Can’t fathom why they keep messing with this instead of using the Chernobyl solution. I guess the real question would be, can humanity learn from this, and ramp down plans for more reactors?
Thanks for the update b.

Posted by: ben | Apr 15 2011 14:53 utc | 3

I think the reasoning behind “no sarcophagus” is that the cores are still too hot to encase in concrete: the heat would build up and crack (or worse, explode) the concrete shell.
It is yet too early for a sarcophagus. First must be the cooling like they did in Chernobyl. The sarcophagus comes later.
Cracking up concrete while cooling would not be necessarily bad. Fill the reactor vessel, the dry well (primary containment) and the area around the suppression/condensation torus with the “slurry” and you will have direct heat transmission from the hot fuel to the outer building and ground. The building would then get hot over time and the fuel would cool -> convection cooling. Looking at the dimensions the outer temperature would probably get up to 100 degree celsius. Nothing dangerous for any concrete. In the interior some walls would probably crack a bit, but that would not matter as the “slurry” would by then be dry and hold everything in place.
As for explosions – possible, but it is now possible too.

Posted by: b | Apr 15 2011 16:45 utc | 5

b,
I think you posted a link sometime back on German designed and built robots that were being sent to Japan to help at the Daiichi reactors. You mention that:

radiated water is preventing access to the equipment that would be needed to restore the regular closed cooling loops. To install new improvised cooling loops one would need access to areas with very high radiation.

Could these robots be used in this case and if so why isn’t this being considered or discussed?
Also, I seem to remember that there was a difference in this case and the Chernobyl solution that might preclude the a slurry of sand/boron/lead solution because the meltdown has fused the fuel rods into a single mass that will keep them in a critical state and generate enough heat to eventually melt down to ground water level. If this is true then the robot solution for rebuilding a closed loop cooling system would seem to be a step in the right direction.
I see you’ve partially answered this in your #5 post.
De,
regarding the pro nuke loby, Helen Caldicott says they possess pathological brainstems. I would venture psycho-pathological.

There’s a fear down her we can’t forget,
Hasn’t got a name just yet,
Always awake,
Always around
Singing ashes to ashes all fall down.
…
Commissars and pin-stripe bosses
Roll the dice.
Any way they fall,
Guess who gets to pay the price.
…
If the game is lost,
Then we’re all the same.
No one left to place or take the blame.
We can leave this place and empty stone
Or that shinin’ ball we used to call our home.

“Throwing Stones”
Words by John Perry Barlow; music by Bob Weir
Grateful Dead 1987:
played with a creative but disturbing video, but not the best of Garcia:

Posted by: juannie | Apr 15 2011 17:39 utc | 7

@Juannie
The robots can not work under water but can work in standing water to at least 1 meter high. I can not understand why they are not used. They certainly could be doing at least some stuff like adding instrumentation and looking for leaks to get a clearer picture of the situation.
I do not fear a melting through, which was danger earlier, anymore. Also: Kyodo news agency

Meanwhile, the Atomic Energy Society of Japan said it believes that nuclear fuel inside troubled reactors at the plant has partially melted and settled in granular form at the bottom of pressure vessels.
But the academic body’s panel on nuclear energy safety has said data suggest the melted fuel at the plant’s damaged Nos. 1 to 3 reactors has been kept at a relatively low temperature.
The panel also said that the fuel grains with a diameter of between several millimeters and 1 centimeter are believed to have settled evenly at the bottom of the vessels, leaving almost no possibility of a nuclear chain reaction called ”recriticality.”
A large buildup of melted nuclear fuel could transform into a molten mass so hot that it could damage the critical containers and eventually leak huge amounts of radioactive materials.

That goes for the reactors and MAY be correct. But there is also a lot of salt in the reactor vessels (about some 25 tons each) which may prevent direct cooling of the fuel. On recriticality I am wondering more about the fuel in the spent fuel pools.
Anyway – the water problem increases by several hundred tons each day transporting radioactivity into the environment and I see no way of handling that much contaminated water within any decent time frame.

Posted by: b | Apr 15 2011 17:52 utc | 9

the only other reference I found (haven’t looked that hard, I admit) to what b said some time ago (can’t find the reference) that adding water to the molten fuel at the bottom of the reactor would ignite local criticalities; it’s by Arnie Gundersen, who explains everything so clearly, but sort of glides over this critical (!) aspect; without b’s previous post, I wouldn’t have caught it;

Posted by: claudio | Apr 15 2011 21:21 utc | 11

with a “k” my friend r’; and I ditto that.
And as dark as I am also, I am grateful that if the soul is what ultimately counts, there is plenty of that here along with that particularly human characteristics, shared credible information. I’m feeli’n kind of fatalistic right now but still have hope that “that shinin’ ball we used to call our home” can finally manifest, after we, humanity, learn from this juncture and takes the bifurcation into a intelligent species. Here’s hopei’n.

Posted by: juannie | Apr 15 2011 21:39 utc | 13

The Radium Girls

From 1917 to 1926, U.S. Radium Corporation, originally called the Radium Luminous Material Corporation, was engaged in the extraction and purification of radium from carnotite ore to produce luminous paints, which were marketed under the brand name ‘Undark’. As a defense contractor, U.S. Radium was a major supplier of radioluminescent watches to the military. Their plant in New Jersey employed over a hundred workers, mainly women, to paint radium-lit watch faces and instruments, believing it to be safe.
The U.S. Radium Corporation hired some 70 women to perform various tasks including the handling of radium, while the owners and the scientists familiar with the effects of radium carefully avoided any exposure to it themselves; chemists at the plant used lead screens, masks and tongs. US Radium had even distributed literature to the medical community describing the “injurious effects” of radium. The owners and scientists at US Radium, familiar with the real hazards of radioactivity, naturally took extensive precautions to protect themselves. [1].
An estimated 4,000 workers were hired by corporations in the U.S. and Canada to paint watch faces with radium. They mixed glue, water and radium powder, and then used camel hair brushes to apply the glowing paint onto dials. The then-current rate of pay, for painting 250 dials a day, was about a penny and a half per dial. The brushes would lose shape after a few strokes, so the U.S. Radium supervisors encouraged their workers to point the brushes with their lips, or use their tongues to keep them sharp. For fun, the Radium Girls painted their nails, teeth and faces with the deadly paint produced at the factory.[2] Many of the workers became sick. It is unknown how many died from exposure to radiation. The factory sites became Superfund cleanup sites.
Many of the women later began to suffer from anemia, bone fractures and necrosis of the jaw, a condition now known as radium jaw. It is thought that the X-ray machines used by the medical investigators may have contributed to some of the sickened workers’ ill-health by subjecting them to additional radiation. It turned out at least one of the examinations was a ruse, part of a campaign of disinformation started by the defense contractor.[1] U.S. Radium and other watch-dial companies rejected claims that the afflicted workers were suffering from exposure to radium. For some time, doctors, dentists, and researchers complied with requests from the companies not to release their data. At the urging of the companies, worker deaths were attributed by medical professionals to other causes; syphilis was often cited in attempts to smear the reputations of the women. One of the workers, Peg Loone, died from radiation poisoning at the age of 24.

Just a reminder of why it’s so hard to believe authorities who keep assuring us that only 43 people died as a result of Chernobyl, etc. Where culpability and the exposure of real risk factors might lead to diminished profits, there is a strong motive to cover up, delay, confuse, minimise, ridicule, etc.
I was taught about this incident in (US) school. But the official story that we were taught was that “back then people didn’t know any better” — and the implication was that the benevolent corporations all voluntarily established worker safety standards as soon as scientific knowledge advanced far enough for the risks to be understood. I don’t recollect any teaching about the lawsuit, the disinformation, the coercion/bribery of medical professionals, or the measures which the owners/managers/technocrats took to protect themselves while knowingly exposing the workers to the lethal substance.
Of course USRC was a “defence contractor”…
I say again: board of directors, supportive politicians and upper management should be required to live w/in the 5km radius of a nuke plant; sp should upper mgmt of banks financing plant construction. If they are not willing to live there, with their families, then they should not be telling the rest of us the plant is safe…

Posted by: DeAnander | Apr 16 2011 3:32 utc | 15

Well TEPCO agrees with my “TEPCO urgently needs to come up with a different cooling strategy.” and will install new cooling systems with new heat exchangers: TEPCO finalizes plan to cool down reactors

To best deal with the present circumstances, TEPCO plans to first pump contaminated wastewater outside the turbine buildings where it can be more safely cooled and filtered. Radioactive substances and salt are removed and a continuous supply of treated water is circulated to gradually cool down the reactors.
TEPCO is scheduled to start operating the new cooling system by summer.

Reread the last sentence. Some six hundred tons of newly radiated water are currently produced and somehow released per day. A partly solution for that will be installed (or not) “by summer”. Hmm – I am likely not the only one who is not satisfied with that.

Posted by: b | Apr 17 2011 3:34 utc | 17

I suspect the 150,000+ evacuees are under not much illusion that they’ll be able t return home anytime soon. The other day, Kan Naoto (prime minister) was being honest and remarked that the area might be dangerous for up to 20 years. He got lots of criticism from all sides – mostly government/opposition/decision makers/energy sector/…
Subtext: please don’t broadcast that that whole nuclear business is actually far from safe, ‘we’ – and that includes the world wide nuke business – still need to sell that stuff.
A friend remarked that the game now seem to be: find a way to pay the victims all about 1 million Yen lump sum, plus something for home owners / land owners and then ship them all off to some other areas (after eventually returning to their house(s) to gather their belongings). There will some negotiations (estimate: 6months), all will be settled and the area will be closed off. 15 years ago the whole thing would have been much worse for the evacuees…
—-
On an unrelated note, the world media makes a huge issue of the radiation coming out of Fukushima. I don’t see much about Depleted Uranium that is so widely used in (heavy) weapons used around the world (in combat and in training, in Southern Okinawa there is an island that was used as training ground by the us little soldiers. it is almost inhabitable now).

Posted by: Philippe | Apr 17 2011 10:01 utc | 19

“Tepco needs to be removed’, Dr. Michio Kaku – Fukishima Daiichi Nuclear Facility

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Apr 17 2011 22:12 utc | 21

@U$ #21, maybe this is the link:

Posted by: claudio | Apr 18 2011 6:30 utc | 23

Repost: Geiger counters ineffective for checking food, water
Radiation factors hard to gauge; experts say rely on official data
yes, claudio that’s the link.. sorry.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Apr 18 2011 7:04 utc | 25

I think Michio Kaku’s solution of bringing in the army (what army?) is the dumbest and most irresponsible thing I’ve heard from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable. There are times when Democracy Now can be so clueless. Complaints may be abound about Tepco and its subcontractors, but at least they do have some clue as to how to hook up power and plumbing. Bringing in soldiers (what to die?) is not the answer.

Posted by: YY | Apr 18 2011 12:43 utc | 27

I’d rather have the brave and fearless military sacrificed to the to the God that is Nuclear than murdering innocent children, women, men and puppies in every corner of the world. Let’s see how brave they are now.
As a caveat, I don’t subscribe to the concept of bravery and heroism, I was merely utilizing their own concept against them. According to their concept, they are neither brave, nor are they heroes.
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/43462/9fb16ab3/us_soldaat_gooit_puppy.html
Yeah, I know they do, and have done much worse, but anyone who does this, is capable of any number of heinous, sadistic acts.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Apr 18 2011 13:45 utc | 29

There are now 67,000 tons of water in those basements and tunnels. Water is also again coming up in block 5 and 6 where it should not. Tepco says “possible groundwater” but how could that be? Are their cracks in the basements?
450 tons of water was moved yesterday to a central cleaning facility. That is about as much as was added over the day.

Posted by: b | Apr 20 2011 12:12 utc | 31

Agency admits ‘melting’ of N-fuel

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Apr 20 2011 14:16 utc | 33

Radiation Experts: Radiation Standards Are Up to 1,000 Higher Than Is Safe for the Human Body
European Committee on Radiation Risk [pdf]

Radioactivity from the Fukushima Catastrophe is now reaching centres of population
like Tokyo and will appear in the USA.[*]
Authorities are downplaying the risk on the
basis of absorbed dose levels using the dose coefficients of the International
Commission on Radiological Protection the ICRP. These dose coefficients and the
ICRP radiation risk model are unsafe for this purpose. This is clear from hundreds of
research studies of the Chernobyl accident outcomes. It has also been conceded by the
editor of the ICRP risk model, Dr Jack Valentin, in a discussion with Chris Busby in
Stockholm, Sweden in April 2009. Valentin specifically stated in a videoed interview
(available on http://www.llrc.org and vimeo.com) that the ICRP model could not be used to
advise politicians of the health consequences of a nuclear release like the one from
Fukushima. Valentin agreed that for certain internal exposures the risk model was
insecure by 2 orders of magnitude. The CERRIE committee stated that the range of
insecurity was between 10 and members of the committee put the error at nearer to
1000, a factor which would be necessary to explain the nuclear site child leukemia
clusters. The ECRR risk model was developed for situations like Fukushima.
Since the ECRR 2003 Radiation Risk Model, updated in 2010, was developed for jus
this situation it can be employed to assess the risk in terms of cancer and other ill
health. See http://www.euradcom.org. It has been checked against many situations where
the public has been exposed to internal radioactivity and shown to be accurate.
Using the ECRR 2010 radiation risk model the following guide to the health effects o
exposure can be employed.
Take the dose which is published by the Japanese authorities. Multiply it by 600. This
is the approximate ECRR dose for the mixture of internal radionuclides released from
Fukushima. Then multiply this number by 0.1. This is the ECRR 2010 cancer risk.

[*]Note the date March 19th 2011
That was based on data then. This slow holocaust has continued and now, according to Energy News
as well as admitted fuel melt, the Fukushima Forecast: Series of radiation clouds to hit US West Coast beginning April 24 (VIDEO)
Not to mention, they are already finding Cesium-137 in the Sierra Nevada mountains
The accumulation continues, that in and of itself as well as rain desperasl plays a deadly role and factor in where the “Hot Spots” are going to end up; perhaps the whole country?

Good morning, This is your Weatherman, 2nd Generation Half blob, with your morning Fallout report for Wedsday, April 2074 and the Japan fallout is with us today Falling at 26 Bq/kg the last 24 hours but much better then yesterday, Census report show there are one hundred and four of us left ! and tomorrow weather wi….

~xdrfox

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Apr 21 2011 12:30 utc | 35

This is not anecdotal, but rather highly indicative.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/15/us-morgan-stanley-real-estate-idUSTRE73E63E20110415

Morgan Stanley fund fails to repay debt on Tokyo property
(Reuters) – A Morgan Stanley property fund failed to make $3.3 billion in debt payments by a deadline on Friday, handing over the keys to a central Tokyo office building to Blackstone (BX.N) and other investors, the largest repayment failure of its kind in Japan…..

It mentions nothing about the unfolding nuclear catastrophe and the effect that had on its decision to renege on its obligation.

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Apr 21 2011 15:09 utc | 37