Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 31, 2012
Syria: Washington Needs To Climb Down

About a thousand insurgents are trying to hold territory in Syria's biggest city Aleppo. The Syrian army is certainly capable of defeating them with an all out assault but that would be costly in lives and it would lead to the destruction of those neighborhoods. So far the Syrian army has not tried to assault the insurgents in those suburbs but so far uses only probing skirmishes to find their exact position. It may be going for a kind of siege. That again may be part of a plan to suck more insurgents into the fight before fixing them in place and finishing them off.

It could also be a sign of a weakening army. But I have yet to see any other symptom for that to be the case. Sure the army has made and makes mistakes. There recently was a video showing a platoon of tanks trying to assault an insurgent stronghold in urban terrain without infantry support. As any capable tactician would have predicted they got slaughtered by RPG volleys from the side streets. But the Syrian army still has lots of resources. There has been no attack by the air force yet and helicopters have been used only sparsely. There are certainly more troops and reservists available and willing to join the fight on the government side.

But my impression is the general situation in Syria is still deteriorating. The Syrian insurgency consist of unemployed youth, some army defectors and bandits and criminal gangs. But more and more foreign Jihadist arrive every day with seasoned al-Qaeda fighters in the lead. The insurgency is increasingly sectarian and brutal in its behavior. Today some insurgents overran two lightly armed police stations, killed all 40 policemen (video, graphic) and ransacked the buildings. Christians and other minorities are starting to arm to defend themselves. If this downward spiral continues as more Jihadists come ine Syria will get wreaked.

The Obama administration is only now starting to understand that a continuation of its confrontational policy of arming the rabble and Jihadists will lead to the total destruction of the Syrian state with bad secondary effects all around. Yesterday it sent out defense secretary Panetta to warn the opposition that it will have to keep the Syrian state and its institutions intact.

But the insurgents will not listen to that and will continue their destructive path. They just revealed a plan to create a military dictatorship in Syria with their local leadership in the role of the dictator. The Wahabbi U.S. allies in the Gulf states will also not agree with Panetta's begging. They want a Sunni dominated Islamic state in Syria that will put Christians and Allawis into a second class citizens role (if not to death) and will exclude them from any relevant posts. They will continue to send their unwanted revolutionary youth and lots of money to the most radical parts of the insurgency.

Schemes like a junta in a box around the playboy soldier Manaf Tlass are stupid dreams and like the bickering Syrian National Council very unlikely to be acceptable to the Syrian people.

There is only one way to stop the carnage and to keep Syria intact. That is to let Assad win enough to make a political deal possible. For that all foreign support for the insurgency has to stop and new negotiations will have to be started including Russia and Iran. There is no guarantee that such negotiations will lead to an outcome that is acceptable to everybody. But as it is becoming more and more clear the alternatives are worse.

Washington is not yet ready to climb down. It may need another six month, a new secretary of state and more serious consequences of the destruction of the Syrian state coming into view before a different policy will be pursued.

Comments

@b –

That again may be part of a plan to suck more insurgents into the fight before fixing them in place and finishing them off. It could also be a sign of a weakening army

I’d say that a sign of weakness would be a rapid escalation with helicopters and all; I mean, the regime wouldn’t go down without an all-out, “gloves off” effort, would it?
there are many other dynamics at work (besides Us’ belated worries over the aftermath): Iran’s and Hezbollah’s pledges to stand by Assad, the mystery over Bandar bin Sultan’s fate, Turkey’s ever more wobbly stance, the Kurds, etc;
only a sensation, but maybe there are intense talks over the fate of the thousand jihadists in Aleppo right now, and Assad is letting some processes play out

Posted by: claudio | Jul 31 2012 17:14 utc | 1

Makes you wonder how long Washington can continue to paper over the growing chasm between Saudi/Wahhabi ambitions and Washington’s.
You would think that reasonable policymakers would be more spooked by Wahhabi expansionism than by Shiism which is largely in defensive mode.
But, no, like Hollywood, reality is what Washington creates, not the world as it is.

Posted by: JohnH | Jul 31 2012 17:15 utc | 2

I heard a BBC interview this morning with an Independent reporter, embedded, it appears, with the rebels, as he indated he moved with them when they changed areas. He was reporting from one of the overrun police stations, and, as he was trying to describe what happened, he paused before saying all the police (and security personnel) were…pause…killed, shot.
I had the distint feeling they were treated rather badly prior to being “shot.” But that may have been my trying to explain the reporter’s seemingly unnecessary, and longish for radio, pause.
It appears the rebels send out groups to try to take over another neighborhood, sending the inhabitants fleeing and killing any government supporters.
I guess it’s called urban guerrilla warfare…but I am not expert on military matters and tactics.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 31 2012 17:20 utc | 3

oh look, Erdogan is launching aerial strikes against the Turkish people
http://www.bianet.org/english/human-rights/140048-aerial-bombing-forcing-mass-exodus-from-semdinli-mayor-warns

Posted by: Nikon | Jul 31 2012 17:30 utc | 4

It’s been 10 days since the 20 Jul 2012 expiration of the Annan agreement and the constraints the agreement was supposed to put on the Syrian army. I would’ve thought the army would’ve moved more strongly during the last 10 days. I’m not seeing this. After spending some time at anti-government uploaders at Youtube, I get the impression the Syrian army is not putting down the rebellion successfully. Instead, I’m seeing successes by the rebels in fighting and holding their ground in Idlib, Homs, and Aleppo provinces in recent days.
Example, 29 Jul 2012 upload date: a sizeable batallion of rebels in Talbiseh in Homs province has freshly gained possession of several tanks and an armoured personnel carrier on a major highway road and they’ve also taken possession of a sandbagged security checkpoint on the road. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xmazEi4vQdI#t=45s
Example, 30 Jul 2012, five kilometers northwest of Aleppo city the rebels took over the highway road checkpoint called Anadan together with the army base right beside it called Hryatan. As part of the takeover of the Hryatan army base, the rebels captured seven large and operational armoured vehicles, plus machine guns, plus many MANY caseloads of ammunition for machine guns. Sky News Arabic has a good two-minute video of the rebels in control of these facilities and displaying the hardware they captured: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyIWArfwb8s
Example, 28 Jul 2012: Al-Rastan town in Homs province is still in the hands of rebels, despite ongoing clashes there with the Syrian army: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0vEGIl3_Zw , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-x3CrkE1hM , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFviAXKA-gk
Example, 29 Jul 2012: Atareb town in western Aleppo province is still in the hands of rebels, despite ongoing clashes there with the Syrian army since March 2012. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A8&search_sort=video_date_uploaded&uni=3 . On Atarb see also http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/48142-scared-aleppo-residents-flee-the-onslaught
Example, 29 Jul 2012: Al-Bab town in eastern Aleppo province has fallen into the hands of the rebels for the first time, or at least the rebels have successfully destroyed government and police buildings in the town for the first time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNAb0ZdCkUY
Example: on 30 Jul 2012 the new head of UNSMIS, Babacar Gaye, visited Homs city and said that he witnessed active shelling in Homs city. On the same day, 30 Jul, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said “every quarter of an hour, a blast is heard in Homs city.” http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/0/49056/World/0/UPDATE-As-Aleppo-battle-rages,–killed-elsewhere-i.aspx . SANA acknowledged on 30 July that the army is still fighting in Homs city Khaldiya neighborhood, despite the fact the army has been fighting to cleanse Khaldiya for a month. sana.sy/eng/337/2012/07/30/433946.htm
Those are signs of a poorly organized, poorly marshalled Syrian army.
I could on the other hand give you evidence that the rebels don’t have a hope in hell of winning — such as the item I posted here earlier today that links to http://www.quarterly-review.org/?p=948 . But that’s a different point.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 31 2012 17:33 utc | 5

“The insurgency is increasingly sectarian and brutal in its behavior”. Right. Unlike the Assad government forces who torture and bomb people with utmost human kindness ….

Posted by: A V | Jul 31 2012 17:38 utc | 6

It’s been 10 days since the 20 Jul 2012 expiration of the Annan agreement and the constraints the agreement was supposed to put on the Syrian army. I would’ve thought the army would’ve moved more strongly during the last 10 days. I’m not seeing this. After spending some time at anti-government uploaders at Youtube, I get the impression the Syrian army is not putting down the rebellion successfully. Instead, I’m seeing successes by the rebels in fighting and holding their ground in Idlib, Homs, and Aleppo provinces in recent days.
Example, 29 Jul 2012 upload date: a sizeable batallion of rebels in Talbiseh in Homs province has freshly gained possession of several tanks and an armoured personnel carrier on a major highway road and they’ve also taken possession of a sandbagged security checkpoint on the road. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xmazEi4vQdI#t=45s
Example, 30 Jul 2012, five kilometers northwest of Aleppo city the rebels took over the highway road checkpoint called Anadan together with the army base right beside it called Hryatan. As part of the takeover of the Hryatan army base, the rebels captured seven large and operational armoured vehicles, plus machine guns, plus many MANY caseloads of ammunition for machine guns. Sky News Arabic has a good two-minute video of the rebels in control of these facilities and displaying the hardware they captured: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyIWArfwb8s
Example, 28 Jul 2012: Al-Rastan town in Homs province is still in the hands of rebels, despite ongoing clashes there with the Syrian army: youtube.com/watch?v=Q0vEGIl3_Zw , youtube.com/watch?v=x-x3CrkE1hM
Example, 29 Jul 2012: Atareb town in western Aleppo province is still in the hands of rebels, despite ongoing clashes there with the Syrian army since March 2012. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A8&search_sort=video_date_uploaded&uni=3 . On Atarb see also http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/48142-scared-aleppo-residents-flee-the-onslaught
Example, 29 Jul 2012: Al-Bab town in eastern Aleppo province has fallen into the hands of the rebels for the first time, or at least the rebels have successfully destroyed government and police buildings in the town for the first time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNAb0ZdCkUY
Example: on 30 Jul 2012 the new head of UNSMIS, Babacar Gaye, visited Homs city and said that he witnessed active shelling in Homs city. On the same day, 30 Jul, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said “every quarter of an hour, a blast is heard in Homs city.” SANA acknowledged on 30 July that the army is still fighting in Homs city Khaldiya neighborhood, despite the fact the army has been fighting to cleanse Khaldiya for a month.
Those are signs of a poorly organized, poorly marshalled Syrian army.
I could on the other hand give you evidence that the rebels don’t have a hope in hell of winning — such as the item I posted here earlier today that links to http://www.quarterly-review.org/?p=948 . But that’s a different point.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 31 2012 17:41 utc | 7

re Parviziyi 6
Those are signs of a poorly organized, poorly marshalled Syrian army.
I’m sure that has always been true, apart from Mahir al-Asad’s division.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 31 2012 17:55 utc | 8

Erdogan is attacking turkish town with helicopters and warplanes
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/10477/

Posted by: Nikon | Jul 31 2012 17:56 utc | 9

re 6 again
It’s been 10 days since the 20 Jul 2012 expiration of the Annan agreement and the constraints the agreement was supposed to put on the Syrian army. I would’ve thought the army would’ve moved more strongly during the last 10 days. I’m not seeing this. After spending some time at anti-government uploaders at Youtube, I get the impression the Syrian army is not putting down the rebellion successfully. Instead, I’m seeing successes by the rebels in fighting and holding their ground in Idlib, Homs, and Aleppo provinces in recent days.
I would think the main effect of the attacks upon Damascus and Aleppo is the sowing of confusion, and forcing the abandonment of positions outside the main cities. Whether they will ever be taken back, I don’t know.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 31 2012 18:02 utc | 10

FSA brutals killing two unarmed prisoners in their underpants: video, graphic
@A V – I have yet to see the Syrian army doing anything “indiscriminate”. It is obviously protecting a large part of the population. Those people who fled from the FSA assault on parts of Aleppo, that is all inhabitants of those parts, did flee to government held territory for very good reasons.
@Parviziyi – the Syrian army operates with Soviet tactics. They are less sophisticated than German combined arms operations (which today are used in the west) but very effective if one has the artillery and mass of foot soldiers needed for them. The Syrian army certainly has that but for some reason seems to hold back. From what I can tell it hasn’t even started to use reserves or its more serious weapons.
Don’t try to judge from the number of videos of FSA “victories”. They are made to deceive and do not say much of what is happening on the ground. For every dead Syrian soldier shown in the videos there may be be two or three dead rebels. The Syrian army doesn’t upload videos of its successes.

Posted by: b | Jul 31 2012 18:26 utc | 11

Of course the Reuters link to Defence Sec Panetta’s statement edited out this quote of his directed at Bashar Al Assad.

If you want to be able to protect yourself and your family, you’d better get the hell out now.

I suspect Reuters didn’t include that line in Panetta’s speech because it would make the Americans look like a bunch of gangsters threatening the family members of a foreign head of state. Really shows just what scum the Americans are, thinking they can tell the President of another nation to “get the hell out” if he wants to “protect yourself and your family”. Also maybe shows how desperate the Americans have become that they have to resort to such threats.
Source: RT
On the much delayed “Battle of Aleppo”. Hard to tell much of what is going on. Obviously the battle hasn’t really begun yet. Heard of a few rebel deaths (maybe around 30 to 50) and heard somewhere from a religious leader linked to the FSA that a rebel commander was killed via Sniper. But agree with B it does seem to be just probing and testing the waters thus far. Don’t think it is a sign of weakness from the Syrian military. “Slow and Steady” might not be as dramatic as the American “Shock and Awe” approach of just going in and shooting up the place but it is more cautious and calculated.
Finally the Vatican doesn’t seem to fond of the FSA. From a statement released through Vaticans Fides News Agency:

The Vatican has received reports deemed credible that Sunni rebels financed by Qatar were attacking churches and ordering Christians to leave their homes. The reports, which stemmed from leading Catholic clerics, said the most threatened were Christians in rebel-held areas of Syria.
‘The picture for us is utter desolation,’ Bishop Philip Tournyol Clos, a Greek Catholic cleric, said. The bishop, who holds the title of archimandrite, said a leading church in Syria, Mar Elian, has been destroyed. He said another church, Our Lady of Peace, was occupied by the rebels….
The Vatican determined that some of the Sunni attackers were aligned with the Free Syrian Army, based in Turkey. An FSA commander, identified as Abdul Salam Harba, was said to have ordered Christians out of central Syria.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jul 31 2012 18:49 utc | 12

virtually every “FSA in Combat” video I have seen prior to Monday 30th July involved a mixture of fake footage interspersed with imho equally fake footage of FSA Mercenaries firing blindly at who-knows-what – one thing I noticed about all the footage I viewed of FSA mercenaries firing off their weapons in suppossed combat situations, was that one never ever saw the camera-view PAN to the target – every video involved a CUT to the suppossed target.
That for me was a strong sign that they were just filming these guys firing around corners at absolutely nothing, and then later editing-in footage shot elsewhere, once again who knows where ?
There was no readily available way of divining where the edited-in footage came from, where it was originally filmed – it could have come from Libya or Iraq or anywhere really.

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 19:00 utc | 13

re: The NZ Māori which you are fetishing – they were as addicted to slavery as any of what you would call ‘whitefellas’ – not that one would ever know that reading your rant though – you remind me of the sheep in Orwell’s “Animal Farm”

“Four legs? Good!
Two Legs? Bad!

Or in your case

Blackfella? Good!
Whitefella? Bad!

Lefty racists like yourself like to pretend that your ‘whitefellas’ invented slavery and subjugation of ‘others’ – but of course they did nothing of the sort – they were merely the most sucessful at it, in recent times.

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 19:25 utc | 14

wrong thread

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 19:26 utc | 15

Now that it is clear that the FSA can’t spark a rebellion, neither in Damascus nor in Aleppo, it is a conventional war in Aleppo. The outcome is a given. The syrian army has all the time they need and want.

Posted by: Peter Hofmann | Jul 31 2012 19:41 utc | 16

Without knowing what is the real situation in Aleppo or Syria I guess it makes sense to preserve the elite and loyal forces and use recruits, second rate troops, for the cleaning operations. This war could take a lot of time to wind up and the best forces may be required later, if there is invasion (for example from the clown in the North) or the regime gets cornered on a number of enclaves.
Losing a few tanks or armored vehicles is wasteful but it isn’t going to change the the war. The Syrian army should have old Soviet armor in the thousands lying around. And losing some to the ‘rebels’ isn’t going to benefit much them as they are as useless in urban combat for one said and the other. And the Syrian army can actually service, supply and use them when required.
About ‘war porn’ videos, which I don’t usually search and may be is because I just watch the ‘light’ stuff that comes on the MSM and sites like this, but after so many years it’s clear that most videos where there are a bunch of idiots randomly firing from a corner, with a few others just walking around happily and unafraid, and yet another filming ‘the action’ are basically staged and pointless. It has been way more obvious in Libya.
There may be a few reasons for this. Censorship, as for example YouTube is likely to remove most gruesome videos (if not all videos that may go against the western narrative, but that’s ‘conspirancy theory’ material), and the MSM isn’t ever to show or publicity them. Or that in any real action the one filming would have a lot of chances of getting killed.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jul 31 2012 19:44 utc | 17

Here’s 15 minutes of footage of Syrian army footsoldiers in action in recent days in an urban neighborhood, where rebel gunmen with the protection of buildings are shooting at the army as the army moves along the streets. The cameraman is embedded with the army. The soldiers have some support from tanks. As I watch this footage with regard to the army’s tactics, I think the footsoldiers are not deployed efficiently, and there is not sufficient use of heavy weapons by the army.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ovxQFGWlYwg#t=87s

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 31 2012 20:03 utc | 18

The danger is that, while cleaning out a few rebels in Aleppo, attention is lost about the rest of North Syria. We already have the Kurds in the northeast declaring independence. Many towns around Aleppo have declared independence, like A’zaz and al-Bab (re 6).
The question is: when Aleppo is retaken, will the strength be available to retake the countryside?

Posted by: alexno | Jul 31 2012 20:05 utc | 19

What is the strategy of the “rebels”? Peter Hofmann you maybe right that they hoped to spark an uprising. I doubt that, they must have known the limits of their abilities. Maybe their advisers and backers hoped for that, I do not think so. I that had been the case their would have been leaflets, SMS, whatever telling the population what to do. Their wasn’t. Their was a suprise attack, trying to cause confusion in the security services and the army. That did not succeed, they had their act together.
So the rebels now try to get the army and security services to attack them as to spark political outrage, leading up to intervention or more support among Syrians. Why should the Syrian army fall into that trap? It is very difficult to prevent ambushes that might be done anywhere so the whole of the country is “unsafe”, for that the rebels do not need much strength.
To get rid of rebels weapon supplies and leaders the security services need a chance to infiltrate and watch them – that takes patience.
Much more of a problem presumably is the economic sitution, the Syrian government has to keep the country running.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 31 2012 20:11 utc | 20

re 19 somebody
Look at at my 18, to see the danger.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 31 2012 20:23 utc | 21

The Syrian regime could afford to lose the Kurdish region if that creates a big problem for ‘Crazy’ Erdogan.
Of course eventually all Kurdish regions in Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran are on a crash route for a war of independence against Turks, Arabs, and Persians. But until that times come they are useful pawns in the hands of one or other side.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jul 31 2012 20:29 utc | 22

@b, 10: Let me make sure I understand your point. You’re saying that you don’t believe Assad’s people torture anyone UNLESS a video of Syrian troops torturing people (in their own secure dungeons) are posted on Youtube? Seriously?!!

Posted by: A V | Jul 31 2012 20:30 utc | 23

@ Alexno #18: I believe the answer to your question is contained in the comment by Peter Hoffman at #15. The rebels don’t have enough political support nationwide. Therefore they are going to lose.
If it is true that the bulk of the army is and will remain on the side of the government — and it is true! — the outcome is a given and the army has all the time they need and want.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 31 2012 20:32 utc | 24

PS to 20
I received today an email from an ex-student with a video celebrating the independence of A’zaz (a provincial town to the north of Aleppo). When the Syrian army has finished with Aleppo, will it have the strength to move out and retake these provincial towns? I am open to opinions.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 31 2012 20:36 utc | 25

AV #22, perhaps b is referring to the penchant of some rebels to PROUDLY release videos of themselves doing the most despicable things. Whatever bad things the Syrian government might be doing, it has the sense not to brag about it in public. I admit that makes your job of finding evidence harder than b’s, but that’s not his fault.
As of this time, people are talking about 5,000 Syrian soldiers killed in the fighting. One does not suffer that level of casualties when simply firing artillery at a distance. You suffer those kinds of casualties when you send in infantry in built up areas trying your damndest to AVOID civilian casualties.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 31 2012 20:53 utc | 26

Dear Parviziyi re 23
Your 6 was pretty negative. I have no doubt that the army will succeed in clearing Aleppo, but in clearing it, the city will be partly wrecked, and many inhabitants have fled. It is one of the main bases of government power.
The government forces then have to move out, and retake the provincial towns. I hope it’s possible, but the point of the suicide attack upon Aleppo and Damascus was to disrupt the base.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 31 2012 20:59 utc | 27

@ Alexno #18, #24, you commented that A’zaz and al-Bab, two towns east of Aleppo city, have “declared independence” in the last few days. In other words, the government’s police forces have collapsed and the armed rebels are in full control in the two towns. How much support do the rebels have from the local population in those towns? Answer in two parts: (1) On the basis of turnout size in the Youtube videos of the anti-government rallies in those particular towns in the months leading up to today, the rebels do not have the support of most of the population there. (2) On the basis of behaviour in other towns that fell under rebel control elsewhere in Syria, we can expect the bulk of the population of those towns to have fled, leaving the rebels in control of severely de-populated towns. “The outcome is a given and the army has all the time they need and want.”

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 31 2012 21:04 utc | 28

alexno no 20, the solution in the end will have to be political not military, with or without Bashar al Assad. I don’t think he cares, the more the rebels fight, however, the more Syrian elite are besieged, the more he is obliged to stay. For a political solution everybody has to stop fighting.
The rebels face the same problems as the Syrian army – either concentrate in one place (and be defeated in one place) or spread – at least that is what this Daily Telegraph article says
Panetta seems to hope for a military junta – I am sure it will not happen – but highlights the complete disconnect of the US from what is happening on the ground, as of course the FSA will not go for it as they do not have the power to form this junta on their own. Al Qeida helps Assad politically, he has said it all along, as long as the West does not take it as pretext to intervene. Fleeing civilians – I do not think it works for the rebels – as long as the army does not target indiscriminately and I do not think they do. Their techniques may not be accurate, however (army technique never is, i.e. collateral damage which could be called targeting indiscriminately). News that rebels win in Aleppo – does not worry Assad as long as Syrians do not get that impression, just the international press. It actually works for him as nobody will call for intervention as long as the rebels can win on their own.
US NATO won in Iraq and Afghanistan militarily they just lost politically at the same time.
I guess if Syrians want to keep Aleppo intact it would be a good idea not to fight there.
The elephant in the room of course is that outside powers backing the rebels will only agree on a political solution that garanties a shift of Syria’s alliance with Iran to an alliance with Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Quatar (plus Israel), how these outside powers managed to get stuck with a Salafi alliance that practically guarantees that this shift from the resistance axis cannot be sold to Syrian elites, nor support for the rebels can be sold to Western tax paying citizens must remain their secret. How they managed on the way to get into a confrontation with Russia and China is not that much of a secret, as same Jihadists are used in Caucasus and in Xinjiang.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 31 2012 21:07 utc | 29

Zio-lunacy alert!
Unable to get their Western Lackeys to bomb the living hell out of Syria for them, the Zionauts are attempting to play the emotional-blackmail card once again.
Exposé: Iran and Syria’s Nerve Gas is Made in Europe

Nothing keeps a German or French firm – and a British, Italian or Swiss one – from making a good profit. And if it puts the Zionist state in danger, no problem. . . .
. . .
A four milligram droplet of VX kills in under an hour. The first symptoms include drooling, sweating, difficulty breathing and the constriction of pupils to zombie pinpoints. Then come gastrointestinal spasms, vomiting, convulsions and asphyxiation. Unlike other nerve gases, such as sarin, VX evaporates slowly so winds can’t blow it away. And unlike sarin, VX penetrates the skin.
What very few people know is that European companies and scientists gave Iran, Syria, Libya and Iraq the material to attempt to kill the Jews, again.

Booga booga!!!
I wonder how many more Free Nuclear Subs and how many more billions of Euro/Dollars in ‘Holocaust compensation’ they’ll try to squeeze out of Germany with this one?

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 21:16 utc | 30

@ alexno

When the Syrian army has finished with Aleppo, will it have the strength to move out and retake these provincial towns? I am open to opinions.

Well just look at the numbers. Syria’s armed forces (Army, Navy, Airforce) have 300,000 personnel. How much you reckon the FSA has? 10,000? 20,000? Most of them untrained and split into dozens of factions and militias with little coordination.
IMO Assad isn’t going to lose militarily. He may lose politically, if the Baath Party and Russia/Iran/China decide it is better to toss him aside and keep the structure in place. I think that is what Panetta was hinting at today when he said: “The best way to preserve that kind of stability is to maintain as much of the military and police as you can, along with security forces”.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jul 31 2012 21:18 utc | 31

US/NATOGCC sponsored Freedom and Democracy fighters in action in Syria…I’m sure the msm will still classify them as peaceful protesters..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARV5LrK9S-k&feature=player_embedded
There’s no hope for the world we live in when truth is only told when lies run out..

Posted by: Zico | Jul 31 2012 21:21 utc | 32

According to the Wikipedia entry on VX, “The only countries known to possess VX are the United States and Russia.”

Posted by: lysias | Jul 31 2012 21:22 utc | 33

“The best way to preserve that kind of stability is to maintain as much of the military and police as you can, along with security forces”. “
which is the exact opposite of what the US did in Iraq – and imho it was a very deliberate move by the US, fully aware of the consequences
But just because Panetta reportedly SAID something does not mean that that is what he wants or intends to take positive steps to make happen
People still keep confusing words and actions – there really is no reason to suppose that his words have any bearing on the future actions or demands of the Western psychos.
That anyone would think that he was necessarily articuating what they actually want or intend, given the disconnect between words and action these psychopaths so frequently display, is something that still perplexes me, tbh

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 21:29 utc | 34

@lysias
While I never put much stock in what appears in wikipedia concerning any potentially contentious political or scientific issue , that info would be interesting and useful if true
Not doubting your statement, just Wikipedia itself as a source of reliable and comprehensive info

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 21:33 utc | 35

@ Hu Bris,
I was just meaning to suggest that, if Syria has stocks of VX, Russia is the most likely source.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 31 2012 21:40 utc | 36

the source for that claim on wiki appears to be “The Council For Foreign Relations” (CFR)- bug-bear of “consparicy theorists” the world over – having quickly examined the source document:

The only countries that have admitted to having VX or a closely related agent are the United States and Russia.

so I spose ‘admitted’ will for the moment pass as ‘known to have’
but it also goes on to say:

Experts say Iraq successfully weaponized VX sometime in the late 1980s. There were reports that Syria successfully produced VX or a similar agent and tested missile warheads armed with VX.

“Experts say” & “There were reports” – both the supposed ‘Experts’ and supposed ‘reports’ in question are apparently unsourced of course
so between the Wiki and the CFR we’re really none the wiser – but to be honest, IMO, on the subject of Syria and Iran the CFR are about as trustworhty as the Zio-loons

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 21:47 utc | 37

@ lysias – no doubt that in the current political climate it’s a big IF, but point taken –

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 21:52 utc | 38

btw: I’d bet that Israel has VX

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 31 2012 22:05 utc | 39

yesterday,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8PyIOAa6D4
L-36 Albatros, Czech made trainer jet in low flying and firing, over Aleppo. It’s obviously modified to carry weapons.
and this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqdxaihTDxU
name of this guy is Khaled Al-Turki from Saudi Arabia, he find its ends on the street of Aleppo. It is terrible picture. This video vividly depict and bringing close horror of the streets fight and war.
That weapons sounds like Kalashnikov PKM – in Bosnian war known as M-84 or Sower of Death.
All this remind me of Sarajevo, this was “standard” situation overthere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alF65UKAQn4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Yin23yJ5M
The main culprits of these horrors, and many others, the Merchant of Death are seating in Washington, and Bruxelles – NATO and Governments of the Western countries.

Posted by: neretva’43 | Jul 31 2012 22:20 utc | 40

I think what you Leftists need to realize is that there is a difference between what you WANT to be happening, and what is ACTUALLY happening.
A revolution is taking place. Against a secular dictator who has worked with the CIA and assisted them with the rendition program that you all claim to despise so much. His family has been in power for over four decades and has plundered the countries resources, and spent the money they have stolen in the poshest neighborhoods of London, Paris and Geneva. Why are you guys defending him again?
Assad is done. He has no viable option left expect MAYBE deciding to kill a million or so with his chemical weapons and praying NATO doesn’t bomb out every palace and hiding spot he has.
But I will let you clowns keep typing away, finding an article here and there that you can claim shows that Assad will somehow prevail in the end, just like you all did for Ghaddafi. But no worries, the people of Syria will keep fighting on until Assad is dead and the revolution prevails.

Posted by: Reality Check | Jul 31 2012 22:59 utc | 41

Say Reality Check give us some context. Are you part of the humanitarian intervention wing of Western liberalism? Or a Salafi activist? Or a genuine backer of people’s revolutions in the third world? Difficult to respond if you don’t let us know.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 31 2012 23:29 utc | 42

re parviziyi 27
Re al-Bab, I don’t have any evidence and maybe mistake. Re A’zaz, I have an email sent today by an ex-student with video celebrating “liberation”.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 31 2012 23:46 utc | 43

Reality Check appears to be a Cut’n’Paste Conquistador. This is the exact same post as in the previous thread.

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Jul 31 2012 23:50 utc | 44

Maybe it is Juan Cole.

Posted by: neretva’43 | Aug 1 2012 0:00 utc | 45

re somebody
alexno no 20, the solution in the end will have to be political not military, with or without Bashar al Assad. I don’t think he cares, the more the rebels fight, however, the more Syrian elite are besieged, the more he is obliged to stay. For a political solution everybody has to stop fighting.
I would think Bashshar is terrified. A gentle ophthalmologist from London who was thrown unexpected into the rule of Syria. And now he could well be strung up, for being the son of Hafiz.

Posted by: alexno | Aug 1 2012 0:03 utc | 46

The reality check crowd keep saying Assad is done, yet funnily reality keeps proving them wrong.

Posted by: Nikon | Aug 1 2012 0:22 utc | 47

There is only one way to stop the carnage and to keep Syria intact. That is to let Assad win enough to make a political deal possible. For that all foreign support for the insurgency has to stop and new negotiations will have to be started including Russia and Iran.
That assumes that the foreign supporters control (or can control) the insurgency. This is probably likely in the case of the FSA and the SNC etc, but it will not work with the AQ jihadis. Their aims are quite different from those of the Syrian insurgents; they are not interested in keeping Syria or its state intact. So, such a plan depends for its success on how strong the jihadis are. If they are a major fighting force in the insurgency, no solution can be negotiated or put in place by outside powers; the only thing that will stop them is for the Assad regime to win militarily and slowly eradicate them. Whether it can do that is still an open question.

Posted by: FB Ali | Aug 1 2012 0:31 utc | 48

I would think Bashshar is terrified.
No one know that for sure, but I wouldn’t think so.
Now, he is men who, now, has the mission. Historic one. The mission to defend the only homeland against barbarians just as the Syrians had fought against Ottomans, French, Israelis in the past. Barbarian like Mitt Romney and his ilks is going to rule over them! No nation that hold to themselves may allow that.
On Sana’s site there is Seumas Milne’s article with the title: Ignoring imperial past licenses a likely repeat. They are obviously well aware what’s is going on, and what’s ahead of them if they failed. I hope he/they are up to task.

Posted by: neretva’43 | Aug 1 2012 0:43 utc | 49

Syrian army has cleared most of aleppo of rebels
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/08/01/253775/calm-restored-in-syrias-aleppo/

Posted by: Nikon | Aug 1 2012 1:00 utc | 50

@Nikon – citing from your link to presstv

The army said on Tuesday that it killed tens of rebels in the Salahuddin and al-Sukkari neighborhoods of the city. … However, government forces and foreign-backed militants are still skirmishing in some parts of the city.

doesn’t seem like it will be over soon, unless the army lets the rebels flee, as it did in Damascus
@FB Ali – it’d be interesting to know how many of those AQ jihadis are in Aleppo right now, and where; it seems the West is giving a break to Assad, at least during the Olympics, as b said; maybe there’s a common interest regarding the idea of wiping out at least some of the most out-of-control AQ jihadis;
btw, I was thinking that Russian expertise in urban war against “terrorists” makes Grozny come to mind – eerie memories … the West has Jenin and Fallujah … urban warfare is a very nasty matter; actually I think the Syrian army is taking it slowly because it can hardly afford to offer the world that kind of show; a siege would be the less bloody and destructive way to go, but it’s quite hard to organize within a big city;

Posted by: claudio | Aug 1 2012 1:05 utc | 51

one must add, that one thing is to destroy an “enemy” city, quite another is to deal with rebels entrenched in a city with civilians held as human shields

Posted by: claudio | Aug 1 2012 1:07 utc | 52

What the US did in Fallujah was to allow the old and female to exit, but not the MAMs (Military Age Males), and then anyone left was a valid target. The city and everyone left in were then destroyed by US Marines. (The US Army had been ineffective earlier.) I guess the al-Assad Regime™ isn’t versed on modern war theory.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 1 2012 1:35 utc | 53

“Every one may begin a war at his pleasure, but cannot so finish it. A prince, therefore, before engaging in any enterprise should well measure his strength, and govern himself accordingly.”
Niccolo Machiavelli
and indeed. EU/NATO, GCC and KSA can’t stop this low-level intensity conflict even if they can. This, so-called low-level intensity conflict, has reached the level animosity where political solution is not likely. Hate and disdain showed (in above videos) by Wahabist/Salafist don’t live room for negotiation.
First question is: what would be matter of negotiation between Syrian Gov. and mercenaries composed (1 out 4) of foreign elements? Establishing so-called “liberal-democracy” (or faking it as recently in Libya) according to “the international community” or UN?
Second question: Since this is violent attempt of overthrowing Syrian Government in behalf of “the international community”, whom, mercenaries, would represent to? NATO, GCC and KSA, or UN?
Nonsense. That would be the end of Syria as we know it.
There is no such thing as “expertise” in urban war. Destruction and extensive damage of the city is ensued. Recently I read something about the Grozny and the author mention the biggest mistake was not encircling (in the first siege) the town, thus supply line were open. US used incendiary ammunition and DU in Fallujah, slaughtering 7.000 Iraqis, even today to visit Fallujah special permit is needed.
Some note from the prudent man China’s foremost modern intellectual Liang Qichao:
“In the world,” Liang concluded bleakly, “there is only power – there is no other force … Hence, if we wish to attain liberty, there is no other road: we can only seek first to be strong.”

Posted by: neretva’43 | Aug 1 2012 1:56 utc | 54

“What the US did in Fallujah was to allow the old and female to exit,”
That most assuredly is NOT what the US did in Fallujah – I had a long ‘debate’ over this years ago on another now defunkt website and at the time I scoured ALL available sources for casulties in Fallujah –
One startling figure I came across, from one of the international medical organisations was that nearly 50% of ALL the casulties that ended up in either a hospital or a morgue in Fallujah (including both civilian and ‘jihadis/resistance/insurgents/terrorists, whatever you want to call them) were in fact FEMALE – meaning that the US just slaughtered anyone they came across irrespective of suppossed ‘combatant-status’
One other startling statistic was that the vast majority of those females died as a result of bullet wounds – meaning that US snipers and soldiers actually seemed to have gone out of their way to target these females
And I also came across numerous reports at the time that up to neary a week before the attack on the city , far from preventing only ‘fighting-age males’ from leaving, the US actually made efforts to prevent anyone from leaving

Posted by: Hu Bris | Aug 1 2012 1:57 utc | 55

I also found out that MAM’s were apparently defined as ’12 yrs old or above’

Posted by: Hu Bris | Aug 1 2012 1:59 utc | 56

“Hate and disdain showed (in above videos) by Wahabist/Salafist don’t live room for negotiation. “
THAT is the message the ‘Clash of Civilisations’ junkies want people to take away from this – only they want poeople to just substitute ‘Muslim’ for ‘Wahabist/Salafist’

Posted by: Hu Bris | Aug 1 2012 2:01 utc | 57

“Well just look at the numbers. Syria’s armed forces (Army, Navy, Airforce) have 300,000 personnel. How much you reckon the FSA has? 10,000? 20,000? Most of them untrained and split into dozens of factions and militias with little coordination..”
There is no real limit to the numbers of armed fighters that the imperialists can infiltrate into Syria: the numbers are heavily against the Syrians. The army could wipe out all the opposition today and there would be twice as many tomorrow. The only hope that Syria has is to change the game, either by cutting NATO out of the equation, which only the Russians and Chinese can do, insisting that they stop supporting the insurgency. Or/and taking the fight to the Sauds and their Arab League friends.
At the moment the forces lining up against Syria are daunting.
Hu Bris, I realise that you know everything but you might want to reconsider the empirical underpinnings of this discovery of yours, directed at Debs who was doing you the favour of furthering your education.
“Lefty racists like yourself like to pretend that your ‘whitefellas’ invented slavery and subjugation of ‘others’ – but of course they did nothing of the sort – they were merely the most sucessful at it, in recent times.”
What you are saying is a variation of a standard, and very tired, apology for imperialism. You might as well tell us that Montezuma would have run amok in Cadiz or the Inca would have been absolutely ruthless if he’d cornered Charles V and his court. The actual historical record shows what has happened in the last five hundred years and who did what to whom. The victimisation of aboriginal societies, such as the Maori, is a fact. It is not an indictment of a race or people (the English) but of the imperialist system, which has been inextricably linked with liberal capitalism, during its five hundred year existence.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 1 2012 2:09 utc | 58

@Claudio 50,
I have no idea how many jihadis are in Aleppo. The Guardian had a report about jihadis yesterday from Martin Chulov in Beirut that makes interesting reading (though I am rather surprised at his claim that Turkey allowed these jihadis to transit its territory).
I don’t think the Russians showed much expertise in urban warfare in Grozny. They just levelled the city, block by block. You can afford to do that if the population is not your own people.

Posted by: FB Ali | Aug 1 2012 2:21 utc | 59

Hu Bris, I realise blah blah blah, directed at Debs who was doing you the favour of furthering your education.
ROFLMAO -you leftists sure do say the most ridiculous things sometimes
I realise that some of you leftist-dogmatics have some weird desire to rush to the defence of the ‘Anti-racism’ Maoiri-fetishist Debs – but why bring it up here, where it is definitely OT in this thread?
“What you are saying is a variation of a standard, and very tired, apology for imperialism.”
It’s nothing of the sort – that is just you making a strawman argument.
People like you seem to have a real hard time dealing with basic historical facts – I offered absolutely no defence of imperialism at all – you may imagine that I did but that’s your over-active imagination at fault, not anything I said.
” The victimisation of aboriginal societies, such as the Maori, is a fact”
The vicimisation of any and ALL socities that imperialists wanted to victimise is the only fact here – if you want to insist on inserting the word ‘indigenous’ in there, in an uncessaryily public display of how warm, cuddly , politically correct, ‘right-on’ and, most important of all, non-racist you are , you go right ahead, but please don’t attempt to lecture me on imperialist history.
I can assure you I need few lessons on that from anyone here and certainly not from people that preach leftist dogma but appear to have a distinct aversion to anyone stating simple historical facts
“The victimisation of aboriginal societies, such as the Maori, is a fact”
nobody ever said that what you insist on calling ‘aboriginal’ societies, were not victimised – there’s a FACT for you – that’s your over-active imagination once again – though I’ll note that the word you chose, ‘aboriginal’, has itself got racist undertomes associated with it.
Many societies, that people like you would now simply categorise as ‘white’, were victimised, sometimes to a far greater extent than the Maoiri you lot are fetishising about – you ‘Anti-racist’ racists want to ignore all of that because for you they are the wrong colour and consequently upset the simplistic “four legs? Good, Two legs? bad!” flawed narrative you lot are trying to peddle regarding past events
Now, I have no intention of being dragged into your attempts to derail this thread into off topic accusations that rightly belong elsewhere – the thread the argument occured in for instance.
So if you have anything further to say on the matter perhaps you’d show the courtesy to our host and others, of posting it in the comment thread in which it rightfully belongs.
BTW: I know what I said about Fallujah has validity because I went to the bother of spending a lot of time researching it. If that bothers you perhaps you’d be better of frequenting someplace where every one is completely ignorant of just about everything

Posted by: Hu Bris | Aug 1 2012 2:51 utc | 60

Erdogan is wants to join russia and china?
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-287757-erdogan-signals-shanghai-organization-an-alternative-to-eu.html

Posted by: Nikon | Aug 1 2012 4:27 utc | 61

Nice little honey pot. You’re in the CIA or some other agency and you’ve got a whole bunch of Al Q and other chumps who’ve out-lived their usefulness. Don’t let them get too strong in Libya. Set up the next big thing in Syria and send out the call. Let the Syrian army liquidate them. It writes itself.

Posted by: Biklett | Aug 1 2012 5:06 utc | 62

Russia Today’s analysis on what it is about now
Oksana Boyko ‏@OksanaBoyko_RT
#Assad govt attempts to win hearts and minds as daily struggles erode his support #Damascus #Syria http://on.rt.com/xfyrwn

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2012 6:39 utc | 63

since a lot of them will be NONsyrian. they are holding territory that the have no right to

Posted by: brian | Aug 1 2012 7:28 utc | 64

Posted by: FB Ali | Jul 31, 2012 10:21:21 PM | 58
why would anyone read the Guardian? given its clear record of antisyrian bias

Posted by: brian | Aug 1 2012 7:30 utc | 65

What the US did in Fallujah was to allow the old and female to exit, but not the MAMs (Military Age Males), and then anyone left was a valid target. The city and everyone left in were then destroyed by US Marines. (The US Army had been ineffective earlier.) I guess the al-Assad Regime™ isn’t versed on modern war theory.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 31, 2012 9:35:52 PM | 52
theres no such thing as the al-assad regime…there is the syrian govt…
the US (aka Bush regime) as invader had no right to attack Fallujah or kill any iraqi military age male or not.US can be taken to court under Nuremberg rules

Posted by: brian | Aug 1 2012 7:33 utc | 66

meet a real dictator:
Erdogan Makes War on the Turkish Media
People travel over the Bosphorus in a passenger-vehicle ferry in Istanbul 12 July 2012. (Photo: Reuters – Murad Sezer)
By: Hüsnü Mahalli
Published Thursday, July 19, 2012
The Turkish Prime Minister has never tolerated criticism in the media and now constitutional amendments are being prepared to further curtail the freedom of the press.
Istanbul – Throughout his political career, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has all too frequently been stung by the media. The same applied to his spiritual and political mentor, the late leader of the Felicity Party Necmettin Erbakan – and indeed all Islamists.
But the current prime minister, ever since the era when he was responsible for the activities of the National Salvation Party in Istanbul – he would go on to become the city’s mayor in 1994 – has been the particular subject of media campaigns, targeting him personally as well as his party….
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/erdogan-makes-war-turkish-media

Posted by: brian | Aug 1 2012 8:03 utc | 67

I don’t think the US will back down anytime soon..They think they’re winning so what’s the point of backing down? They’re not loosing US soldiers on the ground so it must be good for them..Their main role in the unrest is providing support for the rebels at the highest diplomatic level(UNSC etc.) and providing them with intelligence assistance and logistics..The dirty work of arming/training the rebels(terrorists) have been subcontracted to Turkey and the Persian Gulf monarchs..The only thing the US is loosing is their credibility both regionally and internationally but they don’t give a damn..The end(regime change) justifies the means, no matter what.
The only way this conflict will end is if the backers of the rebels(terrorists) are made to pay dearly..Something which Syrian intelligence apparatus lack at the moment but things could change..Nobody expected Assad to survive this long – even I didn’t..They thought it was going to be a quick and easy victory as they had in Libya.
One thing for sure – this conflict has nothing to do with democracy or human right and everything to do with regime change in order to setup a US/Western backed puppet regime..At least that’s their calculation..it took them a while to admit it after hiding behind the facade of “democracy and human rights” but I for one saw this from the beginning..Like anything else in the Middle East, things are always fluid and one can never foretell the outcome..How many times have we heard US officials predict Assad’s fall within weeks only to come back again and make the same prediction?
In the meantime, the Kurdish situation is also heating up and Erdogan’s becoming a agitated and nervous..Will there be a military coupe or they’ll just watch him drag Turkey into a useless war they never planned to begin with?

Posted by: Zico | Aug 1 2012 8:46 utc | 68

no67, Zico, Libya was not quick and easy at all, and it still is not. It is just not in the press
from today
Stefan Mugitsch ‏@StefanMugitsch
this morning a RPG attack on Military Intelligence Building located in Fuweihat Area #Benghazi #Libya – a huge explosion was to hear
there is more if you are interested.
Erdogan, I think, is pressured to enter Syria, he does not want to.
The US has the choice to let Syria disintegrate or ensure Assad remains in power. They would prefer a Syrian military coup. I do not think they will get that.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2012 9:18 utc | 69

“Russian expertise in urban war” was ironic (black humor)

Posted by: claudio | Aug 1 2012 10:05 utc | 70

Who can present an extrajudicial public execution in the best possible light? Why Al Jazeera of course.

Syrian MP killed publicly by FSA firing squad
Zeino al-Barri, a politician from a Sunni clan loyal to Syria’s President, is killed publicly in Aleppo.
snip
Here in Aleppo, activists tell me, the Shabiha are not Alawite – they are Sunni – and they are often members of a tribe called Barri. I can’t verify the following information myself, as I am moving around Aleppo province. snip
At the beginning of the uprising, the Assad regime allegedly did a deal with some members of the Barri family, offering them amnesty in return for loyalty and putting this drugs mafia at the service of the state. And – I’m told – they were given arms and salaries to stay loyal.

So basically, they shoot a guy in cold blood in front of everybody…but that’s ok because the guys who shot him tell me he’s a really bad guy. And that killing him makes the regime really scared.

Posted by: Lysander | Aug 1 2012 13:29 utc | 71

Here’s a good example of the fake FSA-fighters-in-action propaganda that we’ve seen so much of – this is a still photo but contains all the elements of the fake videos that have flooded the net recently
http://i45.tinypic.com/29c728x.jpg
The MSM photographer/propagandist seemingly wants people believe that it’s a photo of FSA mercenaries in action, firing at some dastardly Syrian Army foe down an alleyway
Note the Mercenary in the foregronund posing as if aiming and about to fire down the alleyway, but note the lack of any firing from any of the weapons,
Note that the Mercenaries in the background are actually standing IN the alleyway and could be easily targetted if there actually were anything or anyone down that alleyway that could return fire
Note the relaxed body language of the Mercenaries in the background, note the weapons held in in relaxed non-firing position,
Note one Mercenary is even holding a cigarette in one hand while his weapon is held waist high, again in an impossible-to-aim-at-anything position and he has a completely relaxed pose
It’s quite plain that the whole scene is merely a ficticious setup, posed merely for purely proagandistic purposes.
It’s quite plain that the MSM photographer sees his role as one of ‘Reality Manufacture’ –
Here is a 2nd photo from the same MSM Propagandist taken at the smae location at approx the same time
http://i49.tinypic.com/2cgeyo9.jpg
Note the smae FSA Mercenaries, especially the guy from the foreground of the previous photo, again adopting a fake ‘fighting pose’.
Note the people, most likely actual civilians, way back in the background,
Note there relaxed body-language.
They look like people out shopping, peering in curiosity down the street at the idiots posing with weapons for the MSM propagandist/photographer – they do not look like people 10’s of meters away from a firefight, even though that clearly is the impression the propagandist intends to create

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 13:44 utc | 72

@ Lysander
extract from your Al J link above

“Up until now, I believed Shabhia meant loosely affiliated bands of paramilitaries-cum-gangsters who were mostly, but not exclusively Alawites – the same Shia sect as Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. These thuggish-looking types with shaved heads, big beards and steroid-loaded biceps, immortalised in self-portraits on Facebook, did – and still do – some of the nastiest work of the regime, including slaughtering and beating opponents. “

compare the description above with the badly beaten back-eyed, damaged-nosed, and obviously coerced, rather weak and pathetic-looking Shabhia guy interrogated recently by the ever-increasingly ridiculous Luke Harding of the Guardian
Syria crisis: a captured Shabiha member in Aleppo speaks – video

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 13:55 utc | 73

Rebels executed 12 elders of the Berri tribe, it will come back and bite them, I suppose. It is completely stupid to film yourself doing stuff like that and claiming it in public. It basically was a Mafia killing and will be dealt with by the families the same way.
There is a – hostile – assessment of where the conflict is at
Syrias mutating conflict by the international crisis group.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2012 14:13 utc | 74

An interesting report from Press Tv
Syrian rebels burn comrades’ bodies in Aleppo to hide nationalities
No idea if it’s true or not, but it reminded me a comment made by the person posting here under the name “somebody”
He was at the time trying to (fraudulently IMHO) pass-off an RT video-report as ‘evidence’ of the Syrian Army indiscriminately murdering civilians.
He stated

“[Here are] sources for civilians including rebels getting killed
http://www.rt.com/news/homs-shelling-smoke-472/

My reply to him came a day or two later

. . . the RT report you posted as ‘evidence’ of the Syrian Army’s supposed killing of large amounts of civilians – all I saw were the charred remains of bodies, which certainly IS quite horrific to look at – – BUT I heard absolutely NO mention of any actual evidence in that video report as to WHO started the fires that killed those humans (I’m quite happy to accept that these charred bones were actually real human remains btw )
I also saw no evidence presented that the charred remains were in fact those of real actual ‘civilians’ – for all you or I know they could easily have been members of the Mercenary Army

My reply of course went completely unacknowledged and he as i expected he would, started posting other unrelated material in an obvious effort to change the subject, because that’s what he does every time his propaganda is challenged and shown to be nonsense.
Anyway it seems from the Press TV report above, If it is truthful, that I was right to be sceptical of such attempts by the person posting under the pseudonym ‘somebody’, at providing ‘evidence’ which in truth showed none of what he claimed it showed, upon closer examination.
I mention this only to make other people aware of the need to closely examine anything and evrything that this person posts here – while much if not most of it is on the surface perfectly acceptable, he will frequently insert in the middle of that, some patently obvious lies/propaganda, and often makes bald assertions, stating as fact things which are highly dubious to say the least, without a shred of supporting evidence, all the while claiming innocence in terms of intent or motive.
IMHO his motives ARE suspect, but admittedly that’s just MY opinion, and many others here have sometimes quite forcefully disagreed with such opinions of mine, as is their right,
The Press TV report above provides further corrboration of that own opinion, if more were necessary, that his suppossed ‘evidence’ for the things he claims always needs to be examined carefully

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 14:27 utc | 75

What about Banda bin Sultan ? You think could be dead?

Posted by: timidcur | Aug 1 2012 14:46 utc | 76

IMHO his motives ARE suspect, but admittedly that’s just MY opinion

everybody’s is a suspect on the net, including you, Hu bris, always playing well-known divise games; no way you can establish yourself as leader of the pack here, simply too many heavyweights; of course, you “studied Fallujah” and this left the rest of us awed, but still it’s not enough
rule of thumb: as long as you discuss matters, everything is ok; if you start picking on people … mmmmh … everybody asks himself: “what’s this guy up to?”
btw, just about everyone here already has his own criteria to determine who to pay attention to, and who to be suspicious of, so relax, no need to play the “canary in a coal mine”, thank you

Posted by: claudio | Aug 1 2012 14:59 utc | 77

@brian
Gotcha on “regime.” It was supposed to be a snark with regime capitalized and a “TM” after “Regime” but it didn’t work. I guess the MofA html acceptance is limited to what is shown.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 1 2012 15:11 utc | 78

@HuBris
I said that females were allowed to leave Fallujah; I didn’t say that they did leave.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 1 2012 15:13 utc | 79

@76 Well put claudio but then again Hu bris’ pointing out contradictory postings about Syria that he SHOWS to be highly suspect is a good read.

Posted by: thirsty | Aug 1 2012 15:19 utc | 80

I would’ve thought the Syrian army was big enough and strong enough to restore law and order in Aleppo by now, or at least to have made considerably more progress than what’s been made during the last seven days in Aleppo. I’m having cognitive dissonance about the capabilities of the army.
The biggest-selling privately-owned daily newspaper in Syria is Al-Watan. It supports the government and has lots of contacts with people in the government. Its report today about Aleppo (in Arabic at http://alwatan.sy/dindex.php?idn=126316 ) contains very little information reported from its own Syrian sources. The same is true of other pro-government news sources in Syria regarding Aleppo. Regarding Aleppo the government is playing its cards close to its vest, and the pro-government news outlets are cooperating. Since they love to talk about their successes, the fact they’re not talking about Aleppo can be an omen they’re not doing well.
Another omen that the army is in poor control of the situation is that gunmen abducted the Sheikh Mahmoud Hassoun, the brother of Syria’s grand mufti Badruddien Hassoun, during prayers in the Osama bin Zaed mosque in Aleppo on Tuesday night. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-08/01/c_123504367.htm
One thing Al-Watan says is the army is creating a partial cordon around some Aleppo city neighborhoods where the rebels are in control, while the rebels inside have built defensive facilities. I read that as: the army is not bringing the fight to the enemy — why not?
The security situation is festering. The army does not have all the time in the world to clean it up. The rebels cannot win, alright, but the government and its supporters are losing every day the security situation festers. In a vignette from RT.com linked to by ‘somebody’ #63, a Damascus merchant found all three of his transport vans burned out [ presumably burned by rebels]. He used to count himself a government supporter. But now his loyalties are uncertain. He says: “I don’t support the Opposition. But if the government can’t provide us with peace and security, either I’ll have to move to another country or the government needs to go.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wmHMtO4ZiB8#t=151s

Posted by: Parviziyi | Aug 1 2012 15:37 utc | 81

press tv is full of psychological warfare, however I believe this here to be the explanation why “Free” and “Syrian Arab” army consider Aleppo to be a Schwerpunkt battle, though it does not seem to be in the interest of the “Free” army to assemble all its members there to get killed
“The scenario is very clear. If Aleppo falls into the hands of the opposition and the Syrian Army fails to recapture it, it will turn into Benghazi II. The transitional government will be deployed there and will demand help from NATO and Western governments. Aleppo will become a key point and a move will be made on Damascus once again.”
no b. the US is not going to climb down, they are still pretending/dreaming the Syrian opposition works for this:
“The future will include all Syrians of all backgrounds. The Syrian opposition has enunciated a clear vision that there is a credible alternative to the Assad regime that will end the violence, protect their fundamental human rights, and address their aspirations. We applaud the opposition’s efforts to bring together and unite a broad range of elements, including Sunni, Shia, Kurds, Christians, Turkmen, Druze, and Alawites and others under a common plan. We commend the opposition for committing to this work and look forward to the group’s continued cooperation and efforts to work toward a future democratic state ruled by a new constitution that protects the universal human rights of all the Syrian people.”

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2012 15:38 utc | 82

@ timidcur

What about Bandar bin Sultan ? You think could be dead?

Who knows? Pepe Escobar had a good summary of the rumourmill today in Asia Times Online. On the other hand Angry Arab seems to think the whole thing is stupid and made up by Syria.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Aug 1 2012 15:46 utc | 83

@ claudio
” everybody’s is a suspect on the net, including you, Hu bris, always playing well-known divise games; no way you can establish yourself as leader of the pack here, simply too many heavyweights; of course, you “studied Fallujah” and this left the rest of us awed, but still it’s not enough2
STILL have not got over the whole ‘Occupy’ thing, eh? Oh well
No one is trying to ‘awe’ you with anything, Claudio – imho you credit yourself with a little too much importance. Merely just passing on what I know about Fallujah, in rerspose ot something som,eone else posted. – you can ignore it or not, I don’t really care
“rule of thumb: as long as you discuss matters, everything is ok; if you start picking on people … mmmmh … everybody asks himself: “what’s this guy up to?””
yeah poor little ‘s’ – caught slipping in lies and propaganda all the time – how terribly uncouth of me to notice, and unexcusably rude to even think of mentioning it.
“btw, just about everyone here already has his own criteria to determine who to pay attention to, and who to be suspicious of, so relax, no need to play the “canary in a coal mine”, thank you”
I love the way you’ve appointed yourself spokesman for ‘everyone here’ – you know you really don’t have to make any comments at all if what I say bothers you that much – no one is forcing you to do anything here, but you really should let the whole ‘Occupy’ thing go, cos setting yourself up in opposition to everything I say just cos you’re still P’d off about ‘occupy’ is a little silly tbh

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 16:04 utc | 84

“I said that females were allowed to leave Fallujah; I didn’t say that they did leave.”
No probs, Don – I merely wanted to point out that actually I’d read many reports at the time that many that tried to leave in the week before the massacre in Fallujah were in fact NOT allowed to leave. That’s all

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 16:05 utc | 85

Parviziyi, you are right, pro government twitter has also largely fallen silent, too. I guess Aleppo elites are powerful, they do not want their city destroyed. The destruction only occurs when there is fighting. So the army is forced to hold back, they cannot do Grozny. That is how I read it. The Syrian government also seems to have become more PR conscious. It seems to partly work on the documented atrocity scale. In the above link of the US amabassador he explicitly states
“For that reason, the international community is enhancing the capacity of Syrian and international organizations to document grave abuses. Multilaterally supported initiatives such as the Syrian Justice and Accountability Center (syriaaccountability.org) will coordinate efforts to research and collect evidence of human rights violations for use in future Syria-led transitional justice processes. These include truth-telling, reconciliation, and secure evidence documentation to support potential prosecutions, all bringing to light those who bear responsibility for these acts. ”
I do not think the rebels are militarily successful, my way of measurement is where Al Jazeera reports from, at present they seem to be stuck in Aleppo province and pro regime reporters are embedded with the Syrian army in Aleppo …

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2012 16:06 utc | 86

“Hu bris’ pointing out contradictory postings about Syria that he SHOWS to be highly suspect is a good read.”
that may be but Claudio is still p’d off about events in the past so he feels the need to appoint himself spokesperson and set himself up in opposition to almost any opinion I post here. Which is a bit lame tbh. Not my fault he’s so emotionally attached to ‘Occupy’ is it?
But anyway regarding you point, that’s the major difference between myself and certain others here – I generally provide evidence for what I say or else present it as just my opinion.
Certain others do not, and slip in mere opinion, or often blatant lies and propaganda as if it were fact

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 16:11 utc | 87

“press tv is full of psychological warfare”
Chutzpah, thy name art “some bloke, caught frequently bullshitting, posting at MOA under the name of ‘somebody'”

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 16:13 utc | 88

you can ignore it or not, I don’t really care

doesn’t look like it, from your multiple responses
an example of your trollish or simply immature ways:

STILL have not got over the whole ‘Occupy’ thing, eh?

as far as I’m concerned, we simply have a disagreement over that (just one of many I had with many people here over many issues, including b); you think you won something? maybe because I left you the last word?

you’ve appointed yourself spokesman for ‘everyone here’

nope; I wouldn’t dare say what “everyone here” thinks; I said that “everyone here” knows by himself what to look out for;

setting yourself up in opposition to everything I say

lil’ poor victim … actually I agree with most of the things you say, when you are on topic;
what’s really wearing and out of place is the way you pick on people, try to place labels on them (“lefties”, etc), and other immature traits of yours;

Posted by: claudio | Aug 1 2012 17:11 utc | 89

Commenter ‘somebody’ #81 gave us a link to US ambassador to Syria Robert Ford on 27 Jul 2012 saying the Syrian government has committed abhorrent crimes: http://blogs.state.gov/index.php/site/entry/syria_ford_2012_0726 . I agree with ‘somebody’ that the USA is not going to climb down from that position next year or any year.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Aug 1 2012 17:40 utc | 90

@thirsty #79

Hu bris’ pointing out contradictory postings about Syria that he SHOWS to be highly suspect is a good read

Hu bris already pointed it out at length on another thread; each one of us has had the opportunity to make up his mind about the matter; reopening it again now was completely gratuitous

Posted by: claudio | Aug 1 2012 17:42 utc | 91

claudio – you and your other leftist comrade bevin as well as that other lefty guru-in-his-own-mind seem to have an obvious bee in your bonnet about what I post, – but there’s really no need to hijack this thread and drag it totally off topic in the manner that both you and bevin have, making it all about what you like and don’t like.
My comments on the propaganda and lies that the person posting as ‘somebody’ indulges in were as on-topic and relevant as much of the other commentary in this thread until both you and bevin decided to de-rail the thread by making sure that everyone lese simply HAD to hear your latest rants on the subject of “why us lefties dislike Hu Bris”
I get it, claudio – your leftist sensibilities have been offended by my earlier comments on other threads about occupy and also those on the Russian revolution. At this stage anyone that has followed those arguments can plainly see that it is mainly you and several of your leftist comrades that seem to get your knickers in a twist over my opinions. Well tough titty. If you want to maintain an anal-retentive level of control over comments, then perhaps you should start you own website. That way you’ll never have to read anything you might disagrree with.
“Hu bris already pointed it out at length on another thread; each one of us has had the opportunity to make up his mind about the matter; reopening it again now was completely gratuitous”
nope – I spotted a new Press TV story that made it all quite relevant once again. that you hold a different opinion is immaterial.
Now, maybe can you cease with the “White Knight Fearless defender of Leftie-ism” pose and let the thread get back on topic? because I’m pretty sure there’s plenty here that are tired of your little vendetta brought on by your obviously hurt feeling regarding my comments on the uselessness of Occupy

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 17:59 utc | 92

I kinda remember the shower promised to pissing olympic contestants, looking forward to it ^^

Posted by: rototo | Aug 1 2012 18:06 utc | 93

@Hu Bris – you are again on the verge of getting banned.
This is a quite old blog and most folks here know their way around than you do.
Now stop attacking each and every poster for mere semantics.

Posted by: b | Aug 1 2012 18:11 utc | 94


The US has the choice to let Syria disintegrate or ensure Assad remains in power. They would prefer a Syrian military coup. I do not think they will get that.

I tihnk you hit the nail on the head there, dude.
@ 59
A pissing contest I actually enjoy. heh

Posted by: Alexander | Aug 1 2012 18:12 utc | 95

Fuck off Hu Bris and come back when you are in a better mood or sobered up.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Aug 1 2012 18:12 utc | 96

@FB Ali That assumes that the foreign supporters control (or can control) the insurgency. This is probably likely in the case of the FSA and the SNC etc, but it will not work with the AQ jihadis.
The foreign supporters can cut off the weapon and money flow, or at least most of it. That would soon leave the insurgency without sufficient defensive means. The U.S. could tell the Turks to close the border. It could tell the Gulf states to stop the weapon runs.
also
I don’t think the Russians showed much expertise in urban warfare in Grozny. They just leveled the city, block by block.
The second time they did it was, in my view, quite well done. Unfortunately there is little one can do in urban warfare that is not destructive. How does one defeat snipers in highrises without losing lots of men?

Posted by: b | Aug 1 2012 18:12 utc | 97

‘British-born jihadists fighting Assad in Syria’ – captured photographer

“One of the black jihadists freaked out and shouted: ‘These are journalists and now they will see we are preparing an international jihad in this place.'” Oerlemans told NRC Handelsblatt newspaper. He said that none of the fighters was Syrian.
“They all claimed they came from countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh and Chechnya and they said there was some vague ’emir’ at the head of the group.”
About 40 per cent of the militants spoke English. In fact, several apparently talked with recognizable regional British accents, from Birmingham and London.

almost as if they were over-acting a little – “hamming it up” might be the best description
this bit’s quite interesting

The two photographers suspected that a ransom would be demanded for their release and tried to escape. Oerlemans was shot twice in the leg during the failed attempt and Cantlie, who has so far not spoken to any media, was wounded in the arm.

given that he’s quite the l;ittle self-promoter, why is Cantile STILL refusing to speak to the media? His silence in the immediate aftermath was understandable, but given that’s, from reading the contents of his blog, he’s quite obviously a very willing cheap propagandist that the MSM employs to create their preferred manufactured realities
Perhaps he’s had his own little ‘Damascene Conversion’?
Somehow I doubt it, but maybe I’m just too cynical 🙂

Posted by: Hu bris | Aug 1 2012 18:15 utc | 98

mqBiklett @61 – very interesting thought.

Posted by: b | Aug 1 2012 18:34 utc | 99

Ambassador Crocker, nearing retirement:
“I worry greatly that the minorities, the Alawis and the Christians, are going to be in for a very awful time,” he said, adding that he fears as well that if Muslim hard-liners take over, “the repercussions for Syria, for Lebanon and Iraq, I think, can be pretty serious.” –NYTimes

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 1 2012 18:47 utc | 100