Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 31, 2013

Rabbis: Zionism Is Racism

Recently I wrote:
Zionism is an ideology that is based on racial discrimination. It is thereby, like antisemitism, a form of racism and racism is hardly ever a base of peace.
It seems that a bunch of Zionist rabbis agree with that statement.

Haaretz: Top rabbis move to forbid renting homes to Arabs, say 'racism originated in the Torah'

A number of leading rabbis who signed on to a religious ruling to forbid renting homes to gentiles – a move particularly aimed against Arabs – defended their decision on Tuesday with the declaration that the land of Israel belongs to the Jews.
...
"We don't need to help Arabs set down roots in Israel," Rabbi Shlomo Aviner of the Beit El settlement, said on Tuesday. Aviner explained that he supported the move for two reasons: one, a Jew looking for an apartment should get preference over a gentile; and two, to keep the growing Arab population from settling too deeply. "Racism originated in the Torah," said Rabbi Yosef Scheinen, who heads the Ashdod Yeshiva. "The land of Israel is designated for the people of Israel. This is what the Holy One Blessed Be He intended and that is what the [sage] Rashi interpreted."

A bunch of east Europeans steal Arab land based on old fairytales and pure racism. They even acknowledge it. This should not be supported in any way. Yes, people differ and differing cultures may live in different ways. But racism used as justification for crimes is a crime in itself and should be punished.

These Rabbis are public employees of the state of Israel. Their opinions are official policy. Fortunately history tells us that such fascism seldom survives. Racist people tend to devour their own:
"The neighbors and acquaintances [of a Jew who sells or rents to an Arab] must distance themselves from the Jew, refrain from doing business with him, deny him the right to read from the Torah, and similarly [ostracize] him until he goes back on this harmful deed," the letter reads.

Posted by b on March 31, 2013 at 02:43 AM | Permalink

Comments

b. your argument is rubbish just like the Rabbis' argument. basing it on a pseudo scientific "gene study" does not make it any better.

What has become of the US and French revolutions' clarity that your citizenship is where you are born?

Yes, I know, we are not used to that in Germany. German citizenship, social benefits etc. of Eastern European immigrants to this country are still determined by their "German" grandfathers. Which is very racist if you think about it.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 31, 2013 3:34:45 AM | 1

It's the ability of people to embrace their own homemade sin in direct opposition to everything they claim to hold sacred ... and when caught out, when finally in a position where what they are doing cannot longer be denied, to draw their guns and redouble their sinning ...

I remember growing up and hearing the question, "The Germans, their society at the very peak of civilization itself ... how could they have sunk so low so quickly?" As an American I have no pretension to heights achieved, but it's harder every day to exaggerate the depths we've reached in this century or the speed with which we've reached them.

Surely there are Israelis, and Jews around the world revolted that Israel purports to speak for them, who have had more than enough of this.

In the end it is only we sinners ourselves who can stop sinning ...

Posted by: john francis lee | Mar 31, 2013 3:46:20 AM | 2

All religions segregate, where faith unites, even if it's brief. Where segregation or isolation (Group/Religion) transpires so does intolerance, hate and racism on all sides, inside out and outside in. This is not a Israel/Jewish thing, or a German/Nazi thing - it's any religion that include or excludes that is always the trigger...

Posted by: Kev | Mar 31, 2013 3:48:08 AM | 3

It's not pseudo-scientific since the study was peer reviewed and published in the prestigious Oxford journal of Genome Biology and Evolution. Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are likely connected to scythians, an Iranic people who lived in south-eastern europe before it was conquered by slavic tribes. Also jews used to call scythians Ashkenaz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenaz

Posted by: clubofrome | Mar 31, 2013 3:54:40 AM | 4

no 4

the human genome project - one decade later MIT review

plus - very simple mathematics - I got two parents 4 great parents 8 great-great parents 16 great-great-great parents that is a span of ca 120 years. In the Middle Ages we are in 1000's of people whose genetic trait might have made it to me. What has this person got to do with me?

There is also the fact that people travelled a lot in history and there is this:

In discussing medieval sex, it is also important to keep in mind that attitudes towards sex changed during the course of the Middle Ages. There was far more regulation in the later Middle Ages than the earlier. It is also important to recognise that there were a variety of peoples in the medieval period and not all people were Christian. Some were Christian heretics, but others were members of the Orthodox Church, or were Jewish, or were Muslim. One of the things that Karras does is to look at variations. Though eastern European Catholic sources are even scarcer than their western counterparts, there are still enough to find differences. Orthodox Christianity, if only because priests were married, has quite different ideas from Roman Catholic Christianity, or, for that matter, from Judaism and Islam. Islam, especially in Spain, was part of the Christian West while Jewish groups were widely dispersed. How did each religion influence the other? The one thing that all three groups agreed upon was that sexual relations between members of the different groups were to be discouraged, although the Christian exempla are full of stories of men marrying and converting Jewish and even Saracen women.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 31, 2013 4:44:16 AM | 5

Zionists and Nazis share the same roots and even lived and thrived beside one another, the only difference is that the Germans moved on and developed, whereas the Zionists did not.

It is the same ubermenschen fascist logic now as it was then and it has a paranoid state armed to the teeth with nukes always threatening and occupying it´s vicinity and the whole ME with the US as it´s major proxy. They are heading for the same ending as the Nazism and seems prepared to take the whole world with it...

Posted by: Berndt | Mar 31, 2013 5:26:44 AM | 6

#4 club of rome, the stupidity of this study is endless

of course there was a considerable amount of Germans in Caucasus too

so how does "comparing the genomes of 1,287 unrelated individuals who hail from eight Jewish and 74 non-Jewish populations" and finding "ancestral signatures that pointed clearly to the Caucasus" make sure those are not "German traits" or, indeed, those are not Arab or Persian traits as the Caucasus used to be an Arab caliphate and at one stage was part of Persia in the Middle ages?

Here is a scientific study seemingly supporting the argument by stating that "the very low genetic difference in Europe" has a correlation to geography.

"The map was so accurate that when Novembre's team placed a geopolitical map over their genetic "map", half of the genomes landed within 310 kilometres of their country of origin, while 90% fell within 700 km."

It somehow loses its political charm though when you remember that the distance between Warsaw and Berlin, Munich and Venice, Frankfurt and Paris, Graz and Sarajevo, Palermo and Tunis is less than 700 km and the distance on the borders between Germany and Eastern Europe is 0.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 31, 2013 5:38:44 AM | 7

If the US is correct in asserting that criticism of Israel constitutes anti-semitism, and Israel is racist, then let's be anti-semites. Of course the US claims that Israel is not racist, despite the abundant evidence.

YNet

Speaking at the Fifth Alliance of Civilizations Forum in Vienna’s Hofburg Palace, Erdogan warned against the rise of fascist forces in Europe.

“We are facing a world in which racist attacks have gained momentum, terrorism has claimed more lives, and religions and sects treat each other with less understanding,” he said.

“Just like Zionism, anti-Semitism and fascism, it becomes unavoidable that Islamophobia must be regarded as a crime against humanity,” the Turkish premier said.


Jerusalem Post
"We reject Prime Minister Erdogan's characterization of Zionism as a crime against humanity, which is offensive and wrong," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said in a statement.

"We encourage people of all faiths, cultures, and ideas to denounce hateful actions and to overcome the differences of our times," he said.


The US is blind to the abundant evidence, of course.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 31, 2013 10:40:57 AM | 8

In California there is an effort to stifle criticism of Israel in higher education. It is anti-semitic(!) and anti-semitism is increasing in the world. (Duh -- because of the actions of Israel.)

California House Resolution No. 35
August 29, 2012

WHEREAS, The frequency and severity of incidents of contemporary global anti-Semitism are increasing according to reports by representatives from nations around the world, including the United States Department of State in 2008, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe in 2004, and the Inter-parliamentary Coalition for Combating Antisemitism in 2009; and
WHEREAS, On July 20, 2009, the United States Senate unanimously approved a resolution that unequivocally condemns all forms of anti-Semitism and rejects attempts to rationalize anti-Jewish hatred or attacks as a justifiable expression of disaffection or frustration over political events in the Middle East or elsewhere, and decries the comparison of Jews to Nazis perpetrating the Holocaust or genocide as a pernicious form of anti-Semitism; and . . .
WHEREAS, The United States Commission on Civil Rights reported in 2006 that anti-Semitism exists on some college campuses and is often cloaked as criticism of Israel, and recommended that colleges and universities ensure that students are protected from actions that could create a hostile anti-Semitic environment; and . . .
Resolved by the Assembly of the State of California, That the Assembly unequivocally condemns all forms of intolerance, including anti-Semitism, on public postsecondary educational institution campuses in California . . .

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 31, 2013 10:59:56 AM | 9

"Religion is the greatest fomenter of hatred the world has ever known."

Forgot who said this,but, I believe it to be true. Could humanity please grab a clue?

Some Rabbis have become what they say they oppose. They do a grave disservice to their own
people.

Posted by: ben | Mar 31, 2013 11:03:53 AM | 10

What's been making me scratch my noggin for several years is the question: Is Judaism a religion or an ethnicity? Are Jewish folks all from a common bloodline or not? It appears to me that Israel isn't much different than Utah; a state built by masses of useful idiots who believe that their god-fairy is supreme for the financial benefit of a few... might compare to larger versions of FreeWinds the floating nation of the Scientology kooks.

So... are all hebrews related to David or not?

Posted by: DaveS | Mar 31, 2013 11:32:37 AM | 11

" It's not pseudo-scientific since the study was peer reviewed and published in the prestigious Oxford journal of Genome Biology and Evolution."

This really is the silliest statement of the day: every form of racist nonsense has, at some stage or another, been "peer reviewed" and published in a "prestigious journal". While Oxford is a world Headquarters for conservative stupidity.

The truth is that zionism would be racism if those who practise judaic rites constituted a race. They do not. Indeed it is very doubtful whether races can be defined into existence.

Zionism is a excuse for a particular imperialist project. It has survived and thrived because it is very convenient to the imperial ruling class to have Israel where it is. And because the fascist schemers who have constructed Israel have been very successful in marketing the indispensability of their colonies to the Empire.

Imperialism is racist, through and through, which is to say, in an era in which the idea of race is dissolving in the light of reality, that imperialism is a elitist project, under which the masses are plundered on the grounds that it is for their own good, because there is no alternative...

In other words these are forms of exploitation enforced by terror and justified by false reasoning. It goes without saying that this reasoning has been peer reviewed and published, ad nauseam, under the auspices of Oxford University.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 31, 2013 11:41:59 AM | 12

"What's been making me scratch my noggin for several years is the question: Is Judaism a religion or an ethnicity?"

I scratch my head at such useless horseshit as your own ponderings. Who gives a shit? The issue, reduced to its essence, is the actions and policies of Israel as they unfold TODAY. Screw all the history, the polls, and the mental masturbation about ethnicity and religion. The baseline FACT is that Israel is becoming a racist fascist tumor on the earth, and its treatment of the Palestinians is DESPICABLE. I couldn't care less about what a "jew" is, or isn't. I do, however, have a deep disdain for what Israel is becoming. A disdain I would have no matter the ethnicity or religion of its general population. Stop jacking off with the ignorant philosophical musings that have NOTHING TO DO WITH the real problem.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Mar 31, 2013 11:45:57 AM | 13

bevin @ 12:

"Zionism is a excuse for a particular imperialist project. It has survived and thrived because it is very convenient to the imperial ruling class to have Israel where it is. And because the fascist schemers who have constructed Israel have been very successful in marketing the indispensability of their colonies to the Empire."

Very well said bevin, and absolutely true, IMO.

Posted by: ben | Mar 31, 2013 11:53:58 AM | 14

P.S.....

Another Gem POA, Yes!

Posted by: ben | Mar 31, 2013 11:56:58 AM | 15

A number of Jews, like MJ Rosenberg, are concerned that Israel's current policies constitute long-term death to Israel. Short-term, if Israel loses Europe, it only has the U.S., which isn't saying much, any more.

Op-Ed: Anti-Semitism aflame in Europe.
Many of its intellectuals, academics, writers, columnists, Nobel laureates, journalists and politicians have become enablers of evil, giving cover to international criminals and to the ongoing slaughter of Jews.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 31, 2013 12:11:34 PM | 16

As a Jew, I protest this article. God damn it, we are supposed to be fairly smart. Some people would say +15IQ (if you are certified Ashkenazim, that is). And damn it, we're supposed to be fairly hip, too.
What am I supposed to do when my friends read this article, and ask me "Are you guys really that credulous?" "Are you really that ignorant of your own history in this regard?" "Do you really want to sacrifice a 2000+ year old religion to the whims of the American Empire? How has that worked out for you before?"
I mean, c'mon, Rabbis which have civil powers and are employed by the government? I don't really want it bruited around that I belong to a religion which idealises a basically medieval ghetto system, you know.

And then there the little matter of the fact that, when it's all said and done, we basically stole the place, or do we believe the British Empire carries out God's commands? (Remember, they were the ones who controlled the area and allowed Zionist settlement, well until that unfortunate King David Hotel contrempts
Oh weell, I had a pretty good shot at passing myself off as something special, what with the beard, and the Old Testament get-up,and the Yiddish proverbs I make up, but the Zionists are gonna ruin everything. They will show the world we are just like anybody else, only more so. And a couple of hundred years too late.

BTW, have you checked out what is happening in the UK in re Zionism? At least this is a hopeful incident. Scroll down the top five articles are on this incident.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 12:42:30 PM | 17

"I couldn't care less about what a "jew" is, or isn't."

I salute you, sir or Madam, as the case may be. That is an excellent policy, one I as a Jew, embrace. The other way lies madness. Remember, two Jews, three or four opinions.

But you wanna know something? First thing I noticed about Zionism, when I was young, was that Zionism caused Jews to lie to other Jews, to bully other Jews, and to use other Jews. Worst of all, it told them that this was their lot, to be lied to and used! And we hadn't even progressed to how Zionism would act in relation to non-Jews. That was enough for me.

And then there's the queasy feeling I get when Jews, who have partaken of everything the US has to offer (education, affluence, influence, ease, rights, including their right to define their own Judaism) and are themselves living examples of the advantages to Jews of separating religion from citizenship, argue that a ghetto-system (Jews rule other Jews, and intermediaries deal with non-Jews) is the best we can hope for.

And then there's a little problem. Okay, let's say (and unfortunately, it could happen, we should know that, huh?) that the Zionists succeed in eradicating, as any kind of a polity, the Palestinians. And that "acco0mplishment" is going to redound to the glory of the Jews through the next generations? Oh yes, won't everybody treat us with awe: "Look, there goes a Jew, one of thoswe who destroyed the Palestinians, thus saving the world"? Oh yeah, that's gonna work out great. No doubt, that will bind every young Jewish person to the religion and culture, and possibly cause millions to want to convert, huh?

Oh well, maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand it.

And we fell for this? What happened to the smarts?

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 1:00:01 PM | 18

P.O.A.–

I'm surprised you take offense to my post and then tell us, "I do, however, have a deep disdain for what Israel is becoming.

Has Israel ever been anything different than what it is today? Seriously, you're offended that I dare ask a question (bevin@12 answered eloquently) that seems to go along with what b posted and yet the language of your own post seems to hint that Israel was somehow warmer and fuzzier during some previous time?

Posted by: DaveS | Mar 31, 2013 1:03:22 PM | 19

"In California there is an effort to stifle criticism of Israel in higher education. It is anti-semitic(!) and anti-semitism is increasing in the world. (Duh -- because of the actions of Israel.)"

Mr. Bacon, if you would, check the link I provided. In the UK, there's a refreshing difference in direction.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 1:21:57 PM | 20

Has Israel ever been anything different than what it is today?

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 1:26:17 PM | 21

"I'm surprised you take offense to my post and then tell us, "I do, however, have a deep disdain for what Israel is becoming."

Yes, "becoming" is an apt expression. There was a time that a two state solution was not only possible, but was embraced by by a large segment of the Israeli population. No more. Further, the right wing leanings, and racist sentiments of Israeli youth is a troubling new aspect of Israeli society. In Israel, the youth, tomorrow's leaders, AND tomorrow's voter's, have been taught and indoctrinated into a despicably racist mindset at a very young age.

And I am not "offended" by your post. I am merely sick and tired of the diversion offered by such musings as yours. We offer the Israelis a path to distortion by such ponderings and arguments. The worst is this constant diversion into past history, which does absolutely NOTHING to add to constructive debate about how to change TODAY'S abuses and policies practiced by Israel. Of all the foreign policy issues before us, I can think of no issue that is so completely fueled by propaganda, diversionary debate, and abject IGNORANCE of the facts on the ground.

It doesn't matter whether being "jewish" is a religious affinity or an ethnic affinity when the person or people being discussed are flooding raw sewage on a village, imprisoning a child for throwing rocks,or targeting an American citizen with a high velocity tear gas canister. These acts are despicable no matter the ethnicity or religion of the perpetrator.

Debating the question you offer contributes WHAT(?) to the effort to underscore, and curtail, the inhumanity of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians, or its death grip on the testicles of 99% of our elected officials? Who really, when looking at the actual problem, gives a shit about what it means to be a "jew"?

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Mar 31, 2013 2:55:09 PM | 22

"of course there was a considerable amount of Germans in Caucasus too"

according to your own link, some Germans only immigrated to the Caucas in the 19th century.

Posted by: clubofrome | Mar 31, 2013 2:55:45 PM | 23

"inding "ancestral signatures that pointed clearly to the Caucasus" make sure those are not "German traits" or, indeed, those are not Arab or Persian traits as the Caucasus "

Didn't he compare the DNA of german, arab and persian population with those of the caucus?

Posted by: clubofrome | Mar 31, 2013 3:01:15 PM | 24

I'm sorry, clobofrome, I don't quite grasp which decisions should be made on the basis of DNA "ancestral signatures" Can you aquaint me with which DNA sequences demand or cause which decisions? Can't quite see the relevance.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 3:27:57 PM | 25

"Who really, when looking at the actual problem, gives a shit about what it means to be a "jew"?"

Well, it's not really anybody else's problem, certainly not yours, but I would have hoped that if Jews knew more and thought more about that question, Zionism wouldn't exist. So call me an Anna Pollystein, or whatever her name was.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 3:33:34 PM | 26

24 clubofrome, of course he did not, and of course DNA looked at today has ancestors in the 19th century.

I found the best summary of the results of modern genetics and the unfeasability to define race though obviously geographical differences in people's makeup exist here

As a result of these problems in defining a race, some race realists have bitten the bullet and accepted that race is effectively genealogy. ‘A member of race R’, the philosopher Max Hocutt argues ‘is an individual whose forebears were members of race R. Thus an animal is a coyote if it is descended from a coyote… A human being is an Afro-American if she is descended from Americans whose forebears were Africans.’ Or as Steve Sailer, founder of the self-styled Human Biodiversity Institute (which despite its grand title, is not an academic centre but a website and email discussion group) , puts it, ‘a race is an extended family that is inbred to some degree’. Hocutt accepts that ‘we cannot say with precision how big, how cohesive or how closed a breeding group must be or even how long it must last to count as a distinct race.’ But this is immaterial, he claims, for what he calls the ‘workaday definition of race’.

In fact it is anything but immaterial. After all, British Jews are ‘an extended family and inbred to some degree’. So are French Jews. So are people from Sylhet in Bangladesh who have emigrated to Britain. Those who have emigrated to Canada form another ‘extended family inbred to some degree’. Presumably then, British Jews and French Jews are separate races; and British Sylhettis and Canadian Sylhettis each form a distinct race. The philosopher Naomi Zack points out that ‘there is no coherent explanation of what makes one population, such as inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa, a race, while another breeding group, such as Protestants in Ireland, would fail to be considered a race.’ For Steve Sailer that is no problem: Northern Ireland Protestants, he argues, are a distinct race!

Once again we come back to the old problem: when virtually any group can be a race, then the concept of race becomes meaningless. If everything from the British royal family to the entire human population can be considered a race (because each is an ‘extended family inbred to some degree’), then the category has little value.

There is another clue that the article b. quotes is complete bullshit

"Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language" before being reclassified as High German, he notes."

This is linguistically impossible. Slav languages are indogermanic but that is the only relationship they have with German. Yiddish is clearly German, and is a clue where a large part of Eastern European Jews came from.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 31, 2013 3:35:30 PM | 27

"The neighbors and acquaintances [of a Jew who sells or rents to an Arab] must distance themselves from the Jew, refrain from doing business with him, deny him the right to read from the Torah, and similarly [ostracize] him until he goes back on this harmful deed," the letter reads."

ROTFLMSJAO! Rent to an Arab? Good Lord, don't anybody tell them that in the US, about, oh, half of Jewish people marry a person of another religion. Why, they might lose respect for us American Jews if they knew that. I'm not sure we could stand it. Or does it make us feel better to know that in Israel, at least, such a thing is very forcefully discouraged?


Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 3:39:15 PM | 28

"Are Jewish folks all from a common bloodline or not?"

Off course! You've heard of Adam and Eve, haven't you? Yes, he lost his job, and lost the property in the exclusive Garden of Eden gated community, but they stayed together. And begat, and begat, and begat.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 3:53:08 PM | 29

"There is another clue that the article b. quotes is complete bullshit"

and therefore it is necessary for Rabbis in Israel to try and enforce bigotry through religion?Or okay for them to do it? Or wrong to condemn them for it? Okay, fight it out on those lines, if you like.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 4:01:25 PM | 30

#30 of course not. Unfortunately, they are not the only ones, and Israel is not the only racist country. Remember Israel gets supported by US/EU in various degrees, and the reason these countries do that is deeply imperialist racist, too.

Actually researching genetics and Askhenazy Jews is quite revealing:

However, most populations contain hundreds of alleles that could potentially cause disease and most people are heterozygotes for one or two recessive alleles that would be lethal in a homozygote.[8] Although the overall frequency of disease-causing alleles does not vary much between populations, the practice of consanguineous marriage (marriage between second cousins or closer relatives) is common in some Jewish communities, which produces a small increase in the number of children with congenital defects.[9]

According to Daphna Birenbaum Carmeli at the University of Haifa, Jewish populations have been studied more thoroughly than most other human populations because:[10]

Geneticists are intrinsically interested in Jewish populations as a disproportionate percentage of genetics researchers are Jewish. Israel in particular has become an international center of such research.
Jewish populations, and particularly the large Ashkenazi Jewish population, are ideal for such research studies, because they exhibit a high degree of endogamy, and at the same time are a large group.
Jewish populations are overwhelmingly urban, and are concentrated near biomedical centers where such research has been carried out. Such research is especially easy to carry out in Israel, where cradle-to-grave medical insurance is available, together with universal screening for genetic disease.
Jewish communities are comparatively well informed about genetics research, and have been supportive of community efforts to study and prevent genetic diseases.
Participation of Jewish scientists and support from the Jewish community alleviates ethical concerns that sometimes hinder such genetic studies in other ethnic groups.

The result is a form of ascertainment bias. This has sometimes created an impression that Jews are more susceptible to genetic disease than other populations. Carmeli writes, "Jews are over-represented in human genetic literature, particularly in mutation-related contexts."[10] Another factor that may aid genetic research in this community is that Jewish culture results in excellent medical care, which is coupled to a strong interest in the community's history and demography.[11]

This set of advantages have led to Ashkenazi Jews in particular being used in many genetic studies, not just in the study of genetic diseases. For example, a series of publications on Ashkenazi centenarians established that their longevity was strongly inherited and associated with lower rates of age-related diseases.[12] This "healthy aging" phenotype may be due to higher levels of telomerase in these individuals.


Posted by: somebody | Mar 31, 2013 4:14:05 PM | 31

" Remember Israel gets supported by US/EU in various degrees, and the reason these countries do that is deeply imperialist racist, too."

Can't argue with that. Wish I could, but I can't.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 6:18:40 PM | 32

"b. your argument is rubbish..."

I'm sorry, I'm a little slow. What is b's "argument"?

b: "A bunch of east Europeans steal Arab land based on old fairytales and pure racism. They even acknowledge it. This should not be supported in any way. Yes, people differ and differing cultures may live in different ways. But racism used as justification for crimes is a crime in itself and should be punished"

Is it that argument which is "rubbish". As far as I can see that and the (pretty much inarguable, unless you know of any 100+ yr. old facist regimes)part about "Fortunately history tells us that such fascism seldom survives. Racist people tend to devour their own" are the only "arguments" b. makes in the post.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 6:34:33 PM | 33

"A bunch of east Europeans steal Arab land based on old fairytales and pure racism. They even acknowledge it. This should not be supported in any way."

Part of "support" is the willingness to engage in these idiotic forays into useless debate. I see that commenters here have allowed themselves to sucked into getting themselves off with another intellectual circle jerk.

"However, most populations contain hundreds of alleles that could potentially cause disease and most people are heterozygotes for one or two recessive alleles that would blablahblablah,blahblablahblablahblahblablahbla,blahblahblablahblablahblah.....ad nauseum"

SO WHAT??? WTF does that have to do with some rabbis advocating for racist policies to be employed by Israeli citizens when renting property in modern Israel?

These debates are horseshit. The radical zionists and hasbarists LOVE it when you idiots launch into these ridiculous diversions, affording them the window by which they can divert attention from the actual attrocity that is supposed to be noted and discussed.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Mar 31, 2013 7:25:48 PM | 34

I don't play those games. May they call themselves and "their" stolen country whatever they please, may they really have originated from Palestine, from Scythia or from wherever.
I also don't play the holocaust game. It's rotten with lies and filth.

And I'm not willing or ready to hate Jews.

We, who we live today, are responsible for what we do today. No matter what happened 70 or 700 years ago.
Rather than bending the holocaust to a legitimation for torture and evil of all kinds, it should - and would by real inmates and victims of concentration camps - be the basis to profoundly know, what *never ever* to do, not ever to torture, not ever to brutally discriminate against others.

israel is to be terminated and will be terminated. And they themselves fuel the process towards that end. Because even kind-harted friendly people find more and more anger in themselves when they see how berserk israel acts.

It should be hoped, and I for one certainly do hope that, that there aren't too many people falling for israels lies and excuses and such wrongly assume that "jew" and "israel" are one and the same. I sincerely hope that many people remember that there is a difference between zionism and a religion (insofar as the religious practice stays within purely religious bounds).

In short: When the time comes I will protect Jews, i.e. (hopefully) decent people who just happen to pray to another God than myself. For zionists, however, be they in israel or elsewhere, I will think "They themselves prepared the path to what happenes to them now. Even worse, they went along that path in such hybris, ignorance, despise for other humans and brutality that they didn't leave the world another chance than to forcefully push them towards the letal end of that very path".

It's about time to pour some gasoline into those vipers nests. Just imagine a usa without aipac and accomplices!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 31, 2013 8:03:37 PM | 35

"SO WHAT??? WTF does that have to do with some rabbis advocating for racist policies to be employed by Israeli citizens when renting property in modern Israel?"

Don't you see? If we can just prove that Jews have genes, everything would become clear. But unfortunately, as you can see there is no conclusive scientific consensus on the matter.

BTW, I do believe those Rabbi's can do more than "advocate". I believe they have temporal powers, too. Their position may be analogous to an Alabama bus driver's in the pre-Civil Rights South.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 8:09:13 PM | 36

"In short: When the time comes I will protect Jews, i.e. (hopefully) decent people who just happen to pray to another God than myself."

You would do that, and still allow me to pray to another God than yourself? That's really cool, man, damned alabaster of you. But if it would make you feel good, I'll pray to you, too. I mean, you protect me, you become my God. It's only fair.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 8:17:05 PM | 37

Oh, BTW Mr. Pragma, I'll skip that part of the 'protection' where you "pour some gasoline into those vipers nests." Don't worry, I'll make the protection payments on time!

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 8:22:18 PM | 38

"I sincerely hope that many people remember that there is a difference between zionism and a religion (insofar as the religious practice stays within purely religious bounds)"

The best plan would be to post monitors in all Jewish Temples, to make sure the boundariues are not transgressed. After all, isn't that where it all started?

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 8:26:34 PM | 39

mooser (37)

Thanks for the example but it wasn't necessary to give an example of zionists readiness to arbitrarily bend anything so as to fit their purposes.

This has already been proven to unbearable extremes by zionists "interpretation" of law and important basic terms like ownership, justice and honesty.

Thanks anyway.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 31, 2013 8:27:28 PM | 40

Say POA, just because you unfamiliar with the terms 'alleles', 'heterozygosity' and 'recessive' it does not mean that they are irrelevant to the more general discussion of 'racism'. Unfortunately, over the last 150 years many racist theories that were used to justify the oppression of brown skinned peoples made claims on science to justify the superiority of the white people. It has been known for decades that the these claims were bogus. What has been happening over the past few decades, especially in the last 5 years, is that comparative genomics (check out haplotype mapping if you want to see) is showing that there is very little scientific support for the entire idea of races. Basically, it is looking like we are all mongrels to differing degrees.

This is an important development -- it is putting to rest scientific claims of racial superiority. That is important.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 31, 2013 8:34:52 PM | 41

Sp Mr. Pragma, what about my posts leads you to believe I am a Zionist? Please, don't hold back. Would you please point out where I have (except with the archest kind of sarcasm) ever endorsed the idea that Zionism is anything other than a criminal fraud, both on the Jews, and the world.
So, I give the floor to you, Pragma (if thaqt is indeed, your real name!) Where have I ever endorsed Zionism. You can search under "Mooser" at Mondoweiss if you want more ammo. I eagerly await your indictment.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 9:11:34 PM | 42

"This is an important development -- it is putting to rest scientific claims of racial superiority. That is important."

"scientific claims of racial superiority"? I didn't know there was such a thing. Lot of pseudo-scientific claims, sure, but "scientific"? I don't think so.

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 9:14:50 PM | 43

Mooser, I know where you're coming from, but for the uninitiated, it's hard to tell, sometimes, if you're being serious or sarcastic.

Posted by: yes_but | Mar 31, 2013 9:36:52 PM | 44

So we all agree-- Zionism is racism, a crime against humanity.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 31, 2013 9:41:11 PM | 45

"This is an important development -- it is putting to rest scientific claims of racial superiority. That is important."

Oh horseshit. Do you really think a bigot founds his prejudices in science?

"Lookee here, bigot, this science proves you aren't superior". Yeah, you'll really impress a small mind with that sword in your argument. Religious or ethnic fanaticism ain't founded in science, and it ain't going to be erased by science. And I don't need science to tell me that hatred based on ethnicity, race, or religion is just flat assed ignorant.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Mar 31, 2013 10:35:04 PM | 46

"Oh, BTW Mr. Pragma, I'll skip that part of the 'protection' where you "pour some gasoline into those vipers nests.""

Think I'll pass on that endeavor as well. I mean, after all, isn't that what the zionists would claim they are doing to the palestinians?

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Mar 31, 2013 10:42:45 PM | 47

Let's be clear, Zionists are not a race. Even somebody like the current U.S. vice president can be a Zionist. "If I were a Jew, I would be a Zionist. I am a Zionist. You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." -- Sen. Joseph Biden

But Zionism is racism.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 31, 2013 10:53:47 PM | 48

"Mooser, I know where you're coming from, but for the uninitiated, it's hard to tell, sometimes, if you're being serious or sarcastic."

Oh, that's just great! If you can't tell, how the hell am I supposed to know? And my right-to-life principles don't help; they mandate that every joke conceived gets delivered.
But listen, here's a good test: Show any of my posts on the subject to a Zionist, and take their word for it. They don't seem to have any trouble figuring it out. If you don't know any Zionists to show it to, all I can say is, some people have all the luck!

Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 11:20:06 PM | 49

The point is, that the White House loves Zionists.

"We reject Prime Minister Erdogan's characterization of Zionism as a crime against humanity, which is offensive and wrong," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said in a statement.

But we know differently. Calling Zionism a crime against humanity might be offensive to Zionists but it is not wrong.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 31, 2013 11:27:51 PM | 50

"So we all agree-- Zionism is racism, a crime against humanity."

Against humanity? Oh it's worse than that, it's a crime against the Jews, too!


Posted by: Mooser | Mar 31, 2013 11:31:29 PM | 51

"If I were a Jew, I would be a Zionist. I am a Zionist. You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist."

Its just fashionable to be a Washington asshole claiming an affinity to zionism.

Don't believe him, he's anything he needs to be to fit whatever political moment he's in. Besides, the man is simply too ridiculous to be a serious zionist,(or a serious anything, for that matter).

Trust me, the real zionist bigots know he's just a jackass, braying about issues that are waaaayy over his head.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Mar 31, 2013 11:39:36 PM | 52

@52 POA
Biden is more than a fashionable asshole, he's a main architect of the terrible Iraq War and a significant contributor not only to current U.S. wars but also to the ongoing I/P debacle and the aggression against Iran.
Biden at AIPAC recently:

"Let me make clear what that commitment is," Biden said. "It is to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon. Period. Period. End of discussion. Period. Prevent. Not contain. Prevent. The president has flatly stated that."

"President Barack Obama is not bluffing," he added. "We are not looking for war. We are looking to and ready to negotiate peacefully. But all options, including military force, are on the table."

In addition, Biden said that the United States will continue to stand against international efforts to delegitimize Israel. Biden explained that when President Obama travels to Muslim-majority countries, the president makes clear that "Israel's legitimacy and our support for it is not a matter of debate. There is no light. It is not a matter of debate. It's simple, and he means it. It is not a matter of debate. Don't raise it with us. Do not raise it with us. It is not negotiable."

Biden stated he knows that all of Israel's leaders want peace. "But it takes two to tango, and the rest of the Arab world has to get in the game. We're under no illusions about how difficult it will be to achieve," he said.


So when Biden claims he's a Zionist it says something about not only Biden, the U.S. vice president, supposedly the adult in the room with Barry, but also about Zionism and its intents.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 1, 2013 12:06:39 AM | 53

Totally off topic, an English language Turkish journalism blog is reporting on the exclusion of the Turkish press from the journalists allowed to cover the trail for murder of those Germans accused of killing 5 Turks and one Greek in Germany:

https://istanbulian.blogspot.com/2013/03/in-germany-turkish-press-is-not-allowed.html

Posted by: jrh | Apr 1, 2013 12:24:32 AM | 54

#33

b.'s argument is rubbish, because the colonial enterprise of Israel is much more complicated than that and a large part of Israeli citizens would have preferred and still would prefer to go to the US if they had been/were given a chance. A large part of immigrants to Israel were victims by any definition of the word. That a victim can become a perpetrator is a fact of life.

If you take b.'s argument further - something that was robbed has to be given back or taken back - you opt for eternal war as it cannot be defined where in history to draw the line - 20 years back, 50 years back, 100 years back, and the genetics of ancestry proves we all came from Africa .... People should have a right to live peacefully with full citizenship where they are.

Zionism is the - defensive - result of continental European - Austrian/Hungarian to be exact - nationalism basing nationhood on "ethnicity" and language. This type of nationalism is still a pest with the potential of causing wars last seen in Europe in Yougoslavia.


Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2013 3:56:00 AM | 55

Don't see any evidence of +15IQ here.

Posted by: DM | Apr 1, 2013 4:52:00 AM | 56

"Yiddish is clearly German, and is a clue where a large part of Eastern European Jews came from"

Yiddish is based on Crimean Gothic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic

Posted by: clubofrome | Apr 1, 2013 5:53:00 AM | 57

Norman Finkelstein on the term "zionism".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jquFBluif6M

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 1, 2013 8:17:23 AM | 58

@54: The article is wrong in one fundamental fact: Hürriyet journalists applied in the afternoon of that day, while the first one had applied at 8:59 in the morning. There seem to be some weird things about the procedure and I do regret that there hasn't been found an easy solutions because Turkish media must be given at least one seat. But that's what is is in the article: a false statement.

Source: https://www.freitag.de/autoren/gsfrb/akkreditierungsanfragen-fuer-nsu-prozess

Posted by: k_w | Apr 1, 2013 8:30:58 AM | 59

31 somebody "Geneticists are intrinsically interested in Jewish populations as a disproportionate percentage of genetics researchers are Jewish. Israel in particular has become an international center of such research."

The Jews are pikers next to the Mormons who are more dedicated to a systemic study of genetics and geneology. For Jews this is propaganda, but Mormons has an earnest pursuit of this study. Mormons can be denounced as Zionists too however.

Posted by: scottindallas | Apr 1, 2013 10:03:26 AM | 60

I think it's a mistake to include the topic of religion in discussions about Zionism. Zionism is a cult, a primitive and criminal cargo cult, which worships property aquisition by violence and intimidation, regardless of the religion beliefs of its noisily self-righteous adherents. The fact that most Zionists claim to be Jews is intended to confuse opponents.
It's a trick.
And it works every time they pull it out of their hat/ass.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 1, 2013 11:39:51 AM | 61

"The Jews are pikers next to the Mormons who are more dedicated to a systemic study of genetics and geneology." (sic)

First off "genology" and genetics are two completely different things, and one of them can be science, and one is just getting others to believe the same pretentious lies about your family that you do. And its g-e-n-e-a-l-o-g-y.

BTW, I have a distinguished Jewish genealogy myself. As you may have noticed, I am unfailingly genial. And every indication is that I am a direct descendant of Joseph Silver (aka Joseph Flys)! The only other people who can say they are a descendant of somebody who was suspected of being Jack the Ripper are in the English aristocracy. Hah! Take that you snobs! So how do you like me, now that I can dance? Watch me now!

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 1, 2013 11:45:16 AM | 62

57) you are clearly trying to spread racist fascist mythology.

Ahnenerbe

"After the German army conquered the Crimea in early July 1942, Himmler sent Dr. Herbert Jankuhn, as well as Karl Kersten and Baron Wolf von Seefeld, to the region in search of artifacts to follow up the recent displaying of the Kerch “Gothic crown of the Crimea” in Berlin.

Jankuhn met with senior officers of Einsatzkommando 11, part of Einsatzgruppe D, while waiting at the field headquarters of the 5th SS Panzer Division. Commander Otto Ohlendorf gave Jankuhn information about the Crimean museums.[8]

Traveling with the 5th SS Panzer, Jankuhn’s team eventually reached Maikop, where they received a message from Sievers that Himmler wanted an investigation of Manhup-Kale, an ancient mountain fortress. Jankuhn sent Kersten to follow up on Manhup-Kale, while the rest of the team continued trying to secure artifacts that had not already been taken by the Red Army. Einsatzkommando 11b’s commander Werner Braune aided the team in their efforts.

Jankuhn was ultimately unable to find Gothic artifacts denoting a German ancestry, even after receiving intelligence about a shipment of seventy-two crates or artifacts shipped to a medical warehouse. Unfortunately, the area had been ravaged by the time the team arrived, and only twenty crates remained—but they contained Greek and stone-age artifacts, rather than Gothic."

The oldest Jewish graves in Frankfurt date from the 13th century - no need to invent Crim Goths to account for the fact that European Jews spoke a High German dialect.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2013 11:52:21 AM | 63

"Holocaust Survivors" without strong family connections live in relative squalor in "The Jewish Homeland" despite the fact that their "story" has been sold to the world for hundreds of billions of dollars in "reparations" from which the "victims" receive extraordinarily parsimonious pensions.
Apart from being nothing more than a cargo cult, Zionism isn't famous for honesty, gratitude, or generosity.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 1, 2013 11:54:12 AM | 64

"Yiddish is clearly German, and is a clue where a large part of Eastern European Jews came from"

Oh, don't believe all that Zionist puffery, it's no larger than anybody else's.

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 1, 2013 12:03:11 PM | 65

"The fact that most Zionists claim to be Jews is intended to confuse opponents."

I wonder, does it fool Jews, too? I mean, we're supposed to be pretty sharp about that kind of stuff.

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 1, 2013 12:07:09 PM | 66

From Xymphora April 1...

Milk and honey news: "Israeli Gas Field Opens, Setting Stage for Energy Boom" "Israel Starts Tamar Gas Production" "Lobby’s effort to exempt Israel from sequester gets ‘Israel first’-ers into the lexicon" "AIPAC takes on the latest threat to Israel — sequestration" They claim they will spend their new wealth on social programs, which in Israel means illegal settlements and murdering Palestinians.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 1, 2013 12:16:56 PM | 67

"Zionism is a cult, a primitive and criminal cargo cult, which worships property aquisition by violence and intimidation"

Unlike colonialism, which was simply a benevolent impulse to help and enlighten the natives, which went wrong?

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 1, 2013 12:26:59 PM | 68

#65, well in the case of Yiddish all I have to do is trust my ears. I can understand it and I speak neither Hebrew nor any Slav language, just German.

And if you look into people's faces you realise that quite a few Celts mendeled their traits through to Zionism.

All that ancestry discussion is pointless really, people robbed and grabbed in history whatever they could and they mixed whenever they felt like it, religion hardly had any control.

In the case of the Ashkenazy genetics research - all it tells you is that inbreeding is bad for your kids.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2013 12:33:14 PM | 69

@ 66
I wonder, does it fool Jews, too?

Sort of ... how would you feel if, as a Jew, you lived with the threat of being labelled and persecuted as an anti-semite for criticising Zionist objectives and actions?
That's more or less what this thread is about.
i.e. Israel tearing itself apart arguing over vacuous and contradictory principles, mythology and rhetoric.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 1, 2013 12:37:46 PM | 70

@ 68.
Unlike colonialism, which was simply a benevolent impulse to help and enlighten the natives, which went wrong?

Uh??
What's 'unlike colonialism' about Zionism?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 1, 2013 12:51:55 PM | 71

"What's 'unlike colonialism' about Zionism?"

As far as I can see, very little. That was my point, made, I see now, in my usual back-asswards fashion.

"Sort of ... how would you feel if, as a Jew, you lived with the threat of being labelled and persecuted as an anti-semite for criticising Zionist objectives and actions?"

I'm not the guy to ask, I was firmly anti-Zionist by my Bar Mitzvah. I wear that kind of criticism as a badge of honor. By the time I was adult enough to understand Zionism, I despised it.
But it's very upsetting. I don't know what is worse, that American Jews may really believe in Zionism, or that they feel for some reason they must make a pretense of believing it. That one really gets me. If I had enough teeth, it would make me grind them.

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 1, 2013 3:01:12 PM | 72

@63

Don't you think it's interesting that the oldest Jewish grave in Frankfurt date to 13th century, and Jewish history only began in Germany in the 12th century. And Khazaria just happen to have collpased in the 11th century?

Posted by: clubofrome | Apr 1, 2013 3:02:50 PM | 73

"i.e. Israel tearing itself apart arguing over vacuous and contradictory principles, mythology and rhetoric."

Oh please, they're just starting to panic because they are not sure anymore they can get away with it. And they gotta keep all the Israelis in an existential tsimmes all the time. Just like most colonial projects, a great many of the ostensible colonists are themselves victims. But Sweet Jesus, I never thought we would really fall for something like that. When your birth-rate is falling, and in every country which gives you a choice Jews are marrying out and walking away, defining their own relationship with Judaism, is no time to try and establish Jewish Facism.

There's no "principles, mythology and rhetoric" in Zionism. Just a whole lot of persiflage to cover theft and racism and murder. They don't even know where their borders are.

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 1, 2013 3:12:07 PM | 74

"In the case of the Ashkenazy genetics research - all it tells you is that inbreeding is bad for your kids."

While I am all for hybrid vigor, sometimes a bit of consanguinity can't be avoided in this fleshuggana world. Some time after we were married, my non-Jewish wife confessed her family's shameful secret: that the grand-matriarch of the clan may very well been forced out of the German village of her youth when she was impregnated by an itinerant Jewish peddler. (Spel-Chek is intent on blaming a bicyclist, and really, no wonder. Can you trust a guy who shaves his legs?) Anyway, on the basis of this, my wife decided I shouldn't have children.

Of course, all this criminality brutality and pathological credulity could really get a guy down (I'm talking about Zionism, not my marriage). And when it does, and I feel like the victim of congenital idiocy, I just go talk to other Americans about the War on Terror. Then (as the song says) I don't feel so bad. It's one of my favorite things.

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 1, 2013 3:24:26 PM | 75

73) I agree. Historic facts are boring, fantasy is much better.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2013 4:41:54 PM | 76

As it seems to have been missed here in the discussion, B's larger point of "where" east-European Jews originated, is that they do not come from Palestine. That would undermine the notion of right of return. Which is where the zionist project of Isreal finds its legitimacy in western eyes - the eyes of its protectors/supporters. Of course the notion of right of return should lose its legitimacy after 1500 years if not a few generations; how many Americans truly think that we should give everything back to the native Americans, after all (and that's only after 200 years at the most)?

As an example, let's say that an army of Nigerians (or pick your favorite ethnicity) invaded and conquered Rome and central Italy, tossed out the inhabitants, or assimilated them. Then 1500 years later, Mexicans living in the U.S., who are Roman Catholic, decided that they needed to "return" to Rome. They speak a Latin-based language, and are Roman Catholic, and hold all the holy places in reverence. Should they have the right of return? What about all the, now, Nigero-Italo people who never left? Should they be pushed out and beaten down because of an event from 1500 years ago over which their ancestors had no control, but in which they adapted to and then continued on?

Posted by: skuppers66 | Apr 1, 2013 9:11:42 PM | 77

Back to Köln with them!
news report:

After long being sidelined for Roman excavations, an archaeological dig in western Germany has unearthed myriad traces of daily life in one of Europe’s oldest and biggest Jewish communities. From ceramic dishes and tools to toys, animal bones and jewellery, some 250,000 artefacts have so far shed light on various periods in 2,000 years of the city of Cologne’s history. And they include many piecing together Cologne’s little-known but rich Jewish history.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 1, 2013 9:24:09 PM | 78

no 77 skuppers66, that is why I call b.'s argument as foolish as the Rabbis' racism. In all probability people around the Black Sea did not become Jewish out of nowhere but Jews travelled the Roman empire which spread far and amongst other things along the Rhine. There are Jewish artefacts from the 4th century in Germany. Romans were not racist and they employed mercenaries and civil servants from all over. Germanic tribes used to cooperate and to fight them, ie the genetic pool of anybody within the boundaries of the Roman empire has to be very mixed indeed except your family has subsisted for 2000 years in a remote mountain valley (and then you probably have quite a few degenerative deseases)
It simply does not matter how your religion spread, or your forfathers travelled. My genetic pool presumably is part Slav, part Germanic, part somewhere in the Roman empire and who knows some Jewish people made it, too. What time in the development of the human race entitles you to land property? And which part of your genetic pool? And what historic struggle entitles you to kill people in revenge?
Of course none of the above. I would even argue that your father's or mother's riches do not entitle you to inherit it, but you should work yourself. So yes, there should be an inheritance tax.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 2, 2013 2:38:41 AM | 79

73) I agree. Historic facts are boring, fantasy is much better.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2013 4:41:54 PM | 76

'fantasy' involves wizards elves and monsters....what you call 'fantasy' is called lying.
in our rational secular material society, myth and fantasy are downgraded to lies and falsehoods

Posted by: brian | Apr 2, 2013 2:40:23 AM | 80

80) or madness :-))

Posted by: somebody | Apr 2, 2013 6:03:36 AM | 81

The 2001 paper (showing Israelis and Palestinians are genetically similar) that created a furore:

PubMed:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11543891?dopt=Abstract

xymphora on the storm:

https://xymphora.blogspot.ch/2002/04/suppressed-scientific-paper-on.html

Perfectly mainstream science and completely unsurprising. (Don’t know about the paper b linked to, haven’t read it, but surely it falls in the same category.)

I remember the scandal well, as the decision to remove/suppress/delete was not mine to make yet I had strong legal advisory clout and the option of writing an official dissenting opinion and creating a HEAP of trouble. Luckily the person with the ultimate say (a large academic library) was of the same mind as myself, and we simply ignored the request which came backed by the Fed. Gvmt. CH sells arms to Israel and the matter of some academic paper is to them boring trivia. However taking a cutter to excise one article in a Journal dearly paid for is censorship that is unacceptable.

The insistence on the fundamental, essential difference between ‘peoples’, stretching today to ‘genes’ or ‘genetic makeup’ etc. is simply a symptom of deep-rooted racism. Remember the Aryans etc., who only had ‘looks’ to go on. > Proof of inherent, genetic similarity of any ‘scientific’ kind it to be rejected out of hand, negated, and suppressed. (Whether the Science is good or bad is no matter.)

Of course genetic makeup is completely immaterial and has nothing whatsoever to do with Israeli ‘apartheid’, killing, etc... Men and women are more different, etc.

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 2, 2013 11:31:59 AM | 82

As a Jew, I protest this article. God damn it, we are supposed to be fairly smart. Some people would say +15IQ (if you are certified Ashkenazim, that is). And damn it, we're supposed to be fairly hip, too. - Mooser at 17.

Heh.

> Relies on definition of people by religion/ethnicity, down to the Ashkenazi thing.

> Relies on IQ which is really (if it has any validity at all) a measure of education level and fitting in to X culture (the tests are adjusted.) Scores are in any case hazardous and manipulated, and in fine, meaningless.

> makes reference to ‘hip’ .. I see that as a plea to take into account some types of domination as given, natural. Savvy, world-wise, wordy, glib. (Position and money.) Not about music or any art...
Are we supposed to accept that Jews, as a ‘group’ of some kind, and by extension, the ‘author’, are special?

Or is it all just irony? Confused guilt? If so it is misplaced, even disgusting, in its light, sarcastic supposedly humorous? treatment of issues that keep ppl in poverty and under sadistic domination etc. etc.?

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 2, 2013 12:01:23 PM | 83

BTW, if you think this is the only example of religious-social control in "Israel" (or, more properly, 'the area currently controlled by the Zionist regime' since they don't even know where their legal borders are) you got another think coming. They also have "purity squads to prevent dating, let alone marriage, between Jews and (as they call them) "Arabs".
And then, of course, there are the divisions within the Jews who have been conned or forced into moving there. Everything from "seculars, Reforms, Conservative, several flavors Orthododx, and the frummers the Haredim, and all of em at each other's throats. Any time you need a good laugh (it loosens the phlegm) listen to a "liberal Zionist" explaining how everything in Israel is the fault of those who are too Jewish! (Settlers, Ultra Orthodox, Haredim, gosg, if "Israel" was supposed to be a refuge, wouldn't it be for the Jewiest of us, who can't adapt to the modren world?)
And all the time, just across a puddle or two, there is a country where Jews are the tiniest of minorities, and the Jewish religion is completely unprotected. And Jews enjoy no special acknowledgement or governmental protection, beyond the usual ones extended to every citizen (well, we are trying for that, anyway) And yet, we do very well here in the Goldenah Medina. No anti-semitism beyond the social animus which appears sometimes, and which, frankly, people have a right to. (Okay, so Americans are more afraid of dark skin than excess rhinosity.) (Okay, they're terrified of vaginas, too, but heck, who isn't? They're usually attached to women!)
And with that staring us right in the puss, they were able to sell Zionism? Astounding, but like I say, it makes me wonder if I'm that stupid.

And I still don't understand why genetics has f--k-all to do with it.

And then there's the little problem with the word "Semitic". It's completely spurious, and describes nothing.

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 2, 2013 12:04:22 PM | 84

"The insistence on the fundamental, essential difference between ‘peoples’, stretching today to ‘genes’ or ‘genetic makeup’ etc. is simply a symptom of deep-rooted racism."

Bingo! You have hit the bulls-eye, rung the bell, and entitled to cigar or coco-nut, winner's choice.

And your personal criticisms: "misplaced, even disgusting, in its light, sarcastic supposedly humorous? treatment of issues that keep ppl in poverty and under sadistic domination" are right on! That's me all over. But I've got an MDR for irony that's worse than an opioid addiction. Guess I'll go to Humornon, and try and kick the habit, shed my skin, find some new stuff to go dancing in.

Althought one little trio of wirds, Noirette, in you post, terrified me: "Mooser at 17" Ouch!

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 2, 2013 12:16:58 PM | 85

#82 Noirette, of course, historically it is perfectly clear that Palestinians are the descendants of Jews who converted.

I used to work with a US citizen of Palestinian descent, well built and big (something they put in the baby food over there plus all this sports fanaticism ...), a group of colleagues went on a taxi ride with him in the Netherlands when the Jewish taxi driver exclaimed proudly "What a Jew!"

The German colleague who told me the story said that the atmosphere in the taxi turned embarrassingly icy after the misunderstanding was cleared up.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 2, 2013 12:17:12 PM | 86

"Confused guilt?"

And exactly what Noirette, am I guiilty of? Do I bear some of the guilt for Zionism, simply because I am Jewish? Want to explain how that works?
But for God's sake, leave out anything I did at 17! I got a histamine reaction just reading the words.

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 2, 2013 12:27:21 PM | 87

"Romans were not racist and they employed mercenaries and civil servants from all over."

Yes, an admirable lot. I remember reading the Romans were very egalitarian in who they would enslave, too. It was pretty much "come one, come all" in that department, huh?

Posted by: Mooser | Apr 2, 2013 12:35:59 PM | 88

88) frankly speaking from a German point of view

have you ever seen the ruins of a Roman villa with heated floors because they knew about heat going to the top and aquaeducts and all that ..

do you know what German winters mean? ... they had these villaes in the area of German tribes

do you realize how bad the heating was in German medieval castles centuries later?

do you wonder why all these Germanic tribes from occupied Italy, Germany, Britain wanted to go on a crusade?

then you realise that Romans were way ahead of their times ...

and we owe it to Muslims that we know of how ahead of their times they were

Posted by: somebody | Apr 2, 2013 2:37:42 PM | 89

89) plus do you realise that kids in the ex empire are still forced to learn Latin :-))

then you understand the power of the Roman Empire.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 2, 2013 2:44:12 PM | 90

@76

The real fantasy is continuing to believe the biblical narrative that all the Jews in the world are descendents of ancient Israelis.

Posted by: clubofrome | Apr 2, 2013 6:37:53 PM | 91

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