Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 11, 2012

Syria: SNC Convinces Russia To Increase Help For Assad

The exile Syrian National Council was invited to Moscow and when there tried to convince the Russian of their cause. The way they did it shows a grotesque and amateurish stupidity.

Russia needs to understand that the conflict in Syria is not a dispute between the opposition and regime but a revolution, the chief of the main exiled opposition group said in Moscow on Wednesday.

“The events in Syria are not disagreements between the opposition and the government but a revolution,” Syrian National Council (SNC) chief Abdul Basset Sayda told Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, comparing the events in his country to the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991.

To set fall of the Soviet Union, which wasn't caused by revolution but by the wrangling within the political leadership, as an example for Syria's future will have convinced all Russians to double their effort to stand by the Syrian government. Here is why:

Speaking to the nation in his annual address, Putin used some of his strongest language to describe his country's fate over the past 14 years.

"The collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the century," Putin said. "For the Russian people, it became a real drama. Tens of millions of our citizens and countrymen found themselves outside Russian territory. The epidemic of disintegration also spread to Russia itself."

That the fall of the Soviet Union was a catastrophe is not only Putin's opinion:

"It is very clear that for the great majority of Russian people, the disintegration of the Soviet Union was a personal catastrophe," [Boris] Kagarlitskii[, the director of the Institute of Globalization Studies in Moscow,] said. "It was also a catastrophe for a tremendous majority of people in Tajikistan, quite a lot of people in Uzbekistan, and so on, including many people in Ukraine. Because families were divided, people's lives were ruined, living standards collapsed, the minimal standards of human justice, and very often of freedom, were also neglected."

That is indeed also the likely the perspective for the majority of Syrians should the western sponsored insurgency win.

To remind the Russians of that is the most dumb thing the SNC chief could have done in Moscow. Putin's support, and that of the Russian people, for the Syrian government may well increase after this SNC lecture.

Posted by b on July 11, 2012 at 15:35 UTC | Permalink

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That`s a great post. I like the tenor between the lines. And indeed, I guess it is true. ;-) Thank you very much for all your objective posts and thoughts.

Posted by: Souri | Jul 11 2012 15:56 utc | 1

A blogger with al-Jazeera admits that Hillary Clinton's "rebels" are criminals:

"Those who were carrying guns at that time would become the core of what was later known as the Free Syrian Army (FSA). For the most part, this group was comprised of civilians who had some military or weapons experience and some who had, in their past, committed criminal offenses."

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blog/under-siege-syrian-diary/rebels-are-no-angels

Posted by: Antifo | Jul 11 2012 15:57 utc | 2

The SNC is irrelevant on the ground if they cannot control the funding of the FSA or get international support for intervention or even recognition as the representatives of Syria and I suppose they can neither of these things.

Another point is how cohesive / competitive for funds the FSA is, I guess the strategy of the Syrian government now is to strike individual deals with people on the ground.

Russia and China have drawn a line, they are not going to change that, no matter what the SNC says or does. Russia presumably has more information on Syria than the expatriate SNC has:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/news/world/russias-ties-to-syria-are-familial-as-well-as-political-643002/?print=1

"But there is also a human factor, set in motion 50 years ago when social ties were forged among young people who met in college. Walk into any government ministry or corporate headquarters in Syria and you will almost certainly find men who spent their 20s in Russia; many brought home wives and raised children in Russian-speaking households.

"They are wives of the elite, who can have some influence, but it's a soft influence," said Nina Sergeyeva, who until recently led an organization of Russian expatriates from her home in Latakia. "The elite of Syria, the men, are very oriented toward Russia."

As the conflict in Syria continues to defy a diplomatic solution, there are an estimated 30,000 Russian citizens living there, most of them women and children, Russian government officials estimate. This is an issue that Moscow has confronted before in the Middle East, when the collapse of Soviet-allied governments left Russian citizens stranded. But it has not faced anything on these proportions, or in the age of social media, when the plight of ethnic Russians could prove a serious embarrassment to Moscow.

"Based on the experience of evacuation from Lebanon and Palestine in recent years, problems always arise -- though there, we weren't talking about thousands or tens of thousands of people, but several hundred," said Moscow political analyst Yelena Suponina, a Middle East specialist. The task of evacuating Russians from Syria, she said, "would be 100 times worse."

The Russian population in Syria is the result of an experiment begun in 1963, when the socialist Baath Party came to power. The Soviets provided education to top students from Asia, Africa and Latin America, throwing them together with Soviet classmates in work brigades and "evenings of friendship."

The goal was to forge a global, pro-Soviet intellectual elite; the immediate result was weddings. Young women emigrated as the wives of doctors, professors and officials; "the Soviet side said farewell to them and essentially gave them up for lost," said historian Natalya Krylova, who has published widely on Russian populations in Africa.

Syrian-Russian unions were especially common -- and not just for geopolitical reasons, husbands and wives said in interviews. Many Syrian men felt genuinely transformed by their time in Russia; they also sought to avoid paying a bride-price, as is customary in the Middle East.

Mahmoud al-Hamza, who met his wife, Nadezhda, in a Moscow park in 1971, said that in order to marry a Syrian, "you need an apartment, you need to pay money, you need to buy gold -- and for a Russian woman, you just need a wedding ring."

A Russian consular official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said about 9,000 Russians have officially registered with the embassy, though upward of 30,000 citizens are believed to be in Syria. He said there are no plans for evacuation, but said that if the need arose, buses would be sent to cities to transport Russian citizens to safety."


Posted by: somebody | Jul 11 2012 16:27 utc | 3

Taliban victory in Afghanistan comes ever closer: Ahramonline: VIDEO: Taliban publicly execute woman accused of adultery near Kabul:

A man Afghan officials say is a member of the Taliban shot dead a woman accused of adultery in front of a crowd near Kabul, a video obtained by Reuters showed, a sign that the austere Islamist group dictates law even near the Afghan capital.

Even if the video is a fabrication, this shows the puppet Afghan government cannot deny the reality of Taliban control near Kabul.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 11 2012 16:33 utc | 4

New York Times reports disturbances in Shiite northeast of Saudi Arabia. And the reporter gets his information from social networking sites, despite Saudi government denials. Angry Throngs at a Funeral in Saudi Arabia:

CAIRO — Thousands of people attended a funeral in Saudi Arabia on Tuesday for a man killed during protests in a restive region of the country’s Eastern Province, a show of popular anger that came amid fears of a renewed crackdown on dissent.

Videos posted on social networking sites on Tuesday night showed an avenue filled with rows of chanting mourners. Other videos showed youths throwing incendiary devices at what appeared to be a police car, and rocks at a government building.

Activists said the man, Muhammed el-Filfil, had been protesting the shooting and arrest on Sunday by government security forces of a prominent Shiite cleric in the Qatif region. Mr. Filfil was one of at least two people killed when security forces fired live ammunition at the protesters in the village of Awamiya, the activists said. A government official denied that any such clash had occurred.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 11 2012 16:35 utc | 5

US ambassador is the new dictator of Yemen

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=22804

Posted by: nikon | Jul 11 2012 17:06 utc | 6

Syria's ambassador to Iraq defects:

Nawaf al-Fares, who was closely linked to the security establishment, would be the first senior Syrian diplomat to defect. He is from Deir al-Zor in eastern Syria, the scene of a ferocious military onslaught by Assad's forces.

"This is just the beginning of a series of defections on the diplomatic level. We are in touch with several ambassadors," said Mohamed Sermini of the main exiled opposition group, the Syrian National Council (SNC).

The defection of Fares, a Sunni Muslim in a power structure dominated by members of Assad's minority Alawite sect, related to Shi'ite Islam, dealt a serious blow to the authoritarian leader who has been in power since 2000.

Fares' move followed the high profile flight abroad of General Manaf Tlas, who had been a close friend of Assad and a leading light among Sunni supporters of the president.

The uprising is being waged by rebels largely from Syria's Sunni majority.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/07/11/syria-iraq-ambassador-idINDEE86A0C720120711

Posted by: www | Jul 11 2012 17:11 utc | 7

www @7 . . . you forgot to quote the most important part of the story:

"Syrian opposition sources said on Wednesday."

And then you forgot to add "ha ha ha ha ha ha" or a "not this again?"

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 11 2012 17:39 utc | 8

We still haven't even see whether the last guy to allegedly defect, Manaf Tlass, is even alive.

Here's part of the statement that Josh Landis claims was issued on behalf of Tlass and seems "genuine" to him (ha):

Thus, because I was in complete opposition with the unjustified violence and crimes committed by Assad’s regime in the past months, I was progressively dismissed from my place of duty in the armed forces.
Today, I call for all my comrades in armed forces, whatever their rank in the hierarchy, who are dragged into this fight against their Syrian fellows and against their own ideals, to end supporting this regime. . . . In the coming days, I will make a statement on my motives and the possibilities that the future offers me."

So these people pushing the defection story are trying to tell us this guy issues a statement alleging the "regime" was committing crimes and asking for soldiers to defy their orders . . . yet he never shows his face and just disappears? Bullshit.

And all we hear about him is from sketchy "opposition" figures (i.e. terrorists in employ of the U.S./West) and a vague statement from a French diplomat and this sketchy "statement" printed on Josh Landis' blog?

Yeah, cause if there's one way for a Middle Eastern General to defect it's to have his communique sent to a nutty professor in the American Mid West! That seems credible folks. Yep. That's the story your media and government is peddling. Maybe Tlass got confused and thought the American Midwest (Missouri) was a lot closer to the Middle East than he realized?

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 11 2012 17:49 utc | 9

Instead of printing these stories from "opposition sources," who have been caught lying so repeatedly that it is serious malpractice for any journalist to even think about using them as sources, why not print my stories? My stories have actually turned out to be much more true than the stories you see in the western media.

Here's my story of what happened:

The Syrian ambassador was on his way to a high level meeting that turned out to be a trick. His 10 guards were killed in an ambush and he was kidnapped by terrorists in the employ of the U.S./NATO/Israel. He was taken to a safe house and tortured. He was told that there has already been communications sent out that he "defected" and that he has two options: 1) defect, or 2) die a terrible death and then have his family killed/tortured. The West controls the media and the terrorist "opposition" sources and they already have a system in place to spread these lies. The ambassador is shown this false propaganda printed in the western press and he is genuinely confused that the killing of his guards and his abduction have been hidden from the news and this completely false story planted! He becomes despondent and considers taking the millions of dollars the terrorists are offering him to "defect."

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 11 2012 18:00 utc | 10

Walter, why doesn't the general make a short appearance on Syrian state tv to disprove the story of his defection? The story of the general's defection is also reported in the pro-Syrian regime al-Akhbar. So there shouldn't be any doubts left about this story.

As to the ambassador, it's being reported that he's already in Irbil, Kurdistan.

Posted by: www | Jul 11 2012 18:14 utc | 11

Walter, Landis is in Oklahoma, not Missouri.

Posted by: www | Jul 11 2012 18:19 utc | 12

www,

Faulty logic.

1. I'm not saying he go on Syrian state television but simply go on television. Or hold a press conference. The Western backed terrorists have filmed other defections so why wouldn't this one be filmed? I would think he would want to prove that he's alive because I'm surely not the only one that has questioned whether he was abducted, no?

2. I don't trust the internet or any media anymore. Let this sink in: I suspect our government is censoring what we see. I believe they may be hijacking media sources in the region, like with SANA and FARS and maybe even al-Akhbar. You've seen my argument about the curious incidents and why I think these sources were hijacked. I think I make a very LOGICAL point and I know you saw these arguments but here you are pretending not ever to have seen them.

3. The al-Akbar article, that I linked to at Penny's blog, is not definitive. It confirms that Tlass was not included in this new government, but it does not include direct evidence that he defected: http://english.al-akhbar.com/blogs/sandbox/syrian-general-manaf-tlass-neither-here-nor-there It's quite possible the Syrians have been tricked into thinking Tlass defected or simply went AWOl as Sharmine Narwani writes (and btw, out of all the journalists covering Syria I am inclined to believe her the most--but remain skeptical of all and acknowledge that she too could be compromised). I don't doubt he was on the outs with Assad. But does this mean he defected? Maybe this is why he became a target of the terrorists because at least he had a probable story of defection.

But it's not so probable now that the weeks go by without seeing him alive.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 11 2012 18:29 utc | 13

Why should they react to those stories? No reporter claims to have to tried to contact them.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 11 2012 18:29 utc | 14

Walter, Asaad Abu Khalil that dislikes both sides in the Syrian conflict discusses the general's defection in al-Akhbar:

http://english.al-akhbar.com/blogs/angry-corner/manaf-tlass-defects


Somebody, about the missing general, the Syrian regime has a history of making people vanish. It seems that the man has fallen out of grace a few weeks ago and relieved of his military duties.

Posted by: www | Jul 11 2012 19:19 utc | 15

www @ 15,

As I'm sure you know, I suspect Asaad Abu Khalil, the 'Angry Arab,' is a perp.

I don't trust a word he writes. In fact, it's wise to assume he's lying and is up to no good.

The fact he claims 'both sides' are bad simply makes me distrust him more; this seems to be the same modus operandi of other similar perps, Joshua Landis and Juan Cole, an alleged CIA asset. This fake equivalence between the Syrian government and the insurgents is a trick all three amigos use.

These guys seem very similar to me--like they're working off the same play book. The three amigos. The nutty professors.

All three are in a total tizzy re Syria. And I guess I am too . . . but I want the truth and no war and these finks are using their power to foment war.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 11 2012 19:33 utc | 16

Actually, the three amigos might be a more appropriate moniker than I intended: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUTl8DSYUQA

Three old-fashioned actors are employed to help with a military effort and end up engaging in a psy op, although they weren't aware it was a psy op at the time. Ha.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 11 2012 19:53 utc | 17

It does not matter, obviously the opposition is trying to artificially create the impression of momentum when it is clear that without military intervention the rebels cannot win.

I guess that the Russian expert Al Jazeera quotes is right

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/topic/syria-153

"I would agree with them. I, here in Moscow, don't see much basic change in the Russian position on Syria. Of course, there are different actual positions in Russia. There are some people who say the regime of al-Assad is doomed and we should sort of begin to hedge our bets. Others believe he still has a good chance of suppressing the opposition. But the basic (position) has not changed and it's supporting 'The Annan Plan', which, basically, from the Russian point of view is a kind of compromise ha would keep in power, more or less, the present Syrian military and intelligence community with which Russia has very close relationships.

But is keeping Assad himself in power crucial to Russia? Not so, said Felgenhauer:

There has been talk that we can agree with the disappearance, so to say, of Assad himself. Because for Russia it's much more important, not Bashar al-Assad, per se, but the military intelligence, the leadership with which our military and intelligence people have been working for many decades, since the Cold War... that there should be some kind of peaceful compromise that would more or less keep the same establishment in power. Maybe to some extent like Egypt."

Posted by: somebody | Jul 11 2012 20:18 utc | 18

re 16

As I'm sure you know, I suspect Asaad Abu Khalil, the 'Angry Arab,' is a perp.
I don't trust a word he writes. In fact, it's wise to assume he's lying and is up to no good.
The fact he claims 'both sides' are bad simply makes me distrust him more;

That's quite wrong. The 'Angry Arab' is a commentator such as he is.

Posted by: alexno | Jul 11 2012 21:33 utc | 19

"Asaad Abu Khalil, the 'Angry Arab,' is a perp.

I don't trust a word he writes. In fact, it's wise to assume he's lying and is up to no good.

The fact he claims 'both sides' are bad simply makes me distrust him more; this seems to be the same modus operandi of other similar perps, Joshua Landis and Juan Cole, an alleged CIA asset."

There is, on the face of it, by which I mean by reading their published commentary, an enormous difference between them.
Cole is, whether paid or not, a CIA asset, clearly promoting the policies of the US government. Asad appears to have a very different view of the world, and the conflict in Syria.

It is foolish to pretend otherwise.

As to the charge that Asad is "a perp" (whatever that means) let us have some evidence. And disgust with the Syrian regime does not count: it is perfectly legitimate to oppose the baathists, whose record of cowardice is appalling, while taking the view that imperialism and its agents should keep their snouts, and special forces, out of Syria.

In this conflict the forces attacking Syria are the enemy. The Angry Arab would agree with that, so would most Syrians, and Arabs generally. To require opponents of imperialism to support the baathist regime benefits nobody except the imperialists who delight to see their enemies squabbling among themselves.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 11 2012 22:48 utc | 20

nice post, b

interesting to hear Putin's take on 1991

maybe the SNC chief would have had better luck citing 1989 ...

Posted by: claudio | Jul 11 2012 22:54 utc | 21

I have to agree with bevin. The Angry Arab says a lot of things that annoy me, but by and large he has written very well. The Bahrain uprising is prominently featured in his blog. He is a huge critic of the Saudi government and spends a lot of time attracting attention to the current protests (You almost NEVER see perps critical of KSA. In fact that is probably the best litmus test for identifying perps. If they stay clear of KSA, they're likely riding on someone's gravy train)

His refusal to give any credit to the role Syria plays in resistance can be tiresome. But it is not uncommon. I speak to many in the Arab world who are vehemently anti-Assad (not nearly all by any means but definitely some). They can't all be perps.

He is also very anti-religion which causes him to constantly criticize the Iranian government. Also very annoying but it doesn't make him a perp.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 11 2012 23:41 utc | 22

re #21. I was going to suggest 1917 might be a better comparison but Putin even has harsh words for Bolsheviks...

http://rt.com/politics/putin-accuses-bolsheviks-treason-877/

Posted by: dh | Jul 12 2012 0:00 utc | 23

This is a video showing the Syrian ambassador announcing his defection. It looks genuine, so was Adnan Bakkour's defection video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EZ6Jxeea1g&feature=player_embedded

Posted by: zoo | Jul 12 2012 1:35 utc | 24

I have the same feelings towards both sides of the conflict, does it make me a perp? Although now an atheist, Asaad's abnormally deep displeasure with the Saudis and Qataris must be rooted in his Shia past, but he's certainly no CIA agent.

Posted by: www | Jul 12 2012 3:36 utc | 25

Bashar al-Haraki of the SNC, accuse Kofi Annan of not differenciating between the aggressor and the victim, and trying to suck up to Iran. "People are furious, the envoy is clearly biased. What has he accomplished? Nothing, except more blood." (Source: NRK)

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 12 2012 4:38 utc | 26

The collapse of the Soviet Union was a capitalist counter revolution, just like the Syrian National Council represents the forces of counter revolution.

Posted by: nikon | Jul 12 2012 5:07 utc | 27

www, you can be displeased with Saudi and Quataris with a Christian past, or with a Sunni past, accidentally sitting on oil should not give people any kind of influence ....

Sure the SNC is furious about Kofi Annan as he tries to stop the fighting and if the fighting stops the SNC will be left with nothing. The SNC will be left with nothing though anyway.

The SNC must have been completely stupid to bring up any event in Russian history as they were talking to people who had been part of the system all their lifetime. There is no new political elite in Russia, there is a nouveau riche business elite, but the political elite won the power fight with them.

The nomenclatura system meant the communist party controlled all business activities as business leaders had to be party members and were nominated by the party. That was economically inefficient and it has changed. You can call that capitalist counter revolution. Lenin considered the revolution to have failed anyway when Germany did not follow suit, as according to theory capitalism had to develop the economy first before the working class could take over. As happened it was the communists who had to industrialize Russia.

Russia basically ran a very diverse empire they could not dominate economically. Gorbatchev also figured out that the cold war did not work for them. That was the reason for the collapse. They are back and now the US is running a cold war they will not be able to win.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 12 2012 6:37 utc | 28

Somebody, I used the word "abnormally" to make the very distinction you are talking about. I'm equally displeased by the conduct of those sitting on the oil, but not to the point where my aversion has become abnormal or phobic as with the other person. You said of the former Soviets that their nomenclatura system meant the communist party controlled all business activities as business leaders had to be party members and were nominated by the party. The same could be said about the Baathist socialist party and what the whole Syrian rumble is all about that not many on this board have yet grasped. Most Moonies here still think it's simply a battle between the good Assad guys and the Western-sponsored bad guys. A new constitution with new equality principles was quickly drafted and thrown to the people in pretty much the same backhanded manner as the $140 billion socio-economic package was thrown at the Saudis to shut them up. But if you look beyond the veneer of these 2 gift horses, nothing has really changed anywhere in either country. The Baathist continue occupying all positions of merit and dishing out favors to party loyalists and the Saudis keep clobbering people that are of the wrong religion. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Posted by: www | Jul 12 2012 7:21 utc | 29

I do not consider it abnormal to insist that Saudis and Quataris are a bad influence in the Mideast and beyond when they use their money to promote the most extreme, backward and intolerant parts of Islam that would never have left their borders without this money and US backing ...
I think the Angry Arab has quite an important role in telling that to US people who care when the rest of the US media thinks Saudis and Quataris are cute.
The Angry Arab does not have a go at Sunnis he has a go at reactionary religious people.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 12 2012 7:45 utc | 30

e.g. he had a series on Sistani ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 12 2012 7:45 utc | 31

The collapse of the Soviet Union was a capitalist counter revolution, just like the Syrian National Council represents the forces of counter revolution.

Actually the ESTABLISHMENT of the Soviet Union was a Capitalist Revolution

It was Wall Street bankers such a Jacob Schiff and JP Morgan that helped finance the Bolsheviks - from as early as 1905 - to me it appears that they were intent on destroying Russia - and they managed it too once the Bolsheviks got into power they destroyed Russian society and it's intelligensia

Schiff also financed at least one 5 yr plan, which was followed immediately by the annilation of from anywhere between 5 Million and 12 Million Ukranians

in 1918 a governor of the recently created Federal Reserve actually travelled to Russia, under the guise of a Red Cross Mission, to supply the Bolsheviks with One Million dollars

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 8:31 utc | 32

Armed gangs force Syrians to protest against government: Locals
Post Categories: Mid-East
Press TV | Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 21:02 Beijing
Locals in the retaken Syrian village of al-Haffeh in the Latakia Province say armed gangs forced them to protest against the government.
The residents of the al-Haffeh village told a Press TV correspondent that life has returned to normal in the village following the success of the Syrian army to clear it from armed groups.
“Armed men sabotaged nearly everything here in al-Haffeh. They burned electricity services building and the village’s directorate. They sabotaged security installations. But, Thank God, after the army entered the village, security was restored. The residents also started to come back to their homes. The armed men also used to attack the civilians, threaten them and force them to protest against their will,” a resident said.
At the request of the residents, the army took back the northwestern town of al-Haffeh from terrorists after heavy fighting. Armed groups attacked civilians and burned down and sabotaged public and private properties there.
Various weapons and uniforms belonging to the militants were confiscated by the Syrian army. Some of the weapons were reportedly Israeli-made and the uniforms were those of the Jordanian military.
The unrest in Syria began in March 2011. Many people, including security forces, have been killed in the turmoil.
The West and the Syrian opposition accuse the government of killing the protesters, but Damascus blames “outlaws, saboteurs, and armed terrorist groups” for the unrest, insisting that it is being orchestrated from abroad.
http://www.4thmedia.org/2012/06/19/armed-gangs-force-syrians-to-protest-against-government-locals/

Posted by: brian | Jul 12 2012 8:37 utc | 33

A Lonergan @HarryOrmond
@ShoebridgeC @MiaFarrow One Christian girl raped by 20 FSA as warning to other Christians to get out - but Women Under Siege prob don't care
A Lonergan @HarryOrmond
@ShoebridgeC @MiaFarrowReport said "found no reports of members of the Free Syrian Army attacking women" outrageous!

Posted by: brian | Jul 12 2012 8:38 utc | 34

clueless or part of the plot against syria? 'Anonymous' attacks Syrian Electronic Army, assad and syrians....Anon only ends up serving USrael./saudi/ islamic terrorists...

is this the real 'anon'? or are they really as badly informed at this youtube suggests?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukdXZzDGByc&feature=plcp

Posted by: brian | Jul 12 2012 8:39 utc | 35

clueless or part of the plot against syria?

How about "BOTH!"?

anonymous suppossedly evolved loosely from a site called 4chan. Anyone can go there and plant seeds/ ideas or leak something if they like.

CIA could/can/does easily infiltrate.

It's a puerile site full of kids making in jokes, some with hacker skills.

It helps to try and remember that half of them are probably just a bunch of young kids with no deep understanding of what is really going on in world events. They see the so called arab spring as "the revolution", people trying to get freedom from their oppressive governments. Yay!

then they hop onboard and start hacking.

Reality is often somewhat more cynical and nuanced and the naive optimism of such "script kiddies" can easily be co-opted.

the problem is that since it's ALL anonymous no one knows who makes up the mob on any given 'mission' - and few if any really know who calls the missions and what THEIR real agenda might be - so CIA - or Insert-3-letter-Acronym-of-your-choice-here - infiltration IS a given

But most of them are probably what Stalin would have described as 'useful idiots'

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 8:46 utc | 36

>>> I think the Angry Arab has quite an important role in telling that to US people who care when the rest of the US media thinks Saudis and Quataris are cute.>>>

It's more about him telling all who would listen that Saudis and Qataris are assholes, which is just as inaccurate as the misguided belief of them being cute. He goes after everyone, small or big, miniscule or titantic with the same elephant gun. More often than not, he is right in his assessment but his crying of wolf at every little thing is putting all Arabs in a bad light. It's as if he is forever looking for things to get angry about. Maybe he needs to take up yoga.

Posted by: www | Jul 12 2012 8:49 utc | 37

Especially for Walter: Syrian Foreign Ministry just announced that the ex-ambassador of Iraq has been relieved of all his diplomatic duties and no longer has anything to do with the embassy in Baghdad.

Sorry for the bad news, Walter.

Posted by: www | Jul 12 2012 8:52 utc | 38

damn - I was betting he'd been kidnapped - oh well

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 8:54 utc | 39

Hubris, you take that Schiff story completely out of context

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Schiff

Being united to topple someone does not mean you get what you wanted once that person is toppled ....

Posted by: somebody | Jul 12 2012 10:27 utc | 40

Iraq's Foreign Ministry reported that the ex-Syrian ambassador is now in Qatar.

Posted by: www | Jul 12 2012 11:38 utc | 41

www @40

I can accept it when the facts are contrary to what I previously speculated.

But I'm not sure my scenario is wrong; I speculated that the ambassador was kidnapped and asked/forced/compelled to defect. I speculated he could have been tortured or offered money or issued threats so he would "defect."

His speech did not seem natural to me. If one accused his government of crimes and called for civil war I would imagine more anger and emotion. He seemed like he was simply doing his job and reading his statement. Like his life depended on it or he was paid, or both.

At least he's alive I guess. Can't say the same for Manaf Tlass.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 12 2012 13:30 utc | 42

The Annon group, like Assange are all part of a CIA orchestrated agitprop meant to attract the dumbest of fools into believing they're actually fighting for a just cause.fook it!

I've never been swayed by these out-of-nowhere "activist" groups..The sad part is, real young talented kids are dawned to such groups and their skills are used by those who handle them.

If they're so concerned about freedom and human rights, they'll be targeting Guantanamo and other US approved dictators all over the world..

Also, regarding the Angry Arab blog..First of all, nobody the age of that Assad guy blogs "for fun"..Even worse when he does it EVERY FREAKIN DAY...Who's paying him for such dedication? fook that, too..

He tries to cover his bias by blaming "both sides"(a nice way of saying I support one side over the other without appearing bias) but when you look carefully at his postings, he's very much part of the reactionary forces.His dream is that the rebels win and the overthrow of governments that are not approved by FUKUSI..fook that!!!

Posted by: Zico | Jul 12 2012 14:11 utc | 43

its called APARTHEID: they hate syria for its freedoms....they wlll need a brutal dictatorship to enforce this sort of apartheid regime
================================

Hiba Kelanee
“Abu Ayman” the leader of “North Idlib Falcons battalion “tells locals of the BAN imposed on any kind of dealing with the Shias in neighbouring village “al Foa’a”; they’re our enemies wherever they are. He says if anyone in this neighbourhood is caught having any kind of interaction with them, they will be turned into mince at the door of the mosque…

Hillary Clinton should and William Hague should be ashamed of themselves for supporting a sectarian army like the "FSA".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jp2V54l2kGE

Posted by: brian | Jul 12 2012 14:16 utc | 44

Brian, you shouldn't be surprise by the staunch support Hillary Clinton,William Hague and fellow traveler throw at such extremist groups. We've seen this before in Afghanistan..Back then, the same theme but different actors..They called them the "mujaheddin"(dumb Muslims fighting the white man's war in the name of religion)..To them, the end justifies the means..Not matter what the cost may be.

See, what's going on in Syria is wayyyyy beyond Assad..Assad just happens to be the convenient boogieman that everyone agrees on..Ever since Putin won the elections, the West's been trying everything to weaken Russia's sphere of influence..They started with a fake color revolution in Moscow but failed.

IF they manage to subdue Syria(which I doubt), it'll be a big blow to Russia and the encirclement of Russia will be "complete".Also they can build their rival pipeline to go round the Russian one..

If they fail in Syria, they're finished and they know it...

Posted by: Zico | Jul 12 2012 14:31 utc | 45

Dima AlMa :In this one they say “We want to exterminate all Alawites and all Shias must leave”. So apartheid seems to be a very weak word in this context. I would talk about ethnic cleansing. http://youtu.be/RLRCb1qfYwk-

Posted by: brian | Jul 12 2012 14:33 utc | 46

Sāṭeʿ ساطع ‏@sate3
Syrian journalist photographer (in the ‪#Syria‬|n Al-Thawra newspaper) Ihsan al-Bunni has been gunned down by terrorists. via @addouniatv

Posted by: brian | Jul 12 2012 14:39 utc | 47

Erdogan the Hypocrit: calling the egyptian Muslim Brotherhood: the people: says:

'Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has criticized Egypt’s ruling military council over dissolving the country’s parliament and failing to hand over power to the people.'
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/07/12/250536/turkish-pm-slams-egypts-army-council/

keep in mind.THIS same Erdogan has ignored the will of the turkish people and the will of the syrian people re his backing the insurgency in syria

Posted by: brian | Jul 12 2012 14:51 utc | 48

brian @ 50

To say Erdogan is a hypocrite is putting is mildly..The guys a complete liar..He sees himself as the New Sunni world pasha..

Not long ago he was in Egypt telling the MB to go for a secular democracy while at home, he arrested the military generals..Now he's singing a new tune.

To cover his Mavi Mamara fiasco, he's now embarked on a campaign to destroy Syria forgetting Turkey itself is not as stable as people think..

Posted by: Zico | Jul 12 2012 15:12 utc | 49

@34, Bolshevism was a Capitalist plot? That's loopy. Going to have to ask for some credible links(no Mason's, Illuminati etc, please). I got a soft spot for Ol' Vladimr Ilyich, and his Bolshie crew. But, I'm aware that almost everything I've ever believed in is false; so, do your worst.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 15:39 utc | 50

Re Tlass the NYT's is asking where he is.
I have the article linked at my place
Syria confirmed the defection of the Ambassador, which is no big deal.

But, what about that pilot that flew to Jordan?
He has yet to make an appearance anywhere that I have seen?
Anyone else?
The only picture of him the msm ever used was from a photo that was alleged to have been hanging on a wall in his house

He should be a media goldmine. Instead nothing.

Posted by: Penny | Jul 12 2012 15:50 utc | 51

@ Somebody "Hubris, you take that Schiff story completely out of context "

complete and utter bullshit - you obviously didn't even go and read the Wiki article you linked to - or more importantly have a look at it's sources - if you had you'd seen that I take that Schiff Story EXACTLY in context -

for example four source relevant to this are listed on Wiki - 1) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10F15FA...DF1D3
2 ) Jewish Communal Register of New York City, 1917-1918, Second Edition, Kehillah, New York, (1919), p. 1019
3) Steed, Henry Wickham. Through thirty years, 1892-1922: a personal narrative, Volume 2. Doubleday, Page & Company, 1924. p. 302
4) Sutton, Antony. Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development, Vol. II. Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace, Stanford University, 1973. p. 340n

ALL of them tell the same story -

nd here From the book "Jacob H. Schiff: A Study in American Jewish Leadership" By Naomi Wiener Cohen - it is stated that Schiff and George Keenan finance the disemination of Bolshevik propaganda amongst Russian soldier from as early as 1905 - the Bolsheviks had only been formed into a recognisable unit 2 years earlier - So essentially Schiff didn't just hop on a bandwaggon - he helped create it.

and also there the fact that William Boyce Thompson, a Governor of the Federal Reserve was an open promoter of Western support for the Alexander Kerensky and Bolshevik governments of Russia,

In the book "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution" By Antony C. Sutton - Chapter V - hhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/83087104/Antony-C-Sutton-Wall-Street-and-the-Bolshevik-Revolution

it states :
Acting as head of an American Red Cross mission to Russia, W.B. Thompson's contribution of $1Million to the Bolshevik cause was recorded in the contemporary American press.

The Washington Post of February 2, 1918, carried the following paragraphs:

GIVES BOLSHEVIKI A MILLION

W. B. Thompson, Red Cross Donor, Believes Party Misrepresented. New York, Feb. 2 (1918).

William B. Thompson, who was in Petrograd from July until November last, has made a personal contribution of $1,000,000 to the Bolsheviki for the purpose of spreading their doctrine in Germany and Austria.

Mr. Thompson had an opportunity to study Russian conditions as head of the American Red Cross Mission, expenses of which also were largely defrayed by his personal contributions. He believes that the Bolsheviki constitute the greatest power against Pro-Germanism in Russia and that their propaganda has been undermining the militarist regimes of the General Empires.

Mr. Thompson deprecates American criticism of the Bolsheviki. He believes they have been misrepresented and has made the financial contribution to the cause in the belief that it will be money well spent for the future of Russia as well as for the Allied cause.

Hermann Hagedorn's biography The Magnate: William Boyce Thompson and His Time (1869-1930) reproduces a photograph of a cablegram from J.P. Morgan in New York to W. B. Thompson, "Care American Red Cross, Hotel Europe, Petrograd." The cable is date-stamped, showing it was received at Petrograd "8-Dek 1917" (8 December 1917), and reads:

New York Y757/5 24W5 Nil — Your cable second received. We have paid National City Bank one million dollars as instructed — Morgan.

The National City Bank branch in Petrograd had been exempted from the Bolshevik nationalization decree — the only foreign or domestic Russian bank to have been so exempted.

Hagedorn says that this million dollars paid into Thompson's NCB account was used for "political purposes."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/83087104/Antony-C-Sutton-Wall-Street-and-the-Bolshevik-Revolution

So how exactly has ANYTHING been 'taken out of context' ??

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 16:13 utc | 52

"Being united to topple someone does not mean you get what you wanted once that person is toppled"


again complate and utter bullshit - Schiff and his co-conspiritors knew EXACTLY what they were gettting

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 16:15 utc | 53

Penny, the day after the pilot defected, it was being reported that he had already been whisked off to London. He's probably still being debriefed in the UK or the US. It was said at the time that before he did it, his family had been moved to Turkey and that he couldn't have been such a hot shot in the air force since he was flying a shitty old plane. The 2 Tlass boys' families are supposedly in Dubai. One of the Tlass daughters, Nahed, is a billionaire living in Paris and a younger daughter, Sarya, is married to a Lebanese.

Story on Nahed's wheeling and dealing from 10 years back:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2857515/The-billionaire-widow-toying-with-Cordiant.html

Posted by: www | Jul 12 2012 16:17 utc | 54

"Being united to topple someone does not mean you get what you wanted once that person is toppled"


again complete and utter bullshit - Schiff and his co-conspiritors knew EXACTLY what they were gettting - your argument above is the very same one used by apologists for the CIA creation of AlQuaida

"Oh how were WE to know that the fanatical fundemantalists were going to act all fanatical and fundamentalist??"

Seriously - how stupid do you think people are?

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 16:19 utc | 55

It also occurs to me that somebody's argument, as articulated above, is also exactly the argument used for defending NATO's backing of the psychopatic murderers that deposed Ghaddaffi and are currently destroying Libyan society

Well done, Somebody! - you're in Grrrrreat company using THAT particular argument

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 16:23 utc | 56

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12, 2012 11:39:26 AM | 52

http://www.wildboar.net/multilingual/easterneuropean/russian/literature/articles/whofinanced/whofinancedleninandtrotsky.html

Seems pretty credible that capitalists financed the Bolsheviks but the question is why? To simply fund both sides of the war? Jewish hostility toward Russia?

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 12 2012 16:33 utc | 57

"Penny, the day after the pilot defected, it was being reported that he had already been whisked off to London."

I love the circular reasoning www!

Someone asks how do we know "opposition" claims that the man defected are real? And www responds, well, the opposition says he's in London! So there.

Let me guess . .. he's probably hanging out with the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, I mean Rami Abdulrahman: http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2012/06/wests-syrian-narrative-based-on-guy-in.html

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 12 2012 16:39 utc | 58

>>> At least he's alive I guess. Can't say the same for Manaf Tlass. >>>

Walter, you're probably not wrong about what could have happened, but you're probably wrong about which party would have done it. If you've been a Syria-watcher since a few months, you wouldn't understand what I'm saying, but if you're an old hand about how things used to get done in Syria, you'd know of the regime's not so illustrious history of making people disappear. It's being said that Manaf Tlass, in spite of his defection cannot go anywhere near the FSA or any other opposition militants because of his record of vicious mistreatment of the Syrian people while he was head of the Republican Guard.

Posted by: www | Jul 12 2012 16:59 utc | 59

Walter, I didn't say the guy was in London, I said it's being said that he is. He could be anywhere, even in the US. I have no idea where he may be.

Posted by: www | Jul 12 2012 17:01 utc | 60

WWW #62

Ok , i'm getting old so i don't remember where I read this about the pilot but. I read somewhere, maybe evern on this site, the pilot was debriefed by Mossad and Jordanian intelligence who took the codes form the plane and sent them to Turkey via the CIA. The CIA then convinced Erdogan to use the code to test the Syrians on June 22 when the Turkish plane was shot down, or plunged as it was trying ot evade fire (as today's stories are telling us). So I assume the Pilot was paid off to get the code, which was tested but failed. Now the pilot and his money i guess are somewhere keeping low.

Posted by: ana souri | Jul 12 2012 17:08 utc | 61

Ana,

Syria Girl on youtube explained this theory at the time, as well as probably describing the incident more accurately than any MSM site: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o20bM4mh_c&feature=plcp

I don't think this is very likely myself, although who knows.

One thing Syrian Girl missed is that Syria itself claims they thought the jet was Israeli, indicating it might have "squawked" using Israeli code. Syria did mention the plane was on a similar flight path as previous Israeli incursions so maybe that's why they thought it was Israeli and there was no squawking at all. It's possible that it tried to squawk a Syrian code (that was stolen from the defected plane) and got it wrong so it was shot down. Or maybe the Syrians changed the code after the plane was compromised. But all this seems *off* to me and the more important factor was the fact the plane was mimicking an attack . . . a F-4 trying to feel out air defense systems.

As LVB has speculated at Penny's site, I would bet all the NATO countries have access to Israeli codes even though they pretend they are not shared.

So my top theory is the Turkish remotely-flown (!) plane was squawking Israeli codes, mimicking an attack, and doing it at the place where there were previous Israeli attacks. The Syrians shot it down as they should have and then quickly recovered the wreckage and gave it to Turkey. Then Turkey and the West lied about everything. They planted the wreckage (or lied about the location) and they planted the boots and helmets (or lied about the location). Since the plane was a drone they had someone play the grieving father and family.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 12 2012 17:21 utc | 62

To Whomever Broke the Right Margin: Thank you for being restrained enough to not make it completely impossible to read the coments easily.

Gah. And humbug.

HTML URL link tags. It's a good thing.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 12 2012 17:35 utc | 63

Oh, the other reason I doubt the stealing code motive for the pilot defection story is how important is this? I can't imagine it would give much tactical advantage to NATO.

I mean Syria doesn't have a huge air force, does it? And will they be used to intercept NATO fighters and bombers or will they be used to attack?

I'm no military expert but if I were Syria I would forget intercepting NATO fighters and try for an attack on particular targets. I would imagine sending out as many at one time as possible. Kind of a one time hit on as many targets as they can and then a mad dash home with a finger on the ejection button. Under this situation I imagine the Syrian planes would not need to identify one another.

Similarly, if NATO attacks it will probably be a massive attack. Don't know if they need fake codes to do this or if fake codes would even work. If Syria sees 10 jets screaming into its airspace there no code is going to fool them.

And even if Syria scrambled its fighters to intercept NATO fighters would the codes matter much or then is it all visual anyway?

Be interested to hear if there is a big tactical advantage though.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 12 2012 17:36 utc | 64

www@ 56


the alleged defector pilot was supposed to be given asylum, humanitarian asylum in Jordan.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/syrian-pilot-who-defected-to-jordan-can-stay-on-humanitarian-grounds-officials-say/article4359198/

which meant he got to stay in Jordan
Even if he had gone somewhere else, it has been a month and nothing.
Not a peep.
Early reports noted the pilot made an emergency forced landing in Jordan.... those reports were "clarified"

I wrote two very extensive posts on the pilot...
Anyway...bottom line, it's been almost a month, the man should have been media gold. He should have got a movie and book deal for god's sake!
Did you catch at all how that narrative was spun?
"rips his medals off" "kisses the tarmac"
Yah, sure

Instead, silence.
That makes zero sense.

Early reports presented conflicting stories on his family and even the province he was from

Posted by: Penny | Jul 12 2012 17:37 utc | 65

Russia prevented Syria from upgrading its fighter jets back in 2009 at the request of Israel: http://www.menewsline.com/article-1173,3570-Russia-Blocks-MiG-31-Deal-With-Sy.aspx

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 12 2012 17:57 utc | 66

HuBris @ 48

Indeed, If they put enough effort in to orchestrate a regimechange, they sure as hell know what's coming.

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 12 2012 18:12 utc | 67

58 even

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 12 2012 18:13 utc | 68

@ Alexander #69 and Hu Bris,

The conventional wisdom that the capitalists knew what they were buying when they bought [some?] Bolsheviks is compelling.

But there are other explanations:

1. They hated the Russians so much they were willing to empower people they hated to do this deed.

2. They had greater goals in mind (say regarding Germany) and empowering the Bolsheviks was a way to achieve that in the short term.

3. They feared the rise of socialism so they wanted to try to coopt the movement and find people within the movement they could buy off. They TRIED to buy off Marx but couldn't. Maybe someone like Trotsky was bought but turned on them? Maybe people like Trotsky justified it as a means to an end and then turned on his capitalist backers? Maybe the capitalists were able to maneuver it so they were always able to control the revolution and were able to steer the Soviet Union into the clutches of the bankers and the West.

4. They actually supported a communist/socialist agenda. Socialism is a false ideology that was created to sucker the people into giving an elite more power.

I get the feeling that a lot of my right-wing comrades are looking at this through the lens of #4. I'm more of a #3 guy, but maybe that's because I'm closer to having a socialist pov. But I really don't think these guys were earnest socialists. I think they genuinely feared socialism. But I think these were clever people and realized that sometimes the best way to fight someone is by joining them and adopting some of their rhetoric. This was a much more complicated time than I think us modern people give them credit for. I get the sense there really was a lot of international intrigue during these years. We know there were a number of global industries that colluded. It was the age of runaway corporate power.

These financial ties definitely need to be explored in more detail. Thanks Hu Bris for the link with some good information.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 12 2012 18:23 utc | 69

Donatella Rovera of Amnesty International has been appearing on just about every US public radio venue she can find, giving a one sided report of the terrible actions of the Assad government which are resisted bravely, resolutely, and ethically by the "activists," rebels, FSA.

It's wall-to-wall anti-Syrian government ("regime") program content.

Propaganda 101 -- make the enemy into a Monster, Public Enemy #1. Then, kill, kill, kill until gone. Replace with one's own monsters.

Except controlling them so very often turns out to be problematic.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 12 2012 18:32 utc | 70


line the first @ Wildboar "The top Communist leaders have never been as hostile to their counterparts in the West, as the rhetoric suggests." Whose rhetoric? The rhetoric suggests the opposite in this ear.

Anyways, not convinced. There's a strain of libertarian populism in the article. The appeal to both sides are equally bad.

Sutton: "There has been a continuing, albeit concealed, alliance between international political capitalists and international revolutionary socialists -- to their mutal benefit." Has? So it's still going on? Has someone told the FARC, Shining Path, the Naxalites?

He dedicates his book to the Greens who cursed both sides and wanted to be left alone to pursue their own tiny businesses. But those days are gone. Sorry. Bye-bye. The world is filling up and humans are pooping in each other's bath water. The Rugged Individualist, gentleman farmer, yer egoists, are not going to help things. Yep, mighty sad to see her go. But, well...

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 18:58 utc | 71

nah


They feared a powerful competitor when the Russians got around to exploiting their abundant natural resources - so in order to head that off at the pass they teamed up with the vindictive elemenets within Russian Jewry in order to destroy Russian society and their intelligentsia and they they were quite successful

"But I really don't think these guys were earnest socialists"

no one said they were - these people only care about power and the wielding of it - State communism, essentially the triumph of mediocrity, was the perfect vehicle to cripple Russia as a serious industrial and technological competitor for years after the revolution.

But when the Russians finally got their act together in the Post Stalin era they were well able to compete in terms of actual tech - their capitalist-marketing skills where obviously not as good - but prior to the digital age,their tech products were equal to, and in many cases superior to Western tech

After all Russia put a human into space well before anyone in the West could manage it - quite a lot of Russian technology was far superior to Western tech, despite the bullshit fed to you by Hollywood and the media - In the Post-Satlin era Russian Scientists and Mathematicians were equal to any in the west - in the immediate Post-Tzar era had Russia adopted the money/greed/success-driven ideology of the US, rather than the society-destroying psychopathology of the ,mainly Americanised-jewish, bolsheviks which was foisted upon them by the Corrupt financiers of the Wall Street, they would have easily surpassed US achievements in Science and Technology

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:03 utc | 72

It's like an Australian girl of my acquaintance, years ago, who said: What can ye dooey, when yer options are so fewie?

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 19:04 utc | 73

hence the need of Wall Street to sic the Bolsheviks on to russian society

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:04 utc | 74

Anyways, not convinced.

not at all surprised - the close-mindedness and lack of critical thinking of Leftists and socialists is by this stage well established - that's the problem with 'isms' - they blind you to reality

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:06 utc | 75

Indeed, If they put enough effort in to orchestrate a regimechange, they sure as hell know what's coming.

yep - any attempt to pretend otherwise is frankly not just stupid but downright dishonest

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:08 utc | 76

@77, ah, the anti-hom comes down.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 19:19 utc | 77

@76, or, hence the need for Wall Street to shackle Russia with debt. No sense leaving if for those in-bred Aristocrats.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 19:21 utc | 78

I've yet to meet a left leaning person that was able to accept any of this info - seriously it's like talking to a brick wall - their inability to process ANY of the info above is hilarious and completely predictable.

The majority of them do just as ruralito did above - stick their hands over their ears and cry "nah nah nah I can't hear you!" - this despite the fact that many of them will agree, in theory that what most people were fed in school as 'history' is complete bullshit

Show them an alternative narrative of the Russian Revolution and they become every bit as reactionary and close-minded as the most moronic right-winger one could find in fly-over country

They scramble around like headless chickens trying to find ANY reasoning or logic, no matter how pathetic, to dismiss it entirely without ever really considering it at all

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:25 utc | 79

@76, or, hence the need for Wall Street to shackle Russia with debt. No sense leaving if for those in-bred Aristocrats.

yeah ok - whatever - you keep chanting "nah Nah Nah - I can't hear you!" it's highly amusing and already predicted above

so you are maintaining that the Post-Tzar era state debt of the Russian soviets was at country-crippling levels yes?

You just pulled that outta yer ass right now, didn't ya?

go on, admit it - be honest for once

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:28 utc | 80

"...In the Post-Satlin era Russian Scientists and Mathematicians were equal to any in the west" And, what? They just appeared after Stalin died?

"in the immediate Post-Tzar era had Russia adopted the money/greed/success-driven ideology of the US, rather than the society-destroying psychopathology of the ,mainly Americanised-jewish, bolsheviks which was foisted upon them by the Corrupt financiers of the Wall Street, they would have easily surpassed US achievements in Science and Technology" This is nuts, or it's so badly written it sounds that way. You have no way of knowing any of this.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 19:31 utc | 81

hahahahaha


STILL chanting "I can't hear/ you!!!"?

well done !

For example - ask any Camera man who built the best cameras and lenses

AND Russian Space Tech for the 60's and 70's is STILL in sucessful reliable operation today, while US space tech has been shown to fail SPECTACULARLY several times

You really have been well programmed by Hollywood depictions of Russian Tech - they don't stick that stuff together with duct-tape you know. That's just in Hollywood movies, it bears no relation to reality

IMHO one of the reasons the US/NATO mobsters have been reluctant to launch an allout Air-attack on the Syrians is that they don't want the world to see how superior up-to-date Russian tech is to the highly expensive Mil-tech their bloated US military possesses - failure of US tech would be VERY bad for the US's only remaining 'profitable' manufacturing industry

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:41 utc | 82

@82, lol, when did you stop beating your wife? hmmm, hubris, eh? But saying I'm not considering your point of view is a bit of a fib. Afterall, I did seek out a readable copy of the Sutton book. Scribd didn't do if for me.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 19:45 utc | 83

after all - according to the Syrians it was Lo-Tech that brought down that turkish US-supplied jet - admittedly not the latest gen by any means - but STILL taken out by a 'mere' lo-tech machine gun - albeit one with an up-to-date guidance system

And Russian supplied lo-tech anti-tank weaponry made mince meat of the Israeli tank attack through the Sinai in (67/73?)

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:48 utc | 84

and it wasn't the US that designed and built THE most successful guerilla weapon Of ALL time - the AK-47 - superior in every way that counts, in the field, to the vastly most expensive US-Built M16

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:50 utc | 85

"@82, lol, when did you stop beating your wife? hmmm, hubris, eh?"

you really are nothing but a clueless dickhead, ain't ya? ;-)

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:51 utc | 86

I can't wait until you get around to producing the figures for the immediate Post-revolution era Soviet foreign debt - that should be a hoot

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 19:54 utc | 87

ak-47, made by Russians, right? Communist Russians, right? Kind of at cross purposes to your theme.

figures for the debt? stop waiting, start supplying.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 21:33 utc | 88

@83, "clueless dickhead" Your part right; I should have ref'd @80 where you impugned my honesty not @82 where you frothed rather well in print but kept your gratuitous insults in abeyance.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 21:43 utc | 89

you 'impugned' your own honesty when, in an misguided effort to rationalise your continued implementation of the well-known tried-and-tested "Nah nah nah i can't hear you!" strategy for the "Preservation of Pre-Programmed-ingnorance"™ you just pulled that crap about debt right outta yer ass, matey ;-)

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 22:05 utc | 90

"ak-47, made by Russians, right? Communist Russians, right? Kind of at cross purposes to your theme."

if you say so . . . . though you might wanna go back and read what i actually wrote

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 22:07 utc | 91

still waiting on those apparently crippling Soviet Debt figures for the immediate Post-rev era - let me know when you got them, eh?

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 22:08 utc | 92

"figures for the debt? stop waiting, start supplying."
sorry to break this to you but YOU were the one that referenced saddling the Russian State with Debt as the sole reason for Wall Street financing of Bolshevism, not me

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 22:11 utc | 93

actually wrote?
"State communism, essentially the triumph of mediocrity,"

"sole reason" no, just an alternative to your view. It makes sense, though. After the fall of the aristocracy in Russia, what western banker wouldn't want a piece of Mother Russia? Just the prospect of getting a hold of all that timber would have made their eyes pop. And wouldn't they just cry "Huzzah, the workers, the chains, yaddida, yaddida, now gimme some of that sweet, sweet lucre."

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 22:20 utc | 94

actually wrote,
"go on, admit it - be honest for once" That's me, impugning my own honesty?

There are splinters in the windmills of your mind.
You don't have both oars in the water.
The wind beneath you wings has ceased to blow.
The Man from Galilee has dropped your hand.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 12 2012 22:27 utc | 95

", just an alternative to your view."

not really though is it?

|You asked for sources - I actually thought for a second you had a sincere desire to learn something, silly me, so I supplied 6 and Walter gave you one - that's 7 in total

You on the other hand didn't bother to read them and instead just immediately rejected them for idiotic reasons - that you didn't bother yer ass reading them is obvious - so IMHO you're just an ignorant fool wishing to desperatly find reasons to continue to maintain his ignorance -

and everything you have written since then simply just confirms that viewpoint

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 22:34 utc | 96

I generally wouldn't mind if you just wanted to sit there quietly preserving your ignorance in it's pristine state, but when you demand sources, and when I take the time to supply them to you, instead of actually reading them, you, bonehead that you undoubtedly are, reject them out of hand for truly moronic reasons, well . . . you're just kinda askin for it, ain;t ya?

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 22:42 utc | 97

"And, what? They just appeared after Stalin died? "

yeah that's what happened, obviously. EXACTLY like you just described it - you're really very perceptive - has anyone ever told you that before - seriously - genius-level reasoning - impressive

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 12 2012 22:46 utc | 98

Hu Bris, you keep disparaging the Bolscevick revolution; of course many in the West aided it thinking it would pull Russia out of the great powers contests; then a cruel war (which killed many more than Stalin did) was unleashed on Ussr and then an embargo was declared; Monaco 1938 was the expression of this reactionary (Jews and Christians alike) policy; and everybody thought Hitler would make minced meat of the Soviet army; but as we all know the Ussr's technological achievements and organizational abilities showed well before Stalin's death; the plutonium bomb is another example;

Czarist Russia of 1917 imitating Us plutocratic, individualistic society? are you kidding?

Posted by: claudio | Jul 12 2012 23:20 utc | 99

"I've yet to meet a left leaning person that was able to accept any of this info . . . ."

Uh, Hu Bris, I hope you saw that I am a left-leaning person and I was able to accept this alternative reality . . . or am trying to make sense of it. I need more information before I can accept your interpretation (seems like it's my #4 above), but I accept the basic facts. Right now I'm leaning to #3, that the American/British/Jewish bankers financed the Bolsheviks despite their politics, not because of it.

In looking for further information it looks like I need to focus on the bankers like Morgan and Jacob Schiff, etc. It's such a long period though if we're going to take this conspiracy up to the early 90s, and involves so many people, I would be hesitant to say they all acted with the motivation to control people using statism and a fake ideology of mediocrity, i.e. socialism. More likely the capitalists simply lied, cheated, and murdered the right people. Actually, they probably started out trying to buy off the right people which is effective enough. Then they lie, cheat and steal.

It's too detailed to get into here Hu Bris, but that's an interesting history of tech re the Soviet Union and I think MY EXPLANATION, (#3), explains how the West was able to steal much of this technology. For e.g., I think we've talked about the history of Oracle and the Soviet databases before . . .

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 12 2012 23:24 utc | 100

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