Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 29, 2011
TEPCO Doesn’t Get It

TEPCO, the Japanese regional power monopoly which managed to have its Daiichi nuclear plants ruined by an earthquake and tsunami, doesn’t get the political and social consequences of the catastrophe. It also seems to be slow to get a grip on the technical consequences and their remediation.That might all be somewhat understandable.

But what is not understandable is that it doesn’t even get its routine business.

The Daiichi plant number 5 was shut down in an normal automatic emergency “scram” when the earth quake hit. One of its emergency diesel generators survived the tsunami and cooling proceeded as planed. There was, if at all, only small damage to it.

But now we get this:

The seawater pump in the cooling system for the Fukushima power plant’s No. 5 reactor broke down Saturday evening, prompting repair crews to install a backup pump 15 hours later on Sunday afternoon, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said.

Tepco discovered the pump had stopped at 9 p.m. Saturday but didn’t announce it to the public until Sunday morning.

According to this chart the number 5 core, even though it was shut down six weeks ago, still produces some two megawatt of thermal decay heat. Without cooling the water surrounding the core will inevitably boil off and the core will melt which will likely lead to release of radioactive substances into the environment. Why, six weeks after the catastrophe, isn’t there a secondary cooling system for number 5?

By noon Sunday, the core had reached a temperature of 93.6 degrees

Why does it take fifteen hours to replace the seemingly only cooling pump that keeps the number 5 reactor from boiling off?

The Japanese government should immediately revoke the license for Tepco to run anything technical but a one liter tea water heater in its office. If it does not get the basics of operating an undamaged nuclear plant – safety through redundancy, defense in depth – how can it be trusted with running the emergency measures on the damaged reactors that still need to be done now?

Comments

b – who, in your opinion, would be qualified to operate the Daiichi plant?

Posted by: Jeremiah | May 29 2011 19:25 utc | 1

TEPCO Doesn’t Get It
I beg to differ, on the contrary, they know precisely what needs to be done and what is at stake. As well as the full impact into what they have wrought. They, like the BP ceo’s clan, are detached and indifferent and only regret any capital loss.
In short, Top View is given to as few as possible… while ‘Need-to-Know’ cover stories are given to as many as possible to drive the national/world social engines…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 29 2011 21:52 utc | 2

would be qualified to operate the Daiichi plant?
imo, no one. nuke plants are just too dangerous to operate on this planet. if we could build them on the moon and pipe the electricity back here, I could live with that.

Posted by: dan of steele | May 30 2011 8:01 utc | 3

@dan I am coming to the same conclusion. the risks involved in nuclear power generation appear to be unmanageable by ordinary humans, and since we have not yet evolved into godhood we ought to stop running with scissors.

Posted by: DeAnander | May 30 2011 8:30 utc | 4

Japan nuke plant workers likely exposed to radiation far beyond legal limit

TOKYO, May 30 (Xinhua) — Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) and the Japanese government officials said Monday that two of the utility firm’s employees who have been working at the crippled Fukushima No.1 nuclear power plant in northeast Japan may have been exposed to radiation exceeding the legal limit of 250 millisieverts.

according to the power company and government officials, the two workers who had their thyroid glands tested on May 23 had absorbed 7,690 and 9,760 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 — a level 10 times that of other workers tested.
The two men had been assigned to work details at the Nos. 3 and 4 reactors, which involved being inside the reactors’ control rooms as well as outside on the complex’s grounds.
The embattled utility firm said it plans to test 150 more workers who have been assigned similar work duties.

Posted by: b | May 30 2011 9:24 utc | 5

I dont pretend to understand the people who find it fashionable to object to nuclear power. Germany, one of the most advanced technological societies on earth, burns coal to produce nearly 44% of its power requirements, and gas to produce another 13%.
Nuclear power provided 23% in 2008 but is likely much lower now the government has ordered the shut-down of 12 plants. Instead, Germany will probably buy more electricity from French nuclear stations, and our government continue to masquerade as “Green”.
Yes, it is true that nuclear power has dangers, and I am a strong advocate of robust safety measures. Even so I find it strange that the same people who say that CO2 (from all that burning of carbon fuels) is going to kill us all, say that nuclear power is too dangerous.
How many people have died from nuclear power? How many would be at risk if every nuclear station in the world melted down overnight?
By way of stark contrast, how many would die if we ran out of oil?
How many have already died because certain people run around promoting the idea that we are already running out of oil?
The notion of relative levels of risk seems not to figure much in these kinds of “discussion” – just hysterical emoting and shrieking:
Aaarrgggh, turn it off! Turn it off!
I dont get it.

Posted by: ScuzzaMan | May 30 2011 10:54 utc | 6

@6

people who find it fashionable to object to nuclear power

nobody here follows fashions

“Aaarrgggh, turn it off! Turn it off!”

haven’t heard any screams on this site, just rational considerations open to objections;
read the archives, understand who you are talking to, then post again

How many people have died from nuclear power?

that’s precisely one of the main problems with nuclear power: no one really knows how many cancers and genetic defects are related to increasing contamination;
humankind has repeatedly recovered from wars, crisis or accidents resulting in a “countable” number of deaths; but swaths of territory rendered inhabitable for generations is a catastrophe of a different kind; many seem to be able to live with it, many others aren’t;
@DeAnander – I also changed opinion on nuclear power after Fukushima
if that’s what Japan had to show us, I’ll just say that I have no desire to see Italy, or the Us (remember New Orleans?), or any other country up against a similar crisis
insisting today on nuclear power after what we’ve witnessed, would be like deregulating the financial industry counting upon its sense of responsability and self-restraint …

Posted by: claudio | May 30 2011 12:26 utc | 7

claudio,
Interesting that you think my fashion comment applied to anyone in this thread, since that is hardly inherent in the comment itself. As for “this site” … well, I notice that the internet spans the entire globe and there is no practical barrier to anyone commenting here who may want to, so I dont know who you think you are speaking for. Nor, I suspect, do you.
Please take a step back and read my comment for what it actually says, and not what you’d like it to say.
As for “rendered uninhabitable for generations” I cannot accept that there is no emoting in that phrase. Nagasaki and Hiroshima are booming cities, and the towns in Chernobyls’s exclusion zone are rapidly “disappearing under overgrowth”.
I suggest that “no-one really knows” is not a particularly sound, or intelligent, basis for making public policy.
By contrast, it is relatively easy to trace the millions of dead due to wars over control of oil, starting before World War I and continuing to this day.
All I ask for is a little perspective.
And just by the by, while on the topic of war; France has – seemingly deliberately – recreated it’s famed Maginot Line in the form of a string of nuclear power stations along its eastern border with Germany (and not forgetting the north this time), making invasion by Germany far more risky and thus far less likely, and making the German people it’s customers. An interesting by-product of France’s 1974 commitment to nuclear power is that it acts as a very strong incentive to peace.
Squabbles over oil and coal reserves … not so much.

Posted by: ScuzzaMan | May 30 2011 13:59 utc | 8

not only do I think it is too dangerous to run a nuke plant, I strongly believe that it is much more expensive than other forms of energy when all the costs are factored in. I think (without a whole lot of ready proof) that we have nuclear energy because it is extremely profitable to those in business of selling it.
once we have fully exploited wind energy, solar energy, tidal energy, along with geothermal and forms of “green” energy….then and only then should we consider such a dangerous form of energy production.
I wonder if scuzzaman would change his mind if France were to suddenly experience a few nuclear “accidents”. I mean, how many times to you have to get burned before you move away from the hot surface? Chernobyl may not have meant much to you living far away but my wife was pregnant at the time of this disaster. seeing people in radiation suits washing down trucks coming from the east, hearing the German government tell us not to drink milk, hearing that children should not go out to play had a significant affect on me. I was living in Lower Saxony at the time and is quite far away from Chernobyl but we still had these warnings. to the south and in the path of the prevailing winds, things were a lot worse. for years afterward you could not eat pistachios from Turkey because they were radioactive.
and what to do with the waste.. would you keep the waste in your basement? if not, why not? where do you propose to put it? in my basement?
let’s explore the less profitable alternatives first. when none of those work out we can use this nuke stuff as a last gasp end of the world solution.

Posted by: dan of steele | May 30 2011 15:43 utc | 9

Cautiously for nuclear power. Not dead set against it anyway.
That is understandable, almost all the energy I personally use, 95 + %, is from nuclear power, hydraulics, and wood. (Switzerland.) I do take the bus, Mercedes top class runs on diesel for 5 kms to then get on a tram or trolley – electric, again. Many ppl live and feel the same.
Switzerland’s recent semi moratorium and willingness to exit nuclear power will be reversed as soon as there are brown-outs. The ‘economic’ community is up in arms, nuclear power is cheap and steady, they don’t want to give it up.
The problem rests with alternatives. None are acceptable.
CH could augment its hydraulic power stations, plenty of water and mountains, but that would involve massive flooding of valleys where ppl live and work, they grow food. Never fly.
Renewables, so called, in the form of solar and wind, could be upped, but with a very low EROI, massive investment by the tax payer, with all the difficulties often quoted – grid and intermittence, cost and care for solar panels, plus this ain’t quite the Sahara, and of course these in themselves do damage to environment. Will never be more than far, far under 10%… (Spain is the good ex. to look at for what happens when massive state investment goes to renewables. At the same time as a mad housing bubble…)
Geothermal, very popular here for now, is very expensive and requires constant maintenance and electricity to function. Plus, the latest exploratory drilling caused earthquakes and therefore was scrapped. One news article:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Geothermal_project_shakes_Basel_again.html?cid=46284
Importing coal and nat gas, which some pols are advocating, is a CO2 unfriendly solution, stupid, expensive, and exposes CH to greater energy dependence. (Energy dependence is 100% for oil, used mainly in transport but also for heating and in a few industrial processes.)
So besides green pie in the sky, there are no alternatives, or only desperate, foolish, ones. None suit, all are awful.
CH is not a special example, just one I know about. The conundrum can’t be solved. Nature is a bitch, the laws of physics can’t be cancelled, the state of the Earth can’t be changed by decree.

Posted by: Noirette | May 30 2011 16:15 utc | 10

I find this hard to believe, and a bit ambitious. Of course, powering down nuclear power plants is not the end of it, as we all know, or we should know. There’s the whole issue of what to do with all that spent, and unspent, nuclear fuel. Also, from what source is that power now to be derived? Filling the majority of that gap with coal is not ecologically tenable considering the environmental crisis currently confronting the planet, and I think it’s naive to believe that the gap can be filled by so-called “renewables.” I don’t know, maybe they have a significant population reduction event they’re not telling us about. That would cover the gap.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Germany-decides-to-abandon-apf-2013475929.html?x=0

Germany’s government said Monday it will shut down all the country’s nuclear power plants by 2022. The decision, prompted by Japan’s nuclear disaster, will make Germany the first major industrialized nation to go nuclear-free in years.
It also completes a remarkable about-face for Chancellor Angela Merkel’s center-right government, which only late last year pushed through a plan to extend the life span of the country’s 17 reactors — with the last scheduled to go offline around 2036.
But Merkel now says industrialized, technologically advanced Japan’s helplessness in the face of the Fukushima disaster made her rethink the risks of the technology.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | May 30 2011 17:25 utc | 11

TEPCO isn’t the only one b. I fear western civilization is plagued by many who still don’t.

Yes, it is true that nuclear power has dangers, and I am a strong advocate of robust safety measures.

Best Case
Don’t be confused by the smoke and mirrors: nuclear catastrophe is not simply the result of “Preventable Mistakes.” It wouldn’t matter if the Dalai Lama were the head of the NRC and the executives of Entergy Nuclear, Inc., were not millionaires who have lied on record, but rather the world’s most revered saints. The technology demands perfection, and humans are imperfect. Indian Point, Fitzpatrick, Nine-Mile Point, Vermont Yankee, Seabrook, Pilgrim, and 98 other nuclear power plants in the United States contain the possibility, every day, of becoming a Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, or Fukushima Daiichi. Even worse, a nuclear plant could be the target of a terrorist attack. Yet, those are only the worst possibilities. The constant and certain one is what we know will unfold: Even if all operating nuclear power plants were shut down tomorrow, an intergenerational project the likes of which humanity has never attempted is just beginning, as our children, and their children and theirs, will struggle to guard each of these sites from leakage, terrorism, and weathering for thousands of years.

The notion of relative levels of risk seems not to figure much in these kinds of “discussion”

Nuclear technology is surely humanity’s most enduring legacy. What of our works will be present on this planet in 5,000 years, in 20,000 years? To think we can manage a lethal material for hundreds of human generations successfully without error defines insanity. There will be more Three Mile Islands, more Fukushimas, more accidents, more design flaws, more cover-ups, more acts of God. The genie is out of the bottle, we must live with it now. We have been signed up, against our will (polls show that nuclear energy has never been supported by more than 30 percent to 40 percent of citizens in any nation) for an impossible task. At best we will contain the radioactivity we’ve produced to as few areas as possible, we will close the reactors down immediately, and we will rapidly develop bioremediation techniques for sopping up, isolating, and sequestering radioactivity. Radiation, like heavy metals, cannot be diffused or broken down; it is elemental. We must deflect it, isolate it, bind it, and let it “cool” in sequestered locations, which only long spans of time can do. Humanity must now engage in a space-race-scale mission to preserve the functional capacity of human chromosomal and cellular activity in the face of an increasingly radioactive home planet.
ScuzzaMan, do you regard these reports as

just hysterical emoting and shrieking:

or perhaps just plain lies.
EPA Finds Japan Nuclear Radiation In Milk ABOVE EPA Limits And In Drinking Water In 13 US Cities
Hawaii Farmers Treating Milk With Boron After Finding Radiation 2400 Times Above Safe Levels
Aaarrgggh, turn it off! Turn it off!
Please forgive me, I guess I’m just irrational emoting. But then again Fukushima is still very rationally emitting and increasing the Northern Hemisphere’s atmospheric concentration of radioactive isotopes which none of us have any choice but to breathe and ingest.
When I was younger and much more gullible I bought fully into the Nuclear industry’s claims of safety and “energy too cheap to meter” but as experience and my powers of discernment developed I realized that I had been buying into propaganda and disinformation campaigns. Edward Bernays (the father of modern public relations and propaganda) and fine tuning by the tobacco industry, perfected the telling of lies to the unsuspecting public at the expense of their well being and for the profit of unconscionable corporate managers and investors. Public Relations and Propaganda have become the daily faire of corporations seeking profit by selling their dangerous and lethal products to the ill-informed and unsuspecting.
My hope ScuzzaMan, is that you are either uninformed or naively misinformed and not a shill or dupe for the psychopaths foisting the abomination of nuclear Armageddon on us in return for short term profit.

Posted by: juannie | May 30 2011 17:28 utc | 12

@6, what irks me the most about the entire debate is that I have exactly zero say or influence in the matter that otherwise affects my destiny because the ramifications are globally pervasive at this point. I was born into an undemocratic system of power creation and consumption…..as were you, I presume. We didn’t have a say in it. It was foisted upon us ever so pragmatically…..inch by inch, day by day…..until one day, there was nothing left to relent, complete acquiescence through manufactured consent had been attained, and here we are arguing about a reality which no longer considers the objections from a few as obstacles to overcome. Full Spectrum Dominance in the form of Social Engineering is complete. Consent is now the default, and very little effort is required to steer The Masses towards the abyss.
We are going to run out of oil. There will be a large-scale nuclear meltdown across many plants, and many people will perish as a result of both. The planet cannot support this system with this many people. If the system is kept, the majority of the people must go. I don’t believe the system will be significantly abridged, and certainly not abandoned, therefore either the Plutocrats come up with a plan for depopulation, or all of us, including the Plutocrats, hit that wall together at the speed of insanity.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | May 30 2011 17:43 utc | 13

Here’s an excellent idea, and perfectly in keeping with our Western Culture, on what to do with all that spent, and unspent, nuclear fuel.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/happy-fun-ball/229058/

Posted by: Morocco Bama | May 30 2011 17:47 utc | 14

I’ll be happy with any nuclear plant if it has a full covering insurance without any public subsidies.
Ask Munich Re, Swiss Re or Berkshire Hathaway about that insurance price, add it to the plant, fuel and fuel garbage storage costs and let the free market sort it out. Whops, nuclear electricity generation suddenly gets very expensive.
There would NO commercial nuclear reactor without implicit public insurance, a not justifiable subsidy. The risk to create a very big mess and huge costs is just too high.

Posted by: b | May 30 2011 18:17 utc | 15

I’ll be happy with any nuclear plant if it has a full covering insurance without any public subsidies.
I wouldn’t even be “happy” with that, b. Look at AIG. It was a private insurance company who’s losses were ultimately abrogated by public funds. It was subsidized post hoc.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | May 30 2011 18:22 utc | 16

Ah, the old “you disagree so Bad People are paying you!” .. heaven forfend any rational person could come to a different conclusion.
Nope, nothing emotive in that accusation.
I honestly think that collecting widely dispersed radioactive materials into a concentrated mass sufficient to boil water (or melt steel) is probably not the best idea we’ve ever had. Indeed, I sincerely hope that the experience of the current generation of reactors leads to Thorium-based generation and a significant improvement in safety of nuclear power.
But in terms of energy density, safety, and the welfare of hundreds of millions of people who depend on that energy every day, I’m pretty happy with the progress of the industry thus far. If anything, I believe that we could have been even further down that path if not for the obstructive behaviour of various alarmist factions.
None of the above is to suggest that I have any truck with the industry itself – I have no connection with it other than as a domestic customer and a voter – nor with their standard corporate frauds and negligences.
But nor do I have much time for arguments based on a resolute refusal to separate the two.

Posted by: ScuzzaMan | May 30 2011 18:23 utc | 17

b;
As long as you apply that standard to every form of power generation, and not just the one you’re frightened of.

Posted by: ScuzzaMan | May 30 2011 18:36 utc | 18

None of the above is to suggest that I have any truck with the industry itself – I have no connection with it other than as a domestic customer and a voter – nor with their standard corporate frauds and negligences.

Well taking you at your word, I’m happy to know that. And admitting that my suspicion was an emotive suggestion I’d like to hear your refutation to the, by now, several rational arguments challenging the logic of support for the nuclear industry. Start with the insurance one. Without the Price Anderson Act can you really claim that nuclear industry in the US would ever have been developed. The industry itself said it wouldn’t proceed without it. I’m not familiar with other countries policies but I venture to claim it’s the same situation. And your last post is not such an argument. It is perhaps an entry point to thinking beyond our present civilization’s industrial/capitalistic paradigm.
Yes, MB.

We are going to run out of oil. There will be a large-scale nuclear meltdown across many plants, and many people will perish as a result of both. The planet cannot support this system with this many people. If the system is kept, the majority of the people must go. I don’t believe the system will be significantly abridged, and certainly not abandoned, therefore either the Plutocrats come up with a plan for depopulation, or all of us, including the Plutocrats, hit that wall together at the speed of insanity.

As I know you are aware, exponential growth is never sustainable in a world of finite resources. As with all other unsustainable historical cultures and empires that crashed when their consumption exceeded the carrying capacity of their environment, so too will modern civilization as we presently experience it, crash. Technological salvation is nothing but wishful thinking. The answers are pretty fucking obvious. Live within the ability of the “natural” world’s regenerative processes. Something that industrial civ’s hubris precludes. A shame, as a few of our species do have the intellectual potential to understand and transcend this travesty.

Posted by: juannie | May 30 2011 19:12 utc | 19

MB @16

Look at AIG. It was a private insurance company who’s losses were ultimately abrogated by public funds

yes, unfortunately this is the situation today; it’s impossible to have a “rational” discussion in this context, weighing pros and cons, etc; we are simply at an insufficient level of reliability of our ruling classes
but even if we were, we should consider the problem raised by juannie @12, that of what the future generations will do with sites, spent fuel, etc;
SM @17

I’m pretty happy with the progress of the industry thus far. If anything, I believe that we could have been even further down that path if not for the obstructive behaviour of various alarmist factions

that’s ludicrous; I’m sure research would have done miracles with alternative forms of energy, if just the nuclear lobby wouldn’t have obstructed
SM @8

I suggest that “no-one really knows” is not a particularly sound, or intelligent, basis for making public policy

I think that knowing what you’re getting into before taking substantially irreversible decicisions is very sound public policy

Posted by: claudio | May 31 2011 1:24 utc | 20

@8 – France has – seemingly deliberately – recreated it’s famed Maginot Line in the form of a string of nuclear power stations along its eastern border with Germany (and not forgetting the north this time), making invasion by Germany far more risky and thus far less likely, and making the German people it’s customers.
As I have seen that fantasy twice in 24 hours it needs some debunking.
France has some 56 nuclear reactors in 19 different locations. There are two locations near the German border, Fessenheim with two reactors and Cattenom with four. Chooz near the Belgium border has another two reactors.
6/8 out of 56 reactors at 2/3 out of 19 locations does not make a Magniot line. The concentration of French reactors near the Swiss border is much bigger. To suggest that the locations were chosen as a defense line is stupid fantasy.
Any reactor is a liability in case of a war. For example, because of typically north-western wind, any serious attack on La Hague would render the north of France, including Paris inhabitable. 60 cruse missiles can take out 80% of France energy production. From a strategic defense point of view, nuclear plants are a serious liability, not an advantage.

Posted by: b | May 31 2011 6:43 utc | 21

For nuclear power in Germany, it seems the Hindenburg moment has arrived. Good. Frau Dr. Merkel’s scientific background probably contributed to this wise (in my opinion) decision.
With regard to the number of people on the planet, it is not yet clear if we will have a mostly gradual decline (“glide path”) or sharp stepwise decrements (“collapse”), but energy and raw material throughputs would seem necessarily to decline in the foreseeable future, and population cannot exceed food supply for very long. We will see what happens for the rest of our days, however many those are in any particular case. But the example of the reindeer on St. Matthew Island should serve as a cautionary tale – those who have ears should listen. Comic book version:
http://www.recombinantrecords.net/images/2011-02-St-Matthew-Island.pdf
More details:
phsgirard.org/Biology/Ecology/DeerPopulationStudyStMatthewIsland.pdf

Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. | May 31 2011 14:41 utc | 22

Where to start?
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html shows the location of French nuclear stations. Make up your own mind. France’s post-Oil Shock commitment to nuclear power was probably spurred by two things: the desire to be self-reliant in weapons production and in energy production.
As far as insurance, my point was that, for example, most hydro stations around the world have been built with public money. Are/Were they “fully insured”? Never. Does “b” know? Care? Hardly.
Every single wind farm has been built with public subsidies. Are they “fully insured”? Does anyone here even know what that means? Or care? Hardly.
Just another plausible-sounding objection that buttresses the appearance of some kind of rational argument, but really exists only to reinforce the predisposition.
As far as Germany goes, the recent announcement basically says that “We will retire our reactors as they get old” … Big deal. The noise is just the politicians making hay while the sun shines, taking credit for something that was going to happen anyway.
Never let a good crisis go to waste” – right?
In the meantime, the same government that pretends to an overwhelming concern about an apparently species-threatening surge in CO2 poisoning, is raising Germany’s reliance on burning coal (already over 40%) and the purchase of electricity from French nuclear reactors, thus obliging Germans to further subsidise the very industry the German government claims to be concerned about.
But yeah, let’s all celebrate …

Posted by: ScuzzaMan | May 31 2011 20:41 utc | 23

Repeat. There is no safe level of radiation exposure.
Japan’s nuclear contamination spreads to more U.S. states

radiation from Japan’s Fukushima nuclear plant incident have been detected in a widening number of U.S. states, but the Environmental Protection Agency reaffirmed this week that the levels represent no threat to public health.
“To date, data from EPA’s real-time radiation air monitoring networks continue to show typical fluctuations in background radiation levels,” Jonathan Edwards, director of the EPA’s Radiation Protection Division, said in a statement Monday. “The levels we are seeing are far below any levels of concern.”
At least 15 states reported detecting radioisotopes in air or water or both. No states have recommended that residents take potassium iodide, a salt that protects the thyroid gland from radioactive iodine.

It’s always worse than they say it is…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 31 2011 21:48 utc | 24

@23

Where to start? http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html shows the location of French nuclear stations. Make up your own mind.

the map speaks for itself, so why not start admitting you were clearly wrong on this one?
generally speaking, I think your style of arguing is uselessly irritating; there are posters here that have different positions on nuclear power as on every other matter, and there’s no need to continuously insinuate that the others’ arguments are biased or made in bad faith
the problem of insurance (and clean-up costs) for nuclear reactors is quite obvious; windmills don’t pose that problem, and this is precisely part of the argument;
as far as building nuclear reactors with public money, I wouldn’t object to that, provided I could be convinced they are safe; what’s the problem? in fact, I’d feel safer with nuclear reactors in public hands (not military, of course): less to hide, less financial considerations interfering on security

Posted by: claudio | May 31 2011 22:27 utc | 25

@mistah charlie For nuclear power in Germany, it seems the Hindenburg moment has arrived. Good. Frau Dr. Merkel’s scientific background probably contributed to this wise (in my opinion) decision.
1. Merkel’s decision is not to let some existing reactors run longer than planned and to build no new ones (which would be impossible anyway). She only sells this as an exit from nukes.
2. The only reason why she did this is to kill the Green Party (which deserves to be killed). The Greens here are largely conservative like Merkel’s CDU but have one advantage over the CDU. They have for decades been consistent on one point (and only this one point) which is to end nuclear energy. If Merkel takes that point away from them the Greens have no more advantages (but some disadvantages) and the CDU can drag the Green voters back to itself.

Posted by: b | Jun 1 2011 11:57 utc | 26

Where to start?
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html shows the location of French nuclear stations. Make up your own mind.

It is obvious from that map that France is fearing an invasion at Calais.
Does “b” know? Care? Hardly.
I know very well how hydro power stations get financed and insured. Windfarms here are also insured but the insurance premium is pretty low as a breaking windenergy turbine will create only very little damage. The damage a melting down nuclear plant can do is in the range of hundreds of billion dollars. In Daiichi the current estimates range around $350 billions. That is not insurable which is the point. A nuclear plant a priory privatizes profits but socializes a huge risk. If it wasn’t for that nuclear energy would not be an economical viable form of energy.

Posted by: b | Jun 1 2011 12:06 utc | 27

@ #17–
Shills are a fact of life. Take offense or not–as you like!
Your arguments seem more smoke than light. Problems with externalities–bad side effects–exist with every energy technology. With nuclear power the side effects have the special property of be invisible–hence insidious–and the unique properties of being unremediable and persisting for millennia to tens of millennia.
It does not help that promoters of nuclear power have lied from the outset of the industry. And no, this is not my opinion, this is fact: There is a long trail of documentation.
Separately, we should note Malooga’s point from the other thread, that nuclear plants have no off switch: Cold shut-down is not really a shut-down because large amounts of electric power from some external source are required indefinitely after shut-down to keep the plant from burning and melting down.
This represents a pretty blatant and amazing industrial design flaw–and it is inherent to the industry.

Posted by: Gaianne | Jun 1 2011 19:13 utc | 28

Steam, high radiation detected at No.1 reactor

The operator of the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant says steam was observed coming out of the floor of the No.1 reactor building, and extremely high radiation was detected in the vicinity.
Tokyo Electric Power Company inspected the inside of the No.1 reactor building on Friday with a remote-controlled robot.
TEPCO said it found that steam was rising from a crevice in the floor, and that extremely high radiation of 3,000 to 4,000 millisieverts per hour was measured around the area. The radiation is believed to be the highest detected in the air at the plant.
TEPCO says the steam is likely coming from water at a temperature of 50 degrees Celsius that has accumulated in the basement of the reactor building.

Is the molten core in the basement?

Posted by: b | Jun 4 2011 11:20 utc | 29

The video http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110604_09.zip shows boiling water in the basement of no 1.

Posted by: b | Jun 4 2011 11:34 utc | 30

Fukushima Reactor No. 1 more radioactive than ever (Raw Story)

…radiation levels in the air around Reactor 1 were at 4000 millisieverts per hour…

WTF?!?

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Jun 5 2011 4:46 utc | 31

@Yueh
Yes, I have been wondering that myself. Random reports still coming in about intermittent recriticality; reports that the “hot” water reservoir is close to overflow; reports that No. 3 is close to complete loss of containment.
It’s hard to know what to believe, except that I’m pretty sure I don’t believe TEPCO press releases or the official government statements. I am not sure I believe Gundersen… I certainly don’t believe IAEA, any more than I would believe Hill & Knowlton — on anything whatsoever. NISA’s pants seem to be constantly smouldering. NRC, don’t make me laugh.
What we have here is a crisis of authenticity: there seem to be no trustworthy information sources. I’m still waiting for George Monbiot to backpedal…

Posted by: DeAnander | Jun 6 2011 7:57 utc | 32

Note: Headline hiding the real issue.
No.1 reactor vessel damaged 5 hours after quake

Japan’s nuclear regulator says the meltdown at one of the Fukushima reactors came about 5 hours after the March 11th earthquake, 10 hours earlier than initially estimated by the plant’s operator.

The agency says the total amount of radioactive iodine 131 and cesium 137 released from the Numbers 1, 2 and 3 reactors for the 6 days from March 11th is estimated at 770,000 terabecquerels.
That is about twice the figure mentioned in April when the agency upgraded the severity of the accident to the highest level of 7 on an international scale.

Posted by: b | Jun 6 2011 19:02 utc | 33

And I guess we don’t know half of the truth yet.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 6 2011 21:09 utc | 34

While the internet appears to be ephemeral it can in reality provide a trace, and we can use this trace to assess exactly what we were being told by the BBC. On 14 March BBC churnalists were reporting the view of ‘international nuclear watchdogs’ (presumably the IAEA) that there was no sign of a meltdown, balanced by the comment of an unnamed minister that the ‘melting of rods’ was ‘highly likely’. On 27 March the BBC reported that workers were ‘trying to cool the reactor core to avoid a meltdown’ at a time when we now know that three meltdowns had already occurred. Perhaps strangest of all was the constant repetition of the bizarre phrase ‘partial meltdown’, as though nuclear fuel could somehow resemble a chocolate fondant pudding.

footnote
Another casualty of Fukushima: many people’s faith (even if it was a bit sketchy already) in official and semi-official news sources. This loss of trust is bad, bad, bad. It opens the door to all kinds of conspiracy theorists and fabulists who seem all the more believable because of our cynical certainty that the “respectable” sources are lying. When the only truthful accounts are coming from the fringes, then the fringe as a whole suddenly gets a reputability that not all of it merits… Gresham’s Law applying again, this time to information. And then there’s the double game, the cointelpro ops which push obviously whacko memes out into the fringe spaces deliberately to discredit all fringe news sources…
Gawd, my own species makes me *tired*. I’ve just about had enough of us.

Posted by: DeAnander | Jun 7 2011 4:32 utc | 35

In todays news: melt trough ?
Yomiuri reports: ‘Melt-through’ at Fukushima? / Govt report to IAEA suggests situation worse than meltdown. This is also noted in the grauniad Fukushima nuclear plant may have suffered ‘melt-through’, Japan admits.

Posted by: philippe | Jun 8 2011 8:41 utc | 36

Core on the floor.
Ugh.

Posted by: DeAnander | Jun 9 2011 6:49 utc | 37