nothing a nation needs more than hack bbc journalists

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 24 2011 23:17 utc | 4

has anyone bothered to look at the Opposition? i have and they have a history of violent insurrection and US backing.The mani org is the National Foundation for the Salvation of Libya:
The Voice of the Libyan People had a four year career with broadcasts against Muammar Qadhafi and Libya between 1984 and 1988. It was proclaimed as the voice for the National Front for the Salvation of Libya (NFSL), a group consisting of exiled opponents of Qadhafi’s regime headed by Aly Abuzaakouk that was founded in 1981. This group, according to Perry Shultz,, established ties with the CIA which saw the organization as the most potent opposition against Tripoli (Perry, p.165
http://www.qsl.net/yb0rmi/libya.htm
http://empirestrikesblack.com/2011/02/libya-the-rest-of-the-story/

Posted by: brian | Feb 24 2011 23:42 utc | 6

http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Thread-Who-is-the-oppositional-protesters-in-Libya

Posted by: brian | Feb 24 2011 23:44 utc | 8

Glencore IPO coming up.
How much is all of this “freedom” worth to them, right now?
Hoping for the best in all of those looking for change, but this has me wondering.

Posted by: bob | Feb 25 2011 2:24 utc | 10

This is Gadaffi 45 days ago:
‘al-Ahmed: Unlike other leaders, Gaddafi, himself, did not live a life of luxury. He lives, at least publicly, a simple life. He lives in a small place. He does not have massive palaces. His children yes, but himself, no. He basically lives a fairly simple life and until a month and a half ago he was walking in Tripoli among the people without fear of anybody attacking him. So, he has support within the Libyan society. It is not maybe over 50 percent; I would say maybe 40 percent – for some because he distributed money among them and for some because he was the only person they knew and they think this is the best thing that could happen to Libya’
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/166452.html

Posted by: brian | Feb 25 2011 3:44 utc | 12

brian
what a surprise….not 1
this bears the hallmark of a classic cia op

Posted by: denk | Feb 25 2011 4:55 utc | 14

Strange no comment yet from AQ. An opportunist organisation like AQ would normally be spewing out tons of rubbish to confuse the revolutions? What gives here? Is the CIA props department too busy!

Posted by: hans | Feb 25 2011 6:49 utc | 16

The military might of the NFSL was at its height in the late 1980s and early 1990s. In 1987 several hundred Libyan soldiers and a large quantity of Libyan military equipment were captured by the Chadian Army. Libya and Chad were involved in a long standing dispute over the Aozou Strip, a territory belived to hold large uranium reserves. The Libyan prisoners were recruited into a “Contra” force led by Col. Abdoulgassim Khalifa Haftar. Training was provided by the U.S. CIA and Chadian Army officers. Funding was provided by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia
http://left.wikia.com/wiki/National_Front_for_the_Salvation_of_Libya

Posted by: brian | Feb 25 2011 7:40 utc | 18

im surprised to see NFSL on australian ABC media! arent the ABC aware the NFSL is a terrorist organisation?

Posted by: brian | Feb 25 2011 7:43 utc | 20

brian
the state dept designated kla as *terrarists*, but it didnt stop uncle sham from using it to disember ex yugo.
the state dept’s annual report listed many *tyrants* , *dictators*, but it didnt stop the mic from selling these *rogues* weapons or the doo [dept of offence] from training their troops either !
sori, gotta sign off now….

Posted by: denk [banned by guardian] | Feb 25 2011 8:18 utc | 22

Here you two, chew on this:

CIA’s top Libyan contact Musa Kusa may go down with Gaddafi.
The Libyan official who was a key CIA contact in the war on terrorism and the removal of Moammar Gaddafi’s weapons of mass destruction may have no option now but to go down with the ship.
Foreign Minister Musa Kusa, who plotted assassinations and airline bombings as well as helped Washington pursue al-Qaeda terrorists, cannot defect to the opposition like other top Libyan officials, says a spokesman for a U.S.-based Libyan human rights group, because “he has too much blood on his hands.”

See? This is what an article about American/Libyan relations in this century looks like.

Posted by: Night Owl | Feb 25 2011 8:29 utc | 24

‘The Libyan official who was a key CIA contact in the war on terrorism and the removal of Moammar Gaddafi’s weapons of mass destruction may have no option now but to go down with the ship.’
you have to laugh at the absurdity of this post…Gadaffis WMDs?
when the nation with the most WMDS was ordering Libya to get rid of its…saddam did that and look what happened to him!

Posted by: brian | Feb 25 2011 9:18 utc | 26

If the CIA’s been trying to off the Marvelous Mug since his rise to power, they’re incompetent boobs, and the U.S. taxpayers should demand a refund. Seriously, we’re talking approximately 40 years to get the job done, and no results.
denk and brian, what do you believe…..about hierarchical power and tyranny? Do you oppose it, in principle, and if so, then what would you like to see happen in Libya, let alone everywhere else on the globe. Not what you think is happening, or what will happen, but what you would like to see come about?

Posted by: Morocco Bama | Feb 25 2011 12:05 utc | 28

Yeah, it’s all a big neocon conspiracy to remove Gadaffi, right? In which case, why is Richard Perle one of a posse of Neocon Gadaffi lobbyists in Washington?
Lenin’s Tomb:

This morning, I found out that Qadhafi’s international lobbying operation, involved Richard Perle, Francis Fukuyama, Bernard Lewis, Dick Cheney…

Tell me why the notion that we can support tyrants if they happen to be OUR tyrants is anything other than inhumane, abstract geopolitical posturing.

Posted by: Tantalus | Feb 25 2011 12:23 utc | 30

SultanAlQassemi tweets about the people chanting against the the pro-regime Iman in Tripoli, I guess from Libyan TV.

The sound has been cut off
about 1 hour ago via web

People are chanting against the propagandist Imam in Tripoli. The camera has moved away. They are filming the ceiling.
about 1 hour ago via web

Amazing amazing.
about 1 hour ago via Twitter for iPhone

Imam who sold his soul to the devil (addressing revolutionaries): “You are scaring people with your bullets & weapons” #Libya
about 1 hour ago via Twitter for iPhone

Libyan propagandist Friday sermon Imam selling his religion for Gaddafi. Reading from a paper. #Libya “>http://yfrog.com/h74kgzjj

Posted by: ThePaper | Feb 25 2011 13:21 utc | 32

Well, I’m of a similar opinion about Twitter and the stupid 140 character limit but when everyone is using it and you want a source of information that doesn’t have a more verbose equivalent there isn’t much of an option. So I admit defeat, I have started to check this one from time to time. Of course I tend to be way too verbose …
To the point. The revolution is not over in Libya, Tunis or the anywhere else in the Arab world. Large protest today in Tunis least the forget remains of the regime in power what the people really wants. Some on Iraq which will lower the chances of the Iraqi government to support keeping US troops there after December. I expect some more action in Egypt on the next weeks if the old generals attempt to drag on the real reforms.

Posted by: ThePaper | Feb 25 2011 13:52 utc | 34

morocco..ive no interest in idle speculation

Posted by: brian | Feb 25 2011 14:43 utc | 36

‘Yeah, it’s all a big neocon conspiracy to remove Gadaffi, right?’
right…forget Lenin…hes clueless

Posted by: brian | Feb 25 2011 14:47 utc | 38

Brian,
You are embarrassingly ignorant of recent history:

Soon after U.S. President George W. Bush dropped sanctions against Libya in 2004, when Gaddafi announced that he intended to give up weapons of mass destruction and expressed his eagerness to join the war on terror, U.S. and British oil producers and business interests jumped at the chance to expand into the country, which has been ruled with an iron fist by the unstable leader for some 40 years.
Some of the biggest oil producers and servicers, including BP, ExxonMobil, Halliburton, Chevron, Conoco and Marathon Oil joined with defense giants like Raytheon and Northrop Grumman, multinationals like Dow Chemical and Fluor and the high-powered law firm White & Case to form the US-Libya Business Association in 2005. The members of its executive advisory council each pay $20,000 in annual dues to the group, which is managed by the National Foreign Trade Council, a coalition that seeks to facilitate international opportunities for U.S. companies. Most of the group’s members have lobbied the U.S. government since 2004 to protect their investments in Libya or to iron out business problems with the regime. Bilateral trade with Libya totaled $2.7 billion in 2010, compared to practically nothing in 2003 when sanctions were still in force.

The CIA has absolutely no interest in seeing Q gone. Since 2004, he’s been their Man in Tripoli.

Posted by: Night Owl | Feb 25 2011 16:44 utc | 40

denk
+this bears the hallmark of a classic cia op+
owl
*Most clueless post, ever.
For brian and denk, it’s like the last eight years of US/Libyan
rapprochement never happened.*
+Getting concessions out of Gadhafi is not enough for the imperialist oil
barons. They want a government that they can own outright, lock, stock and barrel+
http://tinyurl.com/4m7sme3
i’d have thought that u ought to know better by now, if us [uncle sham]
had no qualm toppling fully bought n paid for puppets
+The year I was born, the CIA orchestrated a coup against South
Vietnam’s Ngo Dinh Diem, whom it had propped up in the first place+
tinyurl.com/4h6j32h
u think he’d hesitate to outst a yet to be co-opted *miscreantn* like kadafi ?
*Here you two, chew on this:
tinyurl.com/4c9xtug*
big deal.
when *our kind of guy* suharto’s rule became untenable, washington just
gave him a call n ask him to quit pronto
this ex foreign minister of kadaffi is tarred with alleged *serious hr
violations*, in other words, an unsaleable commodity, so he has to go too.
tantalus
*Yeah, it’s all a big neocon conspiracy to remove Gadaffi, right? In which
case, why is Richard Perle one of a posse of Neocon Gadaffi lobbyists
in Washington?*
really ?
so this cant be a us plot coz perle met kadaffi in 2006 to secured some
sweet deals for himself ?
well cheney was very chumy with saddam b4 2003
tinyurl.com/83gqah
tinyurl.com/4j5aw7n
but it didnt stop us from invading iraq n strung saddam up when he was
perceived to get outta of line
oh , btw owl
as for being clueless, this remark surely take the cake
owl
*Rick,
If you think the bumbling fools in the U.S. government are that proficient, any further debate here is useless.
My thoughts exactly.*
moroco
=If the CIA’s been trying to off the Marvelous Mug since his rise to
power, they’re incompetent boobs, and the U.S. taxpayers should
demand a refund. Seriously, we’re talking approximately 40 years to get
the job done, and no results=
another one who think that those *bumbling fools* in langley couldnt pull
off another regime change lol
=denk and brian, what do you believe…..about hierarchical power and
tyranny? Do you oppose it, in principle, and if so, then what would you
like to see happen in Libya, let alone everywhere else on the globe. Not
what you think is happening, or what will happen, but what you would like
to see come about?=
pray tell
who’s the biggest tyranny in the world
hint [ +During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would
say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al
Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in
three districts. I operated on three continents. +
tinyurl.com/37g9w
if u’re against tyranny, dont u think that its imperative to find out whether this global tyrant is looking for another new colony ala kosovo ?
tinyurl.com/cs7jep
owl,
just see ur latest post, but i’ve already addressed it here

Posted by: denk | Feb 25 2011 17:09 utc | 42

owl
unfortunately i dont belong to ur species 🙁
see u 2moro

Posted by: denk | Feb 25 2011 17:37 utc | 44

@denk, @brian – how does it feel permanently wearing a tinfoil hat
I believe you are wrong. The west was happy with Gadhafi in recent years and the prospect of Saif taking over. There was no reason to take him down with unpredictable consequences. To think differently is, in my view, nuts.
Now, as unpredictable consequences become likely, there is a scramble to create “something” out of it. One thing is for sure – any intervention would make things worse. Gadhafi can not hold Tripoli without having the rest of the country. He’ll go down.

Posted by: b | Feb 25 2011 19:37 utc | 46

Link stolen from Xymphora.
Libyan and Bahrain uprisings and Anglo-American conspiracy theory

Posted by: ThePaper | Feb 25 2011 19:56 utc | 48

“Although William Hague’s ramblings about Gaddafi’s flight to Venezuela have been disproved, I spoke to a number of Libyans who believed that Burkina Faso might be his only viable retreat. Two nights ago, a Libyan private jet approached Beirut airport with a request to land but was refused permission when the crew declined to identify their eight passengers. And last night, a Libyan Arab Airlines flight reported by Al Jazeera to be carrying Gaddafi’s daughter, Aisha, was refused permission to land in Malta.”
fisk yesterday

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 25 2011 20:26 utc | 50

“The policy of plundering imposed by the United States and their NATO allies in the Middle East has gone into a crisis. It has inevitably unravelled with the high cost of grains, the effects of which can be felt more forcefully in the Arab countries where, in spite of their huge resources of oil, the shortage of water, areas covered by desert and the generalized poverty of the people contrast with the enormous resources coming from the oil possessed by the privileged sectors.
While food prices triple, real estate fortunes and the treasures of the aristocratic minority reach millions of millions of dollars.
The Arab world, mainly Muslim in its culture and beliefs, has seen itself additionally humiliated by the imposition of blood and fire by a State that was not capable of fulfilling the basic obligations that were part of their origin, from the colonial order existing up to the end of WW II, by virtue of which the victorious powers created the United Nations Organization and imposed world trade and economy.
Thanks to the treason committed by Anwar El-Sadat at Camp David, the Palestinian State has not been able to exist, despite the UN treaties of November 1947, and Israel became a strong nuclear power, an ally of the United States and NATO.
The US Military Industrial Complex supplied Israel with tens of billions of dollars every year as well as to the very Arab States that were submitted and being humiliated by Israel.
The genie has escaped from the bottle and NATO doesn’t know how to control it.
They are going to attempt to wrest the most benefits from the regrettable events in Libya. Nobody can know at this moment what is happening over there. All the figures and versions, even the most implausible ones, have been spread by the empire via the mass media, sowing chaos and disinformation.
It is obvious that inside Libya a civil war is brewing. Why and how did this happen? Who will pay the consequences? Reuters Agency, echoing the opinion of the well-known Nomura Bank of Japan, stated that oil prices could go beyond any limits:
“‘If Libya and Algeria suspend oil production, prices could reach a maximum of more than 220 dollars a barrel and OPEC’s inactive capacity would be reduced to 2.1 million barrels per day, similar to levels seen during the Gulf War and when values touched 147 dollars a barrel in 2008’, the bank asserted in an article.”
Who could pay that price these days? What would be the consequences in the midst of the food crisis?
The main NATO leaders are all worked up. British Prime Minister David Cameron, ANSA informed, “…admitted in a speech in Kuwait that the western nations made a mistake in backing non-democratic governments in the Arab world.” One has to congratulate him on his frankness.
His French colleague Nicolas Sarkozy stated: “The extended brutal and bloody repression of the Libyan civilian population is disgusting”.
Italian Chancellor Franco Frattini stated as “‘believable’ the figure of one thousand dead in Tripoli […] ‘the tragic numbers shall be a bloodbath’.”
Hillary Clinton stated the following: “…the ‘bloodbath’ is ‘completely unacceptable’ and ‘it has to stop’…”
Ban Ki-moon spoke: “‘The use of violence in the country is absolutely unacceptable’.”
“…‘the Security Council will act according to whatever the international community decides’.”
“‘We are considering a series of options’.”
What Ban Ki-moon is really hoping is that Obama pronounces the last word.
The president of the United States spoke this Wednesday afternoon and stated that the Secretary of State would be leaving for Europe in order to agree with their NATO allies on the measures to be taken. On his face one could note the opportunity to spar with John McCain, the far-right-wing Republican senator, pro-Israel Senator Joseph Lieberman from Connecticut and the leaders of the Tea Party, in order to ensure the Democratic Party demands.
The empire’s mass media has prepared the terrain for action. There would be nothing strange about a military intervention in Libya; besides, with that, Europe would be guaranteed almost two million barrels of light oil per day, unless before that events would put an end to the leadership or the life of Gaddafi.
Anyway, Obama’s role is rather complicated. What will the reaction of the Arab and Muslim world be if blood should flow in abundance in that country as a result of that exploit? Would NATO intervention in Libya stem the revolutionary tidal wave surging in Egypt?
In Iraq, the innocent blood of more than a million Arab citizens was spilt when the country was invaded under false pretexts. Mission accomplished!: proclaimed George W. Bush.
Nobody in the world would ever agree with the deaths of defenceless civilians in Libya or anywhere else. And I wonder: will the US and NATO apply that principle on the defenceless civilians that the unmanned Yankee planes and the soldiers of that organization kill every day in Afghanistan and Pakistan?
fidel castro
It is a cynical danse macabre.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 25 2011 23:03 utc | 52

Sorry: “…a dictator or king.. that revolution…” the excitement is making me giddy. These are precious moments in history, too precious to be soured by sectarianism or marred by egotism.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 25 2011 23:20 utc | 54

Brian & denk,
The Arab countries, if their revolutions succeed beyond what b has called “stage 1” , have a powerful “built-in” protection from U.S. political influence. And that protection, quite simply, is their Arabic language. Libya is even better protected by virtue of their people having strong tribal cultures. Even here in the U.S., when someone from the north moves into the south, the northern “accent” stands out profoundly. Where I live in a sparsely populated area, I can even tell distinct dialects from different areas only several miles away. The language/culture factor helped doom the Iraq adventure from the start. It would be very difficult to have any form of a fair democracy and allow Washington to put in puppet leaders in Libya. As others here have said, the U.S. has liked dealing with dictators – much easier to control a country thru a dictator puppet than one with a fair democracy.
Ironically, brian used a Brzezinski statement, Brzezinski boasted to Newsweek of his ability to manipulate the youth bulge across the Arab world…, as a reference to further his point that this Libyan uprising is U.S. instigated. However, a more profound statement by Brzezinski , chilling in fact if one thinks about the possible implications for our future, is when he said that in previous recent history, it was easier to control populations by propaganda than by force. Now, with technology progressed as it has, it is easier to control populations by force. [Especially in localized areas that we have already witnessed but the areas able to be controlled seem to be getting larger all the time. And this control can be accomplished now by a few who control such power. My apologies to Alex Jones, but are we already witnessing the beginnings of a “prison planet”?] Sorry, I don’t have a link to Brzezinski’s comment – this was in a televised interview I watched about a year ago, but the statement stands on its own regardless.
The larger concern, in my opinion, is the world corporate elites, literally “chomping at the bit” in turning these people with their new found options into economic slaves. Of course, that is a concern we all face, but with most of us in the West, it is already too late. I mentioned my concern about this with r’giap in the previous Libyan thread where I talked about buying “shiny objects”. R’giap had a good reply – “the corporations don’t have much to offer anymore”.

Posted by: Rick | Feb 26 2011 1:09 utc | 56

i cannot understand then if all this is true why they have not taken tripoli or that the leadership of libya does not feel sufficient menace to leave
The slow and measured way our USukers have retreated from erstwhile comrade Qaddafi could be turned into a vast novel of tolstoy-like proportions. Successive chapters of careful, probing admonitions about their erstwhile hero’s conduct, with as many chapters contemplating the signs of western contrtemps and double-dealing. And finally, in the final section entitled :Moamar, Who’s Man Is He? another 400 pp. of alternating hagiography and cryptic paean, and then sorrowfully implicit rejection+addendum of a chronological list of his good deeds.

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 26 2011 1:42 utc | 58

no one supported him , you prick, but clearly you read no one but yourself & your dull vanity built for something broken

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 26 2011 1:52 utc | 60

& those chines cadre i witness each week mock the “useless & worthess knowledge” that our slothrop mistakes for comprehension or even worse, wisdom

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 26 2011 1:59 utc | 62

And as for Iran, it was “color” revolution conspiracy period, for you.
The road to cure the solopsist passes by numerous contradictions. You should be thankful I point them out to you.

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 26 2011 2:13 utc | 64

personally i think brian and denk should be put on a diet. or they could simply start there own blog.

Posted by: annie | Feb 26 2011 4:18 utc | 66

well B last time i looked i wasnt wearing a tinfoil hat…but you seem to be, as youve completley ignored the evidence i posted that this is a COLOUR REVOLUTION.
You need to address the questions posted above..esp the nature of the NFSL: a known terrorist organisation backed by the CIA.
what we are seeing is a colour revolution(what colour were yet to be told)..these are only succesful if they can get their target govts to us violence, and or be perceived to use it; and have MSM support…
which brings us to Aljazeeras role:
‘Now, there’s nothing wrong with talking about Libya if the purpose is to convey accurate information about it. But there is everything wrong with making propaganda about it in such a way as to put its people at risk. And I’m afraid that’s exactly what Al Jazeera has begun to do. Both in Arabic and English, it has been featuring leading members of the National Front for the Salvation of Libya, an outfit funded by the CIA and Saudi Arabia during the Cold War, as credible sources of news and views, much as the Western media have been doing.2
That is bad enough. Yesterday, Al Jazeera hit a new low: it gave the self-styled “Crown Prince” of Libya — Muhammad as-Senussi — a platform from which to call on “the international community to help remove Gaddafi from power and stop the ongoing ‘massacre’.” By the “international community,” of course he doesn’t mean those of us who might organize protests at Libyan embassies or that kind of thing. He means the great and not-so-great powers that may be persuaded to deploy their armed forces in Libya.
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/furuhashi250211.html
so rather than sneer at the messenger of dissident news, you do better to debate it.

Posted by: brian | Feb 26 2011 5:01 utc | 68

Bevin:
‘It is most unlikely that the “west” is involved in destabilising Ghaddafi. Their interest is in the demonstration by as dictator of king somewhere that revcolution can be put down by violence’
well Bevin..if youd read my posts thats the conclusion youd have to reach. your knowledge of Gadaffi or western coups is pretty piss poor.

Posted by: brian | Feb 26 2011 5:06 utc | 70

‘The CIA has absolutely no interest in seeing Q gone. Since 2004, he’s been their Man in Tripoli.
Posted by: Night Owl | Feb 25, 2011 11:44:16 AM | 40’
what gives you the idea the US wants Gadaffi to stay in power? when we have this:
‘Libyan opposition literally running protests from Washington.
Please note the “EnoughGaddafi.com” signs. EnoughGaddafi.com’s
webmaster is listed on the US State Department’s Movements.org as
the “Twitter” to follow.
When Qaddafi’s son, Saif al-Islam, accused foreigners and opposition groups of fomenting unrest within Libya, it appears no truer words have been spoken. It is not surprising BBC and the rest of the corporate owned media went through extensive measures to discredit his speech.
Unbelievable revelations have been discovered regarding the unrest in Libya. The leader of Libya’s opposition group organizing the protests both inside and outside of Libya, is currently in Washington D.C. as he and his organization direct the upheaval and bedlam consuming the North African nation.
etc
http://empirestrikesblack.com/2011/02/libya-the-rest-of-the-story/

Posted by: brian | Feb 26 2011 5:11 utc | 72

It is not surprising BBC and the rest of the corporate owned media went through extensive measures to discredit his speech.
Not hard to discredit that speech. All you have to do is show it.
When Qaddafi’s son, Saif al-Islam, accused foreigners and opposition groups of fomenting unrest within Libya, it appears no truer words have been spoken.
How nice of you to catapult the Q’s propaganda for him.
You know, I understand Libyan State TV has suddenly found itself with a number of job openings. I’m sure you could snag a temporary gig writing copy.

Posted by: Night Owl | Feb 26 2011 5:55 utc | 74

What is also apparently lost in translation is your article’s author Oliver Miles’ position as deputy chairman of the Libyan British Business Council.

Posted by: Night Owl | Feb 26 2011 6:36 utc | 76

You got rhetoric, brian. The article at clearinghouse was not up to their standards. It looked pretty weak to me.

Posted by: Copeland | Feb 26 2011 6:59 utc | 78

Copeland: looking weak and being weak are two different things
did you read the pravda post on the questions?

Posted by: brian | Feb 26 2011 7:42 utc | 80

It is not surprising BBC and the rest of the corporate owned media went through extensive measures to discredit his speech.
Not hard to discredit that speech. All you have to do is show it.

lol, you don’t say! thanks for the comic relief night owl.

Posted by: annie | Feb 26 2011 8:01 utc | 82

Even through the chatter, thanks for Rick’s comment and rememberinggiap, your response. Most sensible thing I’ve read in ages. Link to Rick above here.
There have been a lot of comments back and forth, I enjoy seeing these new voices, they are such a contrast to the usual suspects, you know who you are.
But it is always nice to hear something interesting instead of an argument so I raise my glass to you all.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 26 2011 8:46 utc | 84

what is interesting, or parenthetically so in france – is the absolute confusion of the ‘experts’ on the middle east – with the exception perhaps of north africa but even then there have been so many dumb things said – r giap at 49
R giap knows this, others may not.
The state apparatus in F is in open revolt against Sarko and the top echelons.
In the past few weeks, the judiciary, the diplomats, the police – the medicos and teachers have given up for the moment – have implemented actions against the top levels of Gvmt.
Sadly, strikes in France only hit the international press when bus drivers jam traffic or famers close the Champs Elysees with beets and rotting tomatoes. Or bleating goats.
Judges and ‘procs’ (like DA) have protested, written collective letters, done slow downs, etc.. Lawyers of all stripe are up in arms, the blogs are burning, the diplomatic circuit is in semi open revolt – with an open letter in one of the main papers. Maybe about to split.
The last, a few days ago, was a silent demo of 187 prison directors. These ppl never strike, mostly because they cannot, due to their holding function, the risk of being away. This is completely unprecedented.
The corruption at top echelons (various *minister*’s ties to Ben Ali, Mubarak, and Kadafi) are simply appalling, and coming out. The French presence in N Africa, their old colonial outposts, are exposed as a nexus of the rich, the arms industry, circuits of influence, huge money making deals in housing and banking and so on, corruption, fake media moves, co-opting of ‘humanitarians’, etc. (Leaving bunga-bunga out, it is too disgusting.)
Sarko destroyed whatever serious scholarship, diplomacy, > the ME existed before.
Anecdote. The police in Geneva are on ‘strike’. They have no right to do so, so they drop the uniform, recommend ear rings, and have given up shaving (following the Belgians who are protesting for the creation of a new Gvmt..) and no longer ‘ticket’ anyone. I haven’t seen a ‘proper’ policeman for a month. One of their bullet points is support for their French colleagues, and coordination with them. Or to …have the frontier closed!

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 26 2011 15:03 utc | 86

Until then, thats a pretty weak effort to defend your turgid attacks on Gadaffi: ‘he must be lying cause he has links to Libya’!
No brian, he is probably lying because he has links to BP, Shell, Exxonmobil, HSBC, JPMorgan and plenty more oligarchic institutions which have every interest in seeing Q remain in power.
But thank you for posting an article which so thoroughly discredits your main thesis that the CIA is behind the Libyan revolution.
After all, if the PTB were truly interested in overthrowing Q, why would they be trotting out their own flacks to defend him?

Posted by: Night Owl | Feb 26 2011 16:38 utc | 88

the paper, thanks for the elucidation – it’s more than i am getting from aje – & the only link i have found useful from brian is the mrzine link which has been my experience in watching both al jazeera in arabic & english – it has been a dog’s breakfast & it is very hard to believe their absence of coverage on bahrain & iraq in the last few days was just because of the immediacy of events in libya – because in fact like all 24/24 they repeat all the time, adding very little information
what has been helpful to me, is to see the family gaddaffi speak – because it is in their allocutions, that their fall is most clearly written

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 26 2011 19:19 utc | 90

Unlike Egypt, in Libya we can’t see a well-defined revolutionary force that is prepared to create their own democracy and rebuild the country constitutionally. What hangs in the balance are all the institutional changes that will be necessary. Real democracy is always a work in progress; and a liberated people will always have to watch their own backs. The corporate thieves and the scoundrels of the empire are thinking, already, about how they can turn chaos and sectarianism to their particular ends.

Posted by: Copeland | Feb 26 2011 19:52 utc | 92

copeland
yes

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 26 2011 20:01 utc | 94

regarding Gaddafi’s being a US puppet, plese consider the following chart of oil exports (2006, but still valid), taken from your-insights.blogspot.com
I don’t think the Cia can stage a revolution, but it can very well stage a coup, given adequate internal allies: I hope everyone agrees on this!
So on Libya, my guess is the following:
1) the “revolution”, if there ever was one, rapidly fizzled out in Tripoli
2) probably unrelated to #1, or only loosely related, a coup (by elements of the armed forces from rival tribes) took place in Bengazi, that’s why the violence there resembled that of a civil war
3) soon we’ll see BP and others take italian Eni’s place in Libya’s oil and gas industry – but the West must dispose of Gaddafi first, who might be a loser in the short term, but a very tough one to unseat

Posted by: claudio | Feb 26 2011 23:52 utc | 96

inner city press: In UN Libya Resolution, US Insistence on ICC Exclusion Shields Mercenaries

UNITED NATIONS, February 26 — After passage of a compromise Libya resolution by the UN Security Council on Saturday night, Inner City Press asked French Permanent Representative Gerard Araud if mercenaries aren’t let off the hook by the sixth operative paragraph, exempting personnel from states not members of the International Criminal Court from ICC prosecution.
Araud regretted the paragraph, but said the the United States had demanded it.
…
Here is the US-demanded paragraph:

6. Decides that nationals, current or former officials or personnel from a State outside the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya which is not a party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of that State for all alleged acts or omissions arising out of or related to operations in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya established or authorized by the Council, unless such exclusive jurisdiction has been expressly waived by the State.

Posted by: b real | Feb 27 2011 3:28 utc | 98

one annoyance of MoA redux has been the way it has fallen into the same hole as all the other boards which claim to “encourage debate”. That is posters no longer talk to each other, they take positions and argue them with lots of ad hominem spite, until everyone gets so sick of the same tired cliches being vomited & shat back and forwards they move on to the next big thing.
Which is most usually some other horror show in a part of the world sufficiently distant for the “commenters” to feel comfortable pronouncing judgment on. So whatever position they take can’t come back and bite them in the bum. I’m sure some may say that this gives them objectivity, but it also gives them a callous disregard for the people most likely to be effected by their sweeping statements.
I find this difficult – many of these ‘distant lands’ everyone else seems happy to declaim about (while passing stupid judgments against those who disagree) have been subjects of interest to me since I was a schoolkid. Some I have visited, others have joined my family and yet others I have developed friends either within or from and I have to say the close minded pronouncements echoed here are sickening to read. Sure AJE or the bbc can find some ‘ex-pat’ happy to spout on on one tack or another, but if you talk to most Libyan exiles, you will find they spout the same sort of stuff Iraqis cried & the networks ignored before the 03 invasion of Iraq. That is that they don’t care a damn for either ‘side’ all they want is their friends and family safe, for this to end asap with the least bloodshed, and since foreign intervention increases the blood shed, without fail; they would much rather have none of that, for either side.
Most peeps here are shouting for the ousting of Gaddafi, which at first glance seems fair enough he is a dictator and no one likes dictators, simply because no matter how benevolent they started out (and Ghadaffi was loved by most for a long time) power always corrupts and dictators inevitably become tyrants.
The problem in Libya is the same as anywhere else. That is that most commonly tyrants get replaced by tyrants – worse tyrants at that. The reasons are logical if you stop to consider them. A bad bastard will do anything to gain or hold power, so the only thing that could possibly defeat him would be someone with less scruple than he. Someone who cares less for the people than the other side usually wins the fight, other things being reasonably equal, which despite western media assertion to the contrary appears to be the case in Libya.
The reason Gaddafi was so popular initially, was that he didn’t belong to the major tribes which had dominated the region for hundreds of years.
Eastern Libya, home of the current insurrection is also home base of king Idris, the Senussi. It is worth noting that Prince Muhammad bin Sayyid Hassan as-Senussi, the last King’s great nephew has been popping up in Bloomberg and elsewhere making pronouncements about the need to ‘get rid of Gaddafi”.

Libyan Prince Muhammad bin Sayyid Hassan as-Senussi said that the country’s tribes are united against Muammar Qaddafi, who ousted Senussi’s great-uncle in a 1969 coup, and that there is no risk of civil war.
“The Libyan people and the tribes have proven they are united,” and talk of civil war has been “created by the regime to spread fear,” as-Senussi said in a telephone interview from London today. He said massacres are being carried out by pro- Qaddafi forces.

He would say that of course, Ghadaffi is de bloke who gave ‘Unc Idris’ the flick. A damn shame this internet thing isn’t properly indexed. As a kid I remember reading a book by a wanna-be Richard Burton (no not the actor, the english explorer) who spent a lot of time in North Africa between the first and second world wars. He claimed to have been through what is now Libya just after the Italians invaded when Mussolini decided ‘rome’ needed a new empire. This explorer bloke reckoned that the Italians executed some 16,000 prisoners of war (the local army & home guard militia survivors who got rounded up after the spagetti blitzkreig). They died due to blood loss from castration. The invaders then set about implanting italian seed in the time honoured post invasion manner, by rape. This is pretty typical of old school western invasions of unwhite nations, although we don’t like to talk about it in front of the the ladies.
The Sanussis sat down and did business with those rapists and murderers afterwards. This was why when Ghadaffi took over (at that time most people could still remember what the whitefellas and Sanussis got up to last time) he was immensely popular. Not so much now, at least in part because all those oldfellas are dead.
Ghadaffi is most likely not a semite, the so called Qaddafi tribe survived by linking with the largest tribe, the Warfalla, who had considerable influence in the Senussi epoch when they served as cabinet ministers. Gaddafi’s heritage is more African, or Berber, than semitic, which is one of the reasons the rebels have been carrying on about the skin colour of the troops still loyal to Ghadaffi.
The western media turns that into proof that Zimbabwe (or insert name of other african nation at the bottom of this week’s shitlist) has sent mercenaries. Within Libya that is pure dogwhistle. Sent out to semitic Arabs who are well aware that like most North African nations (the Sudan being the prime example) Libya has an underclass of blacker people. The message that Warfalla/Sannussi’s are sending out inside Libya is that the blackfella’s (being led by that mongrel Gaddafi) are trying to take over ‘their’ country just as the blacks took over a big chunk of the Sudan.
Ghadaffi fell out with the Warfalla back in 1993 when they tried to wrest control for themselves via a coup, and since then they have been trying to get back, what could be more natural than signing up with their old mates the Sanussis?
The dog whistle has the effect of ensuring that the other Arab tribes don’t start worrying about the way they were treated when the Sanussis last had control, cause they worry about the blackfellas taking over instead.
The senussi are a bad mob, they are based in Benghazi -what a surprise?. They did business with the amerikans (when they had attacked Tripoli way back in 1815), and the Ottomans, and the Italians (when everyone else resisted Mussolini’s mob, the senussi hung back and waited till the italians got close to Senussi lands, then did a deal for the whole of Libya), then same same with USuk after WW2. They did their usual trick of selling their people out to the highest bidder. Operating as a colonial ‘agent’ or governor in return for a percentage. Does anyone really think that the amerikan corporatists who control the department of state and the amerikan military are gonna pick old Muammar ahead of a Senussi if they get a chance of deciding who controls Libya? Gaddafi has a bit of baggage as far as they are concerned, whereas Senussi have a history of ass kissing. They ‘understand’ ‘the realities’ ie take their share and use it to ensure no one else can cause any trouble.
Since the warfalla are the largest tribe in Libya, when the first election is held it will be exactly as someone else at moa described voting without protections. Two wolves (the Warfalla plus the other major semitic tribes Magariha etc ) and a sheep (the berber/ africans) voting on who to have for dinner.
There is no good guy here and there is no bad guy. Unfortunately this revolt has been split on ethnicity right from the start. The reasons are complex. When peeps got the shits with ghaddafi they gathered around those shouting the loudest and the bulk of outside support to the anti-ghaddafi forces has always gone to the tribal supremacists. The only alternatives which foreign outsiders, who badly need to stay out of this as Libya is a classic example of exactly how rebellions/revolutions become unbalanced by outside influences, could easily find, & who were prepared to fight Ghadaffi, were the Islamists, the commies or the Sanussis.
Sure Muammar had been doing some business with USuk but that business over al-Megrahi went down like a lead balloon in london & dc. What Ghaddafi saw as politics (threatening that if al Megrahi didn’t cop compassionate early release, there would be an appeal against a conviction which should never have got through the gate once, and would certainly be overturned on appeal, thereby opening up an particularly embarrassing can of worms. Read objective un-amerikan sourced accounts of the trial -by the end a lot of victims’ families who had gone in wanting a death sentence, came away concerned they had been made party to a fit up) USuk saw as blackmail. Why couldn’t Ghaddafi just accept that some people are born to take the rough end of the pineapple and al-Megrahi was a classic case of that?. Incidentally if al-Megrahi lives longer than Gaddafi’s reign a highly likely scenario, watch that space. As part of the agreement to be set free, al-Megrahi signed a release promising not to appeal his conviction. I guarantee that amerikan “justice” will find a way to overturn al-Megrahi’s release while at the same time upholding the part of the agreement which ends further appeals. Anyone up for a wager? No. I didn’t think so.
The trouble is al Megrahi is a Magariha and a highly respected one at that; which is a reason why Ghadaffi got him back.
So when the seppos give al Megrahi the old rendition bizzo, the whole tribal coalition thingy is gonna fracture before they get the plug up his ass. This will please the shit outta the foreign imperialists cause dividing up the home-base is what those fellas know and love, but it won’t be too good for the average Libyan who will see a big “blue” looming on the horizon
Back to the ‘debate’ in here.
C’mon lets get real; who would Joe Briefcase fresh outta Tufts be most likely to select as their man in Tripoli from a choice between commies, islamofascists, or redneck racist old money aristocracy? The berbers and africans aren’t particularly united so they would be outta the equation for that without this other bizness. That is I suppose they could have been a fourth option except it has only been since Ghaddafi took over they have had much influence at all, so you’d hafta think that on balance they would rather continue to back Muammar the devil they know, ahead of the old gang who fucked em over for a thousand years.
al-Megrahi isn’t why seppos want shot of Ghaddafi, but it tells them how much easier life would be if they had a less reluctant ass licker
As for berbers who are just as freedom loving as the next human, they are truly between the rock and that other place. Why go with Ghaddafi?
All you amerikan dem loving pseudo leftists should know the answer here. The berbers may not like Muammar much but I bet they’ve got a saying along the lines of the current soundbite used by obama-ites. “you are trying to make perfect the opposite of good” ie Muammar is not perfect but in comparison to those evil rethug/sannussis- they think he is the bees knees.
Brian and denk make good points about the inherent dangers of USuk interference on the side of the anti-Ghaddafists, giap’s posts of Fidel’s view is closest to humane, others point out the horrors of life under ghaddafi which is also an issue of humanity, but few of you are listening to each other – most seem to be too busy. Just determined to ‘win’ some stupid argument that involves real humans and the lives they will live or die with. The fact that none of you are gonna be the least bit affected by the outcome of this mess, imo makes the gameplaying a sickening display of ugly egoism. And yeah we’ve all done it but there is a difference between exploring points of difference as a way to understanding what the fuck is happening, and using others’ misery to win an argument, whose only reward is egoism -‘bragging rights’.
Still I suppose it must be nearly time to move on to something else. “Hey anyone hear of any other trainwreck about to happen?” /cynic
P.S. as per usual this will contain all sorts of spellings of all sorts of words, spellchick is forever tryin to impose its will when all it needs to do is ensure I don’t fuck up ’embarassing’ or ‘committee’ – what I’m tryin to say is anyone who gets their tits in a tangle about how some word has been writ here should take it up with the ‘proper authorities’. same goes for those who imagine I am paying insufficient heed to the “conspiracy du jour”.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 27 2011 4:21 utc | 100