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June 25, 2013
Open Thread 2013-12
Comments
Penny, read William Blum’s piece on Snowden, I think you’ll find it enlightening
Killing Hope
Posted by: William Bowles | Jun 27 2013 16:34 utc | 101
Julian Assange and 9/11.
Questioning the official story beyond the well some things are unexplained and we need a new investigation and security heads should roll is instant metaphorical death, and even such statements are past sell-date now.
Note, just some examples: Chomsky, Chris Hedges, Amy Goodman, Naomi Klein, all refuse to touch 9/11. Oh, Counterpunch, to cite a site that does have some good articles.
There are limits, lines in the sand.
You can’t be an accepted dissident, critic, maverick, journalist, academic, book author, blogger, if you cross that line. The myth of a devastating radical Arab / Muslim / Jihadist Terrorist attack on the US is to be upheld at ALL costs.
Assange’s biz is leaks, afaik he has never actually interpreted anything, or given out theories beyond the necessity for transparency and sharing or exposure of ‘secret’ information, etc. politically following a social-democrat line.
Wikileaks published 9/11 pager intercepts. Not much has been made of them..
.
http://911.wikileaks.org/
Wikileaks has never published anything consequent, damning, or interesting about 9/11. (afaik)
William, @ 76, 77, particularly on bad days I agree with our pov, I’ve posted in that vein before. To better understand what is going on….how and why the old order (say from post ww2) is imploding and/or being jettisoned, probably a bit of both. What are the driving forces? How do the results slowly unfold? So, arguing the other side of the coin, that the break-up of many countries is economically damaging, to the US amongst others, to keep it short…
Posted by: Noirette | Jun 27 2013 16:38 utc | 102
@100
Exactly! Im also tired of Chomskian half-believers! Assange is a fraud! Klappe zu, Affe tot! Now I think if Ed is for real, he is going to avoid Assangel! I do not trust Correa either!
Posted by: Kal | Jun 27 2013 16:52 utc | 103
“No one is denigrating Snowden’s intentions because we don’t know what his intentions are …Unless you are privy to some specific personal info?”
No Penny, I have no private information. In fact I’m taking it on trust that Snowden exists. And I have never seen either Moscow or Hawaii, so I’m assuming both of them too.
As to his intentions, I can only go by what it is reported that he has said, which is in the Guardian. Of course he could be lying, if he exists.
As to the inconsequentiality, or otherwise, of the information that Snowden has provided: nothing can prevent the state and its mouthpiece bourgeois media from attempting to distract attention, from the crimes with which they are charged, by playing up every personal angle, from pole dancers to Espionage charges.
What we can do, however, is to refuse to get drawn into hunting the red herrings and come back to the question of what the implications of mass surveillance, on a scale never before conceived of, are. And how best to adjust to a reality which is still in the very early stages of unfolding.
By this I mean that while the NSA GCHQ programmes are already collecting vast amounts of data the business of analysing, processing and acting upon that data has barely begun. In human terms the analysts are still, as can be guessed by the stupidity of their leaders, not far advanced from the level of the cops climbing up telephone poles with crocodile clips and steaming open letters with a kettle.
Posted by: bevin | Jun 27 2013 17:38 utc | 104
@88, English (or ‘engrish’ actually) usage in anime or just plain jpop is quite widespread, or more exactly abusive, so it’s obvious that all that new language ‘adquisitions’ will be showing up more and more as kids and youngsters grow up and take on ‘serious’ jobs.
I think I read somewhere about adults, parents or grandparents, not understanding the language used in Anime anymore ;).
Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 27 2013 18:02 utc | 105
Not in any English language media:
Demonstration yesterday in the Shia part of Saudi Arabia after two people were killed by security forces.
Video
@Harry #
Re the Tartus base. This from Strategic Culture Foundation:
Russian Navy Pulls Personnel Out of Syria Base – Deputy FM
News | 27.06.2013 | 19:26
Russia currently has no military personnel at its resupply facility in the Syrian port of Tartus, a senior diplomat said, though an expert affiliated with the Ministry of Defense downplayed it as a possible temporary measure.
“Currently, there is no one in Syria from the Russian Defense Ministry,” Deputy Foreign Minister Mikhail Bogdanov told the Al-Hayat international pan-Arabic newspaper.
“We never, at any time, had a real military base in Tartus… That center has no military or strategic significance. It never did and it doesn’t now,” Bogdanov added, speaking in an interview that was first published last Friday in Arabic.
The naval maintenance center in Tartus, established in Soviet times, remains Russia’s last military foothold outside the former Soviet Union. The facility, used for the maintenance and resupply of Russian warships in the Mediterranean, had a staff of “several dozen,” Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in February.
Methinks that there’s a lot of playing with words going on here. No base, merely technical support for its Med fleet? When he says no real base, I think he’s probably telling the truth if by base he means a physical space, surrounded by walls with everything needed inside.
The comment about ‘no military significance’ obviously sidesteps the issue of 16 warships based there.
Likewise the comment about ‘no one from the Russian Foreign Ministry’ in Syria. But what about the other branches of the Russian government? I think it’s called diplomacy.
Posted by: William Bowles | Jun 27 2013 18:49 utc | 107
bevin @ 104
why do you keep saying “if he exists”
“In fact I’m taking it on trust that Snowden exists”
“Of course he could be lying, if he exists”
I never suggested such a thing and yet you have said it multiple times in one response as if you are responding to something stated by myself
I find that very disingenuous. And question your motivation in doing so?
@Penny, kal
My point is that a whole elaborate, unbelievable myth has been made up, with all the force of a religion to surround it, used to denigrate effective activists and action.
A myth has been created that makes no sense and actually takes away from how it could really have been accomplished by right wing sections of the US government – not through use of “drone planes” and “thermite” and “NORAD drills” but by the use of 19 men, mostly Saudis, as part of an al Qaeda plot, deliberately ignored. But if one wants to talk about the real crime and what came out of it – and NOT talk about all the fake factoids and elaborate mission impossible invented bullshit invented to obfuscate it, you’re a “gatekeeper”.
It’s ridiculous.
@Ozawa : if to believe it was “an inside job” means I have to believe drone planes and thermite and impossible engineering feats and perfectly execution by a practically omnipotent force, then NO. If I have to take “loose change” as some kind of gospel, then NO. I can’t subscribe to that theory.
If an “inside job” mean that somewhere in the bowels of al Qaeda hell – that CIA creation – a plot was hatched to benefit the worst reactionary elements across the planet – including those in the US – that seems a little more plausible.
But for someone who is trying to figure out some kind of “conspiracy” going on here in the blog posts… if that’s where your analysis is focused, then frankly I don’t think it carries much weight anyhow.
Posted by: guest77 | Jun 27 2013 20:00 utc | 110
“Exactly! Im also tired of Chomskian half-believers! Assange is a fraud! Klappe zu, Affe tot! Now I think if Ed is for real, he is going to avoid Assangel! I do not trust Correa either!”
Exactly. You’re an isolated, fearful soul. Who do you trust kal? You’re one of the few who has figured it out, and and one of even fewer to speak their mind. Everyone else is a fraud.
You’re world view is this: everyone who has ever risen to any position of influence did so not on their own merits, not through independent actions creating their own political space, but they rose due to some outside force. The rest of humanity is unable to discern between truth an untruth. All those millions who believe in the words of those you named – all hopeless dupes if not outright frauds.
There is no place for independent action in your world. Not place for challenging power and emerging victorious. Even those who have seemingly risen fro the bottom are in fact placed onto us from above. There are no heroes – no one makes it out alive. Only ultra-powerful forces that control all.
Sounds like a sad little impotent world. It sounds like the exact world THEY would like to create.
Posted by: guest77 | Jun 27 2013 20:08 utc | 111
@Penny “btw: it is not inconsequential that Snowden’s leak has turned into ‘where in the world is Carmen Sandiego. It’s a crying shame”
It could well have turned into “Snowden is in Leavenworth”. Is that preferable?
If you are saying “It didn’t have to be like this. Snowden could be at home. This is part of the plan of distraction.” Then I think you are flat out wrong. Things happen. Not every event is part of some overwhelming path towards victory or loss.
Posted by: guest77 | Jun 27 2013 20:14 utc | 112
guest 77 @ 12
don’t assume, ask for clarification
“It could well have turned into “Snowden is in Leavenworth”. Is that preferable?”
Nonsense
plenty of other whistleblowers have not been incarcerated
stop fear mongering
leave that to the media and the government
@Penny
“Nonsense. plenty of other whistleblowers have not been incarcerated”
Snowden isn’t your average whistleblower Penny. This is far more akin to what Manning did than what Thomas Drake or someone like he did.
Are you seriously suggesting that Snowden would be free if he remained in the US? That’s laughable.
Posted by: guest77 | Jun 27 2013 21:12 utc | 114
@Penny
“This where’s waldo nonsense has moved the NSA spying right off the radar”
As if that’s the intent of his flight, and not a failure of the media? If Snowden leaked from his living room chair, the media would be raving about what color it was Penny. The media circus is not some calculated result of his flight, the media circus is the media circus.
“The misspelling of the middle name “news”??!!””
Yes Penny, this is EXACTLY how shit like this falls apart. Exactly the kind of ridiculous little human mishap that foils the plans of the best of them. Why it is news is because we’re supposed to be on the “Get Snowden” team and we’re supposed to wonder “how could this happen?”
Private Jessica Lynch. That was government concocted theater. Compare the two events in style and substance.
Posted by: guest77 | Jun 27 2013 21:24 utc | 115
This from the excellent Oriental Review on the situation in Syria, specifically the USUK madness:
The White House is placing stakes on a renegade who has no tangible support of any notable group in the Syrian society. Persisting in blind ambition for regime change in Syria, the US administration will yield no result but another war-torn area with the US Marines protecting a stooge in Damascus.
The echo of the Syrian conflict is already fuelling religious tensions in Lebanon and other countries in the region. The prolonged sectarian showdown in Iraq has gained new momentum. It is very likely that a new Sunni-Shia war has been designed by the global elites who triggered the conflict in Syria more than two years ago. The impact it would have in Europe and the United States itself was no doubt foreseen and will be used to further tighten the grip of electronic surveillance on these societies.
The public reaction in the West on Putin’s performance at the G8 suggests that there exists a conscious or perhaps unconscious awareness of this here. Putin has successfully adopted the trend to reformat the matrix imposed on the minds in the West. Western politicians are so entangled in their web of lies, particularly on the Syrian issue, that a reasonable and straightforward speech by the Russian leader based on irrefutable facts and common sense could leave them dumb, curious, and stunned. And the people are able to sense who is standing on the right side of history.
— Syria: the Art of Standing on the Right Side of History
Posted by: William Bowles | Jun 27 2013 21:36 utc | 116
More on the Russian presence in Syria, this time from RT:
“The Russian Defense Ministry really has no military servicemen at the navy base in the Syrian port of Tartus, because the base is being serviced only by Russian civilian personnel” reads the statement distributed by the ministry’s press service on Thursday.
“The personnel are working according to the everyday schedule. We cannot talk about any evacuation from Tartus in this case. Tartus remains the official base and repair facility for Russian ships in the Mediterranean Sea and it continues to execute its tasks in line with its purpose,” the statement reads.
The press service stressed that earlier media statements about personnel withdrawal from Tartus were presented “extremely incorrectly from the real situation’s point of view.”
The report about the total evacuation of Russian personnel, both military and civilian from the Syrian port of Tartus was distributed by the Russian business daily Vedomosti with reference to an unnamed source in the Defense Ministry. Vedomosti’s source commented on an earlier statement made by Deputy Foreign Minister Mikhail Bogdanov, who told the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper that, “Presently, the Russian Defense Ministry has not a single person stationed in Syria.”
Russia currently has a 16-ship flotilla in the Mediterranean Sea, but none of them has called at the port of Tartus in recent months and there were no reports of such plans. The ships were deployed to the region to fight terrorism and piracy. — Russian Defense Ministry refutes reports of Syria evacuation
Posted by: William Bowles | Jun 27 2013 21:44 utc | 117
William Bowles @ 101
thanks, good read..
amazingly the Agee saga rang a bell
didn’t read the book but I recall reading something about this fella
“A common Agency tactic was writing editorials and phoney news stories to be knowingly published by Latin American media with no indication of the CIA authorship or CIA payment to the media. The propaganda value of such a “news” item might be multiplied by being picked up by other CIA stations in Latin America who would disseminate it through a CIA-owned news agency or a CIA-owned radio station. Some of these stories made their way back to the United States to be read or heard by unknowing North Americans.”
that struck me!
Not only on how little has changed but on how much wider, globally the propaganda is spread. Via the NATO media and all the lying whores, oops I mean talking heads, oops I mean journalists
Like that Chivers
And who can forget Marie Colvin
and others, so many others..
Before Snowden there was a fellow named Tice?
Heard of him at all?
He blew the whistle and yet, fell off the radar
I am going to find a recent interview I heard with him and put it up at my place.
Guest @ 115
G-“As if that’s the intent of his flight, and not a failure of the media?”
Did I say that? No I didn’t. So, what is your point?
Unless I have explicitly stated something to that effect.. don’t assign your assumptions to me
G-“Yes Penny, this is EXACTLY how shit like this falls apart. Exactly the kind of ridiculous little human mishap that foils the plans of the best of them”
I absolutely do not buy such nonsense
Addressed that at my place.
“When a document of such importance is prepared it is expected that all i’s are dotted and all t’s are crossed and NO, I do not buy incompetence.”
I have seen a good load of legal documents in my days…
That is bogus.
You accept it as you choose, you cannot expect everyone to believe such baloney.
http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.ca/2013/06/russ-tice-and-truth-about-nsa-spying.html
Russ Tice
NSA leaker. Why is no one paying attention?
Kal, maybe you will find this enlightening?
I don’t know?
Let me know at my place
ty
guest77,
I welcome your attacks, and am glad to hear that you think al-Qaeda did 911. Yes, the conspiracy is that talented Muslims with boxcutters turned the US into a police state and led to a series of wars in the Middle East.
Posted by: Ozawa | Jun 28 2013 1:03 utc | 121
Media mirrors:
The media in the US – ‘American held hostage in China’ or in some outlets ‘Kidnapping’ as an US Company seeks to move to India, from China – OK, firstly the news states risk about ‘Doing Business’ in China, but the crutch of the tale is no one wants to do business in the US! They (They one’s who are skipping town wan to relocate to India). Just hope this is not in Bangladesh (I know it’s not India, but geography, unless it’s a War zone, even if pronounced oddly is not the best attribute for many Americans) as Obama has just cut trade ties there!
The story from the Chinese side – The factory owner was packing up his equipment to leave the country and but at same time he also owing USD $250,000 wages to his factory workers in China.
The factory workers blocked all exit route, but he was supplied with water, food, and sleeping room (his previous office/living room) in the factory. The police was present to control the order as a wage dispute between the owner and the workers.
So the US business failed its agreement, and never paid its staff, yet China and cheap labor is bastardized as ‘Difficult’. – Fuzzy logic….
Posted by: kev | Jun 28 2013 3:20 utc | 122
@120 Well I guess you didn’t read anything I wrote. Congratulations on another amazing display of analytical skills. I’ll certainly be taking all your other insights very seriously from now on.
Posted by: guest77 | Jun 28 2013 3:58 utc | 123
@Penny
It appears the reason Mr. Tice doesn’t make a sympathetic figure is that he was caught early on, lost his security clearance and was stigmatized as having psyche issues.
There are right ways and wrong ways to play the media. Seems like he did it the wrong way.
The right way is to take a bunch of documents and give it to very noisy reporter. Even he admits that Snowden put out “tangible” (Mr. Tice’s own word) evidence while he, Tice, did not.
So “NSA leaker. Why is no one paying attention?” Well, he didn’t take documents. He was tripped up by the NSA early on. And this was also soon after 9/11 when the atmosphere was amenable to surveillance.
Posted by: guest77 | Jun 28 2013 4:32 utc | 124
@Guest77: YAWN! Do you feel cool ranting around in in a blog?!
Posted by: Kal | Jun 28 2013 10:47 utc | 125
Hillary Clinton Named Liberty Medal Recipient, Ceremony Set For September 10. Not only is she undeserving, but looks like a preempt for a staged event, it’s in the date?
Posted by: kev | Jun 28 2013 11:21 utc | 126
Guest 77
In real life there are people worth interacting with and people not worth interacting with.
On line.
Same/same
People who speak from both sides of their mouth are not worth interacting with in any place
You understand what I am saying?
Since I don’t value your insights I am unconcerned whether you value mine.
the japanese has learned a lot from their muricun overlords,
such exquisite in ur face taunt from abe
http://space4peace.blogspot.com/2013/06/loose-ends-from-berkeley-conference.html
Posted by: denk | Jun 28 2013 16:49 utc | 128
Let us please not start on the thermite vs boxcutters war. It has been going on for 12 years already, quite inconclusively in that neither side can convince the other, certainly not on a comments thread. But I really feel that precisely because of that — the monstrous fatigue factor – someone like Assange can be perfectly genuine as what he is, which is what he sets out to be, without getting into the issue at all. He doesn’t want to waste his time digging pits for himself to be toppled into by others.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jun 28 2013 17:50 utc | 129
@kal That’s a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, isn’t it.
@Penny Yes, Penny. I understand completely. I was only trying to provide a counterpoint to your argument. But like you also did with Bevin, you try too flim flam your way out of what you say and then turn it into some personal issue. You’ll probably have better luck with that at “your place”.
@RB My fault for bringing up the subject in the first place. I’m done.
Posted by: guest77 | Jun 28 2013 20:34 utc | 130
US – Seven million college students will see their student loan costs double on Monday. Let’s see if they protest like the students in Canada. However doubt it, even when the society (US) has been bashed by its own it is passive, submissive; very strange! Here is a thought, possibly why they agree or condone bombing other countries as a collective, it’s an outlet?
Posted by: kev | Jun 28 2013 23:18 utc | 131
Via Reuters:
“Obama had said on Thursday he did not “need a photo op” with Mandela, whom he met in 2005 in Washington when he was a U.S. senator.”
What? The Second Black President of the Free World can’t put in an appearance at the bedside of the First? Who’s improving, last I heard.
Posted by: ruralito | Jun 29 2013 15:30 utc | 132
kev
*possibly why they agree or condone bombing other countries as a collective, it’s an outlet? *
muricuns at work
http://www.zcommunications.org/wasting-fallujah-by-scott-morris
muricuns at play
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31939.htm
Posted by: denk | Jun 30 2013 3:01 utc | 133
what do muricuns do to unwind ?
*’They want to be able to fly helicopters, drop out of planes and shoot at things, and you can’t do that in crowded Okinawa,*
http://www.smh.com.au/national/us-marine-base-for-darwin-20111110-1n9lk.html
so how r those poor kids supposed to *let off steam* when they’ve nuthin to shoot at ?
pity the women folks.
digitaljournal.com/article/335027#tab=comments&sc=0
http://www.4thmedia.org/2011/12/01/south-korea-the-best-known-heaven-for-us-troops-sex-crimes-for-over-60-years/
smirkingchimp.com/thread/4505
*the boys* aint partial to age either, even grandmas n babies had not been spared.
how come we never hear about such craps in germany, italy, uk etc
fukus has bases over there too ?
hmm, dont tell me muricuns *exile* all the ex cons, pedophiles, cut throats to asia while well groomed mother’s boys are reserved for fellow anglophone countries ?
Posted by: denk | Jul 1 2013 3:56 utc | 134
osaka mayo hashimoto
*we r getting a lot of heat from the locals.
here’s an idea, why dont u guys leave them grandmas alone
n make free use of the many excellent whorehouses there ?*
marine commandant
*what craps, thats against our value* 😉
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2971580&cloc=joongangdaily
okinawan women folks have been bearing the blunt of muricun sex maniacs ever since okinawa’s occupation after ww2
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/pf/p-j072600.html
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2001/07/11/the-rape-of-japan/
adding insult to injury
their fury got a shot shrift from hashimoto
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/15/okinawa-women-osaka-mayor_n_3277515.html
instead, the creep almost broke his back when he bent down so hard, apologising profusely to the marines for *offending their values* [rofl]
the samurai forebears must be turning in their graves !
Posted by: denk | Jul 1 2013 5:40 utc | 135