and the popular appeal of his message was undeniable: by 1938, the movement had 300 branches across the country, as well as others in Lebanon and Syria.

The Muslim Brotherhood now reaches out to the West to help it return to power – whilst the Egyptian army and their protesters make it clear to everybody – Western journalists most of all – that foreign intervention is not welcome. A German television crew got arrested and CNN does not dare to send reporters into crowds.
Anne Paterson deserves a prize for stupidity for having openly tried to establish official channels to the Muslim Brotherhood leadership. This with an army intelligence guy in power who made his career ensuring that no officer talks to the US unauthorized by SCAF.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 14:07 utc | 33

also from above article – sounds very familiar

During the second world war, British attitudes towards the brotherhood – and those of the British-backed Egyptian monarchy – ranged from suppression to covert support, since it was viewed as a possible counterweight against the secular nationalist party, the Wafd, and the communists. In 1948, the movement sent volunteers to fight in Palestine against the establishment of Israel and there were numerous bomb attacks on Jews in Cairo – at least some of which are attributed to the brotherhood.
A year later, members assassinated a judge who had jailed a Muslim Brother for attacking British soldiers. The Egyptian government ordered the brotherhood to be dissolved and many of its members were arrested. The prime minister was then assassinated by a Brother and in February 1949 Banna was himself gunned down in the streets of Cairo, apparently on the order of the authorities.

What do you call a movement that continues to do the same mistakes?

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 14:10 utc | 34

All of the Arabic Countries have the same problem: Overpopulation; too many elderly people; and youth who are frustrated because there are not enough job opportunities. (They say that the Mediterranean Sea is 99% dead.) Add to this another problem: Cultural incongruence between Global Secularists, and Traditional Arabs. Of course, you could say that Arabic countries are already socialist, because of the high taxes, but in cultural terms, the Arabs and the Western world are very different. Both societies are collapsing, but for different reasons. The West is collapsing because of Communism: All of the young girls have abandoned their families, and become bolsheviks. The Arab societies are collapsing because they haven’t developed their economies. They still depend on oil revenue, and they import most manufactured goods.
There is nothing that the military can do to solve these problems; either in America or Egypt. The job of the Military is to provide political stability during a crisis, but it can’t actually foster political change. That’s what makes the problem in so difficult. What should both Egypt and America do with so many elderly people? And how do we stop governments from training girls to become Communists, like Israel does?
The answer, first of all, is abandon the idea of a global economy. Each part of the world has to work out its own problems. For the Arabs, an important part of the solution is to stop selling oil; and stop importing manufactured goods. This will foster local industry, and put a lot of young people to work. Will the cars be as good? No, they won’t. But they will be locally made, and something that people can be proud of. At the same time, there needs to be a new separation between Church and State. Neither Muslim Clerics, nor females should be involved in politics. I agree with the Arabs that a woman’s place is in the home. Not the Government, or the Army, or the Factory.
For America, the solution is to stop interfering in the internal affiars of other countries. What happens in Egypt is not America’s concern.
The people of the United States are not obligated to spend money, or sacrifice it young men fighting wars that have nothing to do with the security of the United States. America needs to focus on its own problems: Getting the Bolsheviks out of Washington, and reducing the tax burden. Egypt will work out its problems for itself.

Posted by: Ron Liebermann | Jul 8 2013 14:14 utc | 35

Ron Liebermann | Jul 8, 2013 10:14:43 AM | 35 Huh? Making Cars, stop selling oil, woman’s place at home, Bolsheviks, To many elderly people, Israel communist. Geezer, are on crack?

Posted by: kev | Jul 8 2013 14:37 utc | 36

heath@19
“The lesson is quite clear, the next time a islamist outfit gets power they will have move to dismantle the Deep State.”
The MB’s problem is that, while projecting an image of populism they always demonstrate that the only reforms that interest them are ritualistic. They are a middle class, commercial party catering to the interests of employers, developers, merchants: exploiters. They are natural authoritarians who view democracy simply in a Bonapartist plebiscitary way: “we will do the ruling, now that we have the mandate.”
They lost power because their mandate was withdrawn, by the people. They expected to be able to use the military, against the opposition crowds, precisely as the military-unforgivably-is acting now.
Now the rank and file of the Brotherhood are in opposition. Where are the 17 million who last week told us that they were opposed to military dictatorship and for democracy?
Anonymous @20
“Very worrying that people here support the coup, this will certainly bring the end of moderate islam. It seems that people here don’t really understand the implications of their coup-cheering.”
Those who “support the coup” are few and far between in this forum. Most of those who support the opposition are opposed, as are most of the opposition in Egypt, to a military dictatorship.
The Army had two alternatives, one was to seize the chance to earn popular support during a transition period, the other was to return to its repressive habits. It has chosen the latter.
As to “moderate islam” it is surprising to see the wahhabi extremism promoted by the Gulf tyrants described as moderate. It is nothing of the sort. It is certainly authoritarian and anti-democratic and has been hijacked by the most reactionary forces in the very artificial oil and gas states. There is every sign that the transition from the Brotherhood’s office holding to the military regime will involve no inconvenience for the Saudis or the other Gulf states.
As someone who was happy to see the Brotherhood’s corrupt rule ended I am also appalled by the military’s actions today. Morsi should not be in custody. The new regime is as illegitimate as the old, and it has the same supporters, from the ruling class, who want ‘order’ while they enjoy their loot, to the US/Israeli/Gulf governments whose common and persisting view is that the people must not be allowed to rule. Their enemy is democracy, not sham elections with bourgeois victors in competition with equally bourgeois losers but popular rule, grounded in the vast slums and the rural villages.
Finally, regarding the influence of foreigners. It is one of the constant themes of diplomacy to adopt those who succeed and claim to have wished for their success and assisted them. It is a fine way of beginning a request for favours.
Nothing is more helpful to dictators than for their opponents to be told that dictatorship is inevitable and backed by forces so strong that they will always prevail.
Look at Bolivia, Cuba, Venezuela where US influence, subversion and terrorism are of no avail against the solidarity of the poor.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 8 2013 14:54 utc | 37

Naharnet ‏@Naharnet 41m
#Breaking Egyptian authorities decided to block Syrians on board a Middle East Airlines plane from entering th… http://www.naharnet.com/
Retweeted by Sharmine Narwani
=================
Sharmine Narwani ‏@snarwani 3m
MB account tweeting ‘videos’ reminiscent of early flood of #Syria ‘videos’ setting false narratives that destroyed the country.
————————-
Sharmine Narwani ‏@snarwani 2h
If #Egypt hd seen what I hv seen in #Syria – killing & lying & scene-setting for political gain – u wud wait for proof over today’s carnage.
—————————
Sharmine Narwani ‏@snarwani 3h
In #Syria, right from start, armed men would shoot at army to elicit a response. Then it was “bad regime shooting at unarmed protestors.”
—————–
Sharmine Narwani ‏@snarwani 3h
Question of who benefits should always remain paramount. Too many unknown shooters have played roles in these Arab uprisings. #Egypt #Syria
——————-
Noor Al Hussein ‏@QueenNoor 2 Jul
“@AFP: The Jordanian government has blocked access to 254 news websites
http://bit.ly/11XhNKo ” very very sad that it has come to this
Retweeted by Sharmine Narwani
———————
Sharmine Narwani @snarwani 22h
@gi_syrian: “‎#Syria-n Embassy in Cairo ‎#Egypt has been reopened after the demise of the ‎#MB and works resumes pic.twitter.com/5QgmmN8T2S”
—————-
the ‘shabiha make their appearance in egypt: Club des Cordeliers ‏@cordeliers 2h
AFP: Witnesses, including MB supporters, said “thugs” in civilian clothes carried out the deadly shooting. http://sg.news.yahoo.com/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-says-35-dead-near-army-072425848.html … @snarwani
Retweeted by Sharmine Narwani

Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2013 14:57 utc | 38

Egypt’s prosecutor’s office issued a warrant for the arrest of more than 200 Syrian opposition activists accused of inciting riots. As reported today the publication of “Al-Masri Al-Yawm,” they are all connected with the Egyptian “Muslim Brotherhood” and was hired by them to carry out attacks on demonstrators protesting against the rule of Mohammed Mursi in the squares of Cairo, Alexandria and other cities.
Supporters of the Syrian National Council and the National Coalition opposition and revolutionary forces in a number of cases used weapons against peaceful demonstrators, the newspaper notes. As established by the investigation, in Cairo, they were killed eight people. Called the name of one of the criminals – Mohamed Mohi al-Dardzhuti.
etc
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/14945472-200-syrian-opposition-activists-arrested-in-egypt

Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2013 15:03 utc | 39

bevin 37
the MB problem is that they pissed off everybody (not just your poor) and since they left the army/mubarack elite machine (or couldn’t touch it) in place, eventually when everyone’s patience ended, they were easily disposed off. The next lot (whatever their make up) in my opinion must attempt to dismantle it. They will probably fail too but eventually somebody will.

Posted by: heath | Jul 8 2013 15:20 utc | 41

Row
I agree order has to be maintained, definitely. The Gazans are under siege however and the prior policy of turning a blind eye to the tunnels that provided some relief to the Gazans, it was a miserable one at that, at least it was a hand up to the brothers in Gaza. HAMAS, has also sold its pitiful souls to the Belzebub, they can self combust right along with Abu Mazen, who is a father of nothing.
Egypt cannot annex Gaza, then it feeds into the myth that there are no “Palestinian people. Gaza must remain a part of the State of Palestine.
Too much blood lost, too many tears shed to allow Israel that “victory”.
But what did Morsi allow? He allows the tunnels to be flooded with sewage and bombed. The Egyptian government must aid the Palestinians in Gaza. They are there brothers keeper, pure and simple. Not allow Israeli bombing campaigns, at least on Egyptian territory, allow more commerce to flow in legally from the Rafah point.
The Palestinians will then not have to rely on the tribes, the black market trade will dry up.
Medicine, food, technology and more books. Capitalism!
This will loosen HAMAS and FATAH’s grip.
The Palestinians don’t want to beg the tribes, Egypt or Israel for anything.
They will police said tribes in their grid of operations.
This is dignified and gives the Palestinians their honor back.
But what Morsi offered was poop.
Just like Anonympus!!!
Hahahaha!!!

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 8 2013 15:20 utc | 42

@ Ron the troll
I’m really hoping you are a new troll (we have been having a painful lack of trolls recently) Luckily I think you are because I can’t imagine anyone is stupid enough to say:

The West is collapsing because of Communism: All of the young girls have abandoned their families, and become bolsheviks.

As someone just out of college and communist-ically inclined, I demand to know where these legions of single bolshevik girls are hanging out ! ! !

Neither Muslim Clerics, nor females should be involved in politics. I agree with the Arabs that a woman’s place is in the home.

If your last name is Liebermann, I’m not sure its a good idea to start floating the idea of “exclusion lists”. Such lists have been known to backfire.

America needs to focus on its own problems: Getting the Bolsheviks out of Washington

The perfect American solution! “Lets focus on our own problems… by making up an imaginary problem”. Should be the American national motto.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jul 8 2013 15:26 utc | 43

Zico
Yeah suddenly what Israel thinks “mean nothing” for the coup lovers. The kneejerk condemnation of Israel and “zuza” “zionist stooge” and others terms used by users here, are simply are forgotten it seems. Hilarious hypocrisy!
As I just said egyptian ARMY not state, are in principle allies with Israel.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 8 2013 15:40 utc | 44

All of the young girls have abandoned their families, and become bolsheviks.
And Liebermann ain’t getting any, lol!

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 8 2013 15:47 utc | 45

Two videos:
Man in army uniform snipping at MB demonstrators, a camera next to him filming the scene
video see at 0:48+
Masked man with improvised/self made birdshot gun shooting at army video
Report: Brotherhood recruited Syrians and Palestinians to join protests
Folks allegedly getting payed by MB and given birtshot guns to go against anti-MB protesters and army.
Whatever the truth may be …

Posted by: b | Jul 8 2013 16:13 utc | 46

Was/is Morsi under arrest? If so, why? I don’t really understand the “mechanics” of a coup, or the military taking control or whatever you want to call it. Is that customary? If it’s even the case. Didn’t they (the military, I presume) issue warrants for some of the top officials? I’m just curious as to what they did, I don’t think I’ve read that detailed anywhere.

Posted by: JessicaJessica Sager | Jul 8 2013 16:16 utc | 47

Anonymous @ 44
Why would you assume that I support the coup??? In fact, I think both parties are scum that deserve each other.
You seem to conveniently overlook the fact that Morsi/MB was at the service of the Israelis – paid for by the US, of course.Whether you accept this or not doesn’t really matter now as the damage’s already been done..
Simply put, they lost their credibility and the people rose up against them…The MB was swept into power by the same people the got rid of them. If you remember, at the initial stages of the revolution against Mubarak, the MB didn’t get involved and stayed in the background.. They did all they could to disassociate themselves from the revolutionaries until it became convenient for them to hijack it with the help of the powers that be. f*ck em, too!!!
In the second round of the revolution (call it a coup or whatever), again, the people rose against a politically dead movement that has absolutely nothing to offer other than sectarian bigotry and divisive policies that was setting the country many years back. Again, as in the first one, the street was hijacked by the army and got rid of the MB.
The real losers here are the Egyptians that are stuck between the lousy army and the lousy brotherhood.
Egypt, throughout history, has always been ruled by foreign interests. The MB had the perfect chance in Egypt’s history and break from past and set an independent Egyptian policy. But what did we see? A MB that will bow to the US/Israel, Gulf FAT Sheikhs and worse, call for Jihad in another Arab country!!!
Good riddance I say….The army was/is corrupt beyond measure and everybody knows that but the MB’s proven to be just as bad.
Don’t worry about the army, the people will sort them out at the right time. The US’s/ Israel policy of renting out the Egyptian army is coming to an end. That policy is simply not sustainable in the long run. And I wouldn’t worry too much about Israel, either. Their strategic position in the region just keeps getting worse and worse. Their project in Syria’s failed and not only that, they now have a lot of pissed off jihadis in Egypt who feel their “democracy’s” stolen. Watch out for more fireworks in the region.

Posted by: Zico | Jul 8 2013 16:21 utc | 48

Mebbe it’s a case of Egyptian bifurcation a l’americaine, ie, Republicans vs Democrats, with the MB standing in for the Republicans and the Army, the Dems. With more poverty and guns added to the mix.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 8 2013 16:50 utc | 49

Funny. Not so surprisingly some argue along the line that morsi was elected and now is the victim of un- or even anti-democratic events. Furthermore they explain that morsi is innocent and that the army is still somehow controlled by mubaraks ghost and, of course, diverse external forces like cia which have plainly bought the Egypt army.
If there just wasn’t some tiny little facts …
*If* morsi hadn’t implemented his mb plans and hadn’t bluntly ignored the people, the army could and would not go against him. It’s morsi – and not the people or the army, but morsi – who created a situation where masses of Egyptians, incl. ex-morsi voters, were very pleased to see the army acting as “their” army and throwing out morsi.
The army at least until now behaved *very decently*. Actually they behave quite probably *too decently* considering that they face an opponent who is known to use whatever means, definitely not excluding terrorism.
Actually the peaceful passiveness is part of the problem. One might very well argue that the army must have known that mb wouldn’t accept the outcome of the Egypts voting with their feet in the streets and places and that the army does a poor job by somehow just letting things evolve rather than to take the active security responsibility the army has.
They could, for instance, have set up effective security check points to keep the level of weapons in the streets low and they could and probably should have declared sth. like “It’s over, people, your voice has been heard and acted upon. Now is the time for peacefully creating a new Egyptand this process must not be disturbed or troubled by problems or even riots on the street. We will therefore strictly control weapons and will enforce peace by all means necessary”. After all mb is supported by the same powers that created and fueled war like scenarios elsewhere and its not at all suprising if mb guys shoot at soldiers and opponents. And it’s reasonable to assume that mb is the one group who doesn’t try to avoid but possibly rather seeks riots and civil war.
As long as the army doesn’t kill thousands there is, considering the situation, simply no reason to accuse them of being aggressive or hunting down mb and the like.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 8 2013 17:00 utc | 50

@ Jessica Sager

Was/is Morsi under arrest? If so, why? I don’t really understand the “mechanics” of a coup, or the military taking control or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah Morsi is being “detained” at the Revolutionary Guards (special forces) headquarters. Rumors that he will be charged with “insulting the judiciary”. The mechanics of a coup are quiet simple, the military leadership orders their soldiers to either arrest the sitting President (Chavez coup) or kill the sitting President (Allende).
“President’s may have power but its the military who have the guns”. Is the general idea of it.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jul 8 2013 17:00 utc | 51

Zico
I didnt say you were for the coup. But sure I can ask you, are you for the coup?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 8 2013 17:20 utc | 52

46) Assad just dismissed the complete leadership of the Baath Party … either he is over confident with what is going on in Egypt or they attempted a putsch … :-))
or he is trying an army model as in Egypt …

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 17:26 utc | 53

Screw coups,and their supporters.Democracy can be disconcerting to those who oppose Islam and religion in general,as the voters in these nations are subject to much different cultural,political and living conditions, totally alien to modern westerners in our AC TV phony world of Ziomedia bias and fantasy.
Why did Morsi attack(verbally)Syria?Was that his last sop to Obomba? I guess it was too little too late.The guy definitely had the west against him and had to walk a tightrope to remain in power with the army lurking at our command.
And the NYTs says;Israel breathes easier,as Hamas is weakened.
Our masters speak.

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 8 2013 17:27 utc | 54

Lysander, if your around I wrote this with your question in mind.
The question you asked me in one of the previous threads on Egypt
Rebranding the Arab Spring to reorder the Middle East
http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.ca/2013/07/rebranding-arab-spring-to-reorder.html
Written from the point of advertising memes and perception management but full of links.
Not simplistic thinking
no right vs left
no good vs bad
If you wish to comment on it, leave it at my place.
thanks
not excluding anyone else of course, but Lysander asked

Posted by: Penny | Jul 8 2013 17:31 utc | 55

Hi Penny, thanks for asking. I’ll leave a comment when I get home from work.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 8 2013 18:24 utc | 56

I look forward to it Lysander 🙂

Posted by: Penny | Jul 8 2013 18:28 utc | 57

My view, supported to a degree by the commenters above, is that the army coup may be about to unravel. The argument, put forward by Tamarrud and the army, that this is a coup for democracy, has not held water, and large numbers have simply said this is a military coup.
Evidently western commenters are not Egyptian citizens. But it may be that the result is not that different. I heard a programme on BBC World Service of interviews with people in Upper Egypt (al-Sa’id). According to that, since Mursi’s government, there has been a devolution of government to the local grand families, whose militias defend the police.
As the army is much stronger than the MB in armements, I suppose that they will win. But not without an autocratic reconquest of the country. All idea of democracy will be lost. Not that that matters to the United States.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 8 2013 19:54 utc | 58

anonymous
You clearly don’t understand the Guiding Principle of MoA: does the political faction in country x enjoy even the most ironic support from “the US”? If so, then MoA must offer its heroic virtual support. Damn the contradictions.
If contradictions were high comedy, then b is the funniest man on earth.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 8 2013 20:15 utc | 59

Considering the ineptitude that defines our adventures in Iraq and Pakistan, one has to consider that our CIA’s meddling in the Middle East has started a conflaggeration in the Middle East that is impossible to extinguish through intervention or mediation. We started a fire that burned in an unexpected direction, razing our “leaders” expectations and goals.
What a fuckin’ mess. And these pieces of shit “leaders” in DC, as well as our “intelligence community” should hang their heads in shame.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Jul 8 2013 21:04 utc | 60

59) It is called dialectical thinking, Slothrop :-))
Above link is “Hegel for beginners” by marxists.org, however there is also a right wing Hegelian philosophical school.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2013 21:07 utc | 61

i cant take from my mind the idea,that the egyptian military will be slowly moving towards the Russian-Syrian Axis.
Yes, i know, the Egyptian military is a big recipient for US aid , but there are arguments supporting a slow but inevitable alliance with Russia, and i think Assad saw it clearly , and expressed it in that interview he gave right after the fall of Morsi :
The arguments are :
1/ The reopening of the Syrian Embassy in Cairo.
2/ The Stopping of US Aid to Egypt.
3/ The apparent similarity between the mechanism that took place in Syria, and that is taking place now in Egypt ( criminalizing the power in place , killing soldiers ,blaming the soldiers on killing manifestants etc..etc..).
4/ The steady flow of weapons inside Egypt ( we have infos that the military sized important lots of weapons carried by 200 armed men ).
5/ The fact that the army, and the whole democratic system, the judiciary system, was being slowly destroyed by the muslim brotherhood in the year they were in power, makes me think that the Army, is just fighting for its survival.
6/ The similarity between the events in Turkey regarding the decapitation of the Military establishment by the Muslim party of Erdogan.
7/ the fact that Israel was working hand in hand with the MBs, and the corrupt part of Hamas, to take over Sinai, hence choke Gaza from all directions, and force a surrender of the palestinian armed factions inside gaza.
— this could be confirmed by the current closing of Rafah crossing, wich is a move by the egyptian army to destabilize the Hamas leadership that is totally working with the MB.
My guess, is that Egypt will slowly lose US backing as it slowly fights for its survival as a state, avoiding the explosion along sectarian lines, just like the US did in Syria, in Irak, and lebanon;

Posted by: Nabil | Jul 8 2013 21:30 utc | 62

The garbage that passes for punditry suggests Pinochet as a model for Egypt.

Posted by: Maracatu | Jul 8 2013 21:45 utc | 63

Agree with Nabil on the possible/probable shift of the Egyptian army towards Russia.
The situation in Egypt will deteriorate further and the risk of moving towards an Algerian style conflict is I think very real. The casualties and bloodshed will increase and with it the likelihood that the early termination of the Ikhwan experiment being labeled a coup by the US. The army will need another backer.

Posted by: Kerim | Jul 8 2013 21:51 utc | 64

Bevin@ 37
“As someone who was happy to see the Brotherhood’s corrupt rule ended I am also appalled by the military’s actions today. Morsi should not be in custody. The new regime is as illegitimate as the old”
Then what on earth is there to be happy about?
If the old boss is the same as the new boss,and it is, what is the difference that one would feel “happy” about?
Should you respond, refrain from using strawman tactics.
thanks.

Posted by: Penny | Jul 8 2013 22:00 utc | 65

Random quote of the day
“What makes it simpler is that as long as the army has the dominant role in foreign and security policy, it doesn’t matter so much who controls parliament or the president’s office,” Mark Heller, an Egypt expert at Tel Aviv’s Institute for National Security Studies.
therefore there was no coup

Posted by: Penny | Jul 8 2013 22:01 utc | 66

@Anon: Every sentence you write is wrong.
You accused those of us who support the Egyptian people’s right to protest and topple the MB as using the term “zionist stooge” and being overly worried about the role of Israel in Egypt. On the contrary, it is supporters of the MB who are using terms like “zionist stooge” on MOA. User “guest” I believe (not guest77, me) was the first.
I don’t know if it is because you aren’t paying attention or are being deceptive. But the record is clear and all here.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 8 2013 22:13 utc | 67

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35474.htm
America’s Plan B in Egypt: Bring Back the Old Regime
By Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya
July 08, 2013 “Information Clearing House – “Strategic Culture Foundation”– The road that has been taken in Egypt is a dangerous one. A military coup has taken place in Egypt while millions of Egyptians have cheered it on with little thought about what is replacing the Muslim Brotherhood and the ramifications it will have for their society. Many people in cheering crowds have treated the Egyptian military’s coup like it was some sort of democratic act. They fail to remember who the generals of the Egyptian military work for. Those who are ideologically opposed to the Muslim Brotherhood have also cheered the military takeover without realizing that the military takeover ultimately serves imperialist behaviour. The cheering crowds have not considered the negative precedent that has been set.
Egypt was never cleansed of corrupt figures by the Muslim Brotherhood, which instead joined them. Key figures in Egypt, like Al-Azhar’s Grand Mufti Ahmed Al-Tayeb (who was appointed by Mubarak), criticized the Muslim Brotherhood when Mubarak was in power, then denounced Mubarak and supported the Muslim Brotherhood when it gained power, and then denounced the Muslim Brotherhood when the military removed it from power. The disgraced Muslim Brotherhood has actually been replaced by a far worse assembly. These figures, whatever they call themselves, have only served power and never democracy. The military’s replacements for the Muslim Brotherhood—be it the new interim president or the leaders of the military junta—were either working with or serving the Muslim Brotherhood and, even before them, Hosni Mubarak’s regime.
etc

Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2013 22:21 utc | 68

@alexno: “All idea of democracy will be lost.”
I’m curious as to why you think this. Certainly the people in the street haven’t forgotten their power, they just put on quite a show of it.
My guess is that very very few of the revolutionaries are pleased with army rule, though they may prefer it to the dead end the MB was very quickly taking them down.
They have now toppled two leaders – three if you count the pressure that forced the Morsi election in the first place.
Why not four?

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 8 2013 22:21 utc | 69

Peter McCabe ‏@classican 49m
@snarwani #McCain’s always a good indicator who the Zionists are supporting. He’s just convinced me the 2nd Egyptian Revolution is for real
Retweeted by Sharmine Narwani
===================
Ben Hubbardبين هابرد ‏@NYTBen 5h Two guys kicked me out of Tahrir, said foreign journos “forbidden.” Didn’t care for press card or call to press office where I’m registered.Retweeted by Sharmine Narwani
(NYT given the boot from Tahrir!)
=================
Sharmine Narwani ‏@snarwani 2h Would like to see western journos write articles about WHY they think western journos are being tossed out of Tahrir. #Egypt #AGoodStart

Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2013 22:32 utc | 70

“Then what on earth is there to be happy about?”
The manner, Penny, in which both Mubarak and Morsi were forced out, by mass popular uprisings, gives many people including me satisfaction.
It is surprising that this should require explanation, unless you hew to the cynic’s view that since the new boss may be as bad as the old boss there is no point in taking on the old boss.
Reactionaries have been saying this sort of thing for milennia.
They are wrong.
What we have been witnessing in Egypt is not an ignorant and foolish mob, deluded by foreign agents and unaware of their own interests, playing into the eager hands of an Army which works for imperialism, but an awakening of millions tired of being exploited and cheated. They remain awake/
That makes some people unhappy, even fearful but not me. Now let us watch to see what happens next.
There is no easy way out for the Army. It has sticks to offer but no carrots. In fact it will soon run short of the wherewithal to keep its soldiers up with the rate of inflation of basic commodities.
Will the US, in gratitude for all the Generals have done, offer them anything? Tear gas and shotguns, no doubt but nothing more. They will tell the Generals to get tough. They will offer them all the intelligence they can collect, make it easy for them to round up the Egyptian Mandelas and other dangerous types. They will offer them death squads and torturers, in case they have none, and expertise on detention camps.
What they cannot offer them is economic growth, markets for exports or debt relief. Things will get worse, much worse, quickly. As they do so, in Egypt, they will be getting worse in Europe too and in America.
Where people will start to say “How come we are giving them $1.3 billion, when we cannot afford to pay teachers and firemen in Scranton or filter drinking water? What do we have a military for if we cannot threaten foreigners instead of bribing them?”
As we obsess about the superstructure, the diplomats, politicians, media, the Academy, their schemes, promises, theories and games, it is easy to lose sight of basic reality.
Which is that the climate is changing, at the very least enormous investment will be needed just to maintain what exists. But in all likelihood, other chickens, chickens like vultures with wingspans like eagles, are coming home to roost: our forests and arable lands are in danger of exhaustion. Bees and other pollinating insects are dying off. Water courses are drying up. Aquifers disappearing. Immense amounts of radioactive pollution are pouring into the environment. Billions are starving, and other billions poisoning themselves with adulterated foods.
And what is the US government doing about any of these things? The Imperial regime that we are constantly assured knows everything and controls whatever it chooses?
The answer is nothing. It chooses to look the other way. Far from being all-powerful it is astonishingly impotent. As the bees and the monarch butterflies disappear, as the ice cap melts and the weather changes, as floods inundate cities and while fires of an unprecedented size and intensity rage elsewhere.
Something has got to give, and soon.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 8 2013 22:34 utc | 71

@68 – “They fail to remember who the generals of the Egyptian military work for.”
I don’t aim this at you brian, I know you didn’t write the piece. It strikes me though: Isn’t this the worst kind of patronizing (dare I say “orientialism”)? Telling those millions in Egypt that they “fail to remember” or simply don’t know what they’re doing? My guess is that DO know what they’re doing, and are prepared to do it again in short order.
The worst possible outcome is for the MB to fight this on their own and not rejoin the opposition to do it. That will mean the destruction of Egypt and all the worst fears about the MB will have turned out to be well-founded. Hopefully it is not a self-fulfilling prophecy.
There is nothing to be happy about in the army coup. But there is plenty to be happy about in the protests that spurned it. In the short term there is plenty to be happy about in that no Egyptian fighters are headed towards Syria. In the long term perhaps the Egyptian people can look forward to real self-determination, and not simply a game of musical chairs amongst the elite.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 8 2013 22:35 utc | 72

‘The military coup that removed Egypt’s first democratically elected president, Mohammed Morsi, on Wednesday July 3, 2013, after serving only a single year in office, will have far reaching implications in the months, years, and decades to come.
Following the announcement that Morsi was no longer in power and the nation’s Constitution had been suspended, the Egyptian military arrested dozens of prominent Muslim Brotherhood leaders and shut down Islamist-run media outlets. The next day, supporters of the deposed president were attacked during a pro-Morsi protest. Today, the army opened fire on a crowd of Morsi supporters in Cairo, as they marched toward a military facility.
Terms such as “democratic coup,” “people’s revolution,” “people’s coup,” and “popular uprising” have emerged from champions of Morsi’s overthrow who have long denounced the president as claiming dictatorial powers and acting like a “new Pharaoh” in Egypt. Morsi’s Egyptian opponents have found common cause with right-wing media entities here in the United States, some of whom have made comparisons of Morsi to Hitler and Mussolini and called the Muslim Brotherhood “the new form of Nazis.” Writing in Commentary Magazine, Jonathan Tobin claimed that “Morsi and the rest of his authoritarian crew [have] already topped the excesses of the Mubarak regime in only a year” in power and, as he has done before, condemned President Obama for not overtly supporting regime change.’
etc
http://www.wideasleepinamerica.com/2013/07/mainstream-us-media-tale-of-two-coups.html

Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2013 22:38 utc | 73

‘Shortly after the Morsi administration was toppled and an interim government installed, a White House statement noted that Washington “does not support particular individuals or political parties, but we are committed to the democratic process and respect for the rule of law.” State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki had previously insisted, “We’re not taking sides in this.”’
http://www.wideasleepinamerica.com/2013/07/mainstream-us-media-tale-of-two-coups.html
another eg of the brazeness of US policy makers

Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2013 22:40 utc | 74

Posted by: Nabil | Jul 8, 2013 5:30:06 PM | 62
Russia is trying to protect its gas market in europe.china is acquiring resources in Africa such as Libyan oil.the usa is offereing twinkies to the islamists
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/politics/04obama.text.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Posted by: mcohen | Jul 8 2013 22:40 utc | 75

Kerim | Jul 8, 2013 5:51:57 PM | 64 (Nabil) & #75, Would be a card most did not see, and Russian’s backdoor and antidote for Syria. We are talking about one of the Russians problems, a loss of a port and a regional footprint. But Russia need one more partner – If Russia (Force) and China (Investment) that would be a huge and dramatic political and economic shift. Russia and China would have the golden door into Europe and more or less manage the Global shipping & Rail chains with Egypt all this coupled with the flow of energy related needs, buggerme that is big.
Likewise Syria would regain its standing, US and anyone would in turn need to worry, well, play a very different tune. China has already made the headway with Israel and the Rail transport system, so it’s decked its bases. Russia would now have the final linkage and location for its expanding energy programme.
The only downside for Egypt, it has two new partners and it is not very good with partners, I suppose with a solid leadership that could change. In that one thing is for sure, China just does business, nothing else, no political or cultural changes are required, all it wants is the access and it pay’s it way without ;If’s’.
In all this would be a huge game changer if it was something?

Posted by: kev | Jul 8 2013 23:33 utc | 76

For whatever you may think of him, you certainly can’t accuse him of “islamophobia”.

Tariq Ramadan, a prominent academic and grandson of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan al Banna, took to his Twitter page Tuesday to say he believes Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi, a leading member of the brotherhood, should resign.
Tariq Ramadan ✔ @tariqramadan
Egypt:the situation is explosive.Morsi should resign while negotiating a plan to establish a broad national alliance, and avoid a bloodbath

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 9 2013 0:08 utc | 77

bevin @ 71: Great post, I concur.
“Something has got to give, and soon.” I certainly hope so.

Posted by: ben | Jul 9 2013 0:09 utc | 78

Al Jazeera staff resign after ‘biased coverage’
Cairo: The news channel Al Jazeera Mubasher Misr saw 22 members of staff resign on Monday in Egypt over what they alleged was coverage that was out of sync with real events in Egypt.
Anchor Karem Mahmoud announced that the staff had resigned in protest against what he called “biased coverage” of the events in Egypt by the Qatari broadcaster.
Mahmoud said that the resignations had been brought about by a perceived lack of commitment and Al Jazeera professionalism in media coverage, adding that “the management in Doha provokes sedition among the Egyptian people and has an agenda against Egypt and other Arab countries.”
Mahmoud added that the management used to instruct each staff member to favour the Muslim Brotherhood.

http://gulfnews.com/news/region/egypt/al-jazeera-staff-resign-after-biased-coverage-1.1206924

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 9 2013 0:28 utc | 79

http://occupywallstreet.net/story/chronicles-egyptian-revolution-rebirth
It’s slightly patronizing and definitely biased towards the “young, educated” element of the revolution, but it is a view from Egypt all the same.
Sorry for the all caps. That’s how it copy and pasted.

IT’S NOT OVER YET. IT’S JUST THE END OF EPISODE ONE AND THE BEGINNING OF EPISODE TWO. WE MIGHT BE ON THE RIGHT TRACK, OR CREATING A NEW NIGHTMARE. ONLY TIME WILL TELL AND ONLY EGYPTIANS WILL MAKE THE CHANGE.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 9 2013 0:38 utc | 80

How Egypt Killed Political Islam
by SHAMUS COOKE
The rebirth of the Egyptian revolution ushered in the death of the first Muslim Brotherhood government. But some near-sighted analysts limit the events of Egypt to a military coup. Yes, the military is desperately trying to stay relevant — given the enormous initiative of the Egyptian masses — but the generals realize their own limitations in this context better than anybody. This wasn’t a mere re-shuffling at the top of society, but a flood from the bottom.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/08/how-egypt-killed-political-islam/#.UdtarupQ-eY.twitter
Tawfik Okasha, Anti-Morsi Egyptian TV Personality, Calling For People To Surround U.S. Embassy Cairo Tomorrow Against Obama
Obama backpedaling trying to deny they have been supporting the Muslim Brotherhood, not too many in Egypt are buying that and many are disturbed at Obama.
After Morsi won the Egyptian election, Okasha claimed the US and the Muslim Brotherhood had been in cahoots to rig the elections.
Of course, surrounding the U.S. Embassy would not endear the Obama administration to the anti-Morsi group and this can place our Embassy in great danger.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 9 2013 0:43 utc | 81

guest77 | Jul 8, 2013 8:28:03 PM | 79, It was, I watched it yesterday, and made a comment here (Not this post, but added it) to that effect. It was hardcore, more or less had one MB speaker constantly ranting and had a speech ready, it was not bias, that would be an understatement, it was clearly driving one side:
“Hamada’s fall — surfaced Saturday and quickly became the most talked-about footage of the political unrest in Egypt. Anti-Morsi demonstrators returned to Field Marshal Ahmed Ismail Street on Sunday chanting, “Down with the murderers of children!”
It’s tragic but it’s expected, also sectarian violence will have further impact. The Muslim Brotherhood has accused the Coptic hierarchy of being part of a conspiracy to remove their man from power, the classic, pick on a minority, since the outing of Mori, the body count is well beyond 16 just within the Coptic community. This was not the Military, but made to seem so on Aljazeera, they have been airing a one sided BH ranting with a BH spokesman, he did not talk much about the deaths, just BH’s right to be in power, revenge, continue to protest so the world can see, in fact sounds very much like the Syrian opposition, the guy could have written the script, the words flowed from his mouth- it was all political and BH, in fact he relished the fact these deaths occurred, much like Anon in her last post and grinning like a Kitty who got some cream, just displays the madness and the sickness in the ideological mayhem. “
Posted by: kev | Jul 8, 2013 4:57:23 AM | 110
The sad part is all media seems bought and are immune from causing harm. They do not seem to realize that there fuel = Deaths.

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 0:46 utc | 82

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 8, 2013 8:28:03 PM | 79
AJ cant have too many staff left!

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2013 1:10 utc | 83

@83 lol. The sheik better learn how to run a camera.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 9 2013 2:06 utc | 84

One thing you can count on is that Washington will continue to give Egypt’s Generals their $1.5 billion yearly stipend. Another thing is that the Palestinians will go on receiving the green weenie from any figurehead whom the military allows to symbolically hold the reins of power. The generals also must have known that the old geezer from the Mubarak era who ran against Morsi was a pure loser; but perhaps they still hoped Morsi would generally stay inside the lines permissible behavior. Tragically, the effect of this unmasking of military rule (call it a coup if you like) is fundamentally counter-revolutionary.
The people in Tahrir Square were responsible for the ouster of Mubarak; but the revolution was derailed by the most depressing presidential election, a stage-managed and deterministic affair, which was described as democracy. The process of transition went from simply bad, to doomed, when the constitution-writing process was hijacked by the prim and virtue-guided, who were not content to shape political policy, and to think and act cautiously when it came to the sensibility of all Egyptians. No, the Brotherhood had nursed resentment for decades, and would accept nothing short of shoehorning the whole of Egyptian society into conformity with their beliefs.
The hunger in Egypt is real hunger; the thirst for justice is also real. We watched the courage and the mostly non-violent, and patient and disciplined resistance, to the forces of repression that included killing, arrest and torture. This was the state of affairs the people had endured for a long time, and would no longer accept. Civil war was not in the air during the former struggle in Tahrir Square; but now such a thing is claimed to be possible. Why is that? Is it because the army has deposed a so-called democratic process which they carefully helped to construct, and which they sabotaged basically, with their own ends and needs in mind? What is tragic is the counter-revolutionary process, the opening for warfare in the streets, the disempowering of the people’s will that is shrewdly disguised as their empowerment.

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 9 2013 2:44 utc | 85

Having started and trained security companies and staff and seen what can occur when security entities go rouge because of poor oversight and regulations, including the gray area(s) in how/where it operates-I have a question: The the recent shootings and deaths, main shooting cause (Media) was shotgun (Gauge?, in that, and from my experience 2 groups that tend to be armed with Shotguns are either Police but limited to need and role and the other ‘Private Security sectors’ with a very high ratio. Next it is the weapon of choice for Farm, rural settings (As it is also good for hunting and fending off Wild animals) including home protection, the latter more than likely not the case in Egypt. In the case of Egypt, long arms are prohibited, so not too sure how this works, and if that includes the PSS, in that light I have just thrown it out there. I do know an AK is about $300 on the black market in Egypt.
Like many Countries Egypt has a number of unregulated PS firms, these vary in numbers from 100 into the 1000’s, most are connected, in that’ Businessmen, politicians, Police or Ex-police and if needed are a small army. It is also big business! Statistics indicating a 300 percent increase in homicides and a 12-fold increase in armed robberies since the 2011 revolution. Private security actors — either in the form of trained guards or hired muscle — are increasingly filling this vacuum. The problem is who they are, many are radical, the vetting is abysmal, in fact you can see one security office fired from a past post for theft, threat/intimidation etc and hired within days for another security firm (Saves on training, it’s just numbers and they know he/she will take less coin). From what I heard, MB and Al-Qaida linked entities are very active in this role – It’s Business – brother, and a legit method of having a force.
Ihab Youssef, a former police officer who now heads the risk management and security group Risk Free, identifies three main problem areas in the private security sector: an absence of a government master plan, no oversight of security guards and their qualifications, and, finally, no benefits, such as social and life insurance. As a result, Youssef says, security guards have “no sense of loyalty to the job.” In short, who pays get what they want -I would say that is a very fair and basic assessment.
Egypt may well be heading the way of Iraq and other post conflict regions, estimated 2 million people employed in private security firms, so figures state at the moment its over 50% of employment (Includes cleaners, maids, caretakers under that umbrella) — more than are employed in the police force, (more than the military) — performing policing functions, most are semi literate, have little to no training – it’s a problem…
Found a few links http://carnegieendowment.org/2013/06/17/private-sector-in-postrevolution-egypt/gam5
http://www.afdb.org/fileadmin/uploads/afdb/Documents/Project-and-Operations/Brochure%20Egypt%20Anglais.pdf
I myself have worked in many Countries where the PSS was used as a force, tool ‘for’ those in power and those in Business, a very real threat and an ‘Army’. In terms of DDR programmes, even National security it is an all too often overlooked risk, as many assume it ‘Security’.
Thoughts?

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 2:51 utc | 86

86) That is why Egyptians love their army. As El Baradei said in March -it is either Islamist militias or the army, and he would prefer the army. Thanks for explaining it in detail.
Libya is next door. I hear, Muslim brotherhood figures say Sinai attacks would stop if Morsy gets reinstated. It will get them nowhere, fortunately. Unfortunately or fortunately for Egyptians the Egyptian army has a popular mandate for crackdown. That crackdown will include any liberal revolutionary.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 5:34 utc | 87

“Unfortunately or fortunately for Egyptians the Egyptian army has a popular mandate for crackdown. That crackdown will include any liberal revolutionary.”

@Somebody;
How do you know that it is a “popular” mandate? what do you mean by “popular”? Do you mean that “crackdown” is a mandate supported by the majority of the Egyptians? If yes, then how do you know that it is supported by the majority? And if not then, what do you mean by “popular”?

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jul 9 2013 5:57 utc | 88

@Pirouz, take it in context, don’t get all flustered, read: “Unfortunately or fortunately for Egyptians” ‘somebody’ was being specific to the ‘Army’ and that is true.

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 6:30 utc | 89

kev;
You mean army has a “popular” mandate to crackdown?

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jul 9 2013 6:52 utc | 90

@Pirouz, your Iranian right, and your lost in translation a bit. ‘Somebody’ did not mean the ‘crackdown’ via popular will of the people or it is supported in by citizens as a popular choice. Rather – it’s what they tend to do, their MO (Historic) is ‘Crackdown’ in such given situations. Maybe if one wrote “preferred mandate” or just “mandate for crackdown” – By ‘mandate’ that is not a dating thing or escort service in that manner (Humor).
In that, I could be wrong and then I am lost in translation, I guess we will just need to wait for somebody to confirm or explain.

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 7:08 utc | 91

88) This is how it works and how people’s needs get used to govern them – Maslows hierarchy of needs
Egyptian people watch Syria and Libya – guess what their choice is. As I understand Egypt’s political situation, it is the Muslim Brotherhood against everybody else, Morsy’s best election result in an alternative second round was 52% with something like a 52 % turnout against an ex regime figure. His result in the first round was 25 % with with a turnout around 43 % – presumably that is the maximum reach of the Muslim Brotherhood on its own.
If the Muslim Brotherhood now plays the borderline civil war card – they are to weak for a full blown civil war but strong enough for terrorist acts, they will play into the hand of a military state supported by the population – pretty much what happens in Syria.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 7:27 utc | 92

somebody
“That crackdown will include any liberal revolutionary.””
That makes zero sense.
Thats why neo-liberal El’baradei is up there as contesters?
This is a crackdown against MB and political Islam.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 7:38 utc | 93

The New Yorker has an eye withness report on the shooting of the protesters.
It was clearly provoked though there can be no certaincy by whom. If the Muslim Brotherhood continue to call for martyrdom they open themselves up to all kind of ugly suspicion.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 7:39 utc | 94

93) Of course it makes sense, it does not matter who challenges power.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2013 7:40 utc | 95

Aonon, so it should be (This is a crackdown against MB and political(Radical) Islam)- The people see that without economic freedom ‘political’ freedom is worthless, that may seem a capitalistic view, yet true. The MB offers suppressive Religion in a political dressing, that can’t feed you! It just feeds the Brotherhood and it’s Islamic rule agenda, much can be said for any state/Country, though not necessarily with ‘that mix’; however the danger here is, it’s not contained, as a large segment of which has nothing to do with Egypt or the people; it’s just power and the spread of the ideology and control of the region, and yes Egyptians will be paying for that, and thus still in poverty and hungry…

Posted by: kev | Jul 9 2013 7:54 utc | 96

somebody
That didnt respond to my question. You said the “That crackdown will include any liberal revolutionary.”. You have obviously no idea what you are saying.
And knock that MB are “radical islam” off, nonsense you begin to like Netanyahu.
What “suspicion” would that be for people to say that they wont give up fighting for their rights?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 8:01 utc | 97

My post above is to “kev” not “somebody”.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 8:19 utc | 98

somebody
Your argument makes no sense since the liberal camp are with the military.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 9 2013 8:22 utc | 99

guess who now owns Blackwater?! http://politicalblindspot.org/yes-monsanto-actually-did-buy-the-blackwater-mercenary-group/
Monsantos very own private army: trained by US etc at taxayers expence and others coming to a community near you

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2013 8:36 utc | 100