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November 24, 2011
Open Thread – Nov 24
Your news & views …
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I would like to request an ongoing and in-depth MOA thread dedicated to the ongoing and in-depth international financial crisis, with particular emphasis on the future of the Euro, the Eurozone economies, and the overall project for the creation of a European Community. There are, of course, already many forums where such discussion is well-advanced and enriched by daily comments, one might cite Yves Simith’s Naked Capitalism blog, as well as MOA’s “sister site”, EuroTribune, not to mention many many economic commentators. Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 24 2011 18:58 utc | 1 Why would Germany, the only member of the EU with financial rectitude, not be able to sell 35% of its offerings of 10-year bonds? Germany has no debt problems, and its economy is expected by EU and US authorities to bear the lion’s share of the bailout of the EU member countries that do lack financial rectitude. Posted by: hans | Nov 24 2011 19:55 utc | 2 “Any one care to elaborate why?” Posted by: Lysander | Nov 24 2011 20:23 utc | 3 Agreed. The Automatic Earth has had extensive and very good coverage, albeit from the perspectives of their limited author base. I’d love to see more from folks here who live inside The Euro Beast, and also from folks living in the Euro periphery. Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Nov 24 2011 20:27 utc | 4 @2 Posted by: nobodee | Nov 24 2011 20:47 utc | 5 It is finally here — the inevitable Hitler spoof on the Euro collapse: Posted by: Cynthia | Nov 24 2011 20:52 utc | 6 Germany has an ~80% debt-to-GDP which is ‘a bit’ above the supposed (and irrelevant) debt-to-GDP limit in the Maastricht Treaty (irrelevant since the day France and Germany decided in the early 00s it wasn’t written for them) . Then it also has a lot of underwater banks (that always get to pass all the ‘stress’ tests without problems) with more or less exposure to the ‘bad southerners’ debt (not as much as France though). I don’t know if it has exposure to Eastern Europe (that it’s not on the news but there are also problems there and it’s starting to affect Austria). Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 24 2011 20:54 utc | 7 Any hard references/citations to persistent rumors Germany has been quietly printing and stockpiling Deutschmarks and Ireland has been doing the same as a contingency for abandoning the Euro ? Posted by: Outraged | Nov 24 2011 21:35 utc | 8 @2 Posted by: c | Nov 24 2011 21:35 utc | 9 @ Outraged: “and Ireland has been doing the same as a contingency for abandoning the Euro ?” Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Nov 24 2011 23:15 utc | 10 @ Colm O’ Toole Posted by: Outraged | Nov 25 2011 0:18 utc | 11 Medvedev’s special statement on missile defense Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 25 2011 1:15 utc | 12 The Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis (Henry C.K. Liu) Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 25 2011 1:22 utc | 13 As Thanksgiving Day draws to a close here in the U.S., I feel it is appropriate to thank b for all his endeavors at MOA. I look in at MOA continuously and b posts have remained 1st Class. Posted by: Rick Happ | Nov 25 2011 1:29 utc | 14 My three cents: Posted by: Watson | Nov 25 2011 4:42 utc | 15 @2
Posted by: nobodee | Nov 25 2011 5:04 utc | 16 Dr W Yueh @ 4. Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 25 2011 5:40 utc | 17 Regarding the Paul Craig Roberts article. Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 25 2011 6:49 utc | 18 What is happening, both in the US and in Europe, is that the bondholders are being made whole, and hundreds of billions, and more likely trillions, of dollars in losses are being piled onto each country’s exponentially growing sovereign debt load. Meanwhile, the banksters are richer than ever, and their “too big to fail” banks are more powerful than ever. As countries default, the banksters will swoop in and buy hard sovereign assets for pennies on the dollar, and the majority of the western world’s populations will complete the transfer from wage slave to indentured servant, and then from indentured servant to forced laborer. Welcome to the New World Feudal Order. Posted by: Cynthia | Nov 25 2011 13:15 utc | 20 actually the “debate between the “Anglo-Saxon” Keynesians and the “hard money fiscal conservatives” is hardly a debate coz they’re just looking for the same thing, maintainaing afloat a sinking ship. ie current worldwide economic system (mind you, after attacking eurozone, guess what’ll be next & terminus) Posted by: rototo | Nov 25 2011 13:18 utc | 21 Today’s Italian debt auction was even more horrible than the latest Spanish debt auction at the start of the week (and after the ‘failed’ German bond auction). Both nations are already clearly out of the debt markets (exactly like Greece, Ireland and Portugal) though they could still pretend that the game isn’t over for a while. Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 25 2011 15:55 utc | 22 Surprisingly good comment for a ZH poster (I’m tired of those gold fanatics and doomers, they are on the same level that the ‘evil bankers’ and ‘captured politicians’ they complain about) giving the perspective from Germany.
Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 25 2011 16:05 utc | 23 Wooooooosh. Economics, and the international political machinations that drive economies are waaaaay over my head. Its gibberish to me. My gut informs me of the importance, and I’m certain, just like war based on false pretense, economies rise and fall on the whims of people that are far too evil to hold the power they do. Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Nov 25 2011 16:42 utc | 24 Here Here! PissedOff, Posted by: juannie | Nov 25 2011 17:09 utc | 25 @ Hannah 1, and all, a less well known Econo blogger, is Golem XIV, David Malone, who wrote the book Debt Generation. His blog also has very good comments (like naked capitalism.) It is ‘generalist’, mostly concerned with banks, the Euro, monetary matters, etc. UK. Posted by: Noirette | Nov 25 2011 17:56 utc | 26 They can’t draw attention to Fukushima. As how many millions of Americans would realize they are sitting on ticking Time Bombs with every deadly potential an actual nuclear war portends? Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Nov 25 2011 17:59 utc | 27 Cynthia @20. Posted by: Jeremiah Cornelius | Nov 25 2011 18:16 utc | 28 Thanks to rototo @ 21 for the link to the Paul Jorion blog, and to all those elucidating Paul Craig Roberts’
Italy’s gross national income in 2010 was roughly 2 trillion dollars (1.883 is the quoted figure). Five per cent of that would be close to 100 billion dollars, or slightly under 75 billion euros. Achieving a primary budget SUPLUS of that magnitude does indeed seem utterly and irremediably impossible, but do these critics (and others like Mish Shedlock or Reggie Middleton) really know what they are talking about? Their figures seem to be apocalyptic, but they also seem to be the most credible figures that are being introduced to the debate. (Correct me here, if I err, as may well be the case.) If the Euro has become unsustainable, what happens “after the financial armageddon” of a market collapse of horrific proportions. Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 25 2011 18:42 utc | 29 How much do you respect these people turning the screws in Washington DC??? Well, all they need do now, is tack a label on YOU, and merely by virtue of that label, your rights as an American are forfieted. And they are working diligently to buttress their ability to tattoo “Public Enemy Number One” on the foreheads of ANY American that opposes them. Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Nov 25 2011 18:58 utc | 30 Your invective resonates strongly with me but for me it PissesOff more amerikans than it informs. You’re in sympathetic company so it actually is a relief to hear the truth so expressed. Posted by: juannie | Nov 25 2011 19:09 utc | 31 @ 30: That IS scary !! Posted by: Watson | Nov 25 2011 19:11 utc | 32 Answering from top to bottom:
I don’t agree on the reasons Mitchell names why this was done. I believe it was done to lower the value of the Euro (and to thereby increase exports from Europe to everywhere else). It worked! At least the Germans aren’t invading and bombing the hell out of every country that they want to influence, like the cabal in control of the US government is doing. So if there is a Fourth Reich, it is right here in America. Posted by: Cynthia | Nov 25 2011 20:34 utc | 34 b it would be wonderful if you are right and this is just a carefully crafted plan to lower the Euro value against other currencies (the German obsession with trade surplus and BTW ‘printing’ would achieve the same objective without so much destruction of the real economy, just like every other sovereign is doing right now) and fight back the evil and bankrupted US/UK bankers. Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 25 2011 21:15 utc | 35 what be happening? twice I post somethin & twice it disappeared. Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 26 2011 2:56 utc | 36 That one didn’t. Is there an undeclared limit on links or verbosity nowadays? Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 26 2011 2:57 utc | 37 @Debs – after hitting “Post” scroll down to the very end, then fill out the spam challenge, and submit it. This HARDtalk interview was on BBC Radio last night. Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 26 2011 7:38 utc | 39 what is going on in Timbuktu? Posted by: somebody | Nov 26 2011 11:47 utc | 40
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 26 2011 13:19 utc | 41 @ 41. Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 27 2011 8:57 utc | 42
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 27 2011 20:46 utc | 43 Zero Hedge looks at the recent report on value of Credit Default Swaps. Posted by: jawbone | Nov 28 2011 2:40 utc | 44 Thanks to Noirette for the useful links. Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 28 2011 6:30 utc | 45 To be filed, perhaps, under the category “never believe a rumor until it has been officially denied”:according to the NYTimes the IMF has denied the reports cited in 45 above:
It seems to be flat-out denial of the story, but perhaps a more subtle reading is required: is the IMF talking to the ECB or other authorities about such matters? It is true that there remains a dense aura of incredibility around any loan of such proportions. Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 28 2011 9:55 utc | 46 Couple interesting comments from the Zero Hedge link in #44:
Posted by: jawbone | Nov 28 2011 15:50 utc | 47 When was it that you last read an in depth article or series of articles on the smarmy tentacles of the Rothschild family’s private international banking consortium(s)? It just doesn’t happen. These financial terrorists might as well not exist for all we know about them. Posted by: arthurdecco | Nov 28 2011 20:30 utc | 48 I’m going to throw this out for PissedOffAmerican (whose jib I quite like the cut of) and anyone else who is trying to keep a scorecard of recent American legislative proposals with far-reaching potential for abuse. Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 28 2011 23:41 utc | 49 Guh… here’s something a bit more recent. Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 29 2011 2:57 utc | 50 Same criminals, different crimes…
Oh, regarding Monolycus’s #50 Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 29 2011 4:19 utc | 51 Here’s an issue that Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party could both see eye-to-eye over if they weren’t being played against one another by the very beneficiaries of it. Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 29 2011 7:01 utc | 52 In memory of Samuel Langhorne Clemens (November 30, 1835 – April 21, 1910), better known by his pen name, Mark Twain
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 30 2011 3:28 utc | 53 Re: IMF denial mentioned in #46 by Hannah — Is this agreement for central banks around the world to provide dollars to the EuroZone what was at the root of the IMF providing $6 Trillion rumor? Posted by: jawbone | Nov 30 2011 17:50 utc | 54 U.S. Settles Suit Over Anthrax Attacks
Here’s your money, now keep your mouth shut. Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 30 2011 20:09 utc | 56 I have my own army in the NYPD, which is the seventh biggest army in the world.
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 1 2011 2:20 utc | 57 China Syndrome – Study Shows Worse Picture of Meltdown in Japan
b@55 but no more or less than reading about the latest EU ‘leaders’ ramblings and new ‘solution’ to the crisis. Posted by: ThePaper | Dec 1 2011 8:26 utc | 59 Bloomberg’s Army also cracked the lens of Greg Palast’s videographer. Mayor Mike and his Army do seem to have an unusual* view of Freedom of the Press. I would think Bloomberg believes only Big Corporate Press has any freedoms, and that they know what not to cover and report on…so they’re OK. Posted by: jawbone | Dec 1 2011 15:29 utc | 60 Tax Havens. Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Dec 2 2011 2:09 utc | 61 In a single month, Congress introduces SOPA, the National Defense Authorization Act and Amendment 1068, so in 2012, you could be sitting in a military prison being tortured for life and the internet wouldn’t be there to raise awareness about you. And Moon has yet to discuss this..?? Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 2 2011 6:23 utc | 62 In a single month, Congress introduces SOPA, the National Defense Authorization Act and Amendment 1068, so in 2012, you could be sitting in a military prison being tortured for life and the internet wouldn’t be there to raise awareness about you. And Moon has yet to discuss this..?? Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Dec 2 2011 9:13 utc | 63 U$@62–
Posted by: Outraged | Dec 2 2011 14:48 utc | 65 Zbigniew Brzezinski numbered the United States among “the most socially unjust societies in the world,” citing American income inequality, …
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 3 2011 8:27 utc | 66
Posted by: Outraged | Dec 7 2011 13:09 utc | 67 Both the Republican and Democratic parties are currently trying to coopt the Occupy movement. Both are failing spectacularly to get it. Posted by: Monolycus | Dec 8 2011 9:43 utc | 68 Thanks to giap for the oligarchy link, and to all those who have shed light on what remains (and is undoubtedly destined to remain) an extremely murky politico-economic impasse. What does emerge clearly is that European politicians are in a veritable frenzy, outdoing themselves in efforts to “save” Europe. I suspect that the views of Watson @ 15, Cynthia @ 20, and Noirette @ 26 express the essentials, but I remain hungry for the “mechanical details” and the “psychological intricacies” of the unfolding drama. As to the former, Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Dec 9 2011 11:31 utc | 70 |
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