It is not about "Demands":
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October 9, 2011
Occupy Wall Street
Comments
covering our local occupation: http://4and20blackbirds.wordpress.com/
Posted by: lizard | Oct 9 2011 19:10 utc | 1
Indeed.
Why should the OWS protesters list demands? A set list of Demands are an attempt by counter-revolutionaries to box in the protesters. They want them to list some concrete policy plans so they can then divide them along the same old dividing lines.
Erin Brunnet the CNN host was one the worst. Here was a supposed “financial journalist” saying she didn’t know what the protesters are protesting against. Of course it doesn’t take a great deal of financial knowledge to know that given the last 3 years why people would be protesting Wall St.
Protesting outside Wall St is all the clarity you need. People who ain’t corporate whores know the reason for it.
Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Oct 10 2011 1:32 utc | 2
Yertle the Turtle
Then again, from below, in the great heavy stack,
Came a groan from that plain little turtle named Mack.
“Your Majesty, please… I don’t like to complain,
But down here below, we are feeling great pain.
I know, up on top you are seeing great sights,
But down here at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
We turtles can’t stand it. Our shells will all crack!
Besides, we need food. We are starving!” groaned Mack.
But, as Yertle, the Turtle King, lifted his hand
And started to order and give the command,
That plain little turtle below in the stack,
That plain little turtle whose name was just Mack,
Decided he’d taken enough. And he had.
And that plain little lad got a bit mad.
And that plain little Mack did a plain little thing.
He burped!
And his burp shook the throne of the king!
Atlas Shrugged, my ass. “Mack Burped”
Posted by: catlady | Oct 10 2011 1:55 utc | 3
The Israeli spring or ‘social movement’ or whatever is emblematic of no change and asking for a larger slice of the pie – cheaper cottage cheese, more and better affordable housing. – Making it brief…
Ignoring the ‘occupation’ of Palestine, etc. The slices of population who benefit outrageously from the system – Orthodox Jews and the Settlers – did not participate. Nor did the oppressed – Arabs living in israel. So you have a kind of middle tranche, proper citizens (with guitars and smart clothes and all, time off to live in tents) demanding more from – the Gvmt, the ppl. they elected, and within the status quo. The caricature is extremely painful, vassals asking the masters to review their pay book, advantages, etc., to guarantee their participation in oppression and murder, while ignoring true beneficiaries and real losers. (That said, the poverty in Israel is shocking, but not much was even heard about that?)
Egypt and Tunisia had dictators to overthrow – and the demands were in the main political.
The OWS has ‘demands’ are more institutionally focussed, marginally political (e.g. end corporate takeover of elections.) And yet. There are several lists hanging about…with demands free health care, free college, guaranteed living wage even if unemployed, racial and gender equal rights, debt forgiveness for individuals… I was struck by how much these demands echo what pertains in many EU countries (if imperfectly or partly), and not only Scandinavian ones. The rest seems to concentrate on Wall Street Greed and Banks (plus the Fed? – echoes of Ron Paul), a worthy adversary to be sure. The stuff about ‘green energy’ etc. is straight-out Democrat, the other green points, environmental degradation, etc. are better.
Personally, I would have preferred a stronger political thrust (e.g. setting up a third party) and massive anti-war demonstrations federating across the board. Oct 6 was the ten year anniversary of the Afgh. disaster. Or targeted actions, maybe small but spectacular, that bother people. Strikes. Actually occupying (as opposed to gathering somewhere). Or local, aimed at one problem, making one point.
The Tea Party represented oppo’ from the right, it was soon ‘recuperated’ by the Repubs. The oppo’ from the left or the mainstream would do well to strongly oppose Obama and the Democrat apparatus, but I have seen nothing of that.
I’m not hopeful.
Unrealistic demands are not in themselves a problem if one has some clue of how to split them up and achieve *something.*
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 10 2011 9:35 utc | 4
Noirette, i think there is a conscious effort by protesters NOT to be co-opted by the Democrat party, but corporate media is doing it’s best to set up the OWS vs. tea party meme.
Posted by: lizard | Oct 10 2011 12:38 utc | 5
Fox ‘news’ lies
Geraldo gets a warm welcome to leave from OWS.
Peace
at lizard, I’m glad to hear it, good – yes the corp. media frames it all to make the protests look ridiculous…
We are the 99%…
Seen from far off, USA citizens tolerance for abuse, due to:
restrictive and vindictive laws, being the dupe in deceptive schemes, usurious interest rates and illegitimate charges of all kinds, bureaucratic imbroglios, sadistic work-place policies and practices, health care that feeds bodies into a corporate maw to squeeze dollars out, a crime-and-prison system run amuck, poor services whether public or private, incomprehensible tax system, and more, all this as they affect individuals day by day, possibly for the rest of their lives (e.g. student debt, medical) or at least once a month – is wondrous to behold.
Insane, as if sect-members put up with indignities just to ‘belong’… Of course there are advantages as well.
So it is fantastic that some citizens at least are indignant or furious, and trying to organize.
Getting rid of all that though means examining openly what is actually going on …and probably tearing up the political system of the US and all of its founding traditions or myths. Neither of which will happen soon if ever. See the USSR?
Example: Health care.
If a good part of those in the medical field from cleaners to nurses to doctors to compassionate dentists to clinic owners to ambulance drivers (all those who deal with patients more or less directly) just said STOP, I won’t participate in this mad system any longer, I don’t care if my job is lost (tough call, that, impossible for most, and there you have it ) it is Game Over. The part that wishes to continue would be non-functioning.
Perforce, some grass roots groups would take over, and the result would be a patchwork of libertarian type pay as ya go schemes, others would be more contributory (insurance) set up by X group, with their own doc on call, etc. – States might set up some paid for by tax schemes.
Somewhat similar to what existed in the past and even the present. (See Vet health care, Indian health care, etc.) Health care would be overall better in some ways, far worse in others.
However such a sea change would throw several millions of citizens out of work. (see link.)
Insurance, all – med secrs insurance specialists, all – Drugs, many, producers, distributors – Med equipment, many or because of chaos, all – Gvmt workers in Medicare, Medicaid, and all the rest – all. Specialist medecine and machines – some. Plus all the shareholders *e.g. pension funds* left with steep losses. Etc.
In short, for ‘universal’ health care, ‘single payer’ health care that is affordable and just, in some kind of reasonable scheme, or ‘free health care’ or even ‘cheap, affordable’ health care to happen, something like 6 – 10 million or far more ppl would lose their jobs.
And would no longer pay taxes. In a just society, this upheaval would mean they would require consequent unemployment pay, and re-training – to do what?
Too big to fail? The banks? I think not.
Reform from the top is not possible, as has been shown.
http://healthcareers.about.com/od/whychoosehealthcare/tp/Why-Work-in-Healthcare.htm
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 10 2011 14:13 utc | 7
Here’s a list of demands and complaints even the tea-partiers might understand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKEZoY-TMG4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Posted by: Cynthia | Oct 10 2011 21:52 utc | 8
@Noirette #4
Egypt and Tunisia had dictators to overthrow – and the demands were in the main political.
The OWS has ‘demands’ are more institutionally focussed, marginally political (e.g. end corporate takeover of elections.)
In a sense, the Us has a dictatorship of its own, that rules also over Europe and great part of the rest of the world, and the OWS movement has identified one of its centers
You don’t make “political” demands nowadays at the White House or Congress, do you? Quite delegitimizing for Obama.
I think there’s a lot of collective intelligence in this movement (besides a great physical courage).
I agree on what you say of the third party (for which there would absurd legal hurdles in the majority of the States) – the whole civilized world is waiting for a “democratic” (oldspeak) party to take hold and change the political agenda in the Us
Posted by: claudio | Oct 10 2011 23:40 utc | 9
So, I’ll ask once again, who is the audience for that poster? If it’s me, it’s preaching to the choir. If it’s the conservative portion of the 99%, good luck with that. If it’s to the Plutocrats, yeah…..right…good try. If it’s too Washington…….that’s a good one.
Holding a sign saying you don’t have demand s and just want a future, won’t get you that future. You have to take it, and in order to do that, you have to have some type of vision. If the Establishment is preventing you from having a future with any dignity, then the answer is pretty easy. Getting there is the hard part, and it will requires incredible sacrifice and a great many unknown martyrs, but there’s going to be involuntary pain, suffering and gnashing of teeth anyway, so what is there to lose, right?
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 11 2011 0:45 utc | 10
i don’t think this burgeoning movement needs to tear anything down; it’s gonna fall on its own. i hope these general assemblies can provide a model that will fill the vacuum, to counter the neo-feudalism the 1% seem to want to impose on the majority.
one of the things i’ve noticed is how people are connecting, meeting, bringing whatever skills they can offer, feeling useful, feeling needed, not feeling so isolated and alone.
and folks are doing this physically, being actually present, occupying space. social media is a critical aspect of spreading the message(s), but it’s the direct interaction that’s reawakening the need for tangible community.
it’s great. fucking great. and if this non- hierarchal, decentralized movement can keep growing, it’s going to scare the shit out of our ruling elite.
Posted by: lizard | Oct 11 2011 2:49 utc | 11
@MB – I think you’re a bit rigid on your scheme of action; the OWS is creating the conditions for a political change, for which public opinion isn’t ready; actually this is a fight for mental and psychological liberation against the power of the ideology that dominated the last 30 years; and this is something that happens through a mass movement within which a new “chemical reactions” take place through personal contacts when a “critical mass” is reached, like it’s happening now;
Lizard’s posts transmit this kind of excitement
you would overload and derail the movement if you asked it to express a program in this phase;
there’s a collective awakening that needs to take place, and the OWS movement is contributing to it; you can’t ask it to do more; it’s only the beginning
Posted by: claudio | Oct 11 2011 6:53 utc | 12
@12, it “feels’ and “looks” very similar to the Obama Hope & Change campaign. I called that for what it was then, and look at that now. People were furious with me at the time, and many of the same people have not properly atoned for their vitriolic defense of that scam. The problem with not atoning is that you don’t learn from the experience, and are therefore just as vulnerable to the same machinations. Now that politicians are using the OWS to stump in their election and reelection campaigns and Bloomberg has changed his initial tune and said OWS can stay as long as they want, I’m convinced nothing whatsoever will come of this “movement.”
You want a future, then quit relying on Technogeek Saviors like Jobs and Kurzweil to construct your holding pens to the point where us Luddites can’t communicate with you because of your I-Phone barb wire.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 11 2011 10:52 utc | 13
I’m gonna side with Morocco Bama on this thing… Anyone remember what happened to the Black Panther Party? Dirty political tricks, police set-ups and the eventual demise of that groups original platform – along with a mainstream history that makes the original BPP seem like a bunch of militant freaks only looking for violence.
That group’s history is a good study in how TPTB will infiltrate and ruin any real opposition to their plan… The original tea party protest (remember those?) are another group that got TPTBs double secrete probationary mind fuck, and now all you hear about the organization in the mainstream press is gays, gods and guns and nothing about government fiscal responsibility, which is what the group originally rallied behind.
My heart is with the protesters, even while my mind is thinking of ways TPTB are probably gonna ruin the whole shebang. I’ve read too much about the government’s dirty tricks to trust anything that gets MSM airtime. And see, I am even doing it myself… I’m worried about the ‘government’ when in reality, isn’t it the multinational asshole corporate fucks who are behind the politician?
I’m not sure if many of you ever go to the Market Ticker, but it’s an interesting read and should be required for anyone who wants to start spouting Marx or some other socialist philosophy. Not to dissuade you from your beliefs, but so you can see what you’re up against.
Personally, I like pure capitalism, something which doesn’t exist in the America of today… on the other hand, I’m not some libertarian freak, I also believe that our modern society needs to have a socialist outlook, otherwise our world becomes some crazy madmax existence. How to balance the needs of the individual against the needs of the group is hard though.
Whenever one of my big ‘L’ Libertarian buddies starts spouting-off about socialist, I like to remind him about roads… one of the greatest uses of socialism (IMO) and I give them a lil’ history lesson about roads in Colorado and how back a couple hundred years ago the instate roads/mt passes where privately owned, and users paid tolls to travel. In a pure capitalist system this is how it would work, right? And about the time my buddies start smiling, dreaming of these private roads, I remind them that during those past times, the roads were a mess… some sections were cared for and others were a freakin’ drama trying to travel over, and the inconsistency was a burden on the infant territory.
I have a wee bit of hope for these protest… but I’m not going to hold my breath, or be surprised, when things go bad.
peace
DaveS
@MB – I don’t really disagree in general with what you say; but you can’t task a single movement to burden the many fronts of the cultural, social and political liberation we need; the OWS movement, by the very fact that calls for occupation of Wall Street instead of the White House is a blow to Obama’s credibility (and of Us politics in general); he’s not the reference point for those who “believe in change” (terrible slogan, btw)
second point, it’s the first mass movement in the Us explicitly against neoliberist theology; and it’s a welcome reaction to the Tea Party pretension to represent the “common man”; it is already opening up new possibilities in the political power game (unfortunately not many are interested in exploring them)
for the rest, I too am not very optimistic; without a real program, a political organization, and with Fbi expertise in provocations, etc, and with fascist laws that limit public expression, the movement will eventually fade away; but a stretch of the path in the right will have been covered
another appreciable side effect of the protest is that might open up someone’s eyes on the contradictions of the current rhetoric on democracy, freedom of expression, etc; freedom, yes, but only for our enemies’ dissidents, not for ours: 700 arrests, confiscation of cell-phones, etc: imagine it happened in … Iran?
Posted by: claudio | Oct 11 2011 13:57 utc | 15
@claudio 9
Oh claudio I agree. What I meant was for ex. all ordinary Tunisians that were not directly connected to the regime could agree that getting rid of the Ben Ali clique was the first order of business. A partial analysis of the situation, yet it serves to federate everybody. And an appeal to more or greater democracy goes over extremely well at home and is hard to deny or repress from abroad. (In the US, that might translate to getting rid of Congress – unimaginable.)
————
Today is not 20 years ago, not to mention the post war US..if you protest, or strike, or do ‘actions’, or make ‘demands’, there needs to be an opposing party, someone who will hear your voice, take you into account, and react. That reaction might be violently repressive – it is a reaction none the less. in Tunisia and Egypt – old fashioned in many ways, conservative – the Regimes took the protests seriously from the start, and they had the wind up; while some were puffed up by disbelief and misguided self-confidence. Both are reactions. Both were attitudes shaped to an ongoing reality.
When no reaction is forthcoming (besides what the French call ‘recuperation’ – pols saying, oh zis citiZen demand, eh oui, I will jump on ze agenda wiz dat) the movement dies.
The whole affair has an appearance of going through the motions, of playing a role, of being ppl who must act in this or that way, according to this or that script, echoing the Elites themselves, and public, corporate, work life in general. One plays a chosen (or forced) role, one is a good employee who can hold on to their job, or a good pol who can mesmerize and convince, or a pundit who gets with the meme, the line, the mainstream think tank ideas, or a poor person who pretends to be mentally challenged to get social funds, or an upright protestor, or a joking (clap clap, tinny laughter) media person, etc.
Both personal creativity and feelings, emotions, and a collective spirit – empathy if one likes (they are no antithetical) are lost in the maze of a Taylorist society and its hidden control. This is not particular to OWS, and if OWS can find a way through (as lizard seems to suggest) it would be fantastic.
sadly, not optimistic
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 11 2011 15:06 utc | 16
Both personal creativity and feelings, emotions, and a collective spirit – empathy if one likes (they are no antithetical) are lost in the maze of a Taylorist society and its hidden control.
Yes, so true. We are socially-engineered creations, and until all of us, and when I say all of us, I mean the majority, recognize this, any endeavor is subject to being swallowed up and institutionalized, and or an institutional endeavor from the start.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 11 2011 15:33 utc | 17
Morocco Bama,
As I think about the thousands of workers at Foxconn that’ll be replaced with robots over the next several years, I’m reminded that robots will NEVER consume thus they are, collectively a one-sided view of economic development. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have them, but we need to seriously consider the end game BEFORE the groundswell of automation replaces even humans doing either highly creative or technologically advanced work.
For instance, are you aware that there are now computer programs (see link below) that can write and design code and refine it continually until a human can no longer understand it, yet it produces a wonderful result? That’s incredible and scary all at the same time!
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/robot_invasion/2011/09/robot_invasion_can_computers_replace_scientists_.html
Eventually we are going to have come up with a different metric for human value other than hours worked at a sustainable wage to drive economic consumption.
If you’re rich in assets, you can already do this by having your capital gains taxed at a very low rate and by being in a market that can provide you with sustainable income with only a few million in investment assets. Obviously without being rich in assets, you’re just peddling your hourly worth, which seemingly will continue to diminish, based on trends worldwide. Revolution or evolution awaits .. just letting the current trend in robotics to continue unabated will lead to revolution.
So it’s looking like “General” Ludd and the self-styled Luddites were right after all. And anyone who thought that Kurt Vonnegut’s Player Piano was more than just science fiction was right, too.
A Twilight Zone episode comes to mind here …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7gSDgegq8U
Posted by: Cynthia | Oct 11 2011 15:45 utc | 18
@18, absolutely. Great post….and I couldn’t agree more.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 11 2011 17:09 utc | 19
Well, that link starts with “here’s what the protesters are so angry about” yet I’ve heard it described that the character of these “protests” is not one of anger, at all. In fact, one commentator described it as festive and jovial, which is quite the contrary of “angry.” So, which is it? Like I said, you can’t have your cake and eat it, too, like so many had with the Obama Hope and Change thing.
The latest thing I saw was that OWS, in one of its incarnations nationally, was incorporating the Indian Rights issue. Really? And this is different from the typical song and dance from the Democratic Party in what way? I have news for the clueless on the ground. Embracing Special Interests and pushing for protected status for said groups with rights above and beyond the rest isn’t going to fly any longer. It’s equal rights and opportunity for ALL at this point.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 13 2011 11:02 utc | 21
@18
Robots do replace humans see airplane pilots, car producers, or for a Luddite example, textile workers from the late paleolithic till today.
Yet, robots consume much energy and rest on much human work. They have to be designed, built (metals, plastics, oil, factories) and serviced, like cars for ex, a car is a robot that gets us round and about.
So robotics shifts employment, and may specialize and concentrate it, to favor engineers, the energy nexus, extraction, computer control specialists, electronic repair men, etc., knocking out manual workers who use older procedures. It also, more importantly, shifts energy use – run the robot as an intermediary. Ok enough.
The one glaring example of technology surpassing humans (though we have always used tools and brain power so what the surpassing means is moot – the plow, abacus, bomb? ) is the Finance Industry.
90s on: A Finance ‘industry’ developed to manipulate, hedge, outstmart, the various rules, transform status quo. As all the players had more or less the same information and knowledge they went into a virtual world where tiny advantages could afford great benefits – trading microseconds earlier, new quant equation, new products that reduce ‘risk’ etc. (Besides gathering inside info, creating new rules, exploiting loopholes, etc.) Hoping to ‘beat the band’ and acting in the casino in the cloud, a heady game which attracted many obsessive coke-charged players. The money raked in was enough to afford lobbyists, propaganda, etc. and ppl were blinded – bribed or dazzled by miraculous gains – or were powerless. Finance created its own world, outside of what some call prudence, the rule of law, morality, etc.
The use of computers, their automaticity, their speed, their instant calculation capacity, created this situation.
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 13 2011 16:11 utc | 22
Here is a link to a short film that puts the Wall Street protest and the hypocritical Obama administration together in a very interesting way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A