Syria’s Obvious MANPAD Counterstrategy

October 18, 2012

Tony Karon, who writes sane analyses for Time, points to piece about Man Portable Air Defense Missiles (MANPADs) in the hand of the foreign supported Syrian insurgents. He remarks:

MANPADS proliferate in Syria. Bad news for Assad forces. May also be bad news for civil aviation in the Levant…

My response:

Bad news for Turkey. Obvious MANPAD counterstrategy is giving them to Kurds.

It is simply an eye for an eye strategy.

Turkey has a very large tourist industry. If the PKK, which fights for Kurdish independence from Turkey, gets its hands on MANPADs, either obtained from the insurgents in Syria or from the Syrian government, the Turkish tourist industry is dead.

After it becomes known that the PKK has SA-7s, probably after they take down some Turkish helicopter and post the video on Youtube, would anyone still fly to Antalya without having fear of being shot down?

A few SA-7s in reliable PKK hands would also likely do wonders in changing Erdogan's stand towards arming the Syrian insurgents. I bet that right now some Syrian intelligence officer is giving this idea some deeper thoughts.

Posted by b on October 18, 2012 at 15:22 UTC | Permalink

Comments

That would be a good idea, except it is hard to be sure the degree to which Erdogan is acting independently and how much he is acting on US/NATO orders. His actions have been so destructive to Turkish interests that one has to wonder about that.
OTOH, SA-7s in the hands of Palestinians in Gaza would almost certainly give NATO some pause. Dead Turks, or dead Russian tourists in Turkey do not interest TPTB. But the thought of a couple of dead or captured Israeli soldiers terrifies them.
I don’t know to what degree Syria can smuggle weapons into Gaza. But it would be difficult to trace if they did since it could easily be blamed on the FSA or on Libyan rebels let loose by NATO bombardment.

Posted by: Lysander | Oct 18 2012 15:57 utc | 1

@Lysander – some reports from Sinai said that the weapons in Gaza were actually from Libya. Syria has no longer good relations with Hamas, so connection with Gaza is likely broken.
As for u.S. influence. Well there is Incirlik, a military airport in Turkey, with some U.S. staff. If a plane goes down there, the U.S. will also have to think about the issue.

Posted by: b | Oct 18 2012 17:00 utc | 2

Given the people who are receiving the MANPADs, what would prevent jihadis everywhere from receiving them?
This seems to be really opening Pandora’s box…unless the people with the MANPADS are really UK or US special ops, which will present a whole host of other problems once they get caught.

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 18 2012 17:22 utc | 3

check out this 1993 article by Robert Fisk
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9v5bv2ARI1rsw6lto1_1280.jpg

Posted by: Nikon | Oct 18 2012 18:54 utc | 4

If Kurds get MANPADs, this is trouble for Turkey. This is also trouble for Iran and Iraq – who are allies of Syria. Maybe arming Kurds in not such a good idea after all.

Posted by: Andrey Subbotin | Oct 18 2012 19:52 utc | 5

@5 true but the fsa is already an enemy of Iraq and Iran so they have nothing more to loose by arming the pkk.

Posted by: Lysander | Oct 18 2012 20:37 utc | 6

Adventures of Afghan jihadi support in the 80’s lead to Osama and AQ. Now the new adventures in Libya and Syria, is there a new Osama …..
“Sakr’s latest feat, as revealed by well-placed sources within the armed Syrian opposition, involves a wealthy Emirati who recently went to Syria to take part in the uprising against the government with the Jihadi Nusra Front.
The Emirati man is reportedly a dignitary, and his government was anxious to get him back and keep the incident under wraps.”
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/okab-sakr-lebanese-parliamentarian-representing-syria%E2%80%99s-war

Posted by: Rd. | Oct 18 2012 20:39 utc | 7

Once MANPADS arrive in the black market and bazars who knows where they will end up. After Libya fell 20,000 went missing, of which the US says 5,000 have been accounted for. Could have easily travelled over the smuggling routes in Egypt’s Sinai. Or picked up by Jihadists/Illegal Arms Dealers/Criminals/Corrupt Security forces, who knows where they will wind up.
I’d guess there will certainly be blowback on this. These things are shoulder mounted, heat-seeking missiles. In 1998 an SA-7 blew up a Boeing 727 in the Congo 3 minutes after take-off. Now there is 15,000 of them unaccounted for.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Oct 18 2012 21:45 utc | 8

One thing that has always puzzled me is how such a sensible writer like Tony Karon could survive in such an environment like Time. He is the antithesis of the prowar, proimperial bent that characterizes Time.

Posted by: ToivoS | Oct 19 2012 1:39 utc | 9

PKK already have Stinger and SA-7 MANPADs
http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/M-files/armed-groups-guided-missiles.pdf

Posted by: Calig | Oct 19 2012 2:24 utc | 10

@Calig: Yes PKK does have them, the problem with the PKK, like the FSA, is that they have been pawns of different powers, and have been used as tools of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Soviet Union, in different times. Their second problem is lack of widespread public support inside Turkey. If the Kurdish population of Turkey is as numerous as some assert [15-20%] then the PKK and its political front, currently DTP, are utter failures at garnering the support of Kurdish masses. However, in the current environment, if a country wants to have a proxy to throw into the mix, stupidly exarcabated by Erdogan and Davutoglu et. al., PKK is a good candidate for them to support.

Posted by: kodlu | Oct 19 2012 2:57 utc | 11

Ambassador Chris Stevens returned to Tripoli in early September from a trip to Europe. It was a critical time for the new Libya with its western-supplied new leaders. A new president and prime minister, men without any political experience, had been elected by the new Libya parliament. Stevens was needed to help the budding government.
But Stevens had other priorities. Eastern Libya, a hotbed of jihadist revolutionaries, people whom Stevens had organized a year ago in Benghazi to overthrow the Libya government, were needed in Syria along with weapons. (His decision to go to Benghazi and play spook again would kill him.)
The Eastern Libyan city of Benghazi has become the North African supply hub for weapons and foreign fighters arriving for regime change operations in Syria. Liwaa Al-Umma -“Community brigade” – from Libya. the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), an affiliate of Al Qaeda, is now in Syria fighting for the US against Iran ally Syria.
The dozen or more CIA agents in Benghazi were supposedly there to round up dangerous weapons in the war-torn nation, and destroy them. Apparently they failed on the destruction part.
Stevens’ last official function on 9/11, according to news reports, was a meeting with the Turkish ambassador. In Benghazi. Not at the “consulate” — there was no consulate in Benghazi. It was purely a CIA operation. During this time – –
The Times, Sep 14, 2012
Syrian rebels squabble over weapons as biggest shipload arrives from Libya

A Libyan ship carrying the largest consignment of weapons for Syria since the uprising began has docked in Turkey and most of its cargo is making its way to rebels on the front lines, The Times has learnt.
Among more than 400 tonnes of cargo the vessel was carrying were SAM-7 surface-to-air anti-aircraft missiles and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), which Syrian sources said could be a game-changer for the rebels.

I imagine that besides SA-7’s there were also Russian Igla-S (SA-24) shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles that had been sold to Libya and stolen from military warehouses during the rebellion there last year. The SA-24’s have shown up in Gaza. The SA-24 “Grinch” is very dangerous. It has a range of some three miles, a powerful warhead, and a guidance system that lets it find targets at night. It is similar to the U.S. Stinger that so distressed the Soviets in Afghanistan. Introduced in 1983, it can hit a plane at 11,000 feet. It can also down drones and cruise missiles, and helicopters are toast.
“A game-changer” for the Syria rebels, and so Stevens had to be there in Benghazi.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 3:11 utc | 12

@ ToivoS,
Q: One thing that has always puzzled me is how such a sensible writer like Tony Karon could survive in such an environment like Time. He is the antithesis of the prowar, proimperial bent that characterizes Time.
R: What if you look at it from a NYT’s strategic angle?

Posted by: DanielRich | Oct 19 2012 7:36 utc | 13

The Libyan Igla-S systems can’t be fired as stand-alone Manpads – they were part of a truck-mounted system without individual triggering mechanisms.
http://www.think-dash.com/2011/03/libyan-sa-24-cant-be-used-as-manpads.html
That said, the majority of the Libyan SA-7’s shouldn’t of been usable without a semi-professional refurbishing. These had been sitting in warehouses for something like two decades, which is much longer than their battery life.
This is likely one of the reasons why we are just seeing them in action in numbers now – they has to refurbished.
And while their is plenty of small companies that can fix them up, the most likely is personnel & equipment from an eastern-european workshop secured by Qatar.
We already know some smaller Ukrainian companies are doing business, & the Bulgarians were involved with the FSA, so they are the two most likely…
—
To fit the Igla-S systems with individual triggering mechanisms is a much bigger job, & likely only one of the more sophisticated Ukrainian, Belorussian or Polish companies outside of Russia are capable of it (or most likely Israel).
You’d need access to original parts & schematics or something very close to it, plus a lot of experience working with sophisticated Russian equipment. It would also likely be easily traceable back to the company which did the work – don’t see it happening no matter how much the Qatari’s are offering, as it’s just too much risk. Even the more gung-ho of the NATO crowd would freak.

Posted by: KenM | Oct 19 2012 10:08 utc | 14

back in late-July here’s what they were claiming:
U..S. Official: No Evidence Of ‘MANPADS Leakage’ In Syria

Posted by: adam | Oct 19 2012 13:13 utc | 15

@ Don#12

there was no consulate in Benghazi. It was purely a CIA operation. During this time

– BINGO one can easily verify this by googling with a cutoff date of before Sept. 11, 2012. ZERO hits
Also re “The dozen or more CIA agents in Benghazi”
I get the sense considerably more. eg

“– In its reporting on the large number of CIA personnel in Benghazi, the New York Times agreed to withhold locations and details of Agency operations at the request of Obama administration officials, who said that disclosing such information could jeopardize future sensitive government activities and put at risk American personnel working in dangerous settings”

and NYTimes

“Though the agency has been cooperating with the new post-Qaddafi Libyan intelligence service, the size of the C.I.A.’s presence in Benghazi apparently surprised some Libyan leaders. The deputy prime minister, Mustafa Abushagour, was quoted in The Wall Street Journal last week saying that he learned about some of the delicate American operations in Benghazi only after the attack on the mission, in large part because a surprisingly large number of Americans showed up at the Benghazi airport to be evacuated.”

Posted by: erichwwk | Oct 19 2012 14:22 utc | 16

Isn’t it odd that not even one western reporter has gotten on the real story here — the Benghazi-Turkey arms & people connection — that motivated Ambassador Stevens to be in Benghazi for anti-Syria affairs, rather than in Tripoli where he was needed for necessary diplomatic functions.
Obama’s fake cover story that Stevens was in Benghazi “to review plans to establish a new cultural center and modernize a hospital,” as if Benghazi is a bed or roses and not a hotbed of militant extremism, is a larger whopper than the “video” lie, really.
Regarding the presidential race, I imagine that Romney has received a five-star intelligence briefing covering all this, so that his criticism of Obama’s Syria policy as not being macho enough will be less than full-throated.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 14:29 utc | 17

A car bomb has exploded in Beirut this afternoon. Another sign that Syria’s crisis is spilling out into the region. The explosion happened in Ashrafieh neighbourhood in Beirut, which is a heavily Christian shopping district. While to early to tell exactly who did it suspicion would fall on sectarian elements of the FSA who have targetted Christians in Syria. However it was just down the road from March 14’s headquarters so Assad can’t be ruled out. First car bombing in Beirut since 2008.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Oct 19 2012 14:40 utc | 18

@ erichwwk #16
Yes, and the line between agents and diplomats is getting even fuzzier, making it difficult to count spook noses. A prime example is Chris Stevens, supposedly a State employee, who a year ago was in Benghazi orqanizing militant opposition to Gaddaffi, and then here he was in Benghazi again organizing his friendly (or not so friendly, really) militants against Assad. Was Stevens really CIA and not State?
Memories of Raymond Davis, the spook-for-hire who shot two Pakistani intelligence agents, and then was protected under the claim that he was a diplomat.
The US foreign policy with this conflation of militant terrorism and diplomacy now more than ever will bring bad tidings. The US calls the current actions against Iran and Syria “diplomacy” and thankfully some (e.g.Russia & China) don’t buy it, as the western press does.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 14:43 utc | 19

Bacon–do you have a good source for Stevens as a spook? I’ve been arguing this for some time, but a former US ambassador keeps arguing how pure and innocent US ambassadors are. I responded with Negroponte, a “diplomat” who was so steeped in spookery that he eventually got tasked with supervising them all.

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 19 2012 14:54 utc | 20

On the MANPADS Youtube footage dated Oct 17th which appears to show a Syrian Mi-8 attack helicopter being shot down. Obviously coming from the FSA this footage can’t be confirmed (could have been made during the Libya war since Gaddaffi also had Mi-8 helicopters). But would match up with the news of MANPADS flooding Syria.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Oct 19 2012 14:58 utc | 21

@ 16, 19, 20
By design we can’t verify who the spooks are, but Leon Panetta is my favorite candidate.
Decades after leaving the Republican Party for being too liberal, and with scant intelligence or defense experience, he was nominated and confirmed first as CIA chief and then as SecDef with nary a protest from the ‘Party of No’.
Other suspects are Louis Freeh and Bush I. Maybe I sound like a hater, but they too received some very sensitive appointments for which their résumés don’t provide obvious support.

Posted by: Watson | Oct 19 2012 15:12 utc | 22

@ JohnH #20 — do you have a good source for Stevens as a spook?
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck —

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 15:14 utc | 23

Hillary Clinton, the War Goddess, has made many statements and has initiated policies that reflect her admiration of the Pentagon activists. CIA agents have always used embassies as covers for their activities, and as the Pentagon has stumbled so badly with its wars, Clinton has moved to fill the vacuum with her militant diplomacy. She came, she saw, she killed, with obvious enjoyment. And as with the Pentagon, a martyr justifies the cause and purifies the resolve.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 15:26 utc | 24

Don Bacon @ 12 — This is a nearing bombshell impact in terms of details. Do you have sources for your write up? Thanks much.
(Yes, I did read about your Google test for there being a “consulate” in Benghazi.)

Posted by: jawbone | Oct 19 2012 15:47 utc | 25

@jawbone #25 — sources
There are many – all the bits and pieces of my comments on Stevens have been in the news, but our court stenographers have not seen fit to state the obvious. I’ve been blogging against the “Benghazi Consulate” fairy tale everywhere I could for a couple weeks now at least. It’s like if you say “CIA” really loudly you will be struck by lightning or something.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 16:25 utc | 26

More on Stevens the spook and the Benghazi base for supplying the FSA.
Ambassador Chris Stevens was “the official U.S. liaison to the al-Qaeda-linked Libyan opposition, working directly with Abdelhakim Belhadj of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group—a group that has now disbanded, with some fighters reportedly participating in the attack that took Stevens’ life.” As I said earlier, basically it was an inside job.
“In November 2011 The Telegraph reported that Belhadj, acting as head of the Tripoli Military Council, “met with Free Syrian Army [FSA] leaders in Istanbul and on the border with Turkey” in an effort by the new Libyan government to provide money and weapons to the growing insurgency in Syria.
Last month The Times of London reported that a Libyan ship “carrying the largest consignment of weapons for Syria … has docked in Turkey.” The shipment reportedly weighed 400 tons and included SA-7 surface-to-air anti-craft missiles and rocket-propelled grenades.”
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-syria-heavy-weapons-jihadists-2012-10#ixzz29lNiXslR

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 19 2012 16:31 utc | 27

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 19 2012 16:32 utc | 28

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 19 2012 16:33 utc | 29

Sorry about the duplications. The post hung during transmission.

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 19 2012 16:36 utc | 30

The battle for Maaret Al-Numan, a key Damascus-Aleppo connector
Saudi Gazette, October 13, 2012

MAARET Al-NUMAN, Syria — Blown-up buildings, deserted streets and corpses of regime soldiers bear testimony to a fierce 48-hour battle before the town of Maaret Al-Numan fell to Syrian rebels.
The rebels said that almost 300 people were killed in the three days of fighting in Maaret Al-Numan, including 55 civilians, 46 rebel fighters and 190 Syrian army soldiers.

That was last week. This week, Professor Juan Cole, court stenographer, reports an “air massacre.”
“Air Massacre in Maaret al-Numan, Syria as Fighting Intensifies”
Informed Comment, Oct 19

Al-Assad’s response on Thursday was to bomb Maaret al-Numan and other towns in the area from the air. The bombs striking that and nearby towns hit residential units and, in Aleppo itself, a mosque, where families had gathered for safety, according to opposition sources. The death toll from the bombings of the past two days is at least 44, according to the estimates of the rebels. Videos from Maaret al-Numan showed children killed.

Imagine that, airplanes with bombs. I don’t recall such sympathy for Iraqis and Afghans from the professor, complete with US “air massacres” and “children killed.” Probably something about dead soldiers, though.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 16:48 utc | 31

There are many reports of turkish helicopters crashing, so mabeyPKK already have them
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Report+killed+injured+Turkish+military+helicopter+crash/7373689/story.html

Posted by: nikon | Oct 19 2012 16:52 utc | 32

@JohnH
Excellent source on Stevens. BIG NEWS. You are forgiven your stuttering, stuttering, stuttering.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 16:53 utc | 33

We have to go to radicalislam.org to get the truth.
Arms Flow to Syria May Be Behind Benghazi Cover-Up
Of course it is. Stevens was killed, Obama was told what he was doing in Benghazi, so Rice was instructed to pitch the video cover-up story on five Sunday talk shows. That failed, and then DNI Clapper was told by Obama to take the rap, which as a good soldier he did.
This is COMPLETELY in character for Obama. Meanwhile Syria escalates and spreads.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 17:20 utc | 34

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 17:23 utc | 35

so that’s how you do it

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 17:23 utc | 36

The jihadists are apparently taking over the FSA.
Long War Journal
Al Nusrah Front commanded Free Syrian Army unit, ‘Chechen emigrants,’ in assault on Syrian air defense base
By Bill Roggio, October 19, 2012

The Al Nusrah Front for the People of the Levant, an al Qaeda-linked jihadist group that is fighting Bashir al Assad’s regime in Syria, commanded a Free Syrian Army unit and “Chechen emigrants” during last week’s assault on a Syrian air defense and Scud missile base in Aleppo. The base was overrun by Al Nusrah and its allies.

More arms for the freedom fighters! heh

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 19 2012 17:29 utc | 37

More on the Beirut bombing during rush hour today. Lots more sites by googling.
As always, “Who benefits?”.

Posted by: jawbone | Oct 19 2012 17:44 utc | 38

Oops, left out that the blast killed a high Lebanese intel official who led the investigation into the bombing which killed Hariri in 2005 and found Syria responsible. Which did not seem likely if the “Who benefits” question is asked seriously. But, who knows?

Updated at 1:13 p.m. ET: BEIRUT, Lebanon — A huge car bomb explosion in Beirut on Friday killed a top Lebanese security official whose investigations implicated Syria and Hezbollah in the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik al-Hariri seven years ago.

Hhmmm, who would like to see Syria and Hizbollah blamed for this? Who would like to see Lebanon sink into war again? Just which state actors might benefit from this?

Posted by: jawbone | Oct 19 2012 17:50 utc | 39

Don Bacon @ 26 — I’ve been deeply involved in trying to protect my friend with the stroke. His insurance company cut him off for rehab therapy at the really good place, saying he had “met all his goals,” so it was time for a sub-acute facility (also cheaper). Yet, what he needs most is cognitive therapy and that is not available at the sub-acute, cheaper facility. I’ve been fighting on so many fronts, with so little real knowledge of what I can and can’t expect, that I’m exhausted.
It means I am waaaay behind in reading up on important issues. Especially those which are not covered or are lied about on the regular media.
I must say that seeing how the health care/profit “system” works for a more complicated, less clear cut ending health issue is, well, terrifying. Utterly terrified.
I fear my friend has enough assets to be very exciting for for-profit facilities which need full-boat paying “warehoused” “patients.”
I found the word “placement” used in an otherwise benign seeming email sent internally by the facility about my friend. That implies they see no improvement possible for him. Yet, he’s never been evaluated by a real neuro physiatrist!!! “Placement” means he would be put permanently into a “supervised” situation….Kept alive until his funds run out and he goes on Medicaid.
I got a physiatrist involved for a consult, and he said my friend needs the kind of cognitive help rehab at Kessler Institute* can offer. He has an evaluation next week.
Strokes very often are hell on earth.
*Where Christopher Reeve was treated.

Posted by: jawbone | Oct 19 2012 18:07 utc | 40

davutoglu has an interview in the Guardian today. Among other statements he said:
“The international community must make a decision. Humanitarian access must be guaranteed by any means that is acceptable. These people [Syrians] are human beings. The winter is approaching. How will they survive the winter?”
He is sounding desperate: things are spinning out of control and the US and Europe must send in troops to save Turkey from itself. I think that the current Turkish government is in trouble — ironic if regime change came to Turkey before Syria.

Posted by: ToivoS | Oct 19 2012 21:00 utc | 41

Good thinking Davutoglu. A little NATO bombing is just what the Syrian people need to get them through the winter.

Posted by: dh | Oct 19 2012 22:19 utc | 42

@ JohnH #20
May previous response doesn’t/didn’t show up [if this a duplicate entry I apologize]
Watch [without sound] this clip of Colin Powell @ the UN and study Negroponte’s facial expressions and body language. It says it all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5RZ6ukbNc [1 0f 15]

Posted by: Daniel Rich | Oct 19 2012 22:28 utc | 43

@ jawbone,
Here are some photographic imprints of Hariri’s [2005] killing/murder/execution. @ http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000334.htm.
I don’t profess to be clairvoyant, but I’ve learned to listen to my gut feelings as to whether I’m being lied to or not. Needless to say, the poor alarm bell’s hammer is all bent out of shape after sifting through mounts of evidence, misdirections, half truths and full blown lies time and time again.

Posted by: Daniel Rich | Oct 19 2012 22:39 utc | 44

Davutoglu is indeed getting desperate. The Turkish economic miracle is about to collapse, and the Erdogan government will have to take the fall.
Turkey is currently running MASSIVE current account deficits and a big devaluation is only a matter of time. If the IMF does its usual number, that will include brutal austerity and a sell off the state’s crown jewels to Wall Street for pennies on the dollar.
“Fitch Ratings downgraded its outlook on the country to stable from positive in November and Standard & Poor’s followed in May. Both said they were concerned that the size of the deficit left the economy vulnerable to sudden withdrawals of foreign investment, which could reduce lending and business activity.
As part of a strategy to rebalance the economy so that it would rely less on domestic spending, Turkey has prioritized exports. The government cut its 2012 growth target to 3.2% on Tuesday from 4% earlier in the year.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444799904578050080490329340.html
But exports to Iran and Syria are off.
Erdogan and Davutoglu must be praying that no terrorist attacks, blow back from their Syrian meddling, cripple their thriving tourist industry and push their foreign account balance over the edge.

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 19 2012 22:43 utc | 45

Don Bacon, here is Cole on the Fallujah war crime. Not sure if it is typical or exemplary or absolute evidence
of your implication but it’s certainly worth examining.
http://www.juancole.com/2005/11/white-phosphorus-round-up-george.html

Posted by: Ken Hoop | Oct 19 2012 22:51 utc | 46

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/10/19/the-benghazi-scandal-boils-over/

Posted by: erichwwk | Oct 20 2012 0:21 utc | 47

@Ken Hoop #46
The Whiskey Papa was only one part of the Fallujah war crime.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 20 2012 0:24 utc | 48

“The Whiskey Papa was only one part of the Fallujah war crime.”
Indeed. Check out recent news on impact of depleted uranium in Fallujah.

Posted by: erichwwk | Oct 20 2012 0:37 utc | 49

Looks like someone is going after the coordinators behind the Syrian opposition: first Chris Stevens, now Wissam Hasan.
http://angryarab.net/2012/10/19/flash-wisam-hasan-targeted-in-beirut-explosion/

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 20 2012 0:55 utc | 50

Another howdy-doo from those Persian cats. Time to cue the PKK again, methinks. Balance.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 20 2012 1:28 utc | 51

Must-see —
A video from Fox News –
Mysterious Libyan ship linked to deadly terror attack?
notes:
-9/11 Stevens dinner with Turkish diplomat
-El Entisar – 400 tons of cargo incl SA-7 and RPG
-disagreement between FSA and MB
-Benghazi to Turkey
-the Arab Spring went wrong – turned into a radical Islamist winter
-Stevens was in Benghazi to negotiate a weapons transfer

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 20 2012 3:17 utc | 52

” -the Arab Spring went wrong – turned into a radical Islamist winter”
see? That’s the bit that one might call a “limited hangout”
There are fundamental differences between events in Libya and Syria when compared to ALL other so-called “Arab Spring” events.
All other AS events were, as far as I can see, merely changing of the guard. There was no real upheaval in terms of the power-structure of those societies – essentially just the figure-head of a corrupt oligarchy was replaced (even in Egypt – the Military is still an integral part of the power-structure there, despite the outward trappings of ‘democracy’).
Libya and Syria on the other hand were/are clearly hostile take-overs, and were clearly always intended to be so, from the very start. In Libya the power-structure has been completely obliterated (along with any semblance of ‘civil’ gov’t). Such complete destruction was obviously also the original intention regarding Syria.
So anyone linking events in Libya and Syria with the rather dubiously titled “Arab Spring” is probably either intentionally trying to deceive (Fox News for instance, or just doesn’t know what they are talking about

Posted by: SF | Oct 20 2012 3:46 utc | 53

For some reason, Muslim protests against the anti-Mohammed video were widely covered in the West. But an anti-war protest in the heart of Istanbul somehow escaped their attention!!!?! NY Times coverage was limited to a blog entry. “All the news that fits the official narrative.”
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/protesters-march-against-war-in-istanbul-as-tension-with-syria-escalates/

Posted by: JohnH | Oct 20 2012 4:13 utc | 54

@JohnH 45
Turkey’s export oriented strategy has already failed as well. A major part of the Turkish economy, which played a key role in growing the general economy and in exports was the production of cheap electronics and consumer goods that it exported to Europe. With the recession in Europe, that market has virtually dried up. In fact over the last year or so a substantial slice of Turkey’s exports have been gold purchases by Iran. Once Iran decides it has enough gold reserves Turkey is going to be in very deep trouble.

Posted by: Nemo | Oct 20 2012 8:44 utc | 55

Sounds like they are getting inch by inch closer to the truth in the US, Don Bacon no 52 …
My guess is that the CIA station in Benghazi was organizing the transfer of weapons including manpads from Benghazi to Syria via Turkey and trying to keep track / control.
Something like the wizard’s apprentice brewing a stew they could not stop …

Posted by: somebody | Oct 20 2012 9:34 utc | 56

in other news there is a NATO video of the attack on Gaddafi’s convoy out in Italian La Stampa
http://www.lastampa.it/2012/10/19/multimedia/esteri/la-caccia-al-convoglio-di-gheddafi-zRUnBDmMymvCGfkvS1DXQK/pagina.html
which a) presumably proves a NATO warcrime as they were firing on fleeing people (but, as order was given, not at the mosque)
b) makes you wonder which of NATO’s secret services decided to leak the video for the anniversary.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 20 2012 10:04 utc | 57

The latest hit in Lebanon of the top intel chief bares the same profile of the Harriri hit. Both targets were overtly/covertly anti-Damascus stooges of the West/Arab monarchs. And both deaths are being used to demonize Syria, Iran and Hezbollah.
The funny thing is that, all the anti-Damascus Lebanese politicians seem to forget they’re as much assets, as well as targets for their Western “allies” to further their interest in the region. The cia/mossad/mi6/bnd/dsg etc, don’t mind killing one of their Lebanese pawns every now and then if they think it serves their interest. At the end of the day, they’re expendables that can/will easily be replaced by another willing stooge.
Another angle could be the work of Syria/Iran/etc intelligence networks sending a message to the backers of the fsa that they’re not immune and can be reached if/when the time is right.
Apparently the dead guy was a key coordinator between the many intel agencies working in Lebanon and the Syrian fsa..It’ll take a while before a suitable tool is found to replace him but it’ll be too late for the fsa and their backers.
At this moment, it’s safe to say opponents of Assad are shitting their pants in Beirut as we speak..
No place is safe!!!

Posted by: Zico | Oct 20 2012 10:39 utc | 58

via Penny:
AVAAZ is back in town!
Or at least in the news. Yes the scummy merc transporting, gun providing, weapons, journalist smuggling “humanitarian outfit” AVAAZ is back in the news.
Of course none of the claims they are making can be verified, validated or proven true. What else could be expected?
Let’s look at some of the unsubstantiated claims AVAAZ scum are making.. The National Post is careful to try to maintain credibility. As if??!!

At least 28,000 Syrians have gone missing since they were abducted by forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad during the 19-month-old revolt, [criminal George Soros financed] activist group Avaaz said Thursday.
“One Syrian-based human rights organization reported up to 80,000 people had disappeared, added Avaaz, a campaign network that aids opposition activists (supports terrorists) in Syria alongside other causes worldwide”
The figures could not be verified independently.
“Avaaz said it would hand over the reports of the abductions to the United Nations Human Rights Council, saying they amounted to “enforced disappearances.”

They “would” but will they? And if they do, can any of it be verified independently?

Posted by: SF | Oct 20 2012 16:34 utc | 59

@Don Bacon – there were 25 CIA folks in Benghazi. This according to the files Rep Issa released on Friday.
That’s a LOT of folks.

Posted by: b | Oct 20 2012 18:05 utc | 60

http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/this-is-what-benghazi-consulate-really-was/

Posted by: erichwwk | Oct 20 2012 20:38 utc | 61

http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/this-is-what-benghazi-consulate-really-was/

Posted by: erichwwk | Oct 20 2012 20:38 utc | 62

b: Yes, 25 is a lot, and except for a couple State security people that’s virtually ALL there were in Benghazi. (Not a consulate by any stretch.) These spooks sure didn’t provide any direct warning of the attack, so intelligence wasn’t their game, supporting anti-Syria effort was why they were there in such numbers.
recall this Sep 25 news report—

The September 11 attack that claimed the life of the US ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, and three other Americans disrupted a major CIA operation in the North African country.
According to the New York Times, at least half of the nearly two dozen US personnel evacuated from the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi following the fatal attack on the US consulate and a secret “annex” were “CIA operatives and contractors.”
“It’s a catastrophic intelligence loss,” a US official who had been stationed in Libya told the Times. “We got our eyes poked out.”

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 20 2012 21:00 utc | 63

from Ms Lamb’s congressional testimony regarding the Benghazi compound:

“The main building was divided into two sections. A public section included common areas and meeting space. The second section was a residential area that included the safe haven. A second building –Building B – housed Diplomatic Security agents. The Tactical Operations Center (or TOC) occupied a third building. It contained communications equipment, and a warning system.”

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 20 2012 21:20 utc | 64

Don,
I’m still trying to figure out the Benghazi thing. If Stevens was facilitating weapons transfers to Salafi terrorists attacking Syria, why would Salafi terrorists want to kill him? What would be the reason for an inside job false flag attack? (I just don’t buy the Webster Tarpley CIA Mormon Mafia scenario.)
Which leaves me thinking this really might have been an attack by the Green Resistance, posing as the Jihadis Stevens was working with.
Just a guess. Any insights would be appreciated.

Posted by: Lysander | Oct 21 2012 2:47 utc | 65

@Lysander
There is no indication that anyone wanted to kill Stevens. He supposedly died of smoke inhalation from diesel fires while visiting a CIA center.
So we have people attacking a CIA operation. Why would they do that? some news stories:
–U.S. Used This Torture Box to Interrogate Gadhafi’s Enemies — This is a drawing of a locked box which a Libyan man says U.S. interrogators once stuffed him into. It’s said to be about three feet long on each side. Only once during his two years in detention was the detainee put in the box; his confinement there lasted over an hour. The circles are small holes, into which his interrogators “prodded him with long thin objects.”
–CIA torture techniques in Libya included prolonged diapering and insects — Wired News did a report detailing some of the alleged Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) torture techniques used in Libya (see article: U.S. Used This Torture Box to Interrogate Gadhafi’s Enemies
And let’s look at a prime suspect.
Abu Sufian Ibrahim Ahmed Hamouda bin Qumu, as a member of militia Ansar al Sharia, has been identified as a potential figure behind the attack, which killed four Americans, including US Ambassador to Libya J. Christopher Stevens.
“Fox News quotes sources claiming that former Gitmo detainee Sufian Ibrahim Ahmed Hamouda Bin Qumu was involved in–and may have planned–the attack on American’s Consulate in Benghazi.”
So what’s the problem with nailing bin Qumu for Benghazi?
For more than five years, Abu Sufian Ibrahim Ahmed Hamuda bin Qumu was a prisoner at the Guantánamo Bay prison, judged “a probable member of Al Qaeda” by the analysts there. They concluded in a newly disclosed 2005 assessment that his release would represent a “medium to high risk, as he is likely to pose a threat to the U.S., its interests and allies.”
(We know what conditions were like at Guantánamo Bay. Think about being there for five long years.)
Hamouda bin Qumu was returned to Libya in 2007, where Chris Stevens helped him get settled in. Stevens was DCM (Deputy Chief of Mission) from 2007 to 2009. There are two wikileaks wires mentioning Stevens’ help for bin Qumu.
wikileaks: O 131650Z DEC 07
FM AMEMBASSY TRIPOLI
SUBJECT: LIBYA: FOLLOW-UP ON ACCESS TO RETURNED GTMO DETAINEES

“. . .acknowledged to DCM and P/E Chief the GOL’s commitment to provide Embassy access to returned Guantanamo Bay detainees.. . . Dr. Sawani characterized access to the returned detainees as “a straightforward matter” and said he was “sure” visits with al-Rimi and Hamouda could be quickly arranged. .” .”

wikileaks: O 030917Z JAN 08
FM AMEMBASSY TRIPOLI
SUBJECT: LIBYA: FAMILY VISIT FOR RETURNED GTMO DETAINEE CONFIRMED

“…Ben Qumu Abu Sufian Ibrahim Ahmed Hamouda. . .claimed to have not had a family visit. . . A/DCM spoke with . . .counterpart Muhammad Tarnish January 2 . .[Hamouda’s] physical condition and spirits as “very good”

In March 2011 Christopher Stevens attended a meeting in Paris between Clinton, Sarkozy and Jabril, set up by Bernard-Henri Lévy. Stevens was among those who urged Clinton to describe to President Obama the call for help that he had just heard. From March 2011 to November 2011 Stevens was Special Representative to the National Transitional Council in Benghazi.
During this time, Abu Sufian Ibrahim Ahmed Hamuda bin Qumu was a notable figure in the Libyan rebels’ fight to oust Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. bin Qumu was a leader of a ragtag band of fighters known as the Darnah Brigade — a remarkable turnabout resulting from shifting American policies.
Abu Sufian Ibrahim Ahmed Hamouda bin Qumu, as a member of militia Ansar al Sharia, has been identified as a potential figure behind the attack, which killed four Americans, including US Ambassador to Libya J. Christopher Stevens.
So what happened? We don’t know. But we can surmise that when it comes to torture some people understandably find it difficult to forgive and forget. And the possible involvement of bin Qumu is not without irony.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 21 2012 4:15 utc | 66

got a

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 21 2012 4:41 utc | 67

got a wikileaks paywall there

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 21 2012 4:41 utc | 68

Maren Cronsnest 21 October 08:38
MOUSSA IBRAHIM SAFE AND FREE, KHAMIS ALIVE
(Photo: Libyan children playing “Muammar”, celebrating the closing of the US Base “Wheelus” on June 11, 1970, captured from the German Film (DEFA) “Bye Bye Wheelus” from 1971, Heynowski/Scheuman, GDR)
He said, he is safe and not near Bani Walid
He said that Rebels are lieing about him and Khamis Algathaffi
He is not captured and Khamis is not killed.
Rebels are liars, criminals and they are des
troying the people of Bani Walid.
Gadhaffi was the unity, savior, strength and charisma of Libya..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FLRCmWcDdBw#t=344sEnglish Translation – Moussa Ibrahim audio message 20.10.2012
In the Name of God, the Great, and in the name of Fatah the great. Salute to all of you, freedom fighters of Libya. I am Dr. Moussa Ibrahim and I am talking to you today…after watching the country under the criminals of NATO…I am here to tell them that we still have power, we still strong with God’s help, and we trust our selfs tha
t our duty is to bring safety to our country after all these killings, stealing that brought in our country the rats of NATO.But today, after all these false news that are spreading via BBC, Al Arabyia, i have to tell you that all these is just to take the world’s eye off what is really happening, and what are doing the NATO fighter to our families in Bani Walid. Its obvious from photos and videos that people of Bani Walid, women, kids, men have been killed by aircraft attacks in their homes and by all these criminals from misrata that are carrying guns. and this is all happening cause they are threatening the people of Jamahyryia to not stand by people of Bani Walid and they “thought” to talk about Moussa Ibrahim and Khamis Al Qaddafi. We are outside Libya, we have nothing to do with Bani Walid, we are not even to a place near Bani Walid. they are hiting Bani Walid, they know that Bani Walid is a big tribe, Bani walid has geographical very important place and it’s tribe has a strong meaning for the country, so they are afraid for what is going to happen between the tribes of libya. After all that what is happening now to Bani Walid has nothing to do with the regime this is clash between tribes, and after what happened to our leader Qaddafi and Seif Al islam , the channels of bbc, al arabyia, al Djajeera are spreading false news about Khamis Al Qaddafi and Moussa Ibrahim and other people, and this is the proof about these lies. But our families that still in Bani Walid and with God’s help we will be back to them …But shame on you. Shame on you Libyans this is not about Moammar Al Qaddafi or not, shame on you a hall tribe , a hall libyan city to be attacked and cut in pieces , and killin its children, women and men and you are just watching. You have to think that this is not about policy, you have to think this is about the dignity of Libyans.these people which attacks this city have no dignity, no bellieves, they have no brothers, they have no feeling of their nationality. They lied about us , they told that we killed, they are the ones who killed people, they told we killed childre, infact they killed children , they told we were stealing they are the ones who still stealing, and they brought the country under a demon western leadreship.Moammar Qaddafi was the man who cares about Libya, he was for the best of Libya , yes there were problems but these problems were resolving by conversation but all these traitors sold everything. Please Libyans, has nonthing to do with all this mass, stand by the city, help the city , cause history will remain, history will write that bani walid cut in pieces, its people massacred and the western tribes were just watching. I have to tell many thanks the thousands of people who contacton FB , via Paltalk, twitter and by telephone. But my life does not worth more than other men from the regime who martyred and today on 20 October 2011, or the people who remains in jails. I still have Moammar al qaddafi as my leader,Libya still my country and NATO is my enemy. Thank you very much and i hope that we will meet soon on our land that have benn betrayed. Thank you and let the God guide you!
Thanks to STOP THE WAR IN LIBYA. WE DEMAND IT

Posted by: brian | Oct 21 2012 8:44 utc | 69

AVAAZ like Amnesty or McDonalds are BRANDS run by shadowy persons of little real human rights character. Brands are powerful influences on peoples perceptions as demonstrated by Naomi Klein in her book No Logo , and others

Posted by: brian | Oct 21 2012 8:47 utc | 70

66 Don Bacon, you can assume that after having been tortured people are not normal in any psychological sense of the word. Abu Sufian Ibrahim Ahmed Hamouda bin Qumu is close to 60 years old and suffering from tuberculosis he refuses treatment for if you believe wikileaks. He might just be the well known fall guy easy to name for the Libyan government when some of its members might have been involved (and easy to name as ex-Guatanamo prisoner for Fox News)
The Libyan consulate/CIA station attack was a combination of the militia tasked with the defense standing down and the attack itself. And it was 9/11.
Plus there was this PR face saving demonstration a week later when the people of Benghazi demonstrated to get their city free of militias (Libya militia leader: Heat-seeking missiles, other weapons stolen during firefight) problem was apart from the demonstration so called pro government militias attacked so called pro government militias and one of them claimed that their base was looted and that manpads got lost.
I guess all this is related. And the root causes in Benghazi might have been more business/mafia like than political. You would have to know who (or what) finances which militia. It is an election issue now in the US, obviously. And somehow the people who financed the Benghazi attack might have intended it to be just that.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 21 2012 10:40 utc | 71

truth is, other than the bare facts (there was some sort of an attack on a US building in benghazi – stevens was evacuated to another location which itself was attacked shortly after. Stevens ends up dead)
You know absolutely nothing about what happened in Benghazi other than that – and you can’t even be 100% sure of those few details.
EVERYTHING else you have claimed to “know” has in fact been fed to you by, in the main, US (or US-friendly) sources. In fact all the sources for the few bits of information we have are all in someway unreliable – all have been known to lie in the past
Personally I find it rather curious that no one (and I really mean no one) has even mentioned that it was the 11th anniversary of the Twin Towers attack

Posted by: FtJ | Oct 21 2012 23:54 utc | 72

PS: And when I say “US Friendly sources” I’m including Wiki-rape-ia in that

Posted by: FtJ | Oct 22 2012 0:06 utc | 73

@FtJ – are you referring to the MSM or to MoA? references to AQ were made here, starting with b, if that’s what you mean;

Posted by: claudio | Oct 22 2012 0:36 utc | 74

@FtJ
Your comment about what we “know” is not only true of Benghazi but also of life in general, which encourages us to use our brains to figure things out and come to educated conclusions based on generally questionable information. Or we could just give up thinking and focus only on food, sleep and sex.
Regarding Benghazi we have been able to reliably (I think) describe the situation more accurately than what we are being fed by the government. If you don’t believe our scenario (CIA, Syria, etc) and you don’t believe the government scenario then what do you believe?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 22 2012 0:41 utc | 75

Daniel Rich @ 44 — Thanks for the link analyzing the bombing assassination of Harira in February 2003. Very interesting.
Again, who benefitted from the ugly murder of Hariri? Israel? Non-Sharia Arab countries? The US? Who would want Syria out of Lebanon, as happened on 4/25/2003. Perhaps the same states working to break apart the Syrian nation?
Given the forces unleashed within Syria, the US and its cohorts in taking down Syria could certainly spare a few special ops or even some Al Q-types to set up a nasty bomb….
No way to know for sure, of course.
But, Syria has not benefitted from either of these bomb assassinations.

Posted by: jawbone | Oct 22 2012 3:09 utc | 76

@74 & 75
You both ignored the point made in the last sentence of #72
I understand that #74 was, as usual, busy hunting for something to pretend to be offended by, and generally couldn’t distinguish his anus from his elbow, but #75, I thought you were a little sharper than

Posted by: yo | Oct 22 2012 4:18 utc | 77

well I insist that I am somebody (and I really mean somebody) and I said exactly that exactly above your post no72 :-))
But if you scrap the “no one (and I really mean no one)” and replace it by neither US Democrats nor US republicans nor aligned or “independent” media, your question goes to the heart of things.
And it is supported by “angry arab”‘s observation that the New York Times did not mention the Al Queida flags at Wissam al Hassam’s funeral, part of western supported March 14 forces.
(Al-Qa`idah is now an official member of the “pro-Western” March 14 coalition in Lebanon: we have seen this film before–a few times)
So yes, US/Nato is aligned with Al Queida as a proxy force to fight Iran.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 22 2012 7:00 utc | 78

I was not referring merely to the fact that it was an anniversary of 9/11 – I was referring to which specific anniversary it was – and despite my mentioning it twice now, you still do not get it – so, business as usual then
On 10th Sept 2011 I was sitting with several people, one of whom mentioned that he thought there might be “a terrorist attack” on the following day – the 10th anniversary of 9/11
I told him I thought there was little chance of that as the people that I reckoned carried it out were far more likely, for symbolic reasons, to carry out some mission on the 11th anniversary
He, “expert” that he thought himself, scoffed at this and mumbled something about “crazy conspiracy theories”
So just to annoy him I challenged him, in front of witnesses, to put his money where his mouth was – if there was an attack on the 10th anniversary, as he claimed there probably would be, then I would pay him 20 Euro – if however there was no attack on that date then we would wait a year and see what happens on the 11th anniversary.
If there was no attack on that date I promised to pay him 10 Euros, but if there was then he had to pay me 30 Euros – a pretty good deal for him he reckoned, since he had 2 chances to collect whereas I only had one, so he took the bet.
I collected my 30 Euro 3 weeks ago . . . .

Posted by: FtJ | Oct 22 2012 8:56 utc | 79

which is why I’m pretty damn certain that whoever organised this attack, it was arranged or conceived well over one year ago, and it wasn’t some “Al Qeada” or Muslim – and as far as I’m concerned Stevens was definitely the intended target, and it had nothing to do with any imaginary “weapons curbing” program that the US claimed he was involved in.
Whoever originally ordered the attack had the power to track the movements of Stevens, and quite probably had the power to actually effect his itinerary, possibly even direct his movements.
In my opinion that person (or group of persons) reside within the US power structure, or have agents well-placed within the US intel community.
And despite your worst efforts to attempt to imply otherwise, somebody, The persons ultimately responsible are most definitely not Libyan or Qatari or anything of the sort.

Posted by: FtJ | Oct 22 2012 9:12 utc | 80

Hi, FTJ, you fail to explain why the number 11 should signify more than the number 10 as far as celebrating anniversaries go…
And you contradict yourself as it is obvious media in the US, Republicans and Democrats do not mention the anniversary in the incident (as you confirm yourself), so which party should have an interest in the US celebrating the anniversary this way and then not talk about it?
I am just using logic …

Posted by: somebody | Oct 22 2012 10:09 utc | 81

ok, Newsweek goes there now – in part
“In Washington that morning of Sept. 11, 2012, the air had been crisp and clear and so much like the crisp, clear morning of 11 years before that President Obama mentioned the similarities at a 9/11 memorial service outside the Pentagon. But much else had changed, he said. “Al Qaeda’s leadership has been devastated and Osama bin Laden will never threaten us again,” he told the small audience of employees, their dark glasses glistening in the bright sun. “No single event can ever destroy who we are,” Obama concluded. “No act of terrorism can ever change what we stand for.”
But over the course of the next 24 hours, as the black banner of jihad flew over the United States Embassy in Cairo, and as the American Consulate and the nearby outpost of the CIA in Benghazi came under ferocious attack, all the assumptions on which the administration had founded its counterterrorism policies were called into question. And in the weeks since, the events of that day have come under enormous scrutiny in the close-fought race for the presidency.”

Posted by: somebody | Oct 22 2012 11:13 utc | 82

“Hi, FTJ, you fail to explain why the number 11 should signify more than the number 10 as far as celebrating anniversaries go…
you’re right – I did – think of it as a basic intelligence test.**
“And you contradict yourself “ –
no . . . definitely didn’t do that
” I am just using logic …”
Oh lordy – is that what you call it?
ok, Newsweek goes there now – in part
no it doesn’t – not even close, buddy
————-
** – you failed by the way

Posted by: FtJ | Oct 22 2012 14:22 utc | 83

FTJ :-)) I assume their was no election in 10 …

Posted by: somebody | Oct 22 2012 14:29 utc | 84

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