Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 25, 2009
Lenin’s Red State Tomb

Lenin, the proprietor of the well visited British Lenin's Tomb blog, sometimes has some useful leftist thoughts and activism posts. He is on my blogroll for that reason. Lenin's real name, advertised at his own side, is Richard Seymour. He wrote a book :

Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, a number of prominent thinkers on the Left found themselves increasingly aligned with their ideological opposites. Over the last decade, many of these thinkers have become close to Washington; forceful supporters of the War on Terror, they help frame arguments for policymakers and provide the moral and intellectual justification for Western military intervention across the globe. From Kanan Makiya, one of the chief architects of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, to Bernard Henri-Levy’s advocacy of “humanitarian” intervention, The Liberal Defence of Murder traces the journey of these figures from left to right and explores their critical role in the creation of the new American empire.

Lenin's book  The Liberal Defence of Murder seems to be about the travels of the neo-cons from the pseudo left to the militaristic right.

Today Lenin writes:

The attempt to drown the protests in rivers of blood have reportedly led to a "massacre"
in Baharestan Square, outside the Iranian majles, today. Tens of
thousands of basiji
reportedly surrounded hundreds of protesters in
this small square, and battered them, then opened fire
on them. It's not just basiji – multiple reports indicate that young
men without uniforms were given batons and let loose. How much of this
is true is obviously impossible to tell, but given that dozens have
been killed so far, the worst would not be surprising.

Okay – pretty energetic – now let's check Lenin's evidence.

The first link in Lenin's post is to a video that shows no violence at all but some 50 (stupid because they have no tactical advantage) young people advancing towards an equally strong line of riot police. In the background some teargas pops can be heard and some smoke is seen.There is no blood or violence in it at all.

The second Lenin link is to a Guardian live blog where a search finds these two 'blood' and 'massacre' items:

2.50pm:
There are more disturbing reports on Twitter of injuries in Bahareston Square. One usually reliable source says it is like a war zone with blood everywhere and many nursing broken bones.

4.08pm:
CNN just interviewed someone who was at Baharestan Square. She tells of a massacre and a massive assault by policemen. The witness was hysterical and speaking very fast.

Blood everywhere – via Twitter … and an anonymous hysterical 'massacre' telephone account via 'someone' on CNN …

Lenin's third link, to a different Guardian piece, has this 'massacre":

One woman told CNN that hundreds of unidentified men armed with clubs had emerged from a mosque to confront the protesters.

"They beat a woman so savagely that she was drenched in blood and her husband fainted. They were beating people like hell. It was a massacre," she said.

Yes, it is the same anonymous CNN caller as in the second link. Now that's confirmation!

Lenin's fourth link is to the Daily Mail,.one of those totally unreliable and lying British tabloids. But still the Daily Mail page Lenin links to says just simply nothing about "tenth of thousands of basiji" or "opening fire" at all. Where did Lenin get those fantasies from?

Now from less breathless accounts than Lenin's I gather that yesterday some 200+ people tried to demonstrate at the Baharestan/Parliament Square and that the small not licensed demonstration was send home by the typical means any police force on this planet uses in such cases. Up to now, 24 hours later, there is not one confirmed report that any shots were fired at all, that "rivers of blood" flew or that anything like a "massacre" happened there.

But starting from that linking fast of hearsay the very "leftist" Lenin criticizes the "left" and proclaims:

The bloodless lack of enthusiasm for what is manifestly a democratic
movement
in some of the commentary reflects not anti-imperialist
sensibilities so much as political timidity.
The key here is universality: these protesters are no different from
those who have been beaten or killed in Genoa, in London, in LA, in
Athens, and everywhere that the state is challenged by a democratic
movement and responds in this way. Their case for solidarity is not
diminished by the fact that they live in a society that has been
threatened by imperialism. On the contrary, it means we ought to
redouble our efforts.

Sure – we certainly need more enthusiasm for a 'manifestly democratic
movement' that wants one non-secular pseudo-democrat authoritarian, Mousavi, to replace another non-secular pseudo-democrat authoritarian, Ahmadinejad,  to redirect the oil-money flow from the Iranian military aligned faction, Khamenei, to the more theocratic aligned one, Rafsanjani.

Unfortunately Lenin does not offer at all what efforts he thinks should be redoubled. More protests in London? Walk outs in New York? Strikes in Berlin? But I am sure he is able double or triple his own. A copy of his post to Red State or the Freeper site would do just that.

And maybe he should reread and reflect on his book?

Comments

b
i am not surprised in the least that the so-called left that parviz wants to demonise – are foolishly follwing the affairs using only the iran desks of foxcnnbbcaljazeera
the philosopher zizek who normally has much interesting to say has also written a hysteric response to the events in iran which i will not bother linking to – because it is written deep from vanity’s corruption
the so called left especially in the west has been especially vicious in relation to the ‘people’ annexed by political islam. the left through being liquidated by empire & its agents , through making thoughtless alliances & for allying themselves to the soviet union when their realities were substantially different – lost space to political islam & instead of analysing that defeat – they make alliances that are built on sand
there is something else which is just as worrying – for all the lipservice to the palestinian people – the left has done close to fuck all & a large reason behind this until recently is that iintellectual elites especially of the so called left have a phobia of the arab & persian people & this phobia riddles the thoughts of even a possibly great thinker like zizek
what i do not understand really is the hysteria – like our own slothrop – their shameless sourcing of cnn who no one in their right or left mind would do – even on a bad day
i think both you & i as individuals are prepare to say we are wrong, if we were wrong – but we aren’t wrong & the preponderance of evidence supports that

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 25 2009 23:15 utc | 1

as i mentioned in another thread watch how the emergent countries interprets events in iran & in their vast majority they support the government of iran while the oppressors in their vast majority have aligned themselves aganst iran
that a so called lenininst can cry to high heaven based on nothing than a tweet – is a sad testimony to the loss of analysts on the left in the west
& the context – the immeadiate context is from 1991 to today – the middle east has been the site of the worst crimes of empire & the government of iran & the masses have every right to fear destabilisation & worse. iran possesses enemies who wish her ill & have proved it. she has even made alliances with the empire (in iraq & afghanistan) to prevent harm coming to her immediately but i believe there is overwhelming evidence that the empire is practicing the darkest arts
lenin’s tomb & i start from diametrically opposed positions – it regards cnn as a reliable source – i regard cnn as one of the chief operators of inverting & fabricating reality – both for entertainment & for the cheneyian notion of creating history outside of history
the masses of the iranian people will make the real decisions
there is not, even in the slightest degree – the masses on the streets of iran. there iare considerable number of people who are supporting putchists within the elite
if you remember 2002 in venezuela – the hysteria of the privatised television tried to create the basis of support by the putchists there – but were defeated by the people – but in the moments leading to that putsch demonstrations of a considerable number of people never represented the masses in their vast majority. the immediate defeat of the putsch was more than proof of that

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 25 2009 23:16 utc | 2

with the death of michael jackson we’ll see how quick huffington post changes their priorities
really, really, the ghouls have no shame
but if i was khamenei’s publicist i’d advise him to do the moonwalk at this mornings prayer
so i suppose zizek will write something conflating michael with mousavi

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 25 2009 23:19 utc | 3

OK, I too lament when blood flows (as it has to some degree in Iran). Nevertheless, the stark contrast between the huge amount of attention given to the situation in Iran versus the (relatively) little given the far more serious (and ongoing) war against Palestinians in Gaza has me flabbergasted. I guarantee you that if the basiji were to do to the Iranian public half of what the Israelis did to the Palestinians during the recent war against Gaza, a coalition of the Western willing would already be gathering on the borders of Iran, as well as fleets of aircraft carriers offshore, in preparation for an Iraq style “shock and awe” invasion!

Posted by: D. Mathews | Jun 25 2009 23:20 utc | 4

d mathews
really for me, the hatred they feel for the arab people is perfectly expressed in the silence of that very same media to the situation of the palestinians. remember how quick they wanted balance – to balance the terrible slaughter of innocents with a couple of firecrackers thrown on occupied palestinan land
perhaps edward said has been surpassed by other scholars but no one has written of this hatred more exactly. it is perhaps not so strange that the scholar he most resembles is raul hilberg in their meticulous examination. testing us as a people with their ruthless & noble studies
if i was an iranian i would just look across the borders to see how destructive american involvement can be

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 25 2009 23:35 utc | 5

b
Why is that you focus on the way the Western media “depicts” the demonstrations however warped that is, instead of dealing straight with whether the demonstrators pursue a worthy cause or not?
Suppose you show that the MSM is biased. I will go even one step further and say suppose you can even show that they are coordinating their coverage with the foreign policy of the U.S. and the E.U. and Israel and whoever else that does not like the Iranian government.
Then what?
Does that mean the people in the rallies are demonstrating for a fake cause?

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 26 2009 0:26 utc | 6

I’ve been reading, in between marathon readings at the MOA, a book that has brought together a huge neural database of disparate information into a more inclusive gestalt for me. It delves into the network of moles (Wiktionary 3. An internal spy, a person who involves himself or herself with an organization to determine its secrets from within.) within the US government and their use of patsies ((Wiktionary 1. (informal, derogatory) A person who is taken advantage of, especially by being cheated or blamed for something.) in effectuating synthetic terror, i.e. strategy of tension, to manipulate foreign policy in their favor.
9/11, less four years, marked the 400th anniversary of Guy Fawkes Day. Maybe Guy issued in a reoccurring prevalent Machiavellian Western Governmental strategy of using unsuspecting dupes i.e. patsies to further imperial expansion. Guy’s set up led to the war with Spain which essentially shifted the British Empire into high gear. The sinking of the USS Maine in Havana harbor was what got the nonexistent (according to some) US Empire off and sailing. And we’ve been roving the seas ever since. There many examples of American expansionist policies along the way, Gulf of Tonkin off the top of my head, but the basic strategy hasn’t been lost, it’s been refined. To deny that the American government, administration through administration since 1898, hasn’t been implementing these actions around the globe wherever or whenever anything threatens their imperialistic designs, is either not informed or purposely distorting the data, at best probably through complete denial. It is not less than prima facie that American and allied foreign agents are actively attempting to influence any region of economic, military or ideological importance to them in every instance around the globe.
Whatever the truth is concerning Baharestan Square, the appearance of a mole deliberately disseminating disinformation certainly follows a well worn pattern of American interference in important elections. Whatever the corruption of any regime in question, if we don’t factor in this almost certain fact, we’re denying, evading or purposely obfuscating. The agents of the empire(moles) and their assets (patsies) are not part of a conspiracy dementia on the part of the observer. They are an well established reality of American foreign policy. I have no doubt they exist everywhere there is a strong popular impulse counter to their agendas.
That said, I have to admit to being a conspiracy theorist. I believe a conspiracy exist whenever two or more candidly plan any future event. So there is an almost infinite number of conspiracies and conspiracies within conspiracies. To believe that the top operatives within government aren’t conspiratorial is not just naive but stupid. In some cases around this establishment I believe purposely so. I have little doubt that the MOA has attained a respectability and reputation that is a threat to the disinformation line fed the general populous. And so it is prima facie to me that this blog is being watched and interfered with. My experience here of the past two weeks confirms my suspicions.

Posted by: Juannie | Jun 26 2009 0:55 utc | 7

Juannie-
Who do you think is posting as a mole? Or am I misreading your post?
I remember during the days of Gaza when several new posters appeared that were touting the Israeli line and it seemed, at the time, these posters were posting the same crap over and over. But in hindsight I realize that many of these posters were probably sincere in their post, that they were just more unfortunate sheep bleating what they believed to be true.
Why would any government agent need to post on MoA to disrupt the dialog? We seem to do that pretty well ourselves without the help of the government.
I like to wear a tinfoil hat myself, but there are limits to how important I believe my thoughts are to the government… if folks here started posting whacky hate/violence threads, I’d guess we’d probably warrant a monitor, but who really cares about a crazy melting pot of of a blog frequented by weird people, many with weirder political beliefs.
Even when it seems we all agree on something, we don’t always agree for the same reasons 🙂
I read What Really Happened quite a bit… and they are always spouting about how they are “under cyber attack” which may be true, but I’d guess most of the time it is from a common computer virus rather than on orders from Dick Chenny… who is a truly evil creep and if he could, he’d be controlling the internet.
Yeah, I think there are many evil, corrupt people in government and I believe they have committed some damn evil acts. I imagine they figure their time is better spent places they might better recruit people to help them rather than someplace like here where their “operatives” might be turned to the “other side”

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 26 2009 2:16 utc | 8

…prima facie to me that this blog is being watched and interfered with. My experience here of the past two weeks confirms my suspicions.”
True dat…
been watching it for a while, now. Question is, are they good paid capitalists, or merely zealots.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 26 2009 2:18 utc | 9

My experience here of the past two weeks confirms my suspicions.”
i’ll third that

Posted by: annie | Jun 26 2009 3:04 utc | 10

True dat…
Ahahahahahaha
Oh my god.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 26 2009 3:24 utc | 11

Well. At last. MoA stripped bare.
Conspiracy!
Ahahahahaha.
I’m left to wonder: Can rememberingberia suck his cock as well in real life as he does in cyberspace?
I bet the “moles” know
What a fucking disaster.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 26 2009 3:29 utc | 12

I have been a regular reader of both MOA and Lenin’s tomb. I might have come to MOA via Lenin’s tomb.
So far no one here has answered one simple question and I will ask that again. Has the Mullah’s anti-Americanism more value than the Mullah’s suppression of Iranians political rights?
The mullah encourages the kind of fundamentalism in the area that would eventually help the imperiralists and not the people of the area. No political and economic reforms have taken place in Iran in the last 30 years and in fact, the current regime has no alternate economic policies. The dwindling Oil revenues are not accounted for and Iran is a net importer of the refined oil. Now they are using refining facilities in India. Mullah has never passed on the Oil pricing benefits to the people of Iran. The regime wants to work with the West instead of developing alternates that help the people. A section of the ruling Mullah within the regime led by Rafsanjani is trying to make peace with the West.
I am not an Iranian but I can clearly see that people in Iran are now tired of the regime that is attempting to prolong its life on empty slogans.
The correct response to the current unrest would have been some economic reforms but the regime thinks that it can do without further distribution of wealth that only Mullah has access to.
I am not sure MOA is taking a right approach. The analysis should be objective, but like this post above many other posts lack a serious analysis of the situation.
No one can be right on every issue but it is not a bad idea to look at both sides of the picture and not support the Mullah based on only one aspect of the Mullah rule.
Iranians have suffered enough and now they want someone to hear them out. The people on the street alone can’t topple the regime but they can make enough dents for someone else to drill a big hole .

Posted by: Hasho | Jun 26 2009 3:33 utc | 13

Hm, well … from another thread …

… This was the X factor Khamenei gambled on. His security and intelligence advisers — perhaps reading MOA —

LOL. I mean, really, that’s just classic.
Would anyone accept a rational person would believe the MOA is a guiding force for the Iranian regimes intelligence and security services decision making and that such would be vocalised … about as credible as Hamas, Hezbollah & Arab Stromtroopers and Darth Vaders …
Though it does speak to ‘projection’, and along with the nature of the rest of the incessant ‘chafe’ a desire to denigrate and or nullify the MOA as a community, voice or even ‘drop-in’ watering hole … if one doesn’t care to learn, debate, discuss or inform civilly, and has no respect for the forum, it’s host or posters, why the obsessive bombastic posting … intent … the intent is to achieve what, precisely ?

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 3:41 utc | 14

I’ve been sipping whiskey here with my back to the wall at the far end of the bar for years now. During this Iran election cycle more so than usual. And what a convoluted discussion it’s been!
b, I really appreciate you and this blog. Hope things are improving for you and the troubled times you recently mentioned.
Hasho, I really appreciate what you are saying.
Now, I need another drink.

Posted by: Eureka Springs | Jun 26 2009 3:52 utc | 15

@Hasho
IMHO, there are no indicators of a mass movement. There are no indicators of the average Iranian, specifically the Iranians of the less priveledged suburbs of Southern Tehran, or the regional areas being aggreived to the extent asserted by some.
With 100,000 demonstrators, dwindling to 3,000, then (?)… is not an indication of a mass movement of the majority of the Iranian population being disenfranschised and aggreived to the extent some assert ad nauseum … other genuine mass movements or even potential ones have attempted to stand thier ground against even machine guns and tanks … regardless of the exponential demonization of the ‘evil’ and ‘villainous’ Iranian government et al …
Hm, oh, and just because an assertion, or for that matter a lie (large or small) is repeated endlessly, that doesn’t make it factual truth, though the intended perception can be ‘seated’ for the casual reader or observer (joe six pack) … classic psyops and public perception and opinion management, when done repetitively in scale …
my 2c is up
Peace, Salaam, Shalom

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 3:58 utc | 16

Outraged @ 14
Perhaps it is the Internet, or a new age dawning, but you are expected to understand sarcasm or satire once in a long while. Then again maybe you can’t. In that case, some cultural sensitivity training is in order.

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 26 2009 4:21 utc | 17

… but you are expected to understand … some cultural sensitivity training is in order.
Heil Dragonfly ! LOL
Been there, done that … have had formal CS training on numerous occassions, at least the coffee was good and the donuts were free … cosmopolitan life experience and common sense have more practical value … ah, the limitations of a text only interface …
Please accept my truly heartfelt and sincere apologies for distracting you from your apparently endless posts, perhaps you’ll make the Guinness book of records … pray, continue … um, Dragonfly, that last was, well, um, sarcasm 🙂

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 4:37 utc | 18

Those who feel that what is occurring in Iran is a revolution have only one way to show their solidarity. And that is by making revolution in their own country. Any revolutionary knows this.
But in fact so imbued have people become with the values of imperialism that they see solidarity as …what?
What?
Urging your government, which is ipso facto against democratic revolutions to allow you to piggyback your democratic (on behalf of others) yearnings on their imperialism.
It really makes no sense: I don’t know what is happening in Iran. I have more sense than to believe much that I garner from the media, who are hell bent on propagandising to the lowest common denominator. I pay no attention to demonstrators holding up English language signs in Teheran, (anyone who does needs to ask why).
The front line in the war for democracy isn’t in Iran it’s where you live. And entering into it begins by working out where the news comes from, who pays for it, who edits it. And what is in it for them. In this case the two big sets of players are the Arab authoritarian regimes which fear the spread of democracy. And the Israelis who, equally, fear anything approaching ‘people power’ in the region.
But suddenly both the Dictatorships and the Israeli fascists are overtaken by waves of sympathy for the very people they have been threatening to bomb or (in the case of the Arab states) employing Saddam Hussein to bomb.
Despite the fact that both parties are united in their determination to thwart any free elections in Arab countries, they and their western sponsors (equally allergic to free votes by Arabs) are overpowered by suspicions of anomalies in Iran’s elections.
The last time we saw anything like this was when President Aristide was removed from power because his party’s Senatorial candidates had, in some cases, only garnered pluralities. A circumstance which so shocked the US government that he was kidnapped, banished and replaced by a proper dictator.
The point is that, if you believe that there is a revolution in Iran, just make sure that your government doesn’t intervene to put it down. If there is a revolution the only help Iranians need is non-interference: ask a Cuban, ask a Venezuelan, Bolivian or Chilean.
For my own part I don’t believe that there is a revolution and there won’t be one so long as foreigners threaten to carry out regime change.
And there won’t be one here so long as people spend their political energies screaming at TV sets and seconding the hypocrisies of slimy politicos, for whom the killing of a few dozen dissidents in west Asia doesn’t raise an eyebrow.

Posted by: ellis | Jun 26 2009 4:40 utc | 19

With 100,000 demonstrators, dwindling to 3,000, then (?)… is not an indication of a mass movement of the majority of the Iranian population being disenfranschised and aggreived

Outraged, You may be right but the movement against the Shah started with even less numbers. There are many other examples when the Majority did not show up on the streets but there was plenty of good will for the people who dared to come out. Fidel never had majority of Cubans behind him, neither did Lenin, Mao or any other revolutionary. The number of people on the streets is no criterion for judging the general resentment.
There are several reasons for the less affluent not showing up. One, in my opinion, would be that both groups are from the same ruling clique.
Khamenai(sp-I can never get this spelling right) praises Rafsanjani and Mousauvi served the regime in his best years.
Unfortunetely, the Mullah has no history of anti-imperialism. Before 1979, the Mullah was cutting deals with the West to topple Shah and one of the deal made the Iranian Army neutral in the conflict and that forced the Shah to leave the country, not the street power of the people. Had the army stood behind the Shah, the Mullah would have folded a long time ago. The Mullah made the deal to make sure that Iranian liberals are left high and dry. What makes anyone think that the Mullah would not make the deal again? After all Rafsanjani is part of the ruling group and not an outsider.
I am not an authority on Iran and I am trying to learn by reading comments here and many other places but one thing I firmly believe in is that the Mullah is fighting for its power,its wealth and not for some principles.
Mullah’s anti-Americanism appears to be a hoax. There is no depth in it. There is no commitment to any other anti-american force around the world, there is no common front with people of other countries that are facing the similar situation.
Take a second look at the mullah’s role in Iraq or Afghanistan. Don’t just buy the rhetoric, look at the hard facts.
When Pakistan or India wanted to get the Nukes they went about it in business like manner and quietly used whatever means needed to get there but how do you explain what mullah is doing with the nuke issue in Iran?
The Mullah might survive this but the whole saga had left such a sour feeling in Iranians that they will rise again and again.
There are many other issues that need to be looked at in the internal Iranian policies and majority of the mullah’s internal policies appear to be anti-people and pro-feudal, how could the liberals or the left support those policies?
Thanks.

Posted by: Hasho | Jun 26 2009 4:46 utc | 20

@Hasho
No major disagreement here, re cuba, etc … though I spoke of ‘Indicators’ as in ‘Intelligence’ and ‘Combat Indicators’ … there should also be evidence of disaffected members of the security and paramailitary forces if the movement was mass-majority, hesitation, conflicted, etc, am not seeing those indicators …
Mossadeq, democratically elected, was overthrown in a (lucky) foriegn orchestrated coup … the Shah only stayed in power through truly ruhtless, vicious rule via the Savak, CIA & Mi6, etc … the Shah, was weak, indecisive, and innefectual, always on borrowed time …
I believe some of the very first documented civil-human rights were created as law in ancient Persia (don’t have the reference handy) …
Yes, this could develop into something substantive and threaten the current order and ‘Islamic Republic of Iran’, though my personal view there aren’t solid indicators to support that, just yet … sorry, damned tired …
Hm, Mullahs, as an intra-country generalisation and seeking nukes … may come back to that one when I’m fully awake …
Peace, Salaam, Shalom

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 5:15 utc | 21

I’ll fourth it.
I used to edit a highly controversial wikipedia page that i had to fight for, tooth and nail, to get even the slightest improvements or additions to content made.
Over time, It got quite clear that Wikipedia has within it at least three cliques of highly placed personnel whose sole job — for which they get paid — is to assemble teams of bored teenage boys and bitter, fearful invalids to push certain lines of information into the pages, and to eliminate other lines of information.
And it was also clear that their goals shifted and adapted to political events.
Eventually, i got banned for — i kid you not — completely trumped up charges. They literally invented a bunch of accounts, had them masquerade as me, blamed me for the shenanigans in question, and then had one of the high-level admins come in and ban me.
Significantly, however: after the Bush junta descended, the page underwent virtually all the revisions and adaptations that i and the other beleaguered posters, there, had been pushing for.
I don’t think it was a coincidence.
Why would any government agent need to post on MoA to disrupt the dialog?
To discredit it as a source of information or analysis among the blogosphere; all you need to do is get a few “reputable” bloggers to do some well-linked writeups saying everyone over there is a nutcase, and that’ll be the first thing Google will feed to any newcomers who might get interested in the blog. Some day in the future, i’d guess — on some slow news-day, probably — MoA is going to be singled out as a bunch of nutcase conspiracists by someone like Andrew Sullivan (or maybe that other puckered asshole over at the Washington Note) and then we’ll get the AOL treatment.
…who really cares about a crazy melting pot of of a blog frequented by weird people, many with weirder political beliefs?
Fanatical zionists. Fanatical neo-cons. Fanatical military police. Fanatical neo-nazis.
Shall i go on?
The thing is, of those four, i know for a fact that the neo-cons and zionists hire “public relations firms” to manipulate sites like Wikipedia and to target selected blogs and news-sites, while the military habitually collects web-data to sift for likely terrorists and their supporters. For their part, neo-nazis generally are just assholes with too much time on their hands.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 26 2009 5:28 utc | 22

Has the Mullah’s anti-Americanism more value than the Mullah’s suppression of Iranians political rights?
No.
And now i’ll ask you a question:
Why should i care?

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 26 2009 5:29 utc | 23

@Hasho -@13 – The mullah encourages the kind of fundamentalism in the area that would eventually help the imperiralists and not the people of the area. No political and economic reforms have taken place in Iran in the last 30 years and in fact, the current regime has no alternate economic policies.
I sincerely think you are wrong there. A lot has changed in Iran in those 30 years. Also the ‘fundamentalism’ in the area … There is certainly a huge difference between the rigid Saudi Wahabbis and the permanent discussions in Shia Islam in Iran.

Posted by: b | Jun 26 2009 6:44 utc | 24

Hasho @13 some myths about Iran and its economy
myth 1
myth 2

Posted by: hans | Jun 26 2009 7:05 utc | 25

i agree china. this many new drop ins can’t be a coincidence.
I’ve been sipping whiskey here with my back to the wall at the far end of the bar for years now.
yada yada yada and you just happen to pipe in for who?? the fresh newbie hasho?
jesus fucking christ. skip the intro why doncha.

Posted by: annie | Jun 26 2009 7:24 utc | 26

sorry. i shouldn’t have said that. i just miss the old days.

Posted by: annie | Jun 26 2009 7:31 utc | 27

Forgetfulness is a sweet virtue, sometimes.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 26 2009 8:24 utc | 28

but if i was khamenei’s publicist i’d advise him to do the moonwalk at this mornings prayer
this is one of the funniest things I have ever read here. thanks

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 26 2009 10:01 utc | 29

Darn. You guys figured me out. I’m a mole. My real name is Chiam ben Israeli and I work for Mossad. I’ll have to crawl back into my imperialist mole hole and hatch newer and better plans on how to change your minds regarding Iran. I have and will continue to dedicate my life to this. It is after all the most important thing in the world.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 26 2009 10:07 utc | 30

Thanks, Chiam.
Have you thought about Goa, lately?
We’ll all understand if you decide you need a few months off.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 26 2009 10:16 utc | 31

Khodafez Chiam,
Be sure to take your crank-list with you in your lunchbox, you never know when you might next need to refer to it.

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 10:34 utc | 32

Iran and Propaganda

The British state run BBC and American state run VOA both broadcast in Farsi. These supposed Farsi services pump anti Iranian government propaganda into Iran round the clock, their purpose is to sow discord, incite violence and ethnic tensions, and spread disinformation. The Western media as been at the heart of the failed fascist coup against the Islamic Republic of Iran.
General Ali Fazli,
Earlier the BBC reported that the Islamic Revolution Guard commander, General Ali Fazli, had been removed for refusing to obey the orders issued by the Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei.
General Ali Fazli categorically refuted the false claims. He said that he is always ready to follow orders issued by the Leader of the Islamic Revolution

Iran and Propaganda – http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jun/22

1.35pm:
General Ali Fazli, recently appointed as commander of Seiyed al-shohada of the Revolutionary Guards in Tehran province, has been arrested for refusing to carry Khamenei’s order to use force against demonstrators, according to an unconfirmed report on the Balatarin, spotted by Robert Tait.
Earlier reports suggested that Fazli, who lost an eye during Iran’s war with Iraq, had been sacked for his non-compliance. He is said to have been taken to an unknown location after his “arrest”. Could this be a first sign of a split among the upper echelons in the security forces?

Where is my vote?

Where is my vote? That is the slogan – written in English of course, not Farsi – of the demonstrators protesting the defeat of Mir-Hossein Moussavi in last Friday’s presidential elections. It’s supposed to be a powerful slogan but it’s not. Over 13 million votes were cast for Mir-Hossein Moussavi, millions in Tehran, but a week on and the demonstrations have only been in their hundreds of thousands and mainly in the reformist heartland of Northern Tehran. So the question isn’t where are the votes; it’s where are are Moussavi’s voters?
For every one of Moussavi’s voters on the demonstration, there are over 12 not protesting. If they really believed they had been robbed of their vote – where the hell are they?

Where is my vote? In Pictures

Iranian expatriates and supporters in cities around the world launch a massive public relations campaign following the disputed election results. Click through and see the protests in the world’s major cities.

Extremely well co-ordinated, worldwide, banners, posters, etc, a single universal slogan, and all in a virtual spontaneous response, from the Iranian emigres and expatriates … grassroots or pre-planned and prepared ‘astroturf’ …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 10:36 utc | 33

Hm, back on topic …
Iran and Propaganda – http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jun/22

1.35pm:
General Ali Fazli, recently appointed as commander of Seiyed al-shohada of the Revolutionary Guards in Tehran province, has been arrested for refusing to carry Khamenei’s order to use force against demonstrators, according to an unconfirmed report on the Balatarin, spotted by Robert Tait.
Earlier reports suggested that Fazli, who lost an eye during Iran’s war with Iraq, had been sacked for his non-compliance. He is said to have been taken to an unknown location after his “arrest”. Could this be a first sign of a split among the upper echelons in the security forces?

Iran and Propaganda

The British state run BBC and American state run VOA both broadcast in Farsi. These supposed Farsi services pump anti Iranian government propaganda into Iran round the clock, their purpose is to sow discord, incite violence and ethnic tensions, and spread disinformation. The Western media as been at the heart of the failed fascist coup against the Islamic Republic of Iran.
General Ali Fazli,
Earlier the BBC reported that the Islamic Revolution Guard commander, General Ali Fazli, had been removed for refusing to obey the orders issued by the Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei.
General Ali Fazli categorically refuted the false claims. He said that he is always ready to follow orders issued by the Leader of the Islamic Revolution

PS. I don’t subscribe to the characterization of a ‘failed fascist coup’, but that’s Italian(Sicilian) Anarchists for you … such emotive language … take with a grain of salt

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 10:48 utc | 34

and …
Where is my vote?

Where is my vote? That is the slogan – written in English of course, not Farsi – of the demonstrators protesting the defeat of Mir-Hossein Moussavi in last Friday’s presidential elections. It’s supposed to be a powerful slogan but it’s not. Over 13 million votes were cast for Mir-Hossein Moussavi, millions in Tehran, but a week on and the demonstrations have only been in their hundreds of thousands and mainly in the reformist heartland of Northern Tehran. So the question isn’t where are the votes; it’s where are are Moussavi’s voters?
For every one of Moussavi’s voters on the demonstration, there are over 12 not protesting. If they really believed they had been robbed of their vote – where the hell are they?

Where is my vote? In Pictures

Iranian expatriates and supporters in cities around the world launch a massive public relations campaign following the disputed election results. Click through and see the protests in the world’s major cities.

Comment: Extremely well co-ordinated, worldwide, banners, posters, etc, a single universal slogan, and all in a virtual spontaneous response, from the Iranian emigres and expatriates … grassroots or pre-planned and prepared ‘astroturf’ …
What’s that FoxNews bullshit blurb, Fair and Balanced, we report, you decide, or some such, gives me heartburn …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 10:53 utc | 35

Parviz & Dragonfly, be aware we Americans(meaning the government, military and alphabet agencies) are duplicitous, treacherous, utterly ruthless, scheming SOBs … much worse than the ‘Old Fox’ … …
We led them to believe … your Shia brothers and sisters … and sat back and watched ’em slaughtered … the last thing I would wish on Iranians is ‘external’ assistance re thier internal domestic political disputes …
1991 uprisings in Iraq

The 1991 uprisings in Iraq were a series of anti-governmental rebellions in southern and northern Iraq during the aftermath of the Gulf War. The revolt was fueled by the perception that the power of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was vulnerable at the time; as well as by heavily fueled anger at government repression and the devastation wrought by two wars in a decade, the Gulf War and the Iran–Iraq War. United States also had a role in instigating the uprisings, which were then controversially not aided by the U.S. forces present on Iraqi soil.
-snip-
They were ruthlessly crushed by the loyalist forces spearheaded by the Iraqi Republican Guard and the population was successfully terrorized. During the few weeks of unrest tens of thousands of people were killed. Many more died during the following months, while nearly two million Iraqis fled for their lives. In the aftermath, the government intensified the forced relocating of Marsh Arabs and the draining of the Iraqi marshlands, while the Allies established the Iraqi no-fly zones.

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 11:09 utc | 36

china_hand2 @32 them choosen few are really not welcome in Goa. Ask a Goan not involved in the big E.

Posted by: hans | Jun 26 2009 11:26 utc | 37

Fellow tinfoil hat wearers… I never realized how many of us were drinking at the bar, I’d never seen your tinfoil hats until now.
What I have a hard time understanding is how you can buy into the idea some secrete society is gaming your little blog which accounts for zilch as far as anyone is really concerned… it’s fun and interesting and occasionally informative, but MoA is hardly setting the whole world on fire…
There is something like what, two million plus hits in five years? Not exactly the viral youtube video that is getting two million hits a day is it?
And still several of you are insisting that some group is bothering MoA ’cause we’re so informative and dangerous, yet you can’t buy into the idea that a government had anything to do with 9/11, sheese, talk about dreamers, and I thought I was a self-centered conspiracy kook.
I’ll give you there are lots and lots of assholes in cyberspace… and a bar like this is going to attract them, and at times like these they are gonna wander in the door in groups, just like anytime some “big” thing is happening. Are they aligned to destroy MoA? Besides the rather loose and hollywood-themed group china_hand2 listed:
Fanatical zionists. Fanatical neo-cons. Fanatical military police. Fanatical neo-nazis.
These all sound really scary, but these don’t sound very government. What fanatical military police… I find that military police tend to be better educated and easier to deal with compared to your average city cop… but then that’s almost like saying I like being burned more by boiling water than molten metal ’cause the water ain’t as hot. It seems that “cops” are worst the less power they have… starts at rent-a-cop and moves up to FBI agent from there.
If I was going to buy into cops watching our going-ons I’d have picked something that sounds plausible like maybe NYNY’s copshop… But I’m off track.
What I’m trying to do is find-out if what worries you is a secret society or just a bunch of lone nuts? Because I agree there are always lone nuts (like me) lurking in cyberspace. But the government ain’t big enough to patrol the whole of cyberspace the way you think.
The thing is, of those four, i know for a fact that the neo-cons and zionists hire “public relations firms” to manipulate sites like Wikipedia and to target selected blogs and news-sites, while the military habitually collects web-data to sift for likely terrorists and their supporters. For their part, neo-nazis generally are just assholes with too much time on their hands.
The big government computer sifting through web traffic isn’t sentient… at least I hope to D_g it isn’t, so I doubt it’s posting here.
Why don’t y’all spend time worrying about conspiracies that have/are happening that really affect the entire world rather than getting all pissy about some silly drunks in the bar?
If this sort of talk keeps up b should try and license Moon of Alabama aluminum foil as a way to make some money from this project (unless he is being secretly funded by the blackshirted hidden secret society of germans trying to make the rest of us look like real kooks) ’cause we must be using lots of foil these days.

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 26 2009 12:23 utc | 38

I think Hasho’s arguments are so off base I suspect them. You won’t hear me call out people, or impugn their motive, we can’t know those.
Most honest discourse has contradictions, but Hasho begs the wackos to stand up and be counted. Hasho, your arguments are so poorly made, they really expose you as a sophist.
Why are you a sophist, I don’t know. Think your arguments through and remove the self defeating contradictions and, if you have some thought which you’d like to share, go ahead.
But please, don’t bring that weak shit. I want you to specifically reflect on what reforms have we seen? How appreciably are our gov’t different from Iran?
I don’t understand your comparison between Nuclear development in India/Pakistan with Iran. Are you ignorant of the sanctions the Iranian gov’t has been under for 30 yrs?
Iran’s first nuclear technology came the same way as did Indo/Pak, WE GAVE IT TO THEM. We gave the Shah the first nuclear technology to enter than country. But, now that Iran refuses to be manipulated about they are removed from the club.
Liberals must support FIRST the right of people to govern themselves. That comes with rights to pursue trade, and travel. The US refuses to extend this to Iran. How can anyone judge the Mullah’s performance, they are defensive for good reason.

Posted by: scott | Jun 26 2009 12:41 utc | 39

First calling me a newbie is a joke. I have been posting here, though infrequently, way before the whole Iran saga started. Been lurking before that for almost a year-again infrequently- depending on the time I have.
Scott, calling me a sophist and my comments off base is no answer. We are discussing Iran and not the US on this thread so there is no reason for me to first compare the US situation with Iran situation and then express my thoughts on Iran.
I am running out of time again so I will pick up this thread or some other thread to comment on the iran situation but one thing is clear- there are no liberal and progressive ideas that the mullahs in Iran support. The only thing we see is its anti-america stand but as I explained in my previous posts, I don’t see the mullah supporting people even in the neighboring countries that are actually at war and have been brazenly attacked by the US.
Hans- thanks for the links. I will go through them as I find time today and will comment on them too.
Instead of calling me or others trolls, intelligent posters here should present the counter-arguments and not conspiracy theories. we certainly don’t expect that from the politically sharp people here.

Posted by: Hasho | Jun 26 2009 13:19 utc | 40

Amir@30
Good to hear your confession. But you spelled your real name wrong. It is Chaim, not Chiam. Poor planning.

Posted by: ensley | Jun 26 2009 13:27 utc | 41

@37:
The webpage i edited over on Wikipedia didn’t get many hits, either.
But the information it provided was something many people don’t want to answer for, don’t want to discuss, and would prefer not to be seen.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 26 2009 13:32 utc | 42

As a guy who always got called a mole here for, I don’t know, the Rosicrucians or something, we are pleased to report that I and my shadowy puppetmasters do not give a shit which autocrat wins in Iran. But the paranoia about monitoring and provocation is very, very healthy and adaptive, and the point that MOA is too small to matter (e.g. @37) is mistaken. Hits are inversely proportional to the effectiveness of places like this and in fact, more could be said and get done in a place with restricted access, ’nuff said.

Posted by: …—… | Jun 26 2009 13:47 utc | 43

@…—…
LOL. Go Rosicrucian shadowy puppetmasters ! 🙂

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 26 2009 13:53 utc | 44

I wasn’t arguing about your experience at Wiki… that is a conspiracy I can buy into.
When I first walked into the bar, back last august I think it was, I’d have bought into the whole “paid government moles” but I’ve done quite a bit of thinking about this…
I came to give a shit because of 9/11 and when I began to travel through cyberspace looking for information I floated through some real cesspools of webpages, it took me a while before I found anyplace that seemed to have anything to offer besides a bunch of angry wackos spouting hate. When I found the Moon I found a place where the posters are constantly challenging each other but not in a hateful way, at least normally.
During the Gaza Horrors I really felt there were some paid assholes posting to start shit, but thinking about it I came to the conclusion that it would be a waste of time to target us with paid phony posters, who might develop a human side interacting with us; go native as it were. Why should the government chance this when there are plenty of idiots discovering the internet on their own everyday?
Come-on, really, how many misinformed idiots do you run into everyday? I usually have to stop counting when I run out of fingers (unless of course I’m wearing sandals); How many of these types probably know how to turn-on a computer? Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at.
The government is gonna try and take the whole site off the web rather than twist your mind up with moles and secret agents. I know it makes it much more fun to post thinking that you’re tweaking the government’s nose directly, but that isn’t the case.
If any of us mattered they’d find some “child porn” on your hard drive and you’d never be respected again (unless of course your a priest). So quit worrying and looking out a crack in your blinds every ten minutes.
The neighbors are beginning to worry and when that happens they’ll call the cops… then you’ll have shit to worry about!

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 26 2009 13:57 utc | 45

…it would be a waste of time to target us with paid phony posters, who might develop a human side interacting with us; go native as it were.
First, professional think-tank types aren’t in the government per se; they’re just hired by political parties and their backers. Think “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth”, or AIPAC.
Second, i think you over-estimate, by far, the capacity for anyone to change the mind of the type of person who would work as a professional propagandist. You’ve heard annie and i mention “hasbara”, no doubt. Have you looked into that, any? Do you know what we’re referring to?
Those are the types of folks i’m talking about; now, hasbara people aren’t necessarily paid. But i’ve run into people, in real life, who were; they’re paid to view certain people and organizations as “the enemy”, paid to focus on a select few PR points, and their postings and content are watched over to see if they’re succeeding at propagating what they’re being asked to advertise. They develop teams and camaraderies, and they function in the same shadowy areas of knowledge as “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth”.
Now, tell me: how many of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have come out and actually, publicly admitted that they were lying bastards who were paid (and paying) people to propagate their lies with the intent of swaying an election with falsehood? None that i know of. How many of them do you think could’ve been convinced to “change their minds”, so to speak?
Combining hired staff, specialists, and the “veterans” themselves, there were scores of those people. Do you think any of those paid folk bothered to question whether or not the “veterans” were acting like the cynical bastards they so obviously were? Do you think any of them could’ve been swayed by any amount of exposure to reason, logic, and the facts?
That’s the kind of person i’m talking about, and all the large, US regional and national political and business centers are filled with ’em, more than enough of a pool for AIPAC or some other group to recruit a few teams to manage.
Now, would some guy like, say, Chiam know that his buddy on the internet, there, is a paid operative for a DC PAC? No. Chiam — or Amir, or billybob, or Ultramarine, or whatever other name you want to invent — is just some bored, gullible, fearful guy who wants to go harass some people who don’t think like he does, for a while. Or who believes s/he’s working to defend the United States. Or believes s/he’s working to free his countrymen from the throes of dictatorship. Or believes s/he’s working to protect Jews from the second Shoah. Or who believes s/he’s rescuing the truth from benighted bigots.
Go hang out on IRC for a while. I’m sure you’ll be able to corroborate what i’m saying.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 26 2009 14:57 utc | 46

The Brit leftists, as exemplifed on Lenin’s Tomb (only a very superficial and occasional reading by me, so open to hear more) are all for cultural relativism, and decry anti-muslim sentiment, lots of discussions there on Burqas and so on, they are looking to hook up, err, liaise with their brothers and sisters in Egypt, Iraq. etc.
The category referred to are workers, and the questions often turn around pay, unions, etc.
Well and good. Proper and right!
Their tortuous discussions of what is the right way to achieve any advance are disheartening. They get bogged down in theory and PC correct attidudes and can’t really grasp injustice (imho.)
They accept that 9/11 was the work of Islamist terrorists, but excuse it, following Chomsky, as a ‘blow-back‘ – a legitimate reaction to past insult, oppression, control, attack.
(Huh? Pity the poor misguided and absolve their sins, Kumbaya!)
They accept the GB. Gvmt scenario, but want to be more kind-hearted. The sins of the father and so on.
In this way, they support the PTB, by serving up a more compassionate face on things. Muslim neighbors are sweet people. Thatcher and Blair were liars.. (eh, they were elected massively many times.)
Workers of the World, Unite! – Illusions.
Caviar left. Stooges. Still at heart imperialists.
And they completely ignore economic issues, it is all ideology and PC ness.
/end rant/

Posted by: Tangerine | Jun 26 2009 15:20 utc | 47

First, what’s IRC?
Second, so we agree there isn’t a government conspiracy to troll this blog? That’s what I was saying, and I agree there are plenty of dorks who post half-cocked crocks of shit; I remember numbers of them during Gaza, but I don’t think they really do much harm to us, and I still feel as long as our arguments are voiced intelligently and we do our best to present proofs for our arguments then there is a far better chance of us to change their minds then it is for them to change ours.
There are some very powerful ideas exchanged in here and as such these ideas have a way of infecting the people who come into contact with them.
I freely admit I think much differently about the world since stepping in here, and this is what keeps me coming back, “wasting” my time (I often think about what I could be doing if I wasn’t typing)
There is a lot we can teach each other, if we can get past all the stupid paranoid bullshit. I don’t know why everyone likes to paint some posters as disinformation specialist when in all likelyhood the worst are probably bored high school or college students just seeing if they can get a rise out of anyone.
I you start giving the jerks power by associating them with something like hasbara, then you’re fighting a battle in your mind against yourself. Why not just consider them jerks and let MoA move on while ignoring their taunts. Or better yet someone could create a post that answers most of the silly bullshit we see posted again and again… then when the posting gets weird, it would be easy to post that, rather than give the creeps power by engaging them.
As you said you aren’t gonna change the mind of the worst of them so why waste any effort on them by posting angry crap back or even snide remarks?

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 26 2009 15:26 utc | 48

Anne darling, If you took the time to follow my little old name with two or three clicks you would quickly be able to read where I do hang out and type too much. You would know in a heartbeat, if anything, I am an anti spook. I’m not important, but your easy trigger happy tin foil readiness borders on the level of paranoia in need of a prescription.
Take longer walks… listen to more music… and don’t hit the good folks over the head with empty bottles. Recycle!

Posted by: Eureka Springs | Jun 26 2009 15:39 utc | 49

@47 – there is a far better chance of us to change their minds then it is for them to change ours
There are some very powerful ideas exchanged in here and as such these ideas have a way of infecting the people who come into contact with them

look at this from another angle then, as pointed out earlier – efforts not to sway the regular contributors here, but to provide enough reason for the passerby to form an incorrect opinion of what the place is about & maybe then walk on by or something. efforts to discredit the joint. think about all of those wild mis-characterizations of what others here have said or believe – esp the proprietor of this blog – and that make an effort to place the entire readership in specific containers. regular readers here know that this is mostly b.s., but for someone who hasn’t been around to put such accusations into context…

Posted by: b real | Jun 26 2009 16:23 utc | 50

Why not just consider them jerks and let MoA move on while ignoring their taunts.
Typically i do.
But i don’t like to pretend like this sorta thing doesn’t go on, when it really does — and a lot more than people think.
IRC stands for Internet Relay Chat. It’s a chat-system that’s utterly unregulated, where chat groups can be created ad-hoc, and where a little bit of hacking goes a long, long way.
It’s where the script-kiddies like to hang out, and where a lot of those Wikipedia cliques do their scheming.
Yahoo! Groups is another one. There are other places, too.
I agree it’s not good to feed the trolls. But it’s also just as counter-productive to insist they’re not there, and can’t do you any harm.
But i agree with you on the most important thing:
I’ve learned a lot by staying with this blog, and i’m happy the regulars are keeping it alive.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 26 2009 16:34 utc | 51

Agreed… at 9/11 truth.com there is a few embedded links to help newbies wade through a lot of the stranger ideas. I suggested something like that be built into b’s front page and when things get weird, just keep posting the link.
You’re never gonna be able to have an open forum and not have a bunch of idiots walking into the place, any public space is like this. I can’t even count the times I’ve rudely forced a few of my beliefs on folks after over-hearing them talking about something I thought was stupid. What makes me the god of ideas? Or anyone?
I’d be willing to bet that with a lot of time and desire, one could search the archives and find a post that makes any of us look stupid… maybe even b 🙂
But how we choose to deal with these new comers will decide how they view us and b’s blog.
I know it is hard to argue the same point over and over to people that will probably never give a shit… like lecturing teenagers to not have sex, you’re gonna be overwhelmed by the numbers pushing against you.
I can’t believe that anyone here really gives two cents about what some net-surfer thinks after reading the front page and three post, really who cares? If they think we’re a bunch of kooky racist fools from such little information, then that’s their problem. If people don’t stick around because they think MoAns suck then good for us, less chaff to wade through.
Anyone who spends a couple of hours here realizes that this isn’t a place people come just to have bar fights… there are informative discussions and sometimes, even when a chair gets thrown, it is done with such verbal grace that it is kind of fun to witness. Not scary at all.
I think there are far better things to worry about, like about everything. But the wishful paranoia that visits as frequently as the kooks seems to keep some here happy and I guess I don’t want to rain on their paranoia parade.

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 26 2009 16:46 utc | 52

DavidS says, …when I began to travel through cyberspace looking for information I floated through some real cesspools of webpages, it took me a while before I found anyplace that seemed to have anything to offer besides a bunch of angry wackos spouting hate. When I found the Moon I found a place where the posters are constantly challenging each other but not in a hateful way, at least normally.
I believe most of us here (at least most of the old bees still hanging around) can agree on that. I’ve appreciated your being here David and if I were to try to name names your’s would not be on my list.
And along the same line I like Outraged’s post: Though it does speak to ‘projection’, and along with the nature of the rest of the incessant ‘chafe’ a desire to denigrate and or nullify the MOA as a community, voice or even ‘drop-in’ watering hole … if one doesn’t care to learn, debate, discuss or inform civilly, and has no respect for the forum, it’s host or posters, why the obsessive bombastic posting … intent … the intent is to achieve what, precisely ?
This watering hole offers an scarce but nourishing drink for the thirsty, nay parched intellectual looking for intelligent and civil discussion. For the last two weeks we have been inundated with repetitious argument/claims of those trying to force their beliefs or agendas down our throats. If they were guests in my home and insisted on continuing in their obnoxious ways, I’d throw them out on their ear. If they showed the respect of a half way gracious guest I would listen to them discuss and then drop it to move on if our differences didn’t seem reconcilable. Bernhard’s forbearance in allowing their derision to continue speaks of an very gracious host and belie’s all the invective that has been heaped on him lately.
I asked Praviz a few posts ago why he continues to beat his head against a wall when he is obviously failing to convince anybody here. His response seemed to pick up partially in what I was suggesting but he has continued wasting bandwidth, to say nothing of the readers time who are trying to give him a fair hearing. I still think Praviz does not embody sinister intent but his continuing behavior has negated any sympathy I held for him and his arguments. I will not label him but his behavior, unwitting or not, follows that of the patsy.
Others here speak mole to me but I really don’t know. I just know that my experience of their behaviors fits the pattern. And that’s tnot just from the newbies.

Posted by: Juannie | Jun 26 2009 16:54 utc | 53

To all –
I don’t think there is a campaign or something like that that drives people with different opinions here.
In this case it is quite simple – MoA had a lot of posts on the Iranian election which had a different view than the mainstream media and these posts were linked at lots of other places. Anytime such happens new commentators will join the discussion here and some of them will have opinions that diverge from the usual MoA frame.
That is natural for all the blogsphere and it does not need government intervention to achieve that.
I welcome all new commentators (with very few exceptions – racists etc.). The welcomed ones certainly include Hasho, loyal, Amir S, Hans and Dragonfly as well as others. Some of you will stay and adapt to the crowd and general theme, some of you will leave again when the subject changes. That is all fine with me. Please add to the discussion, if possible in a peaceful manner and with supporting facts.

Posted by: b | Jun 26 2009 17:03 utc | 54

what remains a huge mystery to me is Antifa. I just don’t get it. Fantastic links and a good understanding of how things work and then he throws a very mean spirited temper tantrum when discussing the Iranian election.
it is as if slothrop had taken over his keyboard.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 26 2009 17:16 utc | 55

b-
You are such a gracious host it brings tears to my eyes.
Now if the rest of the world were as gracious we could maybe solve all the world’s problems in a couple of hours and a couple of pitchers.
A toast to b!

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 26 2009 17:36 utc | 56

As ever, b is a perspicacious and benevolent host.
And certainly the reason it’s still running, after all its been thru.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 26 2009 17:49 utc | 57

eureka, i know. that is why i apologized. sorry again.
ok ok i just have to go w/the flo-master b.

Posted by: annie | Jun 27 2009 2:58 utc | 58

b thx for all you do.

Posted by: Tangerine | Jun 27 2009 13:34 utc | 59

It’s a mistake to think that neocons “traveled from left to right”. This mistake is common, people rarely understand what is left and what is right. To put the long story in a few words:
Communism always had a goal of making world revolution. The revolution had a goal of concentrating power in a few hands. This is why communists’ central thesis was prohibition of private ownership of the means of production. The most far-reaching was Trotzki’s plan of permanent revolution.
Now, who the neocons were? They were trotzkiists. They now continue their plan – concentration of power in a few hands, making all the population of the Globe into EMPLOYEES. The common mistake here is that corporations are considered a capitalist form of ownership. In fact corporations are socialist institutions. They are owned by shareholders (i.e. by “all people”), and managed by appointed executives. They do business on the taxpayers’ money. They make no profit (dividends are practically a zero). All this and a dozen of other features show that corporations are not private business, they are a part of the government, exactly as it was in communist Russia. All people, including the heads of the corporations are EMPLOYEES.
Therefore, corporate “infrastructure” is communism, not capitalism. And the neocons remain trotzkiists, an extreme left. That they use wars and lies to establish the New World Order is clearly a communist tactics in the world communist revolution. The NWO is a communist regime for the entire world. Neocons never changed into right, they are extreme left.

Posted by: Michael Pyshnov | Jun 28 2009 7:08 utc | 60

What the fuck????

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 28 2009 17:20 utc | 61