Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 20, 2009
Parviz: Khamenei’s Aura of Invincibility Shattered

[editorial note: I just received this email by MoA regular Parviz (not his real name) who lives in Iran and I decided to publish it immediately without any change or correction – b.]

Hi Bernhard,

Your monitoring has been atrocious but I submit the following as a new thread to redress the balance and compensate for all the doubts you have expressed about the genuineness and independence of Iran’s reform movement:

TITLE: Khamenei’s Aura of Invincibility Shattered

MoA threads and comments were so one-sided that I left the Blog, but I’ve decided to stop lurking and recommenced commenting out of a sense of responsibility to your armchair intellectuals, and especially in support of those non-Iranian posters (God bless them) who are continuing to ask the same questions I and others repeatedly asked and to which you pointedly refused to respond.

(Some examples:  How can you defend “counting” done in complete secret by security officials? What about Karroubi’s missing 7 million votes? What about the statement of powerful Ayatollahs in the Holy City of Qom – Grand Ayatollahs Montazeri, Sanei and the Qom Seminary — that the election was rigged? Why does the Guardian Council say it needs 10 days to check 10 % of votes when the ENTIRE election votes were allegedly counted in just one hour? Exactly how ‘random’ do you think those ‘samples’ will be? Why do all the titles of your threads invariably defend Khamenei/Ahmadinejad and cast doubts on Moussavi’s credibility and on the broad-based strength of the protest movement that reached 3 million on Thursday in Tehran alone? etc.,.):



Today I tried to participate in the peaceful demonstration (which is permitted under Article 27 of the very same Islamic Constitution that the Islamicists have subverted, meaning that no Interior Ministry permit is constitutionally necessary), and managed to walk past huge groupings of riot police, Revolutionary Guards and plainclothes militia (Baseej), plus huge numbers of Arab troops (I guess on loan from Hamas and Hezbollah), all heavily armed and wielding truncheons and other weapons. Near Tehran University (= 2 km from Enghelab Square where the peaceful demonstration was to occur) I was stopped by some ugly looking Baseej group which threatened to beat me and my friends up if we walked even one step further south.

When they drew their weapons we were forced to give up the venture, and the thugs probably inadvertently did my group a favour by turning us back before we could get anywhere near the proceedings, because many others who got through have been beaten up, many are missing and Tehran is in chaos and under military rule. I am now back home watching Al Jazeera that showed video footage of one young girl shot through the head by a sharpshooter, among other atrocities.

b, here is what the regime you inexcusably defend actually did today as reported by this eye-witness:
They had troops, Guards and militia stationed at every crossroads and along the length and breadth of every route from the very “upper-middle-class” North of Tehran down to Fadayeen Street (= a total area of about 200 square miles). I guess maybe up to one million regime “helpers” were involved in a Clausewitz-style show of overwhelming strength. This was because, as officially declared by the current Mayor of Tehran, the street protests reached a peak of 3 million on Thursday and were growing daily. As you correctly point out above (sometimes I can agree with you) the regime’s aim was to PREVENT millions of people reaching the focal point, so they could kill and maim and arrest the few who actually made it. They closed off all approaches to the Square and then (as evidenced by the latest videos) picked off the demonstrators like penned-in animals.

I believe (but have no proof) that the ‘coincidental’ bomb explosion near Khomeini’s tomb was set off by the regime itself as an excuse for an even harder crackdown. Khamenei mentioned the possibility of bombings at Friday Prayers, and right on cue the next day (today) such an event occurs 25 miles away from the demonstrators. Funny that it served the purpose of ‘desecrating’ Khomeini’s tomb even though the bomb went off outside, giving the regime the excuse it needed to label the opposition ‘Godless’ and escalate violence even further against these clearly peaceful protesters.

If the regime hadn’t cracked down so hard today the crowds in Tehran alone would have swelled to well over the earlier 3 million, as those not bribed/coerced by the regime are sick to death of 30 years of religious hypocrisy and misrule.

Anybody here still believe the Islamic regime is ‘democratic’? It’s a regime of thugs, run by thugs on behalf of thugs. Any help to Hamas and Hezbollah is not to help Palestinians but a) for leverage against the U.S., and b) to generate ‘coupons’ that they can use in situations like this. Everybody I spoke to today thought we were in Lebanon after seeing so many heavily armed Arabs in and around Ferdowsi Square and Chamran bridge.

The main thing is that the aura of invincibility and (God forbid) ‘Godliness’ about Khamenei has been shattered. This won’t end until the regime is either overthrown or reforms dramatically and becomes part of the Revolution.

Nobody I know gives a damn about the U.S. or Israel. We are all simply fed up.

Best wishes to all,

Parviz

[additional note: I do not have time today to respond to Parviz’ note, but I promise to do so tomorrow – b.]

Comments

I certainly sympathize with Parviz for being fed up. I would want change, too. The real question for Parviz is whether throwing out Khamenei/Ahmadinejad will bring any real change. Or will the Rafsanjani/Mousavi faction simply use the protests to take over the reins of the oil ministry and revolutionary guard and not implement anything more than a few token changes. As the richest person in Iran, does Rafsanjani have any history of truly supporting democracy, freedom and human rights.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that Rafsanjani would offer the real change being sought by the protesters. You simply do not get to be the richest man by caring about the people.

Posted by: JohnH | Jun 20 2009 19:16 utc | 1

Thank you, b.
Dubai TV just showed the alleged ‘bombing’ at the Khomeini Mausoleum. There was just one broken window and some shattered glass. No blood, nothing.
I’m sure Iranian state TV will sacrifice a sheep to make the event appear more authentic before filming and airing it. The event wasn’t shown even once on Iranian TV till now. I wonder why …

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 19:19 utc | 2

In asking who benefits, the Hariri assassination benefited parties opposed to Syria’s military presence in Lebanon. The Al-Askari bombing benefited parties that favored dividing the country – which does not include mainstream Sunnis but includes Israel and at the time included the United States that, at that time, needed a decentralized Iraq to keep bases at least in Kurdistan.
The bombing of the Khomeini’s shrine benefits the regime. Assuming it happened. It may actually have been conducted by an infiltrated terrorist group following the lead of a provocateur or it may have been a plot that came to the attention of the regime, where the regime made the decision that preventing it was not a priority. But the only party that could put together a suicide bombing in Tehran and that could plausibly believe it would advance their goal is the regime.
I’m happy to be on Parviz’ side on at least one issue.
A question for Parviz: What makes a soldier “Arab”? Transporting large numbers of troops from Lebanon to Tehran would be very difficult over a short period of time. And from Gaza, I can only assume that isn’t seriously believed by anyone.
Might these troops come from provinces of Iran?
Another question for Parviz: My guess now is that in the aftermath, proponents in the West of gasoline sanctions are being strengthened by this unrest. If the US goes back to its 2007 position that Iran must abandon uranium enrichment – and follows that up with somehow slowing Iran’s access to gasoline this time – do you think similar unrest would follow? Would you in those circumstances favor a suspension of enrichment?

Posted by: Arnold Evans | Jun 20 2009 19:20 utc | 3

JohnH, your comments are extremely valid. I guess my answer is that it could go either way, better or worse. But that’s irrelevant to tens of millions of Iranians. The fact is that when a regime becomes an eyesore to its own populace the people don’t think of how worse things can get; they simply want change.
You have no idea of the stifling level of corruption in my country. $ 100 billion of oil revenues last year mostly ‘disappeared’, unaccounted for. Even Khamenei admitted to the existence of massive corruption in yesterday’s Friday Prayers. But it’s not enough for a leader to admit something and then do exactly the opposite of what’s needed to correct it.
The demonstrators have been exceptionally restrained following Moussavi’s appeal, and with today’s events the regime has a temporary victory, including the ape who announced after being selected President “that the demonstrators are just a few thousand”. But, as the great Mahatma Gandhi said:
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 19:26 utc | 4

Arnold Evans,
They are defnitely Arabs and they had 24 hours to get here and get deployed. I’ve travelled all over Khuzestan and can tell the difference between an ‘Arab Iranian’ and a Lebanese or a Palestinian. It wasn’t just one face but a sea of faces, and they were clearly confused and didn’t look directly into our eyes, unlike the Baseej and Pasdaran.
Yes, sanctions will be increased and probably accelerated. At the same time there will be a General Strike, which was what crippled the Shah’s regime.
I know, I know, some on this Blog will repeat, like a stuck gramophone needle, that this proves the ‘revolution’ has been organized by the U.S., whereas the truth is that the strength and depth of the movement has taken everyone by surprise. Khamenei and AN (which means ‘donkey in Persian, which is why I’ll use it from now on) dismissed it as ‘nothing serious’ just yesterday!

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 19:37 utc | 5

Parviz, I have heard from a cousin that they are Arabs as well but he really couldn’t convince me.
I think it’s wishful thinking on the part of Iranians. What is you evidence?
Loyal, most of the information you post is semi-correct/with spin. I don’t have time to point out all the cases, using a mobile device.
Just a warning to the other readers. I don’t think you’re Iranian. Probably Farsi speaking Bahraini.
Also mousavi’s wife is ZahrahRahnavard not Zohreh Hashemi. Anyone following the campaign where AN insulted her would know this.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 19:39 utc | 6

parviz
please do not demean your argument with obvious untruths – the presence of hezbollah or hamas militias – that is a scandalous lie & it is clear that the repressive forces in iran need no such assistance nor could h & h offer it – any movement of significant levels of fighters is practically impossible – so i do not know why you pursue it.
you are in a conflict but your implied racism towards arabs is ignoble given the fact that they are a significant minority in your country – which would in itself provide presence of ‘arabs’ in tehranian streets
you suggest with no proof at all & i mean no proof at all – that it is the state which organised the explosion at the mausoleum. i doubt that very, very much
as i have noted – you are courageous to be son the streets today but the numbers reflect the ansence of a real mass movement – i will await the general strike moussavi has called to witness whether those people become engaged on the side the opposition. today there is absolutely no evidence of that & plenty of evidence to the contrary
i believe as does fisk – that ahmadinejad won but that the circle of power overplayed their card & i think khamenei has only amplified that error & in a country that is effectively under siege – it is an error – that while it might be explainable is disastrous
the election tho has become moot because what we are witnessing is shifts of power – but from where i sit – largely only among those in power
i understand well b’s point & yours that – the mass presence of the repressive apparatus can effect the numbers of those involved – but not really – if those numbers are what you claim them to be 2 to 3 million no repressive force on earth can mobilise against them without themselves falling & that does not include the fact that there are obviously elements within the police & army who are not entirely with the state, or are waverers in the wind – they wouldn’t be the first – no it simply suggest to me that this an elite war being enacted with the people doing the suffering
parviz i am not angry with you but with your arguments. & the way you treated loyal was beneath contempt but you have never hidden where you are from, what you want for iran, your position etc – on this you have been forthcoming since the beginning
wherever we come from we wish well for the people of iran but a great many of us need a strong iran in a world completely corrupted by us imperialism

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 19:40 utc | 7

Hhhmm–suddenly the margins are broken again, everything spread out, hard to read.
What Parviz is describing is “crowd control” that was practiced in NYC during the February ’03 anti-Bush’s Iraq Invasion.
I and my party arrived in NYC, began walking toward the East Side where the rally was being held, lots of people streaming the same direction. When we asked policemen on the corners for directions, we were instructed to kepp going east to Third Avenue and then walk north. We couldn’t miss it.
As we got close to Third Avenue, people were being funneled to actually head south; we were told there were so many people we had to join the end of the crowd by going south. Once we got to Third Avenue, initally we were kept to the sidewalks, then the police closed off the avenue to traffic, and we were told to go into the street and keep the sidewalsk open.
The next step was to set up a few police barricades, then lines of police standing shoulder to shoulder, so that we were cut into corrals or pens of a block each. Suddenly we were broken into quarters and pushed into triangular masses in each corner of the block. There were barricade behind us, cops in front. Then, block by block, the mounted police galloped into the block and the horse were used to crush the triangles of people into smaller and smaller spaces.
On our block, we got a slight reprieve, as when the mounted police charge began one horse slipped on the ice and went down. (Initial news reports were that protesters had caused the hose to fall; nope, just poor judgement on the part of police officials who didn’t think about the ice on some areas of the avenue).
(it’s getting hard to see what I’ve typed, please forgive typos)
Anyway, people who lived in the neighborhood, who were out shopping or walking, were treated as if they were protesters. In my trianble crush, children were sobbing and screaming as they felt greater and greater pressue. It seemed an insane thing to do, but I now realize the officials were using the event and crowd overflow as a training opportunity for crowd control tactics.
No one in my group was hit, but some were where some (younger and more fearless) protesters tried to break out. But I did not see that, only read about first person accounts so cannot be sure that even happened.
I think Parviz is experiencing several orders of magnitude higher pressure and force, to put it mildly. But crownd control tactics are becoming the same worldwide, I think.

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 20 2009 19:41 utc | 8

Notice the anti-Arab racism that permeates the Iranian dissident rants. This is not just an Iranian thing, it is a Middle Eastern thing. Racism, classicism, and sectarianism run rampant throughout the region.
This is a key understanding of the Neocons. They know that one just has to kick out a few legs from a Middle Eastern regime, and then let nature take its course as the country turns into a group of squabbling foes. Within a short time, the country turns its attention inward and away from the Palestinians.
Reading Parviz’s post, I can’t help but think of the late Vladimir Lenin.

Posted by: Tom | Jun 20 2009 19:44 utc | 9

r’giap,
“if those numbers are what you claim them to be 2 to 3 million no repressive force on earth can mobilise against them without themselves falling”
The above statement is precisely why I returned to the Blog: There are too many of you, too far away, pontificating from the safety of your homes/offices, without a clue about the intimidation that existed today AT EVERY STREET CORNER. If what you theorize above were true it wouldn’t have taken the Soviet Union 75 years to disintegrate, would it?

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 19:46 utc | 10

P.S., No, I’m not brave: I was scared shitless, and even more scared after I learned of what actually happened.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 19:47 utc | 11

Tom, wasn’t he the leader of a color revolution?
Yes there is anti-Arabism among Iranians and it’s ugly. Not different from anti-russianism among finns or anti-turkism among Greeks. Neighbors with history and similarity hate eachother. I don’t expect Americans to understand this. I don’t justify it either, only explain.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 19:50 utc | 12

parviz
you insist & continue – & i am not so sure you why you are repeating an obvious lie. the only arabs in tehran today are iranians & please in my long life & today her in france have many many arab friends & have many iranian friends who are from all parts of iran – please do not allow racism to make your argument ridiculous. you were casually cruel to loyal in the same dismissive manner – you have more in common with slothrop than you think
by this insistence on the presence of hamas & hezbollah you are arriving at the endgame of your arguments because if you have to use such lies as arguments of merit you are in serious trouble
if there is a general strike & i would not be surprised if that did not happen – tho i think unnecessary violence by the state could bring that about rather than limiting it – then we can speak of my arguments as being without reason but until that moment – i shall continue to be cautious

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 19:51 utc | 13

You have no idea of the stifling level of corruption in my country.
Your naivete is breathtaking. A revolution sponsored by the undisputed king of corruption in Iran (Rafsanjani) will not reduce corruption. There is a stifling level of corruption in EVERY Middle Eastern country. This is not a feature of one particular government or country. It’s a feature of the broader culture.
On second look, seeing you heap scorn on the two least corrupt political groups in the Middle East (Hamas and Hezbollah) raises the question of whether you are being naive or in fact dishonest.

Posted by: Tom | Jun 20 2009 19:55 utc | 14

r’giap:
“a great many of us need a strong iran in a world completely corrupted by us imperialism”.
Did I ever contradict the above in any of my writings since I joined the Blog a year ago? Your problem is that you support any thuggish regime as long as it’s anti-imperialist, whereas I believe that Iran is weakening so fast from within that it will end up like the USSR, partitioned, and then neither able to help Palestine nor confront the U.S.. Your steadfast support of a corrupt dictatorship crumbling from within won’t help your various causes one little bit.
And as for my anti-Arabism (but not anti-Iranian Arabism), well how can you blame me when they have attacked us repeatedly throughout history (most recently from 1980-88 with one million dead) while we have not attacked them even once? We haven’t attacked anyone in 250 years, unlike just abouteveryone else on this planet.
And I have never seen such faces on any of my travels throughout the South of Iran, from Ahwaz to Assaluyeh to Qeshm. So don’t try and discredit statements you know nothing about. And why shouldn’t Hezbollah help a regime that’s ploughed billions of dollars into it?

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 19:55 utc | 15

it is simple, very simple parviz – the weight of a general strike is enormous, remains enormous. the arguments that you & i make will stand & fall – on the presence or absence of such a strike

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 19:55 utc | 16

Tom,
There’s rafsnjani type corruption, and then there is Sepah (irgc) type corruption with ownership all industry and oil and bonyad in Iran.
Your naïveté is breathtaking
I dream of the days when it’s just Rafsanjani pocketting 50mil here and there. Most Iranians understand this.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 19:59 utc | 17

r’giap, we agree 100 % on something at last. The General Strike will definitely occur and it’s my sole hope for change.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 20:02 utc | 18

please, will you stop persisting in this argument. you presume what i do & do not know. & you are wrong. quite wrong
the racism you display to other iranians is ugly. your distaste for ‘common people’ openly expressed in your missave against loyal
you have made no bones about your support for a certain iranian elite – i have never hidden the fact & burden i might say that i consider myself an althusserian – be that as it may – whether there is or is not a general strike will tell the tale

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 20:03 utc | 19

Dear Parviz,
thank you for this letter.
I was waiting for your input in the MoA discussion of the events in Iran.
I admit I was and still am annoyed by Bernhard’s position (annoyed not outraged), but when checking out what the mainstream medias say I also must admit that I understand the need for swinging the other way. It is so difficult to find a “just” position when so much ideology distorts all reports (I have some sympathy for Chavez but seriously WTF?).
Anyway, it is frustrating for an internaional solidarity activist like me to be unable to fully embrace a position, even though I’m sure intelligent, progressive and democratic people are active somewhere in Iran and not fooled by all atempts at instrumentalisation, be it from Western imperialists or theocratic fascists or whatnot.
Thanks to everyone here who spent time and energy to contribute to a very meaningful discussion, and once again to Bernhard (it is a form of luxury to be able to disagree with people you respect and approve of in other matters – viele danke for that).
Parviz stay safe, you’re our man in Persia!
f

Posted by: f | Jun 20 2009 20:05 utc | 20

amir s
you reveal more than you might want – about exactly where you are situated in the scheme of things

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 20:06 utc | 21

Parviz, whether I agree with you or not, I’m glad you decided to continue posting here. I do not know what happened during the election or what is happening in Iran now. But I can tell you for a fact that, whether this is a color revolution or the real thing, the forces outside Iran will milk it for all they can, and they only care about democracy so long as it is helpful for them. If out of this uprising, a new dictator arises who is happy to kiss America’s backside, they will prefer that over a true democracy any day.
Good luck to you and yours. And keep in mind that b is ***NOT*** your enemy, and neither are most of us posting here.

Posted by: Lysander | Jun 20 2009 20:06 utc | 22

Tom, Who said anything about my supporting Rafsanjani? I’ve referred to him often on this Blog as the corruptest person on Earth. In fact, I’ve often repeated that the entire system is corrupt. So I don’t get your point.
As for anti-Arabism, I have absolutely nothing against my fellow countrymen, whether Jews, Arabs, secular Muslims, Christians or Armenians. I also have nothing against Jews, as my constant praise of J Street, Norman Finkelstein and others will attest. So my dislike of Arabs is not an ‘ethnic’ thing but a reaction to repeated Arab invasions. I suppose, you think the reason I hate America and Britain is because they’re Christian and not because they destroyed my country?
It’s you have make the inexcusable crime of justifying your arguments by trying to label me a racist. You’ll have to try to win your arguments some other way.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 20:08 utc | 23

parviz
then, on the general srike we agree 100%

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 20:08 utc | 24

an exercise
go to national endowment of democracy’s website & note all the persons & groups given money
then watch al jazeera –
witness exactly which iranians are spokespersons & have been funded by ned
it constitutes over 90% of the people commenting

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 20:12 utc | 25

Parviz, earlier I was thinking that you were from the Gucci wearing class of Theran. But now I think that you are definitely a paid CIA stooge.
Interesting article by Paul Craig Roberts at vdare . Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury during Reagan’s first term.

Iran Faces Greater Risks Than It Knows
By Paul Craig Roberts
Stephen Kinzer’s book, All the Shah’s Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror, tells the story of the overthrow of Iran’s democratically-elected leader, Mohammed Mosaddeq, by the CIA and the British MI6 in 1953. The CIA bribed Iranian government officials, businessmen, and reporters, and paid Iranians to demonstrate in the streets.
The 1953 street demonstrations, together with the Cold War claim that the US had to grab Iran before the Soviets did, served as the US government’s justification for overthrowing Iranian democracy. What the Iranian people wanted was not important.
Today, the street demonstrations in Tehran show signs of orchestration. The protesters, primarily young people, especially young women opposed to the dress codes, carry signs written in English: “Where is My Vote?” The signs are intended for the western media—not for the Iranian government.
More evidence of orchestration is provided by the protesters’ chant, “death to the dictator, death to Ahmadinejad.” Every Iranian knows that the president of Iran is a public figure with limited powers. His main role is to take the heat from the governing grand Ayatollah. No Iranian, and no informed Westerner, could possibly believe that Ahmadinejad is a dictator. Even Ahmadinejad’s superior, Khamenei, is not a dictator, as he is appointed by a government body that can remove him.
The demonstrations, like those in 1953, are intended to discredit the Iranian government and to establish for Western opinion that the government is a repressive regime that does not have the support of the Iranian people. This manipulation of opinion sets up Iran as another Iraq ruled by a dictator who must be overthrown by sanctions or an invasion.
On American TV, the protesters who are interviewed speak perfect English. They are either westernized secular Iranians who were allied with the Shah and fled to the West during the 1978 Iranian revolution or they are the young Westernized residents of Tehran.
Many of the demonstrators may be sincere in their protest, hoping to free themselves from Islamic moral codes. But if reports of the US government’s plans to destabilize Iran are correct, paid troublemakers are in their ranks.
Some observers, such as George Friedman, believe that the American destabilization plan will fail. However, many ayatollahs feel animosity toward Ahmadinejad, who assaults the ayatollahs for corruption. Many in the Iranian countryside believe that the ayatollahs have too much wealth and power. Amadinejad’s attack on corruption resonates with the Iranian countryside, but not with the ayatollahs.
Amadinejad’s campaign against corruption has brought Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri out against him. Montazeri is a rival to ruling Ayatollah Khamenei. Montazeri sees in the street protests an opportunity to challenge Khamenei for the leadership role.

Parviz your crazy lie about the presence of hezbollah in Tehran is the damning peice that has made me reach my conclusion.

Posted by: a | Jun 20 2009 20:18 utc | 26

Kissinger and Brzezinski must be laughing their asses off. Your point has been made, Iran will not be the same and as you yourself admit Khamenei’s Aura of Invincibility Shattered. Go home, regroup, reorganize, go on general strike. The vultures are waiting behind the curtain. Good luck.

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 20:19 utc | 27

What do you think the millions of dollars the US is spending on psy-ops in Iran are doing now?

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 20:23 utc | 28

“Nobody I know gives a damn about the U.S. or Israel. We are all simply fed up.” Oh, but they care very much about you. Think about it.

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 20:25 utc | 29

I’ve been on a glorious river trip and have missed most of the past ten day of craziness. Not that I missed it.
Parviz- Hang in there and keep your head down and good luck with the thugs, regardless of their race or color; “thug is as thug does” and it wouldn’t matter if they were speaking swahili when they’re clubbing you.
Interesting post… I’ll be curious to see who “wins” this one – rgap or parviz?
I’d rather straddle the fence until I get better caught-up on what the real world is doing… though if I had my choice I be floating on an infinite river that traveled the same 800 miles over, and over.
Parviz, good luck!

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 20 2009 20:29 utc | 30

By Parviz,
And as for my anti-Arabism (but not anti-Iranian Arabism), well how can you blame me when they have attacked us repeatedly throughout history (most recently from 1980-88 with one million dead) while we have not attacked them even once? We haven’t attacked anyone in 250 years, unlike just abouteveryone else on this planet.
You may not want to hear this now, but most Arabs (in Egypt, anyway) were deeply taken by Khomeini when he was in power. They hated Saddam at the time, who seemed back then to be a stooge just like Mubarak, and rooted for Iran during the war. Of course, Mubarak backed Saddam. Lybia and Syria, both Arab countries, backed Iran strongly during that war.

Posted by: Lysander | Jun 20 2009 20:32 utc | 31

“I’m sure Iranian state TV will sacrifice a sheep to make the event appear more authentic before filming and airing it. The event wasn’t shown even once on Iranian TV till now. I wonder why …”
Sorry parviz. Surely if the Khameini people bombed the mosque to make the Moussavi people look bad, as per your first post, they would want it all over the TV?

Posted by: dh | Jun 20 2009 20:34 utc | 32

Press TV is reporting that Israel has deployed inside Lebanon. I wonder if Hezbollah is in a weaker position because of Iran’s preoccupations. I wonder if the Israeli deployment is the first indication of a wider agenda.

Posted by: Lin Wells | Jun 20 2009 20:38 utc | 33

if the Khameini people bombed the mosque to make the Moussavi people look bad, as per your first post, they would want it all over the TV?

Oh, that’s what the psy-op money is buying, ‘creative chaos’.

Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our own society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Michael Ledeen

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 20:41 utc | 34

it is utterly simple – in every media in the world including the arab media – my arab brothers & sisters are demonised
it should not be acceptable here – in any form

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 20:41 utc | 35

To the pro-Mousavi posters here, including Parviz:
If Mousavi had been announce winner and been sworn in as President, what specific reforms would he have undertaken?

Posted by: Arnold Evans | Jun 20 2009 20:44 utc | 36

@ Lin Wells
oh my, that does not sound good at all. this is going to end badly for a lot of people I think. all the Left Behind crowd must be creaming their jeans ’bout now.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 20 2009 20:45 utc | 37

@a: Sorry, the article you quoted is full of bullshit and you’ve swallowed it with taste.
Why the signs are in English? FOR YOU! For the people who don’t understand Farsi and even don’t know the alphabet. These people just know that their only chance to be heard, is to speak English. An to speak to western media. Who else could transmit their voice abroad or even within the country? PressTV.ir?
Many Iranians speak perfect English, especially young ones. It’s easy to communicate in English in every Iranian city, not only Northern Tehran, and even on the countryside it’s not hard to meet a speaker. But for you, who never visited Iran, it’s just unbelievable and every English speaking Iranian has to be a CIA agent.
I doubt the “green revolution” will succeed, I don’t believe Mousavi is willing to change anything (Who silently accepted Khomeini’s massacre of prisoners, being the prime minister?). But I don’t accept the bullshit that protests are US-funded. And I don’t agree that fighting US imperialism by supporting regimes is a good thing.

Posted by: emes | Jun 20 2009 20:48 utc | 38

Thank you for your post Parviz.

Posted by: steve | Jun 20 2009 20:48 utc | 39

The protests don’t have to be funded, they can be used for free.

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 20:53 utc | 40

Parvize:
I have some questions I would like to ask you, if you don’t mind.
1. How many people do you think attended the rallies today?
2. What is the generational and class make-up of the rallies so far as you know?
3. How long were you on the streets?
4. Do you remember hearing shots?
5. Can you differentiate between the sound of an AK-47 aka Kalashnikov and tear gas? If so, can you tell me how many shots of each you heard in say one hour or the whole day? Any guesstimates would be most welcome.
6. What was the percentage of jeeps and vans to the number of anti-riot forces? For example, would one vehicle per 20 personnel be an accurate description?
7. Were the anti-riot forces wearing harmonized uniforms or different uniforms? For example, the usual anti-riot gear of the Law Enforcement Forces (LEF)? The NOPO (Niroy-e Vije Pad Vahshat) gear? Were the Baseej given ad hoc anti-riot gear wearing them on their plainclothes or were they fully clothed in anti-riot gear including boots?
8. Did you observe anti-riot forces carrying ration and supplies? Water cans for example?
9. Did you observer any IRGC regulars?
10. Was there air support for the anti-riot forces? Could you hear Hueys (The most common type of chopper in Iran.) flying overhead? How many?

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 20 2009 20:56 utc | 41

Woman protesters inviting a visit from a police baton

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 20 2009 21:01 utc | 42

emes, beautiful. Thanks. You managed to state in a few words what took me a hundred lines to express.
This Blog seems to be split evenly between ideologists and optimists. I fall in the latter category and not only want the best for my country but believe it is indeed achievable WITHOUT surrender of its independence.
Regarding some of the atrocious, off-the-wall accusations against me that reek of a “kill-the-messenger” ploy, I wrote a response that couldn’t be posted because of its length and have asked b to do it.
(I greatly admire b for getting so much flack and requests for favours from the same person!).

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 21:03 utc | 43

Good night everyone. It’s 01:35 down here.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 21:04 utc | 44

RT@GregMitch CNN breaks straight from video of women getting beaten in Iran to Obama out with kids for ice cream this afternoon.
Clever. Will Obama be soon ‘forced’ soon come to save you? A general strike, if your numbers are truly so great, is a proven way to bring down a government. Tweet that!

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 21:04 utc | 45

what i find unbelievable is people sourcing their ‘information’ from a media that has lied & has demonstrably lied. the fact today that they cannot ‘verify’ anything seems to change nothing at all. now it is out & out lies. they are even showing videos of last week as if they are today
this campaign of lies discredits whatever genuine revolt actually exist & as yuri suggests – who & what do they serve – in the final analysis
i do not support theocrats but this campaign of lies is obscene – they are clearly using water cannons, gas & batons as they do here in france or even in the belly of the beast – the tools of repression do not change much from country to country & i can see no, absolutely no benefit at all for these agencies to be used recklessly against the people
& as much as parviz might fantasise about hamas shock troops & how much dragonfly would like to see the situation militarised – it remains, for the most part – a policing action – to implicitly wish a war, a civil war on a people possesses a questionable morality

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 21:15 utc | 46

By the way, having Iraq disabled, Taliban fighting USofA and Pakistan, while Pakistan is tied with civil war and India tensions, having Obama instead of Bush, this would be a perfect moment for deep system change in Iran. Quite safe in terms of risking external attacks.
Now, let’s give some local war to Netanyahu, and with his attention drawn away, change the system in Iran! 😉

Posted by: emes | Jun 20 2009 21:19 utc | 47

The presence of foreign Arabs standing in the ranks of the goons in Tehran would be the equivalent of Hessian mercenaries of the US Revolutionary War. We have to be skeptical, Parviz, because the presence of such enforcers, would be much more damaging as an incitement to civil violence (with respect to the government’s interest), as against any contribution it could make to support the crackdown. It would be wildly counterproductive, if true. We’ll have to see photographs and have other source to confirm before we can swallow it.
I would caution my friend r’giap that there is a limit to how paranoid we can allow ourselves to become; our judgment can become skewed. Are we to resist every interview and report from the street in Tehran? Are we alternately rejecting and embracing the report of an oldtimer like Robert Fisk, because we don’t know what to believe? I am an admirer of Paul Craig Roberts, a traditional conservative and former member of the Reagan administration, a man of good moral caliber and integrity; one of the sound conservatives, he became our political ally against the crimes and degradation of the Bush/Cheney government.
Much as I admire Roberts, there are holes in his argument. It is completely logical in ordinary reportage that you seek out people who speak the language of your target audience, equally logical that a serious protest in Iran might want to appeal to the conscience of the outside world using the English language, which has wide usage. Unless the language itself is inextricably part of the conspiracy, the argument falls through. Passionate arguments about color revolution are flimsy, if this is the best they can do. If you keep beating this paranoid horse; the point will come when one can’t accept any first person report from a reporter on the scene without depreciating it.

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 20 2009 21:23 utc | 48

emes
i think you are making a critical error. the more the situation becomes destabilised – the more likely the attack. if imperialism has taught us anything it likes to fight unfair fights, that’s why it carried out its slaughter in the broken down afghanistan, that is why it attacked an iraq already diminished by sanctions, in latin america it intervened when the human costs for themselves were not substantial. today a fragilised iran would be perfect to attack on a whole number of levels
& israel – like that perpetual dog who wants to go for your jugular – it playas around on the shaeba farms thinking that hezbollah are incapacitated by both the lebanese & iranian elections – i think they will find(contrary to any fantasy by parviz)hezbollah ready & willing for war on that front & i think they will be surprised to watch the lebanese support hezbollah in such an action
i have argued here as have others that imperialism is in its dying days – even if for some china behaves provisionally like one – & that is when they are the most dangerous & reckless. imperialism has not invested all its onies in iran for nothing – like the gangsters they really are – they want returns on that investment
yes i worry for the iranian people but i worry for iran & i worry for us because i do not see the light on the hill – on the contrary – i find the international situation absolutely frightening. the lack of thought in its strategy is pakistan is a case in point – i do not put it past them to seek a more violent destabilisation of iran

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 21:31 utc | 49

Dragonfly, sent my response via b. Didn’t post for some reason.
Copeland, the regime is desperate, and even this show of force backfired. Do you really think the mullahs care how many jean-wearing Iranian students they kill in order to retain power, or whom they use to do it? They feel a greater affinity with Hezbollah than with their own students. It is a corrupt foreign regime and an enemy of its own people. It is not the Islamic Republic of Iran but the Hooligan Republic of the Revolutionary Guards. They own and control everything.
They are traitors and will be made to pay for it.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 20 2009 21:34 utc | 50

copeland
i simply ask you to go through the ned’s website – read their docuuments – at this moment see who is commenting on iran – go back to the website & almost every time – it is an ned hack. research articles from wherever on ned’s investment in iran which is enormous. there is a group not unlike the iraq planning group within the pentagon – research that – i think you’ill find that group has its tentacles somewhere in today’s situation
you do not have to be in the least conspiratorial – a basic historian can follow the facts of these color revolutions – whether in mongoli or ukraine, lebanon or georgia
this would not be the first time genuine grievances have been manipulated by those with darker plans. & in any case even if it is limited to an interelite struggle – the people will be sacrificed. moussavi far from becoming a martyr would prefer his people to vecome martyrs like those who died in the idiotic iran-iraq war

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 21:39 utc | 51

The statement loyal had quoted from the assembly of experts in support of khamenei was not signed on behalf of all members as claimed by IRIB but only a few of the members. A rift seems to occurred even inside the majlis khobregan.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 21:57 utc | 52

Parvez, if your side shall win how do you propose to single out traitors? Will Mousavi execute another 30K or am I misinformed on that. I hope you realize that once you have succeeded you will need bureaucrats, functionaries of the old regime who actually know how a system works, and what of the military, are they to be purged?
I can’t believe I’m saying this stuff. This is the first time that I have cautioned a movement to replace a corrupt regime, well, there were a few extreme excesses in the US 60’s, but I mostly I was duped. Fuck, maybe I’ve finally grown up, a personal tragedy for sure.
Parvez, obviously I fall on the pessimistic side, and I think history backs me up. I want to be clear that I am not necessarily against your goals, but the tactics your side is using need to smarten up fast. Why no general strike? The best to you, I admire the courage and I hope I am proven wrong.

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 21:58 utc | 53

this situation is going to escalate, there’s not much doubt about that.
annie had expressed frustration that iran’s civil unrest is eclipsing the israel/palestine issue, and i can’t help worrying that if israel really is deploying in lebanon (as lin wells @33 claims) the whole region might erupt.
this is going to sound incredibly selfish, but health care reform is a domestic issue that may have a chance to shake up my fellow citizen sleepwalkers to the corruption that flouts the basic will of the people here, in the us, but if this civil unrest is used and exploited by the vultures, everything could be eclipsed by events that no single player may be able to control.
people the whole world round are getting fucked while the elite play their games. if they start getting endgame vicious, we’re all in serious trouble.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 20 2009 21:58 utc | 54

Amir, Source?

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 22:09 utc | 55

Yuri, mousavi’s not changing the regime. This isn’t a new revolution.
I think that in some years we’ll look back and realize that finally the islamic revolution has occurred and we will view 79-09 as the transition period.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 22:10 utc | 56

e we have not attacked them even once? We haven’t attacked anyone in 250 years, unlike just abouteveryone else on this planet.
Well that’s a little misleading. You didn’t send troops into Iran and Afghanistan to support shock and awe but your government fully cooperated and supported the US invasion of both countries. Of course your government had no problem with killing Arabs in Iraq as long as your Arab friends in the Supreme Council for Isalamic Revolution in Iraq were guaranteed seats in the puppet pro US government. Your government had no problem with that and quickly provided legitamcy to the occupation by opening an Iranian Embassy and declaring full support for the newly installed government via the barrel of American guns. To sit there and claim your country is an innocent angel after that performance is ludicrous.
Parviz @ 50:
Do you really think the mullahs care how many jean-wearing Iranian students they kill in order to retain power, or whom they use to do it?
This is a dispute about an election and both sides have mullahs. Do you really think that the alternative will care who they kill? They sure as hell didn’t care when they were in power:

Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi died in Iranian custody on July 11, 2003, almost three weeks after she was arrested for taking pictures outside a prison during a student protest in Tehran.
Evidence of a very brutal rape.
A skull fracture, two broken fingers, missing fingernails, a crushed big toe and a broken nose.
Severe abdominal bruising, swelling behind the head and a bruised shoulder.
Deep scratches on the neck and evidence of flogging on the legs.

CBC
Who was in power then Parviz? Oh your freedom and democracy loving pals. Tell us some more about how overturning the election and putting Moussavi in power will bring freedom and democracy to Iran.

Posted by: Sam | Jun 20 2009 22:18 utc | 57

Parviz jaan
Today I looked into a mirror and wondered when I became a coward.
I tried to imagine whether I’d be brave enough to go in the streets and face fire, batons, bullets, axes and acid and I couldn’t get myself to say an honest resounding yes. My father when he was my age did say yes. As did my mother and my uncles. Maybe I’ve lived in the west for too long and the materialist selfish culture has caused some decay in me. Or maybe I have to be there in person to be immersed in that spirit.
Thank you Parviz jaan for going into the streets and though I’m an atheist, I’ll be praying for you.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 22:23 utc | 58

Yuri, I’m using a mobile device which doesn’t allow cut/paste, I’ll send you the Farsi link when I’m at a computer.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 22:28 utc | 59

Sorry this got cropped from the top in my reply # 57
Parviz @ 15:
And as for my anti-Arabism (but not anti-Iranian Arabism), well how can you blame me when they have attacked us repeatedly throughout history (most recently from 1980-88 with one million dead) while we have not attacked them even once?

Posted by: Sam | Jun 20 2009 22:29 utc | 60

Sam, kazemi was killed by the sepah. And now the sepah has officially taken over the country, do you understand why people are in the streets now?

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 22:30 utc | 61

Amir S @ 61:
Sam, kazemi was killed by the sepah. And now the sepah has officially taken over the country, do you understand why people are in the streets now?
Your side was in power and your side refused to even so much as return the body to the family and you expect me to believe that there is a difference?

Posted by: Sam | Jun 20 2009 22:35 utc | 62

Sam, I don’t think you quite understand the nature of factional politics. The sepah was in power even when ‘my side’ the reformists had the presidency. I have post a few threads ago that explains some ofthe power structure in Iran. (i’d also suggest learning about the armed sepah take over of iran most important airport some years ago)

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 22:45 utc | 63

Amir S @ 63:
The sepah was in power even when ‘my side’ the reformists had the presidency.
That’s what I’ve been saying. It’s not me that doesn’t understand it’s you.

Posted by: Sam | Jun 20 2009 22:51 utc | 64

i shall go back to the general strike – because it is only through such an action that the real support of one side or another can be fundamentally tested
because essentially the numbers of people in the streets was very similar – whether it was either group of supporters or for the speech by khamenie – though this fact was deliberately concealed through western sources
the class makeup of the demonstrations have not been spoken of except paranthetically though it would be revealing
it is clear to me that ahmadinejad won but for whatever reason his power group, they needed to insist on that win – somewhere someone has made a strategic error of unbelievable proportions & error has been heaped upon error & the basic truth has been hidden by impulse & impulse has meant that frontiers have been crossed
tonight it appears that those frontiers have been damaged irreparably
as lizard says aptly – we are living on one fucked up world & a weak iran will only add to it being more fucked up – it will offer imperialism an escape route from its genocidal practices against the people of the middle east
the responses of reaction & counter reaction have their own logic – quite outside of cause – & even without the interference of external forces – that logic is both terrible & terrifying

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 23:00 utc | 65

Sam,
Read post 61 on debs take on election thread.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 23:13 utc | 66

Sam,
Read post 61 on debs take on election thread.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 23:13 utc | 67

There is no doubt that the Bush regime had inserted seed money. This seed money is like testing a solution. If it is supersaturated the seed grains will become large crystals. If there isn’t a supersaturated solution, the grains fall to the bottom of the vessel.
Parvis, I appreciate your posts, I really hope you will try to answer the 15 questions above and also, I was wondering what your age is too. As to the tactics your gov’t is resorting to, your gov’t, my gov’t does the same thing.
I worry about what follows, you’re in a sea of sharks. Maybe we should all attack our gov’ts and tear them all down. Then I would feel like we are all equally disadvantaged, and liberated.

Posted by: scott | Jun 20 2009 23:23 utc | 68

Amir S
I’ve already read avery post since the election and then some. Read the history of Iran’s various governments since the theocracy has been installed. You will find a long trail of dead liberals no matter who was in power. Put any label on it you want the results speak for themselves.

Posted by: Sam | Jun 20 2009 23:26 utc | 69

from impeccable sources in high places

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 20 2009 23:41 utc | 70

scott:
The US has been funding seperatists and anti-regime groups. These usually play in the hands of AN and cost dearly the Iranian people and Mousavi. When they fund “opposition groups” they fund terrorists who try to overthrow the government, not people inside the government who try to change it.

As to the tactics your gov’t is resorting to, your gov’t, my gov’t does the same thing

No it doesn’t. Your government doesn’t shoot unarmed young women, exercising their constitutional right (Article 27 of Islamic Republic Consitution is ability to assemble and protest) in the streets. Don’t even go down that road. There is no comparison.
Sam:
All revolutions leave a trail of dead liberals. What’s your point?
The Sepah, the most fascist and militarist segment of the Iranian regime has taken over the country right now. The Iranian people are rising up against them. I personally like Mousavi. He is one of the cleanest people the regime has, and the only hope of Iran to regain its path towards independence an freedom. (Esteghlal & Azadi)
Also I’d like to know where you got this number 30k people executed. There were 5k MEK executed in 1988 after the american/iraqi supported terrorists attacked Iran. So what? BTW the people who did stand up against these human rights abuses, i.e. Montazeri who lost his post as Khomeini’s successor due to his opposition are in Mousavi’s camp right now.
—A.S.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 23:42 utc | 71

remembereringgiap:
I don’t usually reply to you; as rule it’s best not to talk to people who haven’t taken their meds, but this last one was really funny.
you post this haaretz article: “Ya’alon: Iran protests will lead to revolution”
as evidence of some convoluted vague convoluted conspiracy theory you already believe in,
but then you don’t post this haaretz article: “Mossad head: Iran riots won’t escalate into revolution”
from three days ago.
Lets just say, the Israelis, like yourself, don’t know what the fuck is going on.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 20 2009 23:50 utc | 72

No it doesn’t. Your government doesn’t shoot unarmed young women, exercising their constitutional right

I’m not sure about unarmed, but didn’t Khatamei mention Waco in his speech?

Posted by: yuri | Jun 20 2009 23:58 utc | 73

amir
your own position so transparent & so fact free it does not even merit a rebuttal

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 21 2009 0:09 utc | 74

amir
at least parviz has the merit of speaking openly. on the last couple of days your post have largely been so dishonest as not merit analysis or even reflection
i would worry more about your state _ you are there. then you are not there. then you are there. i’m absolutely fucking sure you know less than nothing

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 21 2009 0:14 utc | 75

yuri:
I don’t know anyone named Khatamei.
If you mean Khatami, he hasn’t given a speech. One of the last public things he’s said was “The sun is setting now, and I am one who loves the sunrise” to huge applause.
If you mean Khamenei, yes, he said that 80 people died in Waco, and hence we can do whatever we want in Iran. [wait didn’t the israelis use the same excuse to use white phosphorus in gaza? i.e. americans did it fallujah?] I’d like to you to tell that young girl’s family that she was shot in the street, while unarmed and not a danger to anyone, and it’s *OK* because of Waco.
I really wonder how much farther people are willing to go to be khamenei/AN/Sepah’s apologists.
—A.S.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 0:20 utc | 76

remembereringgiap:
i would worry more about your state _ you are there. then you are not there. then you are there.
aw that’s sweet of you.
I think the readers can view the last few posts we each have decide for themselves who is need of psychological counseling. for now you’re back on my crank-list.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 0:24 utc | 77

Ok, comments appreciated. Tarpley has often been plain wrong, but also he has often been correct. In his radio broadcast today he says, paraphrasing, Brzezinski and Kissinger wanted the Shah out, fundamental Islam was a good thing back then, and it was useful to surround the Soviets. BTW, I object to the demonstrators being called “Rent-a Mobs” or Gucci Revolutionaries”.
Audio: http://bit.ly/grLDY
Also I’d like comments on this article:
If the Ayatollah Khomeini was an enemy of the United States ruling elite,
why did he adopt the CIA’s security service?
http://homepage.mac.com/kaaawa/iblog/C177199123/E20060523124615/index.html

Posted by: yuri | Jun 21 2009 0:25 utc | 78

Violence will degrade the government’s legitimacy in very rapid order. Even if most people really voted for AN, they may turn against a government seen to be killing people in broad daylight. If they can’t stop the protests without killing multiple people, the government will fall. At best, it will survive as a half dead failed state.
The worst thing for Iran is a drawn out revolution where the protesters come to depend on the outside world for help and support. Even if this is a natural rebellion and not a color revolution, it will become easier for the west to manipulate it to their advantage if the Musavi camp ends up needing their help.

Posted by: Lysander | Jun 21 2009 0:26 utc | 79

Violence will degrade the government’s legitimacy in very rapid order. Even if most people really voted for AN, they may turn against a government seen to be killing people in broad daylight. If they can’t stop the protests without killing multiple people, the government will fall. At best, it will survive as a half dead failed state.
This would be the worst case scenario. In my view though, the government’s standing was severely degraded when they rigged the elections. It’s been a huge gambit on the part of Khamenei, and now it’s looking like it won’t pay off.
The worst thing for Iran is a drawn out revolution where the protesters come to depend on the outside world for help and support. Even if this is a natural rebellion and not a color revolution, it will become easier for the west to manipulate it to their advantage if the Musavi camp ends up needing their help.
Won’t happen. 🙂
The political maturity of the protesters is orders of magnitude higher than what they’ve been given credit for. Take for example the cries of “Allah-u-Akbar” the banners saying “Basiji’ye vagheyi, Hemmat bood or Bakeri” (The real basijis were [Shahid] Hemmat and [Shahid] Bakeri), or the silent protests. Take for example the 1979 revolution.
For me it’s truly the first scenario you’ve pointed out which is extremely scary.
—A.S.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 0:32 utc | 80

Amir, if you put words in my mouth again you will be on ignore.

Posted by: yuri | Jun 21 2009 0:33 utc | 81

Amir, if you put words in my mouth again you will be on ignore.

Posted by: yuri | Jun 21 2009 0:33 utc | 82

There’s no real harm in all these people standing on the sidelines throwing in their two bobs’ worth, is there? I just don’t know, like Yuri I don’t much like standing outside a seeming popular uprising and finding fault with the players because, that job is normally well in hand by those corrupted by power and seeking to hang on to it. But this isn’t the first such ‘popular uprising’ that has inspired great misgivings in me.
I have listed plenty of others, ones where I am much more familiar with the communities. Which is not to say I don’t know any Iranians but most of those I do know were refugees from the original Islamic revolution and have no objectivity at all when it comes to Iran.
I haven’t spent months in various parts of Iran getting to know people from all walks of life, which is how I prefer to get a feel of a society/ies before feeling able to know sure which way the people are likely to move.
The thing that really concerns me about this revolution/uprising/expression of discontent is that as far as I can see those Iranians who are participating are putting more emphasis on dialogue with people outside Iran than with those inside Iran.
They hold up signs in english which play well on the audiences in USuk living rooms but what about the Iranian people in the rural areas? Many of whom voted for Ahmadinejad, sure, but they are fellow Iranians that the urban protestors need to get on side if their campaign is truly based around securing the best for all Iranians – how are they communicating with them?
The rural communities are less likely to have satellite dishes capable of picking up the BBC, and therein lies the biggest danger.
The reliance on getting the message out via a foreign media service, one that has consistently betrayed the best interests of a host of peoples, not only in the Middle East, but in Africa, the Indian sub-continent, South East Asia and Latin America, really makes me wonder if those who are hitting the street in anger and frustration (that has built up over the course of a plethora of regimes including that of their new heroes Mousavi and Rafsanjani) are really thinking clearly about what is best for them and their fellow Iranians.
BBC World’s other regions are full of propaganda and half truths about Iran and the disputed elections. Imagine getting even that (probably milder) agit-prop (the farsi service into Iran is only a couple of months old which may or may not be a coincidence) into a society where up until BBC Farsi most TV stations didn’t discuss the issues the BBC is now headlining. Objectivity would be difficult. The novelty of the station its methodololgy and it’s messages would make it difficult for even the most intuitive or sceptical viewers to accurately assess the validity of information being broadcast. Remember the station is staffed by expats many of whom will have axes to grind with the current regime.
The BBC Iranian experts include the likes of Nazenin Ansari; journalist, Voice Of Amerika Persian News producer and paid up member of the “Iran is the devil” school of journalistic thought.
For example during the period of civil unrest in France during 2005, I heard Ms Ansari repeteatedly claim on the BBC Dateline program, where she has been a regular talking head since the post Kelly affair BBC shake-up, that the riots as she called them were an act of war against France instigated by the Iranian regime with agents-provaucateurs. Such remarks used to spill from her lips practically whenever she could inject them into the debate in on Dateline, but that was back before the beeb set up an Iranian TV service so she wouldn’t have so much concern about getting offside with any Iranians who may be watching. I stopped watching that dreadful piece of imperialist spin a long time ago, because too many of the talking heads were like Ms Ansari (ie anything but objective) and have no idea what her current stance is. (r’giap do you still force yourself to watch it?)
Ansari is an expat Iranian who fled Iran in the 70’s and seems to have been living in the West since. Perhaps that is why she finds it so easy to alternate between advocating bringing Iran to it’s knees with sanctions or stopping the Iranian plan to build nuclear warheads with military intervention by the west or even with Israel’s ‘assistance’.
One article by her which seems almost reasonable in comparison to her less strategised ad-libs to camera on live TV, is rather tellingly titled Divide and Empower” and proposes more sanctions against Iran. Too bad that it is the people of Iran who suffer the most from sanctions, however ‘targeted’ they may claim to be. When billions are being shifted a lot more people stand to benefit that merely the Iranian moving the money, and, as I have seen here with the so called targetted sanctions against the military leadership in Fiji, those who are most effected are the powerless who according some arcane rule are judged to fall withing the scope of a particular sanction. The really big wigs always cop an exception in the ‘interests of the nation’ ie some rich prick.
It seems she has accepted one reality, that force shouldn’t be used. Not because it would cause great misery and suffering to the Iranians whose interests she claims to represent but because:

“Most Iranian reformers are adamant that a western military attack will be a gift for the current regime because it will neutralise the disenfranchised elements of the military and paramilitary forces—who might otherwise switch sides. To effect change in Iran’s posture, they insist that Khamenei should be made to realise that people power counts more than the security forces. The aim for the west should be to weaken the latter while empowering the former.

The entire article which was published in June 06, reads like a blueprint for what has taken place in Iran over the last week. Worth reading as long as one applies critical thinking. ie considers the lack of supporting data for many of the ‘facts’ she claims. Any evidence is largely hearsay eg “Blah Blah, a prominent dissident, maintains . . .” then a story carefully aimed at the sympathies of the potential readership is dropped into the article.
Ms Ansari’s views are typical of those who are the driving force behind the BBC farsi service and I question whether the Iranians marching each day are really aware of either the strategies or the motives of some of the most influential players in this ‘movement’.
Examining the history of those inside Iran like Rafsanjani is cautionary enough but studying those on the outside openly enabling, and quietly steering the action, should give Iranians cause for concern.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 21 2009 0:44 utc | 83

Yuri:
Sorry I thought you were personally comparing waco to what’s happening in Iran right now.
Anyway here’s the Majlis Khobregan letter you wanted:
here
usually these letters are signed by the head of the Majlis (Rafsanjani) or simply signed “Majlis Khobregan”. In this case it’s signed by Mohamad Yazdi. There is another link I’ll post when I’ll find it.
Either way I have to go now, better try to get some work done today too.
Amir

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 0:44 utc | 84

Debs,
The large number of English signs you’re seeing may be a function of the fact that you read English-Speaking media.
I read farsi-speaking media and the pictures that are shown there usually have farsi signs.
for example here
Farsi signs are probably boring for you but they’re usually much more intelligent and witty than the boring old “where is my vote”.
Anyway, just a thought.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 0:50 utc | 85

@Amir

remembereringgiap:
i would worry more about your state _ you are there. then you are not there. then you are there.
aw that’s sweet of you.
I think the readers can view the last few posts we each have decide for themselves who is need of psychological counseling. for now you’re back on my crank-list.

I spent the better part of my life actively & intimately dedicated opposed to pretty much everything R’Giap believes in … until I awoke …
R’Giap is no crank, certainly Not in need of any counselling.
You & your recent fellow-traveller ID’s, the cat dragged in, since you choose to persist in lowering discourse to the gutter, can GO FUCK yourselves, … along with Parviz and his Hamas, Hezbollah & Arab ‘Stromtrooper’ UTTER BULLSHIT ! As if ! A flight of C-17 or C-5s just dropped ’em off heh ! Simply utterly facile BULLSHIT which undermines your entirety of first hand claims and credibility.
Should the non-priveledged Iranians of Southern Tehran and the Tehran Slums be seen to be active I might start to believe there is something to this other than co-ordinated disinformation and misrepresentation.
If 65% ACTUALLY voted for Mousavi, why is there only 3,000 hardcore protesters on the street when it REALLY actually counts ! 3,000, pfft …
That regular posters here can fall for these clearly non-credible, non-credited, non-sourced, unsubtantiated repetitive claims & memes, interwoven with disruptive & unjustified personal attacks, is utterly beyond me …
Amir, you & your compatriates clearly cannot sustain the credible falsity of personas over extended postings … give it up and FUCK-OFF.
Antifa, one can only assume you have some personal investment that is affecting your normally impartial objectivity … C’est la vie

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 21 2009 0:56 utc | 86

Outraged:
another arm-chair leftist revolutionary.
If 65% ACTUALLY voted for Mousavi, why is there only 3,000 hardcore protesters on the street when it REALLY actually counts ! 3,000, pfft …
3000 people?
This is a picture of Naghshe Jahan. You’ve never been there. You don’t know it takes 30 minutes to walk from one side to the other.
Here is the satellite picture of the same place.
This picture was taken 4 days after the rigged elections. 4 days after the suppression of dissidents had begun. 2 days after the dorms at Isfehan univesity were attacked, and students killed.
There are a minimum of 200,000 people.
Oh yeah, and this is Isfehan. Not Tehran.
—A.S.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 1:07 utc | 87

Amir, about Waco, it was a massacre by the government, in no way was it justifiable. When and if you have the time, watch “Rules of Engagement”. In no way will it vindicate government action, it is quite the opposite.
Thanks for the file, I will have to muddle thru with a translator.
Robert Parry reports resistance of Mousavi and his backers for a partial or complete recount. http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/061809.html
Amir, what are your thoughts regarding a strike? People would be much less likely to be shot in the head.

Posted by: yuri | Jun 21 2009 1:17 utc | 88

b,
Thanks for posting a contradictory opinion. I am very frustrated in following the Iranian situation because I don’t know of any first hand sources of analysis or information for which I can judge the reliability. The post from Parvis is, literally, the only thing I have seen anywhere that meets that criteria for me.

Posted by: swio | Jun 21 2009 1:20 utc | 89

yuri:
The problem with strikes is that the people who call the strikes will be immediately arrested. In general AN and Sepah have crushed very effectively any sort of labor oriented protests in the past. Combined with the fact that a large portion of the population is employed by organizations owned directly by the Sepah… I don’t know.
I’d love to see a strike. But if they arrest Mousavi as a consequence it’ll become very violent anyway.
The protests at least are *legal* technically.
Here is an interesting article in the Observer saying essentially what I’ve been saying about the rift between Sepah/Khamenei/AN and the Clerical faction in Iran.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 1:22 utc | 90

@Amir
An armchair leftist revolutionary … ROTFLMAO !
Oh, that is just so funny, on so may different levels :))
I should be feel honored with such an appellation …
You know nothing of my background yet instantly label and dismiss me … expected.
65% voted for Mousavi heh … where are they TODAY, when it actually matters and counts, TODAY … so where are the Iranians of southern Tehran … with 65% of the vote why are things apparently ‘petering out’ … the color-revolution has failed, but you guys haven’t finished milking the situ just yet …
Now, you’ll continue with more of the same, tossing each other the ‘ball’ and not respond, as you and your cohorts have peristently not responded when challenged, re the missing 65% of the population who simply ADORE Mousavi and Rafsanjani … yet ARE NOT OUT IN THE STREETS, NOW, TODAY …
Instead of building to a self-righteous justified crescendo, and developed insurmountable momemtum due to REAL MAJORITY POPULAR support, the aggrieved 65% disenfranschised majority just stand-down … yeah, right …
This sustained campaign of media saturation and disinformation blocks the sun out … a lot of shit is going down elsewhere in the world but gets no air … terribly convenient … and you your kind sustain it …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 21 2009 1:22 utc | 91

as always, outraged, an honor to hear from you & to be informed by the very real & human responses of debs
& its true how much hatred the very human figures of hugo chavez, morales & ahmadinejad. there’s not much i like about the president of iran but he is not a thief, he is clearly not corrupt & i think that is what they most hate about him. parviz has the merit of neing open about it but guests like amir repeat ad nauseum the things christian anampour vomits at a moments notice – perhaps they would be more comfortable there at cnn – where the hero journalist of cnn would welcome them with open arms
it seems a critique is quite foreign to them & even a recent guest such as drgonfly obsufacates with misshapen ‘research’ that is essentially the same ‘facts’ just like the old ‘facts’ . she seems to accuse annie of absence of rigour & method but i do not see any method other than that which you mention, outraged & i see no rigour at all in their texts, just advertisements
in any case, i am always gladder for your presence, outraged – & the dialectic demands that from the points we started we should converge as we have done on many questions

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 21 2009 1:26 utc | 92

Outraged:
According to your post 86, In your view, me and every other Iranian on this forum are part of an American/Israeli conspiracy who are cramping your style, and Antifa has some hidden invested interests. And that is why we are supporting what we claim to be a democracy movement in Iran.
you just found a nice place beside your hero remembereringgiap on my crank-list.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 1:28 utc | 93

outraged
because amir & his colleagues argument lack completely any subtlety – they are completely unable to see the subtilité in any other ‘discourse'(& i use the world lightly) than their own. as you point out it is just noise

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 21 2009 1:44 utc | 95

Amir, a strike doesn’t have to be just labor unions. People can close their shops, stop buying, stay at home don’t go to work. Tough I know, but so is a head shot (which reminds me of the mysterious snipers during the Chavez coup attempt). Call for a strike thru Twitter, Facebook etc if all that social media jive is really that widespread. Can you arrest Twitter? Besides it has been reported that Mousavi has said he is prepared to be a martyr. True?
Thanks for the observer link.

Posted by: Yuri | Jun 21 2009 1:55 utc | 96

“Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable.”
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 – 2006)

Posted by: Anthony jeffers | Jun 21 2009 1:56 utc | 97

@Amir
Where are the 65% disenfranschised voters for Mousavi & Rafsanjani …
Where are the Iranians of Southern Tehran …
I specifically identified YOU and dragonfly … given carefull analysis of all your posts … not other posters … no claim of a general American-Israeli conspiracy by Iranian posters in genral … NOT AT ALL … you continue to put words in other posters mouths … typical … you and your come lately IDs appear to be unaware of how such claims interwoven within your discourse can illicit & evoke unintended projection …
Continue with your disruptive & provocative invective, disinformation & false claims and misdirection. Issuing demands of other posters yet refusing to respond to debateing queries with any substance.
But most of all, you Trumpet sensationalist emotive manipulative greivances whilst unable to display in your discourse even the most basic humanity or civility whilst being peremptorally utterly dismissive …
You can take your crank-list and FUCK-OFF.
R’Giap is not my hero, though unlike you and your kind, I greatly respect and admire his demonstrable, proven, genuine sincerity, integrity and above all, selfless humanity, regardless of politics … and the same goes for Annie.
You, and your kind, on the other hand, um, to put it simply, I wouldn’t piss on, if you were on fire.

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 21 2009 1:57 utc | 98

Outraged @ 86
I see that you are running a sausage factory of tantrums within all threads. Here is the response I left for similar mud you’ve slung my way.
Sorry for cross posting all.
_____________________________________________
I am not sure how else a discourse can be denigrated but by insinuation, baseless accusations and ultimately foul language, all hallmarks of your post.
If something about the ideas I have presented here bothers you, please let me what it is and why you are bothered by it. Perhaps that will be more beneficial to you and me.
I do not have the pleasure of knowing Parviz or Amir S. So I cannot speak for their posts.
I have never claimed that Mousavi received 65% of the vote. I don’t know how many votes he has. What I have claimed with actual data released by the Ahmadinejad administration is that the election results as reported by the government of Mr. Ahmadinejad are almost surely fraudulent. Here it is once more for your viewing pleasure. If you find fault with what I propose as a sensible way to detect fraud with election results, please let me know.
1. Go to the website of MOI and download their aggregate voting data that is organized by county. Here is the link for MOI aggregate data:
http://www.moi.ir/Portal/File/ShowFile.aspx?ID=0793459f-18c3-4077-81ef-b6ead48a5065
This is the same link used by Walter Mebane of the University of Michigan whose analysis b cited before.
2. Go to the website of the Statistical Center of Iran and download the population figures for all the people who are 12 years of age and above in each county in Iran according to the 2006 census. The data for each province is here:
http://www.sci.org.ir/content/userfiles/_census85/census85/natayej/township/Age-Township2.html
3. Compare the number reported by Mr. Ahmadinejad’s MOI in with the census figures. This means that we are assuming no one has died in Iran in the past three years, which favors Mr. Ahmadinejad’s numbers, but let’s be lenient.
If you do this simple exercise you will find out that for more than half the 366 counties, Mr. Ahmadinejad’s MOI has reported more than a 100% of all the population of the county as voters. This is simply impossible. Remember that death rate in Iran has hovered around 6% for the past three years. So the number of eligible voters in each county should be less than the number reported in the 2006 census. But even with these assumptions favoring Mr. Ahmadinejad, half of counties have reported simply impossible figures. Interestingly, if you correlate those counties that have above 100% participation rate with Mr. Ahmadinejad’s vote in those counties you find a statistically significant positive relation. This means that Mr. Ahmadinejad did well in counties where there was fraud.
The other claim I have made, perhaps too obliquely for your grasp, is that within the current ideological and legal structure of the government, there is no way for a recount to be fair. Read my post 38 in this thread. Now if you do not agree with this assessment either you are more than welcome to let me know why.

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 21 2009 2:02 utc | 99

Yuri:
yes.
Mousavi stated on saturday that he’s done the “ghosl’e shahadat” which is basically the religious rituals one performs when expected to be martyr’d
—A.S.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 21 2009 2:05 utc | 100