Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 22, 2012
Downed Turkish Jet May Not Change Turkish People’s Nonintervention Opinion

This will create some very interesting reactions:

Turkey's military says it has lost contact with one of its military aircraft over the sea close to the border with Syria.

Turkish media said the plane had crashed into Syrian territorial waters.

However, eyewitnesses in the northern Syrian town of Latakia told BBC Arabic that Syrian air defences shot down an unidentified aircraft near the town of Ras al-Baseet.

Ras al-Baseet is in Syria about 10 miles from the Turkish border.

Most interesting will be how the Turkish people will react to that. So far a wide majority of Turks is against any intervention in Syria:

An opinion poll by the Ankara Social Research Center published this month has found that more than two-thirds of those polled opposed any intervention by Turkey in Syria. The poll also revealed that a majority, even those who support the Turkish prime minister's party, believed Ankara should not take sides in the conflict.

Erdogan is facing critic even inside his party for having miscalculated on Syria and having been overly eager to support the Syrian opposition.

I find it unlikely that the downed jet will change that.

Comments

This is a kick in the face at the Turks, and is sure to lower the bar for a military engagement. Maybe taking off the ‘c’ in front of their ‘covert’ war.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 22 2012 14:34 utc | 1

If this plane was shot down by Syrian air defense units – then it will be a warning to other countries who are thinking of carrying out sir strikes on “humanitarian grounds”.
Hopefully, this slap will make the rebels and their backers realise that no foriegn air armada is going to come anytime soon – and if they do, it will be at a high price. So they will either have to either fight it out themselves or come to the negotiating table.
Time will tell.

Posted by: Irshad | Jun 22 2012 14:36 utc | 2

what were they doing? testing this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Weasel
I agree, Irshad, it is now all about convincing the rebels to fight on … or not.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 22 2012 15:00 utc | 3

A Turkish military aircraft has crashed in Syria, according to media reports. A local witness has told RT Arabic that the plane crashed on Syrian territory and the two pilots were captured. The plane appears to have been shot down, the witness said. The craft went down as Syrian air defense opened fire, says Lebanon-based Al-Mayadeen TV.
Media says Syria’s defense systems have shot down a foreign plane not far from the Turkish border, adds Ihab Sultan. Official sources only confirm a crash of one plane. The Turkish daily Hurriyet also reports the two pilots have been rescued by Turkish helicopters. A search and rescue operation has been launched after the Turkish military lost radar and radio contact at 11.58 a.m. local time. The jet took off from Erhac Airport in the eastern province of Malatya to take part in ongoing war-games.

Source: http://www.rt.com/news/turkey-contact-aircraft-sea-498/
Sounds like alot of confusion at the moment. Can’t find any info on Turkish war games scheduled.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jun 22 2012 15:00 utc | 4

colm @4
so the turks just went into Syria and took back the pilots?

Posted by: brian | Jun 22 2012 15:05 utc | 5

Apparently it was downed in Syrian territory. Could be some operation relating to SAM-mapping like somebody @ 3 implied. If it was violating Syrian air-space, then there’s no justification for retaliation is it.

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 22 2012 15:17 utc | 6

fortunate the pilots survived after being shot down, if true. if they were captured, questioned, and then released back to turkish rescue this would be an interesting development tho i question it. what were they doing there is the question and i hope it deters others from intervention via aircraft.

Posted by: annie | Jun 22 2012 15:21 utc | 7

@brian
Hezbollah’s Al Manar television reporting it went down over the Mediterranean in Syrian territory, so don’t know about a rescue. Plane itself was an F-4 jet, which indicates that somebody’s claim of it being a wild weasel tactic used to bait Anti-Aircraft defences could be likely.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jun 22 2012 15:21 utc | 8

Hurriyet: Syria apologizes for taking down Turkish warplane: Turkish PM

Syrian authorities have apologized for taking down a military plane that had lost contact with the Turkish Armed Forces earlier today, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said.
The plane was taken down by Syrian forces, an official Turkish source confirmed to Hürriyet Daily News.
The pilots of a crashed Turkish military plane have been rescued by forces, daily Hürriyet reported.
The pilots, who are in good health, were located in the Mediterranean Sea.
A missing warplane that lost contact with Turkish Armed Forces earlier today crashed in Syrian territorial waters, Doğan news agency has reported.

RT: Turkish warplane shot down over Syria, pilots captured – witness to RT

A Turkish military aircraft has crashed in Syria, according to media reports. A local witness has told RT Arabic that the plane crashed on Syrian territory and the two pilots were captured.
­The plane appears to have been shot down, the witness said. The craft went down as Syrian air defense opened fire, says Lebanon-based Al-Mayadeen TV.
Other unconfirmed reports suggest that Syria has shot at two Turkish fighter jets that entered Syrian airspace.
“Witnesses spotted two jets flying in from Turkish territory. One of the planes went down in Syria’s territorial waters, while the other one made off despite being damaged,” Ihab Sultan, a local journalist in Syria, tells RT.
“Syrian security sources confirmed to a Manar correspondent in Damascus that Syrian defense forces shot down the Turkish fighter jet,” reports Lebanon-based Al-Manar TV.
Official sources only confirm a plane crashed over the Mediterranean Sea off the south eastern province of Hatay, which borders Syria.

Posted by: b | Jun 22 2012 15:22 utc | 9

thanks for the update from Hurriyet. reuters reports

“Syrian security sources confirmed to a Manar correspondent in Damascus that Syrian defence forces shot down the Turkish fighter jet,”

Posted by: annie | Jun 22 2012 15:30 utc | 10

fun part of the RT article, Colm O’ Toole, is this
“A similar incident happened on Thursday when a Syrian pilot and his fighter jet defected to Jordan. The plane made an emergency landing just across the border, and the pilot appealed for political asylum.”
similar????

Posted by: somebody | Jun 22 2012 15:53 utc | 11

A similarely plane-related incident… as far as similarities go, this isn’t the most similar kind of incidents..

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 22 2012 16:02 utc | 12

Turkey is NATO so it would be the perfect excuse to bring up all the ‘cavalry’ to the conflict. So it’s a quite interesting ‘event’.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 22 2012 16:10 utc | 13

“similar incident” – Maybe the Turkish pilots wanted to defect to Syria?

Weird – It seems to turn out that there was no apology? Or at least Erdogan now claiming that there was none? “REU: TURKISH PM SAYS HAS NO FIRM INFORMATION ON ANY APOLOGY FROM SYRIA, WILL MAKE FURTHER STATEMENT AFTER SECURITY MEETING”
Erdogan is meeting with some generals this evening. There will certainly be interesting discussions …

Posted by: b | Jun 22 2012 17:00 utc | 14

Erdogan is saying he hasn’t heard any apology. Looks like those missiles work after all.

Posted by: www | Jun 22 2012 17:03 utc | 15


Saudi Arabia plans to fund Syria rebel army

Exclusive: Command centre in Turkey organising weapon supply to opposition

Saudi officials are preparing to pay the salaries of the Free Syria Army as a means of encouraging mass defections from the military and increasing pressure on the Assad regime, the Guardian has learned.
The move, which has been discussed between Riyadh and senior officials in the US and Arab world, is believed to be gaining momentum as a recent flush of weapons sent to rebel forces by Saudi Arabia and Qatar starts to make an impact on battlefields in Syria.

Turkey has also allowed the establishment of a command centre in Istanbul which is co-ordinating supply lines in consultation with FSA leaders inside Syria. The centre is believed to be staffed by up to 22 people, most of them Syrian nationals.
The Guardian witnessed the transfer of weapons in early June near the Turkish frontier. Five men dressed in the style of Gulf Arabs arrived in a police station in the border village of Altima in Syria and finalised a transfer from the Turkish town of Reyhanli of around 50 boxes of rifles and ammunition, as well as a large shipment of medicines.
The men were treated with deference by local FSA leaders and were carrying large bundles of cash. They also received two prisoners held by rebels, who were allegedly members of the pro-regime militia, the Shabiha.
The influx of weapons has reinvigorated the insurrection in northern Syria, which less than six weeks ago was on the verge of being crushed.
The move to pay the guerrilla forces’ salaries is seen as a chance to capitalise on the sense of renewed confidence, as well as provide a strong incentive for soldiers and officers to defect. The value of the Syrian pound has fallen sharply in value since the anti-regime revolt started 16 months ago, leading to a dramatic fall in purchasing power.

Posted by: b | Jun 22 2012 17:21 utc | 16

More from the Guardian piece above:

The US senator Joe Lieberman, who is actively supporting the Syrian opposition, discussed the issue of FSA salaries during a recent trip to Lebanon and Saudi Arabia.

“Senator Lieberman also supports the idea of ensuring that the armed opposition fighters receive regular and sufficient pay, although he does not believe it is necessary for the United States to provide this funding itself directly.”

Diplomatic sources have told the Guardian two US intelligence officers were in Syria’s third city of Homs between December and early February, trying to establish command and control within rebel ranks.
Interviews with officials in three states reveal the influx of weapons – which includes kalashnikovs, rocket propelled grenades and anti-tank missiles – started in mid-May, when Saudi Arabia and Qatar finally moved on pledges they had made in February and March to arm rebel forces.
The officials, who insisted on anonymity, said the final agreement to move weapons from storage points inside Turkey into rebel hands was hard won, with Ankara first insisting on diplomatic cover from the Arab states and the US.

Posted by: b | Jun 22 2012 17:25 utc | 17

>>> Apparently it was downed in Syrian territory>>>
Turkish navy fished the 2 aviators out of the Med, 80 miles from Syria’s coast.

Posted by: www | Jun 22 2012 17:28 utc | 18

tnx www

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 22 2012 17:48 utc | 19

that’s old news b. Saudi Arabia has said that weeks ago …:-))

Posted by: somebody | Jun 22 2012 17:51 utc | 20

more fun
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-284399-not-clear-if-turkish-warplane-downed-by-syria-erdogan-says.html
no apology, no shoot down …

Posted by: somebody | Jun 22 2012 17:52 utc | 21

oh, and no weapons …
http://world.time.com/2012/06/22/opening-the-weapons-tap-syrias-rebels-await-fresh-and-free-ammo/

Posted by: somebody | Jun 22 2012 18:35 utc | 22

“Could be some operation relating to SAM-mapping like somebody @ 3 implied.”
I’m a bit skeptical of that possibility. The US has drones all over Syria doing this, why would Turkey risk a manned aircraft?

Posted by: Bill | Jun 22 2012 18:51 utc | 23

This is unbelievable. For months Turks have committed acts of war against Syria. Syria FINALLY responds to an act of war over SYRIAN coastal waters, and then SYRIA apologizes to Turkey for shooting down a legitimate Turk target in self defense???
http://www.albawaba.com/news/syria-apologizes-shooting-down-turkish-warplane-430846

Posted by: file2 | Jun 22 2012 19:14 utc | 24

that plane seems to have crashed into a political mess
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/22/222135.html??
no there was no apology and Erdogan is not sure the plane was shot down

Posted by: somebody | Jun 22 2012 20:08 utc | 25

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18561219
There will now be a media pause while the World Community considers its options.

Posted by: dh | Jun 22 2012 22:28 utc | 26

A military spokesman for Syria issued the following statement this evening:

At 11:40 AM on 22/6/2012, an unidentified aerial target violated Syrian airspace, coming from the west at a very low altitude and at high speed over territorial waters. So the Syrian anti-air defenses counteracted with anti-aircraft artillery, hitting it directly as it was 1 kilometer away from land, causing it to crash into Syrian territorial waters west of Om al-Tuyour village in Lattakia province, 10 kilometers from the beach. The spokesman added that the target turned out to be a Turkish military plane that entered Syrian airspace and was dealt with according to laws observed in such cases. http://www.sana.sy/eng/21/2012/06/23/427102.htm

Dealt with according to well-established international laws. End of story. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along, please. Cut out the “rubbernecking”.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 22 2012 22:42 utc | 27

It’s not clear what exactly happened. Hopefully this can be managed to prevent further escalation. And I do think a majority of Turkish citizens will still be against military confrontation with Syria. There are elements in the media in Turkey who will try to and are already whipping up a frenzy but hopefully they won’t succeed. The plane was probably an RF4 reconnaissance plane. Right now nothing certain sections of the media says can be taken seriously, first Turkish navy had saved the pilots, then Syria saved the pilots, etc. etc.

Posted by: kodlu | Jun 22 2012 22:48 utc | 28

Taken down with antiaircraft artillery fire from one mile out? Coming in at high speed? That is some pretty good shooting or very lucky.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jun 22 2012 23:32 utc | 29

@ ToivoS: The Syrian military statement says it first saw the violation of Syrian airspace at 11:40 AM. It doesn’t say the time the plane was shot down, but the Turkish military statement says the plane was shot down at 11:58 AM. Assuming those statements are about correct, and assuming the anti-aircraft gun has computer programming for projecting forward the path of the fast-moving plane and for hitting it (please don’t assume the gun is being aimed by just some dude just taking a guess), then luck isn’t involved.
Now I’ll change the subject. On Friday 22 Jun 2012 Turkish foreign ministry spokesperson Selcuk Ünal was asked whether Turkey was involved in arms delivery to Syrian rebels, as has recently been rumoured in some newspapers. He replied: “Turkey does not ship weapons to any neighbouring country, including Syria.” He rebuffed the news articles, and pointed out that such articles were based on unidentified sources. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-denies-arms-shipment-to-syria-opposition.aspx?pageID=238&nID=23797&NewsCatID=338

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 23 2012 0:17 utc | 30

Although I agree that the circumstances were not similar it is a bit too coincidental to be just ignored. A Syrian pilot turns traitor & flies to Turkey within 48 hours, Turkey send a coupla warplanes in from the sea low and fast.
Remember the discussion t’other day about friendly codes?
Maybe the turks used the system from the stolen Syrian jet on the Turkish planes hoping that the Syrian air defence system wasn’t up with the play and would see the planes as ‘friendlies’.
Trouble was the Syrians were on the ball indicating that the imperial forces belief that they have a lot of support among sunni elements in the Syrian air force is likely delusional.
Now they have to wonder about their ‘defector’- is he really a traitor or a double? – the games continue because without some means of countering the Syrian government’s obvious superiority on the ground, they’re gonna run outta suitably-seasoned, israeli-trained Jordanians, to keep sending in stirring the pot.
That C&C attempt by the empire was back in February; I wouldn’t be betting large that many of those contacts who fukusi tried to develop from 4 months ago, are still breathing oxygen.
Or at least breathing it outside a prison cell, safe in the knowledge their brothers aren’t being housed & fed by the Syrian government, in order to aid their quisling kinfolk to rethink their position.
Andy Cockburn has written today on the bullshit surrounding amerikan claims of winning wars by bombing civilian populations- apart from being a massive war crime it simply doesn’t work. Bombs are handy to blow up tanks artillery, emplacements n the like but when it comes to the age old basic war business of capturing, securing and holding ground, aerial bombardment is near useless.
That means the only way these murdering fucks can destroy Syrian society is to fly regular sorties hunting military targets a la libya and they just aren’t gonna be able to do that legitimately.
Yeah NATO could beat up some bullshit excuse but amerika is the onliest bit of nato that hasn’t signed up to the international conventions making waging a war of aggression on another sovereign nation without a UN seal of approval, a war crime.
Meaning that even if they get their populations on side ( a dubious proposition getting more doubtful by the day) european pols aren’t keen on ‘going with the flow’ cause they know that a change of government/public sentiment in a few years could have them staring down the barrel of an 80 year jail term.
And ol’ oblamblam knows he is gonna have trouble with the rethug cries of hypocrisy and claims that he has used ‘our troops to solve a european problem that the eurotrash are too gutless to solve themselves’ if he tries to go it alone.
Libya had the euros in there plus it had oil, but an invasion of syria where all those unwhite scum live to give them democracy? “C’mon you cock-sucker liberals; now you wanna sacrifice ‘our troops’ for a bunch of sand-niggers?”
Oblamblam really needs a good chunk of those redneck militarists to support him this time around – he’s counting on it cause his every move has cost him with teh peaceable types.
I’m feeling that syria will be safe from outright & overt interference for alla 2012 and if the Syrian government can cut out the cancer without alienating the average just wanna get along Sunnis, 2013 will be a crank-down until the murdering bastards in washington, london, tel aviv, and berlin can come up with a new strategy for weakening iran.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 23 2012 0:39 utc | 31

The US has drones all over Syria doing this, why would Turkey risk a manned aircraft?
Posted by: Bill | Jun 22, 2012 2:51:20 PM | 23
what drones over syria?

Posted by: brian | Jun 23 2012 0:48 utc | 32

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 22, 2012 8:17:29 PM | 30
turkey also doesnt fly jets over syrian territory, nor does turkey hold enemies of syrian conferences

Posted by: brian | Jun 23 2012 0:50 utc | 33

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 22, 2012 10:34:20 AM | 1
turks should have been kicked in the face long ago. their harboring of terrorists to attack and destablize syria is an act of WAR. syria needs send similar inside turkey to blow up their country for democracy. appeasement has abetted turkey’s crimes against syria

Posted by: marshall | Jun 23 2012 1:51 utc | 34

like the US regime , the tunisian terrorists recruit from the slums…. of tunis for the war on syria
A trip to Tunis’s slums finds young Salafi Islamists who were at the vanguard of the Arab Spring, and are now set to take the fight to Syria to take down the ruling secularist regime.
http://www.just-international.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5548%3Athe-next-revolution-islamists-in-tunisia-take-their-jihad-to-syria&catid=45%3Arecent-articles&Itemid=123

Posted by: brian | Jun 23 2012 2:11 utc | 35

Mercenaries for Empire: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch
“Human rights” has become a tortured term. The most prominent names in the western human rights business behave, essentially, as “weapons in the imperial arsenal. Their value to the empire increased exponentially when Barack Obama adopted humanitarian intervention as a pillar of American war doctrine.” Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch spend much of their energies “advocating that the U.S. and its friends trample on the national sovereignty of weaker states – as if human rights can exist outside the framework of international law.”
“Who better than self-styled human rights activists to justify humanitarian wars?”
http://www.greanvillepost.com/2012/06/07/mercenaries-for-empire-amnesty-international-and-human-rights-watch

Posted by: brian | Jun 23 2012 5:04 utc | 36

>>> like the US regime , the tunisian terrorists recruit from the slums…. of tunis for the war on syria>>>
Brian, if you think Salafists are only in slums, it’s time you started reading up on what Salafism is about, made a visit to Qatar and Saudia and while you’re on the educational tour, stop in Syria and discover what it’s about too.

Posted by: www | Jun 23 2012 8:27 utc | 37

Turkey’s President Abdullah Gul said this morning: “Jet fighters sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders … when you consider their speed over the sea…. These are not ill-intentioned things but happen beyond control due to the jets’ speed.” Source: AFP.
On the topic of Syria, here’s a blast from the past: On 7 Nov 2011 the Russian Foreign Ministry said that “it is a natural duty for the Syrian authorities to guarantee security and rights of its citizens and the general stability”. http://www.sana.sy/eng/22/2011/11/07/380434.htm . I say that is the position that everybody with goodwill for Syria should be upholding today. It means that withdrawing Syrian troops from the population centers that are infiltrated by armed rebels, as Lavrov was yesterday asking Syria to do, is a very bad ask, and Syria shouldn’t agree to do it again. If Syria agrees to do it again I going to be very pissed off.

PS: Another blast from the past, Bashar Assad speaking in November 2011:
“The Western media have the wrong preconceptions on the situation and they never analyze deeply any event.”
“Who represents the opposition? I think the answer will become clear after the elections….. [The upcoming elections] will give the answer to who REALLY represents the people. Before the elections we can’t determine who has the people’s support and who doesn’t.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdCX8gmZLi0

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 23 2012 8:57 utc | 38

This is for Colm O’Toole only: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2012/06/iran-keeps-maliki-as-ruler–and.html

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 23 2012 8:57 utc | 39

>>> turks should have been kicked in the face long ago.>>>
Marshall #34, whatever became of the gratitude for Turkey for having stood up to Israel and sacrificed its people on the Marmara? Let’s not get carried away. Turkey, Saudia and neighbors had been asking Syria to take it easy on its people for a very long time. The money the Saudis may have spent or did not spend arming the rebels is still a very minute fraction of the amounts it has been pumping into Syria for decades. In 2002 after the broken dam destroyed the town of 10,000 of Zeyzoun, Syria, Saudi Prince al-Waleed rebuilt the whole town and its infrastructure.

Posted by: www | Jun 23 2012 8:59 utc | 40

www @37
read what i wrote….slums are great places to recruit pigeons

Posted by: brian | Jun 23 2012 9:53 utc | 41

‘Turkey’s President Abdullah Gul said this morning: “Jet fighters sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders … when you consider their speed over the sea…. These are not ill-intentioned things but happen beyond control due to the jets’ speed.” Source: AFP.’
trust us…we dont trust you(the syrian govt) but you can trust US.!

Posted by: brian | Jun 23 2012 9:54 utc | 42

I know what you wrote, Brian, I didn’t like the way you implied that those that don’t agree with Assad are slum people. Had you known a bit abut Salafis, you wouldn’t have bothered quoting that racist article.

Posted by: www | Jun 23 2012 9:58 utc | 43

hey brian, you consider yourself left-wing? what about the champions of the poor?

Posted by: somebody | Jun 23 2012 10:46 utc | 44

@42 The implications of that statement are obvious i.e. Turkey is throwing a bone to Syria so Assad can offer up an insincere apology.
As in:
Turkey: Awwwww, come on, sometimes jets just cut corners too sharply…..
Syria: Is that what happened here?
Turkey: Err, yeah, sure.
Syria: Oh, gosh!, sorry. If we’d know he was lost then we would’ve shot him down.
Turkey: Err, OK, so what did you think he was doing?
Syria: Well, we thought he was an Israeli warplane swooping in to drop bombs on us.
Turkey/Syria: Israel!!! Yuck!!! Pooey!!!!
Problem solved, diplomatic crisis averted.

Posted by: Johnboy | Jun 23 2012 11:16 utc | 45

@ Parviziyi
Haha that IS an interesting link Parviziyi. I seem to remember that in April I made the following bold claim:

On Iraq, I’m going to make a prediction. Maliki will be out in under 6 months. Apparently the Iranians are sick of cleaning up his messes, Muqtada Al Sadr and his supporters are plotting against him, Barzani and the Kurds want rid of him, and after the major Sunni parties called him a “dictator” he is now refusing to let any of them into the Presidential palace for meetings.

To which Parviziyi replied:

I’m going to predict that your prediction about Maliki will be wrong, because I don’t see any replacement, or any process for creating a replacement. We’ll see who’s prediction is right in six months.

Guess it is time for me to eat some humble pie and admit that my predicting the future skills need some work 😀 Did not see that Iran would continue to support him and certainly did not see that the US would pressure the Kurds to step back. Must be that Maliki has not yet outlived his usefulness.

Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jun 23 2012 11:26 utc | 46

On the porous border with Turkey, smugglers keep Syria’s uprising alive

Nervous men sit in silence as the local commander furiously tells the younger Free Syria Army fighter to ferry bags of weapons and medical supplies, piled throughout the entrance and back room, into two tired looking trucks parked out front.
Forty to 50 bags later, the reason for the hurried pace and frayed nerves appears. Five tall, well-dressed and very fit Arab men show up sporting expensive foreign weapons and little interest in the customary greetings and respect experienced throughout the ranks of the FSA. Italian shoes and immaculately pressed designer shirts stand in stark contrast to the odd mix of cheap designer knock-offs and sweat-stained fatigues worn by the fighters of the FSA.
The men move quickly, speak only to the FSA commander, known by his men as Zaza, and get the job of organising and loading of the supplies completed with military precision.
..

Posted by: b | Jun 23 2012 11:45 utc | 47

The Turks try to be funny: Turkey deputy PM says downed jet not a warplane: TV

(Reuters) – Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said on Saturday a jet that was shot down by Syria a day earlier was not a warplane but a reconnaissance aircraft, state television TRT reported.
It was not immediately clear where Arinc, who is one of four deputy prime ministers and also the government’s spokesman, was speaking. Turkish media reported the downed jet was an F-4 Phantom, a supersonic jet fighter which can also carry out reconnaissance operations.

So its not a “warplane”, just a recce Phantom RF-4, update some years ago by Israeli equipment. And it is of course normal that such non-warplane fly over foreign countries …

Posted by: b | Jun 23 2012 11:54 utc | 48

Syria has just done the West a favour – an RF-4 updated by the Israelis. While it no doubt doesn’t have the latest Israeli/US ECM technology, that it was shot down so easily should suggest to the Israelis that any intrusion into Iranian airspace could have the same or similar result. The increased risk of Israeli humiliation following an Israeli attack on Iran should be clear to all. Can Netanyahu afford it?

Posted by: blowback | Jun 23 2012 12:16 utc | 49

www #43. this is the second time i read post from you to brian telling him that he is
misinformed about salafism. Can you tell us why do you think he is misinformed
and what is the “truth” about them?

Posted by: erraticideas | Jun 23 2012 13:29 utc | 50

@blowback 49
The plane was shot down using Iranian technology. Sometimes simple technology is the most effective. Remember how the Yanks and Brits laughed at the Iraqi’s devices, they had the cheek to call it “Improvised”, now after countless refits and nearly $500B they have no effective solution to the humble IED.

Posted by: hans | Jun 23 2012 13:29 utc | 51

From the Atlantic Council, a NATO outlet and therefore “official”: Why NATO Won’t Go To War Over Syria Shooting Down Turkish Jet

the operative word that almost certainly disqualifies this incident from an Article 5 response is “attack.” Turkey was engaged in aggressive action along its border with Syria during a particularly tense situation and flew into Syrian airspace. While shooting down the plane was almost certainly an overreaction–the Assad government has said as much–it’s hardly an “attack.”

Posted by: b | Jun 23 2012 13:55 utc | 52

Too many people wildly speculate in this blog. According to reliable sources I trust eyewitnesses inside Turkey have said the plane was already flying low and erratically and possibly out of control when it descended over the border region inside Turkey. So the theories about defeat of electronic countermeasures [#49] etc. may not apply, the pilot was possibly trying to save the plane and may have strayed. And comparing the IED against *LAND* vehicles, where they have to go over a road, to some purported Iranian anti-aircraft technology whatever it may be seems far fetched. If Iran is so good, how come they’re still using even older planes than these rustbuckets, left over from Shah’s days? Asymmetry does not work so well in the air. Let’s face it we don’t know exactly what happened. My main concern, being Turkish, is that this does not escalate further. I think Turkey should pull back from getting too deeply into this, it won’t help anyone if a war starts, it most certainly won’t help Syria or Turkey. This event may actually turn out to be positive and I am happy the Turkish government is being a bit reserved, they are still trying to figure out the exact facts of what happened and *why* it happened, pilot / navigation error maybe. I know about avionics, the IFF theory can be tested from a much higher altitude, without endangering the pilots and the plane [re: #31]. My take on the plane(s) is low, fast and out of control, as they entered Syrian airspace, they were being tracked for a while and being low and vulnerable they were hit. Anyway the critical thing is what happens now, hopefully *nothing*. Erdogan is not stupid, I wouldn’t be surprised if back channel talks with Syria about diffusing the situation were taking place, though the fact that there are no more Turkish diplomats in Syria doesn’t help, so if any they would be via Iran.

Posted by: kodlu | Jun 23 2012 14:16 utc | 53

Sure, Kodlu, they are deescalating. And it is a good thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18562210
“Mr Gul said an investigation would look at whether the plane had been shot down in Turkish airspace, and also revealed that Ankara had been in contact with Damascus despite both countries declaring each other’s diplomats unwelcome earlier this year.
“We withdrew our envoy from Syria for security reasons. This does not mean that we have no contacts,” he explained.
Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc later said the jet had been on a reconnaissance mission, state television reported.
The BBC’s Jonathan Head in Istanbul reports that the Turkish government is treating the loss of the aircraft very seriously, but also with great caution.
Continue reading the main story
Turkish press reaction
Commentary by Ugur Ergan in Hurriyet
“[Turkey] has been stating that the [Syria] problem cannot be solved by military means. So, it would not be right to expect, on account of this incident, activity that could be defined as war between the two countries. Such a situation would mean getting into a war not only with Syria, but with Russia and China at the same time.”
Commentary by Ilter Turan in Vatan
“Even if it [the plane] violated Syrian airspace, this was not the right step for Syria, which has taken a hostile stance by any measure.”
Despite public anger over the suffering of civilians in Syria, Ankara has been very reluctant to consider military intervention, our correspondent says.
It will not rush into a military response to this incident either, he adds.
Diplomatic relations between Turkey and Syria have been downgraded to their lowest possible level without completely breaking them.
But the speed with which the coastguards of the two countries organized a joint search-and-rescue operation for the two missing crew members from the plane suggests there are still avenues of communication between their military forces, our correspondent adds.”
The route of the two pilots – as shown by the BBC map -is strange, even if you assume they were practising.
Also witnesses said there were two planes, one escaped.
From the reaction of both Gül and Erdogan, I assume they did not know about any flights being in danger of leading to escalation.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 23 2012 14:41 utc | 54

erracideas, I don’t remember the first time about Brian, but this time it was his little dig about Salafists being slum people that I found racist. Muslim fundamentalists in whatever flavor or degree you like to have them all strive to get back to the fundamentals of Islam, in the way they understand it, of course. I’m sure you don’t need a lecture on Salafism, but if you do, google will find you a more eloquent answer than you’d get from me. You’d also find out that many of the Arab royal families, are in good part and to varrying degrees Salafis or Wahabis. What’s with the “tell us”, are you a schoolteacher?

Posted by: www | Jun 23 2012 15:00 utc | 55

regarding wings; birds use both to fly right,and so do I,screw ideological blinders.

Posted by: dahoit | Jun 23 2012 15:04 utc | 56

If Syria were to play these games in reverse it would get a pilot to dogfight with Israeli pilots. If there is an incident it will show most of the World that Turkey is aligned with Israel and the U.S., the real impetus for these attacks. It will show that Turkey is the attack dog for Israel and the West.
Turkey is obviously being used by NATO and Israel to provoke Syria into full scale war. Turkey is allied with NATO so an attack on it is an attack on all (at the countries request). Syria evidently doesn’t have any allies. So attack dog Turkey has been trying to get Syria to respond by committing relatively small war crimes:
1. Crime of Aggression by sponsoring terrorists attacks on Syria.
2. Repeated threats of war, such as establishing a humanitarian corridor, etc., and moving troops and conducting planning sessions that illegally threaten war.
3. Illegal entry into air space and likely cat and mouse game with anti-aircraft defenses.
This does not mention the diplomatic efforts Turkey has engaged in to bring down the Syrian government.
Turkey has already attacked Syria and engaged in acts of war. Syria is completely entitled to counter attack Turkey to defend itself. Turkey is the attack dog that has now attached itself to Syria’s leg. It will not let go until it’s masters, Isreal and the West, come in to finish Syria off.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jun 23 2012 15:43 utc | 57

Wild speculation! It means using one’s imagination in the face of implausibilities: the fox says he has the welfare of the chickens in mind? Hmm, time for some “wild speculation”.

Posted by: ruralito | Jun 23 2012 15:47 utc | 58

“Too many people wildly speculate in this blog. According to reliable sources I trust eyewitnesses inside Turkey . . . So the theories about defeat of electronic countermeasures [#49] etc. may not apply . . . If Iran is so good, how come . . . This event may actually turn out to be positive and I am happy the Turkish government is being a bit reserved . . . .”
Posted by: kodlu
So let me get this straight, we shouldn’t speculate, even though that’s all we can do because we literally can’t trust the government or the media that control the fact. But we SHOULD blindly trust anonymous 2nd or 3rd hand sources that claim to have inside information? Especially when this anonymous ‘trusted’ source is pushing a story friendly to U.S./Israel/NATO?
All we can do is use logic. We know we’re being lied to and we do have to speculate, or use logic, to try to figure stuff out. We can even put probabilities on certain facts being true, etc.
And in this case, I feel comfortable assuming it’s more likely that Turkey intentionally violated Syrian airspace, most likely to play games with Syria’s air defense systems. And Syria shot it down. I think this is ~75% likely to be true (based on what I know now). Turkey’s non-denial denial is one main reason I assume this. Also, this aggressive behavior is consistent with Turkey’s recent past behavior.
Oh, in my list of crimes above my understanding is that Turkey may have been violating Syria waters as well recently. And I bet there have been more violations of airspace than this one. But I do think this is relatively common between hostile countries–but of course it seems like this action by Turkey’s plane may have gone beyond traditional aviator games and into hostile provocation.

Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jun 23 2012 16:06 utc | 59

Posted by: kodlu | Jun 23, 2012 10:16:22 AM | 53
Turkey is already in this full throttle and has been for the past year. Hosting a gov-in-exile against your next neighbor to overthrow their govt is an ACT OF WAR. and if syria were hosting “Friends of Turkey” planning sessions to train and arm death squads inside turkey? OMG!
syria has been attacked for a LONG time now and never offers any self defense response- this is the first time. they need to get on the OFFENSIVE for once, be proactive and put this covert invasion to an end- at the source. start arming and training their people to infiltrate TURKEY and take out the turk-sponsored death squads on turkey’s own terrain- not on syria’s. same goes for jordan too. is there no leadership or nationalist concern anymore in syria?

Posted by: file2 | Jun 23 2012 17:10 utc | 60

Turkey is following the NATO lead, diplomatically and materially; and it is funneling weapons into the hands of the rebels in Syria. The F-4 jet’s overflight, and low altitude, probably indicates a probing of Syrian defenses. There are games going on; and Gul’s flippant response on behalf of the Turkish government, exposes a government which disingenuously tries to deflect attention from the fact that it has chosen sides in this war. The guess that the plane’s mission was radar-mapping or some intelligence objective is not so far-fetched.
Turkish support, helping the transfer of weapons for the insurgents, has been going on for many weeks now; and official denials at this late date are pathetic. This overflight amounts to a provocation. And as far as Obama’s calculation, this incident or provocation is not inconsistent with seeking the convenient pretext for using military force on Syria; and I’m afraid the only variable in his calculus is when it happens.
What is so startling, and a tipoff that this war of aggression is on, is the fact that many of the foreign powers (and their spokesmen) are now so open about putting the rebel fighters on payrolls, and supplying them with weapons, with which they might destroy the Syrian state. What the world is witnessing is an unabashed crime against peace.

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 23 2012 17:25 utc | 61

www #55 . “What’s with the “tell us”, are you a schoolteacher?
it wasn’t my intention to sound like a schoolteacher. you challenged brian about his knowledge
about salafis so i thought you know about them, hence the “tell us”.
i asked because my knowledge is limited to a few books i read and all of them are “Western”
sources so they could be biased/bigoted
i will quote from one of them: The Siege of Mecca by Y. Trofimov
“In the year 1802, a terrifying force of al Saud’s camel-riding wahabi warriors
emerged from the desert outside the city of Karbala…
As they set Karbala’s mosques and academies ablaze, the Wahabi invaders
showed no mercy for the despised Shiites… Some four thousand
of Karbala’s citizens perished. The Bedouin invaders had a particular
predilection for disemboweling pregnant women and leaving their fetuses
atop bleeding corpses.”
page 14
the author could be biased so i was looking for a different point of view

Posted by: erraticideas | Jun 23 2012 17:36 utc | 62

part of the problem is that syria has not launched any self defense against all of this militarily or mediawise- neither has the world (except online). there have been NO consequences for any of the west’s illegality, going back to Iraq. the only semblance of a check on the unrestrained abuse of neo-colonial power was in 2006 with hezbollah’s revolt. i’m not saying syria could win a frontal agression- but ‘do unto others’ could be applied. the west sends in their troops- where is hezbollah and iran? are they waiting for syrian allies to be taken down one-by-one in a war of attrition? until it hits them individually when they are weak because they now stand alone against the western onslaught? and russia trying to have it both ways. they are in the firing line after the others. in fact they’re in it now. anyone note the ‘sudden outbreak of fires in siberia’? no its not SPECTRA

Posted by: file2 | Jun 23 2012 17:44 utc | 63

erraticideas, the Karbala you mentioned, is the city in Iraq that is the most holy for Shia Islam as it was at Karbala that the Shia Imam, Hussain and the remaining descendants of the Prophet, were massacred by Sunnis and this provoked the shism between the Sunni and the Shia. So Karbala has a very important significance to both groups. This explains the hate described in your piece about 1802. It also explains the hate that currently exists between the Shia of Iran and the Wahabi Sunnis of Saudi Arabia. Saudis and Iranians consider each other apostates and heretics. If you want to know what is behind the huge conflict between Iran and its friends like Syria with the Saudis and their friends like Qatar, Jordan, the UAE and Turkey, you have to begin by understanding the the religious conflict driving them both. If it sounds like both camps are still in the dark ages, they are.
I found the following link that explains the differences between Sunni Islam (what you can consider as a sort of orthodoxy of Islam) and the Wahabist fundamentalist movement. It’s obvious from the presentation that the site is an anti-Wahabi site, but prejudices aside, there are elements of truth in the description of both. A note of interest, the Wahabists destroyed most historical places of worship dating from the time of the Prophet, including the house the Prophet grew up in and so on; the reason behind this was that they did not want the people to worship these places as it’s a form of idolatry that the Wahabist are against, which isn’t totally wrong.
http://mailofislam.com/uploads/Difference_Between_Sunni_and_Wahabi.pdf

Posted by: www | Jun 23 2012 18:50 utc | 64

tends to get in the way of other people’s appreciation of cultural heritage though, www.
Problem with the religions believing in the same god : they tend to have a problem keeping their beliefs to themselves, but enforce it on others, which is a recipe for eternal warfare.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 23 2012 19:09 utc | 65

@64 – You are ignorant and factually wrong about the martyrdom of Imam Hussein. Sunnis never killed him in Karbala – he was killed by the armies of Yazid, and there was no Sunni-Shia Muslim during this time. This developed over time at a latter time – the principle disagreement between both sides was one of Imamate (Shia view) V consensus to rule (a view held by Sunnis). No Muslim has ever agreed to the murder of Hussein. The family of the Prophet is held in the highest of esteem and respect by all Sunnis (aswell as the Shia). Look, how nearly all of the Sunni Sufi mystical schools (Tariqa) chains come through Imam Ali (Hussein’s father).
The problem are the Wahabis who later metamorphosed in to Salafis who are a new phenomenon with Islam – who have a Protestant like reform agenda on all Muslims are they have been following the wrong Islam and allowed bida (innovation) take over Islam. Unfortunately they have oil money to back their propaganda. They are a major problem for all Muslims as they are violent and fanatical (the Ottomans fought the original Wahabis).
I recommend you read the works of Hamid Algar, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Imam Zaid Shakir and Hamza Yusuf to get a better understanding. A good start will be Seyyed Vali Nasr’s “Shite Islam”.

Posted by: Irshad | Jun 23 2012 20:23 utc | 66

I just find it strange that some people here on this forum are trying hard to spin this latest Erdogan stunt that blew in his face..If the idea was to generate this artificial incident in order to rally Turkish public support for a war with Syria, it has gone badly wrong. This was a Washington inspired stunt with Erdogan as the bagman.
In fact, Turkey had this coming..They’re openly hosting armed gangs on their soil and funding them and somehow they expect the Syrian government to throw flowers at them…Right after they helped NATO destroy Libya, they set out to destroy Syria too..They thought it’ll be as easy as toppling Qaddafi so Erdogan and Gul and their sidekick,Davutoglo, ramped up their threats against the Syrian government…They even went as far as telling Mr. Assad to step down. The Nerve!!!
No sane country will take this lying down..So what’s Turkey going to do now? I’ve heard Gul threaten AGAIN that Turkey will respond..WTF!!! So now Turkey will go to war because their Israeli refurbished fighter jet got shot down INSIDE Syrian territory? Is that some kinda sick twisted joke? Do they read their international laws backwards? Being part of NATO makes some member country’s leaders behave stupidly in hope that NATO will come to their aide when they f*ck up. Turkey should try flying into Greece airspace and see what happens.
Within a year, Turkey has managed successfully to make enemies out of all her neighbors..From Iran, Iraq, Greece, Syria and Israel..etc.One has to be a genius to attain such foreign policy success…
The ingredient necessary for the disintegration of Turkey exist today and is far worse than Syria’s..Erdogan’s become the present day Saddam.Except that he wears a suit while Saddam liked his military uniforms..Back in the day, the West and their allies pushed Saddam by feeding his ego to attack Iran – much like they’re doing to Erdogan..The rest is history.

Posted by: Zico | Jun 23 2012 21:08 utc | 67

Reminds me of the time US lost a drone in Iran, and Obama had the nerve to ask Iran to return it. Hah!

Posted by: Alexander | Jun 23 2012 21:21 utc | 68

>>> @64 – You are ignorant and factually wrong about the martyrdom of Imam Hussein. >>>
Sorry for the errors you mentioned, Irshad, we learn new things every day. I called the attackers of Hussain “Sunnis” to keep the story simple and I purposely did not bring the Kufa connection into it or that of Ubayd-Allah for the same reason. What was the religion of Yazid? You said that there weren’t any Sunnis or Shia at the time, I read that the word “Sunni” comes from something close to “ahl al-sunna” what does the word “Shia” mean? Thanks for the reading list but I’m not much into books. I didn’t get the part about the Wahabis metamorphosing into Salafis.

Posted by: www | Jun 23 2012 22:09 utc | 69

@69, Shia’ means party as in Party of Ali. It doesn’t matter if you don’t know much about theology of either sect. I don’t know much and I’m Muslim. What is essential to know is that the west is ***ALWAYS*** playing divide and conquer and the Sunni-Shia split is their current project. The Saudi royal family are their eager accomplices in the project. Any Muslim of any sect should be praying for their quick demise.

Posted by: Lysander | Jun 23 2012 22:28 utc | 70

Zico, somehow I find it suspicious that the New York Times and now the Guardian insist on all this “secret” activity taking place in Turkey. And somehow photographers suddenly get
embedded with rebels again …
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/22/saudi-arabia-syria-rebel-army
I am quite prepared to believe that the Turkish army acted on its own.
Everybody knows this can all blow up into a third world war and everybody plays a game of chicken, waiting for others to step back from the brink.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 23 2012 22:41 utc | 71

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Hv_8Qb1qw&feature=youtu.be
Turkey says its plane moved so fast it accidently entered Syrian airspace…yet the graphic shows the plane shooting out of turkeyu westward before veering south and heading straight for syrias coast! to me that looks like a provocation

Posted by: brian | Jun 24 2012 1:06 utc | 72

Disinformation against Syria, Qatar & KSA Fund Israeli Teams
June 23, 2012
The Palestinian Al-Manar daily revealed Saturday that staffs funded by Qatar and Saudi Arabia, with more than thirty experts of different American, European and Israeli nationalities, are carrying out media planning operations inside special studios in order to exaggerate the events in Syria and mislead international public opinion.
The daily said that an American expert in photography and media tricks arrived last week in New York after three months he spent traveling in Middle East countries between labs and studios of disinformation, which the paper described as the “media arm that works side by side with the intelligence and terrorist conspiracy apparatus against the Syrian people “.
The paper quoted the American expert as saying that “illustrations are produced using replicas and miniatures of certain neighborhoods in the capital Damascus, which were built with the help of photographs taken by very special advanced spy satellites using computerized programs of high level of accuracy and efficiency.”
“Seven strategic locations were built in Damascus, and more than 214 scenes on targeting those sites and taking control over them by armed opposition were filmed,” the newspaper added.
Al-Manar daily also quoted the expert as adding that “there are 32 experts working in those studios and labs in the countries surrounding Syria, including Lebanon and Turkey.”
“Intelligence teams determined the broadcasting hours,” he said.
It is worthy to mention that the disinformation Syria faces by the Arab and foreign satellite channels, have already been practiced with the Libyan regime before, when official websites published photos which coincided with some Arab satellite channels publishing photographs about the fall of Tripoli. The pictures showed fabrication of demonstrations scenes coming out in the Green City, and unfolded the manipulation during images’ installation.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=351728708233505&set=a.145623862177325.35853.143677389038639&type=1&theater

Posted by: brian | Jun 24 2012 1:20 utc | 73

Having chastised others on wild speculation, I apologise for introducing this to the mix of information. Use your favourite translator, original is in Greek, which I barely speak but can’t really read.
http://infognomonpolitics.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/blog-post_3373.html#more
It might illuminate what some called the “strange trajectory” of the RF-4 that perished. The claim is that there was a Greeek Cypriot National Guard exercise in Cyprus, and this plane was part of a Turkish Air Force package observing this exercise, on its return. Use your judgment about likelihoods of various explanations, and how they would change with this new data, if indeed accurate. I haven’t separately confirmed that a GCNG exercise was indeed taking place, so caveat emptor.

Posted by: kodlu | Jun 24 2012 1:23 utc | 74

FAIR has a piece of HOULA…seem to be straddling the line…
http://www.fair.org/blog/2012/06/14/was-houla-massacre-a-manufactured-atrocity
their weakness is to treat MSM reports serously

Posted by: brian | Jun 24 2012 3:08 utc | 75

Posted by: kodlu | Jun 23, 2012 9:23:41 PM | 74
if so, its veering 360 deg toward Syria is very suspicious

Posted by: brian | Jun 24 2012 3:10 utc | 76

i mean 180 deg

Posted by: brian | Jun 24 2012 3:10 utc | 77

SYRIA: Terrorism & Manipulation – a Revolution [1/3]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcEyibnRmUk
part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ifYFx5Ptk&feature=related

Posted by: brian | Jun 24 2012 5:49 utc | 78

the grand strategist and beneficiary of the ‘arab spring’ is spilling the real goal, which is being realized, syria brokenup into mini states, weakened irreparably
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iX08P1dZtqg

Posted by: file2 | Jun 24 2012 6:12 utc | 79

>>> What is essential to know is that the west is ***ALWAYS*** playing divide and conquer and the Sunni-Shia split is their current project.>>>
Lysander #70, it’s said that the Lebanese ecumenical Imam, Moussa al-Sadr that allegedly disappeared at the hands of Gaddafi in the 70s was on a mission to close the divide and bring the Lebanese civil war to an end. The missing Lebanese cleric comes from a long line of Shia imams and today’s Imam Moqtada al-Sadr of Iraq is a cousin. Gaddafi had been a backer of one of the 15 or 16 different factions fighting in Lebanon’s civil war and ending it was not in his interest. Today, you have the same thing happening in Syria with several countries backing and arming different factions in the uprising and not interested in having the Syrian conflict end. It’s said that the Syrian uprising is comprised of about 6 or 7 different factions having different agendas and being backed by different countries and at times fighting among themselves. The Houla massacre was probably committed by one of them. Players in the Lebanese civil war were American, British, French, Soviet, Saudi, Egyptian, Iranian, Syrian, and of course, Israeli. Some of these same players are at it again in Syria either backing the regime or backing one of the many different rebel groups. 200,000 died in the Lebanese civil war and this gives you an idea where the Syrian conflict is being taken by the regime and the others.

Posted by: www | Jun 24 2012 6:22 utc | 80

@ brian, #77, it seems to me that it may also be a standard observation pattern zigzagging back and forth [sometimes called a racetrack pattern] while listening. one flies 40km in one direction, reverses for another 40km essentially backtracking and so forth. but you may be right, in the sense that a clear intent to listen to signals from Syria was part of the activities of this plane.

Posted by: kodlu | Jun 24 2012 7:40 utc | 81

I am a supporter of the Assad government and like a great many other supporters I say it was a mistake for the government to have agreed to the Annan plan. The requirement to withdraw the army from civilian areas was the only provision in the Annan plan that made it a bad thing for Syria to sign up to. The plan has enabled the rebels to strengthen on the ground without getting attacked by the army.
The rest of this long post is motivated by the following statement by Sergey Lavrov about Syria on 21 Jun 2012:

“We deem it very important at this stage to make all the conflicting parties withdraw their armed units and military hardware from cities and other communities, but this must be done simultaneously…. It happened earlier that the Syrian government, complying with an Arab League plan, left some cities late last year, and monitors reported that this happened, and then the government entered these cities again because opposition units had occupied them in the absence of government forces. There is a need for a plan of simultaneous withdrawal on both sides for each populated area, under control of UN international monitors [sic? – how do “monitors” enforce “control”?], the number of which we are prepared to increase.” http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?pg=3&id=341628

I believe the Annan plan was essentially a Russian plan. Vladimir Putin said on 1 Mar 2012 about Syria:

“Instead of encouraging parties to the conflict, it’s necessary to force them to sit down for talks and begin political procedures and political reforms that would be acceptable for all participants in the conflict.” http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1139775–russia-s-putin-backs-away-from-syria-s-assad

Likewise Lavrov said on 21 Jun 2012:

“We strongly support a political dialogue and efforts to stop the violence. We suggest for this purpose that all external players should lean on the Syrian party on which they have influence and thus persuade them to withdraw from cities – both the government and opposition – and to sit down to dialogue. But there should be no prejudging from outside what the substance and result of this dialogue might be. It’s for the Syrians to decide.” http://www.rt.com/news/lavrov-syria-exclusive-394/ .

Likewise Lavrov said on 15 Jun 2012:

“What should be done if the showdown between the authorities and the opposition does assume the form of violent, armed confrontation? The answer seems obvious: external actors should do their best to stop the bloodshed and support a compromise involving all parties to the conflict.” http://www.mid.ru/bdomp/brp_4.nsf/0/D54B1EB2726D75F544257A1E003935A8 .

I strongly disagree with that. I strongly agree instead with Syria’s foreign minister Al-Moallem when he said on 24 Jan 2012:

“The security solution is a necessity, the necessity of which is clear with the presence of the so-called Free Syrian Army…. The security solution is a popular public demand.” http://www.sana.sy/eng/21/2012/01/24/396268.htm

Bashar Assad said the same in his speech on 10 Jan 2012 and again in his speech on 3 Jun 2012. He said the only thing that can bring peace and civility to Syria is to bring violent armed confrontation to the rebels and destroy the rebels with the force of arms:

Bashar Assad on 10 Jan 2012: “Our utmost priority now, which is unparalleled by any other priority, is the restoration of the security we have enjoyed for decades, and which has characterized our country, not only in the region but throughout the world. This will only happen by striking these murderous terrorists hard. There is no compromise with terrorism, no compromise with those who use arms to cause chaos and division…. We cannot fight terrorism without fighting chaos, for both of them are linked…. This terrorism cannot appear like that suddenly. There are stages which started from the beginning. There was small-size terrorism using small arms and in small areas. Then it grew to reach this stage and this level.” http://www.sana.sy/eng/21/2012/01/11/393338.htm

The armed rebellion (or terrorism, as Bashar prefers to call it) is now considerably worse than it was when Bashar said the above words in January. That’s due in no small part to the Annan plan, under which the the Syrian army has been severely constrained from suppressing the rebellion.
To my knowledge the Syrian government spokespeople have never explained to the Syrian public why they agreed to the Annan plan. At least they’ve never explained it to me. Reading between the lines of their verbiage, I think they agreed to the plan because (a) they wanted to keep themselves and the Russians on the same page, and the Russians were leaning on them to do the plan; (b) they figured the adverse effects for law and order would wear off in the longer term, i.e. they figured their position was strong enough in Syria that the chaos resulting from the withdrawal of the army from the streets would be reversible after the plan expired; and (c) the hundreds of UN observers under the plan could help the foreign powers to better see the objective reality and offset the falsehoods of the foreign news media outlets.
The UN observer mission has been in Syria for two months now, and has complied many observations and many reports — and has published almost nothing. The UN observers appear to sincerely want to be objective and impartial. But, at the top of the UN organization a decision is being made to not publish these reports. Robert Mood said on 15 Jun 2012:

“Would it be a good idea for the UN mission in Syria to share openly with the news media all our reports and all our findings? Well, for the time being that’s not my choice. That’s very simple. I have a reporting chain. I report to the headquarters in New York and Geneva. It’s their decision…. I think we probably could be more pro-active in information dissemination.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4W0Rq9-_dfc#t=63s

“This terrorism cannot appear like that suddenly. There was small-size terrorism using small arms and in small areas. Then it grew to reach this stage and this level.” We government supporters say Syria would have been better off with a “security solution” uncompromised by the Annan plan. Now there’s no use crying over spilt milk. But the government must not let the Russians lean on them again.
On 7 Nov 2011 the Russian Foreign Ministry said that “it is a natural duty for the Syrian authorities to guarantee security and rights of its citizens and the general stability”. http://www.sana.sy/eng/22/2011/11/07/380434.htm . That is the position that the Russians today and everybody else with goodwill for Syria ought to be upholding.
Bashar Assad said on 3 Jun 2012:

“To cure the homeland we must fight terrorism [i.e.: fight the violent rebellion]. Consequently, there is no tolerance and no leniency towards terrorism or those who support it. There is no tolerance except with those who have abandoned it. We will continue to confront it decisively…. We are always ready to start dialogue without conditions, except with the forces which are dealing with foreign powers and which have turned themselves into agents of these powers and those who have called for foreign intervention, or those who have directly engaged in supporting terrorism.” http://www.sana.sy/eng/21/2012/06/04/423234.htm

Bashar, to remain true to the above words and to prevent the rebellion from growing worse, must not consent again to any plan that leaves the troubled populated areas unsupervised by security forces that can fight armed rebels, i.e. unsupervised by the army. My core position is the same as that of Bashar and Walid Al-Moallem, which is that the violent rebellion can only be stopped by superior violence. It cannot be stopped by civilian processes. Apparently the Russians don’t agree with us. Consequently, Syria must break away from Russia and Lavrov.
On 22 Jun 2012 at a meeting in person with Syrian Foreign Minister Al-Moallem, Lavrov stressed that the Syrian parties must adhere to the Annan Plan, and Al-Moallem assured Lavrov that the Syrian government would adhere to the Annan Plan. http://twitter.com/mfa_russia . Alright, Syria agreed to the Plan and should keep its agreement. Under the agreement, the Plan expires on 20 Jul 2012.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jun 24 2012 8:50 utc | 82

>>> Disinformation against Syria, Qatar & KSA Fund Israeli Teams >>>
Of course, Palestinian Manar and Lebanese Manar would say that, Brian #73, do you have an unbiased source talking about this event? You make it sound as if Qatar and Saudia are funding Israeli teams, but the article doesn’t say that at all; it says that the teams comprised of Americans, Europeans and Israelis are being funded by Qatar and Saudia. You’re spreading disinformation yourself, Brian.

Posted by: www | Jun 24 2012 9:10 utc | 83

>>> the grand strategist and beneficiary of the ‘arab spring’ is spilling the real goal, which is being realized, syria brokenup into mini states, weakened irreparably.>>>
File2, even Haaretz is more honest than Debka File. That video is pure propaganda eventhough that the US is out to redraw the map of the whole area, including Israel’s which would be to Israel’s advantage.

Posted by: www | Jun 24 2012 9:19 utc | 84

>>> I am a supporter of the Assad government and like a great many other supporters I say it was a mistake for the government to have agreed to the Annan plan. >>>
The Annan Plan temporarily postponned the NATO bombing of Syria; not realizing that is liking drinking the kool-aid. When the regime starts getting serious about making meaningful changes, things will start improving. Until then it’s a cat and mouse game between the regime and the US working in NATO’s shadow. Turkey today has convened an emergency meeting of NATO. Yesterday’s announcement of a new Cabinet that included Bouthaina Chaaban and 2 members of the opposition is a move in the right direction by the regime. It’s not the Syrian presidency that has to be dismantled, it’s the rest of the apparatus that remained intact and that still nominates party favorites to government posts. The new constitution did not address that fact. I think President Assad should remain but major changes are needed.

Posted by: www | Jun 24 2012 9:46 utc | 85

www,
debkafiles is propaganda leaked by ex-mossad intel- that is why i posted it. was surprised to see that cabal of crackpots actually discussing what they do in fact hope for- balkanization of syria and in fact the entire region. small bits of ethnic groups easily controlled. was it here that someone said nato is after dismantling the states in region that have big traditional armies/ground forces that can defend sovereign territory? very interesting observation

Posted by: file2 | Jun 25 2012 4:54 utc | 86

changes are more cover story along the fake ‘democracy & human rights’ nonsense. justification to invade, thats all. the only change the west wants is assad OUT and an Israel-compliant regime in- which MB has already said they’d have diplomatic relations with the zionists.

Posted by: file2 | Jun 25 2012 5:03 utc | 87

www said: it says that the teams comprised of Americans, Europeans and Israelis are being funded by Qatar and Saudia.
–so what is the difference then www? rephrasing that saudis qatar is supporting is still, well- supporting!
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/24/247677/syria-arrests-40-germans-report/

Posted by: file2 | Jun 25 2012 5:09 utc | 88

File2, Brian understood it as teams of Israelis being funded by Qatar and SA. The article said Qatar and SA were funding teams of Americans, Europeans and Israelis. Looks like you didn’t get it either, that’s why I thought to clear up this little bit of disinformation. It’s not the supporting part that I disagreed with but with the composition of the teams.
Yes, the assholes in the opposition have already announced that they’d make peace with Israel without giving the Golan and the 400,000 homeless Syrian Golani refugees a second thought; not much different from the regime that hasn’t appeared to be overly concerned about them for over 40 years either. Some here would have you believe that the regime guys are all angels.

Posted by: www | Jun 25 2012 7:30 utc | 89

FWIW:
Syria general and two colonels ‘defect to Turkey’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18445370

Posted by: johnf | Jun 25 2012 9:35 utc | 90

Turkey deliberately violates Iraqi airspace: to bomb terrorists that attack turkey..does that mean Syria can bomb terrorists in Turkey?Will Turkey be sanctioned?
http://news.yahoo.com/turkish-jets-bomb-kurd-rebel-hideouts-north-iraq-003733396.html

Posted by: brian | Jun 25 2012 9:47 utc | 91

@80
now whhy ‘defect’ to turkey? are they turks?

Posted by: brian | Jun 25 2012 9:48 utc | 92

Conflicting news out of Turkey. Acouple of days back, Erdogan said on the news that the 2 aviators of the Phantom were in good health. Today, the Hurriet Daily News is reporting that the 2 are still missing; maybe the story was changed for NATO reasons, maybe the aviators are really missing:
“Two pairs of boots belonging to the missing pilots of a downed Turkish jet have been found, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said during a meeting with opposition leaders.
The prime minister showed the photos of the boots to opposition leaders during the meeting, daily Hürriyet reported.
There were no signs of any parachutes, and the pilots may not have used their ejection seats, according the information given by the prime minister.
Turkish naval and air forces have been attempting to locate Capt. Gökhan Ertan and Lt. Hüseyin Aksoy since their jet was hit by Syrian forces in international waters on June 22.
A vessel equipped with the technology necessary to conduct a more detailed search of the area has already been dispatched to the area to assist ongoing efforts by Turkish and Syrian coastguard boats.
June/25/2012
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/boots-of-missing-turkish-pilots-found-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=23972&NewsCatID=338

Posted by: www | Jun 25 2012 10:01 utc | 93

I had seen a radar tracking map for the downed F-4, and googling came up with this article from BelleNews. (That was not where I saw it initially.) Interestingly, the graphic is part of an article with a headline which seems to favor the Turkish PM’s story that the Syrians shot the plane down over international waters; however, the article is more balanced. What’s up with that, headline writer?
I’m not finding much clarity as whether the pilots were found or not. Latest on that seems to indicate they were, at best, separated from their boots. There was a report of two sets of Turkish air force boots having been found during the search….

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 25 2012 13:16 utc | 94

Info overload? I couldn’t find where I’d read about the boots — and, upon posting, saw it was in www’s post right above mine. Heh.

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 25 2012 13:17 utc | 95

brian @ 92 — Perhaps the defectors to Turkey were closer to Turkey than anywhere else they could defect? Of course, they could be getting pressure from the FSA, maybe told their familes would be harmed if they did not do as they were being encouraged to do? Pure speculation, but based on comment by an FSA spokesperson, as id’d in the article, saying that the pilot who defected to Jordan hab been encouraged to do so by the FSA.

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 25 2012 13:22 utc | 96

Von Braun
BREAKING NEWS!!! THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TURKISH-NATO F4
Turkish claim that their military jet was shot down in international air space after leaving Syrian territory is false.
– The aircraft was hit by air defense artillery, not by surface-to-air missile systems, and this weapon’s maximum range is just 1.2 kilometers.
– The wreckage was found in Syrian territorial waters, what also totally contradicts Turkish (read NATO) allegations.
There is strong evidence that the aircraft was a QF-4 Phantom, a << US DRONE MODEL >> variant.
Read all about it here:
http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=13226
So the reason they can’t find the pilots is because there was no pilots…
The QF-4 is a remotely controlled target. The QF-4 full-scale drone can be flown by remote control or with a safety pilot to monitor its performance. It is flown unmanned when missiles are fired at it, and only in specific over-water airspace authorized for unmanned flight.
The QF-4 is equipped to carry electronic and infrared countermeasures to fully evaluate fighters and weapons flown and fired against it.
Full-scale drone aircraft can be flown totally by computer using the Gulf Range Drone Control System, or controlled manually during takeoff and landing using a mobile control station located at the drone runway. As a safety precaution, a chase plane trails the drone during critical periods of flight.
So as I said before, there is strong evidence that this was an operation to evaluate Syrian air defence systems, and if downed it would be also useful as a false flag incident to push for airstrikes against Syria.
Source: RT NEWS and U.S. Airforce public websites

Posted by: brian | Jun 25 2012 13:33 utc | 97

Parviziyi @ 82 — Nice find on Gen. Mood pointing out that the reports by the UN observers are not being made public, that he has urged they be released, and others above him at the UN are saying no.
Which means the US is saying N0??

The UN observer mission has been in Syria for two months now, and has complied many observations and many reports — and has published almost nothing. The UN observers appear to sincerely want to be objective and impartial. But, at the top of the UN organization a decision is being made to not publish these reports. Robert Mood said on 15 Jun 2012:

“Would it be a good idea for the UN mission in Syria to share openly with the news media all our reports and all our findings? Well, for the time being that’s not my choice. That’s very simple. I have a reporting chain. I report to the headquarters in New York and Geneva. It’s their decision…. I think we probably could be more pro-active in information dissemination.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4W0Rq9-_dfc#t=63s

But if the UN had not withheld information, the Western MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) would follow the government lines on what could be published, as when Mood pointed out the “activists” were refusing to follow any standing down on violence. Xinhua provided the complete quote*; most reports in the West made it sound as if Mood were blaming the inability of the observers to safely observe on the Assad government, at best on both sides. But that’s not what Mood said”\:

In addition, there needs to be a commitment by both the government and the opposition to the observers’safety and security, as well as their freedom of movement, he said.
“The (Syrian) government has expressed that very clearly in the last couple of days. I’ve not seen the same clear statements ( from) the opposition yet,” Mood said.

*And Penney provided the Xinhua article and highlighted the quote.

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 25 2012 13:46 utc | 98

Parviziyi @ 82 — Nice find on Gen. Mood pointing out that the reports by the UN observers are not being made public, that he has urged they be released, and others above him at the UN are saying no.
nor were the earlier arab league reports…something to hide says the cause is not supportable

Posted by: brian | Jun 25 2012 14:32 utc | 99

brian #97

As a safety precaution, a chase plane trails the drone during critical periods of flight.

this fits with the TWO aircraft reportings, doesn’t it?

Posted by: claudio | Jun 25 2012 17:04 utc | 100