Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 7, 2011
Diplomats Not Getting Religion

An intercession, a request to one's god to do something, is certainly not direct action. Asking one's god for another persons health is different from performing open heart surgery on that person. Intercessions are done daily, all over the world, without harming anyone. They are, by definition, spiritual.

But that is something U.S. diplomats in Erbil do not understand. In an embassy cable the diplomats write:

For a four-week period after the Israeli actions against Gaza commenced, certain religious leaders in the Kurdistan Region used their Friday sermons to exhort their congregations to acts of violence against Jews, Israel and the supporters of Israel.

What acts of violence were requested by these religious leaders?

Did they ask their congregations to bomb Israel like Israel bombed Gaza? Did they incite them to personally fight any Jew? Did they ask for suicide bomber volunteers? No. They did nothing like that.

On December 5 an Imam prayed for the Palestinian people and asked God to rain his anger at the Jewish people and destroy them. On December 5, at another mosque, the congregation was prompted to pray that God would destroy Israel and kill all the Jewish people. On January 16 an Imam told his followers "we should pray that God will destroy all the Jewish people." During his prayer, he asked God to kill the Jews one by one until none of them was left alive. He also prayed that God would "kill those who support the country of Israel as well."

An evangelical prayer leader asking his congregation to pray for the soon arrival of the end of times is not exhorting to acts of violence. A shia prayer leader asking his congregation to pray for the soon arrival of the Mahdi is not exhorting to acts of violence. A catholic priest asking to pray to god for the punishment of sinners is not exhorting acts of violence.

But the requests of the Kurdish Imams to pray for god to do something about Israel were taken as dangerous and the U.S. diplomats immediately contacted three different Kurdish ministries to have the Imams silenced. The puppets followed through and the Imams were forbidden to preach.

Such suppression of quite moderate expression of outrage, by requesting prayers for god to act rather than to call for direct action, will likely further more extreme positions and will push the more enraged believers into the political underground.

It is stupid and a mistake. That U.S. diplomats, especially in the Middle East, are unable to understand the  basic concept of intercession which is used in most religions is a disgrace. Or maybe not. Maybe they need to do so to keep the "war of terror" alive.

Comments

is it time for this now?

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 7 2011 7:30 utc | 1

Sorry to be pedantic, but intercession is spelt with a ‘c’. With an ‘s’, it’s a different word. I was trying to think what sort of session could be ‘inter’, and remaining puzzled.

Posted by: alexno | Jan 7 2011 10:01 utc | 2

By the way, I wanted to add how pleased I am that MoA has opened up again. It was always my favourite debating ground, where I discovered lots of things.

Posted by: alexno | Jan 7 2011 10:06 utc | 3

I’m with juannie on this corrections thing. English is not b’s first language but I have never had any trouble comprehending his posts. Can’t say the same for pedantry though which I often wonder has some sort of agenda that has nothing to do with clarifying the statement, especially not in a world where so many seem to regard the act of educating as an exercise in power.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 7 2011 10:46 utc | 4

The corrections are welcome as long as they are not too pedantic like down to the last comma. I am using the simple firefox spell correction but that of course doesn’t see a mistake in “here” versus “hear” of “intersession” vs. “intercession”. Let me know of such typos and I’ll correct it.

Posted by: b | Jan 7 2011 11:43 utc | 5

1) I’m glad b is willing to have spelling errors pointed out.
2) Nevertheless, I disagree with his point here. I think the diplomats are right to regard praying to God for result X as being substantially similar to encouraging the congregation to participate in making X happen. I attend religious services regularly, and among my fellow congregants it is considered meritorious to give God a helping hand in getting those things done which we pray for.
3) I too am glad MoA has reopened.

Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. | Jan 7 2011 14:48 utc | 6

“…among my fellow congregants it is considered meritorious to give God a helping hand in getting those things done which we pray for….”
…presumably to include exterminating jews who dont convert to christianity in the deathwish christian end times.

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 7 2011 15:09 utc | 7

“…I have never had any trouble comprehending his posts.”
Nor have I. I merely thought he would like to know. No criticism, as I think b has a better grasp on things than most. But I feel that of all the moonbats…lol

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 7 2011 15:19 utc | 8

Interesting. I believe Iraq has (or did have) a ‘hate speech’ and ‘incitement to violence’ law. Can intercessory prayer, or a call to it, qualify? The prayer itself, if performed silently / aloud, alone or at home with family – clearly not. Probably not either if performed in a place of worship. At least, not so in Swiss law, which is a standard sort of European one. The public nature and ‘incitement’ aspect appears to be missing. (Contrast: political speech with large audience, exhorting on the TV, writing and distributing a pamphlet.) But a call for it, made, arguably, in public, in front of a large audience? A call not to act but to pray? Mmm. The argument for the prosecution would be that wishing (hoping, praying, etc.) may lead to action, or instills a mind set that can promote terrorism, etc.
Now I’m being pedantic! (also, for one’s files, the correct adj. is intercessory.) And boring, because it doesn’t matter, any anti-Israel or anti-Jewish speech, sign, symbol, sentence, tract, and probably soon thought, is blasphemy in our times.

Posted by: Noirette | Jan 7 2011 16:46 utc | 9

this reminds me of the topdog rabbi in israel last year saying he wished god would kill all the arabs w/a plague. this is what religious extremists do. i don’t like this kind of talk much but i’m wondering if the ambassador shot off a cable to the state department when it happened in israel?
i liked this from the cable:

Most Kurds accept the right of Kurdish leadership to curb extremist messages and to clamp down on religious leaders whose words and actions are seen to threaten the Region,s security. Nonetheless, congregations can resent the government,s control over religious messages. For example, when a popular preacher in Suleymaniya (who had criticized the new Personal Status Law) was replaced with another Imam (whose Friday message was &pray for rain8), many disgruntled worshippers pointedly walked out of the mosque. Given the strong pro-American sentiment in the Region, visits would be well received and reinforce government efforts to maintain the Kurdistan Region,s tradition of moderate and tolerant Islam. End comment.

funny
ok, wrt the spelling posts? i wasn’t aware of the here/hear mistake until i read about it in the comment section yesterday, it must have flown right past me. and although i know what an intervention is i have no recollection of intercepting the word intercession before. possibly my lack of religious upbringing or just an in general inadequate vocabulary. i know what it is now tho. b probably has a better handle on the english language than i do and yes i find the the comments a tad annoying but it’s not my blog.

Posted by: annie | Jan 7 2011 17:25 utc | 10

b probably has a better handle on the english language than i do

I know he communicates valuable thinking and insights in my native language in a way I only wish I could. I pick up on some of his slight errors occasionally but not always, but when I do I usually always find they add a sense of charm to his writings. I also appreciate the very civil way this topic has been discussed here. Thanks y’all.

Posted by: juannie | Jan 7 2011 17:49 utc | 11

annie, the closest oil of any decent quantity to israel is in kurdish iraq… and israelis have been cultivating the kurds, and have a big population of kurds in israel from which they can recruit agents.
netanyahu said, “It won’t be long when you will see Iraqi oil flowing to Haifa.”
god knows what else israel has promised the kurds, but if we’re to judge by ravin’ ralph peters’ map, the kurds will get their own country, which just happens to include a big chunk of turkey
well, f*ck a bunch of turks

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 7 2011 18:05 utc | 12

i spose we’ll figure out in the long run what the hell these people are thinking… it’s awful hard to believe they’re as stupid as they seem to be, unless they’re simply that desperate because they realize this is the last chance, before oil shortages hamstring their american armies, to secure israel.
but it’s got to boil down to factions: it’s the last chance for the religious nuts, and the looters are using the nuts for cover.

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 7 2011 18:15 utc | 13

…or maybe it’s just a demonstration of the idiocy of racial/religious supremacism… or a combination of all the above, plus a few factions i dont know about.
it adds up to massive stupidity, whatever it is.

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 7 2011 18:19 utc | 14

there’s nothing as stupid, and nothing as convinced of his own superiority, no other living creature that is so furiously impotent, as a bull calf.
we will eventually get back far enough so everyone will understand what i’m talking about.
netanyahu

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 7 2011 19:39 utc | 15

I certainly agree that one should not be hard on b for spelling errors, English not being his native language. And certainly not me, who works in a non-English-speaking country. Most of my work is conducted in French, and I have to deal all the time with people whose English is so-so.
I certainly regretted having made comment 2, when I later discovered the issue had come up on the previous thread, but I let it stand because I had to go to work, and at the limit I was genuinely confused as to what was being said for a while. But I should have withdrawn the remark in retrospect.

Posted by: alexno | Jan 7 2011 21:08 utc | 16

On the story itself, there’s another element that is not being made explicit. The Kurdish Regional Government is doing all it can to suck up to the US, because it wants the US to stay in Iraq. That is why future sermons of that kind were forbidden, not because of the American intervention. People have to be kept in line.
If it had been the Iraqi government in Baghdad, they would have told the US diplomats to piss off. The Iraqi government is working to get the US out. Probably with success.

Posted by: alexno | Jan 7 2011 21:23 utc | 17

@12
and have a big population of kurds in israel from which they can recruit agents.
That’s not right. There are not a lot of Kurds in Israel. In fact I’ve never heard of any. Though no doubt there some. There were few Jews in Kurdistan before the departure.
No, the Israeli intervention in Kurdistan is part of their Arab-periphery policy. Stir up any potential conflicts between non-Arab peoples and an Arab state, in order to weaken that state and prevent it opposing Israel.
The traces of Israeli advice are everywhere in Kurdish policy. But that does not mean that Kurds, on a personal level, like Israel, as this story shows. There is a split between government policy and popular feeling.

Posted by: alexno | Jan 7 2011 21:57 utc | 18

kurd population israel
meanwhile, the kurds will export their oil via turkey, and bibi and his pipedreams of kurdish oil to haifa will be left to…
more stupidity

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 0:55 utc | 19

For what its worth, I agree with b’s position on this. Praying for an enemies downfall is not an act of physical aggression or even a call to action for others. To argue against this position seems to proceed beyond denying freedom of speech, and attempts to constrain another’s feelings, thoughts and desires. On a personal level, if one is invoking prayer, the true course would be to pray for an enemy, not against him/her/them. That is not to be interpreted as praying for an enemy’s evil and harmful actions/goals.

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jan 8 2011 0:59 utc | 20

i guess we’re all praying for israel, then.
lord, let them see the light.
because if they dont see the light, we’ll have to wipe them out… if we’re to believe in our deathwish christian gurus.

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 1:03 utc | 21

it’s pathetic…
the boomers knew from the beginning how fucked up the system was, and then grew up and discovered it’s the only game in town… so they played, like good little boys and girls, and in the end, they’re being raped.
they knew better, but they played, and now they’re the losers… does that have anything to do with cosmic or karmic laws?

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 1:10 utc | 22

i guess we’re all praying for israel, then.
Israel who?

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jan 8 2011 1:36 utc | 23

israel freeman, who was a fat, loud helicopter pilot for air america in vietnam and laos.
he seemed to be having problems, when it came to rationalizing his job with his beliefs.

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 1:42 utc | 24

i just dont see how it’s possible to justify such stupidity.
people will conform, but they wont believe… and the problem comes when the “going through the motions” people are confronted with people who believe.

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 2:11 utc | 25

i guess you could exterminate everyone who isnt willing to go through the motions.
that might jeopardize jews’ claim to being the most holocausted people, though.
that wouldnt be such a good deal.

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 2:15 utc | 26

i got to say that air america was the most competent, best organized, most reality-based outfit i ever worked for.
so, an air america helicopter scrapes the US ambassador off the roof of the saigon embassy when we quit, and no amount of knowhow or technical prowess or whatever can change that fact.
now, we’re supposed to have unlimited faith that our machinery will overpower anyone who wont knuckle under.
god as a killing machine, confronted by people whose god has a different slant on things.
pretty comical.

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 3:02 utc | 27

flick #12. i big chunk of iran too. US/IS supports the ppk and pjak. they are banking on a big fat permanent US base in kurdistan. the peshmerga came in real handy wiping out the sunni resistance and implementing the cleansing of baghdad too.
‘free kurdistan’ on the new middle east map is huge footprint rivaling the size of the future (smaller turkey) it also reaches all the way up and touches the black sea. it’s represents a huge strategic land grab that would require a devastating war.
saddam suppressed religious fanatics before. i’m not a huge fan of religious fundies myself, of any persuasion. i don’t know how to judge this incident. when the imans start distributing pamphets declaring war on ethnic groups i think it is reasonable for the government to shut them down. same goes for books titled guide to killing that justifies killing babies. and will our embassies be sending off cables to DC? or be requested to ‘help’ tamper these fanatics?
probably not. they run wild.

Posted by: annie | Jan 8 2011 4:00 utc | 28

‘a’ big chunk of iran, sorry.

Posted by: annie | Jan 8 2011 4:01 utc | 29

the only possible way out is for some kind of armed truce that degenerates into muted hostility which degenerates into people breeding with their enemies… at which point it becomes so hard to figure out who to shoot that you give up and dont shoot anybody, because they might be a relative.
in the meantime, we got our benevolent global hegemonists arming everybody and his dog, and encouraging them to shoot anybody, if the shooting will make trouble that can be expoited to the hegemonists’ advantage.
dismal motherfuckers

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 4:11 utc | 30

b,
I disagree. This kind of sermons leads to violence against jews; as it is, those of them in Palestine will be getting their desserts sooner or later. The rest of them in other parts of the world, while tangentially responsible, will be broken when their dream country is gone. They don’t need to pay more than that,a loss of a cute and vile dream.
That kind of collective punishment will rationalise a whole lot of atrocities on other groups….later.
As it is, just talking about Vrat (resolution/Oath/fervour) managed to get Gandhi killed by Godse. Amping it up against entire groups is just a lot of trouble for grave diggers and priests.
Let the sermons stick to the greatness of their own religion and not a denigration of the other.
Oh, don’t forget, thumping the bible and reading about gays and stuff have got gay Africans killed, if I recollect last year’s news. By a couple of American evangelicals.

Posted by: shanks | Jan 8 2011 5:42 utc | 31

” This kind of sermons leads to violence against jews; as it is, those of them in Palestine will be getting their desserts sooner or later. The rest of them in other parts of the world, while tangentially responsible, will be broken when their dream country is gone.”
kinda hard to break a guy when he’s got a couple billion stashed away in a sleazy bank in switzerland or the bahamas.
dont you think it’s probable that anyone who really knows what’s going on has already written israel off?

Posted by: flickervertigo | Jan 8 2011 6:01 utc | 32


kinda hard to break a guy when he’s got a couple billion stashed away in a sleazy bank in switzerland or the bahamas.

Who?
I’m sorry, I don’t follow.

Posted by: shanks | Jan 8 2011 6:21 utc | 33

Looks like the congresswoman shot in Tucson may have been a victim of all the hate speech on TV/Radio and papers.
Weird timing, this post but then again,someone is killing someone out there everyday.

Posted by: shanks | Jan 9 2011 2:22 utc | 34