Lavrov On Syria Conference – The Non-Paper

June 10, 2012

Following Lavrov's press conference yesterday the Russian federation issued a non-paper to formalize its proposal for an international conference on Syria:

1- Purpose of conference: to negotiate practical steps aimed at finding a durable political solution t0 the Syrian crisis. Encourage key external players who may exert real influence on various Syrian parties, to take coherent measures in support of Kofi Annan's Peace Plan and to ensure full implementation of UN Security Council Resolutions 2042 and 2043, in which the Security Council endorsed the Plan and authorized the deployment of the UN Supervision Mission in Syria.
2- Suggested participants of the conference: China, France. Russia, the United Kingdom, the United States, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, LAS, OIC, EU, UN.
3- Level of the conference: foreign ministers, heads of regional organizations, with possible preparatory meetings of experts.
4- Expected outcome: all conference participants undertake to exert all their influence on the Syrian parties in order to immediately stop the armed conflict and fully comply with their obligations under Kofi Annan’s Plan and UN Security Council Resolutions 2042. and 2043.br> …

More at the link.

While that sounds good anybody who wants the foreign fed Syrian conflict to end with as little bloodshed as possible, those who are committed to regime change and the destruction of the Syrian state will likely try to sabotage this attempt or, if that does fails, to undermine any result such a conference might bring.

Let's see if Russia can actually shame everybody to take part in this.

Posted by b on June 10, 2012 at 15:13 UTC | Permalink

Comments

The west with ‘friends’ has consistently disrupted any Russian and Chinese attempt to even hold both government and rebel violence to account. Anny real attempt to get the rebels to lay down their arms, and foreign countries to stop arming the rebels and funding foreign mercenairies will surely be obstructed by those dictatorships who fear the Syrian governments democratic reforms, the Saudi-Americans and Quatar, with backing from USrael France and UK.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 10 2012 15:33 utc | 1

Here’s what I think about Lavrov’s proposed conference:
(1) The core objective of Free Syrian Army and other opposition factions is the overthrow of the Assad government. It is not negotiable for them! The government has the support of the majority of the people and the army, and so the government will not even consider acceeding to the rebels’ objective. So there are no grounds for a peaceful, negotaiated settlement; Lavrov has no grounds “to negotiate practical steps aimed at finding a durable political solution”.
(2) The Western powers want Assad toppled, and ideally seek to weaken the Syrian state in the process. When you listen to what they are saying, their stance is riddled with contradictions. But divide and conquer is their game, especially the American’s game. The way to “divide and conquer” is to continue to support the weaker party, the rebels. You saw how the West reacted to the Al-Houal massacre, i.e. they accused pro-government people of the massacre with no evidence other than the claims of dissidents who are known to be highly unreliable. From that and from lots of other outputs from the West that you’ve seen yourself, I’m convinced that the West has no intention go along with Lavrov’s desire that they “exert all their influence on the Syrian parties in order to immediately stop the armed conflict”.
(3) Russia’s proposed international conference would have the effect of further internationalizing Syria’s internal affairs. Without any hope of a positive (peaceful political) outcome Lavrov says he imagines possible from such a conference. If Russia can actually get everybody to take part in this, they would use it as another platform to reiterate their talking points that “Assad has lost all legitmacy and must resign”, etc.
(4) Moreover, in such a conference, all the enemies of Syria would surely insist that the Syrian government should continue to curtail its use of force against the rebels. They have gotten that concession from Syria right now; I cannot imagine them agreeing to give it up and give the Syrian army a free hand to put down the rebellion. Whereas the one and only thing that can bring peace and civility to Syria is a sustained full attack upon the rebels by the Syrian army.
(5) Syria already has democratic institutions and a modern Constitution, etc. The Syrian dispute is about the continuance of the governance of the country by the Assadists. This dispute must be resolved by democratic elections and the Will of the people of Syria. It cannot be resolved by international conferences. If the international conference were to endorse democratic elections as the decider to end the dispute, the outcome of such elections would CERTAINLY be re-election of the Assadists by a comfortable margin. Therefore, the rebels will not accept such elections and the West will not endorse such elections.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 10 2012 16:38 utc | 2

The following link has an interview about Syria with a former Chinese ambassador to Egypt and Tunisia. This former ambassador, An Huihou, is pretty well-informed about the Syria sitution as well as about the Chinese government’s policy towards it. He adds to my conviction that China is going to say firmly with Russia on the issue. http://gbtimes.com/third-angle/syria/third-angle-syria/interview-chinas-former-ambassador-huihou-syria
Among other things he says:

“I believe that the likelihood of Western powers attacking Syria is not very high [and he goes on to give four reasons for that belief]…. However, Western powers’ determination to topple al-Assad’s regime has not diminished. They have adopted means other than military intervention to pressure Assad’s regime to resign…. The opposition does not possess enough power to topple the regime, but since Western powers are supporting them it is very difficult for al-Assad to suppress them….
Within the Arab League countries, the political stances towards Syria are not consistent, they are constantly developing and changing….
Changing the regime of a country is an internal affair, and should be settled by and among the citizens of the country. Questions such as the legitimacy of al-Assad’s government or the resignation of the president cannot be decided under the influence of a foreign nation, or through the resolutions of an international organization. That would count as foreign interference. China maintains its consistent policy of not interfering with the internal affairs of other countries….”

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 10 2012 16:53 utc | 3

Bassma Kodmani of the Syrian National Council is caught attending the Bilderberg 2012 meeting
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-news-blog/2012/jun/05/bilderberg-2012-chantilly-occupy?newsfeed=true

Posted by: nikon | Jun 10 2012 17:14 utc | 4

It is an exceedingly fundamental point is that the Assad government has been and will be the winner in any and all free and fair elections. In case you’re not sure that that exceedingly fundamental point is true and correct, I refer you to my long post about it on this board on 19 March 2012 (which was written in anticipation of the parliamentary elections of 7 May 2012), where I listed over 20 reasons why the Assad government and the Baath party is so strong in democratic elections: http://www.moonofalabama.org/2012/03/open-thread-2012-07.html#c6a00d8341c640e53ef0168e90185c0970c
If the West were to be consistent in its pro-democracy position, it would have to endorse democratic elections for Syria. But the rebels will continue to boycott elections because in elections they lose bigly. As the West continues to support both the rebels and democracy, the West’s position is incoherent and self-contradictory.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 10 2012 17:18 utc | 5

The BBC shows 4 minutes of an alternative view on Syria! The video is of poor quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bwElyCdbfg&list=UUl7HuaWMEVNRVDDR-NFm6EA&index=1&feature=plcp

Posted by: Amar | Jun 10 2012 17:21 utc | 6

massively OT, but, a little known piece of history from 6/8/67.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html

Posted by: ben | Jun 10 2012 18:16 utc | 7

This is priceless. Garbage incarnate in high dudgeon:
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-283084-israeli-deputy-prime-minister-mofaz-accuses-syria-of-genocide.html

Posted by: cm | Jun 10 2012 19:41 utc | 8

They’re censoring over at Josh Landis’ CIA front. Too bad this was taken down, as it offers some direct bearing as to the Big players behind the Syria disaster. Be sure to watch all parts it came out in 2009, straight from the belly of the beast- top UK propaganda. Mighty odd if you ask me.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/4515126/Blackjack-Part-3.html?image=7

Posted by: cm | Jun 10 2012 20:20 utc | 9

7 Jun 2012, Hillary Clinton says: “We must continue to close off the regime’s economic lifelines, expand the circle of countries vigorously implementing sanctions, and prevent the Syrian government from evading them…. The regime-sponsored violence that we witnessed in Hama yesterday [6 Jun 2012] is simply unconscionable…. Assad must transfer power and depart Syria…. Interim representative government must be established through negotiation…. The time has come for the international community to unite around a plan for post-Assad Syria.” http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-06/07/c_123245852.htm , http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/42716-clinton-says-syria-violence-unconscionable-assad-must-go , http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-syria-violence-20120608,0,412899.story . Also 7 Jun 2012, US Treasury Secretary Timoth Geither says: “Strong sanctions, effectively implemented, aggressively enforced, can help deprive the Syrian regime of the resources it needs to sustain itself and to continue its repression of the Syrian people.” http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-06/07/c_131635842.htm
Therefore I say Lavrov’s international conference proposal should be scrapped, and Lavrov should not be trying to advance it.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 10 2012 21:23 utc | 10

so the colonialists should just be allowed to bomb and install new govts where ever and whenever they like?

Posted by: georgeLJ | Jun 10 2012 21:36 utc | 11

Christian genocide pending. Where are concerned American xtians? http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/world-news/detail/articolo/siria-syria-15868/

Posted by: merl | Jun 10 2012 22:57 utc | 12

Here’s from the twitter account of Russia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, http://twitter.com/#!/MFA_Russia , with my comments added in itals:
Lavrov, 9 Jun 2012: “The [proposed new] conference on Syria must do away with the negative interference from external players and get them to help stop the bloodshed.” [I say that’s hopeless wishful thinking because the external players say they want regime change as an essential outcome of any negotiated settlement; i.e. the external players are committed to “negative interference”.].
Lavrov, 9 Jun 2012: “A mechanism is needed to ensure the non-militarisation of Syria’s cities after the withdrawal of government forces.” [I say every such mechanism is an impossibility; it is insane to withdraw government forces from cities].
Lavrov, 9 Jun 2012: “The implementation of Kofi Annan’s plan is not a hopeless situation.” [I disagree, and so does Kofi I think, and so does just about everybody else too].
Lavrov, 9 Jun 2012: “External players are preventing Syrians from coming to an agreement, urging one side to continue with the fight.” [I disagree: at this stage, as I see it, the rebel side is committed to fight regardless of urging from foreigners. Thus it is not the foreigners that is preventing the Syrians from coming to an agreement.].
Lavrov, 9 Jun 2012: “What will happen with Syria will show the way the world is going: will the world rely on the UN Charter or the right of the strong.” [The Western powers say they are not going to intervene militarily in Syria. After due consideration, I believe them, and I also believe they won’t be changing their minds about it either. It follows for me that the Assad government should terminate the Annan plan at the earliest opportunity and take the fight to the rebels.]
Lavrov, 9 Jun 2012: “Judging by the ethnic composition of the territory, the tragedy in Houla is a Sunni-Shia issue.” [I disagreed in an earlier thread].
Lavrov, 9 Jun 2012: “We are disturbed by the external players’ reaction to Syrian events – open support for armed opposition and calls for regime change.” [Thank you for that, comrade Sergei.]

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 10 2012 23:04 utc | 13

cm 9
yes ive been censored at Syriacomment: Landis site….

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 0:56 utc | 14

This is priceless. Garbage incarnate in high dudgeon:
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-283084-israeli-deputy-prime-minister-mofaz-accuses-syria-of-genocide.html
Posted by: cm | Jun 10, 2012 3:41:23 PM | 8
yes Israel is pursing slow motion genocide:
http://www.kadaitcha.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/palestineshrinks.jpg
israeli jews may not say: ‘were going to wipe palestine off the map’…they just do it

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 0:59 utc | 15

in french: Mother Agnes on HOMS and Qousseir
‘Finally, one of the saddest news: the girl RS, Greek Orthodox who was kidnapped three weeks of Bustan Diwan, in the Christian neighborhood of Homs, was returned to her parents in an alarming state. She says she was taken by armed men on a farm beyond the roundabout at the entrance of Palmyra south of Homs and then about thirty men raped her. She is currently in a hospital in Damascus. His condition is pitiful. She is in shock. She heard the men tell her they were permitted by Sheikh Arour as war booty’
http://www.maryakub.org/Article_dernieres_nouvelles_de_Homs_et_Qousseir_1_avril_2012.html
and tells of syrians being herded into a building by the insurgentys which is then blown up..recalls a similar event in Gaza 2008:
‘Some examples of powerful savage acts perpetrated by armed gangs affiliated with the opposition:
When the regular army has forced Baba Amro terrorists have gathered all their hostages (Alawi and Christians) in a building they blew up Khalidiyeh perpetrating a terrible massacre and attributing it to the regular forces. Even if the act was attributed to the regular forces, including by the Arab League, the evidence and testimony are irrefutable: it is a corrupt gangs affiliated with the opposition.
Al Amoura The family, the village Al Durdâk, in the vicinity of Homs, was exterminated by the Wahabi terrorists. Forty-one people in this family were slaughtered the same day. Another massacre was perpetrated by the Army of Free Syria back from Baba Amro: it stopped near Rableh, on the Lebanese border and massacred fourteen members of one family to Hasibiyeh Alawite.’

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 1:22 utc | 16

A phone call between two NATO terrorist mercenaries preparing for a massacre against citizens of al-Haffah area.
With English and Italian subtitles…
http://youtu.be/ttKWT-6jIn4

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 1:31 utc | 17

>>>…those dictatorships who fear the Syrian governments democratic reforms…>>>
Alexander, it’s obvious the countries you listed are going all out to remove the regime for ideological and political reasons but saying that they fear its democratic reforms is an overstretch.

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 4:09 utc | 18

I doubt it. The new constitution seem genuinely democratic and the Syrian state attitude to religion, if those reforms were to spread down the arabian peninsula, would pose a real threat for the regimes of Saudi-Arabia, Quatar and for their oil-customers in the west. The pattern of who, when and why in the opposing forces speaks loads. If citicens in those oil-producing countries were to demand the same secular and democratic reforms, the regimes who deal oil to the west, at more or less set prises, would faulter fast.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 11 2012 4:24 utc | 19

Alexander, what are some examples of those reforms that could be a menace to countries like Saudia, Qatar and the UAE?

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 6:07 utc | 20

the saudis want a wall to wall wahhabi islamates in the levant…israel alone will be nonwahhabi

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 6:09 utc | 21

>>> in french: Mother Agnes on HOMS and Qousseir>>>
Looks like my guess about the Google translator was right, it’s now clear why you have problems with my posts. You left out the opening paragraph of the good Mother Agnes in which she describes how she personally interceded for the release by the army of 70 opposition militants being held after having had confessions beaten out of them for alleged terrorist acts. We have to be thankful there is was no torture involved.
Throughout her piece, she refers to the bad guys as armed terrorists affiliated with the opposition. In one instance, she puts the affiliated-with-the-opposition terrorists and the FSA in the same category.

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 7:11 utc | 22

>>> israel alone will be nonwahhabi>>>
Brian, are you predicting that all of the ME including Syria will become Wahabist? Since you’re familiar with ME issues, in what ways is Zionism different and why would Israel be spared?

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 7:17 utc | 23

>>> A phone call between two NATO terrorist mercenaries preparing for a massacre against citizens of al-Haffah area.
With English and Italian subtitles…>
The video appeared to be made of 3 separate audio tapes spliced into one, Brian. Odd that there aren’t many other ones of chatter between terrorists. You’d think the Syrian army would keep its wiretapping talents secret and not broadcast them on Italian Youtubes.

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 7:43 utc | 24

Syd Walker ‏@SydWalker
All too rarely the ABC interviews someone honest & informed about #Syria. Today, Patrick Seale:http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2012/06/bst_20120611_0638.mp3
We are told the monster Hague says syria ressembles Bosnia….for once id agree with the fellow…syria does resemble bosnia..for in bnoth we have foreign jihadis brought in by US/NATO to fight a local secular state and turn it into something else

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 7:52 utc | 25

Syria Speech Cut Off on June 7 Was Ordered by UN’s DuBach, ICP Learns, UN Stonewalls
By Matthew Russell Lee, Exclusive
UNITED NATIONS, June 10 — When UN Television went dark just as Syrian Ambassador Bashar Ja’afari began speaking in the General Assembly on June 7, Inner City Press linked it to the total black out of Ja’afari in an early session on Syria held in the ECOSOC chamber.
But UN spokespeople insisted to Inner City Press that it was just a “technical glitch.” At the June 8 UN noon briefing, Ban Ki-moon’s spokesman Martin Nesirky called it a miscommunication.
Sources in UN Television have provided further information to Inner City Press. They said it was no mis-communication, much less technical glitch: rather, they were ORDERED to effectuate the turn-off by the UN’s Michele DuBach, Acting Deputy Director-News & Media Operations.
And so Inner City Press wrote to Nesirky and his Associate Farhan Haq, as well as Ms. DuBach:
“I am writing for your comment on an exclusive story I am on deadline for, including that the call to turn off UN TV when Syria’s Permanent Representative Ja’afari began speaking in the General Assembly on June 7 was made by the UN’s Michele DuBach, Acting Deputy Director-News & Media Operations. If no response is received now, one can be added later. But if you can send something now, how ever brief, it will be included.”
While a UN corruption question Inner City Press submitted at the same time has yet to be answered, on this the spokesperson’s office answered:
Subject: Your question on UNTV
From: UN Spokesperson – Do Not Reply [at] un.org
To: Matthew.Lee [at] innercitypress.com
Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 5:20 PM
Regarding your question on UNTV’s broadcast last Thursday, this is what the Spokesperson had to say about it on Friday, 8 June:
“I have a message from our colleagues in the News and Media Division. They very much regret and apologize for the brief disruption of the UN’s broadcasting of the General Assembly meeting on Syria yesterday. This was due to a miscommunication within the division. Every effort is being made to prevent similar occurrences in the future.”
But Inner City Press was present at the June 8 noon briefing and heard that statement. It does not address the specific question — what was the role of Michele DuBach, Acting Deputy Director-News & Media Operations in ordering the cut off?
What is a “miscommunication,” for the UN? If as the UN TV sources say, DuBach said turn it off and they did, there was no miscommunication. Did someone erroneously tell DuBach to issue such an order? Who? Watch this site.
Footnote: it’s not just Syria – as Inner City Press also exclusively investigated, UN TV went dark when the Western Sahara representative of Polisario was speaking, due to a “miscommunication” by a Moroccan DPI official in charge….
http://innercitypress.com/dpi1cutsyria061012.html

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 7:54 utc | 26

This is not the first time they have censored Jafaari. One time he called a press conference to address it. This is so blatant. The smaller non-first world wealthy countries need to pull out of the UN altogether and quit giving it world authority.

Posted by: JL | Jun 11 2012 8:34 utc | 27

www @ 20
Really? You’re gonna force me to read up on ME countries constitutions? I was simply thinking about the Syrian rule that no party can be sectarian or religiously founded, and the fact that Quatar and Saudi-Arabia are dictatorships. With a Syrian constitution, a regal ruler surely would be impossible in both Quatar and Saudi-America.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 11 2012 8:46 utc | 28

‘The Arab League has thrown its weight behind the plan, warning Iran to halt its media campaign “and provocative statements from Iranian officials” against political and military union of the Gulf States.
“Any union steps between Bahrain and Saudi Arabia are a sovereign issue of the two states and other Gulf countries and no other country has the right to interfere in it,” said Arab League Secretary General Nabil Elaraby.’
http://www.silviacattori.net/article3248.html
arab league suddenly learns of the concept of sovereignty! How come GCC is allowed to interfere in sovereignty of Syria and Libya?
‘You invade Bahrain. We take out Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. This, in short, is the essence of a deal struck between the Barack Obama administration and the House of Saud’
http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD02Ak01.html

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 9:47 utc | 29

Alexander, that would be a waste of time since they don’t necessarily prove anything. In Syria, the new constitution now allows other than Baathist parties to run for elections but since these had been practically snuffed out for the past 40 years or so by the ruling Baathists, it was to be expected that these would not fare well in elections that were called within a few months of the new constitution. The elections therefore brought back to parliament more Baathists than existed before the constitution was amended. Now almost all nominations to all government posts are still being made by the Baathist machine that has not changed with the new constitution. Until this year’s amended constitution, 2/3 of parliamentary seats were reserved for the Baathist party.The Gulf countries are not good examples to compare with others but should be compared to other Gulf countries because they all have odd conditions in them. Curiously, Bahrain has a parliamentary system that puts power in the hands of the people, but it also has an upper house that’s nominated in majority by the king so it gives you an idea of who really calls the shots in that democracy. I think democracy is a wrong measuring stick being used. Syria’s new constitution allows a president 2 terms of 7 years each, which effectively gives President Assad the opportunity of staying in office for another 16 years (elections coming up in 2 years) and to have spent in office, a total of 28 years. If you compare it to “president for life”, 28 years appears as a major improvement.

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 10:35 utc | 30

I just watched this: http://www.debka.com/article/22073/Obama-speeds-up-limited-air-strike-no-fly-zones-preparations-for-Syria, is this more rhetoric or is this something we have to worry about?

Posted by: simon | Jun 11 2012 16:36 utc | 31

www @ 30
Yes indeed, thanks.
I think, if Syria was left to its own devises for a few years, the political reforms would turn out really good in democratic terms, and I am convinced that Saudi and Quatar tries to get a grasp on the ‘arab spring’ to steer it in a direction that is supposed to not threaten their own systems. And I take the US support in this effort as a confirmation of my subposition. Bashar al-Assad is a charismatic and refreshingly straight talking politician compared to the players in the west, that’s probably why he’s liked among the hard-to-convince readers of MoA, as is Putin.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 11 2012 16:43 utc | 32

simon @ 31
I think the western politicians are reading the Russian and Chinese wrong. The ones who has something to say in the west are not going along with the more adventurous military ones. China and Russia will never let another no-fly-zone pass the UN, and NATO will not embark on another non-sanctioned adventure.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 11 2012 16:48 utc | 33

Alexander, no it wouldn’t change in time but it’s not because of Assad but because of the regime solidly set in place over 40 years by his father. Bachar Assad is really a soft-spoken nice guy, an ophtalmologist that was made president by the regime when his father died in 2000. Bashar’s brother, Bassel, had been groomed to take over but he died in a car accident a few years before the father. The Baathists run everything in Syria. I read somewhere that the brother early on had started talking about improvements that had to be made and that this hadn’t gone over too well with the regime. Bachar too has been talking about making changes since 2000 but it’s been an uphill fight for him.

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 17:36 utc | 34

Simon, there is reason to worry. Those that don’t haven’t grasped the seriousness of what’s been happening and of the pressure being put on the US by Israel and the Gulf Arabs to go on with it.

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 17:52 utc | 35

Watch “the rebels” take out Sryian Army tank positions while speaking Arabic with an Israeli accent ?!? WTF
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/watch-syrian-rebels-take-control-of-missile-base-1.435553

Posted by: wasta | Jun 11 2012 19:23 utc | 36

Simon,
US sends radiation detectors to Jordan
Move aims to secure kingdom’s borders from radioactive material smuggled from Syria or Iran
June 11, 2012, Times of Israel
AMMAN, Jordan (AP) — Jordan says the United States has helped it boost its nuclear security by improving detection of radioactive materials at its borders as concern grows over instability in neighboring Syria.
The statement by the Jordan Nuclear Regulatory Commission was reported by the kingdom’s newspapers Monday.
Jordanian officials have expressed worries that radioactive materials from Syria and its ally Iran could be moved across Jordan’s border to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab countries in case of an all-out war in Syria.
Analysts say that Syria could host ongoing, illicit nuclear weapons activity by Iran and North Korea.
The US donated to Jordan 35 personal radiation detectors valued altogether at nearly $106,000 on Sunday. An embassy statement said it will curb nuclear proliferation and illicit trafficking of nuclear and radioactive materials.

Posted by: wasta | Jun 11 2012 19:28 utc | 37

Posted by: www | Jun 11, 2012 1:36:51 PM | 34
In my visits to Syria, alot of the average people seemed to genuinely like the ruling couple- even to be proud of their modern first lady & kids. That did not extend to the Baath party or Assad’s extended family however.

Posted by: wasta | Jun 11 2012 19:32 utc | 38

More on Mother Agnes introduced here by Brian; she just issued an urgenr SOS to anyone with influence with the opposition. She said that a few armed rebels are preventing about 200 Christian families from leaving their neighborhood in Homs to go to safe areas, and she is very worried about what may happen to them. Certain parts of the city are being shelled.

Posted by: www | Jun 11 2012 19:46 utc | 39

re 31, that’s just a DEBKA video. No reason to believe it. re 35 www, I think everyone has grasped the seriousness of an external attack upon Syria. It is only the US and Saudi who think that it can be done without consequences.
The Saudis, that’s an 85 year-old man, and his imaginings. What Saudi policy will be depends on his successors. If there is still one of Ibn Saoud’s brood still alive, then that will prolong the policy a few years more. The situation reminds me of the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik and his sons in the 7th-8th centuries AD. As soon as the sons were finished, so was the dynasty.

Posted by: alexno | Jun 11 2012 19:52 utc | 40

Posted by: brian | Jun 11, 2012 3:54:38 AM | 26
The reporter you refer to was emailed a death threat by one of the govt’s at the UN- whose corruption he whistle blew- after said govt’s top newspaper echoed it in their national press. Death threat was cc’d to UN officials and when confronted with it at UN noon briefing the UN bureaucrat tossed it off. If anything happens to this reporter in future- both UN and its spokesman need be SUED to the fullest extent possible. (SEE UN webcast noon briefing)
BTW: the MSM media has also formed a committee to expel this reporter for uncovering MSM corruption w/ diplomat payment-in-kind and conflict of interest. Bears watching…

Posted by: wasta | Jun 11 2012 21:57 utc | 41

wasta @41
which govt issued the death threat?

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 23:44 utc | 42

wasta @41
any links to those stories ?

Posted by: brian | Jun 11 2012 23:49 utc | 43

Brian @ 26 — Thanks for finding that info about the UN TV. I’d been meaning to see what Inner City Press had to say about that “glitch.” Amazing, and not the first time this game has been played.
UN personnel capture by the hegemon? Or what? Threats?

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 12 2012 1:02 utc | 44

Simon @ 31 — Time to worry about US/NATO direct aggression on Syria? Uh, I think so, but can’t be sure. Obama fancies himself a War Leader, and he doesn’t want to let anyone interfere with his image as Big Chief, Strong Man holding firm against Bad People.
Yikes. I don’t think Obama would undertake another war unless he’s persuaded it will be a short one, that he can emerge victorious from by end of summer with plenty of time to milk it before the election.
However, Debka may be playing its and Israel’s tactics to achieve who knows what.
I was surprised today to hear Western journalists on the BBC and NPR suddenly talking quite a bit about Syrian aerial tactics. Heretofore, there’s been so little mention of any use of air space by the government that I was wondering why the government hadn’t been surveilling rebel held areas. But today it was reported that drones were overhead, as surveillance, pinpointing where rebels –er, “activists, but maybe the West’s MCMers are beginning to call the opposition “rebels” — were located, so that the artillery could try to hit those locations. Then later today there was talk not only of drones, with a clarification on NPR that the Syrians have no weaponized drones, aka sophisticated drones, and that helicopters are being used to attack rebel strongholds and this evening mention was made of “gunships” being used to attach rebels.
But reporters also are now talking about how the rebels have more weaponry of their own. On Newshour or CBS a reported talked about the anti-tank weapons the now better equipped rebels have to use. No mention of where they get those weapons.
The gunships were mentioned by a State Dept. spokesperson, who also mentioned drones and helicopters.
The word is not out that Syria is abusing its people with air power, so, next step, if following the Libyan plan, is no-fly, with the preliminary taking out command and control locations, probably radar.
Does Russia still have naval presence just off the Syrian shore?

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 12 2012 1:24 utc | 45

wasta and alexno at 39/40 re: the Haaretz video — The lower banner ad I got was for the New York Shcool of Theatre and Drama. A clue?

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 12 2012 1:31 utc | 46

http://webtv.un.org/media/daily-noon-press-briefings/watch/daily-press-briefing-sg-hivaids-appointments-côte-d’ivoire-iraq-libya-latin-america/1684365309001
@5:58 Matthew is the only reporter up there who actually REALLY demands a concrete answer and refuses bureaucrats’ stonewalling. they dont like it. spokesperson rarely gives any real answer to anything but generic blah, blah, blah. most of these petty UN flunkeys are totally useless except to obfuscate
he reveals death threat at 15:40 -go to inner city press website for the sri lanka newspaper that named him also. there is NO followup by the spokesperson who should be fired.

Posted by: wasta | Jun 12 2012 3:56 utc | 47

Those drones being talked about are most probably American or Israeli spy drones. Syria is not known to have drones, especially armed ones.

Posted by: www | Jun 12 2012 4:48 utc | 48

@www | Jun 12, 2012 12:48:50 AM | 48
Iran has, in fact it has recently been showing off some of it latest drone designs. I guess they need battle field testing.

Posted by: hans | Jun 12 2012 4:59 utc | 49

no offence to iran, but i doubt their bite is anywhere near to their bark. last drone they ‘flew’ didnt get off the ground

Posted by: JL | Jun 12 2012 5:35 utc | 50

US drones are having some troubles too
this one crashed in maryland….that USA
link

Posted by: brian | Jun 12 2012 11:29 utc | 51

jawboe @44
UN taken over…..i suggest you review this film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAY37Zd6mIE&feature=related
invasion of the bodysnatchers!

Posted by: brian | Jun 12 2012 11:33 utc | 52

another film which ive just watched and is relevant is IT a 1990 film about a bunch of kids who band together to defeat a monster simply called IT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fj8Ch-F9XU
power in numbers!

Posted by: brian | Jun 12 2012 11:36 utc | 53

Here we go again, it’s bullshit time about weapons of mass destruction and this time the accusation by the worst war criminals. Someome in Washington must have pressed a button to set the disinformation campaign in motion. Thierry Meyssan may not be so wrong about the June 15th date after all:
From the Qatari-owned Daily Star of Beirut:
Syria has world’s biggest chemical arsenal: Israel June 12, 2012 12:53 AM
OCCUPIED JERUSALEM: Syria has the “biggest chemical weapons arsenal in the world,” which it could use to threaten the Jewish state, Israel’s deputy chief of the general staff has warned.
“Syria has built up the biggest chemical weapons arsenal in the world and has missiles and rockets capable of reaching any part of Israeli territory,” Major General Yair Naveh said Sunday night in comments carried on Israeli military radio Monday.
Naveh pointed to the deadly crackdown on anti-government protesters being waged by President Bashar Assad and his forces, saying it was proof that Syria would show no restraint in any attack on Israel.
“The Syrians who treat their people that way will do the same to us if they have the opportunity,” he said.
Israel has been raising the alarm for months over Syria’s chemical weapons stockpiles, with the head of the army’s northern command afraid that they could end up in the hands of Hezbollah.
Israeli military analysts say Syria has spent the past 40 years producing Sarin and nerve gas, as well as mustard gas, which can be used in missiles.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Jun-12/176498-syria-has-worlds-biggest-chemical-arsenal-israel.ashx#axzz1xaZV2m8p

Posted by: www | Jun 12 2012 14:39 utc | 54

cm at 9, thx for the link to the Telegraph Blackjack series, didn’t know about it and watched the whole thing.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/4515126/Blackjack-Part-3.html?image=7
Shades of Orwell!
It is the case that the public is prepared and softened up with media memes and factoids so that they, a) are not surprised, while being personally stunned and shocked at death and violence, b) have an immediate interpretation to hand, which was heavily suggested before, c) therefore fall in with the official scenario.
Binny was built up as a poster-boy terrorist and was all over the US MSM TV for several years before 9/11. Army Manuals, movies, TV series, news articles, think-tank pieces, supposed warnings from spooks, all described or hinted at a Muslim attack on TALL buildings, usually the WTC itself.
Then after the deed Bush and Condi Rice went on the blue screen to state that nobody could imagine ppl actually sending ‘suicide’ planes into buildings!
So that works, because the public who heard them thought, but OH! I myself am not surprised, it is true that it was ‘the islam terrarists.’ Ha ha.
Clever. So the Dems – left snidely and fakely attack the Bush Admin for not being on their toes, not doing what was needed to prevent the destruction of the WTC complex – intelligence failures, lack of communication, blockage, misinterpretation, no coordination between different entities (CIA, FBI, etc. etc.), no control in airports, alerts not followed up, military, aviation on the blink, alarmists and whistleblowers dismissed, etc. etc.
To get he public outraged after the fact, after the the destruction and death, when it is all over, and have minor ‘beefs’ that can easily be explained away.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 12 2012 16:13 utc | 55

Syrian army today pounded rebels in several cities and appears to be hitting many civilians including children in the process. Rebels put out a video that shows it having taken over one of the missile bases; could be a doctored video as they have been doing that for a year. The UN observers came under shelling, some of it by the army.

Posted by: www | Jun 12 2012 17:33 utc | 56

‘Syria has world’s biggest chemical arsenal: Israel June 12, 2012 12:53 AM ‘
bigger than the one in the US?

Posted by: brian | Jun 12 2012 21:35 utc | 57

‘Israel has been raising the alarm for months over Syria’s chemical weapons stockpiles, with the head of the army’s northern command afraid that they could end up in the hands of Hezbollah.
Israeli military analysts say Syria has spent the past 40 years producing Sarin and nerve gas, as well as mustard gas, which can be used in missiles.’
‘trust us, would we lie’ sorry but the land of a hundred nukes has zero credibility

Posted by: brian | Jun 12 2012 21:37 utc | 58

why do you suppose the hundreds/thousands of jihadis have never combined to attack Israel? has noone bothered to do what we see now with Syria and libya: gather them to the borders of israel? infiltrate across and sow terror i israel? or are the bearded ones not supportive of the palestinians…
and yet:
‘There are a lot of soldiers of fortune among the bandits. They are Chechens, Romanians, French, Libyans, and Afghans. Moreover, there was a very funny accident with Afghan soldiers. A few Afghans were caught and asked, ‘What are you doing here?’ They replied, ‘We were told that we came to Israel, and at night we are shooting at Israeli buses. We are fighting with the enemy to liberate Palestine.’ It might be funny, but it is true. The guys were really surprised, ‘Are we in Syria? We thought we were in Israel!’’
http://gbtimes.com/third-angle/syria/syria/eyewitness-account-media-lies-about-syria
so there are jihadis ready willing and able to go to israel…instead they find themselves in…syria! how did they end up there? who sent them there? a question that needs answering…who is sending the jihadis to syria?

Posted by: brian | Jun 12 2012 21:44 utc | 59

re www 56
Syrian army today pounded rebels in several cities and appears to be hitting many civilians including children in the process. Rebels put out a video that shows it having taken over one of the missile bases; could be a doctored video as they have been doing that for a year. The UN observers came under shelling, some of it by the army.
Do you believe it?
I’m sure the Syrian army is shelling. That’s what an army would do to discourage a military insurgency. You haven’t mentioned the killings by the insurgents. It’s pretty much equal these days.

Posted by: alexno | Jun 12 2012 22:16 utc | 60

>>>Do you believe it? >>>
Alexno, we’ve been talking about the killings by insurgents for a while so I wouldn’t be telling you anything new. Did you think it’s impossible for the army to have inadvertently or carelessly killed civilians in its shelling of whole neighborhoods? You’re hinting that I shouldn’t believe this bit of news and saying that it would be normal for the army to be shelling insurgents; which is it? I mentioned the flow of bogus insurgent videos in my post as I’m not rooting for either side to win in this conflict. I’m just rooting for NATO to fail in its wicked campaign to turn Syria into another Libya.

Posted by: www | Jun 13 2012 5:22 utc | 61

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