Misunderstanding Russia On Syria

June 6, 2012

The unofficial U.S. government spokesperson David Ignatius writes about some new plan Kofi Annan is supposed to have developed:

To break the deadlock, Annan would create his contact group, composed of the permanent members of the U.N. Security Council (Britain, China, France, Russia and the United States), plus Saudi Arabia and perhaps Qatar to represent the Arab League, and Turkey and Iran. The idea is to bring together the countries with most influence on the situation.

This unwieldy group would then draft a transition plan and take it to Assad and the Syrian opposition. This road map would call for a presidential election to choose Assad’s successor, plus a parliamentary ballot and a new constitution — with a timeline for achieving these milestones.

There is no way the Syrian government and the Russians would agree to this plan.

Why should they? It would give the U.S. and the Gulf tyrannies all they want. It also would not work.

How does this plan stop the terrorists that roam in Syria? How would it stop the money flowing to them? How would it address “the opposition” when there is no united opposition?

That plan was likely whispered into Ignatius ears by some U.S. diplomat rather than Annan.

The major mistake “western” writers make in their rather stupid comments is their misunderstanding of the Russian and Chinese position.This is not about a Russian harbor in the Mediterranean and not about cultural ties though there are intensive ones.

To those countries the fight over Syria is a principle one. In their eyes the U.S. is trying to establish a dogma that inner strife in any country, even when fueled by outer interference, justifies the removal of a regime by force or other means.

The U.S. is instigating protests by some rather lunatic “democratic forces” in Russia. It is pushing Tibetan exiles to stoke unrest in the Tibetan parts of China. It interferes in other local Chinese affairs.

It is obvious to the Russian and Chinese governments that, should the new dogma get established, they will be next in line for the situation Syria is now in. They will do about everything to not let that happen.

They are also on the right side of history. One of the biggest cultural achievement of the “west”, paid for with lots of blood, was the establishment of the principals of the Westphalian peace which forbid outside interference in interior sovereign state affairs. This principal also underlies the charter of the United Nations:

Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter.

The “west” has no, as in zero, rights to interfere in other countries.

That is the point Russia and China are making. And for that to stick they must, and absent of much greater threats will, hold on to their positions.

Posted by b on June 6, 2012 at 17:09 UTC | Permalink

Comments

This proposal is a joke. The zionist frontmen so believe their own inflated egos (that they are geniuses and others are unseeing dolts) that they think Russia (raped & pillaged by zionists for 2 centuries under jewish assassins throughout 19th cent and jewish bolsheviks in the 20th) and china- the oldest civilization on earth- cant see through such sophomoric dribble.
they will handle china via bioweapons probably. russia? how many times do the british israelites get to squelch this land before the Russians stand up?
russia-china understand that this is NOT about syria but about the RIGHT TO NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY. the One World Gov is fighting for international domination and all opposition must be knocked out. china-russia-iran will be slaves to the west if they dont draw the line now. turkey will be dismembered after their usefulness overthrowing Syria is finished, and its water siphoned off to the zionists. its land will go to Greater Israel under Kurdistan.

Posted by: mastadon | Jun 6 2012 17:28 utc | 1

Ron Paul continues to be one of the few in the US who has the courage to speak the truth:
http://runronpaul.com/obama/ron-paul-war-drums-for-syria/
“The story about the Syrian massacre keeps changing, which should raise suspicions. First, we were told that the killings were caused by government shelling, but then it was discovered that most were killed at close range with handgun fire and knives. No one has explained why government forces would take the time to go house to house binding the hands of the victims before shooting them, and then retreat to allow the rebels in to record the gruesome details. No one wants to ask or answer the disturbing questions, but it would be wise to ask ourselves who benefits from these stories.”

Posted by: Ammar | Jun 6 2012 17:33 utc | 2

It’s a joke , its the same plan that the arab league drafted for the UN security council in december and it was vetoed by russia&china
You think , after all the blood the syrian people give , they are going to give the their ennemy what they want : ie : a regime change , like nothing happen ? LoL

Posted by: Aa | Jun 6 2012 17:35 utc | 3

Straight up b, point well made.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 6 2012 17:39 utc | 4

I haven’t been keeping up. Has Hillary said anything about Pussyriot yet?

Posted by: dh | Jun 6 2012 18:10 utc | 5

according to Szaman it is Russia’s plan
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-282752-.html
“As the armed clashes go on in Syria, with the United Nation’s Syria peace plan set out by Kofi Annan remaining ineffective to put an end to the clashes, Lavrov, who is in Beijing with Russian President Vladimir Putin to attend a two-day summit of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, announced that they felt it necessary “to assemble a meeting of states with real influence on different opposition groups [in Syria].” Elaborating on the proposal, “It is all permanent members of the UN Security Council, the leading countries in the region, it is Turkey; one should not forget Iran, the Arab League, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation. The EU could contribute, I think,” he said, noting that the goal would be to fulfill Annan’s plan.”
Russia and Iran are rational players, they do not care who rules Syria as long as it is their sphere of interest.
It is not necessarily Assad, who did not plan for the job he has and would be probably just as happy running a hospital, who opposes a solution, actually his generation may be keen on something more modern as a state, however part of the regime mafia will resist. It is only Russia that could frighten them enough to cave in.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 6 2012 18:21 utc | 6

Vladimir Putin is in Beijing today 6 Jun 2012. And today Russia and China issued a jointly signed statement about Syria which includes the sentence: “Russia and China oppose resolutely the attempts for a foreign forcible settlement of the Syrian crisis and imposing, particularly in the UN Security Council, the policy for the change of political rules.” The joint statement also calls for “a peaceful and fair settlement of the Syrian crisis without any interference from the outside.” http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c154/440223.html
In any settlement (peaceful or not) without any interference from the outside, the estabished government will continue to rule because it has the support of the majority of the people of Syria. والله محيي سوريا الاسد

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 6 2012 18:24 utc | 7

Doom and gloom coming to the Middle East, from al-Akhbar today:
>>> The Americans may feel they are losing ground in our region, but there is one area where they are not.
Their plans were derailed by the failure of the invasion of Iraq, the weakening of Israel’s strategic position, and the fall of Hosni Mubarak’s regime. But none of that prompted them to alter their policies, and now they are scoring successes.
These relate to the fragmentation of Arab countries: From Somalia, reduced to a leftover of the worldwide war; to Sudan, dismembered and preoccupied with feeding its people; and also Iraq, mired in the agony of protracted war; disintegrating Libya; Tunisia, sunk in its own brand of Islamic rule, and the other disoriented Maghreb countries; Egypt, as it slowly swaps sides; Syria, engrossed in a major national crisis and facing a fierce colonial onslaught; Yemen, where terrifying splits loom; Jordan, primed to explode from poverty and identity issues; and Lebanon, which is poised for a fresh civil war.>>>
Gulf States and Turkey Going All-Out Against Syria
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/gulf-states-and-turkey-going-all-out-against-syria

Posted by: www | Jun 6 2012 19:01 utc | 8

somebody, I read your citation of Szaman as a call to neighboring countries to assume responsibility towards Annan’s plan; it’s quite different from drafting a new “transition plan”, as in b’s citation
but somehow I agree, Russia’s and China’s behavior doesn’t seem crystalline to me; this issue of a regional conference arose some time ago, and I posted about its intrinsic ambiguity (commenting also that time a link offered by somebody!)
the problem I think is that
1) Russia harbors sub-imperialist ambitions, their wet dream is that of reaching a global agreement with the Us, where the Us gets to rule over 4/5 of the planet, and Russia over the remaining 1/5 (including Iran), with “special relation” with Europe and containment of China
2) China doesn’t really play the power game, maybe not even in its direct area of influence; it keeps pouring money everywhere it thinks it can make business and where it wishes to exercise some influence, but always shies off any sort of direct confrontation; so it’s everybody’s friend but nobody’s ally, and never pulls off its real weight when the issues get hot; maybe in the long run it will be shown to be a wise strategy, but I’m not sure

Posted by: claudio | Jun 6 2012 19:18 utc | 9

“Men are born soft and supple; dead they are stiff and hard. Plants are born tender and pliant; dead, they are brittle and dry. Thus whoever is stiff and inflexible is a disciple of death. Whoever is soft and yielding is a disciple of life. The hard and stiff will be broken. The soft and supple will prevail.”
― Lao Tzu

Posted by: somebody | Jun 6 2012 19:35 utc | 10

‘www’ at #8 quotes from a commentator at Al-Akhbar.com. That commentator has been misinformed and nutty about Syria for all of the last year and still is. It reminds me of what Bashar Assad said on 3 Jun 2012:

“The time since the beginning of the crisis is long enough now for any person to learn what it is. Those who have not learned the facts and have not understood the reality of the crisis, in my opinion, cannot learn. Not even if the crisis lasted for years to come.” http://www.sana.sy/eng/21/2012/06/04/423234.htm

I will reiterate that the understanding of all of us who are on the pro-Assad side is that the Assad government stands strong because it has the support of most of the Syrian people and consequently of the Syrian army; and consequently it cannot be overthrown except by a foreign conquest.
Here’s a view from a pro-rebel commentator who seems to have the same understanding, i.e. that the Syrian rebels are so weak politically and militarily that only the hope of a foreign intervention gives them the hope to overthrow the established government.

“It all boils down to whether the international community has the will and the ability to put an end to this bloodshed. Unfortunately, there is not much hope in this respect. First of all, a Security Council decision is necessary for a military intervention and Russia and China would veto such a decision. A NATO intervention is also unlikely. The West has been worn out by Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Libyan intervention. The US is busy with the elections and the Europeans are worried about their economy. Lastly, the Syrian army is not comparable to the Libyan one — its strength should not be underestimated. The option to establish a buffer zone through a limited military intervention is still on the table. However, there is a risk that any intervention force would clash with the Syrian army and Air Force and cannot be a limited intervention in practice.” http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/security/01/06/syrian-options-and-probabilities.html

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 6 2012 19:41 utc | 11

(from articles in Le Temps, who had a reporter-stringer in N Syria, came home a few days ago, paywall, my interpretative summary)
*Parts* of N Syria (extent, geographic exactitude not possible, he went around the Djebel, etc.) are ‘held’ by the rebels – FSA – in the sense that all Gvmt. personnel / national orgs. have left, and authority has devolved, to the FSA as a loose organization, thus to the younger M generation.
Sons command their fathers, daughters have no say. Nobody else has any authority any more, the old social order is defunct. Children want to join the rebels – the schools are shut … (Oh and btw the U of Aleppo has been closed for months now.)
Local figures like doctors have been killed or left. There is no med care beyond the most rough emergency measures. Fuel is scarce, whole hills are already barren (cooking. fuel is for motor bikes.) Food is not a problem yet, but electricity is already extremely patchy. Water will surely become a problem. For the most part, the infrastructure is still holding up – *imho* this cannot last, as State org. has broken down, and water workers, for ex. have joined the FSA.
According to B. Mabillard (the reporter), Assad’s army controls the main roads, checkpoints and the usual, and makes forays, punitive, or intended to frighten. They enter villages at night, the inhabitants see/hear/are informed by look-outs, and flee, hide, and then come back to find some looted houses, burnt cars, and the like. The army picks up ‘random’ ppl who are never heard from again, that kind of thing. It sounds like a gingerly stand off, which is in favor of the ‘rebels’ in the present, as that gives them reasons and time to organize (imho.)
The price of arms is out of sight. 2K dollaris for an old Kalash, more for something better, and even old hunting rifles are worth 300 US d… The FSA obtains most of its arms from members of the Syrian army, at those prices it is understandable. The FSA train practically without shooting because they cannot pay for cartridges.
The border with Turkey is 100% permeable, the Turks let everyone / everything thru both ways. On one condition, that they are informed of what is going on.
for what is its worth, here are some articles in F by Mabillard on other topics, from another paper:
http://www.lecourrier.ch/boris_mabillard
I don’t think China or Russia can do anything about these areas that are out of control and are moreover set to increase.
For light relief, Beeshou’s nightmares (satire featuring Assad), episode 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5RifYxWr-4

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 6 2012 19:55 utc | 12

Parviziyi, I dread the prospect of seeing Assad lose because that would result in another Libya. The commentator is the paper’s chief editor and very pro-Hezbollah, which by extension makes him pro-Assad to the bone. It’s not a capital sin to criticize something or other about President Assad or his regime.
It’s looking like the American game plan is to try to go for a Chapter 7, which will be automatically blocked by Russia and China. That’s when NATO will step in for “humanitarian” reasons.
This morning, some scumbag going by the name of Ibrahim Tamimi (probably a bogus name)living somewhere outside of Syria phoned-in to a live TV news show in Israel and told the Israeli guys that he is a Sunni imam that represent the Sunni of Syria, that the Sunni in Syria don’t hate Israel, that they want to make peace with it and that they wanted their help and that of NATO to get rid of Assad’s regime. The Israeli guy sounded somewhat embarassed about the call, asked a couple of questions and brought the call to an end.

Posted by: www | Jun 6 2012 20:13 utc | 13

If Russia, China or Iran have the sens that political change will be the last station and will stabilize Syria without altering its strategic balance they will urge the Syrian army to move with a faster pace toward that goal. The other side though, NATO and its surrogates (Israel, Saudi, Qatar…), will only agree to this if they see a chance of tipping the balance to their side down the road with the ultimate goal of overthrowing the army.
A dialogue at the top is helpful for the Syrian camp in a sens that it will display a weakening of the fighting spirit by the other side and therefore the blurring of their stated goals. This will have a direct negative impact on the resolve of the armed insurgent in the ground. I doubt that the West will engage in any kind of constructive dialogue with Syria and its allies, since she is hell bent on weakening and ultimately destroying the Syrian army.
I do agree with the overall b analysis though, that Syria is not about to change camp any time soon. The main tactical error, which will likely cost the anglo-american the realisation of their goal, is to have openly stated regime change as their objective too early in the fight. The strategic issue for the West is not to loose credibility, or at least not too soon. In a context of a dire financial and economic situation with the main difficulties still lying ahead, the evermore visible over-extension of their military and the probable early and unexpected failure of the P5+1 talks with Iran in Moscow, they would be wise to look for a face-saving alternative.

Posted by: ATH | Jun 6 2012 20:28 utc | 14

Top of the hour 4PM NPR news summary said Syria will allow UN organizations and NGO’s in to 4 Syrian areas where there is great need for medical and other aid.
The Hindu reports about that:

Syria has allowed international relief agencies to deliver badly needed aid to around a million people in four major cities, embroiled in the uprising against regime of President Bashar Al Assad, which has come under sharper focus after the brutal killings of scores last month in the Houla area.
John Ging, director of operation for the United Nations Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, said the decision represented “very significant progress”. But with violence and broken pledges littered along the way, Mr. Ging was sceptical about the longevity of the move. “Freedom of movement, unimpeded access for humanitarian action within Syria is what it’s all about now. The good faith of the Syrian government will be tested today, tomorrow and every day.”
Under the terms of the new understanding, relief agencies will be allowed to establish field offices in the trouble-torn cities of Homs, Idlib, Daraa and Deir al-Zour. The government will arrange visas for the personnel and organise clearance of aid supplies at custom terminals. The move is in line with the six-point plan, which has focused on providing humanitarian access to civilian population. It was authored by Kofi Annan, U.N.-Arab League envoy on Syria. (My emphasis)

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 6 2012 20:39 utc | 15

Assad clan’s main goal is to prevent an anti-alawi faction from coming to power.

Posted by: nikon | Jun 6 2012 20:46 utc | 16

Rebels attacked the US Embassy in Libya today. Small start, but a shot across the bow. Some of the ‘rebels’ from anti-Imperialist side need to be deployed to EU as “Friends of Europe” and give them a bit of their own NATO treatment via a few friendly humanitarian operations. I nominate Cannes and Rome…

Posted by: mastadon | Jun 6 2012 20:57 utc | 17

Russia and China said in a joint statement released today: “Russia and China are decisively against attempts to regulate the Syrian crisis with outside military intervention, as well as imposing a policy of regime change, including within the Security Council.” After the statement was published, Sergei Lavrov made some comments to news reporters in Beijing, reiterating what he’s been saying — AFP @ http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/42630-russia-china-stress-rejection-of-military-action-against-syria-iran

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 6 2012 21:05 utc | 18

Here’s some info about laws recently enacted in Libya which I take from http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/05/25/libya-africa-and-africom/
(1) Anyone with connections to Libya’s former leader Gaddafi is banned from running in elections. Opposition members who made peace with Gaddafi [during the rebellion] are also banned from running in elections.
(2) A law, called Law 37, prohibits “glorification” of the government and rule of Muammar Gaddafi. The law makes it a criminal offense to disseminate “propaganda” that “harms military efforts to defend the country, terrorizes people, or weakens the morale of citizens.” Included in this criminal “propaganda” is glorification of Gaddafi, his regime, and his sons. The law also prohibits criticism of the country’s 2011 revolution: anyone who does anything to “damage the February 17 Revolution” can be charged with a crime under the law and sent to prison. February 17 refers to the start of the uprising that overthrew Gaddafi. (Law 37 was enacted on 2 May 2012 and is currently the subject to a legal appeal on grounds of unconstitutionality).
(3) A law, law 38, guarantees immunity from prosecution for anyone who committed crimes aimed at “promoting or protecting the revolution”. This law confers complete amnesty for any “acts made necessary by the 17 February revolution” for its “success or protection”, whether such acts are of a military, security or civil nature.
http://www.arabstoday.net/en/2012010375457/libya-to-ban-gaddafis-supporters-from-running-in-elections.html
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/05/05/libya-revoke-draconian-new-law
http://www.libyanjustice.org/news/news/post/23-lfjl-strongly-condemns-new-laws-breaching-human-rights-and-undermining-the-rule-of-law
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/05/25/libya-africa-and-africom/
The commentator at Counterpunch.org says Libya is in a state of broad institutional and societal collapse, where voicing preference for the days when Libya was prosperous and at peace is a crime, while straight-up crimes such as lynching are legal if done in the name of the revolution.
If the rebels in Syria came to power in the same way they came to power in Libya, they’d pass the same sort of laws. It would be an horrific catastrophe for everyone and everything that is good in Syria.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 6 2012 21:31 utc | 19

‘however part of the regime mafia will resist. It is only Russia that could frighten them enough to cave in.
Posted by: somebody | Jun 6, 2012 2:21:24 PM | 6’
‘regime mafia’? somebody needs to stop channeling the neocons

Posted by: brian | Jun 6 2012 21:42 utc | 20

‘Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 6, 2012 5:31:11 PM | 19’
this is a consequence of the murder of Gadaffi…and the same collapse will happen in Syria is Assad is ousted or murdered….which is what the USrael saudis want

Posted by: brian | Jun 6 2012 21:43 utc | 21

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 6, 2012 3:41:09 PM | 11
if the ‘pro-rebels’ want to put an end to the bloodshed they should stop shedding it.
and who are these ‘rebels’? really insurgents….are they syrian at all?

Posted by: brian | Jun 6 2012 21:46 utc | 22

Assads are their own worst enemy. THIS is the kind of personnel they have representing them at the UN? Small wonder they are losing the battle of public opinion- and diplomacy. Syrian troops dying at home by te thousands and this sleezy clown’s daughter is trying to leverage her connections into a NY status career. Both Jafaari and his daughter should be pulled back into Syria and replaced with loyal, competent Syrians. Traitors to Syria.
http://refreshingnews99.blogspot.in/2012/06/barbara-walters-apologises-over-links.html

Posted by: mastadon | Jun 6 2012 21:49 utc | 23

brian, I don’t think Israel is pulling the strings, nor that it perceives to be in its interest a Libyan scenario in Syria; of course, anything that happens it will try to deal with, and above all pretend it’s what it really wanted to happen in the first place

Posted by: claudio | Jun 6 2012 22:20 utc | 24

SyriaNewsENG @SyriaNewsENG2 3h
#Syria #RealSyria Breaking…. Another massacre just took place in Quber village in Hama countryside by the… fb.me/10KJ2btXu
Retweeted by thesyriangirl
==============
another massacre prior to another Annan meet….one may be an accident…twice is deliberate…this is clearly orchestrated by outside forces to accelerate NATO bombing.

Posted by: brian | Jun 6 2012 22:31 utc | 25

Posted by: mastadon | Jun 6, 2012 5:49:12 PM | 23
thinking like a mastadon…No Assads are not their own worst enemy …the western media circus is. You need to stop reading the blogs and press because they are leading you to believe what they want you to believe…or as Jefferson reminds us:
‘ The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.’
and:
The media’s the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that’s power. Because they control the minds of the masses.”
― Malcolm X
So stop thinking like a mastadon and you wont become extinct

Posted by: brian | Jun 6 2012 22:40 utc | 26

Posted by: mastadon | Jun 6, 2012 4:57:51 PM | 17
a better idea!

Posted by: brian | Jun 6 2012 22:41 utc | 27

a useful reminder:
THE syrian girl @thesyriangirl 4h
libya “@ChenguGold: Anyone who suggests NATO intervention would end Syrian bloodshed should take a trip to Baghdad, Waziristan or Kandahar”

Posted by: brian | Jun 6 2012 22:43 utc | 28

from Ignatius, cited by b:

with a timeline for achieving these milestones

why when I hear “timeline” I always understand “bombing”?

Posted by: claudio | Jun 6 2012 22:45 utc | 29

BBC article on new “massacre.” Link in open thread below.

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 6 2012 23:34 utc | 30

Posted by: brian | Jun 6, 2012 6:40:19 PM | 26
Wrong on your facts brian. Take it from first hand experience w/ Jafaari. Jafaari is incompetent (hopefully not worse) and needs to go. His primary reliance on a 21 yr old for expertise is stereotypical dictatorship regime nepotism at its worst, but only part of the mishap of his time at UN. Even if they switched Mustapha into his spot or something. Syria’s mistakes in PR Dept have enabled things to deteriorate to this level. Too bad. Would love to see Syrians trounce the western connivers with a full throttle thump to the behind. Syrians have had years to prepare media defense etc for what has come and yet refused to do anything. This is reality. Like it or not, the media is the battlefield. Unfortunately.

Posted by: JL | Jun 6 2012 23:50 utc | 31

@8, was Iraq a failure? The Iraqis are at each other’s throats and buying guns with oil money. Sounds like a win-win to me!
And it’s wishful thinking to assume Israel has been weakened. I shouldn’t believe it until the beast is on the ground in front of you with its guts out.

Posted by: ruralito | Jun 7 2012 3:20 utc | 32

JL 31…
ibe no idea what youre on about:
‘Syria’s mistakes in PR Dept have enabled things to deteriorate to this level. Too bad’
PR? Syrias govt has been dealing with the truth not PR…PR is left to the FSA and its hirelings

Posted by: brian | Jun 7 2012 4:00 utc | 33

mastadon #23, you’re making a big fuss about the ambassador. The daughter asked for a job, which Walters could not give her and then Walters offered to help her with Piers Morgan and Columbia. Nobody said the ambassador or his daughter twisted anyone’s arm. In fact, Walters offered to help.
But you and JL are correct in saying that the Syrian PR is the pits. If it weren’t, world public opinion would have not have believed that the regime was responsible for the big massacre.

Posted by: www | Jun 7 2012 4:24 utc | 34

But you and JL are correct in saying that the Syrian PR is the pits. If it weren’t, world public opinion would have not have believed that the regime was responsible for the big massacre.
Posted by: www | Jun 7, 2012 12:24:28 AM | 34
world opinion is controlled by the ‘free'(market) press and (in)human rights organisations like amnesty..Syria finds it hard to best these masters of spin who demonise a country 24/7..What can the syrian govt do? It tells the truth and and these are called state lies by the pundits of the ‘free’ press.

Posted by: brian | Jun 7 2012 4:40 utc | 35

>>> @8, was Iraq a failure? The Iraqis are at each other’s throats and buying guns with oil money. Sounds like a win-win to me!>>>
You’re obviously looking at things from a Western perspective, which of course would make you right. But this was written from an Arab one, which to them makes it an accurate one. It depemds from which end of the telescope you are looking at things.
The weakening of Israel is not about its military but about its strategic position since its joined to America’s. The loss of Mubarak that has been riding shotgun for Israel is a big strategic loss. Peace with Egypt had meant a savings of about 40% of its military budget and effort and now all you hear coming out of Egypt’s fundamentalists that are starting to call the shots is their wish to rewrite the Camp David. America’s failure in Iraq means the loss of Israel’s hegemony over the Middle East. In time, Iraq will bounce back and before you know it, it will be a threat to Israel once more. The squadron of F16s that the US is allowing Iraq to buy isn’t such a big deal. Soner or later, the Saudis, Qataris and Emiratis will stop being preoccupied with the economic health of their dollars invested in the West and get back to remembering that the realy bad guys are not other Arabs but the Israelis.

Posted by: www | Jun 7 2012 4:46 utc | 36

Above post should have been addressed to ruralito; sorry.

Posted by: www | Jun 7 2012 4:48 utc | 37

Brian, PR is not only about telling lies but about influencing people’s perceptions. Telling the truth is not enough; it has to be done by qualified professionals. All the wars that the West has been waging on others were first begun by a massive PR campaign. Bush 1 took almost a year to launch the first invasion of Iraq because half of the US public opinion had been initially against the invasion and he waited until a Washington PR agency came through with the incubators gimmick that had mostly everyone in the US screaming for Bush to attack Iraq. It was done time and again with asaults on Yugoslavia, on Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen and now Syria is being set up for it with the massacres stories. Syria should have hired a good NY or Washington PR agency to polish its regime’s image, but now it’s too late for that.

Posted by: www | Jun 7 2012 5:11 utc | 38

@38, if it was done “time and time again” somebody in Syria would have floated hiring “a good NY or Washington PR agency” by now. Or Castro, or Chavez. But I don’t think it’s that easy. What big US firm would take them on as a client with the same gusto they reserve for Blair or Merkel or…? IIRC Ghaddafi went all out selling himself to Sarkozy, for all the good it did him.

Posted by: ruralito | Jun 7 2012 5:30 utc | 39

ruralito, Syria to this day with about 15,000 dead, appears to still think that it doesn’t have a really big problem on its hands. Living conditions under the regime have been generally good but being under state of emergency law and having to look over their shoulders for over 40 years has taken its toll among the peons rebelling today. Denying this is at the root of problem.

Posted by: www | Jun 7 2012 6:19 utc | 40

Posted by: www | Jun 7, 2012 12:24:28 AM | 34
Jafaari’s daughter was the #1 PR aid to the PRESIDENT of the country and her blase’ venality of just being worried about her own career is pretty gross. West couldnt sell me the negatives on Asma for her shopping ‘during war’ – who cares? But this is the SYRIAN AMBASSADOR to the UN. The unprofessionalism is sad. Still say they should both be replaced but now is too late. Mom & Pop org if ever there was one. Will have a direct bearing on the destruction of the country. Hate to say it, but they have none of the media competence of Israel.
They seem to have very little understanding of the west, and are clueless as to how dire all this will soon be, or how close they are to final annihilation ala Libya, Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan… Hate to see it.

Posted by: JL | Jun 7 2012 6:33 utc | 41

JL, eventhough I agree that its PR is very poor, I have serious doubts that you really hate to see what’s happening to Syria. The Syrian ambassador had nothing to do with his daughter trying for a better job; it’s her right. Given what he’s up against and the full force of American coercion working against him, the Syrian ambassador is doing a reltively good job at the UN and I think this is what’s pissing you off and making you wish to see him removed. Unless of course you are a she and jealous of Sheherazade’s good looks.

Posted by: www | Jun 7 2012 7:03 utc | 42

Considering what he is up against, the Syrian ambassador is doing a very good job, and the main fact about his daughter is that she is a professional.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 7 2012 7:18 utc | 43

citizen journalist Gari Sullivan reports on syria Houla massacre and the BBC photo
http://www.thewire.org.au/storyDetail.aspx?ID=9195#5

Posted by: brian | Jun 7 2012 8:01 utc | 44

I’m enjoying all the defeatist doom, gloom & angst from the trolls on this thread.
The simple fact is that Yankees, like their “Israeli” friends, are cowards – hence all the bullying and lying dressed up in self-righteous Motherhood Statements from shit-for-brains lunatics & liars like Susan Rice, Shrillary and Victoria Nuland.
There was never any doubt in my mind that Syria would trash US-NATO’s ‘rebels’ – and when China and Russia stepped up to the plate it was GAME OVER for the putrid Americans and their regime-change daydream for Syria.
Here are a few clear-eyed perspectives from sources which don’t walk around with their heads up their asses like Yankees and “Israelis”.
Houla affair highlights Western intelligence gap in Syria
http://www.voltairenet.org/The-Houla-affair-highlights
Putin intends to create free trade zone with Russia
http://www.voltairenet.org/Syria-Vladimir-Putin-intends-to
Putin contemplates sending CSTO peacekeeping force
http://www.voltairenet.org/Syria-Vladimir-Putin-contemplates
And last, but not least…
NATO glorifies its decline
http://www.voltairenet.org/NATO-glorifies-its-decline

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 7 2012 8:33 utc | 45

@9
It seems that the corrupt hierarchies in Russia and China would agree to divide the global plunder, but the American establishment is too arrogant and chauvinistic to close the deal. (And there’s also capitalism’s historic difficulty in sharing resources and markets.)

Posted by: Watson | Jun 7 2012 13:31 utc | 46

Oh yeah,the puppet master(Israel) aint pulling strings.Ho Ho.Nothing that is going on in the ME is done without the puppet masters approval, absolutely nothing.
I see the US wants Col.Ks son to be tried by his captors instead of the ICC.Send US postcards of the hanging.
BTW;Where is the condemnation for Bob Zimmerman(Georges father?)for receiving a medal from the masters of war?(actually the masters of disaster,as they stink at war )Is silent Bob an untouchable,like the rest of the Brahmins?

Posted by: dahoit | Jun 7 2012 14:29 utc | 47

Syrian PR?In a nation and world of Zionist PR?Does not compute;zzzzt.Please encapsulate your message in one word or less.zzzt.

Posted by: dahoit | Jun 7 2012 14:36 utc | 48

The media is the battlefield;Yes, the power of the pen is mightier than the sword,but our scribes are all dyslexic 80lb weaklings of intellect who think they are Charles Atlas,so I think its more of the borg monopoly the Zionists control that limits American thinking into this cul de sac of ridiculousness,as there is no competing narrative other than the monsters’ spiel,as per plan.

Posted by: dahoit | Jun 7 2012 14:44 utc | 49

Unbelievable rhetoric from Ban-Ki-Moon blaming The Syrian for all the atrocities committed. This man is a nutter who has compromised the UN and it will never function as a world body. Steps must be taken such that the SG remain apolitical.
Same with the SG of the AL who began by praising Qatar for it “wise leadership” and then again solely accusing The Syrian government. Wow!

Posted by: hans | Jun 7 2012 14:45 utc | 50

RealSyria – Eyewitness and Journalist: Western Media lie about #Syria
http://www.syrianews.cc/eyewitness-and-journalist-western-media-lie-about-syria-769.html

Posted by: brian | Jun 7 2012 14:48 utc | 51

Unconventional Warfare (UW) Manual of the US Military’s Special Forces (2010) opening:

The intent of U.S. [Unconventional Warfare] UW efforts is to exploit a hostile power’s political, military, economic, and psychological vulnerabilities by developing and sustaining resistance forces to accomplish U.S. strategic objectives…For the foreseeable future, U.S. forces will predominantly engage in irregular warfare (IW) operations.

Sharmine Narwani talks about how this is being used Syria and how it gets created (alot of good graphs as well).
Source: http://english.al-akhbar.com/blogs/sandbox/going-rogue-americas-unconventional-warfare-mideast

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jun 7 2012 15:27 utc | 52

same collapse will happen in Syria if Assad is ousted or murdered….which is what the USrael saudis want – Parviziyi
This is what will happen, I agree, though Assad obtaining ‘safe exile’ is not excluded.
However I would hold back somewhat on the want part. Israel has been quite muted, compared to its usual. Seen from one angle.
The US surely understands the dangers. (Well. A hem.) Saudi, OK. Who gains what when Syria becomes the new Lybia, or for that matter, Iraq? This is a difficult question, surely hotly debated in cooled rooms with flowers and drinks.
Syria now has a self-proclaimed expat Chief of the Gvmt. in exile, Nofal Al Dawalibi. He is ‘part Saudi’ and crashes at the Hotel Lutetia when he is in Paris, no couch surfing or popular meets for him. Two days ago, he was in Geneva, after Madrid and Washington. He studied at Stanford.
He is the son of Marouff al-D, Minister of Finance, PM of Syria. Early 60s, imprisoned, then exiled, after the Baath coup, became counselor to King Faycal.
That is why the Saudi part, and Nofal has a Saudi passport, and a considerable fortune.
Nofal seems present in the Israel Times, Yahoo, Fox news, from goog’s first page, I never heard of him before. Digging a little deeper – though never sure one has the right man in these cases – he seems to be minor wheel in extractive and security Cos, what a surprise.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 7 2012 15:45 utc | 53

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 7 2012 15:45 utc | 54

>>> Israel has been quite muted>>>
Not really, Noirette, Israel is never muted but it works in underhanded ways and through its non-Israeli agents. Last July 4th in Paris, its agent in France, BHL, convened a meeting of French and Israeli Zionists with Syrian expats and Muslim Brothers to discuss repeating his Libya adventure on Syria and by the presence of the Israeli attendees Alex Goldfarb and Frédéric Encel and that of French Zionists Bernard Kouchner, André Glucksman, Axel Poniatowski you could see that Israel wasn’t at all muted.
Representing the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood at this Paris meeting of vultures was Mulham al-Droubi who took the opportunity to announce that the Brotherhood was in favor of “normalization” with Israel without an end to the Israeli occupation and that it backed the monarchy in Bahrain and the rest of the Gulf Arab states. That’s Israel’s hand behind this meeting. SOS Racisme President Dominique Sopo spoke at the conference, and Martine Aubry, Bertrand Delanoë, François Hollande sent messages of support to it.
As to the Saudi’s candidate Nofal Al Dawalibi to replace President Assad, he will have to get in line behind the 5 or 6 others aspiring to lead Syria. There’s the on-off leader of the SNC, Burhan Ghalyoun that’s currently the pet of the US and France. Also running are Ashraf al-Moqdad, and former Syrian VP Abdul Halim Khaddam as well as Radwan Badini and Muhammad Karkouti that all attended Levy’s Paris orgy.

Posted by: www | Jun 7 2012 17:57 utc | 55

@ Noirette #53, #54: It was Brian who said that. Not me. And I don’t agree with Brian’s statement.
One thing Brian and me agree on is that the mainstream news outlets in the West can pump out falsehood after falsehood about Syria and never be held to account for it as long as the Western governments are publicly denouncing the Syrian government as an enemy of Human Rights.
The contention that the Syrian government is an enemy of Human Rights is the biggest falsehood.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 7 2012 19:16 utc | 56

>>> The contention that the Syrian government is an enemy of Human Rights is the biggest falsehood.>>>
I’m with you and Brian all the way about how the Western press is spreading the big lie, Parviziyi, but with the above comment, you are leading with your chin.

Posted by: www | Jun 7 2012 19:51 utc | 57

@ Parviziyi, sorry for the misquote.
@ www, Israel “muted” is really a question of angle of perception, nothing new or interesting will emerge from argument.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 8 2012 16:46 utc | 58

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