Thanks lizard for the kind of response I'v come to respect you for over the years.

arthur, it seems to me like you're still "knocking over chairs and falling on [your] ass in [your haste to butt heads with strangers whose opinions offended [you]." Relinquish a little more of that medication. Then maybe your offerings will become worth our time to read.

Posted by: juannie | Jan 2 2012 23:55 utc | 101

re:99 "arthur, you clamored for a bit of attention..."

I wasn't clamouring for attention! Stop biting my ankles because no one is paying any serious attention to your ideas! Geez!

I was trying to sway you to the point of view that voting at the national level in the United States of America is a waste of time under present conditions and all you could do was slay straw men because...because…because…I don't have a clue why!...how the hell do I know why you do that?!?!?!?...

arghhhh....& the fact is I don't care why...

There are still 346,999,998 potential American recruits to the Cause even if you and Dan of Steel are opposed.

Let's Get This Peaceful Revolution Started!

Because if your America goes down for the count, so do we. We Canadians are linked at the figuratively cellular level in a million ways to you. If America fails as a democratic State so do we.

So, please, Please, PLEASE, GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER!!!!!!! We don’t have the required clout to do it for you.

PS: & I'm done if you're done, lizard, because you DO appear to be a well-intentioned soul, even if a tad youthfully idealistic and therefore unrealistically hopeful, impatient, rude and self-centered. I actually admire your passion. So please excuse my condescension. By the time you hit 60 it’s a required conversational tool when dealing with passionate idealists and children. We earn the right to it having to put up with the same condescension from the time we’re able to talk ourselves…

Posted by: arthurdecco | Jan 3 2012 0:19 utc | 102

I earnestly hope this isn't a double post. Because I already tried to post this and it disappeared into a black hole somewhere...

re:99 "arthur, you clamored for a bit of attention..."

I wasn't clamouring for attention! Stop biting my ankles because no one is paying any serious attention to your ideas! Geez!

I was trying to sway you to the point of view that voting at the national level in the United States of America is a waste of time under present conditions and all you could do was slay straw men because...because…because…I don't have a clue why!...how the hell do I know why you do that?!?!?!?...

arghhhh....& the fact is I don't care why...

There are still 346,999,998 potential American recruits to the Cause even if you and Dan of Steel are opposed.

Let's Get This Peaceful Revolution Started!

Because if your America goes down for the count, so do we. We Canadians are linked at the figuratively cellular level in a million ways to you. If America fails as a democratic State so do we.

So, please, Please, PLEASE, GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER!!!!!!! We don’t have the required clout to do it for you.

PS: & I'm done if you're done, lizard, because you DO appear to be a well-intentioned soul, if a tad youthfully idealistic and therefore unrealistically hopeful, impatient, rude and self-centered. I actually admire your passion. So please excuse my condescension. By the time you hit 60 it’s a required conversational tool when dealing with passionate idealists and children. We earn the right to it having to put up with the same condescension from the time we’re able to talk ourselves…

Posted by: arthurdecco | Jan 3 2012 0:22 utc | 103

Apology accepted.

Posted by: arthurdecco | Jan 3 2012 0:29 utc | 104

a little brawling over RP is understandable, given his radical and divisive views on many topics; I don't know what I'd do if I were to vote in the Us; in most other countries there is the option to vote for smaller, fringe parties, which has the benefit to appease public declarations and private conscience;

but I feel the need to side with lizard and dan of steele on the main issue, that I frame as a conception of society as a complex and mainly self-regulated machine, where a sum of little actions may have large consequences, rather than a perfect System someone can (and does) command pulling the right levers, and where resistance is futile, and the only hope is for a systemic collapse induced by mass refusal to "collaborate": a quite nihilistic perspective

at the base of my conception is that our complex, technologically advanced society is our product, a product of people who worked hard to build what we have today, and of we should be for the most part proud of; whereas for MB an others, this is all a "foreign" construction, it's "their" system, it's Capitalism; I think capitalism has at times contributed to the construction of modern society (when it could make profits by participating in, or opening, new markets), but has for the most part been a parasite of people's inventiveness

we credit our enemies for the benefits of our work, that's the reality

the fact is that Marx himself attributed all merits of modernity to the "bourgeoisie", and recognized its "historical function", and reserved for the proletariat exclusively the future; so he established a fundamentally alienating relationship between socialists and the modern society, between workers and the society their where presently building

of course within our societies hierarchies have developed, powerful lobbies and organizations, which have grown maybe too strong in these last decades - so strong as to determine a de facto impossibility to turn back and change course; so MB's points of view reflect some hard reality that nobody can ignore, even those - like me - who think his diagnosis is fundamentally nihilist

ok, enough ... just wanted to add that while I feel stimulated by MB's posts, I also have the impression that arthurdecco is behaving like those many egocentrics that surf looking for places where they can take the stage, pick on somebody, and exhibit their repertoire of provocations: people that just clog blogs

Posted by: claudio | Jan 3 2012 1:38 utc | 105

"...luckily I have you, sir, as a shining example of adult maturity..."

Oh horseshit. A "shining example of adult maturity", I ain't, nor have any desire to be. Nipping at your self-absorbent heels might not be an act of maturity, but its more than a little fun. Don't take yourself so fuckin' serious, Lizard, your scales will wilt, itch, then fall off. Good news, is, you can eat 'em.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Jan 3 2012 2:31 utc | 106

Then, of course, is the fact that these criminal sacks of shit look us straight in the eye, then lie. Is there a single one of them that hasn't misrepresented Iran's actions, policies, and leader's statements? 'Cept, Paul, that is.

So, that begs the question, what is the wisdom of casting a vote for someone YOU KNOW is lying to you? Is there some of incentive to be honest if you know your lies will get you votes? And if a lie on one topic or issue is rewarded with with our vote, where do the lies end, and where does the truth begin????

So, tell me, Lizard, which liar will you help send to the Oval Office? By the way, lying, in an effort to engage in war, IS IN FACT TREASON. So, I really am curious, which treasonous liar do you intend to reward with your vote?

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Jan 3 2012 2:43 utc | 107

"I also have the impression that arthurdecco is behaving like those many egocentrics that surf looking for places where they can take the stage, pick on somebody, and exhibit their repertoire of provocations: people that just clog blogs"

Bear in mind, one person's traffic jam might be another person's rest stop. These "clogs" you speak of are such only in your opinion, an opinion that might not be shared by the next reader. Arthur has some fun. So do I. You might try it sometime.

Surely you must agree that your "vote" is channeled, by the media, to arrive at a specific target. So, really, Arthur is correct in pointing out it is a sham that we freely, and unwisely, participate in. Does that make sense? Reward the liars and master manipulators by awarding them with great gobs of power by our own complicity in the charade?

I haven't a clue what the answer is. And they've already succeeded in criminalizing any efforts the people might engage in to regain representation. Besides, my ot-six is no match for an Apache helicopter, so "revolution" is out of the question. Basically, we are just participants in an epic fraud. Patsies. Marks.

So yeah, there IS a logical argument to be made in favor of just turning our backs on the whole ball of shit. Trouble is, even with our backs turned, we still gotta smell it.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Jan 3 2012 3:01 utc | 108

"So yeah, there IS a logical argument to be made in favor of just turning our backs on the whole ball of shit. Trouble is, even with our backs turned, we still gotta smell it." POA

You have to smell it either way. The rot’s not going away…until you exorcise it.

Posted by: arthurdecco | Jan 3 2012 4:00 utc | 109

POA, one of the reasons I don't comment much here anymore is because I get more from reading and learning, and, honestly, the caliber of b's work and the insightful commentary means I often don't have too much to add.

instead I've directed my energies to local efforts, both virtual and actual, because the people and political mechanisms that govern this beautiful state are much more accessible and open to influence than the broken two party charade at the national level.

your degree of pessimism is not unwarranted, but it sounds defeatist to me. voting might not mean anything with regard to the trajectory of this country's fascist slide, but I stand by local engagement.

oh, and year's lived certainly means more than my snot-nosed response implied.

peace.

Posted by: lizard | Jan 3 2012 4:08 utc | 110

psst, claudio...did you read a word I wrote?

You DID type: ..."exhibit their repertoire of provocations" ?!?!?!?

Ummmmm, that's what people DO when they disagree, Claudio - they 'exhibit their repertoire of provocations'. If you read the posts that surround mine, you will find evidence of 'provocations' in every one of them.

Got a problem with any one else's exhibition of their repertoire of provocations? Any one else's but mine?

LMAO!

And yes, POA, sometimes this is just fun(wink) and sometimes not. I just wish it wasn't reminding me so much of what it must be like to fence with one armed blind men these past few days...

Posted by: arthurdecco | Jan 3 2012 4:23 utc | 111

Where are you guys getting 346,999,998 voters? Official Census data gives the U.S. a total population of 307 million, and I'd even be willing to give you another 40 million un-counted or illegal persons, but even at that, there wouldn't be 340 million voters.

I'm surprised at the number of people that have walked into the bar and started fighting... I understand people's passions, but the thing about MoA has been that we've managed to keep the conversation pretty civil – even when people strongly disagree. In fact, this is what I feel makes this place so special.

Taking up bandwidth arguing like drunks isn't very fun nor does it help move these discussions forward. If you like yelling at others via the computer, there's plenty of cyberspace to do that in.

Peace

Posted by: DaveS | Jan 3 2012 4:46 utc | 112

POA, arthurdecco: I respect very much arguments against voting; but I think you should reduce the noise/signal ratio; the fun you are having is similar to the one party crashers have

Posted by: claudio | Jan 3 2012 7:08 utc | 113

peace.

Yeah, right. That's a laugh. This belies your earlier statements, supported by dan of steele, and presumably everyone else with their meaningful sound of silence. You're vested in the current System and hell-bent on working fully within it, seemingly in perpetuity, hence the "fight continues" rhetoric. That mentality means there will never be any peace, so it's rather hypocritical to end a post with such a salutation when your words, thoughts and actions will necessitate the exact opposite.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Jan 3 2012 11:57 utc | 114

at the base of my conception is that our complex, technologically advanced society is our product, a product of people who worked hard to build what we have today

I don't agree. This System is largely an undemocratic System that is based off of indoctrination and coercion. Have people worked hard? Sure, but most of it wasn't "their" brainchild, and most of it wasn't "their" choice. That's why "people" are so unhappy and discontent in The West. The System they have been coercively indoctrinated into vampirically deprives them of their psychical and physical energy, rendering them spineless, uncreative, mindless zombies doing as they're told and directed to do.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Jan 3 2012 12:06 utc | 115

Dave, that post was not directed at your "Peace." If you notice the italics I provided, the "peace" to which my post was directed was not capitalized as your's is.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Jan 3 2012 12:31 utc | 116

no, I don't share your bleak assessment of the uncreative, mindless zombies sapped of energy in the evil system you want to see collapse.

you know, MoBam, your perspective is quite elitist. you seem to think you have some unique outlook that has elevated you above the fray, and from your little pedestal you throw down grand judgments on all those lowly cogs you dehumanize.

I am really curious what you do for a living.

Posted by: lizard | Jan 3 2012 12:48 utc | 117

Since it's come up twice now, this argument that if you refrain from voting, the System will collapse, is also not well thought out, and actually quite hypocritical. Presumably, this blog covers, for the most part, U.S. foreign policy with a bent toward facilitating a U.S. retraction of its military to within its own borders and the accompanying decrease in "defense" spending that would imply. You want to talk about a collapse? Really? The only thing holding the U.S. economy together right now is "defense." You take that away, and bye, bye birdie. So, who's the nihilist here? Me? You...meaning the vocal ones and the "silent ones"? Also, despite what many here imply, the remainder of the world outside the U.S. is not made up of a bunch of Saints. If what you suggest and propose were to come to fruition, a massive power vacuum would ensue and the death and destruction that will result from the scrambling for position will be apocalyptic.

And Lizard, I thought you said you were going to cool your jets. You are the one who has taken this to a personal level. I have remained very civil throughout, and taken your jaunts and chest shoves with grace, but man, you're really pushing it. I don't want to rip you apart in front of your peers, so you are best advised to back the hell off. What I do IRL, who I am, where I live, is none of your business, and does nothing to further this conversation. In keeping with that, I don't care who you are IRL and what you've done. Asking loaded questions does not further the conversation. Pick a point that I'm making and agree or disagree with it, provide your reasoning, and do so without making it personal. That's civil and reasonable discussion.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Jan 3 2012 13:42 utc | 118

you've taken issue with me signing off wishing peace, so I kinda doubt a reasonable discussion is what you're after. I made the mistake of engaging you in a manner that has provoked much of this nasty exchange, and that's my fault. I guess I just don't have a whole lot of patience for those who casually refer to millions of people as spineless zombies. maybe you should volunteer in your community, do something good for someone else, instead of dumping your vitriol here. just a suggestion.

Posted by: lizard | Jan 3 2012 14:09 utc | 119

oh, and the reason I'm curious about what you do IRL is because, IRL, we are all hypocrites to a certain degree. we are all invested in this system, to a certain degree, which you have acknowledged. I'm more interested in what can be done IRL; in how we can practice what we preach. commenting on blogs has a very limited impact. preaching to the choir also has very limited impact. many people here probably agree with much of what you say, MoBam. but do you practice what you preach? do you go up to people and tell them what mindless, spineless zombies they are? I doubt it. instead you would like to preach to everyone here how anti-system you are. it's a little tiring, and I'm sorry I even prodded this whole conversation into existence.

Posted by: lizard | Jan 3 2012 14:30 utc | 120

you've taken issue with me signing off wishing peace

I have not taken issue with it. Everything you say here is worthy of discussion as it relates to the topic at hand. You used the word "peace" in your post so I took your own word and related it back to the discussion we were having. That's not personal....it's strictly business.

And "vitriol", please! Once again, the business of being offended and its conversation killing implications.

Would "employees" be a better description for you?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20892302/FERDINAND-LUNDBERG-THE-RICH-AND-THE-SUPER-RICH-A-Study-in-the-Power-of-Money-Today

Most adult Americans in the quasi-affluent society of today, successors to theresourceful (and wholly imaginative) Americano of Walt Whitman's lush fantasy, arenothing more than employees. For the most part they are precariously situated; nearlyall of them are menials. In this particular respect Americans, though illusion-ridden, arelike the Russians under Communism, except that the Russians inhabit a lesstechnologized society and have a single employer, There are, of course, other differences (such as the fact that Americans are allowed a longer civil leash), but not of social position. And this nation of free and equal employees is the reality that underliesand surrounds the wealthy few on the great North American continent.

Those few newspapers that make a practice of printing foreign news occasionallysurvey Latin American countries. The writers are invariably grieved to find a smalloligarchy of big landowners in control, with the remainder of the population consistingof sycophantic hangers-on and landless, poverty-stricken peasants. But I have never seen it remarked that the basic description, with the alteration of a few nouns, applies just as well to the United States, where the position of the landowners is occupied by thefinanciers, industrialists and big rentiers and that of the peasants by the low-paidemployees (all subject to dismissal for one reason or other just like the peasants).

I will add that most people don't know this about themselves, and even if they're told, and even if they read this, which most never would for obvious reasons, wouldn't believe it. I think that qualifies as indoctrinated and mindless. If the zombie part bothers you, then by all means replace it with "employees." But vitriol? Come on, that's a disservice to everything that truly is vitriol. Overuse of such terms only serves to water down its admonishing implications.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Jan 3 2012 14:51 utc | 121

"I guess I just don't have a whole lot of patience for those who casually refer to millions of people as spineless zombies"

Well, Fox News doesn't exist in a vacuum. Perhaps you have another explanation for its success.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Jan 3 2012 15:04 utc | 122

do you go up to people and tell them what mindless, spineless zombies they are? I doubt it. instead you would like to preach to everyone here how anti-system you are. it's a little tiring, and I'm sorry I even prodded this whole conversation into existence.

See, you keep making it personal. Because I make broad, sweeping statements, does not mean that it doesn't apply to me. Yes, we are all hypocrites. You, me, all of us. And yes, hypocrisy is a matter of degree, so all hypocrites are not created equal.

I'm not preaching to anyone. That's your mischaracterization. I come here and say the things I say because I thought, but now I'm rethinking it based off of my most recent experience, it was a place where you could think and talk freely, intellectually, unencumbered by the flesh and blood physical realm and its restraints on freedom of thought and expression.

You know, it's interesting that you are taking the coercive approach you are taking with this statement. The implication is that if I said the things I say here in public, I would be restrained in some way....say...by somebody physically confronting me....and yet you espouse that we don't live in a System of indoctrination and coercion. Come on, man, understand your contradictions.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Jan 3 2012 15:11 utc | 123

Hmmmm....this is weird, the AFM, an organization I didn't even know existed, is endorsing Ron Paul. Of course, the site could be an extremely dry joke, in fact, I wouldn't doubt it, but hell, if it's not, it supports my contention that in this time of the Singularity, satire, and the reality from which it is derived, are now indistinguishable and seemingly one and the same. The convergence is complete. Hanna-Barbera is now non-fiction.

http://www.americanfascistmovement.com/news.html

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Jan 3 2012 16:26 utc | 124

I think "this largely undemocratic system" isn't anybody's brainchild, and is the result of the choices of no one in particular; it developed according to guidelines and values that were widely shared: the obsession with productivity, the lack of ecological concerns, the search for material goods and "comforts" over sobriety, and, until the second half of the XIX century, the lack of concern for the proletariat, etc

and of course "widely shared" doesn't mean that it was a democratic, egualitarian enterprise; it simply means there was consensus

to say that all this was the result of "indoctrination and coercion" misunderstands the forces at play; it attributes the power to "make believe" to particular social groups, whereas I think this is the main attribute of the greatest of social powers unleashed by modernity, the power of ideology

so yes, what we build isn't all good; we look at it and we discover we don't like it so much, now that we have it; or that there are side-effects we hadn't anticipated; this doesn't mean we were sort of deceived by somebody; it means we shared illusions and wrong assumptions, etc; to conclude that after all this is not our creation, but someone elses, it's disarming, depressing and self-defeating

Posted by: claudio | Jan 3 2012 17:36 utc | 125

some comments are really nasty (no names); there are so many ways to make a point, also a personal point, without escalating; and there are "tough guy" attitudes that remind me of junior high school, rather than mature analysts, geostrategists, ideologists, etc;

previous mass movements have always suffered from divisions founded on "the correct analysis" and susequent reciprocal excommunications, etc; in these dark times we should make an extra effort to understand other peoples' points of view, etc; it's probable that to build something new we will have to re-use components taken from many apparently incompatible traditions, so it's not the time to stiffen our particular points of view in condemnations and oppositions towards others;

Posted by: claudio | Jan 3 2012 18:05 utc | 126

to say that all this was the result of "indoctrination and coercion"

Not was. Rather, is.

It's what we have here and now, not what once upon a time, long ago, predicated it. That can be argued at length, but it doesn't change the here and now.

This System is a System based largely off of incentives and disincentives, and those rewards and punishments are very much professionally managed by a myriad of technocrats at various levels of status responsibility. What may have been a closely held value or principle in the past, is stubbornly, but eventually, abandoned and replaced with the values and principles that are currently being rewarded. To maintain adherence to what are now seen as discarded and irrelevant values and principles will bring extrinsic punishment. That's coercion....without the indoctrination. It's how the switch evolves....or devolves, if you will. Once the switch takes place, perhaps over a a generation or two, the indoctrination of the subsequent generations takes place with the accompanying coercive rewards and punishments should anyone stray from the flock.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Jan 3 2012 18:14 utc | 127

MB#124,

The RP bus is getting pretty crowded, funny how you can tell where you are and where you're going by looking around at the other passengers - fellow travelers.

Posted by: anna missed | Jan 3 2012 19:05 utc | 128

claudio #125,

yes.

Posted by: anna missed | Jan 3 2012 19:10 utc | 129

claudio #125,

Ayn Rand's so called "objectivism" didn't become popular because it was some new novel idea. It was well received because it outlined and gave voice to what had already been absorbed and assimilated by the culture to the degree that the "people" willingly assume their role within the Spectacle without question.

Posted by: anna missed | Jan 3 2012 19:28 utc | 130

@anna missed

that kind of pseudo-philosophy really was mainstream until recently, but then the endless, fruitless wars and the bank bailouts shattered the dominating narratives (western civilization, capitalism, democracy, etc) of which such pseudo-philosophies were simply intellectual adornments; now people simply don't know what to think; times are ripe for a mass change in attitudes; people feel, know they've been scammed, but there isn't a counter-narrative capable of rationalizing what happened; so conspiracies abound, with demoralizing effects

Posted by: claudio | Jan 3 2012 22:12 utc | 131

arthur you clamored for a bit of attention..."

I wasn't clamouring for attention!

I was trying to sway you to the point of view that voting at the national level in the United States of America is a waste of time under present conditions and all you could do was...what exactly?!?!?!?...

arghhhh....

There are still 346,999,998 potential American recruits to the Cause even if you and Dan of Steel are opposed.

Let's Get This Peaceful Revolution Started!

Because if your America goes down for the count, so do we. We Canadians are linked at the figuratively cellular level in a million ways to you. If America fails as a democratic State so do we.

So, please, Please, PLEASE, GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER!!!!!!! We don’t have the required clout to do it for you.

...& I'm done if you're done, lizard, because you DO appear to be a well-intentioned soul, if a tad youthfully idealistic and therefore unrealistically hopeful, impatient, sometimes rude and self-centered. I actually admire your passion. So please excuse my condescension. By the time you hit 60 it’s a required conversational tool when dealing with passionate idealists and children. We earn the right to it having to put up with the same condescension from the time we’re able to talk ourselves…

Posted by: arthurdecco | Jan 4 2012 1:44 utc | 132

"POA, one of the reasons I don't comment much here anymore...."

Yeah, I took note of the low volume of posts submitted by you....

HUH????

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Jan 4 2012 14:45 utc | 133

that comment was for the long-time barflies who remember the troll-fest that ensued during Iran's color revolution. lots of folks got burnt out by all the activity, our host included. since the bar has reopened, until just recently, no, I haven't had much to say. does that clear up your confusion?

Posted by: lizard | Jan 4 2012 14:55 utc | 134

one of the reasons I don't comment much here anymore is because I get more from reading and learning, and, honestly, the caliber of b's work and the insightful commentary means I often don't have too much to add.

Lizard, I share your sentiment, yet I do miss your regular contributions, and if only for the amazing poetry you brought to the Moon.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Jan 4 2012 20:29 utc | 135

And just for the record I can vouch for lizard's comment. He hasn't been posting much since the MoA reopened compared to before it closed down.

I sometimes appreciate invective leveled against the corporate/governmental criminal class in Amerika because, in my invective, I see them as the lowest form of protoplasmic scum to infect our planet and it is good to sometimes hear such truthfully crude criticisms expressed so graphically. However I don’t appreciate animosity expressed as Horizontal Hostility here at the Moon where so much tolerance has been shown over the years in discussing contentious issues. I would council all, new comers and old timers alike to continue here in this vein. Such civility among allies or even potential allies is good long term investment and will help keep this place a rare and valuable gem.

Posted by: juannie | Jan 4 2012 23:49 utc | 136