Syria: A Turn In Western Media Coverage?
There seems to be slight turn in the western media coverage of Syria. Here in Germany the press has now more reports showing the "rebels" as what they really are: traveling jihadists and foreign paid rabble. Commentators on the news websites are now mostly highly critical about the usual propaganda pieces and the German government policy of supporting the SNC. There also seems to be a slight shift in international media.
Alex Thomson is in Syria for the British Channel 4. He put up a Q&A at his blog. Some excerpts:
What will happen in Aleppo?Probably what happened in Damascus – the rebels will lose.
...
But the rebels look to be doing well on TV?That’s because they are winning the propaganda war better than the real war.
...
But why is the Syrian army shelling its own people?You could just as easily ask why are the rebels using the Syrian people as human shields? It’s a dirty civil war and the rebels sometimes choose to fight in residential areas.
...
So what do Syrians want?Hard to tell. But for sure this is not Egypt – there are no Tahrir Squares or vast protests against the regime.
There is no discernible sign in any of the big cities – Homs, Aleppo and Damascus for example,that the people even wish to rise up against the regime.
On Twitter Thomson also said that there he observed no food shortage and that last weeks queues in front of gasoline stations in Damascus are now gone. For now the center certainly holds.
The Irish Times finds two Libyan born naturalized Irish guys fighting in Syria. There aim is an Islamic state:
According to Harati, who first came to Syria some 10 months ago for what he says was initially humanitarian work, the brigade emerged after Syrians approached him due to his experience as commander of the Tripoli Brigade in Libya last year. The Tripoli Brigade was one of the first rebel units into the Libyan capital last August.Liwa al-Umma is made up of more than 6,000 men, 90 per cent of whom are Syrian. The rest are mostly Libyans and other Arabs, including several who live in Ireland.
What will those "several who live in Ireland" and are now fighting Syria do once they come back home to Ireland?
The Guardian, which has since the very beginning been one of the worst propaganda outlets on Syria, is having second thoughts. Today's editorial is calling not for more war but for negotiations:
But what if Assad continues to hold on? For weeks, for months, even longer? That is why the second option, a return to diplomacy and, in particular, a new start by America and Russia in dealing with this terrible problem, cries out for consideration.
This may be a sign for a turning point in western coverage and media attitude towards the situation in Syria.
Posted by b on July 28, 2012 at 17:50 UTC | Permalink
next page »Confirm, arte (German/French has come out for the first time with a real account of the complexities plus filming a demonstration in the countryside asking to stop the fighting. Also saying that rebels in Aleppo are surrounded by the Syrian army.
Irish Mahdi al Harati has been outed as CIA asset
Something must have happened. Maybe some people in Turkey, Quatar and Saudi Arabia did get killed.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2012 18:20 utc | 2
What...there will be no photos from War Room!?
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2011/10/31/obamas-war-room
or this one
http://palestinianpundit.blogspot.com/2011/10/us-power-grab-in-africa.html
shame...
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 28 2012 18:25 utc | 3
Add: according to the article above Mahdi al Harati had been spotted on IAWM demonstrations and Irish Palestine Soidarity Campaing demonstrations
Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2012 18:26 utc | 4
New York Times: Syrian Rebels Free 2 Journalists After Weeklong Ordeal With Islamic Extremists
Two foreign journalists captured by Islamic extremists in Syria and held for a week were rescued by Syrian opposition fighters, one of them said on Friday...Mr. Oerlemans said their captors apparently included no Syrian fighters, but instead jihadists from Bangladesh, Britain, Chechnya and Pakistan...“They were only foreign jihadis; I don’t think there was one Syrian among them,” Mr. Oerlemans said...“They were definitely quite extreme in their religious beliefs,” he said. “All day we were spoken to about the Koran and how they would bring Shariah law to Syria. I don’t think they were Al Qaeda; they seemed too amateurish for that. They said, ‘We’re not Al Qaeda, but Al Qaeda is down the road.’”...
Posted by: Frank | Jul 28 2012 18:31 utc | 5
I watched the "heute" news at 7 pm, and for the first time there were interviews with threatened Shiite families whose relatives had been decapitated by rebels. There was talk about frightened Christians, about the will to leave the countries if the rebels gain the upper hand. What I'm wondering is: Is it just spin, or do the media admit that the West's aspirations have failed?
Posted by: m_s | Jul 28 2012 18:32 utc | 6
there is this tweet by alex thomson which seems to indicate that maybe politicians did not recognize their own spin coming back to them ... :-))
alex thomson @alextomo
@BurndtOutWard thanks - but please- there is no siege of Aleppo. There isn't even fighting in most of Aleppo
Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2012 18:42 utc | 7
Western world has been is "damage mode" long ago, since episode with RF-4E.
When they are faced with minimum of retaliation they back down. Since with episode with the Phantom what colonialists are doing is, they are trying to inflict as much damage as possible to Syria's infrastructure and population as possible. Or...to sufffer:
O’Brien: “The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. … The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. … How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?”Winston: “By making him suffer.”
O”Brien: “Exactly, by making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own. Power is inflicting pain and humiliation. … Do you begin to see the kind of world we are creating? … Always there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. … If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.”
-– From George Orwell’s 1984
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 28 2012 18:45 utc | 8
I guess, the strategy was to confuse and break the Syrian security services (assassination) and army (Manaf Tlass defection, calling for officers to defect), that has now officilly failed. There was no reason for the rebels, or backers of the rebels, to do a "Schwerpunkt" fight. The more rebels survive for another political day the better.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2012 18:46 utc | 9
WaPo, DAMASCUS, July 27 — Even as forces loyal to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad reassert control over much of Damascus, residents of the capital say they feel increasingly distant from the government . . .//
Imagine that, increasingly distant from the government. How about the U.S. where only 32% (RCP ave.) believe the country is going in the right direction?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/direction_of_country-902.html
Perhaps the Washington Post will cover that, some day.
Meanwhile, the WaPo made up some nice quotes from Damascas. "But as the rebel fighters have come and gone, people here say they feel abandoned by the rest of the world. The Syrian people are facing the tragedy on their own,' said a 62-year-old man who owns four houses in the capital but thinks none of them is safe enough to stay in."
Abandoned by the rest of the world, facing a tragedy on their own. Would a Syrian, or anybody anywhere, ever really say that? And as a matter of fact if Syria HAD been abandoned by the rest of the world there wouldn't be this ongoing tragedy that the people have to face "on their own." That's also the Russian position, I believe.
"The more rebels survive for another political day the better."
What make you think Mercenaries are going to see the light of next day? Feel free to use a word: Enemy Combatants.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 28 2012 19:05 utc | 11
This is the most dangerous time, when it becomes obvious the US is losing. The radicals will now see an opening to spout their extremist militaristic ideas at the US National Security Council, etc. with support from UK, Israel and Turkey, right in the middle of a political campaign.
11 neretva'43, what's the use of being a mercenary if you do not live to spend the money?
Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2012 19:19 utc | 13
McClatchy: Syria’s Aleppo reported tense, awaiting battle; journalists freed from extremists
Meanwhile, for the first time since the uprising against Assad began in March 2011, the presence of dozens of foreign Islamist fighters was confirmed Friday by two journalists who’d been held by a group of them near the border with Turkey for a week.Jeroen Oerlemans, a Dutch freelance photographer, told the NRC Handelsblatt newspaper that he and British photographer John Cantlie were held for a week by the group, which they accidentally encountered after they’d crossed into Syria surreptitiously from Turkey.
Oerlemans said the group of about 20 included a Pakistani who spoke English and “a number of Africans” and “many Central Asians.” He described them as “foreign jihadists.”
"One of the black jihadists freaked out and shouted: ‘These are journalists and now they will see we are preparing an international jihad in this place,’" Oerlemans told the paper.
In the days they were held, Oerlemans said, they met other foreign combatants. “We met many combatants who spoke good English, some with Birmingham accents,” he said, referring to the British city that has a large immigrant population.
Posted by: Frank | Jul 28 2012 19:38 utc | 15
"There was no reason for the rebels, or backers of the rebels, to do a "Schwerpunkt" fight"
not exactly gelling with the portrait YOU were trying to paint less than 24 hrs ago though, is it
You sure change your tune pretty quickly ;-)
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 28 2012 19:38 utc | 16
Le Temps, 24.07.12, journo Delphine Minoui interviews a few dissidents (italics = her words) in a basement of a fancy hotel in Beirut.
There are 30 of them, and they are there for a 10-day crash course.
In what? First aid and how to film videos!
Given by whom? The humanitarian organisation Avaaz!
(! .. )
They report:
- budding organization between the revolutionary councils
.. local committees or councils composed of lawyers, businessmen, etc. who mediate with the FSA
.. as in Homs which is self-governed, electricity, food and housing are organized
- some places are in the hands of the FSA who do everything
- In Ibdil, they have opened up a court and a prison, a new system of identity cards is being implemented. No torture / humiliation. The guilty are executed.
- 70% of FSA are now civilians (presumably includes her interviewees)
- The Kurds have taken over the Kurdish part (1)
- sharing power post-Assad will be horrendous, as there are so many internal divisions. The only woman in the group expresses fear re. the rise of Islamism.
1. news article: Assad hands control of Syria’s Kurdish areas to PKK, sparking outrage in Turkey
snippet: .... Assad withdrew forces last week from six predominantly Kurdish towns and handed control to the Kurdish militants in what appears to be an effort to bolster his defenses at Aleppo, which became the scene of sustained fighting last week for the first time since the anti-Assad uprising began (..) Assad also reportedly has pulled forces from the Idlib region of northeastern Syria and moved them to Aleppo in preparation for what some say will be a pitched battle for the city.
from McClatchy, on 26.07.12.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/07/26/157943/assad-hands-control-of-syrias.html
??
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 28 2012 19:43 utc | 17
"What will those "several who live in Ireland" and are now fighting Syria do once they come back home to Ireland?"
the Irish Security Services - riddled with MI5/6 om top to bottom - have no need of Muslim terrorists to help them steal the civil rights of their populace - they have the IRA for that.
So they'll probably give welcome them back with open arms and continue to provide these Terrorist psychopaths with a safe-haven until the next time Uncle Sam need some psycho mercenaries
So there'll be no fake-"Muslim terrorist" bombings or security Service inspired 'terrorist plots', as they have in Britain, unless the Irish elite suddenly decide that they want to openly join some murderous escapade of the Psychopathic Western elite in the future, and need to convince the populace that they are under threat from hairy Muslim Murderers
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 28 2012 19:52 utc | 18
I guess there is a deal
Speaking in a media interview Friday, Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov said Russia will raise no objection to the Arab-sponsored United Nations resolution on the need for a political dialogue which would lead to pro-democracy transformation in Syria.
According to Mr Gatilov, the resolution, which was tabled by a group of Arab countries and is to be debated by the UN General Assembly Monday, does not contain demands for Syrian President Bashar Assad to step down.
General Assembly resolutions are passed by a simple majority. They are not binding.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2012 19:58 utc | 19
Incidentally before I saw this brilliant thread b, I ended a post on the previous thread with this sentence: "The image of this as a Syrian uprising is profoundly changing in the mainstream nowadays, I hope I'm not the only one gathering that from the MSM news."
Posted by: Alexander | Jul 28 2012 20:02 utc | 20
Dissident groups merge to form new IRA
from the Telegraph.
Not much concerned with Islamists or ‘foreign terrorism’, whatever that is.
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 28 2012 20:06 utc | 21
Noirette, no 17, Kurdistan is a very small part of Syria but a huge part of Turkey (estimates are up to 20% of Turkey's population is Kurdish), so offering Kurds, especially the PKK, a "save haven" in Syria, might have Turkey convinced to better stop the fight.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2012 20:15 utc | 22
Noirette, these are apparently terrorists, while in Syria they would be activists:
A coalition of terrorist groups including the Real IRA, the Republican Action Against Drugs and a loose coalition of independent armed factions were said to be merging to form a “unified structure, under a single leadership”.
Posted by: Alexander | Jul 28 2012 20:16 utc | 23
The last 17 months have shown that the significance and impact of western media hegemony and propaganda (Saudi and Qatari media included) is overrated and overstated. It also shows how media outlets like the Guardian are no different from Fox news when it comes to Iran, Syria, and Lebanon. The western empire is clearly losing its grip.
Posted by: Amar | Jul 28 2012 20:17 utc | 24
ok. that's it.
George Romney has taken a foreign policy stand
Mitt Romney on Saturday explicitly sought for the first time to turn the Arab Spring into an issue in the United States presidential race. In an interview with an Israeli newspaper to set up his visit to Israel this weekend, Mr. Romney made several provocative statements distinguishing himself from President Obama.
Mr. Romney discussed the Arab Spring revolts as a problem rather than progress, he asserted against some evidence that the Obama administration had abandoned an agenda of pushing for democratic reform pursued by George W. Bush, and he characterized even the most moderate and Western friendly Islamists- those in the political parties leading legislatures in Tunisia and Morocco- as political opponents. The last runs counter to the Obama administration’s strategy, endorsed by some Republicans in Congress, of building alliances with moderate Islamists where possible.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2012 20:24 utc | 25
You know Homs city has been the principal city of the uprising. It had the biggest turnout to street protests last year, especially in late Spring and early Summer last year. This year a handful of neighborhoods in Homs became bombed-out desolate urban moonscapes and the names of those neighborhoods became internationally famous. At the top of the thread a Western journalist in Syria is quoted saying "There is no discernible sign in... Homs... that the people even wish to rise up against the regime." That's a ridiculous thing to say. A substantial minority of Syrians in Homs wish to rise up against the regime and destroy it.
But they are only a minority. The majority of Homs neighborhoods are law-abiding, mundane and unscathed by the uprising. Here for example is a video of street scenes of commerce and normalcy in selected neighborhoods of Homs city recorded by Addounia TV on 25 Jul 2012 (this video also contains brief interviews with people who are passing by on the streets, who are asked what do they think of the job the Syrian army is doing, and all respondents are full of praise for the army): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0Cr62MuhTiw#t=46s
A substantial minority of Syrians wish to rise up unconstitutionally against the government and destroy it. This phenomenon is a truly indigenous Syrian phenomenon. (Another truly indigenous Syrian phenomenon is the true strong support the Assad government has). Some people on this board, commenter "Brian" is one of them, have greatly overstated the impact of the foreign element in the Syrian uprising. I was reminded of the uprising's indigenousness today as I was watching the following video, which is a lively "up with the uprising and down with the regime" street rally in Yabroud town in Outer Damascus recorded yesterday (Friday), featuring substantial numbers of women and children: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPE1pZah780 .
Real Syrians at a pro-rebel street protest in Al-Ashrafiya neighborhood in Aleppo, Friday 27 Jul 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WbXXsLVO3Y
Noirette, a lot of McClatchy's articles are just BS wishful thinking with no bases in reality..
Fact is, for most of Syria's minority, they see their future with Assad or more to the point, the Syrian government..The reason the rebels haven't won is that they think they're fighting on behalf of "sunnis"(as in, saving Sunnis from Alawites)..What they forget is that, the combination of all the minorities in Syria probably add up to the number of "Sunnis"..And most Syrian Sunnis are not extremists like those in the Persian Gulf region whose ideology make up the bulk of the fsa..The Sunnis in the Gulf region are very backward but happen to find themselves in an oil rich region..More money, no brains.
Is it any wonder that a lot of those doing the fighting among the fsa are from the countryside or those who have connection with Qatar and Saudi Arabia extremists?
Posted by: Zico | Jul 28 2012 21:28 utc | 28
OFF-TOPIC : Anti Serial Posters
What about a MoA Chrome Extension that will remove all those serial posters from your sight? Right now, I can only see 18 of 28 comments :)
I could have zipped a file with it, but I guess that for everyone's peace of mind it is better to simply document the steps and necessary code.
There's a ReadMe with instructions on how to create 3 single text-only files (Javascript) that constitute the Extension.
Two are very simple and quite clear in its inner workings.
And another one, which is a big Javascript library, that has to be copied from the official source (link provided) and pasted into a blank file.
If some regular reader finds this useful, please re-post it on the next OpenThread (preferably at the beginning). Thanks!
Posted by: citizen x | Jul 28 2012 21:39 utc | 29
I think you're right,b. There is a slight change in attitudes.
I would think it is because 100% support for the opposition has become too ridiculous.
In any case, US policy is not affected. US policy is to weaken Syria, not to replace Asad by another strong regime.
Posted by: alexno | Jul 28 2012 22:20 utc | 30
I see panic in high places..As the rebels are getting pounded in Allepo, the snc head is now calling on the UN to "act"..France's Hollande(another Sarkozy) is also calling for the same thing..
It's clear for all to see now who controls these rebels..I'm just amazed at how these rebels thought they could "win" against the entire Syrian army - with all their fighterjets, missiles, navy etc. I think what we're witnessing here is the bankruptcy of those pushing the fsa to keep fighting..They know nothing much will come out of it but at the same time they also cannot admit/accept defeat..So they continue to throw more jihadis to the Syrian army's meat grinder..
Meanwhile, Erdogan's going MAD..The Kurds are coming and they'll be Turkey soon.
Posted by: Zico | Jul 28 2012 22:37 utc | 31
There is a lot of pride involved here, in the beginning, most mainstream media had a clear support for the rebels, and even as the less laudable sides of the opposition became apparent, the journalists who had already made up their mind wouldn't admit having been mistaken, so they spitefully continue their support for the rebels, even after they really should know better. It's very much about not admitting fault, and changing ones position.
Posted by: Alexander | Jul 28 2012 22:42 utc | 32
@25 I just cannot understand how Romney squares his obvious anti-Islamic feelings with support for the jihadis. Of course the interviewer didn't ask.
Posted by: dh | Jul 28 2012 22:44 utc | 33
dh @ 33
Indeed, what kind of journalist could fail to raise that basic issue? They treat the readers as idiots.
Posted by: Alexander | Jul 28 2012 22:57 utc | 34
Liwa al-Umma is made up of more than 6,000 men, 90 per cent of whom are Syrian. The rest are mostly Libyans and other Arabs, including several who live in Ireland.
What will those "several who live in Ireland" and are now fighting Syria do once they come back home to Ireland?
===================
remember the Bush Doctrine?
'"We will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.'
http://usforeignpolicy.about.com/od/defense/a/The-Bush-Doctrine.htm
Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2012 1:34 utc | 35
The Guardian, which has since the very beginning been one of the worst propaganda outlets on Syria, is having second thoughts. Today's editorial is calling not for more war but for negotiations:
maybe - but they're also running this as "Breaking News":
Rebels fight off Government assault
EVERY so-called 'fact' or figure mentioned in that report comes either from mostly anonymous so-called 'activists' or else from the laughable 'Syrian Observatory for Human Rights' - in reality not an organisation at all but merely one guy sitting in a two-bedroom terraced home in Coventry, UK, going by the name of Rami Abdulrahman (or sometimes Rami Abdul Rahman, or Rami Abdelrahman)
It did mention one point of interest
The state-controlled al-Watan newspaper celebrated the assault with a banner headline proclaiming the fight for Aleppo "the mother of all battles".
Which if true would indicate that the Syrian gov at least seems to believe that there are quite a LOT of Terrorists holed up in Aleppo - and is apparently engaged in some sort of 'battle' with them
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 2:02 utc | 36
regarding claims of fake Muslim-terror plots in Britain
Police 'made up' evidence against Muslim student
Documents released under the Freedom of Information Act also reveal that the arrests were mentioned in a report, cited and disseminated by the Home Office, called Islamist Terrorist Plots in Great Britain: Uncovering the Global Network.Now, however, the results of the internal West Midlands police professional standards investigation into the affair following complaints by Thornton over the police's handing of the case is complete. It found that officers effectively invented what Thornton, the university's sole terrorism expert, told them about the al-Qaida training manual in a police interview.
During the interview Thornton said that he merely told police that Sabir was studying al-Qaida, but was never asked to discuss the manual. Thornton says that officers invented claims that he had concerns over the manual which he says are an apparent attempt to justify the arrest and police anti-terror operation, codenamed Minerva.
The findings of the force's standard's inquiry upheld Thornton's claim that officers "made up what he said about the al-Qaida manual."
It also states that the actual minutes of the Gold Group meeting of the detectives assigned to the case "incorrectly recorded" their conversation with Thornton.
Internal notes from the Gold Group meeting, dated May 17 2008, actually reveal police quoting Thornton as believing the manual was a "tactical document" and could not be considered relevant to Sabir's academic research into terrorism.
Thornton has now referred the police treatment of him to the IPCC. The standards board, however, says that no officers will be investigated for misconduct.
Thornton, a former counter terrorism officer in the British army who earlier this year left his post at Nottingham University by mutual agreement, said: "The police were totally unprofessional. After their mistakes they tried to cover them up. I've seen some altered police notes, I've seen evidence made up. The whole thing seems to be a complete tissue of lies, starting from the cover up of their mistakes in the first place."
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 2:09 utc | 37
I knew, just by reading the sub-heading on the front page, that this was a Luke Harding report
Syrian rebels near Aleppo: 'We are besieging Assad's army'
[sure you are, guys, no doubt about it if ol' Luke Harding is reporting it, eh?]Regime forces have been pulverising rebel-held districts using artillery and helicopter gunships. But the rebels are upbeat
'upbeat' no less - good ol' Luke
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 2:23 utc | 38
Reuters is pimping this video which is so obviously full of fake footage that it's a bit of a joke tbh - Rebels continue fighting government forces
"July 28 - Opposition forces contine to battle troops loyal to President Assad in Syria. Julie Noce reports."
Note for example the 2 guys with automatic weapons posing for the camera - camera then cuts to what someone would like us to believe is a wide-angle view of the same scene shot from behind the two clowns we just saw posing for the cameras, but note also that it's not the 2 guys you just saw because after the cut you can see one of the guys is wearing something white on his head whereas neither of the 2 posing clowns filmed before the cut are wearing anything white on their head.
Note also the helicopter, supposedly being shot down - it's firing missiles as it supposedly plummets - obviously is a video of a helicopter that has been turned around to a 90-degree angle (the video I mean) - how stupid do these so-called 'News' orgs think people are?
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 3:10 utc | 39
Parviziyi | Jul 28, 2012 4:42:08 PM | 27
meed Frank @5!
Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2012 3:21 utc | 40
Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 28, 2012 4:42:08 PM | 27
talk about foolishness..
if what you say is true:
after the destruction the insurgency has wrought..these need to be rounded up for their support for the destruction of syria
how representative syria or even Allepo that bunch? Parv almost reads as an apologist for terrorism..He needs to recall what has happened to Libya..similar crowds also were in Libya...how many of the above crowd also with to ride syria of alwaite and christians?
Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2012 3:26 utc | 41
Consider:
post 9-11 attacks, a crowd gathers in New York speaking out in support of alqaeda and against the US regime..
what would happen to them?
Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2012 3:29 utc | 42
Last night on the CBS Evening News, the coverage of of Syria and Aleppo nearly overdosed on using dictatorship, as in "the Assad or Assad family dictatorship". "Dictatorship" supplanted CBS's use of "regime" for most of last week, iirc. Friday night I think "distatorship" was worked into one sentence at least 3 times, maybe four. Over the top, guys.
Maybe Western powers have decided Syria may not fall quickly or it needs to tamp down the warlust being built in, oh, Great Britain by the Beeb. (What are they thinking? Have they no regard for the BBC's reputation? Or does having Austerians in power put the fear of even more budget cuts into the hearts of the Beeb leaders? But even Cameron and Osborne probably can't figure out how to pay for yet another war, maybe....)
Posted by: jawbone | Jul 29 2012 4:03 utc | 43
Yazan.S @YazanAlAssad
2 #FSA terrorists fled to my area in #Aleppo and were shot dead, not by soldiers, but by the residents, THIS IS ALEPPO! NOT A GAME #Syria
Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2012 4:17 utc | 44
Posted by: jawbone | Jul 29, 2012 12:03:51 AM | 43
Brainwashing 101
Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2012 4:18 utc | 45
In any case, US policy is not affected. US policy is to weaken Syria, not to replace Asad by another strong regime.
Posted by: alexno | Jul 28, 2012 6:20:21 PM | 30
That would be a strange way of doing it. As I remember Obama came out with Assad is illegitimate, his days are numbered. If he now manages to weather the storm and Russia plus Iran manage to broker a compromise between the regime and the indigenous (yes it exists) opposition, it is the US that is weakened, not Syria.
If the US administration are prepared to let this happen instead of the Algeria option or intervention, the reason will be the US elections. I still find the way Jihadi groups suddenly gave press conferences - virtually - by kidnapping journalists or granting photo ops with the Al Queida flag, or praising the 6th century Califate very suspicious. They have been there right from the start.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 29 2012 5:27 utc | 46
Lizzie Phelan:
People are sharing this as an inspiration??? This is some disturbing business and another example of how the west uses womens rights to act like it champions that cause.... Remember Afghanistan anyone?
http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2011/10/176354.htm
A Priceless Quote from a confident Muslim Woman
Nobel Peace Prize winner "Tawakkul Karman," when asked about her Hijab by journalists and how it is not proportionate with her level of intellect and education, replied:
“Human being in early times was almost naked, and as his intellect evolved he started wearing clothes.
What I am today and what I’m wearing represents the highest level of thought and civilization that human being has achieved, and is not regressive.
It’s the removal of clothes again that is a regression back to the ancient times.''
What an inspiration...I know of no one who could have said it better!
Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2012 7:26 utc | 47
@Hu bris #38
But the rebels are upbeatit's the new meme
on the BBC site, this is what their correspondent in Aleppo had to say until yesterday morning:
28 July 2012 Last updated at 08:30 GMTvery interesting piece, btw, worth reading all
Aleppo: BBC journalist on Syria army moving in on city
Ian Pannell By Ian Pannell BBC News, AleppoThe atmosphere has changed since we were here three days ago. It is eerily quiet, there are very few residents around and the mood amongst the rebels is very tense.
The commander of one of the largest brigades operating in Aleppo was even deliberating pulling his men out because he was not getting enough ammunition.
He was urged by his men not to leave - they are still here, they have been fighting this morning and wounded fighters have been brought back to the area for treatment in a makeshift clinic.
The rebels may insist in interviews that they will prevail, but the mood on the ground is different.
and this is how on the homepage, since yesterday evening, BBC "corrects" Ian Pannell's reporting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19034167
29 July 2012 Last updated at 06:27 GMT
Syria: Opposition in call to arm rebel fightersThe BBC's Ian Pannell, who has been in Aleppo, has seen fierce battles, with a number of rebel fighters killed.
He says the rebels are upbeat [he didn't! --my note] but vastly outgunned and outmanned and that civilians have packed on to lorries as they try to flee the city.
pathetic
Posted by: claudio | Jul 29 2012 9:46 utc | 48
Over the past 18 months of protesting in Syria, the biggest anti-government street protests happened in early summer 2011 in Assi Square in Hama City. Homs City had bigger numbers of protesters out on the streets around the same time, but in Homs City the protests were spread out among a handful of separate gatherings in separate neighborhoods, whereas in Hama City there was just one gathering place, Assi Square.
The following is ten seconds of scenes of normalcy and commercial traffic at Assi Square in Hama city yesterday 28 Jul 2012. I present it as a piece of evidence that the uprising failed to get traction among the preponderance of Syrians in Hama and the uprising is in terminal decline: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fW4-r3p5frk#t=54s
Aleppo blame game: Conflicting reports from the ground in Syria
While mainstream media reports that residents of Aleppo are fleeing the city in droves, RT’s source maintains this is not the case.
“Right now, there is no movement from government forces. Some families and residents in Aleppo are leaving the city, but most people are just moving to safer areas within the area, such as a local school and university. The Red Cross is standing by to help those seeking shelter,” Kassargian said.
The Guardian's Luke Harding, possibly the most deluded AND dishonest hack to grace the pages of any major newspaper, worse than Judith Miller any day, interrogates a captured, and obviously coerced, member of the so-called 'Shabiha' militia. Note the 2 black-eyes and possibly broken nose.
Syria crisis: a captured Shabiha member in Aleppo speaks – video
You stay classy Luke.
Lil' Lukey don't appear to be too concerned with this guy's 'civil rights' though, does he?
I'm pretty sure Lil' Lukey, in interrogating an obviously coerced individual in this fashion, has broken at least one of the many international laws designed specifically for the preotection of individuals captured in a time of war.
"Asked if he killed anyone himself, Dado replied: "No." But he confirmed his Shabiha unit had looted many houses in Aleppo, robbed people, and probably raped women. "I didn't witness rape. But I heard talk about it in my unit," he said.
is tthis the feasrome baby-eating Shabiha we've all been warned so much about? They "stole a few things" and "talked about rape".
I don't want to make light of the situation. I'm sure some of these 'Shabiha' militia may well have behaved disgracefully when given the power-surge that comes from being suddenly handed a weapon and allowed to strut around behaving with impunity, but they're not exactly, are in these reports, coming across as the raping & marauding hordes of Genghis Khan, that Lil' Lukey Harding and his fellow blatant liars have previously assured us they are.
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 11:32 utc | 50
What is really happening in Damascus and Aleppo Syria - Thierry Meyssan speaks of the death toll amongst terrorists in Damascus and how gives us an insight on what is going on in Aleppo
http://youtu.be/0wkzWxM0PaU
Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2012 11:45 utc | 51
" there are no pro-assad Shabiha to capture!"
obviously there at least one or two knocking about, brian - the application of a little logic and scepticism would indicate that were the Lil Luke video, of the guy with 2 black eyes and a dmagaed nose, a complete fake the person being interrogated by Mr Harding would surely have been telling us some outrageous whoppers involving tales of 'Massacres of civilians' and widespread rape etc.
Since he didn't do that I personally would presume that he actually IS a member of such a 'pro-Assad' para-military force.
Of course whether or not he's telling the truth about his own activities is another matter entirely . . .
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 12:25 utc | 53
" Instead, the aim of diplomacy should be to devise a post-Assad power-sharing arrangement that all sides could sign on to. That, rather than more pressure on the government and more bickering among the outside powers, could finally persuade Syrians who are still in Mr. Assad’s corner to abandon the fight.
There are reasons to hope that Russia and Iran would join the bargaining. Both wish to rebuild their damaged prestige in the Arab world, and Iran is concerned about the fate of more than a million Shiite Muslims in Syria. As for the West, Mr. Assad’s fall, without a transition plan, would be a Pyrrhic victory — the beginning of a greater bloodletting.
A transition plan also must include Turkey, which has a long border with Syria and the military muscle to influence the conflict.
But the single most important participant would be Iran. It alone has the influence on Mr. Assad and the trust of various parts of his government to get them to buy in to a transition. Currently, Iran is at an impasse: it cannot abandon Mr. Assad, nor can it save him. But intense debates are taking place among its leaders, some of whom have called for ending Iran’s unwavering support for Mr. Assad.
Once a transition plan is worked out, it will be important to remember this: No such plan will be credible without committing foreign troops to enforce the cease-fire and protect the defeated minority communities that have backed Mr. Assad. Until the United States and its allies get down to business with Russia and Iran, and get serious about how they will manage Mr. Assad’s fall, the conflict will only grow — and so will the threat to the region. "
and this
Notion of Syria power transition "an illusion": Iran FM
Posted by: somebody | Jul 29 2012 14:09 utc | 55
We ought to remember that when Mitt Romney's lips move it's really his chief FP advisor Dan Senor talking.
"Dan Senor is an author, geopolitical expert, investor, and adjunct senior fellow for Middle East studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. He has long been involved in policy making, politics and business in the Middle East. Mr. Senor was one of the longest-serving civilian officials in Iraq, where he served in 2003 and2004 as a Senior Adviser and Chief Spokesperson for the U.S. led Coalition. For his service, he was awarded the highest civilian honor by the Pentagon.
"Mr. Senor has studied in Israel at The Hebrew University and completed his MBA at Harvard Business School. Throughout his business career, he has invested in a number of Israeli and American start-ups and today is involved with a New York based global investment fund.
"Dan Senor is the co-author of the New York Times best seller, Start-Up Nation: The Story of Israel’s Economic Miracle, which addresses the question: How is it that Israel, a country of 7.1 million people, only sixty years old, surrounded by enemies, in a constant state of war since its founding, with no natural resources, produces more start-up companies than large, peaceful and stable nations? . . ."
http://www.afhu.org/dan-senor
"How is it that Israel, a country of 7.1 million people, only sixty years old, surrounded by enemies, in a constant state of war since its founding, with no natural resources, produces more start-up companies than large, peaceful and stable nations? . . ."
A Conservative Estimate of Total U.S. Aid To Israel: More Than $123 Billion
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 29 2012 16:10 utc | 57
Voltaire Network reporting Syria eliminates Bandar bin Sultan in retaliation for Damascus bombing
Posted by: revenire | Jul 29 2012 16:23 utc | 58
Sorry, messed the link up.
http://www.voltairenet.org/Syria-eliminates-Bandar-bin-Sultan
Posted by: revenire | Jul 29 2012 16:30 utc | 59
Can't compete with @59 but this is an interesting posting by Asad Abu Khalil:
"Syrian "revolutionaries" in Aleppo have posted this message publicly. If this was posted by regime supporters, Western governments and the UN Security Council would have issued warnings and threats. I should copy before they erase it:
"France24، هو في سوريا اليوم 29/072012 لتغطية الأخبار في حلب وإدلب | مهم |. النشطاء والثوار يجب أن نكون حذرين منه للغاية ، ومنعه من التصوير في أماكن الناشطين الحساسة.
صور الحائط
Important | | Shadi Shalala Lebanese media correspondent has the French citizenship , works for Channel France24, a supporter of the Syrian regime arrived in Syria today 29/072012 to cover for the news in Aleppo and Idleb . Activists and revolutionaries have to be very careful and prevent him from filming in FSA and activists' sensitive places .Please spread the word
بواسطة: British Syrians & Friends in Solidarity with the Syrian Revolution". (thanks Amer)"
No doubt the British Friends of Syria (aka British Enemies) will include the ex-leftists who, if @59 is correct, will be mourning the loss of their leading comrade Bandar today.
The message is, of course, a call for the reporter's assassination.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 29 2012 16:45 utc | 60
@ Revenire
If it is true would be dynamite. However I note the "confirmed to Voltaire Network unofficially". I would certainly like to know where the source came from. Also still think that attack would have come internally from rival factions in the House of Saud. King Abdullah is on his way out, Prince Sultan and Prince Najaf have both died recently. Alot of power struggles will be going on amoung the various factions to get the throne next and King Abdullah always hated Bandar.
Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Jul 29 2012 16:48 utc | 61
Vali Nasr also published something along the lines of the article in guarian calling for the US to find a solution through Iran. This is ironic, and unrealsitic, since many think that Syria battle is the only way the US found to weaken Iran.
There's a huge shortage of diesel fuel in the Middle East, particularly in Saudi Arabia. Syria needs diesel to supply its heavy military equipment (tanks, etc.) and so Venezuela is supplying diesel to Syria.
This here and this on Vali Nasr.
I think it shows how desperate they are for any solution except Assad remaining in power.
The New York Times and the Guardian would be the papers close to the Obama administration.
Israel seems to have turned completely cool on supporting any rebels ...
Posted by: somebody | Jul 29 2012 17:18 utc | 65
Turkish reporter Mahir Zeynalov, from Turkey's "Today's Zaman", reports that China is the latest country to send warships to the eastern Mediterranean, near Syria
@MahirZeynalov
One Syria-bound Chinese destroyer ship crossed through Suez today while two Chinese warships passed through Istanbul straits today.
@MahirZeynalov
There are now 10 Russian warships, dozens of Turkish gunboats and warships, three U.S. aircraft carriers, three Chinese warships in east Med29 Jul 12
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 18:25 utc | 67
The Pentagon spokesman George Little first claims the US isn't flying blind, then in effect says that it is.
Q: But I guess, George, my point is that if you look at very recent past history as an example, the Iraqi government formed in a way that the U.S. really couldn't and didn't anticipate. You're saying you have no idea how some minorities in Syria, you know, Christian minorities like that may be treated, what may happen next, how brutal the next regime could be. But you just seem dead-set on getting to that point without having a clear idea of where you're -- what it is you're getting to.
MR. LITTLE: I would respectfully disagree with the premise of your question, which suggests that we're somehow blind to possibilities in the future, and we're not blind, Chris. We understand that this situation is fluid and that political transitions sometimes involve uncertainty and present challenges.
But this is something that the Syrians themselves need to define. We, along with our international partners who are opposing the Assad regime, we're working together to try to find ways to define or present ideas to define that political transition. But make no mistake about it. It's very important that Assad go. He is inflicting tremendous violence on his own people. And we need to get beyond him. -- July 26
http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=5088
Paul @66
as I am want to, I checked into this Krone paper a bit and came up with a link that might explain why they would want to photoshop and sway public opinion. the editor and major shareholder in the paper is Christoph Dichand who according to wiki worked at the Daily News and New York Post.... both of which are quite slanted in their views and rarely concern themselves with facts and inconvenient truths
Posted by: dan of steele | Jul 29 2012 20:42 utc | 69
"both of which are quite slanted in their views and rarely concern themselves with facts and inconvenient truths"
and this makes them fundamentally different from The Guardian, Or Reuters or the BBC Or the NY TImes exactly how?
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 20:46 utc | 70
that the BBC and sometimes The guardian try to look "honest"? I mean some news outlets try to maintain a good reputation while lying to you.... other don't (the sun etc.)
If the Syrian conflict has taught us anything, it's how the western msm all collude/connive to lie not only to their local audience, but to the entire world. From audio/video/image fakery to twisting UN official statements, they've done it all.
As the Syrian chaos dragged on, most of their lies have been exposed over and over again..Credibility is something you don't easily gain back once it's lost.
And they wonder why newspaper sales have gone down over the years?
Posted by: Zico | Jul 29 2012 21:45 utc | 72
John Pilger
During the 1970s, I filmed secretly in Czechoslovakia, then a Stalinist dictatorship. The dissident novelist Zdenek Urbánek told me, "In one respect, we are more fortunate than you in the west. We believe nothing of what we read in the newspapers and watch on television, nothing of the official truth. Unlike you, we have learned to read between the lines, because real truth is always subversive."
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/pilger.php?articleid=8877
Association Press report on July 28 quoting anonymous sources as stating, “The CIA considers Israel its No. 1 counterintelligence threat in the agency’s New East Division,” - the group that oversees spying across he Middle East.
Prime Minister Binyamin’s Office reviled its content, including allegations of Mossad intrusions of US officials’ homes, as “a lying report.”
This leak had two objectives, says DEBKAfile:
1. To deter US presidential candidate Mitt Romney from using his visit to Israel Sunday and Monday July 29-30 to promise, if elected in November, to review Jonathan Pollard’s life sentence for spying for Israel, which all previous US presidents have refused to do at the CIA's behest. It has been suggested that he may be considering going on record with this pledge to win Jewish votes.
2. To hit back at the Israel watchers dogging the footsteps of CIA agents planted in a widely-flung undercover network for picking up any clues that Israeli preparations for a unilateral attack on Iran’s nuclear program are moving into operational phase.
Posted by: Nikon | Jul 29 2012 22:14 utc | 74
Storytelling: NATO rewrites the Syrian conflict
Yossef Bodansky, the U.S.-Israeli expert who wrote the official history of Al Qaeda, is back. . . .. . . . . [Bodansky] no longer works for the U.S. Congress and the Defense Department, but for the Institute Strategie für Politik-und-Sicherheits-Wirtschaftsberatung (ISPSW) in Berlin, a, Atlanticist think tank.
He has just published a paper soberly titled "A Heretic’s Up-Dated Musings on Syria" [PDF]. . .
. . . . the author recommends the continued military support of the Free Syrian Army rebels with a view to their weakening Damascus, but rationed so as to ensure they will never be in a position to overthrow the Assad government (not the person of Bashar Assad, but the forces he stems from).
Yossef Bodansky’s false scholarly analysis is solely designed to justify this level of support while hiding its real strategic motives: we must arm the Free Syrian Army (to stop the killings), but we
canshould [my edit] not do more
This would kinda fit what we see at the moment, IMHO
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 22:42 utc | 75
article above is from Voltaire Network and is dated 20 May 2012
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 22:46 utc | 76
Again the UN is interfering in a country's internal affairs.
Statement on Syria - Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, Valerie Amos
(New York, 29 July) I am extremely concerned by the impact of shelling and use of tanks and other heavy weapons on people in Aleppo, Syria’s most populous city, as well as in the capital Damascus and surrounding towns.
The International Committee of the Red Cross and the Syrian Arab Red Crescent estimate that some 200,000 people have fled fighting in Aleppo and surrounding areas in the last two days. It is not known how many people remain trapped in places where fighting continues today.
http://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/statement-syria-under-secretary-general-humanitarian-affairs-and-4
The shelling and use of tanks is required because of the presence of the insurgent forces. Which way does Amos want it? Should noncombatant people flee or "remain trapped?"
I don't recall the UN being upset when half a million Iraqis fled Baghdad in early 2007 as a result of the "surge," a part of an illegal war that caused a million deaths and five million displaced.
Another one from Thierry & Co.
The battle of Damascus has begun," voltairenet.org, July 20, 2012
Western and Gulf powers have launched the largest secret war operation since the Contra war in NicaraguaThe Battle of
DamascusAleppo is not intended to topple President Bashar al-Assad, but to fracture the Syrian Army to better ensure the domination of Israel and the U.S. over the Middle East.--Thierry Meyssan"
Again this would kinda fit what we see at the moment, IMHO - certainly as good as any other explanation
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 22:53 utc | 78
"I don't recall the UN being upset when half a million Iraqis fled Baghdad in early 2007 as a result of the "surge," a part of an illegal war that caused a million deaths and five million displaced. "
yes but the luvverly Baroness Amos was a Minister in the Gov't of The Right Honourable Anthony Charles Lynton Blair, which made that fateful descision to tell a whole bunch of lies in order to launch an illegal war against the dreaded Iraqi foe.
The luvverly Baroness Amos was appointed UK Secretary of State for International Development and only took up office on 12 May 2003 (12 May 2003 coincides rather neatly, you may note, with the outbreak 8 days later of the aforementioned illegal Iraq War) a post she held for a mere 5 months until she was rewarded by The Right Honourable Anthony Charles Linton Blair with the position of Leader of the House of Lords on 6 October 2003 (fromn her wiki)
The luvverly Baroness Amos replaced Claire Short as UK Secretary of State for International Development, who resigned, suppossedly on 'principle' a whole 2 months AFTER her decision to back the 2003 Iraq War.
which tbh seemed completely bloody pointless to me, given that the damage was already done
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 23:14 utc | 79
P.S
Claire was also the asshole minister that decided it would be a great bloomin Idea NOT to live up to the Uk's obligation, agreed in legally binding format at the time of Zimbabwean Independence, to meet the costs of land purchase in Zimbabwe - thus leading directly to the destruction of the Zimbabwean economy, through vindictive sanctions enacted aginst Zimbabwe, after the Zimbabwean Gov't decided to say "To hell with the Brits!" and went ahead an took back their land anyway
Her excuse at the time consisted in part of saying:
"We are a new government from diverse backgrounds, without links to former colonial interests. My own origins are Irish and, as you know, we were colonised, not colonisers."
which gave me a hell of a laugh at the time, I can tell you
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 29 2012 23:21 utc | 80
Bandar Bin Sultan was supposedly killed by Hafez Makhlouf
On 18 July 2012, Al Arabiya reported that Makhlouf was killed in a bombing which targeted Syria's National Security headquarters in Damascus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez_Makhlouf
Hafez Makhlouf was a target of the Damascus bombing but survived
Posted by: Nikon | Jul 30 2012 0:00 utc | 81
I hate to piss on the party but I strongly suspect that it was never fukusi's intention to install a sunni fundie regime in Syria much less one with reputed AQ (who/whatever that means in 2012) 'ties'.
The disadvantage of getting these blokes into power has been starkly illustrated in Libya where the cheeky unwhites have taken to abducting white.women.lawyers. good god! ya can't get much more uppity than that. And when they commit one of these outrages against white decency the govts. of fukasi nations plus those of assorted lackey states cop a hiding from their media (not an absolute hiding if you read the link you'll see that the subtext is definitely of the 'unreliable darkie' tenor, plus a bit of good old fashioned defence lawyer kicking nevertheless sub-editors have been playing the white slavery dog-whistle over the top of that), so there is a downside to helping the buggers into power.
This is especially true when the new boss doesn't have sufficient support from the populace & fukusi aren't willing to give him the means to control the turf lest he prove to be 'untrustworthy' i.e. starts worrying about Libyans instead of the italians, french and englanders whose need for petroleum is great, not to mention the corporations depending on the ability to steal Libyan resources to pay for campaign 'donations' in fukasi.
Clearly the best way to achieve the end most desired by whitey, that is to cause maximum concern for iran, and minimum worry for the exponents of the jordan valley ethnic cleanse, would be to keep Syria in a constant state of civil war, with Assad & co still nominally in power and therefore 'responsible' for all the bad shit that will happen there for the next few years.
So the sunni citizens are likely to get creamed in the cities - therefore forcing them to huddle along the border with turkey where they can be controlled, indoctrinated and dependant on whitefella 'consideration'.
Just one more thing - to those in here who are calling sunni fighters 'terrorists' and general assholes. I seem to remember that many of the peeps calling them that were back in 04 n 05 calling them freedom fighters resisting imperial invasion and it was the shia who were copping it for being treasonous puppets of ukusi - which is kinda ironic since many are calling out fukusi as hypocrites for doin the same, only in reverse.
Teh only thing really shows is exactly how all wannabe leaders are prepared to sacrifice principle for power, everywhere, everytime. The only recourse we can have is to direct our anger right at the perps (the pollies) in our own state whenever we find them at this (all of the time).
Trying to 'sort' this stuff by taking sides in another society's business only serves to strengthen the hand of whatever corrupt asshole has managed to elbow his way to the top of the heap of whatever movement western contrarians currently deem 'the goodies'.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 30 2012 0:58 utc | 83
"I hate to piss on the party but I strongly suspect that it was never fukusi's intention to install a sunni fundie regime in Syria much less one with reputed AQ (who/whatever that means in 2012) 'ties'."
kinda easy to say that now, though, ain't it?
"The disadvantage of getting these blokes into power has been starkly illustrated in Libya where the cheeky unwhites have taken to abducting white.women.lawyers. good god! ya can't get much more uppity than that. And when they commit one of these outrages against white decency the govts. of fukasi nations plus those of assorted lackey states cop a hiding from their media "
no they don't. The Western Media has not made any real issue out this at all. Virtually all Western Media, has been pretty silent on the matter, and really only started reporting it after she was freed.
If anything SHE, with her expectations of a 'fair-trial' for Saif al Islam, was the potential embarrassment to the Western Gov'ts.
The Western Gov'ts are probably quite happy that she was kidnapped/arrested, and may even have 'suggested' it in the first place, since she has actually expressed real concern about the fate of Saif al Islam, Ghaddaffi's son. I'm pretty sure the Western gov'ts would much rather see him strung up by a mob in Libya rather than face an actual trial, and any embarrassing revealations that might occur during such a trial, in the Hague.
Such a mob-lynching would actually be very useful to the 'Clash of Civilisations' junkies, Moronic 'journalists' of a 'right' persuasion could then create a fuss and spew-forth many column-inches on the uncivilised nature of 'Arab justice' which would help further the narrative that the 'Arabs' are uncivilised wretches, incapable of living in a fair democratic manner - while Moronic 'journalists' of a 'left' persuasion could then create another different fuss and spew-forth many po-faced santimonious column-inches on the 'racism' of the 'right-wing' journalists. Overall a brilliant result for the Western Clash-of-civilisations junkies, what with everyone squabbling amongst themselves and missing the bigger picture entirely.
speaking of which - this 'blackfella'/'whitefella' crap you're addicted to is seriously in need of updating. It's the sort of thing fossilised left-wingers cling on to, but is no more accurate than the 'Clash of civilisations' crap spewed out by Zio-nauts, in fact it's merely the mirror-image of same, and is an indication only of blinkered racism of the person promoting it. The elite care not what color you are - only that you're either 'on-board' with 'the program' or not.
If Kosovo/Bosnia/Yugoslavia taught intelligent people anything it's that the elite will bomb the hell out of you no matter what color you are - all they want is to steal anything not nailed down, and destroy any notion that assets should be held for the common good. the color of the people owning it has absolutely nothing to do with it.
What's important is the idea that "There's no such thing as 'Society'!"
Sure they'll use the 'blackfella/whitefella' idea, but it's merely a tool, to bamboozle fossilised tools, a means to an end, not something they are rigidly wedded to
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 30 2012 9:32 utc | 84
Hu bris, my impression is that you didn't read carefully what DiD wrote; of course you didn't, you get frenzy every time you think you saw a "leftie" reveal his ideological vices; but with DiD you are aiming at the wrong target
I mean, I can't detect a real difference between what the two of you said, except you read in Did's post something that wasn't there
if you are on a hunt on "leftists" of a certain kind, MoA is certainly the wrong place to look for them
regarding "fukus'" real intentions, I believe there's a group of politicians, headed by Killery Clinton, that really wanted to install a "freedom lovers government" in place of Assad; there is some real madness among them
Posted by: claudio | Jul 30 2012 9:51 utc | 85
Not at all, I just thought it very funny indeed how he opened his screed above - read it quite carefully, and noticed his promotion, once again, of the utterly simplistic, and misleading in the extreme, racist 'blackfella/whitefella' crap.
The elite use that only as a tool. And the people that adhere to it are as racist as those they claim to be against. Seeing the world as 'blackfella/whitefella' is just dumb, divisive and racist. It's exactly what the elite want - that way you'll not see what they're actually up to.
"I believe there's a group of politicians, headed by Killery Clinton, that really wanted to install a "freedom lovers government" in place of Assad; there is some real madness among them"
'freedom lovers' is nothing but a useful and very very mallebale expression used by these people. It can essentially mean anything they want it to mean - 'freedom' gets redefined almost everytime they use it.
And you may be right that they really did want to install a new gov't - equally you may be wrong - neither of us can be sure, and there's certainlky arguments and evidence enough to support both conclusions. I have no great emotional attachment to either viewpoint, yours nor the one laid out in the voltairenet.org articles posted above.
I certainly agree that there's "there is some real madness among them" - I already discussed it at some lenght - we just disagree on the nature of that madness.
You see it as mere delusion, mostly them making the mistake of believing their own proaganda, something which maybe could be 'corrected' within these people, whereas I see it as firm evidence of their pure psychopathic nature, something which can not be 'corrected'.
"if you are on a hunt on "leftists" of a certain kind, MoA is certainly the wrong place to look for them
the whole 'left/right' divide is mostly just an illusion - and I'll happily laugh at boring uber-verbose fossilised rightists with just as much pleasure -
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 30 2012 10:24 utc | 86
"Hu bris, my impression is that you didn't read carefully what DiD wrote"
Btw if you think he and I are saying the same thing then my impression is that you either really didn't read very crefully what he wrote,or you really didn't read very carefully what I wrote
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 30 2012 10:51 utc | 87
Hu bris, you can't monopolize language and decide the correct use and real meaning of any expression; DiD's use of the 'blackfella/whitefella' expression, and mine of "real madness among them", are quite clear in the context of what we are saying, and you are building imaginary barriers between people that are saying basically the same thing
western elites appeal to racism, although they would slaughter "whites" with the same enthusiasm if it fit their needs - they did so; the fact remains that western suprematism is racially oriented at its heart, since it started taking shape in the XVIII century (see Marcus Rediker and Peter Linebaugh "The Many-Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners and the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic")
I used "real madness" in a sense completely equivalent to your "psychopath" theme; and it's quite different from "believing their own propaganda", which I think is decisively at play but on a wider scale, applying to people who aren't criminals
I insist: Hu bris, you react to words as red herrings
Posted by: claudio | Jul 30 2012 12:01 utc | 88
And along b's theme, there's this article:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/10591-syria-what-russia-and-china-have-learned-from-the-last-nato-war
Posted by: ben | Jul 30 2012 14:44 utc | 89
"If Kosovo/Bosnia/Yugoslavia taught intelligent people anything it's that the elite will bomb the hell out of you no matter what color you are - all they want is to steal anything not nailed down, and destroy any notion that assets should be held for the common good. the color of the people owning it has absolutely nothing to do with it."
Very simplistic, simple minded view.
Neglecting race and religion, the fundament of nation-state, of those "foreign other" is cardinal foolishness and manipulation. The argument that NATO, or the West, had "helped" the Bosnian Muslims, Kosovo Albanians because they bombed the Serbia is used as argument by their politicians and to justifying aggression against Palestina, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan is plain lie. Another aspect of such narrative, promoted by anti-interventionist liberals and lefties, is to obfuscate reality, focusing only on intervention and bombing, without considering the context and the history, thus creating "memory hole".
Eventually, violent lie is transformed into violent action, ongoing destruction of abovementioned countries. In case that you are interested what has happened in Yugoslavia I'll say: the same what took place in 1941. Nazi conquered the country, divide it, and installed semi-fascists puppet regimes. Today, they are controlled by same forces: EU (or Germany again) and NATO.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jul/27/ruins-of-empire-pankaj-mishra
"Japanese injuries and insults to the White population … would irreparably damage white prestige unless severely punished within a short time".
and...Hiroshima and Nagasaki followed.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 30 2012 15:34 utc | 91
Noirette, no 17, Kurdistan is a very small part of Syria but a huge part of Turkey (estimates are up to 20% of Turkey's population is Kurdish), so offering Kurds, especially the PKK, a "save haven" in Syria, might have Turkey convinced to better stop the fight.
errr..I am well aware of such pedestrian info, have a drink on me, choose your tipple.
From the gossip column, by Noir Lighte, your ditzy dame with all the latest, Kurdistan, where is that? ..
title: The Company He Keeps, or Kept
Manaf Tlass has been seen about town, in Paris and Damascus, in inter-esting company, night clubbing, mingling intense discussion with other pleasurable pursuits. His companions - no ladies present - are the infamous conspiracist Thierry Meyssan, Dieudonné, extravagant show man and serially convicted anti-semite, and Fred Chatillon, long time side-kick of Marine Le Pen. Ladies, some of them are not-so-best-buddies any longer with the handsome Manaf, here’s your chance! Stay tuned, there is more to the story.
(please don’t bother telling me some of the photos are old or detailing F history in Syria. excuses for the levity, gross humor is a defense.)
Two photos here:
http://www.rue89.com/2012/07/29/syrie-quand-le-general-dissident-etait-lami-de-dieudonne-234235
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 30 2012 16:13 utc | 92
Noirette, no 17, Kurdistan is a very small part of Syria but a huge part of Turkey (estimates are up to 20% of Turkey's population is Kurdish), so offering Kurds, especially the PKK, a "save haven" in Syria, might have Turkey convinced to better stop the fight.
errr..I am well aware of such pedestrian info, have a drink on me, choose your tipple.
From the gossip column, by Noir Lighte, your ditzy dame with all the latest, Kurdistan, where is that? ..
title: The Company He Keeps, or Kept
Manaf Tlass has been seen about town, in Paris and Damascus, in inter-esting company, night clubbing, mingling intense discussion with other pleasurable pursuits. His companions - no ladies present - are the infamous conspiracist Thierry Meyssan, Dieudonné, extravagant show man and serially convicted anti-semite, and Fred Chatillon, long time side-kick of Marine Le Pen. Ladies, some of them are not-so-best-buddies any longer with the handsome Manaf, here’s your chance! Stay tuned, there is more to the story.
(please don’t bother telling me some of the photos are old or detailing F history in Syria. excuses for the levity, gross humor is a defense.)
Two photos here:
http://www.rue89.com/2012/07/29/syrie-quand-le-general-dissident-etait-lami-de-dieudonne-234235
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 30 2012 16:13 utc | 93
@91 Where do people like Navi Pillay, Susan Rice, Barak Obama and Kofi Annan fit into your black/white theory?
Posted by: dh | Jul 30 2012 16:18 utc | 94
"...and...Hiroshima and Nagasaki followed."
post hoc ergo propter hoc
Posted by: ruralito | Jul 30 2012 19:56 utc | 95
On Voltaire re: Bandar Bush
Riyad neither confirms nor denies Prince Bandar’s death
Posted by: revenire | Jul 30 2012 21:12 utc | 96
I like the comment section of this
Bruce Riedel on Al Queida everywhere. The longer the conflict in Syria lasts ...
(so how about a brief war?)
Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2012 21:58 utc | 97
From Penny: NATO militants seen donning gas masks. So what's next?
http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com/
Posted by: ben | Jul 31 2012 4:21 utc | 98
Some of the simpleminded literalists who have taken to spamming this joint should consider putting their brains into gear and actually thinking.
No one is suggesting that the pricks who run the joint delineate on any basis other than wealth and/or power. What we are saying is that the simpleminded dingbats who have been indoctrinated to get their hackles up at any mention of white disadvantage are easy to manipulate because of it.
Time for a close to home example:
The neo-liberal assholes who currently 'control' parliament here in Aotearoa have decided to sell off our nationally owned power generation and distribution system. It goes out to their mates who all stick their hands in the bowl to get their earner before it is passed on to some mate of the prime ministers from back in the day when he was a morgan stanley exec in the north. Most kiwis remain vigorously opposed to asset sales. OK that part simple enough for the simple-minded?
The system being sold is great since it is based around hydroelectric and geo-thermal generation. That is it doesn't cost fuck all to make the electricity (not that you could know that here where the govt has ramped up charges in the last two years preceding the sale so as to save embarrassment when the new owners gouge us).
These state owned corporations return big bucks to the people which are used to offset taxes and have been generally successful as an efficient energy producer.
There is one problem with their plan, the same problem that stymied their attempt to privatise the nation’s forestry industry last time they were in power.
That is aotearoa's founding document is a treaty between queen victoria as englander head of state and the iwi chiefs of about 70% of the Maori who were living here when the englanders turned up.
It was written in maori and signed after the Tangata Whenua ('our people') had fought the englanders to a standstill. Tough blokes who resisted and resisted to the point where colonial occupation stopped being economically viable, so the englanders decided to do a deal.
One of the aspects of the treaty is that it recognises prior occupation and ownership of everything (altho that is hotly debated) by Maori until the Crown (englanders) buy it with the agreement of the Maori chiefs.
Everything went swimmingly when aotearoa was a socialist state. Maori didn't do very well even in an egalitarian state, but the trade-off whereby water, land, and forests were used by all people for all people was largely accepted unless theft was blatant or culture shat upon.
When that arrangement ended so everything got privatised, tangata whenua decided it was time to dust off the treaty.
The resulting cost of that to the state has been high because 150 years of indifference had resulted in some really egregious acts theft by all sorts of government quangos, local bodies, and private corporations.
The government immediately legislated to prevent anything being taken back that was in private ownership, but that left a heck of a lot which maori have been demanding be returned.
The water thing remained in abeyance past many other taonga, for as long as water was being used by all for all.
There were some ructions in the 90's when local bodies privatised reticulated water supply but that was termed as privatising the supply network, not the substance itself so Maori who were in the process of negotiating the return of stolen land largely left the water thing alone until the current mob of greedheads and asslicks won power n began to sell off the few assets that still remained in kiwi's hands.
The current mob in power are a coalition of tory greed head crooks, a couple of main-chancer pakeha populists, and a political party called "the Maori Party" which formed out of tangata whenua dissatisfaction with the previous centre left govt.
aotearoa has managed to resist complete hegemony by the neo-liberal two party duopoly because it was used as a laboratory back in the 1980's by the 1%ers interested in spreading their poison past latin american states into so-called "western democracies". The duopoly got going here when the 1980's so-called left wing political party successfully introduced the same 'reforms' as reagan and thatcher were trying to get up in the north. The level of political manipulation thru media monopoly that is possible nowadays just wasn't there so the people rose up and demanded the first past the post system of election used in amerika england and many other whitefella dominated 'democracies' be tossed out and replaced with proportional representation. It was a big defeat for corporate power grabbing that is unlikely to be repeated elsewhere which is why this joint was used as a trial space - to identify pitfalls and inoculate against em before the scam was rolled out everywhere.
Anyway back to now - the maori party has been sliding in the polls ever since they sided with the tories. Tangata whenua aren't big on having their whanau thrown in jail for fuck all n seeing all aotearoa wealth moved into the hands of a few, even if a very few of those are Maori. But the most the Maori Party did to stop the sales was to abstain from voting for them.
By this time maori were as angry as everyone else so a group of traditional leaders operating outside the tory created and dominated iwi leaders group lodged a claim for ownership of aotearoa's fresh water.
Right from the start they have made it plain that they don't want to own water, they want to stop aotearoa's power generation from being owned by some foreign corporation that will gouge kiwi's cash and run it badly (many previous privatisations here show this is the inevitable course these things follow).
That didn't stop the local 100% foreign corporation owned media from helping the tory govt to play the old "maori are greedy pricks trying to steal your wealth" beat up.
The govt is in the process of trying to turn the argument away from asset sales into race baiting.
Maori are currently about 12% of the population with another 6% of kiwis Pacific Islanders many of whom understand exactly where the tangata whenua are coming from.
There are some racists and plenty of tossers like hu bris who fall for the dog whistle every time. This article by a maori academic attempts to explain the legal standing of the claim & is accompanied by posts from lots of terrified whiteys just like hubris who have been sucked into the tory scam by dog whistle, instead of objectively considering the facts of the issue.
If the referendum gets up which it will, there is no doubt the neo-libs will respond by trying to make the argument all about race when it simply isn't.
But fools are in abundance throughout the world so they may succeed.
Sorry to any readers who caught it first time round esp. Claudio who was put in the untenable position of trying to explain my rather obtuse scrawls but I but I have an ego too so I will get as stinky and personal as I feel when dealing with dingbats who skim posts looking for shit to attack others on pnstead of allowing different points of view consideration.
When I was talking about attitudes towards Libya, I deliberately emphasised the underlying imagery the media use to create false perceptions.
Hubris may not think that fox tv has done a good job of promoting the doubts about Libya that are expressed in the media every day. That is coz amerika doesn't have much of a role in the post Gadhafi Libyan scam.
This is mainly a england euro thing - it is the greedies in those societies that are going to profit from the theft of Libya's resources. Theft made more difficult if the media those societies are question the morality of doing bizness with Libya. Which is happening now.
The Syria destruction requires engagement by all of fukusi at one level or another and it is important to the planners that the politician puppets do not get implicated in some disaster before their political usefulness has worn out. They still have other scams to pull. S1mpl enuff 4 u?
My position on Syria has always been the same. I don't like the current mob much - they didn't do a tenth of the good works that ghaddaffi did to offset his later years, but as much as I dislike the ba'athists I dislike the puppet masters of the 'rebels' much more, and I like the syrian rebels a lot less than the ba'athists.
The ba'athists got corrupted by power - it happens everywhere to every political movement, however the leadership of the syrian "murderers in the name of allah" have been corrupted long before they got near power which tells me that they are true sociopaths.
It is interesting to hear some mixed up contrarian wannabe libertarian say that he/she believes the biggest problem today is the elite’s determination to deny the existence of societies. I think I posted on that a couple of months back, how thatcher had always maintained that the family was the only genuine human entity and how that meme has now been spread throughout the neo-liberal dominated cultures.
The trouble with mouthing such a statement is that everything about the way she/he operates is in accordance with neolibs planning to destroy the foundations of social thinking.
E.G. The emphasis on attacking others who don't share his/her exact point of view, rather than going after the pricks stealing everything is classic neo-liberal acquiescence.
Every conflict from the 1938 to 45 european war onwards has used the white/unwhite subtext to motivate european people into killing.
If hubris had been paying attention during the beginning of the post tito balkan break-up he would have seen western media defining the people of the balkans as token unwhites. The most famous and oft repeated example being PJ OReilly in Rolling Stone when he termed the conflict as "the unspellables Vs the unpronounceables".
Come to think of it WW1 was the same, my cousin is married to the son of a Dalmatian immigrant to NZ. I can remember the old man telling me he first heard about aotearoa/new zealand when he was in the Austro Hungarian army fighting in the trenches, they were told to be very careful of kiwi troops since the 'maoris' would eat them if they beat them.
My mother’s oldest brothers died fighting on the other side first of all at Gallipoli where the poor bloody Turkish draftees were butchered more easily because they weren't "white like us". both sides fed the same bullshit
By making former yugoslavs token unwhite, the unwhites could then be graded using a form of what is best described as anthropomorphism since only white people are humans if yer a white supremacist, some unwhites are more tameable and therefore lovable than others and some are just plain 'cute n cuddly' cause they are "so primitive".
The serbians became the untameable stubborn unwhites and the albanians the cite n cuddly primitives. Meanwhile the Croats & Slovenes whose butt fucking by austria and germany dates back many centuries, became the wanna-be whites why cause they were catholic not orthodox some of this stuff goes back millennia to the break-up of the holy roman empire and the assholes who play on people's fears as though they are instruments in a billion piece orchestra, know every note that is available. It was less than 50 years before that Kurt Waldheim & Co declared Serbians unter-mensch. It worked in 1943 why wouldn't it work in 1993?
alla this silly sniping works well to distract everyone from the job. alla this silly sniping works well to distract everyone from the job. Division is an essential tool in the elite’s armoury. The big one is ensuring anti-boomer hysteria gets to the top of every young dissident’s list of concerns.
I have stopped my counterpunch fix since a.c. karked it but some days I can't help but drop by in the hope his death was all a lie.
That is how I picked up on http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/07/27/what-is-to-be-done-now/”>this self-serving trash.
It is an attempt by some old school Marxist Leninist to blame the failure of Occupy on its lack of leaders. V.I. Lenin is heavily quoted but much as I respect Lenin’s work in changing Russia we need to remember that he was at heart just another politician. The principle attributed to Lenin in that article should be scrutinised and imo, rejected:
The most basic of those principles is that, for fundamental political change, leadership and direction is indispensable. To put the point in a way that sounds hopelessly anachronistic: insurgent masses need a revolutionary vanguard.
A modern society inhabited by an informed populace doesn’t need leaders much less the politicians who inevitably get the leader’s gig, because as above, power corrupts.
Instead of re-inventing the wheel, or failing to understand that the last parts of the planet whose resources are as yet unexploited by greedheads are owned by the indigenous occupants - none of whom are white, or expending energy needed for the fight against greed on pointless intergenerational conflict; peeps who want to effect real change could put their minds to devising a structure for change which wasn’t personality or leadership driven.
This is the task that a few of us have set ourselves down here. It is achievable as long as activists are at pains to both maintain anonymity and credibly assert that they have no desire to attain political control.
It is certainly needed here because once the ‘occupy’ movement established itself here the dearth of leaders was exploited by media vandals and idjit aged wanna-be revolutionaries who were inevitably considered by the media to be a renta-mob and by young people as just another boomer burn.
Still as eager as some younger activists are to sledge ‘the boomers’ for selfishness and lack of engagement, their lack of trust in any political movement prevents the development of an effective strategy for change.
If the perversion of young Arabs best efforts to obtain change offends you and you live in the west, perhaps you should ask yourself whether young Arabs would prefer a microscopic examination of every detail of the destruction or a concerted effort by peeps in the west to stop their society from interfering in Arab societies.
Anonymity can be an effective means for disseminating knowledge, but on its own unsupported by ID and therefore recognition, it is just too easy for the greedies to subvert reform by employing sockpuppets that divide and misinform.
That doesn’t mean Lenin was right that change requires a commenter, but it does mean there is a lot of work to be done by those who seek change to design effective decentralised replacements for those tasks which up until now have been undertaken by ‘the leadership’.
So instead of trainspotting every last detail of the Syrian horror or attempting to assuage the pain of a fucked up childhood authority figure by attacking anyone over a certain age for merely being , why not grab hold of some peers n devote some energy into designing and building a viable leaderless (and therefore politics reduced) machine for change?
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 31 2012 5:35 utc | 99
shit sorry bout the lack of editing but I'm already late for much in the real world.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 31 2012 5:41 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
Most optimistic interpretation: they lost and are trying to walk it back. Erdo has egg on his face and will have to answer for betting it all on a large pot and loosing big. If the assassination stories on presstv are true, then perhaps KSA and Qatar are having second thoughts. I mean that prince bandar is a tough mother $&@; as long as his own skin isn't on the line.
For the US? Blocked at the unsc, not so keen on a new war before election time and not much enthusiasm in Europe for a war against someone who might fight back.
Less optimistic (but still positive) interpretation is that the MSM couldn't keep lying with a straight face in the presence of the Internet and alternative media. Had this been Kosovo 1999, it could have been much worse.
As always, great coverage, b.
Posted by: Lysander | Jul 28 2012 18:15 utc | 1