Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 10, 2013

"They let terrorist heads live on their territory"

Sep 28, 2012: There are Countries who Do Not Want to See an End to PKK Terror
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said there were countries which did not want to see an end to PKK terror.

Speaking live on private NTV and Star TV channels, Erdogan stressed that Western countries did not want to solve the problem of PKK terror.

"Germany does not want a solution. France does not want a solution," Erdogan underlined.

"These countries do not help us. Instead, they let terrorist heads live on their territory," Erdogan emphasized.

Someone decided to change that.

Jan 9, 2013: 3 Kurdish women political activists shot dead in Paris

Three Kurdish women political activists were found dead with gunshots to the head early Thursday, police in Paris said, in an unexplained act of violence that has shocked the Kurdish community.

French Interior Minister Manuel Valls told reporters in Paris the three women had been "without doubt executed" and described the killings as "totally unacceptable."

The bodies were found about 2 a.m. in the Information Center for Kurdistan in Paris, in a central district of the capital, a police representative said.


Posted by b on January 10, 2013 at 15:48 UTC | Permalink


Can anyone imagine what would have been the situation if the assassinated Kurdish activists were from Iranian Kurdish parties??

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jan 10 2013 15:54 utc | 1

What am I saying?? This has already happened to Iranian Kurdish activists....I wonder how the Western reaction to this event will compare to their reactions to the assassination in Mykonos... :)

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jan 10 2013 16:13 utc | 2

Hahaha, Erdogan doesn't like it when anti-government factions are supported by another country? What a hypocrite! He has been doing the same thing against Assad.

Posted by: Fernando | Jan 10 2013 16:49 utc | 3


Actually the incident didn't impact the trend of the Iran-Europe relation at all:

After years of acrymony between revolutionnnary Iran and different countries of Europe, in 1992, right after Mykonos incident, Europe initiated he official policy called the "critical dialogue" toward IRI.

Five years later, in April 1997, a German court "found" iranian leadership "responsible" for the assassination of the Kurdish activists. Europe then suspended the "critical dialogue". Five months later, in September 1997, Europe, taking pretext of Khatami's "surprise" election, upgraded its relation with Iran and replaced the "critical dialogue" policy by "comprehensive dialogue".

On the other side of Atlantic US was going opposite direction. From Iran-Contra cooperation at the time of Reagan, she switched to "dual containement" with Indyk/Christopher/Clinton in 1992, to ILSA abd consort in the second term of Clinton and to "axis of evil" of Bush fils; not to mention the latest sabotage and terrorism covert policy.

All this to say that the incidents like the ones you are mentioning have certainely PR and propaganda usage but they don't affect the long-term strategic direction.

Posted by: ATH | Jan 10 2013 17:03 utc | 4

Erdogan is expressing the usual hypocrisy--my freedom fighter is your terrorist. Last I checked, Istanbul hosts a nest of Syrian terrorists.

Assad should come out with a statement that parrots and mocks Erdogan's BS.

Posted by: JohnH | Jan 10 2013 17:07 utc | 5

Who was behind PKK assassination in Paris?

"On Wednesday there were reports in the Turkish media that an agreement had been reached on a plan to end the conflict which has raged on since 1984 and has claimed over 40,000 lives.

There are many on all sides to the conflict that are against any kind of a peace settlement. These include Turkish elements who do not want to see the Kurds receive any kind of recognition or autonomy and among radical elements of the PKK itself who do not want to see any concessions made to Ankara and who believe that any kind of a peace plan will include giving up certain demands.

It is important to recall that Turkey recently authorized military incursions into Iran, supposedly for operations where the Turkish Regular Army is in hot pursuit of PKK militants.

With military build ups by NATO and the US in the region and the constant search for a pretext to invade Iran and Syria, there are many of those actors who would also see any kind of peace as detrimental to planned provocations and optional scenarios which will allow for an invasion of either Iran or Syria.

According to Reuters Remzi Kartal, a Kurdistan National Congress leader, said: "This is a political crime, there is no doubt about it. Ocalan and the Turkish government have started a peace process, they want to engage in dialogue, but there are parties that are against resolving the Kurdish question and want to sabotage the peace process."

Kind of like when any negotiation progress "threatens" between Palestine and Israel, Israel assassinates some Palestinians so it will have an excuse to sabotage those negotiations.

Posted by: вот так | Jan 10 2013 17:49 utc | 6

The big question is how can we blame this on the Iranians? After all Turkey is a country just across Iran's western border.

Posted by: Paul | Jan 10 2013 17:55 utc | 7


"The big question is how can we blame this on the Iranians? After all Turkey is a country just across Iran's western border."

:) That was a really good one!
But seriously I am very curious to know how the French police will "solve" this mystery!! whodunit??? :)

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jan 10 2013 18:39 utc | 8

Inspector Clouseau?

Posted by: par4 | Jan 10 2013 18:46 utc | 9

I think the Syrians did it... to frame the Turks

They blame everything on the Syrians these days, why not this :)

Thank you, I'll be here all week

Posted by: OAB | Jan 10 2013 18:51 utc | 10

Why three expatriate sympathetic looking women running a cultural center?
What would anybody in their right mind think to have gained by that?

Posted by: somebody | Jan 10 2013 18:52 utc | 11

somebody at #11

A signal for sure. Most likely targeting the entire current PKK political leadership. Since an internal feud between factions regarding policy would have either directly targeted the opposing ideological figure(s) in the field with the objective of physically eliminating them or the lower level operatives under them, again in the field, to sow terror and deter the ideological opponent(s). These ladies were the PR face of the whole organisation in France / EU. They didn't have any operation role in the field and their assassination doesn't help either "faction". I would say this is an act ordered from outside PKK.

I also suspect that french intel was aware of the act before hand. This area of Paris has the second and third biggest train stations in the city right next to each other and is heavily guarded by security elements.

Posted by: ATH | Jan 10 2013 19:23 utc | 12

It depends. Were the 3 women in favour or opposed to reconciliation with the Turkish Government?

Reminds me of the incident last year when a British/Iraqi man was killed execution style with his family on holiday in France. We were later fobbed off with remarks that the attack was probably a random act by a random psycho. I wonder if the French authorities will treat the death of these three women the same way. If it's a Government job, then yes, because they're in cahoots.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if this latest incident is ultimately blamed on the Syrian Government who, we will be told, attempted to sabotage talks between the Kurds and the Turkish Government through fear that a peace deal would shift the Kurdish position on the Syrian conflict towards the opposition; thereby mobilising the Kurds against them anyway.

The Turkish Government will hope that the incident looks too crude, too obvious for them to be blamed.

The timing of renewed negotiations was suspicious - and these deaths compound my suspicion that the Turkish Government is up to something.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jan 10 2013 19:25 utc | 13

This could be the next face of the regional re-configuration with the target being Turkey itself. The first shot in the Kurdish winter in Turkey's being fired in France and it will be burning Erdogan in its wake.

You see, Erdogan's too stupid to see he's a mere pawn in this game. Turkey is also slated to be destabilized and if possible, broken into little statelets.

On the issue of Syria, Erdogan's toast as well.. I doubt he sleeps well at night knowing well that the man he's sought to overthrow is still there and not only that, gaining against his enemies day by day.

We're living in interesting times, indeed..

Posted by: Zico | Jan 10 2013 19:42 utc | 14

Posted by: ATH | Jan 10, 2013 2:23:18 PM | 12

Sure, I know the area, part of it is red light. There will be cameras.

Well, getting killed presumably was their biggest PR success, as no one in Europe will believe Erdogan that these are terrorists.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 10 2013 20:43 utc | 15

Might be interesting whose wives these women were... otherwise the main statement is something like "look how mean we are". Executing 3 seemingly harmless women will hardly earn you any sympathies from anyone, so.

Posted by: peter radiator | Jan 10 2013 20:49 utc | 16

I would say this is a 25 minutes walk from Pigalles ;)
...but pretty close to both Gare de l'Est and Gare du Nord. I was working overnight in a hotel in the area during part of my college days. It was infested by security people.

Posted by: ATH | Jan 10 2013 21:05 utc | 17

Sakine Cansiz: 'a legend among PKK members

Posted by: somebody | Jan 10 2013 21:51 utc | 18

It is developing into a Turkish French embarrassement - fast

Activistes kurdes tuées à Paris : Hollande dénonce des meurtres "horribles"

Le président François Hollande a qualifié d"horrible" le meurtre à Paris dans la nuit de mercredi 9 à jeudi 10 janvier de trois militantes kurdes. "C'est horrible, [cela touche] directement trois personnes dont l'une [était] connue de moi et de beaucoup d'acteurs politiques car elle venait régulièrement nous rencontrer, a déclaré le chef de l'Etat. Pour l'instant, l'enquête est engagée et je crois qu'il vaut mieux attendre pour qu'on connaisse bien les causes et les auteurs."

Posted by: somebody | Jan 10 2013 22:25 utc | 19

Why is Israel watching the PKK? - Al Monitor

Posted by: somebody | Jan 10 2013 23:58 utc | 20

more fun

A Kurdish state?

"Would Turkey really support the creation of an independent Kurdish state? Why should it if a huge portion of Turkey’s territory and people would aspire to join in that new state? Or, are the game-makers planning to enhance Turkey with the addition of the Ottoman Mosul province?

So it might have been Mossad, Iraq, the Turkish deep state, Syria/Iran or a PKK faction. Who else?

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 0:09 utc | 21

"It is the first time that such a senior member of the PKK has been killed in Europe. There has been a tacit agreement between the PKK and the Turkish government that no such high-profile attacks would be carried out against either senior PKK members or senior members of the government.

During the 1980s, there were some attacks believed to be from within the Turkish state against members of the militant Armenian group Asala, but there have been no political assassinations targeting the PKK."

Guney Yildiz
BBC Turkish

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 11 2013 0:12 utc | 22


"Why Is Israel Watching the PKK?"

The same reason they monitored what a certain group of future airline "pilots" were doing in the USA prior to their fateful flights in Sep., 2001. They need to keep track of their charges to make sure they do the "right things", in the instructed order, and don't get distracted by the "wrong things".

Posted by: вот так | Jan 11 2013 0:12 utc | 23

It's worth remembering that the Mykonos restaurant assassinations also came at a time that the Iranian government was seriously negotiating with Iranian-Kurdish opposition leaders for a cease-fire/peace agreement. The Iranian historian Abdollah Shahbazi, citing sources and evidence, attributes the murders to a rogue faction within the Iranian Intelligence Ministry, and further puts the blame (again, providing "some" evidence, convincing or not) that the rogue faction was a Mossad connected/directed group. Recall that infiltrations of the Iranian intelligence apparatus have happened quite a few times in the past, as is common with inexperienced ideologically driven (and fooled) revolutionay movements (e.g. assassination of President Rajai and Prime Minister Bahonar).

Posted by: Paul | Jan 11 2013 1:28 utc | 24

A timing of the crime is interesting, and was not arbitrary. Who executed them?

Maybe those who "poisoned" PM Turgut Özal who was on the brink of similar settlement while he was alive. Who killed Armenian journalist's Dink? Who planted numerous car-bombs in Turkish cities? Who organized fascist terror group Grey Wolfs? And, many others crimes.

Various US/NATO administrations had organized in essence terrorist group within each member state throughout the Nato block in operation codenamed Operation Gladio or Strategy of Tension.

In Turkish part, there is secretive security unit of Turkish gendarmerie JİTEM which was in charge to fight leftists and anything what resemble socialists. JİTEM is believed to have been responsible for thousands of unsolved murders in eastern and southeastern Turkey in the 1990s. For long time is was even questionable its existence. Have Erdogan putted them under control? Are they still remnants of JITEM? Difficult to say.

Mybe Erdogan learned lesson from Özal, surrounded himself with tight security so he couldn't be assassinated.

Second theory:

Abdullah Öcalan is still controlling the PKK, except of small fraction, negotiations with Turkish Gov. allegedly advancing fairly well. Was she in that "small fraction", was she obstacle in peace process? I personally doubt it, but time will tell, if ever. Many revolutions eats its own children.

I feel sorry for them, they won't see realization of its life dream they are worked for - the freedom and life with dignity for own people.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 11 2013 1:54 utc | 25


I don't think anyone can feel politically sorry for not "seeing the realization of its life dream they are worked for..." These people are ultra stalinist marxist-leninists. Though I believe that this terrorist act was ordered by the same people that were "negotiating" for a "peaceful settlement" of the kurdish problem. As one commentator here rightfully observed, the message is "we are the meanest". Exactly the same kind of message that is still coming out of Gitmo.

Posted by: ATH | Jan 11 2013 2:35 utc | 26


Your comment is sort of silly.

"These people are ultra stalinist marxist-leninists." Originally yes, and I am pretty sure without that "stalinist", but I believe they abandon that.

Even if they still are "stalinist marxist-leninists", so what? They had devoted their life to the Kurdistan's cause and they paid the price, their ideology is their own choice. I have nothing but admiration for them.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 11 2013 2:55 utc | 27


I didn't mean to disrespect them. I am sorry for their fate. I can even feel some kind of admiration for them.
But, with due respect, I can not feel sorry for them because "they won't see realization of its life dream they are worked for". I frequented these people, without sharing their ideology though, and I personally believe that if they were able to realize their dream (and those were stanilist dreams) it would have been hell in Kurdistan.

Posted by: ATH | Jan 11 2013 3:41 utc | 28

Being one whose analysis of the fake War on Terror always keeps one eye on who's a coward and who's not, my money is on the perps of this un-heroic act being either American or 'Israeli'. Both prefer the softest targets imaginable. It's a safety-first thing.
Although the French aren't famous for their unflinching heroism, either.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 11 2013 4:33 utc | 29

"Abdullah Öcalan is still controlling the PKK"
no self respecting nationalist guerilla would let themselves control by a leader in prison.
Öcalan is a symbol. Turkey has to release the PKK members in their prisons for a deal. They do not want them to live in Turkey. That is what negotiations are about.

PKK is internatally ruthless. It is a consequence of the illegality. And they put pressure on Kurdish workers and small business people to pay "taxes".

Obviously the assassins meant to go after the most symbolic person next to Ocalan outside of prison who would be able to back a deal.

The fact that Turkey attempts a deal is interesting to say the least. If Turkey is dealing with the imprisoned leadership exclusively, PKK has a problem. If Turkey tries to split the PKK they are fools.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 6:59 utc | 30


"These people are ultra stalinist marxist-leninists."

LOL. That's like neocon-rightwing-libertarian-liberals. You do realise what that means?

Posted by: вот так | Jan 11 2013 7:19 utc | 31

Actually, France must have a very good idea who did it. In Germany, the PKK is wiretapped relentlessly. This was done in a known PKK center.
It is sure to be watched from all sides.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 8:23 utc | 32

And there is also this - which widens the group of suspects

Total said in serious talks with KRG

* French major seeking to build on Iraq presence

* Exxon still silent on its Kurdistan deal

By Patrick Markey and Peg Mackey

BAGHDAD, Feb 9 (Reuters) - France's Total is preparing the ground to become the next oil major to move into Iraqi Kurdistan, negotiating over two blocks following Exxon Mobil's deal with the semi-autonomous region last year, Kurdish and industry sources said.

Any contract between Total and the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) risks exacerbating a feud between the Kurds and the Arab-dominated central government, which has already warned that Exxon's deal violates Baghdad's control over oil resources.

Since Kurdish officials announced the deal with Exxon last year, other majors have watched its outcome as they mull their own possible forays into Kurdistan or opportunities to snatch up smaller players already working there.

So far Total has signed no agreement, but KRG sources and oil executives say the French company has been in serious negotiations over two blocks, Pulkhana and Taza, which border disputed territories claimed by Baghdad and Arbil.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 8:30 utc | 33

FYI - Unique Footage Of A Thermobaric Bomb Dropped Over Syria.

Posted by: Daniel Rich | Jan 11 2013 9:19 utc | 34

Very brief and looks very fake - too lazy or incompetent to film the impact .... anybody can photoshop a bomb on a google map in different frames.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 9:46 utc | 35


I don't think what I said was neo-con. Their political project in the "middle-east" is (was?) to agressively shape it into the strategic interests of Israel. A country seen by them like, let's say, the 51st US state but by far the most important of all. The PKK, PJAK, Barzani's ilk or other "freedom fighters" for the cause of Kurdistan are, now and here, the ones that fit the best into this overall political plan.

As far as not adhering to their ideal. That is a personnal choice. I do consider Marx though as a great thinker and feel that if I was living at his time I would have most likely been politically on his side.

Posted by: ATH | Jan 11 2013 14:05 utc | 36

36) I think what vat tak was saying is that marxists have nothing got to do with either stalinism nor leninism (or the PKK)
just like neocons have nothing to do with either libertarians or liberals
I think it is legitimate to compare PKK with IRA or ETA
Marx' position on ethnic nationalism was dialectic to say the least.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 14:24 utc | 37


We all speculating here, some of speculations are based in reality some not, but your post isn't even that. It is drivel and worst than that you are clueless.


"just like neocons have nothing to do with either libertarians or liberals"

Incidentally, I read while ago this: , and he is quite correct:

"That is absolutely NOT the message of this article. The message is this: libertarisnism is a bogus ideology concocted by some very unusual people. It was also a massively impractical doctrine and its founders knew it. So, they allied themselves with more moderate people — who came to be known as neoliberals — in order to get their policies in place in watered down form.

Neoliberalism grew, quite organically, out of libertarian ideology. The latter is not a real political stance. It’s just a cop out and a fantasy. One that allows people to broadly support neoliberalism in the hope that they’re furthering the agenda of “the market”. The libertarians may THINK that they’re seperate from the neoliberals, but they’re not. They’re one and the same."

You appear to be Lindon LaRouche guy or either of one of Paul’s family supporter. Either way some of above described flavor of liberal-democracy BS.

"I think it is legitimate to compare PKK with IRA or ETA"

Again, you are clueless.

Kurds are very much oppressed (you have a link that I posted if you don't bother to read, do so) in every single state in East Asia. In Syria they have been, until recently practically - Stateless. On very basic level the Kurds are fighting for recognition. Which is not the case with Catholics in N. Ireland and the Basks in Spain, BTW Baskia is the most developed province in Spain. Both ethnic groups speak own language and enjoy certain autonomy in education and religious rights as opposed to Kurds who has few or none. So, any comparison of the PKK with IRA and ETA is foolish.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 11 2013 15:04 utc | 38

lapsus calami

Instead East Asia, it should be West Asia or Asia Minor.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 11 2013 15:09 utc | 39

a) PKK is hardly the only representation of "the oppressed Kurds"(I don't think they can be lumped together like that) there are lots of competing parties and there has never been a referendum if Kurds want to be represented by PKK (same applies to IRA and ETA)
b) illegality and the need to procure money and weapons breed the same type of deformation, i.e. extortion, involvement in drug and weapons trade, the execution of supposed "traitors" and the lack of private space/relationships of members (applies to PKK, IRA, ETA)
c) extortion of "national tax" is a pain on Kurdish business people and workers who are terrorized by it (same applies to ETA and the Mafia, this activity to procure money and weapons is always in danger of becoming an aim in itself instead of a mean to achieve political aims.
d) the decision process within these organizations is opaque, cannnot be controlled by members (applies to all illegal "secret" organizations, and is an invitation for secret services to plant their agents or "influence" the membership - see e.g this story of a PKK split which might be relevant to the murder.

Of course Turkish governments have been responsible for driving Kurdish nationalists into illegality by oppressing language, culture and legal parties, same as Spain/France governments were with Basques and Great Britain was with Ireland.

PKK is a double edged sword for Kurdish people. Their terror on their own membership and constituency is as real as their present efficiency in fighting the Turkish state though for whose agenda is unclear.

Coming back to lumping Kurds together - Kurdish people have been suppressed and murdered in Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. So does supporting the Kurdish fight mean to support Kurdish independence in Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey or is there selective support for different agendas?

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 16:38 utc | 40

Why three expatriate sympathetic looking women running a cultural center?

Such a cultural center is a post for political outreach - contacts, being in meetings, participating, organizing, all informal. Soft power kinda stuff.

What would anybody in their right mind think to have gained by that?

Possibly nothing much. But this killing is imho as best hypothesis an internal PKK affair.

It need not even be a matter of core policy /strategy - all pol orgs. of that type have ‘lone nuts’ + dissident factions...

Not that a ordinary killing is excluded, a personal grudge one .. (I don’t know the details from the crime scene.) The women are politically branded, so we latch onto that.

Ocalan cannot speak for the PKK. What on earth are the negotiations supposed to be about?

Posted by: Noirette | Jan 11 2013 17:35 utc | 41

41) Trying to split the PKK?

Like this - Zaman is not necessarily a true source for this but it shows the line they - close to the AKP government - are thinking
Order to sabotage peace talks comes from Pkk Leader Bahoz

or like this in the past

It is claimed the defections are part of a US plan to undermine the terrorist group

and well there is this famous Mandela quote
"prisoners cannot negotiate"

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 18:06 utc | 42

"prisoners cannot negotiate"

If Mandela, that Western pawn say so, than it must be the truth.

So, why then Turkish Gov. sent chief of intelligence to Ocalan? To have a coffee.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 11 2013 18:51 utc | 43

43) Of course it would be a coup for the Turkish government if they could get Ocalan to announce peace. I do not see how the PKK could take that without a split.

How much information do you think Öcalan has of what really is going on? Do you think the PKK would tell him in his prison cell sure that the Turkish secret service listens? How much information do you think the PKK has on Öcalans state of (mental) health?

This here is from October 2012 - not so long ago

The brother of jailed Kurdistan Workers' Party's (PKK) chief Abdullah Öcalan has said he does not know whether he will visit his brother, after the Interior Ministry announced, in response to a series of hunger strikes at various prisons, that it had removed all obstacles to family visits to İmralı island, where Öcalan is incarcerated.

More than 600 inmates -- although 182 have recently stopped according to some reports -- have been on a hunger strike for 49 days, demanding an end to what they claim is the isolation of Öcalan, who has not been allowed to talk to his lawyers for the past 15 months or anyone else with the exception of his brother, Mehmet Öcalan, who saw him once.

Officially, Öcalan is free to have visitors, but the authorities have come up with excuses -- such as adverse weather conditions for a ferry ride to the island -- to block would-be visitors in the past 15 months, suggesting the presence of a de facto ban on visitors to the island. The restriction is likely to have come after Turkish intelligence sources said they suspected that some PKK attacks were direct orders from Öcalan, carried to the terrorist network through his lawyers.

Look neretva'43, these things are obvious. Do I really have to point them out?

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 19:29 utc | 44


"I don't think what I said was neo-con."

"Somebody" already explained what I meant and I'm just confirming that. Your "ultra stalinist marxist-leninists" are about as logical a political group as "neocon-rightwing-libertarian-liberals" would be.

Posted by: вот так | Jan 11 2013 19:33 utc | 45

Reminds me of the incident last year when a British/Iraqi man was killed execution style with his family on holiday in France. We were later fobbed off with remarks that the attack was probably a random act by a random psycho. I wonder if the French authorities will treat the death of these three women the same way. If it's a Government job, then yes, because they're in cahoots. - Pat B.

I live right next door and know the place that Brit family were killed. The press and gossip here has been endless. Not much is known as the F police has not communicated openly. There have been leaks which have been denied. And so on.

Particularly, the specifics of the crime scene have not been revealed, or not in the detail that someone like me would like.

The F police has been extremely defensive.

1) They arrived speedily but did not take imho the measures to catch the perp on the ground, as he was close by, not far away

2) they left the crime scene intact before the forensics etc. (as per protocol) so did not discover a 4 year-old child, alive, amongst the dead in the car, for 9 hours or more. (She lived. The other little girl also, given up for dead...)

This is so horrendous that they have clammed up.

3) the Proc (like a DA) who is communicating about all this is a class A 1 sleazy clueless xxx, everybody hates him and cringes.

So far, nothing suggests itself. It might be just some random killing.

Sarkozy jawed endlessly about law and order etc. but practically destroyed the F police (not to mention the judiciary) on the ground. With - yes - lack of funding, crazy demands, etc.

Hollande won the elections in part because of this, though the Socialists could not run on a ‘security ticket’...

Just to say that the F police are-ham fisted, underfunded, subject to strange structures (central organization not well run) as well as political pressure. In fact I’d go so far as to say that F police-and up the line, the judiciary, are no longer really independent (if they ever were, that is another discussion.) Hollande, imho, has done nothing so far to change that. So anything is possible, and one should be suspicious.

The words to Goog: F: Tuerie de Chevaline. Eng: Annecy murders / killings / shootings, Chevaline slaughter / murder / murder in the Alps

Posted by: Noirette | Jan 11 2013 19:40 utc | 46

The keys to an answer are actually in the question above. The identities of the victims reveal important points. Sakine Cansiz, said to be above 55 years of age, was an important figure inside the PKK. She was among the core that founded the PKK with Abdullah Ocalan. As such, she had a substantial and emblematic position in the history of the Kurdish movement. We are told that she spent 10 years in the Diyarbakir Prison, notorious for torture and ill treatment of Kurdish prisoners, following the 1980 military coup and that she had become one of the symbols of resistance in prison. Sakine Cansiz was a prominent name among politicized Kurdish women. With all her particulars and background, she won’t be simply forgotten by Kurdish nationalists.

"The U.S. ambassador to Ankara Francis Ricciardone revealed on October 16 that the Turkish government rejected the U.S. proposal for joint venture extermination of Murat Karayılan and other leaders of the Kurdish PKK in northern Iraq are exposing irreparably Turkish government. As stated by the American ambassador in Turkish journalists, Washington submitted this proposal to the Turkish government to launch an operation similar to that which led to the killing of Osama Bin Laden. Rejection of the U.S. proposal was confirmed by Turkey’s Prime Minister Tayyip Erdoğan, who merely stated that the bin Laden executed in this house when clashes with Kurdish rebels extend to larger mountains. The answer to the seemingly incomprehensible attitude of Turkey lies perhaps in today’s statement by the Turkish Prime Minister that “MIT can conduct talks with the imprisoned Abdullah Öcalan if this is a necessary step towards eradicating terrorism in the country …”.

Posted by: neretva'43. | Jan 11 2013 19:46 utc | 47


some clues?

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 11 2013 19:48 utc | 48

Want more clues, somebody?

Contacts with imprisoned PKK Leader Abdullah Ocalan is one of the approaches to solve the Kurdish issue. But it is not enough. He is the first among equals, but his personal decision will not lead the PKK to give up its arms. The president of the Iraqi Kurdistan Region, Massoud Barzani, is essential for a solution with the PKK. What is important now is what the PKK’s armed wing, based in Iraq’s Kandil mountains, wants.

Deputy Prime Minister Besir Atalay recently said that contacts with the imprisoned Ocalan is one approach to solving the Kurdish issue, while they are making contacts with other parties located within and outside Turkish borders. Let's start with Ocalan.

Ocalan is indeed an important figure. He is first among equals, but his personal decision will not lead to PKK to give up its arms. But...

If Ocalan doesn't approve the disarmament of the PKK, even if all other parties unite in backing this endeavor, the effort would fail. This is why I say Ocalan's position is the first among equals. Let me elaborate on other factors.

If you still clueless, you are irreparably lost case.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 11 2013 19:59 utc | 49

An interview with one of the Kurdish leaders on the womens' assassination and the timing of it:

State Security behind murder of Kurdish ‘resistance symbol’

Posted by: вот так | Jan 11 2013 20:03 utc | 50

49, :-)) clues like these ?

Yalçın Akdoğan, Prime Minister Erdoğan's chief advisor and Justice and Development Party (AK Party) deputy, revealed some of the details of the meetings between Öcalan and the MİT.

Akdoğan, speaking to the daily Taraf, emphasized the fact that it would not be enough to have Öcalan call for a tactical ceasefire. The meetings should result in the expectation that the PKK will lay down its arms.

Akdoğan further argued, “Some groups, including the PKK, could damage the meetings process between the MİT and Öcalan, however, the AK Party government is determined to continue the negotiation process.”

There are many reasons to be skeptical about the possibility of getting any tangible results out of Öcalan and the MİT negotiations: Is it really possible for the AK Party and the MİT to end the meeting process successfully? How effective would Abdullah Öcalan be in bringing about a possible peace? Would the PKK listen to Öcalan without questioning his decision, his authority, and his order? Would the PKK in Europe listen what Öcalan says? Is the MİT really calculating the events in the right ways?

To me, it seems that the fundamental problem with such negotiations starts at the very beginning. The MİT thinks that almost all leaders of the PKK are somehow in the control of foreign intelligence agencies. Therefore, according to the MİT, Öcalan is the only viable leader who is not under any foreign intelligence agency's influence, and therefore the MİT thinks that empowering Öcalan's position is critical. If Turkey reinforces his position and makes him the undeniable leader of the PKK once again, then they could ask Öcalan to end the PKK violence in return for some guarantees given to Öcalan.

This calculation reveals two major problems: First, how much can you trust Öcalan? Öcalan is a very practical leader who has survived this long, and helped the PKK to survive for this long, because of his pragmatism. It would be a grave mistake to think that once he became the undeniable leader of the organization, he would end the violence.

I think Öcalan is smart enough to use the MİT's offer to become the indisputable leader, for sure, and then use that position to remove some of his opposition from within the PKK, which he could not do back in 2004, and then once he established a solid leadership council that would obey him and carry on the PKK's mission after his death, he would say a nice good-bye to the MİT. What Öcalan is trying to do is to secure the future of the PKK, not his own future. Therefore the MİT's calculation is wrong from the very beginning.

Second, we don't know what kind of changes we will see in the region. Consequently, what the MİT is trying to do is a very risky step. For instance, we don't know whether the Kurds and Arabs in Syria will fight over the oil-rich Hasaki region of Syria, an area currently under PKK control.

I don't think that the PKK would give up easily what they have gained in Syria. Forget about controlling the Hasaki region; in order to prepare itself, the PKK armed and trained 15,000 Kurds in Syria to prepare for an intense fight over the oil-rich territory. Once the PKK is able to control the rich Syrian province, would Turkey's plan of using Öcalan to convince PKK to lay down its arms be possible? I don't think so.

I think both Öcalan and the PKK see that they need some time to prepare for a better fight in Syria to control the oil rich Kurdish region after the regime of President Bashar al-Assad has ended. What MİT is trying to do is just aiding the PKK to control the oil of Syria.

That is yet another stupidity of the Turkish intelligence agency to deal with its enemy.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 20:19 utc | 51

more clues:

The Spokesperson for the U.S. Department of State, Victoria Nuland on Thursday said that they believed the talks between the Turkish government and the head of the terrorist organization PKK, Abdullah Ocalan at the Imrali island were a "positive development."

Speaking at a daily press conference, Victoria Nuland indicated that they encouraged Turkey to handle the issue of domestic terror by getting in touch with the Kurds and other marginal societies and to consider the issue from various angles and with a wide approach.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 21:32 utc | 52

"ultra stalinist marxist-leninists" I think he means what V.I. Lenin described as "Left-Wing" Communists, unwilling to adapt their ideology to the concrete conditions they face. qv Left-wing communism: an infantile disorder.

Posted by: ruralito | Jan 11 2013 22:14 utc | 53

more clues - Wikileaks 2007 US targets Sakine Cengiz
"6. (S) Our immediate goal is to deny the PKK use of the
European financial and air transport systems to move money
from Europe into northern Iraq for their operations. We can
accomplish this via enhanced intelligence sharing, more
careful airport screening and strict enforcement of cash
declaration requirements. We also should press the Europeans
to take action against the two most notorious PKK/KGK
financiers in Europe, Riza Altun and Sakine Cansiz. Riza
Altun is known to be a top PKK financier. He fled judicial
arrest in France in July and Austrian authorities allowed him
to fly to Iraq on July 13, but he recently has been seen
traveling again in Europe. Sakine Cansiz is a PKK/KGK
financier and weapons and tactical strategist. She was
arrested in Germany but released by a Hamburg court on April
27 after 40 days of detention and remains in Europe. Their
re-arrest and prosecution would limit PKK/KGK activities and
signal that Europe is not a free zone for PKK/KGK

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2013 22:59 utc | 54

Erdogan losing his nerves

French President Francois Hollande must explain to the world why he held meetings with terrorists wanted by Interpol, the Turkish prime minister said at a business conference Jan.12.

Issuing harsh criticism on European countries' treatment of the terrorist organization, Erdogan stated that the murdered Sakine Cansiz, one of the founding members of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), had been placed in custody in Germany in 2007, but was released soon after.

"We notified French Interpol just two months ago," Erdogan said. "France didn't do anything about it."

"The French head of state must explain why he was seeing these terrorists," Erdogan said.
Hollande had previously said he knew one of the three women killed in Paris on Jan.9 and that she was known to many political actors in the country.

PKK has done this before

Erdogan then accused the PKK of conducting similar assasinations before.

"Is the terrorist organization pure and clean? Have they never done this before? Many young men and children have been killed like that. Even Cansiz' fiance, Mehmet Sener, was killed like that'" Erdogan said.

"Those who try to blame this on the state were incapable of questioning such internal assassinations within the organization," Erdogan said.

PM urges French authorities to uncover the truth in murders

Erdogan further called on French authorities to double their efforts in order to shed light on the assasinations as quickly as possible.

"This may have been done to sabotage the ongoing process in Turkey," Erdogan said. "We expect the French state to immediately shed light on this."

conclusion: 1) Sakine Cansiz was not close to Öcalan. That part of Western reporting is suspiciously wrong. Her fiance Mehmet Sener was Öcalan's rival and it was Öcalan's faction who killed him.

2)Turkey seems likely to be implicated.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 12 2013 13:35 utc | 55

The Guardian cut this photograph to insinuate Öcalan and Sakine Cansiz were a couple.
This is the real photo - Öcalan and two female fighters - none of them look happy or romantically involved.

Why did the Guardian cut the photograph in this misleading way?

Posted by: somebody | Jan 12 2013 14:26 utc | 56

Posted by: вот так | Jan 12 2013 17:04 utc | 57

"conclusion: 1) Sakine Cansiz was not close to Öcalan. That part of Western reporting is suspiciously wrong. Her fiance Mehmet Sener was Öcalan's rival and it was Öcalan's faction who killed him."

It is difficult to agree with that "conclusion".

"But these are all speculative scenarios and it is the French police who will tell us the end of the story, if there is one."

Regarding your "conclusion". In this not signed a piece journalist says:

"Some reports say she was among the few to control PKK money in Europe (an estimated 4-5 billion euros a year), with alleged links to drug trafficking and extortion from workers of Kurdish origin there, according to the U.S. Treasury and Turkish intelligence reports."

Aside BS of drugs trafficking when it is known the Turkey is major producer and distributer of narcotics. I do not believe in a figures stated, but imposing question: how come someone not being trusted is in position to managed with vast amount of money?

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jan 12 2013 17:14 utc | 58

yes, it is amazing what a high profile person whose organization is acknowledged as terrorist in the EU and who is under surveillance can do in France, don't you think :-))

Turkey, the PKK and a Kurdish settlement

Posted by: somebody | Jan 12 2013 18:37 utc | 59

Ah, found it. Reuters Canada and a Turkish "analyst who used to work in the Turkish counterterrorism police unit" did not get the memo that Sakine Cansiz was a close confidante of Öcalan and took part in the peace negotiations with MIT.

Turkish political analyst Emre Uslu, who previously worked in Turkey's counter-terrorism police unit, said in a blog that the killing of Cansiz could point to a split within the PKK.

He said Cansiz was a leading member of a faction within the PKK that had in the past opposed Ocalan's moves towards peace.

"For Turkey to sit down with the PKK before its internal problems are solved is considerably problematic," Uslu said.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 12 2013 19:49 utc | 60

This has nothing to do with the Kurdish people assassinated, but took place in Turkey. I had not seen anything about that mosque desecration they are protesting about.

Turkish protesters condemn US forces over mosque attack

"The protest was held on Saturday in the province of Adana, home to the Incirlik Air Base, where US troops are stationed.

The demonstrators demanded that the culprits be identified and punished. They also called for the expulsion of the US troops from Turkey.

The rally came after reports that a group of drunk US soldiers broke the windows of a mosque and destroyed copies of the Qur'an on New Year's Eve.

The Adana Governor's office is said to have launched an investigation into the allegations.

The Turkish military denies the sacrilegious move was committed by US troops."

Posted by: вот так | Jan 13 2013 8:50 utc | 61

Another perspective on this wet job:

Posted by: Martin | Jan 13 2013 10:07 utc | 62

62) obviously. that is why such a large part of Western media tries to establish that Sakine Cansiz "was a close confidante of Öcalan" which is a bit much considering the fact that her fiance was killed by the Öcalan faction.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 13 2013 10:23 utc | 63

You see, Erdogan's too stupid to see he's a mere pawn in this game. Turkey is also slated to be destabilized and if possible, broken into little statelets.

Posted by: Cleaners London | Jan 15 2013 20:38 utc | 64

Israel yanks the string a little and:

"Kurdish deputy: Iran could be behind Paris killings
Mardin deputy of the pro-Kurdish Peace and Democracy Party Ahmet Türk pointed to Iran as a possible culprit in killings of the three Kurdish women last week.

“Finding a solution to the Kurdish issue would make Turkey the sole power in the region. For this reason, Iran could be the one responsible [for the killings]. It happened before too,” Türk claimed.

The deputy said he is not speaking based on evidence but is just speculating."

Like those people ever based their propaganda and smears on evidence.

Posted by: вот так | Jan 16 2013 15:30 utc | 65

Police arrest suspects in murder of Kurdish activists in Paris

"French police have arrested two people on suspicion of murdering three Kurdish female activists which last week caused a wave of protests in Paris.

Currently investigators are questioning the detainees.

On the night of January 10 in Paris the bodies of three women were discovered, each of whom had been shot in the head. All three victims were activists of the Kurdish community, with links to the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which is considered a terrorist organization by Turkey.

Last Saturday, more than 10 thousands Kurds staged a protest rally in the center of Paris, demanding authorities take action in connection with the triple murder."

Posted by: вот так | Jan 19 2013 3:27 utc | 66

The Bar Association Denounces Turkish Government's Arrest of Erdogan Opposition Lawyers

"The Bar Association denounced the measures which the Turkish government have taken against a group of lawyers from the Contemporary Lawyers' Association (CHD) in Turkey.

The Turkish government arrested 85 figures, among them 15 lawyers from the CHD. It also issued arrest warrants against leader of the CHD, Selcuk Kozagacli , and member of the CHD leadership in Istanbul, lawyer Oya Aslan.

Kozagacli and Aslan lately visited Syria to inspect the damages that affected the Syrian people and find common denominators to raise lawsuits against the Turkish government which is involved in the events in Syria.

They left Damascus last Thursday to Turkey after holding a lengthy meeting with the opposition Coalition of the Peaceful Change Forces, in addition to a series of other meetings with Syrian forces and figures.

In a statement issued on Saturday, the Bar Association stressed that these measures "contradict all conventions and morals".

The Association called upon the Arab and international law organizations, particularly the Arab Lawyers Union, the International Union of Lawyers and the International Association of Lawyers, to take open and clear stances towards the Turkish government's measures against the lawyers of the CHD."

Posted by: вот так | Jan 19 2013 17:49 utc | 67

Turkey rewrites PKK history.

French prosecutor names prime suspect in PKK killings

The PKK is known for ruthless executions of its own members due to internal conflicts. For example, Cansız's fiancé, Mehmet Şener, was executed by the PKK in Syria in November 1991 to prevent the marriage of the couple because marriages between PKK members are not allowed.

No, Mehmet Şener was executed because he opposed Öcalan.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 21 2013 22:50 utc | 68

A set-up patsy or somebody involved in a minor role (informant, for example) or "the lone gunman" who did it all?

Man charged in Kurdish activists murder case

"The driver of a Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) leader shot dead in Paris with two other female activists has been charged with their murder, a French prosecutor announced Monday.

Omer Guney, 30, was one of two men detained last week by a specialist anti-terrorist unit in connection with the January 9 slayings. Despite having been previously described as a Kurd, French media have cast doubts on Guney’s origins, saying he is originally from a town in the Turkish region of Central Anatolia not known for its Kurdish population.

After an indictment hearing on Monday, he was charged with carrying out the murders as part of a terrorist group and conspiracy to commit murder as part of a terrorist group."

Posted by: вот так | Jan 22 2013 21:30 utc | 69

Forgot the story link:

Posted by: вот так | Jan 22 2013 21:31 utc | 70

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