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February 28, 2011
Open Thread – Feb 28
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Thank goodness for a new thread. The last one left me with the feeling that we were heeding towards the same conditions that arose before b last shut down the Moon. There has since the Moon’s inception been a cadre of posters who were polite and not deliberately confrontational. Not necessarily always in agreement but respectful of others opinions. During the Iranian debate it became apparent that some were trying to impose their opinions on the group, and then when not accepted by the vast majority, continuing anyway in a seemingly purposively disruptive manner. One characteristic of those disruptive posters was a plethora of posts and often sequentially. We’ve just experienced a similar thread. It is indeed disheartening. There appears to be not just an agenda but a deliberate purpose to foment.
If new posters here don’t like the thoughts and opinions of those who have been here for years then don’t stay. You may be absolutely correct and everyone else wrong but staying around and continuing to disrupt the conversations of others only exposes you as a troll and/or an agent provocateur. If you’re obviously not wanted and stay anyway, what other motive could we rationally expect.
Posted by: juannie | Feb 28 2011 18:29 utc | 2
tariq ali – kiernan obituary
“Merchant capital, usurer capital, have been ubiquitous, but they have not by themselves brought about any decisive alteration of the world. It is industrial capital that has led to revolutionary change, and been the highroad to a scientific technology that has transformed agriculture as well as industry, society as well as economy. Industrial capitalism peeped out here and there before the nineteenth century, but on any considerable scale it seems to have been rejected like an alien graft, as something too unnatural to spread far. It has been a strange aberration on the human path, an abrupt mutation. Forces outside economic life were needed to establish it; only very complex, exceptional conditions could engender, or keep alive, the entrepreneurial spirit. There have always been much easier ways of making money than long-term industrial investment, the hard grind of running a factory. J.P. Morgan preferred to sit in a back parlour on Wall Street smoking cigars and playing solitaire, while money flowed towards him. The English, first to discover the industrial highroad, were soon deserting it for similar parlours in the City, or looking for byways, short cuts and colonial Eldorados.”
victor kiernan
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 28 2011 18:36 utc | 3
There appears to be not just an agenda but a deliberate purpose to foment.
of course juannie. i think the point is to ruin the blog so it discourages people from coming back. i know who’s doing this. it’s not hard to follow the source if the iran drumbeat. moon was always attacked before (ie b’s prescience wrt the georgia/south ossetia narrative, mumbia, baluchistan etc etc) but where it really went off the rails was Some Dots You May Want To Connect and other threads the day after the election.
by the time b published this link on 6/17 it was all out war.
Were these legitimate Iranian people or the works of a propaganda machine? I became curious and decided to investigate the origins of the information. In doing so, I narrowed it down to a handful of people who have accounted for 30,000 Iran related tweets in the past few days. Each of them had some striking similarities –
1. They each created their twitter accounts on Saturday June 13th.
2. Each had extremely high number of Tweets since creating their profiles.
3. “IranElection” was each of their most popular keyword
4. With some very small exceptions, each were posting in ENGLISH.
5. Half of them had the exact same profile photo
6. Each had thousands of followers, with only a few friends. Most of their friends were EACH OTHER.
so i know why they want to damage the blog.
Posted by: annie | Feb 28 2011 18:55 utc | 4
r’giap The real threat to Venezuelan democracy, as across Latin America and the Arab world, comes from the US Empire.
yep
Posted by: annie | Feb 28 2011 19:09 utc | 6
uring the Iranian debate it became apparent that some were trying to impose their opinions on the group
It doesn’t surprise me some people prefer to hear echoes of their own voice. Kind of fucking dull, if you ask me.
Posted by: slothrop | Feb 28 2011 19:10 utc | 7
remembereringgiap,
What is really happening in the United States yet it is not reported in the media or even many of the blogs you’ve cited?
A cabal of Union Busting Billionaires has staged a coup and is taken over US Federal Government.
Need Proof:
1) The Wisconsin Governor and Union protests in Madison,
2) House Republican Budget cuts that will cost 700,000 jobs when real jobless rate is already 17% in the USA, and
3) Three years after the financial crisis caused by fraud, not a single financial executive has gone to jail.
Just an American problem! Think again, the Billionaires are Multi-National. That is why the Egyptian Revolution feels like ours too.
Posted by: VietnamVet | Feb 28 2011 19:27 utc | 8
vietnam vet
you are quite right to point this out – that th accelerating concentration of wealth within the empire has necessarily meant a continuing war of agression against the underclass & the working poor. for some time now though that acceleration has demanded a full scale attack on the working & middle classes – they are beginning to feel the boot of capital in the most brutal way
what are people fighting for elsewhere – food, housing , education & health & in those united states they will not guarantee that for its own citizens & not only that but drawing the noose tighter & tighter around the necks of those who might defend those people
an empire attacking its own citizens is not new – the british & the french did it, when the time came – the elites want only to save their own skin & increase their own fortunes
what is new however, i think that at the heart of u s imperialism there are elites who don’t think twice of carrying out parallel wars on the ‘other’ & also on their own people, simultaneously. it is partly necessary for them to conduct their wars of agression to disinherit their own people
what is new too is the numbers, as you know – three million vietnamese were murdered in that illegal war & the onslaughter since then has been almost orgiastic. criminality was one aspect of other empires – with u s imperialism, criminality is absolutely central to the enterprise(the parallel with the mad king leopold of belgium in the congo is similar in that criminality was central to that enterprise)
leopold
you are absolutely right to point out the criminality of this empire to its own citizens
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 28 2011 19:53 utc | 9
Kind of fucking dull, if you ask me.
Then why don’t you take your brilliance to somewhere it will be appreciated sloth. No one is holding you around here except you. Or maybe your handlers and paycheck? Your hanging around has some reason and it isn’t that you like our company.
Posted by: juannie | Feb 28 2011 19:56 utc | 10
It doesn’t surprise me some people prefer to hear echoes of their own voice.
you getting sick of brian too?
Posted by: annie | Feb 28 2011 20:04 utc | 11
AJE retracted on the news about a weapons depot bombed in Adjabiya. They quote ‘several agencies’ as the source of the news. But Evan Hill, in the zone, confirms there was no bombinb.
Ummm … someone really trying hard to get that no-fly zone? There are multiple quotes from the rebel army officials asking for at least keeping Gaddafi air assets on land. Though some would prefer the help from Arab air forces (basically meaning Egypt).
9:31pm
Fathi Abidy, a member of a security council set up by the temporary administration in Benghazi, says two military aircraft circled around the city Adjabiya earlier today, but did not carry out an airstrike (as had earlier been reported by several agencies).
Al Jazeera’s online producer Evan Hill, who was in the area, said that initial investigations had revealed no evidence of an airstrike, though people at a checkpoint he passed through did fire off several anti-aircraft rounds into the air, apparently for his and other journalists’ benefit.
Posted by: ThePaper | Feb 28 2011 20:46 utc | 13
You’re a dick, juannie.
dick (private detective): someone who is paid to follow people secretly or to find out information about their lives
I’d say you’re projecting sloth. Or maybe I am inadvertently by detecting you for just what you are.
Posted by: juannie | Feb 28 2011 20:48 utc | 14
mézàros
The final chapter of the book, “Method in a Historical Epoch of Transition” is more original and refreshing. Mészáros is adamant and uncompromising in his insistence that capitalism is in its descending phase, witnessed by increased military and political intervention to secure its ends, by the unsustainable and contradictory combination of excessive production, human degradation and starvation, unsurpassed waste and destruction, by the increasingly serious results of environmental devastation, by the reduction of the values of liberty, fraternity, democracy, and equality to cynical falsifications justifying military and imperial interventions. The system is coming apart at the seams.
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 28 2011 21:50 utc | 16
Neither David Harvey nor mezaros would agree with your breathlesly binary division of the world into “empire” and everybody else. really disingenuous by linking your nutty ideas to David Harvey, in particular.
Posted by: slothrop | Feb 28 2011 22:25 utc | 17
Neither David Harvey nor mezaros would agree with your breathlesly binary division of the world into “empire” and everybody else. really disingenuous by linking your nutty ideas to David Harvey, in particular.
Posted by: slothrop | Feb 28 2011 22:25 utc | 18
remembereringgiap,
thanks for link to mézàros… interesting
Posted by: crone | Feb 28 2011 22:26 utc | 19
remembereringgiap,
thanks for link to mézàros… interesting
Posted by: crone | Feb 28 2011 22:26 utc | 20
pawns of empire
u s destabilisation of cuba
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 28 2011 22:38 utc | 21
yeah, the war against the poor and alleged “middle class” is certainly ramping up in the states.
in montana we’ve got the militia-separatist/religious nut-job contingent trying to impose their socially schizophrenic paranoid ideology on the state. the state is making national news, and we are becoming a laughing stock. some of the bills being proposed would require presidents to prove their citizenship, force a married couple to take 10 marriage counseling classes before divorcing, nullify health care reform, nullify the endangered species act, create a state militia answerable only to the governor, force ultrasounds on all pregnant women, weaken environmental laws, create loopholes to allow restaurants to circumvent nitrate levels in their water, repeal medicinal marijuana (which has become one of the few economic bright spots in this bleak economy) and on and on.
nationally, Obama continues fucking everything up. caving on tax cuts for the rich, then turning around and proposing a budget that cuts 2.5 BILLION dollars in the home heating assistance program is beyond disgusting. i don’t think it was possible, even for a cynic like me, who was harping on Obama 2+ years ago, to envision how disastrous his tepid pussy-footing around the corridors of corporate power would be. he grovels to the chamber of commerce for some corporate job creation, he acts surprised the right is going for his jugular when he’s willingly holding out both throbbing wrists, and he absolutely gets on all fours for Israel.
still, so many “progressives” are still happy with crumbs. hey, you can stay on your parents health insurance until you’re 26, man, so shut up. he hasn’t closed GITMO because of congress. he’s drawing down in Iraq, chill out, it takes time. and he’s totally all for democracy in Egypt, so just please don’t mention Honduras. and of course he’s for financial reform, he even kinda tapped Elizabeth Warren to, you know, just set up that Financial Consumer Protection Agency, but, you know, not actually run it or anything (i’m sure the new chief-of-staff JP Morgan douche-bag will “advise” Obama really good on a business-friendly dildo familiar with all the various orifices of Wall Street).
Wisconsin, though, gives me a little hope, because it’s a test balloon for the state-level assault the right is engaged in, and those images of the turnout in Madison bouncing out of the idiot box is really beginning to amp up the simmering rage that’s out there, from coast to coast.
it’s just too bad that same idiot box will make sure all that rage is channeled along the social ravines decades of propaganda has carved out. transcending those chasms is the task i’m afraid will never happen, and we’ll never see ourselves as part of the larger awakening happening right now as the this nation’s imperialism continues vying for its place at the global elite’s feeding trough.
Posted by: lizard | Feb 28 2011 23:11 utc | 22
rememberinggiap – good reading there, that is, the link to the obituary of Victor Kiernan, thanks so much…
Posted by: mrmustard | Feb 28 2011 23:15 utc | 23
The hope that a president, elected in a popular surge, can be a vanguard of change, has been buried permanently. Wisconsin’s protest, which is spreading to nearby states, is the way forward. Obama, in his feckless way, has overturned what was left of the people’s belief that their will can be translated into executive action, direct action, to reverse injustices.
as ban ki moon would say – it is of increasing concern – the way empire & its donkey companion are using their unanimous vote at un to ramp up the idea of forms of military intervention
when it is clear that the numbers of casualties are relatively small in relation to the attack on lebanon in 2006 & operation cast lead by the state of israel. there is no sense of proportion. none at all. i presumed gaddaffi would be gone but any form of intervention or involvement – may try to forestall the continuing arab revolts – of which bahrain, oman & the coming demonstrations in saudi arabia must be causing great pain within the walls of washington
i note from the paper’s post – that aje continues to talk of an air strike at adjabiya
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 0:00 utc | 25
I thought you might be interested to hear about a book I just read – and paid $50 for to the Department of Defense!
It is called “Battleground Iraq: Journal of a Company Commander” by Todd S. Brown, though there are various other accounts included, whose authors are not identified.
I know it is ancient history, but I was interested to discover the US army’s point of view on events that I experienced myself, virtually.
Brown was a company commander in the 4th Infantry Division (the one that should have entered via Turkey, but didn’t because the Turks refused). He was stationed in Balad and Samarra from April 2003 to February 2004.
Evidently the narrative of any such commander will be that he found the situation in a mess, and through his clever work the situation was calmed, but when he left, the other idiots in the US army let things slide, and when he came back, he had to settle things again. And that is certainly true of the secondary anonymous narratives.
In the case of Brown’s principal narrative, he fails to hide what really happened. In April 2003, everyone was very friendly, but then over the summer and autumn (fall, for the Americans) he starts talking about ‘bad guys’, who are sorted out by simplistic threats of force, which the Iraqis immediately submit to. Vast amounts of weaponry are found. The other US military never go out beyond the ‘wire’.
Samarra is a bad town ,and he doesn’t want to go there. But of course when he does, he immediately finds the solutions. Of course these days US infantry spend most of their time inside Bradleys, and he heads for one as soon as an explosion is heard.
It is interesting to note that at two points he wants to drop phosphorus bombs on the Iraqis who annoy him. This is a war crime, as white phosphorus is only permitted for illumination or smoke production, as we discovered in Gaza. In Iraq apparently it’s OK, as the military historians who edit his text pass it without a problem.
The narrative passes from wanting to help Iraqis to beating up everybody, with maximum violence. Now why would that be, one asks. The military historian editor tries to help out by explaining the passage from Garner’s military administration to Bremer’s viceroyalty.
You have to ask, wasn’t there something wrong in US policy that that led to this?
I, of course, was particularly interested in this narrative as I worked in Samarra in the 1980s. And I was offered a million dollars by a US official called Silverman in Tikrit, the provincial capital, to go back and work there in February 2004. Evidently he was not intending that I receive the million, which was Iraqi money anyway. If I’d gone, it would have been IEDs all the way, according to Todd S. Brown.
Posted by: alexno | Mar 1 2011 0:25 utc | 26
after reading many such monographs on line – as they say military intelligence is an oxymoron, so too strategic ‘thinkers’ & military ‘tacticians’
knowing i am saying the obvious, in the end mostly, it is a crude, brutal & bloody exercise of power
other empires tried to place a more religious civilising aspect around their terror but i am as convinced for the most part their military was the most incompetent aspect of their imperial power
conrad, that old right winger, understood it well in his ‘heart of darkness’ – the master is doomed to become the savage but infortunately – mr kurtz – he not dead
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 1:33 utc | 27
I still want a No Fly Zone.
giap, despite your protests to the contrary, Q is indeed using his airpower, and that imbalance of forces is perhaps the biggest reason he continues to survive.
Not to mention that the free and exclusive use of the Libyan airspace enables Q to fly in more African fighters (and no Debs, the mercs are not really just dark Southern Libyans), equipment, and supplies.
The ability to reinforce buys Q time as he digs in around Tripoli, husbanding his special forces for counterattacks against the inferior trained and equipped irregulars of the opposition.
Basically, as long as Q own these skies, I’m having a tough time seeing the Libyan opposition taking him out.
Meanwhile, the civilian suffering continues as the flow of aid remains limited.
And a note to those here who feel that any military intervention by western powers is harmful to the future prospects for the Libyan people: I always thought leftists were supposed to welcome the empire using force against one of its own clients.
…I welcome your responses.
Posted by: Night Owl | Mar 1 2011 6:31 utc | 28
The wound opened by the Raymond Davis fiasco in Pakistan continues to fester. Here are a few links
indicating recent developments and related matters. This legal maneuvering by the Pakistani prosecution is of almost humorous interest, since one of the motions made requests that the U.S. appeal for a hearing on Davis’s immunity in the International Court of Justice be denied on the grounds that the U.S. does not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICJ. There is also this report of U.S. refusal of a Raymond Davis-Aafia Sidiqqui swap. By the way,this Wikipedia summary of the Siddiqui case is a good example of why I don’t trust Wikipedia for political matters. One has to read between the lines and discount what seems to me a clear anti-Siddiqui slant to the “objective facts of the case”. Others, of course, may disagree. In any case, I would be very happy to have a link to a similarly detailed discussion from a less (or at least diversely) biased source.
Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Mar 1 2011 11:17 utc | 29
Just heard Googleburg is stepping down. Congratulations to the proofreaders are in order.
Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Mar 1 2011 11:40 utc | 30
Continuation of 29
For example, this link to the first of a four part Press TV video report gives a distinctly different perspective.
Browsing other Pakistani news portals reveals widespread outrage at both the circumstances of the incident, and its handling by the Gillani government, as well as for the by now widely known presence of hundreds of U.S. mercenaries (or “operatives”) engaging in clandestine warfare in Pakistan. It seems that both governments are seeking a way out of the impasse, but the Americans seem to be unable (or unwilling) to offer the kind of face-saving concessions that would allow an acceptable resolution of the case. Meanwhile, and perhaps as a consequence, Pakistan has taken first steps in rolling up the CIA-contractor network mentioned above.
Needless to say, the links given above have the defect of citing only English language sources.
There may well be more incisive material available in the local languages. Here, for example, is a translation from Urdu in the Pakistan Daily Express.
This Cryptome link also has interesting material, although, as observed there, it is probably disinformation. Nevertheless, some of it is revealing, for example the e-mail address baddrelijon@yahoo.com for “Gerald Richardson” at the Hyperion Protective Services Website which speaks volumes about the world-view
of its owner.
Finally, from the Times of India here is a note on , further fallout from the Davis case which is already being characterized as the worst blunder in U.S. covert operations since Francis Gary Powers U2 incident in the Eisenhower administration, or Kennedy’s Bay of Pigs fiasco.
Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Mar 1 2011 12:07 utc | 31
The protests in Madison are more likened to Greece than they are to Egypt, or anywhere else in the M.E. There may be some overlap at a general level, the plebes versus the Plutocracy, but as you drill, the differences become more glaring.
I am not heartened by the protests in Madison in the least. How are poor people in the U.S., and I’m talking truly poor people here, of which there are many, to be heartened and sympathetic with a special interest group who very recently was arguing in court about keeping coverage of Viagra. Yes, I know that’s a trope thrown out there by the right wing pundits, but it’s a true story, and it needs to be answered by anyone with an honest conscience. People are starving and malnourished in the U.S., and it’s a shame that that is not what is being protested, but rather the still comfortable benefits of a special interest group who has nothing in common with the poor and afflicted in the U.S.
As a wise man once said:
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.
Henry David Thoreau
If you want people to get out on the streets and rebel, it better be for the right reasons, because we have all witnessed the waste of time and energy that came of the Trojan Horse Obama. The well is only so deep. The water of that well must be used wisely, while there still is some. Don’t think the Plutocracy doesn’t know that.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I wasn’t even fooled the first time, but many were, including some here. Don’t be fooled again.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Mar 1 2011 12:39 utc | 33
Night Owl,
I am not familiar enough with the details to offer a valid opinion. On the one hand, the opposition forces (rebels as some call them, but I feel that is a bad word to use in this case. Anyways the anti-gadaffi forces to be clear) appear to have a lot of good military equipment, including military leaders who have defected on their side. It maybe is that they are just using their time enough to get organized and make a decent plan to free Tripoli. On the other hand, we have your concerns which are serious.
Again, I do not know enough to make an opinion here. I sure as hell do not want the U.S. (not even a U.N, force either) to go in there on the ground in any way. It is a slippery slope from a “no-fly zone” to more intervention. I have read rumors that the U.S. and other European nations already have flown intelligence people in – “sticking their fingers into the pie” – so to speak. It is so difficult to get good information when we are talking military details.
Ignorance is not always bliss. It is sometimes a big pill to swallow. I welcome all comments.
Posted by: Rick | Mar 1 2011 12:59 utc | 34
All very ture MB, but is the answer too create more poor by taking away the right to bargain with your employer?
Posted by: Ben | Mar 1 2011 15:00 utc | 35
i oppose foreign intervention unconditionally
there are other means to get gaddafi to depart & i am hoping that is the case, very soon, he is essentially encircled by his won people
he can finally be of service to the ongoing arab revolts by leaving
when i watch the inaction of the world before what happened in lebanon & gaza – i fear for the arab & the libyan people , the empire’s real objectives have always been horrendous
& to hear the empire & the spokesman speak of ethics is by any measurement, obscene
all the arab revolts are delicate, their gains are not solid, the last thing they need is the involvement of u s imperialism, even by proxy
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 16:01 utc | 36
just listen, night owl, for example to the vile paul wolfowicz’s pal & understudy, the aran hating arab, foud adjami tp understand the depravity of their plan, ghaddafis amost gone & i sincerely dount his control of his own forces, especially against its own people
& outside of the masses, no i don’t think the opposition is as pure as driven snow
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 16:05 utc | 37
In the Guttenberg thread, off the cuff, stated that Wikileaks was partly responsible for ppl getting together in various actions, protesting, etc. – be it in N. Africa, Arab World, and even in the West. Some expansion.
Scattered points re. recent uprisings and communication:
The Internet, as ‘accessible’ social media.
Played a role in that censorship became obvious. It is one thing to read a Gvmt. rag and dismiss it as lying garbage or not to one’s taste, it is another to be deprived of YouTube at ages 15-35. Internet provided a venue for bloggers with a wide range of opinion, interests, many of them the usual fare, from music buffs to teenage angst, aspiring poets, yet shut downs, arrests, etc. ensued. Unbearable, leading to sharing and *consolidation of technological power* amongst those who ‘could.’ (Obama’s slogan may have been on many’s minds.) Internet penetration is not high, some bloggers being cool does not in itself lead to revolt.
The West loves to stress the communication aspect of so-called social media, Twitter and FaceBook – their creation – but that’s pretty irrelevant. I read somewhere that during the recent quote Green uprising in Iran there were exactly 46 ppl using Twitter. (?? yikes this will raise hackles…) The telephone (or word of mouth, radio sometimes, etc.) is plenty sufficient.
I recall being in Poland shortly before the Fall of the Wall. Don’t care about material conditions, but on the first day, I realized that my actions would be curtailed by the fact that to make photocopies a permission from the Ministry of the Interior was required. It could be obtained, but the material had to be read first by an official, and a fee was levied.
The Authorities were afraid that photocopy machines could be used for underground papers, tracts, etc. They could not allow ordinary nuts, advertisers, dissidents (or pornographers…) or what not to have access to photocopy machines. Did this measure slow down, or speed up, the break up of the USSR and its satellites? – Stencil machines worked fine and were unregulated.
Wikileaks.
Similarly, it is one thing to know that your Oil – or Oligarch is a western lackey, an enthroned Despot, a maniacal Dictator, quite another to see the West discussing this in a complaisant way, such as which son could take over from Kadafi. That is humiliating, shaming. Plus, WL showed that leaks are a possible, can be respectable, taken into account, in any case on occasion create a storm.
The transmission of moving images
Is veritably a powerful tool, as Western Gvmts. have exploited it to the hilt for overt and covert propaganda, the BBC being a driver, to instill attitudes and prejudice, so using it in turns the tables and shows up hypocrisy. The medium is not the message in itself but the comm. channel affords new means to sway opinion.
Note that some take-up or penetration is required, I remember an initiative to give Palestinians cell phones with cam to film the abuse they suffer – almost nothing came of it (afaik, outside of the fringe), whatever was filmed was never shown by the MSM.
Posted by: Noirette | Mar 1 2011 16:08 utc | 38
& as i noted before, i don’t find the threat of political islam at all threatening elsewhere but in libya & algeria – it is a movement covered in the blood of its own people, they have no moral high ground, the people do of course & no one can realistically damn their desire for a new libya but not with the only leadership that is open to them
& as angry arab points out – where is the coverage of bahrain, oman & even quatar – silence radio there
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 16:17 utc | 39
& i can not put it any plainer than this, the empire’s plans whatever they are, are criminal
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 16:23 utc | 40
The US and UK are trying to force a military intervention (presented as a no fly zone, but that’s implying bombing ‘air defenses’) in Libya. It’s going to be hard to get it through the UN SC though.
Posted by: ThePaper | Mar 1 2011 17:39 utc | 41
All very ture MB, but is the answer too create more poor by taking away the right to bargain with your employer?
In a sense, yes, because the power of numbers will be required to Storm the Bastille. So long as there is a relatively comfortable Middle Class neutralized with a “retirement” and “Bread & Circuses,” the most activity you will see is to protest to maintain the status quo……and that’s not change….nor hope. Not until the Middle Class becomes poor and has to walk amongst the destitute, will real, definitive action be taken to create a better world.
Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose, and so long as the Middle Class remains vested to this destructive system, meaning something’s still in it for them, and this includes the Unions, obviously, then they are not free to join with the truly downtrodden in toppling this diabolical system once and for all.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Mar 1 2011 18:13 utc | 42
sheesh, I never thought I would see a union basher at this site. I too am quite disappointed in Morocco’s point of view. to cheerlead for further anal rapes so that finally everyone will be pissed off enough to rebel is really quite remarkable in its cruelness. apparently MB is comfortable and does not have to decide whether to eat or have heat in his home.
rather than begrudge public employees their health care and pensions, why not stand with them and and maybe even go out and get some other workers unionized? there is after all enough money to go around…it does not have to all be concentrated on the top.
if the fact that Viagra is covered by the Wisconsin public sector healthcare plan offends you, you probably do not want to know that the Department of Defense also hands the stuff out for free. Funny how the right wing authoritarians don’t get all riled up about that.
another thing that saddens me is the call for intervention in another country’s internal affairs. what possible right does Ms Clinton, or Ms Rice, or Mr Obama have for them to make pronouncements on the suitability of another nation’s leader? aint nobody’s business but for the people of Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Bahrain, Yemen, and now it seems even Oman. The crocodile tears shed for the poor people who will die rebelling against Qaddafi will quickly dry up when their cousins or brothers die rebelling against foreign invasion and occupation. Good grief, were you people unconscious for the last 10 years? does no one remember Iraq no fly zones and the weekly bombings there? how did that work out?
we have enough to do in our own country and certainly don’t need to go around spreading death and destruction veiled as care and freedom. If you are truly interested in helping someone, just leave them alone. they will work it out. they always do.
Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 1 2011 19:33 utc | 44
yes dan of steele,
Iraq no fly zone created 12 years of US bombing… a prelude to invasion in 2003.
where were all the cries for intervention when Israel was carpet bombing Lebanon?
Posted by: crone | Mar 1 2011 19:48 utc | 45
Russian FM knocks down no-fly zone for Libya
“… Leaders in the U.S., Europe and Australia have suggested the military tactic — used successfully in northern Iraq and Bosnia — to prevent Gadhafi from bombing his own people. But Russia’s consent is required as a veto-wielding member of the Security Council.”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jmuiAHnWRwSDbEMGQEyR1Zn-GgLA?docId=034cc1af71f34d029db3cfd17fc540bc
Posted by: crone | Mar 1 2011 19:50 utc | 46
webcast – general assembly
that loathsome lackey ban ki moon has already prepared for war making an error in his adress calling obama the president of the u n
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 20:37 utc | 48
“the empire’s plans whatever they are, are criminal”
Exactly. No offense to Night Owl, nor intent to minimize civilian suffering, but the Libyan rebels have taken up arms from the outset, so there’s no escaping that this will be a somewhat bloody transition.
And look at the rogue’s gallery calling for the no-fly zone: Paul Wolfowitz, Elliott Abrams, Marc Thiessen, John Hannah, William Kristol, Robert Kagan, Dan Senor. They are clearly up to no good. In fact, they’ve made their careers by mocking ‘do-gooders’.
It’s best if Gaddafi is removed by an internal process.
Posted by: Watson | Mar 1 2011 20:46 utc | 49
to cheerlead for further anal rapes so that finally everyone will be pissed off enough to rebel is really quite remarkable in its cruelness.
Not cheerleading at all. That’s a misrepresentation. I’m not Union bashing either, that is also a misrepresentation. Unions should have always only been a step to get to another point and that point should have been employee ownership (at which point it would no longer appropriate to use the terms employee and ownership) of all business, private or public. Instead, for nearly a century, we are stuck begging for crumbs from crooked intermediaries. The unions of today are not the unions of yesterday. They’re a different animal….a beast even Eugene Debs would sneer at. They’ve become a form of containment that has mitigated, not emboldened and empowered The People.
You are completely wrong about my comfort, by the way, and I wish no discomfort on anybody, but the sad fact, at this point, is that until a large number of people have nothing left to lose, or feel they are fast approaching nothing left to lose, the appropriate steps will not be taken to end this thing, once and for all, and by this thing, I mean this hierarchical system of production and accumulation that creates class fragmentation with resulting economic, social and political injustices.
I crave a real Revolution. A world Revolution, where we put this System, the thing that produces all these awful individuals and outcomes that keep popping up like Whack-A-Mole when you think you have them licked, asunder and replace it with a world vision and system that allows a decent standard of living for all that’s in balance with the planet that gives us life.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Mar 1 2011 21:22 utc | 50
if the fact that Viagra is covered by the Wisconsin public sector healthcare plan offends you, you probably do not want to know that the Department of Defense also hands the stuff out for free. Funny how the right wing authoritarians don’t get all riled up about that.
Let me get this straight. You are calling me out as a right wing authoritarian? Do I have this correct? Could you be that insane?
I’m offended by any health plan covering Viagra, because Viagra is an example of just how sick the whole Medical Care system is. There are no new antibiotics of last resort to combat infectious diseases in the pipelines because Big Pharma is too busy developing shit like Viagra than bothering to develop essential drugs that have low profit margins. For people on the so-called “left” to facilitate such a predicament by “demanding” coverage for Viagra is ludicrous, and they have no business calling themselves “leftist” in any sense of that word.
Not to mention, just how many men have erectile dysfunction anyway? Seriously? What a freaking joke. No, the fat slugs don’t want to change their lifestyles, and that applies to both Republicans and Democrats, of which I am neither, instead they want to pump themselves full of drugs when their neglected meat sacks turn to gelatin.
You have to love it, though, it’s sheer comedy. Revolution on America. Brought to by the makers of Viagra….oh, and the Pizza’s free, just so long as you remember who gave it to you.
What’s cruel is people protesting for such specific, self-interested reasons, and allowing others to starve and lose their homes, or be poisoned by multi-national corporations who despoil their environments.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Mar 1 2011 21:35 utc | 51
M. Bama said:
What’s cruel is people protesting for such specific, self-interested reasons, and allowing others to starve and lose their homes, or be poisoned by multi-national corporations who despoil their environments.
geez, that is a real asshole thing to say. so you know the personal situations of all those protesting in Madison? are you arrogant enough to assume they are all just selfish people who don’t care about the systemic impoverishment of their state and this country?
those protestors aren’t coming out in mass to protect their earnings. they have already made concessions, and their wages and benefits are going to be cut. what they are trying to save is the right to collective bargaining.
Posted by: lizard | Mar 1 2011 21:50 utc | 52
Sorry, last post, I promise. In regards to the No Fly Zone, my answer is bifurcated into what I want for the people of Libya versus what I believe will transpire, and they are two very separate things.
What I want for the people of Libya is for this to be their Revolution, for and by the people of Libya. I want the People’s Will of Libya to prevail with as minimal bloodshed and suffering as possible. An intervention, to include a No Fly Zone restriction, would not result in a Revolution for and by the People of Libya. It would entail the West intervening and returning Libya to category #1 or #2 on my chart. The people of Libya would be sidestepped and neutralized, and their efforts thus far will be wasted.
That being said, what will happen will be an intervention, probably in the form of NATO, the goal of which will be to move Libya away from #3, or #4 on my chart, to most likely #1, but possibly #2.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Mar 1 2011 21:54 utc | 53
i panic, but i think an intervention by nato is quite possible – i hope b returns from his labours to offer some strategic sense on the matter
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 22:34 utc | 54
why doesn’t the old bastard just leave & allow the arab revolts to continue……;
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 1 2011 22:53 utc | 55
I’m against intervention, even a “no fly zone”, and interestingly enough Financial Times foreign affairs columnist Gideon Rachman has also written a piece titled “Better for Libya to liberate itself.”
Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. | Mar 1 2011 23:12 utc | 56
why doesn’t the old bastard just leave
I don’t think he can. I heard Ms Rice say today that he would have to be held accountable for his crimes against humanity meaning he would be imprisoned like Milosevic and Saddam and most likely end up the same way.
Somehow I think that people in a position like that of Qaddafi or Mubarak cannot imagine being anyone else. Just like the millionaires and billionaires who continue to work 12 hour days, being the head of an entire country has got to be pretty damn exhilarating.
Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 1 2011 23:42 utc | 57
dan, i have extreme doubts about the opposition but the libyan people will have to decide that – by his staying he is poisoning the momentum & giving the possibility of interference with what until libya seems to be an organic process the like of which we have never seen
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 2 2011 0:03 utc | 58
totally agree that the reason(s) behind the rebellion are unclear. I only was wondering if it were possible for Qaddafi to retire. apparently it was for Mubarak who was a loyal servant for a long time. Qaddafi has been quite disobedient for a longer time and will probably be hunted down and tormented.
perhaps he knows that he must soon die. how would you act faced with that likelihood? go quietly or take down a few other bastards with you?
or maybe he thinks he still has a chance to pull it off..
Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 2 2011 0:22 utc | 59
b, please tell us:
the title of your Feb 16th post was: “Why Iran, Syria and Sudan Will Not Fall”; I would have thought that Lybia could easily have been included in that group of countries not aiding Palestinians’ oppression and colonialist schemes; yet you didn’t;
how did you know?
Posted by: claudio | Mar 2 2011 1:37 utc | 60
The only way unions can regain the soul of working peoples rights is by opposing those who are pushing them toward a feudal society. Drawing the line in Wisconsin has been a crucial moment in US history. But it remains to be seen if the movement that has begun there will flower.
When r’giap writes “the empire’s plans whatever they are, are criminal”, the true words are indeed spoken.
I have tossed back a few beers tonight. And I celebrate Bernhard’s victory, and the victory of those who knocked down Googleberg. I know it’s important to maintain academic standards and all that , Bernhard; but knocking down a potential US poodle who is being groomed to perhaps take over from Merkel , is, as we say in my country, “a good lick” . I’m so jealous Bernhard; but overwhelmingly happy for you at the same time. Something good has been accomplished for your country; and you and the others who worked hard to do this should be congratulated.
Angry Arab says Mubarak is now in Saudi Arabia
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2011/03/mubarak-in-saudi-arabia.html
Posted by: crone | Mar 2 2011 2:26 utc | 62
the arab revolts are such a breath of fresh air in our history, a history that has been so dark these last ten years especially – times full of possibility, a time where the masses, the crowd, the mob, the foule – that i have loved since the beginning even as a maoist who was supposed to believe in vanguards & cadres – i loved physically the mass – nothing holier in life than chanting or singing in the middle of hundreds of thousands of people – it is the proof of wm blake’s theology that everything is holy
yet, at the same time – i am sufficiently a realist to understand that the empire has diabolical plans
god forbid that the people of the west should learn from these ancient cultures that men & women can really control their own destiny
the empire will do anything, anything to thwart that spark because as mao sd a spark can start a prairie fire
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 2 2011 2:37 utc | 63
andrew
*i still want a nfz* [sic]
like i say, nfz for libya iff usuk is *quaranteen* within their own borders
actually all these pros n cons of *hr intervention* is moot
coz the *ic* is already on the case
[tks to brian for pointing to the landdestroyer site]
n from now on they’d do whatever they please under the *hr* mantra
my bet is andrew here would get his nfz n then some, probably a balkanised libya
or even a regime change.
Posted by: denk | Mar 2 2011 8:26 utc | 64
correct to previous post
it sould read
nightowl
*i still want my nfz* [sic]
Posted by: denk | Mar 2 2011 8:36 utc | 65
Hannah K. O’Luthon, thanks for your links
it seems Pakistan is where the world’s most dangerous tensions are mounting; there are really dirty operations ongoing there, but how dirty we really don’t know yet
Posted by: claudio | Mar 2 2011 9:45 utc | 66
Night Owl #28
Lybia is not a Us client state
I’ll repost (sorry) a link to info on lybian oil exports that I think should be the basis of a rational assessment of this fact:
chart of oil exports
taken from:
your-insights.blogspot.com
here is my original post
Posted by: claudio | Mar 2 2011 9:55 utc | 67
It seems that the Gaddafi faction has started a military offensive with clear air force support on a key oil and refinery hub. It’s like they are trying to force the hand of the US/NATO/UN and force the proposed western military intervention to gain legitimacy. The other reason may be that they didn’t really control much oil assets from their strongholds in Tripoli and Sirte and that may a be good item for bargaining on future negotiations. I guess that the attacking force comes from Sirte. That city, the home of Gaddafi and his tribe, is a real strategic advantage for the Gaddafi faction as it’s blocking the anti Gaddafi factions in the east from the west and its close to the oil assets in the east. If it didn’t exist Gaddafi may be already cornered on Tripoli and with few options.
Other than the intentions of gaining control of Libya through patronizing and military ‘boots’ the main reason some western powers want to support a no-fly zone is the danger that Gaddafi orders the bombing of oil assets as a last retaliation option. Some EU members are freaked at the possibility of losing the Libyan oil production and the shock to their frail economies.
Posted by: ThePaper | Mar 2 2011 15:07 utc | 69
from bill blum’s latest anti-empire report
James Baker served as the Chief of Staff in President Ronald Reagan’s first administration and in the final year of the administration of President George H.W. Bush. He was also Secretary of the Treasury under Reagan and Secretary of State under Bush. Thus, by establishment standards and values, inside marble-columned institutions, Baker is a man to be taken seriously when it comes to affairs of state. Here he is on February 3, during an interview by our favorite TV station, our very own shining beacon of truth, Fox News:
“We want to see the people in the Middle East have a chance at democracy and free markets … I’m sorry, democracy and human rights.” [source]
Posted by: b real | Mar 2 2011 15:17 utc | 70
wsws: Materiel and personnel in place for military intervention in Libya
The United States, Britain and the European powers are deepening their preparations for intervention in Libya, including military action. They hope to exploit the popular revolt against the regime of Muammar Gaddafi to take control of Libya’s oil fields and establish a crucial base for further operations in the region under conditions where dictatorships on which they have relied for years are under siege.
In testimony before the Foreign Affairs Committee of the US House of Representatives on Monday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned, “The entire region is changing and a strong and strategic American response will be essential.”
…
“A no-fly zone is an option we are actively considering. I discussed it today with allies and partners,” Clinton said.
Germany and France have indicated their support for no-fly zones, while Italy—the former colonial power in Libya—is said to have agreed the use of its bases for possible action against the country.
France said the zones must be approved by the United Nations, while German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said, “The impression that this is about military intervention must not emerge under any circumstances.” In reality, the no-fly zones are conceived of as the prelude to wider military intervention.
Addressing a Senate hearing Tuesday, General James Mattis, commander of US Central Command, said, “My military opinion is that it [no-fly zones] would be challenging. You would have to remove air defence capability in order to establish a no-fly zone, so no illusions here. It would be a military operation—it wouldn’t be just telling people not to fly airplanes.”
In other words, it would mean bombing Libyan airbases and planes.
Posted by: b real | Mar 2 2011 15:24 utc | 71
Black ops: how HBGary wrote backdoors for the government
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Mar 2 2011 15:32 utc | 72
as i have noted repeateldy – i have doubts about what constitutes the opposition but what is clear is that gaddafi is not the revolution
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 2 2011 16:08 utc | 75
From AngryArab
I was a critic of the “Zionist Lobby” thesis of Mershheimer and Walt until the Egyptian uprising when I saw the extent to which Netanyahu was directing Obama (I still caution against the exaggeration of the role of the Zionist lobby because the US lobby has imperial interests of its own).
Glad armchair revolutionaries like AA learn from their mistakes. I often ask him why if he is so critical of most comments he does not go to Palestine to lead his people to a state. I guess his armchair and TV control are too comfortable.
Posted by: hans | Mar 2 2011 16:44 utc | 76
And the lesson must be that if Qaddafi were strafing his own bases with fighter jets, then the “people” might deserve having the honor of their struggle referred to by you as “a revolution”?
Oh, I’m sure that’ll result in a tipping point.
Posted by: slothrop | Mar 2 2011 16:48 utc | 77
The argument that the US is in the Middle East to control oil isn’t really backed up by empirical evidence. There is definitely a strategic interest to make sure that oil production isn’t threatened. But to say that everything hangs in the balance until the US can control Iraq’s oil supply, is just stupid. If you look at global production of oil throughout the crisis in the Middle East for the past 10 years, the decrease in production in Iraq was barely a blip. And speculation in commodities trading mostly exaggerates the threat of present crises to the future supply of oil. Speculation is just the inflation of commodity prices by powerful global investors.
Fortunately, oil products can be combined from different geographic regions, and is really cheap to transport. The fact that Libyan light sweet crude is off-line for a couple of months doesn’t really matter.
There is an international market for petroleum that no single country and its mighty military can hope to corner. And to be sure, with all the talk of energy security grids, there is no benefit whatsoever for geographic regions to board the production and consumption of energy, particularly in a world in which neoliberal trade is the norm, and regional economic autochthony is as impossible as it is undesirable.
Posted by: slothrop | Mar 2 2011 17:22 utc | 79
a couple of things to throw out there that i should have included w/ that snippet i posted from the wsws article above in #71
gen. mattis heads CENTCOM while libya is actually part of AFRICOM’s AOR (area of responsibility), which has just recently changed command and is still considered relatively new and unestablished. when AFRICOM was created egypt was the only african country not considered part of its responsibility, on account of its strategic importance and ties to the middle east, and still falls under CENTCOM’s AOR.
is it possible that the political climate now and, presumably, in the near future in allied autocratic nations of the middle east and north africa is forcing the u.s. to rethink/redefine CENTCOM & AFRICOM’s AORs?
as to libya – is AFRICOM ready for military action like bombing runways, aircraft & munitions on such a scale? the only sizable base it has on the continent is in djibouti. it would seem that any large military operation in the region more than likely has to default to CENTCOM, based on its forces, bases and operational experience.
if the u.s. takes the opportunity to establish a new base or bases in libya, for a growing number of objectives, including dealing w/ destabilized regional govts, will it be under CENTCOM or AFRICOM?
Posted by: b real | Mar 2 2011 18:30 utc | 80
from rorty bomb:
“The fight in Wisconsin is over Governor Walker’s 144-page Budget Repair Bill. The parts everyone is focusing on have to do with the right to collectively bargain being stripped from public sector unions (except for the unions that supported Walker running for Governor). Focusing on this misses a large part of what the bill would do. Check out this language, from the same bill (my bold)….”
more at:
http://tinyurl.com/4pkxvz2
Posted by: Noirette | Mar 2 2011 18:42 utc | 81
b real, feel concerned that this supposed panarabist gaddafi is going to be the cause of a slowing of momentum of all the arab & north african revolts – if he opens his society & even if he dissapears there is sufficient anti-imperialist culture within libya to allow the momentum to continue
there is always a threat that this momentum can be compromised by the strategies of empire & i am sure they are trying in every way possible to do so – but if gaddafi allows libya to become a site for the empire then he has performed the cruelest crime against the arab people & not only his own
dan , i think is correct to suggest that the empire is deliberately closing the possibilities of his leaving, of allowing the filthy contracts that must have been accepted by the hoodlum ali in tunisia, & the gangster mubarak in egypt. you may be correct that at the least they want him to suicide, or have one of the leadership to do so – but it seems to me they would prefer an excuse to intervene militarily in one way or another to be able to establish sites in libya
events are happening so rapidly – i hope the demonstrable incompetence of u s imperialism is drowned before it can actualyl do much harm
parenthetically, in watching the general assembly last night,, cuba, bolivia, venezuela & even little nicaragua offered principled criticism of any form of intervention – none of them appeared apologists while others who spoke just seemed to repeat the us state dept document given them & while the un secretary generals have been a sorry lot, ban ki moon must really take the prize
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 2 2011 18:57 utc | 82
Arguments I am sympathetic with:
It’s best if Gaddafi is removed by an internal process.
Interestingly enough Financial Times foreign affairs columnist Gideon Rachman has also written a piece titled “Better for Libya to liberate itself.”
No question it would be better for the Libyans to free themselves. I just don’t see how that’s possible so long as Q has complete freedom to move his forces anywhere he wants and can reinforce from outside via his airbases any time he wants.
I sure as hell do not want the U.S. (not even a U.N, force either) to go in there on the ground in any way. It is a slippery slope from a “no-fly zone” to more intervention.
Thank you, Rick, for pointing out the important distinction between a NFZ and a ground invasion (a distinction others here apparently do not understand).
In my judgment, foreign ‘boots on the ground’ is not a likely end game of a Libyan NFZ, if for no other reason than, with the current operations in Iraq and AfPak, the Western powers simply don’t have ground troops to spare for such a large operation.
Second, the experience of Bosnia showed that the use of ground forces in conjunction a NFZ actually makes the NFZ less effective because it complicates the operations and gives the interdicted regime the opportunity to take hostages. (Any else here remember the 350 Dutch peacekeepers the Serbs captured near Sarajevo? They don’t want another one of those.)
By his staying he is poisoning the momentum & giving the possibility of interference with what until libya seems to be an organic process the like of which we have never seen
Absolutely, and the longer Q is able to hang around, the more he retards the process of change all over the region – eventually perhaps irrevocably.
Arguments that make no sense:
oppose foreign intervention unconditionally…when i watch the inaction of the world before what happened in lebanon & gaza – i fear for the arab & the libyan people
where were all the cries for intervention when Israel was carpet bombing Lebanon?
So, because the Lebanese and Palestinians have both suffered terribly from the consequences of their opponent’s air supremacy, the Libyans must also? I don’t get that one at all.
Iraq no fly zone created 12 years of US bombing… a prelude to invasion in 2003.
Nonsense. The imposition of an Iraq no fly zone in the early 90’s to protect the Kurds in the North and the Shiite (‘Marsh Arabs’) in the South ws in no way imposed in contemplation of Bush II’s invasion more than a decade later. If anything, the NFZ was imposed because the Bush I did not want to invade Iraq after kicking Saddam out of Kuwait.
Good grief, were you people unconscious for the last 10 years? does no one remember Iraq no fly zones and the weekly bombings there? how did that work out?
Worked out pretty well for the Kurds and the Shia.
Arguments I find distasteful:
Libyan rebels have taken up arms from the outset, so there’s no escaping that this will be a somewhat bloody transition.
First, this is patently untrue. Libyan opposition began peacefully and only turned violent when Q started gunning down people in the streets.
Second, the idea that the opposition has somehow forfeited their case for help simply because they have taken necessary steps to defend their lives from maniacal dictator is the worst form of blaming the victim.
night owl, for example to the vile paul wolfowicz’s pal & understudy, the aran hating arab, foud adjami tp understand the depravity of their plan,
that loathsome lackey ban ki moon has already prepared for war making an error in his adress calling obama the president of the un
Can we please stop these specious guilt by association arguments? Just because others may have their own interests in following a similar policy in no means that motives should be conflated.
As far as Ban Ki Moon goes, moreover, he was calling out the western powers on their inaction in the face of Q’s atrocities well before they realized that it might be in their own interests to do so – so he’s hardly a ‘lackey’ here.
I’d also note the Moon was himself a war refugee as a child during the Korean war, so I for one take his strong concerns about the growing humanitarian crisis at face value.
Arguments I find naive:
If you are truly interested in helping someone, just leave them alone. they will work it out. they always do.
Yeah, tell that to the Burmese and North Koreans. In fact I hear Q is thinking of changing his first name to Myanmar.
Seriously though, what if they don’t ‘work it out’? What if Q doesn’t go quickly, or even at all? What do you propose to do about a prolonged civil war in which millions of refugees pour over the borders and overwhelm two countries that are already in the midst of their own revolutions?
Bottom line folks, this“>http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-panic-on-borders-as-chaos-engulfs-libya-2229612.html”>this is just the beginning, and if we don’t something pronto, it’s only going to get a lot worse.
Posted by: Night Owl | Mar 2 2011 19:18 utc | 83
Amr Moussa, who could become the next Egyptian president, flexing his pan-arabist and reformist muscle:
Arab League says could impose Libya “no fly” zone
Replace Arab League with Egypt as it’s likely the only country with the capability and is close enough. Turkey would have the capability but should have to use Egyptian bases. I’m not sure though if any has the financial resources for a long campaign.
I remember reading that when some of the anti-Gaddafi officers requested a no-fly zones said they preferred Arab support to US support.
Posted by: ThePaper | Mar 2 2011 19:54 utc | 84
night owl
just some points
the no fly zone is a precursor to military intervention
i & other posters are highlighting the ‘international community’s’ complete indifference to the bombing by israel on lebanon & in the occupied territories, this indifference directed, orchestrated by the ‘great powers’ & obscene blindness to israel’s cruelty for which ban ki moon became a spokesman – he was ‘concerned’ but not much more that in both instances – of lebanon & gaza – the un’s own institutions were bombed
the “international community” is in these instances just another name for ‘criminal conspiracy’
i find none of your arguments for a no fly zone convincing & i do not think it is at all coïncidental that the same characters who called for it in iraq are calling for it in libya & those psychopaths are every bit as dangerous as gaddafi – they are responsible for far more deaths
the revolt in libya has stipulated until the last few days that they wanted no form of foreign intervention & we have seen very little of the libyan airforce going hither & thither – they simply may not have the support to do that & the mercenaries seems far fetched to me given the information we have
we agree on the question of gaddafi leaving, & we agree that he is affecting in the worst way the arab revolts, & i fear what you suggest, perhaps irrevocably
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 2 2011 20:14 utc | 87
As far as I see in the current situation just a no-fly-zone isn’t going to have much impact. The air support capabilities demonstrated until this point by the Gaddafi faction has been limited and if it has an impact is more because it acts as a deterrent against large convoys moving from the east to the west and fears from bombing Benghazi and other cities. But they haven’t show any real capability for widespread air support or bombing. We don’t know how much of an air force they still have.
Gaddafi’s faction moving troops around with helicopters or middle size transport planes may have more impact but those are more easily countered with the weaponry available by the opposition. And if the reports are true they have already showed the capability to counter that menace. In theory the opposition should also have some fighters or planes from the airbases they control. Perhaps, given that the air force was controlled by people close to Gaddafi, they don’t have pilots or are non working. Libya was under embargo for 10 years so maybe a lot of those planes, which most are quite old, aren’t flight capable.
Read also what the US and NATO officials have been saying. They aren’t just going to put their planes on Libyan space and start patrolling to prevent Libyan air planes from flying. They will start first by destroying anti-air assets (radars, missile batteries), then bombing airstrips and air bases (landed planes and hangars) and continue with whatever else is at sight. So basically they will take a very liberal approach that will effectively mean that they can bomb whatever asset from the Gaddafi faction they consider. After that phase is when they will have the planes on patrol mode and likely, just like in Iraq, bomb whatever target and whenever they feel so. They aren’t really hiding these plans.
Posted by: ThePaper | Mar 2 2011 21:01 utc | 89
The crafty, devious CIA. Look how they’re making it appear they want no intervention. They even wrote in it English! denk must be right afterall. The lengths they will go to….
http://www.aawsat.com/2011/03/01/images/front1.610507.jpg
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Mar 2 2011 21:32 utc | 91
i noticed that the raymond davis thread was closed. this may be late but still i thought this telegraph link interesting, confirms b’s suspicions.
Raymond Davis ‘was acting head of CIA in Pakistan’
A US intelligence agent arrested after shooting dead two men was the acting head of the CIA in Pakistan and had been gathering intelligence for drone attacks, according to intelligence sources.
Posted by: annie | Mar 2 2011 21:34 utc | 92
@ Nightowl
What do you propose to do about a prolonged civil war in which millions of refugees pour over the borders and overwhelm two countries that are already in the midst of their own revolutions?
The same thing you did when millions of refugees poured over the borders from Iraq. not a damn thing.
It is a big country and as far as I can tell only a few people are intent on making trouble and they are mostly from Benghazi and belong to the tribe of the King that was deposed by Q. I strongly doubt that the Libyans have a desire to kill each other. This looks like a power grab and it needs to run its course. Outside interference will only prolong the process.
So because the US was not able to militarily defeat North Korea, they are worse off because the US does not invade and or make their airspace off limits to them? I guess I am too naive to understand that. And Burma…are you suggesting they have their present government because other nations did not interfere in their internal affairs? that is also quite bizarre.
no one of us, not even you will benefit from US, NATO, or UN involvement in Libya. There will be death and destruction and the rich, powerful, and criminal will gain from the resulting chaos. that is the way it always works. elephants will do battle and the grass will suffer. You too dear Nightowl are grass who thinks it is an elephant.
I regularly attended briefings during the times of Northern Watch and Provide Comfort and can tell you that munitions were expended at least weekly for all the years that went on. all kinds of excuses were given and none were ever questioned. Every now and then the US Air Force would stand down and the Turks would go in and bomb the Kurds. you knew that didn’t you? The same thing will happen again. Why should my country’s treasure be spent on that? How will it help me? how will it help you? I do not want to hear about the humanitarian reasons for such an action because the truth of the matter is that the people who make these decisions don’t give a rat’s ass for anyone’s well being. If that were not the case, those people would not be bombing Afghan weddings, Serbian passenger trains, raping and murdering Iraqi girls are any other of the fun stuff that happens during invasions and occupations. take a look at the americas, especially central and south america. that is the US’s back yard. how have most countries there benefited from US largess? ever been to Honduras? what about Mexico? there have been popular uprisings there too…did you call for intervention then? if not, why not? are they not worthy? they have oil too don’t you know.
Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 2 2011 21:49 utc | 93
the situation is extremely grave but it has a most surreal aspect – flags for the imbecilic king idris – phantom speeched by emperor gaddafi that stretch the meaning of rhetoric, ban ki moon performing a somnambulist waltz with president obama – the idiot u s ambassador at the un trying to make out she is john bolton even if she has a better head of hair
meanwhile in bahrain, oman & yemen it is getting very hot indeed
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 2 2011 22:32 utc | 94
it’s hard to envision millions of refugees from country that has 5 or 6 million people
Posted by: claudio | Mar 2 2011 23:17 utc | 95
Claudio,
it’s hard to envision millions of refugees from country that has 5 or 6 million people.
you might start might envisioning 1.8 million foreign workers and go from there.
Also here’s the link again for the Fisk article cited in my previous post, which I highly recommend reading to get a sense of the burgeoning crisis.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-panic-on-borders-as-chaos-engulfs-libya-2229612.html
Posted by: Night Owl | Mar 3 2011 0:04 utc | 96
ok Night Owl, the problem is big, but you can’t mix war refugees with foreigners workers returning home
but the main point is still that of deciding when the problem becomes so “big” we just have to intervene, right?
my answer is: every time and only if they ask you
what are the poor, the people who suffer, the subjects of natural or social tragedies, always asking the world for? free medicine, food, abolition of debt, etc; enough to satisfy any humanitarian instinct; I can’t remember calls for military help except in the case of civil wars, or secessionist movements, etc
and in any case, to send the Us or Nato in Libya would be like sending a serial rapist to help a distressed child
so what can we do? prepare ourselves, in the worst case scenario, to help the refugees: in the Us, in Europe, in Tunisia and Egypt; Lebanon, Jordan and Syria already host millions of Palestinians and Iraqis; we are much richer, we’ll sure be able to play our part, this time
Posted by: claudio | Mar 3 2011 1:15 utc | 98
moroco
*The crafty, devious CIA. Look how they’re making it appear they want no intervention. They even wrote in it English! denk must be right afterall. The lengths they will go to….*
http://www.aawsat.com/2011/03/01/images/front1.610507.jpg *
**The crafty, devious CIA* ?
u aint seen nuthin yet moroco
http://tinyurl.com/2fzg4rj
[fake eye witness, fake air raid, fake foto, video….the lots]
there’s a legend about a man who kept his fortune in a box
then he paste a note on it with the msg
+there’re no monies in this box+
buahahaha
Posted by: denk | Mar 3 2011 8:32 utc | 99
owl
*Seriously though, what if they don’t ‘work it out’? What if Q doesn’t go
quickly, or even at all? What do you propose to do about a prolonged
civil war in which millions of refugees pour over the borders and overwhelm two countries ?*
the world has gone crazy for ages owl
while the *ic* n *hr* crusaders like u went awol
http://tinyurl.com/22asx2
Posted by: denk | Mar 3 2011 8:39 utc | 100