Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 08, 2012

Open Thread 2012-19

So what's on your mind ...

Posted by b on July 8, 2012 at 16:33 UTC | Permalink

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It was a week to make heads spin, even for the most cynical.

LIBOR, the biggest price fixing scandal ever.
Romney's buddy Netanyahu connected to nuclear smuggling.
Fukushima exposed as a man made disaster.

And, of course, you will see none of this on the nightly news.

Posted by: JohnH | Jul 8 2012 18:41 utc | 1

Assad did an interview in the state-owned german television ARD.

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/gespraech-assad-englisch100.html

Posted by: clayt0n | Jul 8 2012 20:07 utc | 2

A. Cockburn declared Occupy dead on Friday. he seems pretty pissed the kids these days don't know history.

here's a lengthy bit from the article:

It was very hard not to be swept away by the Occupy movement which established itself in New York’s Zuccotti Park last September and soon spread to Oakland, Chicago, London and Madrid. And indeed most people didn’t resist its allure.
 
Leninists threw aside their Marxist primers on party organisation and drained the full anarchist cocktail.

The Occupiers , with their “people’s mic”, were always a little hard to understand. And as with all movements involving consensus, everything took a very long time.
 
Was there perhaps a leader, a small leadership group, sequestered somewhere among the tents and clutter? It was impossible to say and at that point somewhat disloyal to pose the question. Cynicism about Occupy was not a popular commodity.
 
But new movements always need a measure of cynicism dumped on them. Questions of organization were obliterated by the strength of the basic message – we are 99 per cent, they are one per cent. It was probably the most successful slogan since ‘peace, land, bread’.

The Occupy Wall Street assembly in Zuccotti Park soon developed its own cultural mores, drumming included. Like many onlookers, I asked myself, Where the hell’s the plan?

But I held my tongue. I had no particular better idea and for a CounterPuncher of mature years to start laying down the program seemed cocky. But, deep down, I felt that Occupy, with all its fancy talk, all its endless speechifying, was riding for a fall.

Before the fall came there were heroic actions, people battered senseless by the police. These were brave people trying to hold their ground.

There were other features that I think quite a large number of people found annoying: the cult of the internet, the tweeting and so forth, and I definitely didn’t like the enormous arrogance which prompted the Occupiers to claim that they were indeed the most important radical surge in living memory.

Where was the knowledge of, let along the respect for the past? We had the non-violent resistors of the Forties organising against the war with enormous courage. The Fifties saw leftists took McCarthyism full on the chin. With the Sixties we were making efforts at revolutionary organisation and resistance.
 
Yet when one raised this history with someone from Occupy, I encountered total indifference.

There also seemed to be a serious level of political naivety about the shape of the society they were seeking to change. They definitely thought that it could be reshaped – the notion that the whole system was unfixable did not get much of a hearing.
 
After a while it seemed as though, in Tom Naylor’s question in this site: “Is it possible that the real purpose of Occupy Wall Street has little to do with either the 99 per cent or the one per cent, but rather everything to do with keeping the political left in America decentralised, widely dispersed, very busy, and completely impotent to deal with the collapse of the American empire…

I think it's a bunch of bullshit for this boomer to declare from his cranky leftist pedestal the failure of the subsequent generation's political awakening after less than a year of its development.

if my generation is failing--and I'm not saying we're not--then I think that says more about the preceding generation than it does ours.

Posted by: lizard | Jul 8 2012 20:26 utc | 3

yes and the guy interviewing him is Jürgen Todenhöfer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Todenh%C3%B6fer

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2012 21:11 utc | 4

Among the many implications of the LIBOR revelations that are rarely discussed is the impact that interest rate manipulations have on sovereign debt.

The argument for suspension of interest payments until a proper audit of, for example, the Greek national debt is pretty well indisputable. As to the burden imposed on Ireland's long suffering punters, future generations will not believe what the banks have got away with.

Then there is the cost to, again for example, the citizens of Birmingham Alabama and almost all other municipalities in the States who are laying off staff, cutting services and imposing enormous user fees to repay debts which are certainly fraudulent.

These crooks are in the position of gamblers caught doping horses, except that they are going to get all their ill-gotten gains, and collect the expenses incurred in the commission of their crimes.

Lizard, it is hard to see this capitalist crisis as a clash between generations, rather than classes but go right ahead, 1% will be cheering you on.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 8 2012 21:39 utc | 5

obituary of the Syrian Revolution
@hogo900 : "with all what we have. Thanks." End
@hogo900 : "only then would it be possible to decide which is the better stance. As for now, the best option is to support the people..."
@hogo900 : "It is too late to stop the bleeding. What is left is for a powerful force to push the current toward a specific destination;..."
@hogo900 : "intervention or with a raging people who intend to destroy everything in order to rebuild it?"
@hogo900 : "and return to a process of vertical change. I admit that I don't know where I stand: W my colleagues who r salivating for..."
@hogo900: "I admit that current calls for intervention r diff to initial calls. Present calls are an attempt to stop the popular rev..."
@hogo900 : "I admit that liberals have not yet found 1 answer to what ought to be done. Pull out or continue w an altered & ambiguous rev?"
@hogo900 : "everything and reconstruction will be expensive and uncertain."
@hogo900 : "I admit that the development of the movement into a popular rev was not intended, because it means the destruction of..."
@hogo900 "I admit the liberal&peaceful project failed as soon as the regime reacted w force,bt liberals continued believing in the project."
@hogo900 : "to gain inroads into Syria when they had none, and they succeeded, together with the regime, in militarizing the revolution."
@hogo900 : "And sources of funding are in the hands of friends to the MB & salafists, a fact that made it possible for these two groups..."
@hogo900 : "were executed in a way that marketed the Libyan scenario&pushed people to arms,& in the process tied them to sources of funding"
@hogo900 : "feared the movement as much as the regime. And I admit that calls for a buffer zone and a UNSC decision under Chapter 7..."
@hogo900 : "I admit that Islamists participated in the movement from the beginning; they were peaceful & moderate, but Syrian MB abroad..."
@hogo900 : "I admit that the idea of pressuring the regime toward change (as in Egypt) was a stupid one"
@hogo900 : "I'll say that we failed in that regard as soon as the regime decided to treat the movement as a security issue."
@hogo900 "The goal initially was change from within the regime, not revolution, because of fears of sectarian fissures"
@hogo900 : "Most of those who began planning for peaceful change were liberals; Islamists didn't have a significant role"
@hogo900: "I'll summarize in the following tweets my views on & experience of the rev as someone who has lived with it from the beginning"

Posted by: somebody | Jul 8 2012 21:47 utc | 6

there is good news too! India is going to provide free medicine to its people!

what an example of kindness!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/india-to-provide-free-generic-drugs/article4391193/

Posted by: lambent1 | Jul 9 2012 0:20 utc | 7

It seems Saudi Arabia has shot and arrested Shiite cleric Nimr al Nimr. This is causing serious demonstrations in Eastern KSA and will likely ignite Bahrain even more. Via Angry Arab, here are some youtubes of the demos In Qatif and 'Awamiya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwFKnR6ZOiQ&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btpeKOGgTxc&feature=player_embedded#!

They are saying the people want the down fall of the regime. Live Ammo has been used and some demonstrators have been killed.

This one in Riyadh is saying the people demand freedom for the prisoners. So it is (hopefully) not confined to the Shiite areas in KSA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BleTkx6nsyU&feature=player_embedded

Repost in as many places as you can. How I pray for the fall of the Saudi government.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 9 2012 0:26 utc | 8

@lizard - I agree with what you say, but I'm also a long-time subscriber to Counterpunch, for which I have great respect; let's say that everyone should be more open at the other's point of view: after all history is important :-)

if my generation is failing--and I'm not saying we're not--then I think that says more about the preceding generation than it does ours.

sadly true

Posted by: claudio | Jul 9 2012 0:42 utc | 9

July 5th was Algeria's independence day. Think about it. in 1962, that's over 17 years after the end of the 2nd world war, the war to liberate the people of the world from tyranny, (sigh) and over 17 years after the establishment of the UN.

The Algeria war killed over 900,000 people from 1957 to 1962. Egypt is attacked by Britain, France and ISrael in 1956, 4 years after Egypt receievd its independence. The Korean War was fought from 1950 to 1953, as America decided it will not allow communists to rule the east, the Vietnam war which escalated in 1955 when the US decided to take over from France, IRAN's Govt is toppled by , well you know .......I can keep going about what was going on in the world since we fought the second world war to rid the world of tyranny, but somehow, those who won, weren't paying attention to this message.

I just finished watching the battle for algeria on DVD. My wife wondered out loud, how could the french get away with this after millions of people died in the 2nd world war and how many hundreds of thousands of soldiers trying to free France and Europe. And what the hell was the United Nations doing. All i can think of replying is this. In 1948, when the United nations was being established, one of its first orders of business, is creating a foreign entity in the middle east, Israel, and displacing hundreds of thousands of civilians making them refugess for the rest of their lives. What do you think the UN was established for. Look at the state the world is in today. Did we really get rid of tyranny and the bad guys or did we just give the bad guys legitimacy and called it the UN. Time for more whiskey, you know why.

Posted by: ana souri | Jul 9 2012 1:06 utc | 10

@bevin, I didn't say the capitalist crisis is a clash of generations, but there are certainly generational aspects of how the crisis will evolve.

like, for example, 80 million Baby Boomers entering the age of (not aquarius) retirement, and more of them needing their SSI check because Wall Street evaporated 40% of accumulated wealth.

and how do you think the US health care system is set up to handle the medical needs of 80 million aging bodies?

then there's the increased unemployment rates for the 18-24 age group, much higher than the national average, and the trillion dollar debt in student loans.

finally, when Cockburn says this: the notion that the whole system was unfixable did not get much of a hearing.
 I really get pissed.

that road is paralysis, and paralysis is death without a fight.

fuck that.

during my darker moments, I black-heartedly welcome collapse. but I'm not going to tell my kids that, and I'm not going to tell my staff at the homeless shelter that, because then what's the fucking point? do we scrape by, doing the small things we can to make a few things better, or do we hasten collapse? and how should we do that? and who will be hurt?

I've got kids now. I'm firmly invested in their future. Cockburn wants to talk about the past and be cynical. I don't see where that gets us. just darker and deeper into...nothing.

you get the point, right?

@claudio, I respect counterpunch as well, but declaring this movement dead is a premature, arrogant call that I have a hard time stomaching.

and getting annoyed over how Occupy uses the internet? thanks Luddite Cockburn. I guess he's just doing the cynicism "dumping" he seems to think all movements need.

it's definitely important to understand history, but more importantly, it might be better to try and figure out why past movements have yet to produce a more just, equitable country.

sure, we don't lynch niggers anymore, but we incarcerate a sickening high rate of "minorities" we let women vote, but are hard pressed to stop the onslaught of attacks they're sustaining from the Christian Taliban. environmentalists are scorned, job-killing eco-terrorists. and Democrats have abandoned labor for the siren song of neoliberalism.

Posted by: lizard | Jul 9 2012 2:45 utc | 11

* this may be a double post, but I screwed up the ordering of my last comment, so here's the correct one:

@bevin, I didn't say the capitalist crisis is a clash of generations, but there are certainly generational aspects of how the crisis will evolve.

like, for example, 80 million Baby Boomers entering the age of (not aquarius) retirement, and more of them needing their SSI check because Wall Street evaporated 40% of accumulated wealth.

and how do you think the US health care system is set up to handle the medical needs of 80 million aging bodies?

then there's the increased unemployment rates for the 18-24 age group, much higher than the national average, and the trillion dollar debt in student loans.

you get the point, right?

@claudio, I respect counterpunch as well, but declaring this movement dead is a premature, arrogant call that I have a hard time stomaching.

and getting annoyed over how Occupy uses the internet? thanks Luddite Cockburn. I guess he's just doing the cynicism "dumping" he seems to think all movements need.

it's definitely important to understand history, but more importantly, it might be better to try and figure out why past movements have yet to produce a more just, equitable country.

sure, we don't lynch niggers anymore, but we incarcerate a sickening high rate of "minorities" we let women vote, but are hard pressed to stop the onslaught of attacks they're sustaining from the Christian Taliban. environmentalists are scorned, job-killing eco-terrorists. and Democrats have abandoned labor for the siren song of neoliberalism.

finally, when Cockburn says this: the notion that the whole system was unfixable did not get much of a hearing.
 I really get pissed.

that road is paralysis, and paralysis is death without a fight.

fuck that.

during my darker moments, I black-heartedly welcome collapse. but I'm not going to tell my kids that, and I'm not going to tell my staff at the homeless shelter that, because then what's the fucking point? do we scrape by, doing the small things we can to make a few things better, or do we hasten collapse? and how should we do that? and who will be hurt?

I've got kids now. I'm firmly invested in their future. Cockburn wants to talk about the past and be cynical. I don't see where that gets us. just darker and deeper into...nothing.

Posted by: lizard | Jul 9 2012 2:50 utc | 12

Amusing little incident on the internet today...

Went to download the latest full version of the CIA Factbook from the CIA website, which has some very useful aggregations & comparisons of various country statistics - you just need to take some with a grain of salt while having a chuckle at the various country write-ups.

Anyway, started to download & boom, it cuts off.
Try again, it cuts off sooner - then I can't even access the page to download when I try to reload it.

So go to one of the US based proxy sites, load it up, & it downloads instantly at a very fast speed.

So I'm kind of wondering - is this just because I'm trying to download from another country (Australia in this case - very firm & committed lapdog for the US in most things), or has my IP address been automatically flagged for posting on various sites & is being blocked from various services...

Anyone else had something similar lately?

Posted by: KenM | Jul 9 2012 5:17 utc | 13

don't make up history ana souri. The league of nations was founded after the first world war http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/league_nations_01.shtml

and this here is Haile Selassie asking for help against Italy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kH6Qt4oG34

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 6:01 utc | 14

KenM, you would be very rare to access the internet by a fixed IP address, if blocked, your provider would have to be blocked. It might be any server on the way ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 6:03 utc | 15

the Washington Post very casually states that humanitarian aid is used as cover for special forces
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/mysterious-fatal-crash-provides-rare-glimpse-of-us-commandos-in-mali/2012/07/08/gJQAGO71WW_story.html


"In many countries, including most in Africa, Special Operations forces work openly to distribute humanitarian aid and train local militaries. At times, the civil-affairs assignments can provide credible cover for clandestine counterterrorism units.

But in Mali, U.S. military personnel had ceased all training and civil-affairs work by the end of March, about a week after the country’s democratically elected president was overthrown in a military coup.

The military’s Africa Command, which oversees operations on the continent, said the three service members killed were among “a small number of personnel” who had been aiding the Malian military before the coup and had remained in the country to “provide assistance to the U.S. Embassy” and “maintain situational awareness on the unfolding events.”

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 6:41 utc | 16

Mitt Romney: "U.S. cannot survive, if Iran could become nuclear"

This is the core sentence of an interview with Mitt Romney June 17:

We cannot survive a-- a course of action which would include a nuclear Iran, and we must be willing to take any and all action, they must all-- all those actions must be on the table.

On must realize, that it is not about a nuclear Iran, but already about the possibility of Iran becoming nuclear.

Romney claims the U.S. "cannot survive" this!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57454827/face-the-nation-transcripts-june-17-2012-gov-romney-senator-graham-gov-dean/?pageNum=3&tag=contentMain;contentBody

Note also the speech by Senator Ron Paul in Mai 2012:

http://paul.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1974&Itemid=60

Posted by: Antifo | Jul 9 2012 7:59 utc | 17

Everything you’ve heard about Syria is a lie says Ankhar Kochneva, a Russian journalist who has seen first hand the realities of the Syrian civil war. Kochneva told RT she has proof a Western invasion of Syria will be launched by summer’s end.
RT: While visiting Turkish camps for Syrian refugees, I was told that the Syrian army was shooting at them.
Ankhar Kochneva: There are a large number of videos from those camps showing people walking upright, not ducking down even though you can hear shooting. The options are that either the sound was added to the video later, or that people knew that they were only shooting in the air without any intention of actually hitting them.
The Syrian army has no reason to shoot up these camps, as Syria is doing its utmost to ensure these people return home. And in fact they are doing just that if you go by the official Syrian data; 16,500 people have returned. Meanwhile, Turkey and the Syrian opposition are strongly interested in having those camps. If it weren’t for these camps, who would believe in the regime’s atrocities described by the opposition?
etc
http://www.rt.com/news/syria-lies-invasion-reality-interview-671/

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2012 8:18 utc | 18

'Mitt Romney: "U.S. cannot survive, if Iran could become nuclear"'

what this fellow means to say is : 'Mitt Romney: "Israel cannot survive, if Iran could become nuclear"

just about every american politician is now israel first

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2012 8:19 utc | 19

'I just finished watching the battle for algeria on DVD. My wife wondered out loud, how could the french get away with this after millions of people died in the 2nd world war and how many hundreds of thousands of soldiers trying to free France and Europe. And what the hell was the United Nations doing. '

Posted by: ana souri | Jul 8, 2012 9:06:19 PM | 10

Soldiers are trained to kill..not to think,...if their leaders tell them to go quell rebellions in the corners of the french empire they do..The japanese were right when they initially set their Coprosperity Sphere against Europeamn colonialism...Most states are ruled by sociopaths... sometimes one set of sociopaths attacks another...that doesnt mean those attacked cease to be sociopaths. Given the chance those who were once victims will be come agressors

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2012 8:24 utc | 20

Iran Can Sue US And Israel Over Threats

- - - July 07, 2012 "Information Clearing House" -- Professor Francis A. Boyle has made a proposal to the Government of Iran that it sue the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Israel and other European States over the current crisis in the Persian Gulf that creates an imminent threat of igniting World War III.

Professor Boyle said, "If Obama attacks Iran, he could set off World War III. I want to stop that."

It is his hope and expectation that such lawsuits would result in the World Court issuing temporary restraining orders against these states to cease and desist from committing all threats and aggressive military actions against Iran and to negotiate with Iran in good faith over the dispute concerning nuclear re-processing.

His initiative is spelled out in more detail in this video. Everyone in the world must demand from their own governments that this dispute be resolved by means of diplomacy and international law, not the threat and use of force and war.

In an article publsihed on www.PressTV.com Mr Boyle said, “I’ve been a lawyer since January 10, 1977. And if someone is ignoring to talk to you sue them, and then they have to talk to you,” says Boyle, professor of international law at the university.

“But if the US government is not going to do that (accept to negotiate), then it seems to me Iran should sue them at the World Court, and protect itself and then by means of the World Court proceedings, force negotiations which Iran can do...,” he noted.

Boyle said “…if the crisis escalates certainly it would be my advice that Iran follow this lawsuit against these three states (US, UK, and France), ask for the emergency hearing of the court, win these three orders, and try to use those orders to prevent a war."

“The restraining order would be to prevent a military attack on Iran, to prevent any type of blockade of Iran…to prevent the imposition of further economic sanctions by these three states against Iran, and also their pursuit of more sanctions against Iran at the United Nations Security Council.”

He referred to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA)’s failure to detect any sort of diversion in Iran's nuclear energy program towards military purposes.

“So if the US government is not prepared to engage in reasonable, direct, unconditional, good faith negotiations with Iran, then my advice is that the Iranian government go forward with this lawsuit.”

The United States, Israel, and some of their allies, accuse Iran of pursuing military objectives in its nuclear energy program. Washington and Tel Aviv have time and again threatened Tehran with the "option" of a military strike against its civilian nuclear facilities.

Iran argues that as a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and a member of the IAEA, it has the right to develop and acquire nuclear technology for peaceful purposes".
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31790.htm

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2012 8:48 utc | 21

'Second, the regime-changers have gone to great lengths to actively promote "cracks" in these communities. This includes widespread misinformation campaigns as outlined by Stratfor last December, and through carefully calibrated unconventional warfare tactics as explained in this article. A slew of current and former regime officials/confidantes have been approached by external parties this past year to - if necessary - manufacture these fissures. One former senior government official who is known to be dissatisfied with Assad's performance has told me personally that he was offered a specific large sum of money by the US Congress - brokered by a third nation - just to show up at a critical "Friends of Syria" opposition meeting. Gaining key defections from Syria has become that important.'
http://english.al-akhbar.com/blogs/sandbox/syrian-general-manaf-tlass-neither-here-nor-there

Posted by: brian | Jul 9 2012 12:31 utc | 22

It's quite strange, when they have to beef up the revolt, as it basically isn't a viable movement by itself. That should raise some questions in the mainstream, sadly only a few of the sharpest heads in the west see it for what it is.

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 9 2012 13:18 utc | 23

"That should raise some questions in the mainstream, sadly only a few of the sharpest heads in the west see it for what it is."

heehee - are you out to try and flatter about 80% of those commenting here, Alexander?

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 9 2012 13:41 utc | 24

Libyan elections produce surprise,the NATO stooge wins!The Muslim Brotherhood candidate,expected to win 60% of seats,gets less than 25%.
Ah,Shillary,music to your corrupt and idiotic ears.
Remember,it's not who votes,but who counts the votes that count.
And Obomba is proud of his sodomization and murder campaign.
Oy!The monsters is dancin!

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 9 2012 13:57 utc | 25

Yesterday's Saudi protest is not reported on the front page of any major western news site

Posted by: nikon | Jul 9 2012 14:18 utc | 26

via Aangirfan - http://aangirfan.blogspot.de/2012/07/cia-linked-jibril-wins-in-libya.html

"According to Voltairenet (http://www.voltairenet.org/Wadah-Khanfar-Al-Jazeera-and-the):

1. Qatar's Sheikh Hamad brought in a firm called JTrack to help al-Jazeera.

"From Morocco to Singapore, JTrack has trained most of the political leaders backed by the United States and Israel, often mere heredity puppets..."

2. The boss of JTrack is Mahmoud Jibril."

Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 9 2012 14:19 utc | 27

If Occupy isn't dead, where's the life? Maybe it's just dormant?

IMHO the young have enough motive to demonstrate--lack of jobs and high student loans. They seem to lack a sense of solidarity or any willingness to act for the common good.

Personally, I stopped demonstrating in 2003 after I went across the country to participate in a demonstration against the Iraq War. Only 40,000 people showed up. It was pathetic. I'll be back on the streets as soon as I sense a little life in the movement.

Woody Allen once said that showing up is half of success. The young seem to have missed that point.

Posted by: JohnH | Jul 9 2012 14:26 utc | 28

an old lady venting anger and frustration, or something nasty is brewing in the whitch's cauldron?

Clinton: Syria must end violence to avoid "catastrophic assault"

Posted by: claudio | Jul 9 2012 15:41 utc | 29

John H @ 28 -- Perhaps in this current economy in the US and much of Europe, when jobs are extremely scarce and the young, whether with high school or university educations, are not being hired, they may live with the fear of never making it, of never getting a decent job much less a great one. Perhaps knowing that anything, any little thing, can get them scratched off the "possible hires" list, maybe the heavy handed enforcement by campus and municipal police (at the Obama administration urging and connivance?) in arresting Occupy protesters could be more daunting than we imagine.

Back in the '70's being an anti-Vietnam War protester, in many occupations, would be considered a badge of honor and an indication the person could analyze and think critically. Now? Making waves is not considered a good thing....

Also, Occupy did not get much support from any Powers That Be, as opposed to the Tea Party which was launched by a tirade of a business reporter (FOX, was it?) and then supported and nurtured by incredibly good press coverage and Koch Bros. type money. At this time, the Baby Boomers were terrified of losing their jobs if seen in Occupy or arrested. The retirees and youth carried a lot of the Occupy movement -- and holding full bladders becomes more difficult for some of the older folks, so sleeping rough with no ready toilet facilities can be...difficult.

Occupy did result, for many months, in the MCM being forced to discuss economic and financial industry issues which had been mostly considered only on the edges of discourse (like blogs). That was a huge accomplishment. And this is now sorely missed in ongoing coverage of banksters and their malfeasance and crimes. I'm amazed at how little coverage the LIBOR revelations are receiving; it seem to almost be down the Memory Hole already.

The use of "99 Percenter" and "the One Percent" continues, but has less presence in the MCM.

Spring did not bring a resugence of Occupy. I don't know what can help that. But we need it or something very like it.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 9 2012 16:06 utc | 30

Hu @ 24

I was referring to the university ME Syria experts, at least in Norway, who all seem to be blinded by the western media.

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 9 2012 16:10 utc | 31

claudio @ 29 -- Probably, since Hillary knows just how much materiel and assistance in the form of special ops soldiers/mercenaries is being provided to the "rebels," she knows very well what damage they will soon be able to inflict. Hardly crazy. Bad, and mad to do so, yes; but not just anger and frustration.

And Obama is the one authorizing any such statements. Secretaries of State do nothing, or not for very long at least, without the full buy-in from or initiation of the president.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 9 2012 16:12 utc | 32

While Clinton seems to be giving every sign of someone losing the plot - one day playing nice with Lavrov & sounding almost reasonable, then turning around the next day & going completely off the rails with over-the-top threats, & coming off as completely unreliable to the people she's supposed to be dealing with;
- I think her actions have more to do with outflanking Susan Rice & the band of rival lobbies lining up behind her faction...

None of them seem to have the slightest care how their little internal wars play over into the outside world (which I'm not sure any of them recognise the existence of anyway) or even how it affects the immediate prospects of whatever they are supposedly selling - positioning in the lobbying cue is everything...


RE: being blocked, I do have a fixed IP address, which seems to be standard with my internet provider, so no problem with them finding it out - was just wondering whether it was a country thing or a personal thing:
The US already blocks a lot of info & media sites to any foreign IP address as it is - are they now actually blocking there own official gov. propaganda/info to foreigners as well?
Seems a little counter-productive to me, but this is the US, & all kinds of crazy stuff is floating around...

Posted by: KenM | Jul 9 2012 16:12 utc | 33

I remember from the last Gulf-war, US media control deliberately kept two different narratives in Europe and in the USA. Might be some of that sort going on on a trans-Atlantic scale on the Internet too.

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 9 2012 16:23 utc | 34

Maybe Hillary is trying to "persuade" Assad to step down by talking about violence inside Syria which will destroy it as a nation. She's said things which indicate the West wants Syria intact, but under different leadership. Now, she's talking about the state being splintered and destroyed, so perhaps that's her threat. (Again, with Obama's full backing.)

Somehow, I think the West has gone too far in arming and enabling the more radical and violent forces within Syria. Bringing in some of those forces, of course. I fear that without Assad's government gaining the upper hand, and then establishing the stability necessary for free elections, there will be little hope of elections working to set up a more democratic Syria.

And Assad will be blamed for not acting soon enough on any number of areas. I hope B's take is more prescient than mine.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 9 2012 16:25 utc | 35

It now looks like both the 6. and the 7. largest oil-suppliers in the world will be taken out of the market. In addition to Iran, Norwegian oildeliveries might be disrupted due to a disagreement between workers and employers in the off-shore drilling-buissiness in Norway, starting tomorrow - when employers will start a lock-out of all workers of whom some have been on strike lately.

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 9 2012 16:33 utc | 36

David Dayen at Firedoglake writes that the recent agreement among EU leading nations has turned out to not protect the sovereign nations from banksterism -- and interest rates are soaring again.

And this will lead to...what?

Is Dayen's summary and veiw of only two choices accurate?

So all the work of the summit has basically disintegrated. Parts of Europe remains a basket case, because the countries cannot agree on what needs to be done. They won’t integrate into a United States of Europe and they won’t blow up the Eurozone and end the currency union, which is unworkable without that integration. Those are really the only two choices.

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 9 2012 16:34 utc | 37

yep, jawbone, that is accurate. I guess there will be the Euro plus local currencies ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 16:41 utc | 38

like this
http://www.worldcrunch.com/neither-euro-nor-drachma-could-new-geuro-currency-save-greece/5425

there will have to be transfer payments however, or part of Europe will be bought by Gulf countries ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 16:43 utc | 39

I definitely suspect the internet is being scrubbed. I think SANA and FARS have been selectively hijacked. For instance, on the Turkish plane incident Syria initially claimed to have recovered the plane with machine gun holes in the tail. Following international law (would the West have done the same?), Syria evidently returned the plane after recording "evidence."

Turkey denied the plane was recovered and a week later claimed to find boots and helmets in the water, and then the wreckage and bodies almost 9 miles out.

Did Syria really never say anything else about it? Even the NYTimes made fun of SANA saying the piece on the plane was really long. Why would SANA be long-winded early on but then totally remain silent the rest of the time?

Also, I get the sense the defection story is being suppressed. As brian has linked to here, some people reported it was fake. Why don't we have an official response from the government?

Also, wasn't the Obama administration openly considering using propaganda against the American people? I assume they think hijacking SANA and FARS is legal (even on a country specific level or even just excising a few stories). But the open discussion of even more propaganda acts probably means they are already doing much worse.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 16:57 utc | 40

• Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov has held talks with Syrian opposition leader Michel Kilo in Moscow. Kilo is reported to have told a Russian radio station that the defected general Manaf Tlass could play a role in a transition government.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jul/09/syria-libya-egypt-live?newsfeed=true

:-))

you don't need a conspiracy theory for that ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 17:07 utc | 41

Somebody @ 41,

Once again the evidence comes from an "opposition" person/group. Just like the report that Josh Landis originally reported (and the Guardian refused to run--ha--I loved the staged fake professionalism). And, just like the statement that was supposedly issued by the man Manaf Tlass himself.

If he's the real deal he would have been on television already. He's probably been kidnapped and drugged and is probably undergoing torture as we write.

These opposition groups have been caught lying so many times it really is ridiculous the Guardian and MSM still have their pages filled with their fantasies. Talk about conspiracy theories! For e.g., the guy running the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights out of London is more of a fabulist than any conspiracy person I know. http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2012/06/wests-syrian-narrative-based-on-guy-in.html

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 17:15 utc | 42

@Walter Wit Man - could be just the opposite, a fake opposer that Russia helps to turn in an asset for a "pluralistic" government

who knows?

no need, anyway, to exorcise news we don't control; doesn't make much difference, anyways

Posted by: claudio | Jul 9 2012 17:22 utc | 43

claudio,

I don't understand. Do you mean Russia could be helping Manaf Tlass to "defect" and to use him to form a new government?

Yeah. Could be. I am apparently in the minority opinion here in that I suspect Russia of actually being in cahoots with the west. But I would be surprised if Russia were taking a lead role rather than simply being used in the story. But yeah, Obama and Clinton could be just as much perps as Lavrov.

I wonder if the talk of him running a new government isn't meant as propaganda towards him . . . imagine him being tortured and held prisoner in a room and his abusers tell him "c'mon Manaf, you have an easy way out, we pay you millions of dollars, your family lives, and you even might get to be leader of the new government! C'mon, why are you making this difficult? Just make a speech on television condemning the 'regime's crimes.'"

And of course these handlers will never let him rule by himself because if he has held out this long he will never be trusted to run the country like the CIA stooges now in control of Egypt and Libya.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 17:42 utc | 44

To follow up on my hypothetical torture scenario . . . then after a couple days of drugging and mind control have taken their effect they can show Manaf newspaper articles where his name is being mentioned as a possible leader . . . plus they will show him the other stories that have already laid his cover story down. All he needs to do is agree to give a very short speech . . . .

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 17:44 utc | 45

.. all you have to assume Walter Man, is that Manas Tlass is a very well connected person who left Syria ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 18:38 utc | 46

@ somebody 46,

Do we know Manas Tlass has left Syria? Do we have any independent verification about his whereabouts? We have a lot of dodgy information in the MSM and places like Josh Landis' blog that simply repeat "opposition" claims.

Why no visual confirmation one way or the other?

And this is the only official I'm aware of that hints at having direct knowledge of the defection: "Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius of France told the meeting that a “senior official” and commander of the Republican Guard had “defected and is on his way to Paris.” Ministry officials confirmed that Mr. Fabius was referring to General Tlass but did not say whether the Syrian general would join the talks." reports the New York Times via Penny's blog: http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com/2012/07/alleged-defection-of-manaf-tlass.html

It's possible he was on his way to France (maybe to see his sick father) but who knows. We really don't know anything and it's foolish to assume anything other than the west has been using a pack of lies against Syria. Really, we should assume all the news is made up because there simply are too many red flags and they have been pushing lie after lie. They are ratcheting up the propaganda probably because they have already started the war and the killing will intensify soon.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 19:12 utc | 47

How come you read the news, Walter? Maybe you should just switch everything off and let the blinds down?


In other news, al Jazeera lost its mind reporting on Syria again ...

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2012/07/201278104350616752.html

"Even so, the rebels are making progress.

As observed by Al Jazeera, a successful assault was staged on the main headquarters of government forces, a town hall.

After taking control of the building, the fighters demolished it so it could not be retaken."

There must be real strategic geniuses among the rebels to use scorched earth ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 19:55 utc | 48

A speech by Nimr al Nimr:

http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewkey=d4f72527c2499ba452cf

Interesting.

Posted by: Antifo | Jul 9 2012 20:28 utc | 49

Antifo,

That's quite a rant/plea by Nimr al Nimr.

And then this from Reuters today:

Saudi Arabia said on Monday two men had been killed following Sunday's arrest of a prominent Shi'ite Muslim cleric that stirred some protests in the oil-producing east of the country.

An Interior Ministry spokesman said the deaths followed a protest in the village of Awamiya over the arrest on sedition accusations of Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr. According to Saudi authorities Nimr was shot in the leg after police came under fire on trying to stop his car.

Nimr, seen as a leading radical cleric promoting Shi'ite interests, was taken to hospital.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/09/us-saudi-protest-dead-idUSBRE8680V520120709

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 20:43 utc | 50

@49, riveting. I liked "We will live free men or die pious martyrs".

He seems awful sure about Allah, though. Too sure, to an agnostic like me.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 9 2012 20:48 utc | 51

How come you read the news, Walter? Maybe you should just switch everything off and let the blinds down?

somebody @ 48

Yeah, it's filled with lies. But by picking through the lies maybe we can get at the truth.

For instance, notice this Reuters report today and how it describes the Syrian position:

Syrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi said in a Twitter message: "In both meetings we reassured Annan of Syria's commitment to implement the 6-point plan and hoped (the) other side is mutually committed."

In a TV interview on Sunday, Assad said . . .

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/09/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8610SH20120709

So notice a couple of things:

1) The Syrian spokesman clearly states he only uses Twitter for "Unofficial" purposes. Think how crazy this is that the reporter is using this for a statement; the new rules of journalism are now that they don't have to attend press conferences or talk to a spokesman in person, they simply have to peruse Twitter. They are letting this third party corporation control their news and guess what? I don't trust it much more than I trust Facebook or the New York Times or the CIA. https://twitter.com/Makdissi We've already seen Twitter be used by governments against other governments. Whose side do you think Twitter is going to take? The U.S. and Britain or Syria?

2) The reporter follows the familiar pattern of minimizing the Syrian voice as much as possible. Assad gave an interview to the German press that b linked to and it was barely covered in the western press. I've seen a few western reporters pick things out of the interview here and there but it wasn't covered in depth. Here, the Reuter's article picks one little segment from Assad's public interview to include and an "unofficial" tweet and then calls it a day as far as getting the Syrian side. Then it's off to see Annan's side of the story and then the usual "opposition" suspects and Hillary Clinton provide most of the facts for the rest of the story.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 21:06 utc | 52

Why Iran Should Get the Bomb. Nuclear Balancing Would Mean Stability. By Kenneth N.Waltz
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/why-iran-should-get-a-bomb-waltz.pdf

Makes sense to me.

Posted by: Antifo | Jul 9 2012 21:46 utc | 53

Walter, you live in a parallel universum

this here is Assad's interview in the New York Times,search around the BBC had it too

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/09/assad-interview-video-and-transcript/

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9 2012 22:05 utc | 54

No, @somebody, this is not even a tenth of that interview.

Posted by: m_s | Jul 9 2012 22:59 utc | 55

Khaled Abu Saleh, the Sasha Cohen of international diplomacy, makes an appearance at the Friend of Syria Conference: http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2012/07/dead-and-alive-aid-worker-shows-friends-syria-conference-fren

b previously discussed Khaled Abu Saleh here: http://www.moonofalabama.org/2012/02/what-is-edith-bouviers-role-in-sarkozys-humanitarian-corridors-plans.html

The fact the journalists are standing around and writing down what he says is just too funny. They should know he's been acting all along . . . that he is pretending to be injured, etc., and they have no way of verifying this man's claims, yet they still present him as a serious figure!

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 23:13 utc | 56

"Walter, you live in a parallel universum"

Agreed somebody. I prefer my universe though because I find it more honest than yours. But you're entitled to your world view.

As for the New York Times blog post that you cite:

1. It's in a blog, not the main paper. The article in the paper (linked by The Lede) does not say what page it appeared in the real paper but it's a very short story and doesn't really discuss much about the interview. I would be interested to know what page it appeared on.

2. the linked paper story sucks. Here's how "The Lede" introduces it: "As my colleague Neil MacFarquhar reports, the German television network ARD broadcast an interview with President Bashar al-Assad of Syria on Sunday, in which he accused the United States of supporting “terrorists” in his country."

Well, the MacFarquhar article doesn't really spend much time at all on the interview. In fact, this is the only quoted THE ENTIRE article contain: “The United States is against me, the West is against me, many regional powers and countries and the people against me, so how could I stay in this position?” he said. “The answer is, I still have a public support.”

The rest simply paraphrases what he said and then the authors spend most of their time on other peripheral or loosely-related matters, like what Putin has to say. It's a terribly uninformative article and seems designed to minimize Assad's interview. This is as close to spiking the story as the Times can get while still maintaining minimum credibility.

Also, I would be interested in seeing a more scientific study about how widely Assad's interview was shown in the west.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 23:26 utc | 57

My comments to somebody where along the line you cited. The blog had TWO comments, indicative of those that read it. I too would be interested to know where (it at all) it appeared in the print edition. I could find no evidence that BBC covered that interview.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/?q=Todenh%C3%B6fer

Posted by: erichwwk | Jul 9 2012 23:30 utc | 58

That should be, "that's the only Assad quote in the entire article."

Also notice the grammatical errors the New York Times left in the quote as well as the [possible] misstatement that "the people" are against him:

“The United States is against me, the West is against me, many regional powers and countries and the people against me, so how could I stay in this position?” he said. “The answer is, I still have a public support.”

Also, of course, they're trying to paint him as paranoid.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 9 2012 23:33 utc | 59

Everything They’re Telling Us About Syria….is False?
By Russ Baker on Jul 8, 2012
here

Posted by: erichwwk | Jul 9 2012 23:47 utc | 60

BBC news TV covered the Assad-interview somewhat, at least in part.

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 10 2012 0:08 utc | 61

The CBS Evening News is doing all it can to portray Assad as a tyrant......

Posted by: georgeg | Jul 10 2012 0:35 utc | 62

>>> A speech by Nimr al Nimr>>>

Antifo,the ayatollah was practically begging to be shot by the regime. His speech was way over the top and he's lucky they didn't do much worse to him. He stopped short of asking for the ruling family be actually overthrown.

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 4:25 utc | 63

>>> “The answer is, I still have a public support.”>>>

He does, Walter, because the people like him, but not his regime that is tolerated more than it is supported. The Syrians know very well the doom and gloom that they'd get in lieu of the regime if it should fall.

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 5:04 utc | 64

>>> The CBS Evening News is doing all it can to portray Assad as a tyrant......>>>

Georgeg, Americans got used to having a tyrant in their daily diet. If a real one isn't around, they'd make one up.

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 5:29 utc | 65

www,63

by these standards everything Ghaddafi and Assad did was justified ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 10 2012 5:42 utc | 66

>>> Everything They’re Telling Us About Syria….is False?>>>

Not everything, erichwwk, but some of it. Like in all countries, it has skeletons in its closet but friends of Syria here don't talk about them possibly because they dodn't know about them being there. Syria's got some dark chapters in its past that's got people looking over their shoulder, but which country doesn't?

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 5:45 utc | 67

I wouldn't put Assad in the same category as Gaddafi. Gaddafi was certainly no saint and he had his fingers and his bank account in many intrigues and dirty tricks in foreign countries. But it would be unjust to deny the many good things Gaddafi did for his country and for the African continent. By having donated $300 million for a pan- African communications satellite, Gaddafi screwed the Europeans out of $500 million each year they were raking off the backs of poor Africans for telephone communications. It isn't any wonder the West wanted Gaddafi dead. The Herald of Harare had something about it last year:

"Jean-Paul Pougala
It was Gaddafi's Libya that offered all of Africa its first revolution in modern times - connecting the entire continent by telephone, television, radio broadcasting and several other technological applications such as telemedicine and distance teaching.
And thanks to the WMAX radio bridge, a low cost connection was made available across the continent, including in rural areas.

It began in 1992, when 45 African nations established RASCOM (Regional African Satellite Communication Organisation) so that Africa would have its own satellite and slash communication costs in the continent.
This was a time when phone calls to and from Africa were the most expensive in the world because of the annual US$500 million fee pocketed by Europe for the use of its satellites like Intelsat for phone conversations, including those within the same country.

An African satellite only cost a one-time payment of US$400 million and the continent no longer had to pay a US$500 million annual lease. Which banker wouldn't finance such a project?
But the problem remained - how can slaves, seeking to free themselves from their master's exploitation ask the master's help to achieve that freedom?
Not surprisingly, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the USA, Europe only made vague promises for 14 years. Gaddafi put an end to these futile pleas to the western "benefactors" with their exorbitant interest rates.

The Libyan guide put US$300 million on the table; the African Development Bank added US$50 million more and the West African Development Bank a further US$27 million - and that's how Africa got its first communications satellite on 26 December 2007.
China and Russia followed suit and shared their technology and helped launch satellites for South Africa, Nigeria, Angola, Algeria and a second African satellite was launched in July 2010. The first totally indigenously built satellite and manufactured on African soil, in Algeria, is set for 2020.

This satellite is aimed at competing with the best in the world, but at ten times less the cost, a real challenge. This is how a symbolic gesture of a mere US$300 million changed the life of an entire continent.
Gaddafi's Libya cost the West, not just depriving it of US$500 million per year but the billions of dollars in debt and interest that the initial loan would generate for years to come and in an exponential manner, thereby helping maintain a system that plundered the continent.

http://www.herald.co.zw/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19327:why-the-west-wants-gaddafi-out&catid=39:opinion&Itemid=132

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 6:05 utc | 68

He might have looked like a bizarre worn-out 1970s glam-rocker, but he wasn't all bad.

Posted by: Alexander | Jul 10 2012 6:55 utc | 69

did the treacherous pilot to jordan do so purposefully to give friend/foe enciphering system to the USrael?

RT:Are the escape of the Syrian pilot to Jordan and the Turkish aircraft incident related?
AK: When the aircraft got hijacked on July 21, I was in Beirut, at the Al Mayadin TV channel which was headed by Ghassan Bin Jiddu, the former chief of Al Jazeera’s bureau in Libya. He was the one who caused a scandal by quitting the channel due to lies that the channel had been broadcasting for the last year and a half. On that day, this channel was the first to report the jet hijacking in Jordan. The first question was, how quickly Jordan would return the plane, which it was obliged to do according to the international laws. It wasn’t as much about the aircraft itself, but rather about the friend/foe enciphering system. According to military experts, it takes about a week to decipher it. The fact that the aircraft wasn’t returned immediately gives a reason to doubt Jordan’s neutrality. There are reasons to suggest that the incident was thoroughly staged. On 23rd June, a Turkish reconnaissance aircraft flying at an extremely low altitude intruded into Syria. Some experts believe that by then, Jordan could’ve deciphered the codes, and that Turkey made an attempt to use them.

http://www.rt.com/news/syria-lies-invasion-reality-interview-671/

Posted by: brian | Jul 10 2012 7:15 utc | 70

Posted by: somebody | Jul 9, 2012 1:07:38 PM | 41

source as usual is the Guardian....and what did the opps say about the russia base in Tartous? you can be sure any 'transition' govt will transition into a Usrael stooge

Posted by: brian | Jul 10 2012 7:18 utc | 71

Brian, Bin Jiddo was not Libya bureau chief as he wasn't allowed to set off in his native Libya for the past 20 years; he was Beirut bureau chief. And he did not quit because of the lies of the previous year and a half, but because he would not go along with the network's new script on Syria. Rather than play by its new rules on reporting, he decided instead to walk away from a 20-year Jazeera job that he had started when the station was owned by the BBC.

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 7:45 utc | 72

that was supposed to be "set foot" instead of "set off" in the above post; sorry.

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 13:30 utc | 73

@lizard

Your heart is probably at the right place, sadly your head is definitely not.
That the occupy movement is dead, is obvious for everyone to see. That it didn't achieve anything worthwhile, except for a great slogan, is also obvious.

If this is a generational political awakening, then i definitely don't want to be associated in any way with the simplistic naiveté of this generation (despite being of age).

Cynicism is an absolute necessity, because it's the mark of lucid thinking, and A.Cockburn is a lucid thinker; he rightfully pointed out that the so called '1%' (i prefer the marxist 'ruling class' term) are quite happy with the way Occupy works; all these people who could otherwise be organized to do meaningful stuff, losing their time and energy (and at the end probably their political wil) doing senseless things, without any defined objective or plan, without leadership or direction. As the french sociologist Pierre Bourdieu would say, 'ils font diversion' and it helps the power elite.

So please, wake up, try to respect people who have a much longer (and much more successful) record in activism than you (as an european, Counterpunch is one of the only things that tells me the US is not as utterly brutal, corrupt, sanctimonious, and fanatical as it seems. That and South Park :), and yes, KNOW YOUR HISTORY, or you will repeat it (sorry for the cliché)

On a side note : Thank you MoA for giving me a place to be sheltered against the overwhelming flood of MSM propaganda about Syria. I know they're lying all the time, about all topics, but i appreciate to read something different, closer to the truth, in a language i can understand (i should really learn russian or chinese)

Posted by: Cheradenine | Jul 10 2012 14:41 utc | 74

>>> ... I know they're lying all the time, about all topics, but i appreciate to read something different, closer to the truth, in a language i can understand...>>>

Cheradenine, how do you know that it's closer to the truth; is it because it's running at cross-current with what you have been reading elsewhere? Someday, you're going to be disappointed that you have been duped by both versions of the story.

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 15:51 utc | 75

@63, Nimr was a brave man who was murdered for it. And all you can say is it's his own fault? He should have played it safe and enjoyed his lamb kabobs?

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 10 2012 18:28 utc | 76

"know your history" has got to be the cheapest sentiment on this page. Every wingie, retard, knuckle dragger and mouth breather says that.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 10 2012 18:32 utc | 77

thank you Charadenine for assuming you know where my head is (it's not up my ass, which is where yours appears to be), and for adding your arrogant proclamation that Occupy, less than a year later, is dead.

please tell me, what do you base your assessment on? a lack of headlines from corporate media? on the ground experience with one of the hundreds of encampments? because Alexander Cockburn says so?

when it comes to movements in the states, they are never complete, and one can even make an argument that most fail to produce the justice and equality they seek. does that mean we should just call them dead and move on? hell no.

you do a major disservice to the work still be done on the ground by people directly and indirectly influenced by Occupy. and your comments are also incredibly insulting to those who put their personal safety on the line to confront the US police state.

Occupy showed this country how the police state is evolving, using fusion centers to coordinate police attacks on peaceful protestors. they showed us how NYC cops have become foot soldiers for Wall Street. they used people power to send a chill to the banks by getting people to divest 50 million dollars from Big Banks. hell, BoA even reversed its $5 dollar debit fee due to the people pressure mobilized, in part, by Occupy.

is none of that "worthwhile?" and what the hell worthwhile are YOU doing, Cheradenine? writing comments on a blog? yeah, that's going to change things.

Posted by: lizard | Jul 10 2012 18:36 utc | 78

...furthermore, Mr. Lucid, quit dropping the names of all the famous bloggers you know and just use your own knowledge of how the world works.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 10 2012 18:39 utc | 79

"Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you've got nothing new to say." G. Dead.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 10 2012 18:42 utc | 80

I think Occupy did succeed, within its possibilities

what many are accusing it of, in practice, is not being ambitious enough; after all in the 60s, world revolution was the program

but the starting point is different; today we begin from scratch, whereas the movements in the 60s built on a dominating "democratic paradigm", where a tendency towards greater equality, more rights and more freedoms was taken for granted

today it has been a feat that required great personal courage just to force in the public consciousness the existence of the present kind of economic injustice

but there isn't a common language, a common framework of ideas, required for a new political collective perspective to grow; and this is everybody's fault;

Lizard's right to say "if my generation is failing--and I'm not saying we're not--then I think that says more about the preceding generation than it does ours."; but others are also right to say "study your history" and extract for yourself the lessons to be learned

let's just hope someone, regardless its age, eventually starts doing it!

Posted by: claudio | Jul 10 2012 20:21 utc | 81

There are times when Alexander Cockburn represents some of the more destructive cynicism that exists on the left. The Occupy Movement is not dead by a long shot. It has been joined by some of the most intelligent, imaginative, and courageous public intellectuals we have. For a brief example the names include Cornel West, Chris Hedges, Naomi Klein, Medea Benjamin, Kevin Zeese, and many new activists as well as veteran activists. Those who say OWS is dead don't understand the nature of the organization or the depth of its roots. Neither agent provocateurs nor para-militarized police will be able to keep this movement from adapting and creatively acting for political change in the US.

A friend of mine recently came back from Washington DC, where he witnessed the spirit and commitment of the movement. And the report that comes back is that the organization is full of life and brilliance and innovation.

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 10 2012 21:14 utc | 82

Ruralito #76, although he was shot in the leg, Cheikh Nimr Nimr was not killed; the 2 people killed in the riots that followed his shooting and arrest were Akbar al-Shakhouri and Mohamed al-Felfel.

I didn't question his bravery, just his lack of common sense to have become so vocal against the ruling family and its occupation of Bahrain; by doing it, he was inviting disaster. Anyone that knows something about the persecution of the Shia there would have come to the same conclusion. Maybe the brave cheikh was aspiring to martyrdom, he mentioned it a few times in his sermon. To some especially mystics, true life begins only at death, that's what he said in his sermon.

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 21:49 utc | 83

>>> He should have played it safe and enjoyed his lamb kabobs?>>>

Ruralito, again on #76, lamb kabobs are not very Saudi and to eat some, he probably would have to go to a Lebanese-operated restaurant. Saudis if not into KFC, they'd be into mansef and kabsa. They just love chicken and on a per capita basis, they are the world' largest consumers of chicken.

Posted by: www | Jul 10 2012 22:18 utc | 84

@ 82 "the 'spirit' ... of the movement", perhaps that is the crux is it not, that hope should rest on faith .. in a holy ghost like movement that fizzled and fizzles ... the criticisms still hold my friend, what objectives and strategy is OW about? To paraphrase from another era - where is the beef?

Posted by: thirsty | Jul 10 2012 22:18 utc | 85

kebobs schmebobs! That's not the point Mister Cultural-Pathways. And "aspiring to martyrdom" has all the snap crackle and pop of a stock phrase from the Piltdown Media. Doesn't make the man's sacrifice any less noble.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 10 2012 22:25 utc | 86

A. Cockburn thinks cars don't pollute, that Lee Harvey Oswald just happened to show up at the Texas Book Depository and asked for a job and that Ruby killed him because he was so darn mad for what Oswald had done. He also took out American citizenship, voluntarily, which says something obnoxious, right there. What else? That'll do for now.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 10 2012 22:32 utc | 87

When I saw Cockburn smiling with the Star-Spangled-Cat-o'-Nine-Tails in his hand I wanted to puke. Also, his brother Patrick, is a hack.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 10 2012 22:47 utc | 88

How can anyone really "know" history, unless they experienced it themselves? And even then, people's perceptions of events are all over the place.

That being said, Occupy's a joke. Considering what's coming Humanity's way, this "response" calling itself Occupy isn't significant enough to warrant the criticism of inadequate.

Posted by: pl | Jul 10 2012 23:04 utc | 89

human history is incredibly flawed; to know it, yes, good; to know it as framed in certain ways, even better. also, I like Gnosticism.

to build on what Copeland reports, our local Occupy is interested in the Carlyle Group's purchasing of our town's water infrastructure. that is one direction to take, locally.

even for the cynics who expect the system to collapse, the initial seeding of Occupy provided opportunities for people across the states to meet, face to face, and begin a process of feeling out points of agreement, and points conflict.

a friend involved in our local occupy countered Cockburn's assertion that the notion that the whole system was unfixable did not get much of a hearing.

here is his part of that comment:

As to Cockburn’s ridiculous assumption that Occupiers didn’t debate the notion that the shape of society couldn’t be fixed because it was too broke just shows how out of touch he is. That notion was central to most of the strategic debates that happened within Occupy, taking up all of the oxygen in the rooms at times, as the reformist vs. revolutionary battles were as much to blame for the disintegration of much energy. But those debates did build a lot of lateral solidarity among once disparate elements of the community. Maybe Cockburn has never really been involved in a “diversity of tactics” discussion before. But we had a great one lasting three days in Missoula. Anarchist meet progressive dem. Whatcha got in common, and can you work together? I think that the answer is maybe… a little bit on some key issues. But not when it comes to politics and electoral battles.

the person who wrote that isn't a youngster. he's part of the older guard redeploying their skills to assist in the process, which can be tedious.

anyway, if anyone wants a little boost of optimism, I suggest listening to Alternative Radio's conversation with Max Rameau.

Posted by: lizard | Jul 11 2012 3:01 utc | 90

Turkish Farmers to get a blow from Russia
Putin puts the squeeze on Edogan over Syria
_______

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/NG10Ag01.html

Posted by: Brain McKinlay | Jul 11 2012 4:40 utc | 91

>>> kebobs schmebobs! That's not the point Mister Cultural-Pathways. And "aspiring to martyrdom" has all the snap crackle and pop of a stock phrase from the Piltdown Media. Doesn't make the man's sacrifice any less noble.
Posted by: ruralito | Jul 10, 2012 6:25:53 PM | 86>>>

Ruralito, no reason to get upset if I don't agree with you. I never said what the man did was not noble,just that it wasn't smart of him (given that the government's ongoing clobbering). If you knew what the Shia are suffering, you'd have understood that it's not about anything noble. The ayatollah kept talking about Bahrain; there is an announced plan for Saudia to annex the cash-strapped Bahrain that would effectively short-circuit the aspirations of Bahrain's 80% Shia population that's been encouraging Saudia's 20% Shia population to also oppose their rulers.

Posted by: www | Jul 11 2012 6:33 utc | 92

>>> That being said, Occupy's a joke. Considering what's coming Humanity's way, this "response" calling itself Occupy isn't significant enough to warrant the criticism of inadequate. >>>

In my book, no matter the cause, "occupy" is a dirty word.

Posted by: www | Jul 11 2012 6:40 utc | 93

'Alexei Alekseyenko, a spokesman for RSN, said that for the time being no action to impose the quarantine has been taken beyond the warning to the Turks to clean up their act and get rid of the American infestation. RSN says that since June 28 the Turks haven't had time to reply to the Russian demarche.'


subtle!

Posted by: brian | Jul 11 2012 9:10 utc | 94

I for one, want nothing to do with anyone or anything who's goal it is to fix the whole system. That's like declawing a tiger or lion to make it a better pet. In otherwords, it's asinine. If you want a pet, get a rock.

Posted by: pl | Jul 11 2012 12:04 utc | 95

and I want nothing to do with someone with your limited imagination, pl.

Posted by: lizard | Jul 11 2012 13:14 utc | 96

@lizard insults won't make reality go away, as much as you try, Occupy is dead, and that's a good thing. Police state, collusion between banks and the ruling class, people pressure, nothing is new, as you would know if you had some historical perspective.

You seem to discover it, because your movement was attacked and you were probably hit in your flesh. Once again, wake up, thousands of people in many countries have experienced the same things and much more before you. Occupy was not something new, it was the naive and clumsy westerner copy (and often a very bad one) of other (often much more succesful) movements throughout history. Unionization and social fights in 19th century Europe, the spring and october revolutions in Russia, movements for civic rights, the decolonization...All these movements have been met with the most brutal force their enemies could throw at them, and the succesful ones have often be the most organized ones (not that i like it, it's just a fact)

The ruling class has learned from these movements and adapted, and that's why Occupy was useful to them, a way to keep all those young people, with a nascent political conscience, busy doing harmless things. And with a bit of luck, the brutal police beatings would definitely convince some of them that nothing else than the existing system is possible.

A.Cockburn is right, not because he's a famous journalist, but because he's just right. The ruling class has understood how to handle movements like Occupy, they massively use the propaganda power of the MSM to keep John Doe's view in line with what is useful to them. Occupy activists are shown as clueless naive, and a bit dangerous, idealists, and the majority believes it.

The system cannot be fixed, it has to be overthrown, and it can only happen with blood and tears. Paraphrasing the famous french atheist Meslier, you'll have to hang the last banker with the guts of the last cop.

Posted by: Cheradenine | Jul 11 2012 14:50 utc | 97

first, I never said this movement was "new" I said it wasn't dead. maybe you should read a bit more closely before popping off.

second, you join Cockburn with your own naivete by perpetuating the unsubstantiated claims that occupiers don't know their history and occupiers avoided the notion that the system is irrevocably broken, which is what Cockburn claims, and you claim he's right. did you notice how Cockburn didn't give any specifics about how he came to this conclusions?

third, Cheradenine, I'm curious: when are you going to start killing bankers and cops? if you think the whole system must be overthrown, then lots of people need to be killed, right? are you going to take up arms against the state?

personally, I don't advocate for the system to be "fixed" because it already is fixed--against us. I'm sure you know the system is working just fine for those at the top.

what I'm interested in is establishing regional networks for food, energy, transportation. I'm interested in the right to housing and the right to health care. in fact, I'm working toward that in my community.

again, what are you doing, Cheradenine?

Posted by: lizard | Jul 11 2012 15:22 utc | 98

Posted by: somebody | Jul 11 2012 15:46 utc | 99

One of the things A. Cockburn writes that is clearly not true about the Occupy Movement is that it is cut off from our history; and this claim that people in the movement are naive about the useful experience of America's past activists, is simply wrong. For one thing, in New York (before the last major police raid), there was a huge people's library of historical and political theory created for the protesters. This amazing cooperative effort can be compared historically to consciousness raising activity and Teach-ins, in the 1960s, for instance. And right now, many accomplished and older political theorists, activists, writers, and historians, are also lending their support and experience to this rising, and innovative social struggle.

It's such a counterfactual criticism of Occupy, to claim that its slogan about the 99% and 1% is all one needs to know about its legacy; as if to casually dismiss its fundamental power to organize itself , to confront and resist oppression. In Zucotti Park, the group's flexibility of modeling alternative social structure, along with OWS techniques for creating public assemblies while also streamlining the process of reaching consensus, reflects with its "mic check", an adaptable ingenuity

The movement's non-hierarchical structure is also a social tool of organizing that is complementary to an activist vision of creating alternative and more democratic social improvements. Also, novel methods for avoiding the vertical structure in organization also demonstrates an effective countermeasure to agent provocateurs, and makes the protest activities less vulnerable to the demoralization that occurs when the goons can identify, isolate, imprison, or even kill the movement's leadership.

I would say that present activists have absorbed the lessons and shortcomings of the past; and it follows that no real case has been made that they are ignoring history ,or not making use of wisdom that was learned from those who struggled in times past. The youth, as always, remain at the forefront of real changes in our history; and they are just as responsible for the changes in consciousness as for the tangible alterations to be made in social, political, and economic structure.

Perhaps India's wisdom which proved useful against British oppression could illuminate what is possible in our country. A friend reminded me of something that was said during that successful struggle (whether by Gandhi or Tagore I can't remember); but I'll paraphrase.

When the people truly rise above those in the ruling class and show that they can do without the structure that that class created, the elite themselves are made to appear very small.

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 11 2012 19:34 utc | 100

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