The Bullies Against Grass, Iran, And Syria
Three issues we follow here seem to come nearer to each other and may eventually join into a major conflagration.
The discussion in Germany about the Grass poem is raging on and on with many journalists, politicians and public commentators showing themselves as ridiculous idiots for attacking Grass personally instead of discussing the content of his poem. The normal people in the comment threads on various news sites, except for a few Hasbara preachers, don't buy it. They seem to be widely supportive for Grass.
The Israel government is adding to the ridiculousness of the issue by declaring Günter Grass persona non grata in Israel:
"Grass' poems are an attempt to guide the fire of hate toward the State of Israel and the Israeli people, and to advance the ideas of which he was a public partner in the past, when he wore the uniform of the SS," [Interior Minister Eli ]Yishai said.
"Repent!"
Grass was seventeen when he was drafted into a Waffen SS unit a few month before the end of the war. He had no choice in what uniform to wear. This stupid step by the racist Israeli government will increase endorsement of the Grass poem and support for his position.
With regard to Iran Israel recently invented a "sphere of immunity" scheme to increase its loudmouth threat of attacking Iran. The "sphere of immunity" is allegedly reached for Iran when it puts its nuclear program out of reach of Israeli bombs. This would, according to Israel, happen when nuclear work at the Iran's fortified Fordo site would start. The idiocy of this argument was immediately obvious as nuclear work under IAEA supervision was already taking place at Fordo when Israel came up with the new "sphere of immunity" buzzword.
But as usual the U.S. government follows the orders from Tel Aviv and is now demanding that Iran stop all work at Fordo and hand over its 20% enriched Uranium:
The Obama administration and its European allies plan to open new negotiations with Iran by demanding the immediate closing and ultimate dismantling of a recently completed nuclear facility deep under a mountain, according to American and European diplomats.
"Disarm so we can shoot you easier!"
Setting such conditions only shows that the Obama administration is not serious about negotiating with Iran.
In Syria the Kofi Annan negotiations about a ceasefire are not in a better state. While The Syrian government has committed to start a partial withdrawal of military forces from the cities starting at April 10, the rebel site has not agreed to anything at all. It likely hopes to continue its destruction of state infrastructure and ethnic cleansing when the Syrian troops pull back. The Syrian government again demanded "written guarantees" from the rebels and the countries who support them. Despite what the media write this demand is not new at all. Such a guarantee was requested from Kofi Annan from the very beginning as for example the Syrian ambassador to the UN Bashar Ja'afari explained (0:33, again at 0:44 again at 1:00 min) in a UN press conference several days ago.
The foreign paid rebels rejected to give any such guarantees:
Col. Riad Al-Asaad said Sunday that his group does not recognize President Bashar Assad's regime and for that reason they will not give guarantees.
...
He said the government should withdraw its forces to bases and remove checkpoints from streets.
"Disarm so we can shoot you easier!"
Neither will Grass repent, nor will the governments of Syria and Iran commit suicide. The bullies will have issue more than empty threats.
Posted by b on April 8, 2012 at 14:02 UTC | Permalink
somebody implies, @1, that germans are unrepentant nazis...
"Grass knew what he was tapping into very well..."
...and laments that the germans wont defend israel...
which begs the question, why should germans continue to defend a bad idea, and idea so bad that it has the potential to wreck jewishness?
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 8 2012 14:56 utc | 3
I think after #Iraq & #Libya where invasions were made only after the destruction, under the West's supervision, of arms program sold initially by West, no country is going to surrender its arms program, whatever it is.
#Iraq's chemical and biological facilities that were completely sold in pieces, mainly by US, sometimes on food and agricultural subsidies, during the Iraq/Iran war, were totally destructed after the invasion of Koweit under international supervision including US experts and the destruction was effective because Americans knew exactly what capacity Iraq had at the time. So when they went in in 2003 they knew that nothing was left. Same for Libya, they cajoled Gadhafi and Saif and made them think that they were welcome again into the fold only to terminate Libya's heavy arms program, including the nuclear, and make invasion easy...
So I guess the Zionists control the German media also?The inbred wacko crazy revenge filled media of nation destruction and hegemony fight back in unison against another truth teller,and as he,Grass, is not a part of the borg,ala Goldstone,hopefully he'll stand his ground and not recant,and follow his conscience,and continue to say the truth.
But the truth will continue to be called untrue by the serial liars,a pox on modern discourse.This crap is past its sell date.
Posted by: dahoit | Apr 8 2012 15:36 utc | 5
Israel now determines US and EU foreign policy. Netanyahu was demanding last month that:
Iran must stop enriching uranium, remove all military-grade enriched material from the country, and dismantle its Fordo nuclear research site.
Posted by: blowback | Apr 8 2012 16:31 utc | 6
French comments are not much better ...
what do you think political correctness is about? it is not natural ...
I remember strange discussion on race in the US elections ...
no the Israeli position is pretty untenable, there was a comment in a German paper on how come the Israeli president is not able to say "Islam is part of Israel" the same way the German ex-president did, it would solve a lot of problems ...
on top of being stuck with an untenable position they are stupid, too, Netanyahu first praising Israel as democratic country then barring Grass from entry where he did not want to enter in the first place, when the best thing would have been just to ignore Grass, too late now ...
would you trust a hysterical, stupid government with nuclear weapons ...?
Posted by: somebody | Apr 8 2012 16:50 utc | 7
ridiculous idiots
No. You're the idiot for a) wasting time translating gongorist prose into unreadable english, when you could've spent some time pouring over satellite maps of Syrian troop movements, or silently admiring the cranes in your nearby harbor; b)justifying the musings about Israel by an old asshole who, in a considerable stretch of ephebic enthusiasm, actively labored to exterminate jews; c) generally betraying a necessary intergenerational shame for the cosmic horrors your grandpa's generation inflicted on humanity.
Fuck you, b.
Posted by: slothrop | Apr 8 2012 16:53 utc | 8
Gilad Atzmon on Grass sans bullshit - as usual.
"Art of Resistance"
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/art-of-resistance-a-comment-on-gunter-grass.html#entry15730451
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 8 2012 17:08 utc | 9
You know, sloproph, you're not doing your side any favo(u)rs by talking out your ass. "gongorist"? That'll be in the manner of the "Tallest man in monglolia", will it?
www.thetallestman.com/ondorgongor.htm
Posted by: yes_but | Apr 8 2012 17:31 utc | 10
slothrop just sits at his computer frothing with rage, a purple vein bulging at the side of his forehead, gnashing and wailing with impotent fury because b keeps picking holes in the 'plot' of the story that slothrop's warmongering buddies (he's such a craven power-worshipper), are trying to peddle to the world. There was a time when he actually attempted to offer analysis (or what passes for it in slothropworld), but now he is reduced to hurling incoherent abuse, like a Statler or a Waldorf with Alzheimer's.
Posted by: The Raven | Apr 8 2012 17:38 utc | 11
oh wait, gongorism, qv. ie "characterized by flowery speech and archaic allusions." But, that's not Grass's piece at all. Sic stat sententia
Posted by: yes_but | Apr 8 2012 17:44 utc | 12
there's a very simple reply to all this talk of Grass' nazi past. and that is Israel's nazi past. and how the zionists and nazis got together to mutually plunder german jews, building up the war machine of the third reich, and turning the deserts green with german technology.
zionists are to israel what nazis are to germany. go ahead you sayanim, cut the Grass all you want. it will only serve to create a healthier lawn with fewer weeds. you may think you're exposing "anti-semites", but you only draw more attention to your hatred for those who are other.
Posted by: Proton Soup | Apr 8 2012 18:13 utc | 13
it does not matter, proton soup, when you cry wolf too often people start laughing when you do it ... it does not bite any more.
Israel's government is just helping German papers to keep Grass on the front page now, one more day (Jischai now demands the Nobel Prize should be taken from Grass) and people will be back to work on Tuesday and start to notice ...
there are a lot of German politicians who have not said anything yet (most), and quite a few cultural figures, too
Grass must have topped any writers' ability to stay in the news by now
Posted by: somebody | Apr 8 2012 18:34 utc | 14
Israel is a postage stamp country, a dot on the map, few resources, little productive capacities, too much internal strife for reasonable investment, etc. It is negligible and boring in a way, dull and predictable.
These characteristics render it vulnerable and manipulable, therefore more aggressive, it must fight to survive.
It lives off its aggro, victim status, paranoia, self-defense, that is its life-line, responsible for its access to and production of arms, its huge subsidies from abroad, and in a large measure, its ersatz economic development.
It must perpetually agitate, posture, disturb, vociferate, ‘credibly’ threaten, thru its sanctioned power and special dispensations (nukes ... etc.)
That is its allowed, nay ascribed, function.
Mad-dog forward scout, stellar special ‘n holy, given a free pass by the ‘Int’l community’, read USuk first, but with plenty of support from Canada, the EU (etc.), all - including KSA - are subservient to the hegemon and care not a fig, or even disapprove of or hate Israel, on various counts, but cannot reject or deny its role, they must accept.
As long as Israel rabidly refuses ‘peace’ with ‘Arabs’ and is nutso about other countries (e.g. Iran) that hold resources and that the W seeks to dominate and re-colonize, or at any rate, control, it is so to speak, good to go.
The badge of honor is showing it can oppress, manipulate and kill on its home ground. Walls - zones, movement, etc. - deadly checkpoints - arbitrary detention, imprisonment - judicial mayhem - military omnipresent in daily life - ethnic cleansing - etc.; furnishing, moreover, a model that can be copied in the W...
Imagine if Bibi and Ahmadinejad sat down to negotiate in a sort of free and open, regional, forum.
Bibi would get some access to Iran’s riches and markets; Ahma. would get huge kudos, and obtain a better situation for Palestinians and Arabs, plus a fair, albeit minor trading partner, market, etc. A win-win situation, not difficult to imagine.
Scientific collaboration! Sports! TV shows! ‘n more..Travel for all!
The US, however, will never allow that. Never.
Israel does not have the capability to turn away, to change direction, it’s hands are empty, its internal politics and economy a gruesome mess, its elites and educated hot-foot it out, only keep ties to exploit, etc. Add in: Who actually controls Israel is rather opaque, kept under wraps.
Israel as a coerced yet willing, collaborating victim is not a common pov, yet deserves consideration. I’m not supporting Israeli or Zionist violent, racist, policy in any way, hope that is clear.
Posted by: Noirette | Apr 8 2012 19:00 utc | 15
Last night, having an Easter dinner with my girlfriend, I was slapped in the face by reality. 60 years old am I. My GF, 58. Joining us for dinner were her two daughters, early and mid twenties, and their like aged boyfriends, one of which brought a male friend. Also at the table was a reknown actor's son, in his thirties, who works in the movie industry doing setwork.
Bottom line, the depth of the ignorance, concerning world events, our nation's ongoing policies, and the positions of our so-called "Presidential candidates" was terrifying and eye opening. The dinner conversation was shallow, mostly having to do with celebrity worship and media entertainment news. NONE of them were aware of Fukushima, and two of them thought that we were no longer engaged militarily in Iraq. Only one of them was not of the belief that Iran CURRENTLY POSSESSES nuclear weaponry.
We are in deep shit. The liars and the scumbags are winning, and they are doing so by NURTURING the ignorance of an entire generation.
Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Apr 8 2012 20:38 utc | 16
fun for German speakers
this interviewer was in a hot seat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2VJIOR8I3s&feature=related
Posted by: somebody | Apr 8 2012 21:10 utc | 17
Somebody "it does not matter, proton soup, when you cry wolf too often people start laughing when you do it ... it does not bite any more."
The thing many people forget about this old "The Boy who Cried Wolf" story is that at the end of the story, when no one believes the boy and they all stand around congratualting themsleves on how clever they were not to get fooled again this time by this kid . . . . . . . the thing people forget is . . that there is still a Wolf
He hasn't gone away you know
Posted by: Hu Bris | Apr 8 2012 23:08 utc | 18
you're right, the wolf hasnt gone away...
and when people try to defend themselves against the wolf, the global israel lobby starts screeching about antisemitism at the top of its wolfish lungs.
if you guys dont like being called wolves, quit acting like wolves.
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 8 2012 23:29 utc | 19
i got to admit that, so far, this cycle of the jews' saga is progressing normally... the exploitation of the holocaust has given them the juice, they've gone way over the top in exploiting the juice, the backlash is starting, and it's just a matter of time until the jews have a new wave of persectuion to whine about.
that's just how it works.
israel is the wildcard... are israelis, the pure, uncoorrupted strain of jewishness, willing to use their samsdon option? ...will they try to convert their regional samson option to a global samson option? ...do rational jews have enough clout to overhaul the philosophy that got them into this pickle?
who knows?
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 8 2012 23:40 utc | 20
israelis, the pure, uncoorrupted strain of jewishness
pllllease.
Posted by: annie | Apr 9 2012 4:32 utc | 21
sometimes you gotta wonder, dont you, annie?
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 9 2012 5:38 utc | 22
for German speakers
this is the core of the storm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qp6mAjt9os&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2024498959B130C9
and yes some people are stil allowed to smoke in German television
the old guard is back !!!!!!!!
Posted by: somebody | Apr 9 2012 5:54 utc | 23
somebody says, @23...
"the old guard is back !!!!!!!!"
well, you gotta expect old guard nazis to try to skate in under cover of legitimate beefs about israel, dont you?
it was freaking inevitable, and it can be exploited by the israeli propaganda machine... so maybe it wasnt only expected, maybe it's encouraged.
such thing are not unheard of here in the US, either.
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 9 2012 6:16 utc | 24
but then again, maybe there are no legitimate beefs against israel... not if "might makes right" becomes the only law we live by...
so, following that train of logic, it's okay for israelis to ethnic cleanse palestinians because hitler ethnic cleansed jews....
if it's okay for israelis to ethnic cleanse palestinians, then it's okay for somebody else to ethinic cleanse israelis.
it's afoolproof moral system if you think can maintain your military, political and media supremacy...
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 9 2012 6:24 utc | 25
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2165626245072381061&hl=en
Posted by: m_s | Apr 9 2012 7:37 utc | 26
it is like watching a football match, Grass made it into the Monday pages
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,826354,00.html
antisemitism did not work
now they think it actually is a poem and, hey, it should be restricted to the culture pages ...
too late ...
nobody seems to be capable to just shut up :-))
Posted by: somebody | Apr 9 2012 7:59 utc | 27
retreatingbladestall, you forget that German Social Democrat's pedigree is spotless as they, too, went to concentration camps ...
Posted by: somebody | Apr 9 2012 8:01 utc | 28
seeing as how i dont speak german so i didnt watch the video, and dont know social democrats from muscovy ducks... i dont know...
to us american hillbilies, though, your use of the phrase "old guard", in the context of the rest of your posts on this subject, seems to imply you're still afraid of nazis.
nazis will surely try to exploit the situation, then they in turn can be exploited by your zionist media.
meanwhile, the younger people are probably laughing their asses off at the whole dog and pony show... it's likely they know what's going on, but have lots better things to do than get caught up in more zionist bullshit.
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 9 2012 8:24 utc | 29
by the way the tin drum really is a master piece, if you don't like reading books
watch the film
http://www.filmcritic.com/reviews/1979/the-tin-drum/
Posted by: somebody | Apr 9 2012 8:26 utc | 30
i read first read the tin drum in the early sixties, it must have been... maybe i read it aagain a couple times, or at least started it.
the only line i remember, is "the dust of a drummers day", and a chapter title that weirded me out when i first read it, "the examination of feces", or something like that.
it's not that i dont like reading books... it's just that i probably wont be able to read in another few months.
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 9 2012 8:30 utc | 31
well, you us hillbillies, you do not seem to know the old guard of your own country ...
the guy next to Helmut Schmidt is Fritz Stern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Stern
Posted by: somebody | Apr 9 2012 8:32 utc | 32
i'll have to take your word for it, since i didnt watch the video because i dont speak german.
how long do you plan to keep this up?
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 9 2012 8:36 utc | 33
@23 - if you have to resort to ex-Nazis (is there such a thing?) to carry the message of Israeli abuses you've already lost. It plays right into the Zionist's hands. Seriously you're too easy for the Zionists. It's like taking candy from a baby. You might as well be working for them. Hey wait a minute.
Posted by: Sultanist | Apr 9 2012 10:22 utc | 34
The more Israel tries to make Iran or Grass an issue, the more it makes itself an issue too. Grass could not have hoped for better publicity. More people will read his poem, more people will start questioning this "anti-semitism". On Iran, saying the Israeli lobby infulences US policy was once considered crazy talk. Now it is taken for granted, and people ask how much and why.
Posted by: hass | Apr 9 2012 13:03 utc | 36
"you're right, the wolf hasnt gone away...
and when people try to defend themselves against the wolf, the global israel lobby starts screeching about antisemitism at the top of its wolfish lungs.
if you guys dont like being called wolves, quit acting like wolves.~"
You didn't really 'get' what my Wolf comment was about, did ye?
Posted by: Hu Bris | Apr 9 2012 13:08 utc | 37
@36 - I disagree. More people will see that those who criticize Israel are Nazis. I don't believe that but the public at large will. The public at large will get the message that Germans are still Nazis and that they are trying the annihilate the Jews again. Find another messenger. Surely that can't be too difficult if the concern is truly righteous.
Posted by: Sultanist | Apr 9 2012 13:46 utc | 38
does anyone in germany, or anyone anywhere, take nazis seriously anymore? ...the closest approximation to nazis today seems to be neocons and israelis.
*shrug*
i guess maybe you could manufacture some nazis, false flags and media and whatnot, to make a threat of them... i mean, it seems to have worked to a certain extent with al qaeda.
the thing of it is, we dont need nazis to point out how haywire israeli america is... that haywireness is quite evident, thank you, without nazi guidance.
how will it turn out? ...well, i dont think anyone really knows, but it's a fact that israel is dependent on america for protection, and america is dependent on cheap oil... and we got a little window here before the oil runs out, and in that window of time,zionists think they can secure israel against the day they no longer are protected by america.
it's gonna be just like global warming denial... in a few decades, it'll be too hot to deny global warming and sea level rise... in a few years, it's very likely that global oil production will start declining to the point that people cant afford to live the way they've been living.
doesnt seem likely that any amount of bullshit's gonna cover up the connection between the "war on terror" and peak oil, or the connection between israel's vulnerability and 9/11, or the connection between all that, israel and israeli desperation.
meanwhile, the israelis are giving us an example of what it would be like to live under israeli "benevolent global hegemony" or "tikkun olam" or whatever you want to call it.
it always comes down to the same old thing: israel was a bad idea, for jews and everybody else who'd benefit from cooperating with each other as they dealt with peak oil and global warming.
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 9 2012 14:30 utc | 39
do we need to go into the philosophical haywireness that's guiding the neocons and israelis?
it's a pretty pathetic goddamned philosophy that enables you to rationalize might makes right, abandon your morals, kill people willy-nilly and discredit yourself to the point that your people are persecuted after you've loaded the gold into the gulfstream and flitted off to some tropical paradise.
your people stay behind and take it in the shorts, but that's okay, because that's exactly what they erte expecting.
it's a hell of a philosophy, aint it?
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 9 2012 14:49 utc | 40
It's hard to find a story in the US media on Grass that doesn't use the word "Nazi" at least 4 or 5 times. However, as always thank goodness for Lieberman, who by banning Grass from Israel (was he trying to go Israel?) managed to reshape the story from "Nazi insults Israel" to "Israel bans another critic." Go Avigdor!
Posted by: Bill | Apr 9 2012 15:13 utc | 41
To put it another way - there's a hell of a lot of money out there which isn't 'Jewish' )a lot more than is) - so how does that fit in your particular paradigm
Posted by: Hu Bris | Apr 9 2012 15:28 utc | 43
b from the top post:
But as usual the U.S. government follows the orders from Tel Aviv
Because it likes to do that, it is pursuing a clear strategy in its own favor. Because it pretends coercion where none really exists.
The US would pay no attention to calls and claims from Burundi, Ethiopia, Belgium, Andorra, Portugal...
Israel and the US (formerly UK, then USuk, etc.) are joined at the hip in a peculiar symbiosis. Israel is a US rogue state.
The Walt and Mearsheimer piece made public a mild version of the insidious power of the Israel lobby, got ppl all riled up, pro and contra.
And reinforced the myth of Israel as powerful, on its own. Evil and connected ppl, money thrown about, an old story.
Any questioning of Israel’s status and methods of course creates a shit storm because dissing Israel in any shape or form is to be condemned as contrary to US foreign policy.
The US is not obeying Tel Aviv, the US is doing what it wants to do and using excuses.
Handing over this or that, inspections of this or that, etc. are all fig leaf mantras, Iran could have peaceful use of nuclear technology, no need to go into all that now, it is beside the point, as Iran is a target not because of it’s non-existent nuclear tech, but because it holds tremendous resources, oil and gas.
Btw, why does Israel hate Iran? Persians aren’t even Arabs and there are none in Israel. Iran has not attacked anyone for a long time, and never Israel.
German guilt is obscuring the discussion.
The year is 2012.
Posted by: Noirette | Apr 9 2012 16:44 utc | 44
Hu Bris, the wolf isn't what you think it is, either. one must remember that the zionists sold out the jews and delivered millions to their deaths. don't be surprised when it happens again.
Posted by: Proton Soup | Apr 9 2012 16:51 utc | 45
All due respect Proton, but you don't really know "what [I] think it is, either."
I'm quite aware of the history of Political Zionism, and quite aware that Zionists form part of what we might like to call "The Wolf" - but my point is that they form only one part. Not the Whole - not even close to the Whole
Posted by: Hu Bris | Apr 9 2012 17:32 utc | 46
in other words - If you're really HAVE to go Witch hunting
Then IMHO
you are at the very least obliged to provide a plausible witch
Posted by: Hu Bris | Apr 9 2012 17:36 utc | 47
Making an 84 year old into a Nazi by virtue of the fact that he was drafted as a 17 year old to then dismiss anything he says as nothing more than Nazism is just too ridiculous to take seriously, and harms the proIsraelis more than anything else, sorry. FYI the UNSC passed a resolution calling on Israel to put its nuclear program under intl supervision too, just as Grass wants in his poem is the UNSC also Nazi?
Posted by: hass | Apr 9 2012 17:53 utc | 48
alrighty then, what is the wolf, Hu Bris?
what do you think it is?
Posted by: Proton Soup | Apr 9 2012 18:06 utc | 49
hey, there is a new English translation, and it is excellent
Posted by: somebody | Apr 9 2012 19:36 utc | 50
Is it not possible to discuss issues like these without this lot of stupid nazis crawling out of their holes?
I will just repeat for everybody to read and understand:
Although I would agree with Grass politically on this issue, he should anyway stop from discussing anything, with his special past of HIDING his Waffen-SS membership for over 60 years. Waffen-SS was the armed wing of the fascist party and was to become an elite police force once the war was won. During the war they were already this principal police force all over in occupied countries. And at the post-war Nuremberg Trials the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organization due to its essential connection to the party and involvement in all known war crimes, which doesn't exempt the role of normal Wehrmacht units also involved in the crimes.
After WWII Grass was building up a reputation of an author of the new Germany, rightfully critizising the old nazi gang who still was in charge here; but he was not responding to the overwhelming call of the youth and other movements that the war generation takes up personal responsibility and not just puts all the blame on Hitler and his entourage.
And finally read again this part of an interview with Tom Segev in Haaretz, Aug. 26., 2011 (Grass at the age of 83):
"Of eight million German soldiers who were captured by the Russians, perhaps two million survived and all the rest were liquidated. There were about 14 million refugees in Germany; half the country went directly from Nazi tyranny to communist tyranny. I am not saying this to diminish the gravity of the crime against the Jews, but the Holocaust was not the only crime. We bear responsibility for the Nazis' crimes. But the crimes inflicted serious disasters on the Germans and thus they became victims."
The figures are totally wrong: In Soviet captivity, about one million Wehrmacht soldiers died, historians say, and they were also not "liquidated". How Grass comes to his six million number is the secret of his subconsciousness. What the Literature nobel laureate said reads, in any case, as classic myths from the neo-Nazi and extreme right-wing corner - the poor german becoming a victim of bolsheviks and jews.
These stupid excuses, lies, inadequate analogies etc. of the german war generation really piss me off. How does it come GG speak about 6 millions Wehrmacht soldiers being "liquidated" by soviet red army in captivity??? It's a subconscious subtext: 6 millions jews murdered in holocaust - we, the germans, also mourn about 6 millions victims. It's the life long "Lebenslüge" of this generation, based on untrue facts and wishful thinking. In the very back of GG consciousness there is obviously left all the ideological waste of his youth years as you can see from his statement about the 6 million Wehrmacht soldiers being "liquidated" - that has to be rejected totally and disqualifies him for any other statement. You need a different messenger for any statement critisizing Israels aggression towards Iran.
And for all of you here in the blog defending and exculpating Grass from his nazi shit - if you need such a character for your argument it may not be very strong (not to mention the assholes here who are just out for personal insults and crappy anit-semite BS)
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2012 19:53 utc | 51
thomas, he was 17, had gone to Nazi schools since the age of 6, and was drafted, it was 1944 with the Red Army approaching, are you sure what you would have done in his shoes? What alternative would you have had?
Even so, even if free choice had been involved, what does the author's personal decisions say about the tin drum, cat and mouse and dog years? Nothing apart from what is written in the text. What does the fact that he went to Nazi schools and joined the Waffen SS for a brief period say about the poem that is discussed all over the world now? That the "belastet" he claims for himself is real? Does that say anything about the truth of the text?
How should a person be judged - for the first 18 years of his youth - or for the 62 after that. and why do you think has a simple short text he wrote been in the news now for a week and there is not end in sight?
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/09/rushdie-among-those-who-respond-to-israels-ban-of-gunter-grass/
Posted by: somebody | Apr 9 2012 21:43 utc | 52
"(not to mention the assholes here who are just out for personal insults and crappy anit-semite BS)"
What about the assholes that seek any opportunity to scream 'Nazi' at any German daring to criticise Israel?
Posted by: Hu Bris | Apr 10 2012 3:30 utc | 53
I eagerly await rgiap's avuncularly mechanical denouncement of "thomas."
Posted by: slothrop | Apr 10 2012 3:34 utc | 54
so this is now a discussion about freedom of speech, and it is the Israeli writers association of all people ...
The Hebrew Writers Association in Israel on Monday denounced a controversial poem by Nobel Literature laureate Guenter Grass in which he criticizes Israel for threatening to attack Iran. The writers association said it would ask International PEN, a worldwide body of writers, to "publicly distance itself from Grass' remarks and to come out against all expressions of delegitimization against Israel and the Jewish people."
Germany’s main opposition party — the center-left Social Democrats, whom Grass has often backed in election campaigns — said the Israeli travel ban was excessive.
“A democratic and pluralistic country such as Israel can also bear controversial opinions, especially because Guenter Grass’ views are not anti-Semitic,” the party’s top lawmaker on foreign policy, Rolf Muetzenich, told the daily Handelsblatt. He called the Israeli decision “a sign of hopelessness.”
Posted by: somebody | Apr 10 2012 4:23 utc | 55
Describing Gunter Grass as a "Nazi" is beyond stupid and beneath contempt. No wonder it’s the main tool used now by Hasbarabots in their global attempts to discredit his unequivocal message to his fellow Germans.
Hasbarabots, in my experience, are mostly malleable dullards, stuffed to the brim with hate and hubris laid on a thin bed of willful ignorance by their manipulators. How else could they attack a literary giant of a man whose reputation is unassailable when that literary giant of a man has been able to slay their poisonous delusion with only a single page of poetry written in his 80's?
They're making themselves look ridiculous and the cause they blindly support look bat crap crazy.
Posted by: arthurdecco | Apr 10 2012 5:30 utc | 56
The intelligent responses to this poem have been an encouraging sign. The feeble efforts to slander the messenger have gathered little sympathy.
they overdid it. they might have succeeded if not so many people actually had read Grass novels, and if they had managed to shut up in time.
it is clear now that the taboo is broken, it is clear that the discussion now will proceed openly
http://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/grass-nicht-vorschnell-abschreiben-1811419.html
Posted by: somebody | Apr 10 2012 7:03 utc | 58
Actually, this rabbit hole is much more interesting than anything Grass has to say. A 169 year old chemical company owned primarily by an old, extremely wealthy German bloodline that has Jewish roots. It's difficult to separate out those Jewish roots. Just ask Hitler. Maybe that's at the core of it. Germans are self-hating Jews. Most of them have at least a little Jew in them and the Holocaust was an act of immolation, self-denial and self-hatred. How do you administer therapy to an entire nation in denial about who and what it is?
Posted by: Sultanist | Apr 10 2012 11:00 utc | 59
slops:
'Fuck you, b'
thats the only level he can rise to.
The Atzmon post is as good as Bs post
Posted by: brian | Apr 10 2012 12:52 utc | 60
Grass tells the truth...israel slowly reveals its real worm eaten face....
aint freedom of speech and thought grand!...pity israel and slops hate these two.
Posted by: brian | Apr 10 2012 12:54 utc | 61
nazis ended 1945..barring the use of nazis by the US and others later..
but zionist israel is the new nazism, with its crushing of arabs and free speech and efforts to wage nuclear war....a nation of mad men given the atom bomb: thats what israel has become
Posted by: brian | Apr 10 2012 12:56 utc | 62
yes, Grass made it into the Economist now :-))
though the summing up of the Economist is pretty one sided -
there is Alfred Grosser now on defense
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/alfred-grosser-ueber-kritik-an-israel-grass-hat-etwas-vernuenftiges-gesagt-1.1329287
not to forget every papers internet comment sections ...
Posted by: somebody | Apr 10 2012 18:59 utc | 63
hey the Grauniad corrected the translation, does not care enough however to link to the complete corrected poem ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2012/apr/10/corrections-and-clarifications?newsfeed=true
for anyone who cares - the best English translation is here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/translation-of-controversial-guenter-grass-poem-what-must-be-said/2012/04/08/gIQAI2YD4S_story.html
Posted by: somebody | Apr 10 2012 20:50 utc | 64
Außer in der Zeitung Haaretz, die sich auch fragt: Ist unsere Regierung verrückt geworden?Verruckt indeed.
Posted by: Alexander | Apr 10 2012 23:29 utc | 65
hey Grass is doubling down :-))
Thrice I was forbidden to enter a country, the GDR ... Birma ... this time Israel ... the Israeli interior minister will not be able to prevent my fond memories ... prevent me from feeling close ... The GDR does not exist any more, as uncontrolled nuclear power the Israeli government feels it has independent power and is inaccessible for admonishment, only Birma gives reason for a little hope ... :-))
Dreimal wurde mir die Einreise in ein Land verboten. Die Deutsche Demokratische Republik, kurz DDR genannt, machte auf Geheiß des Ministers für Staatssicherheit, namens Mielke, den Anfang. Und er ist es gewesen, der Jahre später das Verbot zurücknahm, jedoch für die zu erwartenden Einreisen der "als zersetzendes Element" eingestuften Person verstärkte Observierung angeordnet hat.
Als meine Frau und ich im Jahr 1986 mehrere Monate lang in der westbengalischen Hauptstadt Calcutta lebten, wurde uns mit der Begründung "unerwünscht" die Einreise nach Birma verweigert. In beiden Fällen wurde die in Diktaturen übliche Praxis vollzogen.
Jetzt ist es der Innenminister einer Demokratie, des Staates Israel, der mich mit einem Einreiseverbot bestraft und dessen Begründung für die von ihm verhängte Zwangsmaßnahme - dem Tonfall nach - an das Verdikt des Ministers Mielke erinnert. Dennoch wird er mich nicht daran hindern können, meine mir hilfreichen Erinnerungen an mehrere Reisen nach Israel wachzuhalten.
Immer noch ist mir die Stille der Judäischen Wüste gegenwärtig. Immer noch sehe ich mich dem Land Israel unkündbar verbunden. Immer noch befinde ich mich im Gespräch mit Erwin Lichtenstein, dem letzten Syndikus der jüdischen Gemeinde meiner Heimatstadt Danzig. Und immer noch sind mir die endlos nächtlichen Dispute mit Freunden im Ohr. Sie stritten sich (nach siegreichem Krieg) über die Zukunft ihres Landes als Besatzungsmacht, waren aber auch voller Sorge, die sich vierzig Jahre später zu einer bedrohlichen Gefahr ausgewachsen hat.
Die DDR gibt es nicht mehr. Aber als Atommacht von unkontrolliertem Ausmaß begreift sich die israelische Regierung als eigenmächtig und ist bislang keiner Ermahnung zugänglich. - Allein Birma lässt kleine Hoffnung keimen.
Posted by: somebody | Apr 11 2012 17:16 utc | 66
somebody posts eight million german words, calculated to enrage ignorant americans who dont know their asses from a hole in the gound, even in english.
wll, hell
Posted by: retreatingbladestall | Apr 11 2012 17:29 utc | 67
Angry Arab fans will enjoy his April 10 post. He uses Tom Segev's Haaretz anti-Grass rant to point out that Zion already has "wiped another country off the map" - Palestine.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 11 2012 18:30 utc | 68
yeah, once you - to quote Ahmadinejad - "apply logic" defenders of Israel have a problem.
This is from the Grauniad
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/08/israel-gunter-grass-artistic-licence
"My late husband, the German poet Erich Fried, was a colleague of Grass. In 1974 Erich published a whole book of poems about the Arab-Israeli conflict entitled Höre Israel, which has been republished recently by Melzer Verlag.
Grass's admission that he served in the Waffen SS in his teens serves as ready ammunition for the Zionists to use against him; for Erich it was the fact of being a Jew. For taking a critical stance of Israeli policies, he was dubbed an antisemite and even targeted by Mossad for a few years. It amazes me how this shameful – not to say quite illogical – equivalence can be so widely accepted.
Catherine Boswell
London"
Posted by: somebody | Apr 11 2012 19:58 utc | 69
now we talk - spiegel interviews the Foreign Minister of Luxemburg on the Grass issue (look Luxemburg up on the map :-)) - this will be news for quite a while ...
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,826744,00.html
Posted by: somebody | Apr 12 2012 5:57 utc | 70
they translated it - English version
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,826947,00.html
Posted by: somebody | Apr 12 2012 6:21 utc | 71
Israeli interior minister now considers himself at war with Germany and wants to meet Grass in a "neutral country"
http://www.abendblatt.de/politik/article2244675/Jischai-Wuerde-Grass-in-neutralem-Land-treffen.html
Posted by: somebody | Apr 12 2012 7:40 utc | 72
now the economist has a - second! - article on Günter Grass' poem under strangely the headline - American politics - and it is anonymous :-))
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/04/g%C3%BCnter-grass
wow! German intellectuals (and some French BHL) are yellow with envy ..
by the way, I just thought of a democracy reality check: Does your country decide on going to war in a democratic way i.e. via parliament?
The French and British revolutions were started because the king had to come to the people and ask for money to go to war ....
Posted by: somebody | Apr 12 2012 18:20 utc | 73
The comments to this entry are closed.
The Reich-Ranicki interview is very good.
He is clearly torn
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/das-israel-gedicht-von-grass/marcel-reich-ranicki-ueber-guenter-grass-es-ist-ein-ekelhaftes-gedicht-11710933.html
it is all very personal of course, that is why comment sections are spilling over, and yes Grass knew what he was tapping into very well ..
I guess Germans will not defend Israel.
Posted by: somebody | Apr 8 2012 14:48 utc | 1