Iran Lost The Propaganda War
Der Spiegel once was a somewhat lefty German weekly magazine. Recently it turned into a propaganda tool of the right. It has quite an influence, its sold circulation is over one million each week.
The increase of such quite ridiculous but effective propaganda like the above is the direct consequence of Mousavi's challenge of the state of Iran. He declared himself the winner in the election even before the vote count began. When the results were announced he alleged massive fraud without presenting any convincing evidence.
That again triggered big demonstrations of people who believed his allegations. When these non-rebellions turned into violent youth riots the state of Iran, like any other state on this planet would have done, asserted itself and suppressed them.
This again was a real gift for anti-Iran propagandists and their work will hurt Iran's image in the 'west' for a long time. When Iran's leaders are openly associated with bin-Laden in major publications Iran has lost the propaganda war.
I will not be surprised to see Mousavi punished for the obvious damage he has done to his country. But that would again only play right into the hand of the propagandists. Maybe he should be send off to some small town in the counryside where he can learn how the people living there really think. Give him a stern advice not to talk to the media and let him paint more pictures.
Posted by b on June 24, 2009 at 16:42 UTC | Permalink
« previous page | next page »Dragonfly, that was brilliant, but you can go hoarse trying to explain the true nature of this totalitarian state, and these armchair revolutionaries still won't get it.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:30 utc | 102
annie, Lorena Bobbitt... Don't you think that's a rather SHARP response? And is Lorena Bobbitt one name, or two?
I didn't understand your analogy... but from what I understood, if I were your husband, I'd have to consider buying a stainless steel cup ;O
Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 21:33 utc | 103
The idea was to see if you appreciate other cultures. You did as all Lizards do. :)
have i given any indication i don't appreciate other cultures? anyway, i'm an american, and being ignorant of other cultures is like a birthright or something.
i was, however, once told by a native american that i was okay, for a white guy, which was a really nice compliment.
Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 21:33 utc | 104
Lizard
I didn't say how you did. I simply said you did as other lizards do. Don't sweat it. The whole thing was simpler than that.
Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 21:36 utc | 105
Mr Obamageddon,
I'm not exactly sure how I've insulted you, but if you feel insulted, let me be the first to apologize for writing something that you felt was insulting.
Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 21:36 utc | 106
I simply said you did as other lizards do. Don't sweat it.
I lol'd.
Posted by: conqueso (formerly -c) | Jun 24 2009 21:37 utc | 107
thank you, once again -c, for injecting your much needed perspective.
Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 21:38 utc | 108
conqueso (my favorite Mexican dish is Quesadilla con queso):
Hans made the cardinal sin, in my eyes, of making a totally insensitive, brutal comment:
"Now I believe the time has come to severly crack down on the Gucci protestors."
Before upbraiding me you shoud warn Hans to watch his filthy mouth when my unarmed countrymen are being tortured daily, shot in the streets, forcibly removed from hospitals and carted off to prison (several of my doctor friends have confirmed this to me). Hans doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and dares to come on this Blog and advocate a "severe crackdown" of the protesters. What are you, Hans, a Neo-Nazi?
If Hans is really in touch with real Iranians he would realize that no 'crackdown' could be 'tougher'.
My response to Hans, in the circumstances, was mild, and you shouldn't have stoked the flames further and forced me to reveal what I really felt about his asinine post.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:40 utc | 109
and I compliment you, Lizard, for being a good sport about the poetry thing.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:41 utc | 110
r'giap: "i'm possibly the only communist here. perhaps the last one."
I can assure you that you are not!
Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 24 2009 21:41 utc | 111
for fighting the man
you're not an owner of virtue
unless before you make a stand
you ask me which words can hurt you
cuz I can wield a slogan
everything I say is a token
of the images in my head that are broken
as if I'd make sense if awoken
from the slumbers made by the heroin I been smokin
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 21:45 utc | 112
thanks parviz, maybe we should argue in verse more often; disagreement seems less inflammatory when it rhymes.
Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 21:45 utc | 113
accustomed as i am to the fictions, deceptions, lies & myths - quite frankly i read very little what you & amir write. dragonfly i read with a little more concentration - not that i believe her but i respect the effort she applies in telling her 'story' - even if she's paid for it
& i must admit, her schoolmarmish writing reminds me of a pedagogy of perdition - you know the once bitten twice shy but i read her. on ther other hand i will predict that each day you will call forth the oncoming 'victories' & i shall not believe even a breath
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 21:46 utc | 114
Jeez, slothrop, quatrain versus rap. You would have done Eminem proud with that one.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:47 utc | 115
David, I'll answer your excellent questions tomorrow (your time) = today my time. My eyes are getting heavy. Goodnight everyone (except for the usual suspects who I hope have terrifying nightmares of being in Evin prison and realizing their jewels are on fire).
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:51 utc | 116
parviz
you should go to sleep now, as much for our sake as for yours & your family
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 21:53 utc | 117
Parviz,
You have more to tell those of us who are eager to learn about developments in Iran than about the deficiencies of your detractors.
I don't want less of you, I want more!
Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 24 2009 21:53 utc | 118
I don't want less of you, I want more!
didn't parvis threaten us earlier it was going to be his last post on the subject. or am i having wet dreams again.
Posted by: annie | Jun 24 2009 21:55 utc | 119
remembergiap
dragonfly i read with a little more concentration - not that i believe her but i respect the effort she applies in telling her 'story' - even if she's paid for it
I am not paid to post here. Would it be too much for you to stop hurling accusations around?
Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 21:56 utc | 120
Would it be too much for you to stop hurling accusations around?
yes it would! now shut yer trap and take it like a newbie.
Posted by: annie | Jun 24 2009 21:59 utc | 121
I'm a communist from way back
I saw it in a movie by otto preminger
I'm especially vicious after I smoke my smack
my words are piss and vinegar
but the ideas are there
maybe it was a film starring doris day
or an hallucinatory reading of a song by cher
I read tjhe grundrisse...well half way
the old boy lost me in his anastophes
more like one reads what one understands
not understand what one reads
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 22:00 utc | 122
Why so much Moon fuss
now than for Kerry's stolen
votes in Ohio?
We've all lost to the PTB, all of us who care about "democracy," whatever that ever pretended to be. I'll miss Antifa as I do Malooga.
Posted by: catlady | Jun 24 2009 22:02 utc | 123
more like one reads what one understands
not understand what one reads
slothrop, that's a some sweet word masonry.
Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 22:03 utc | 124
miss annie
while parviz sleeps i will tell you, more or less, what parviz will say in the coming days, the mobilisation of a general stike is well...mobilising, that though every sate has a right to its security & & that the repressive state apparatus - has kept well within the limits of security used elsewhere even here, water cannons, batons & i hope have understood their errors - they will no doubt be painted as ruthless arab goons without an ounce of humanity, we will be told of the basic honour of moussavi even though we know he is mostly a machiavellean sort of character with a little blood on his hands, we will be told in 50 different permutations from 10 differnt sources that are funded by the 1 agency - that the elections were really, really rigged
for after all, the great game continues & the empire wants to eat iran - if not today, tommorrow - the empire has been humiliated by the successes of iran in the middle east & she will pay for that, if not today, then tomorrow
the empire & all its agents are doing their best to destabilise her - but we shouldn' let that get in the way of what cnn often calls 'a human story'
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 22:04 utc | 125
annie @ 121
yes it would! now shut yer trap and take it like a newbie.
Wow! I am beginning to realize the importance of foul language in the sacred, humane fight against the U.S. imperialism. So yes Maestro, I am ready for instruction. Any other words of wisdom?
Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 22:05 utc | 127
if you think your protest is sublime
then you're an assmunch
until I declare your protest mine
after I read it on counterpunch
rememberingberia
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 22:06 utc | 128
Rgap-
even though we know he is mostly a machiavellean sort of character with a little blood on his hands, we will be told in 50 different permutations from 10 differnt sources that are funded by the 1 agency - that the elections were really, really rigged
When I close my eyes and hear this, I can almost imagine you're writing this about Obama...
Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 22:09 utc | 129
slothrop
give it a rest. go & do a stayover at parviz's place - i imagine there are all sort of games there to occupy you. it'd do you goood to understand a cuulture that is not your own & a field you mistake for the world
you are no more leftist than david horowitz is & i wouldn' be surprised to find out that you are one & the same person
& a little counsel, read a little crane, maybe a little roethke, some jarrel then top it up with mr lowell - that will help you along in your current state
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 22:10 utc | 130
When dad gets back and sees what we've done to his thread... Lucy there's some 'splainin' to do!
Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 22:11 utc | 131
I dressed the wounds of the vietnsamese
or was that a hooker in a hash bar in amsterdam?
I got lost in the 60s, 70s, 80s
the nineties were all wax and wan
until I left the australias of my mind
and constructed a biography on line
and started screaming in lower caps
and made my realities on secret maps
I stow in a folder I call hysteria:
a few more facts, uh, from comrade rememberinberia
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 22:18 utc | 132
annie
ô shit i hope i am not going to have a nightmare, wet or otherwise, were slothrop & parviz appear holding aloft their copy of solzhenitsyn or dragonfly with another goddamn graph
wicked is as wicked does as wittgenstein sd to his mother somewhere in salzbourg
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 22:18 utc | 133
slothrop
let me say it very gently
you are a twisted little fucker & that much is apparent even in one line missives
in anything that requires more thought, a coherent process is completely absent, it requires for the brain to make connections, which clearly yours cannot do in this life or any other
i don't know how you got your doctorate but i imagine it was from some form of doodling or you get it from where you are by tapping on the floor like a horse
for a very long moment, you have shown a paltry understanding of national issues & on international issues, well you're so far from what is happening that i perceive you to be a not very well put together conceptual art piece - incidentally without the concept or the art
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 22:26 utc | 134
I've gotten a bit rusty in the art of citing quotations. But I recall that on or about 1914, Russian, French and British Social Democrats were talking about the necessity of overthrowing Prussian militarism. German Social Democrats were caterwauling about the Tsar being the hangman of Europe and the evils of British imperialism. And so they all went into the trenches and slaughtered each other.
V.I. Lenin took the position that it was the duty of the revolutionary to deal with their OWN bourgeoisie, not be telling the revolutionaries of other countries what they should be doing. And Lenin went forth and dealt with his own bourgeoisie.
I think the level of vitriol here is a sign of our collective impotence. Events in Iran have clearly strengthened the hand of the anti-interventionist forces in the U.S. and elsewhere, however liberal and deficient they may be. If you find this illogical, open your eyes. I find it odd that while the U.S.-Israeli intervention mantra keeps getting chanted, scant attention is being paid to what, for instance, the Israelis are actually saying.
As Zvi Bar'el wrote in Haaretz:
This is the crux of the confusion that we have stumbled upon. The grand enemy that was neatly packaged into a nuclear, Shi'ite-religious container has come apart at the seams. On the one hand, it threatens, while on the other hand it demonstrates for democracy. On one street, it raises a fist against America, and in another alley, streams of protesters march for human rights. For goodness' sake, who is left to bomb?
David Bromwich at Huffington writes:
Iran was an easier enemy before we saw their faces.
Greenwald writes about Helen Thomas at Obama's last press conference:
Helen Thomas, who hadn't been called on, interrupted to ask Obama to reconcile those statements about the Iranian images with his efforts at home to suppress America's own torture photos ("Then why won't you allow the photos --").
And Obama ducked the question.
Yes, these are liberals. But rather than sneer at liberals, we might be asking ourselves how it is that these wimpy bourgeois liberals are doing more to use the Iranian struggle to oppose U.S. intervention and advance the cause of democracy here in the United States than the supposedly more sophisticated leftists on MoA are doing. Regardless of whether the ballots were stuffed or whether Neda was wearing Guccis, this is the task.
Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 24 2009 22:29 utc | 135
Chère conqueso @101 (I am in France, that's why you are 'Chère' and not 'Dear')
it's the refusal to accept that there is another side to this conflict that is making people react strongly.
As historians see it, what Parviz says is a primary source of what he sees and hears on the ground in Tehran. It is worth a lot more than imaginings from armchairs in the US or elsewhere. He has his point of view, an objective observer wouldn't entirely agree with it, nor do I.
Posted by: Alex_no | Jun 24 2009 22:35 utc | 136
I'd love the martyrs who speak in english and persian
if they died for my religion
which is a shifting version
of clkass contempt and derision
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 22:40 utc | 137
Kleiman's blog posts an account from Teheran:
On the streets the woman are at the frontline of everything. Most carry large bags and backpacks, at first I didn't know why they had these big bags but today i figured it out when I saw young girls and even elderly woman collecting rocks and concrete pieces in their bags and handing it out to the men. Honestly, someone needs to do a story or something on how the woman are engaged in all of this. They are EVERYWHERE and right there alongside the men. Near Azadi (freedom sic! square) today I saw a group of girls my age and I was walking next to one of them with my cousins and we started to talk ... anyway, after walking a few blocks one of them said "If I am going to get hurt or die I might as well discard this farse of a joke hijab" and she just removed her head scarf, took her ponytail out and said "you know what's a shame, I have never walked through these city streets and fully felt the wind moving between my hair." I beamed, but my heart broke into so many pieces.Please tell people ONE thing, the people out in the streets are not just rich young folks from Northern Tehran. It's not the elite and spoiled. It's not just in Tehran either. It's EVERYWHERE and i have seen with my own eyes men and woman who are over 70 years old out on the streets. i have seen shop owners join the protests, I have seen people who (by their clothes, which is a big thing in this culture) look more urban and rich and those who look poor and from rural areas. There are many reports of protest in Shiraz, Tabriz, Esfehan, Rasht, Qom, etc. etc. This is not just limited to the "angry rich" as the state media is making out to be here.
Of course this may be whole cloth CIA propaganda, but I doubt it.
Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 24 2009 22:43 utc | 138
Shorter version:
Things are happening that we can't comprehend fully or control, and that sets everybody on edge.
One could ignore it all I suppose, but we have ways of dragging everybody in, whether he wants to participate or not.
Here's a short quote from Jim Marrs a few weeks ago:
"...people who disregard the subject of UFOs and who just write that off as just total fantasy and lunacy; they will never, ever, be able to figure out what’s truly happening in the world because they’re tossing out a big piece of the puzzle. It’s all part of the same big mosaic and you have to put all these pieces together to figure out what’s going on.
Just as a “for instance”: I truly believe that one of the main reasons for our precipitous invasion of Iraq was to make a beeline for Baghdad, and use a mob scene as a cover, for a very concerted effort to loot the Iraqi National Museum. What were they after? They were after newly discovered artifacts, tablets, scrolls and such that were being found in the ancient Sumerian cities of Uruk and some of these other places by French and German archaeological teams -- interestingly enough, the two countries who were most opposed to our entry into Iraq.
And what was taken? Very possibly knowledge of ancient energy manipulation technology. And this gets into anti-gravity and a bunch of weird and exotic technologies that conventional science would laugh at. But then, when you really study the issue, you find that these technologies have been worked on since at least World War II and have been kept under very ultra-secret classification programs ever since, because this is our leading edge technology.
So, you can see how it all ties together; Ancient history, UFOs, secret societies, the world government. It’s all part of the same big ball of wax, and unless you back off and take that broad overview and study a wide variety of topics, you’re never going to figure out what’s going on."
end quote
Posted by: rapt | Jun 24 2009 22:51 utc | 139
rapt, you take one more step backward and you're gonna fall into that bottomless pit of paranoia you've been digging here for the last 6 years.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 22:56 utc | 140
i see no reason to write off anything. human senses are very limited. and the universe is, well, pretty big.
Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 23:06 utc | 141
jeffroby
thi empire, this night who slaughter innocent with drones in pakistans or with the assistance of stooges, the same empire that has torn the fabric oif iraq societ apart & who is doing the impossible in afghanistan - turning ruins into ruins - there are the dead & the dead have names & the empire couldn't give a fuck
nor do the liberal left. it has been the hallmark of slothrop's oeuvre - not one dead body, not one name - if you are the other - you do not exist. they are so drowned in privilege they care only for their own skins. they don't really care for the iranians - everything history tells us is that british french & us imperialism have held her in the deepest contempt
the people in iran need greater civil rights but then so do half the world
& ask these same people whether the plaestinan democracy is respected, whether there can be an authentic democracy in lebanon, or whether the same possibility the cretinous commentators demand for iranians - why do they not demand it for egyptian, or saudis for that matter
as in iraq the people don't matter - the oil does. so too in iran. the empire is dying but it is still dreaming of geostrategic control
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 23:16 utc | 142
r'giap,
It's a tactical matter. Per Network:
Howard: (humble whisper) Why me?
Jensen: Because you're on television, dummy.
Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 24 2009 23:22 utc | 143
rememberigberia
hi empire, this night who slaughter innocent with drones in pakistans or with the assistance of stooges, the same empire that h
There is never an event you can't conflate into a justification for your "worldview."
You've pretty much shot your wad. There's no juice left. Not after you've cruelly ridiculed the inspiring bravery of the people in iran because they don't share your preferred ideas about "america" (which you also belligerently fucked up you moron. There's not the slightest sign the protesters have fallen in love with america)
You hate the people. You're a complete fraud.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 23:27 utc | 144
@jeffroby
I think the collective feeling of impotence weighs on us at times; but some time ago each of us had to become stronger in order to survive. None of us here is willing to say die, with he possible exception of slothrop, who I presume has gone mad.
The outright revolt of Iranian women would be a true revolt that would shake the country like an earthquake; but how can we be sure it's not a fable or some Hollywood-style bamboozling for consumption in the American market. We have to be wary of being manipulated. That last CNN link that sloth hooked us up with had a save me/invade me punchline, that was as subtle as a cattle prod.
We are wounded and wary and cynical; but we have had to be, so as not to be buried under a mountain of bullshit.
At least b is semi-honest. He's a bourgeois libertarian russophile and german patriot lacking a sense for contradictions. He's all anti-empire all the time, until the german government lands a big pipeline deal with kazakhstan
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 23:38 utc | 146
Tell me, how's an Oxford educated, elitist Iranian representative of an entire nation? Answer, he's not, not anymore than Deepak Chopra is representative of the U.S.
If this were a real movement and protest, something that was lasting and meaningful, people on the ground, on the frontlines in Iran, wouldn't have the time, inclination, or luxury of blogging sardonically witty poems on the internet after a long days' struggle. They'd be searching for their next meal and a safe haven in which to rest their weary and battered bones as they rested up for another day of tooth and nail.
Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 23:47 utc | 148
Iran has received horrible press in recent weeks but its people have been humanized. I am convinced it will emerge stronger, wealthier and better able to deal with negative outside influence. Citizens pressuring the government to address grievances does not make a nation weaker, but stronger. Iran will change and evolve. Its government in unlikely to collapse the way the Shaw did, but rather be forced to become better than it is.
As for losing the propaganda war, I know of a way Iran can turn the tables and win a crushing propaganda victory; announce new elections. No need to admit any fraud in this past election, just state that for the sake of national unity and so that everyone is convinced the announced winner is the true winner, we are holding a new election.
It does not matter who wins. The propaganda victory would be enormous and game changing.
Posted by: Lysander | Jun 24 2009 23:54 utc | 150
Oh god. http://www.youtube.com/watch?eurl=http%3A%2F%2Face.mu.nu%2F&feature=player_embedded&v=9V0LOA9wkm8>Another milquetoast protester today feigning death. And the katchup smeared on his shirt is just soooo tacky.
Save me/invade me. Pretty rookie thespian tragedians.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 23:54 utc | 151
obamageddon
I finally read one of your things.
You're really vile.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 23:57 utc | 152
I guess it explains why the dudes are acting on the street. No theater would ever hire them.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 23:59 utc | 153
I finally read one of your things.
You're really vile.
That's quite an honor coming from you. I greatly admire your hair shirt.
Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 25 2009 0:04 utc | 154
Copeland,
You raise a good question. There is a fine line between skepticism and cynicism. Fables will be told, and bamboozling will be done. I have no reservations about the depth of evil that imperialism will stoop to if it serves its interests, and sometimes even when it doesn't.
But I have a certain faith in the human spirit as well. What does it say about humanity to deny that the demonstrators could be sincere? How hard must one's heart be to deny the reality of those women marching in the streets to the music of gunfire? How can one not see how Americans are being moved by Iranian events and have any hope at all for progress?
That's not to say that we don't need hard-headed analysis. Per Brecht's To Posterity: "Not fulfillment of desire but forgetfulness Passes for wisdom." But the leftist attitude masquerading as wisdom that the U.S. and/or Israel can somehow do all, win all, may be a healthy reaction to liberal pollyanism, but it is no better.
Certainly I've had my share of betrayals and defeats. To quote Brecht again: "without me The rulers would have been more secure. This was my hope."
Remember that not every movement has been crushed, and that there is some reason why the imperialists haven't done all that they would like to have done. The developing Iran/Russia/China bloc is restoring the counterweight that we lost with the fall of the Soviet Union. So stay skeptical. But cynicism = death.
Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 25 2009 0:05 utc | 155
Save me/invade me. Pretty rookie thespian tragedians.
So dishonest. No one on this blog that I know of has suggested that the Protesters want to be saved/invaded. What I have asserted is that Poster Protesters will be used as propaganda by a compromised Western Press to further the cause for war with the nuclear weapon wielding, annihilationist Mullocracy of Iran.
Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 25 2009 0:09 utc | 156
Remember all the movements that weren't movements. For some reason, I can't remember any of those right now.
I like the change in terminology, though. Now it's a movement rather than a protest.
Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 25 2009 0:12 utc | 157
obamageddom
You're a very selective reader as well.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 25 2009 0:27 utc | 158
copeland is correct
we are all weary as are the people as is this world
& slothrop i am sure several years ago went quite quite mad
perhyaps he does impressions of tonto while trying to read habermas & speaking to the neighbourhood through a megaphone - that he & he alone is the people. all compressed into his overdetermined testicles
i would not worry about him obamageddon - sometimes you need a perversion of buster keaton just to keep the ticker turning
copeland, your weariness has the virtue of bringing me calm - really - just as i am about to fall in the sea of slothrops sophomoric sea of shit - your voice appears & the room is clearer for that & i know you listen in a way that demands listening - it is largely your position that has made me see this movement as a kind of civil rights movement, it is neither revolutionary or insurrectionary & i will not retreat from the position that suggest iran is in real danger from external forces but she is capable of adressing this question, this movement mre humanely. & in that lysander is correct - she will be the stronger for it
& it is only inevitable that after 6 years slothrop's sources should be cnn
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 25 2009 0:29 utc | 159
btw, what i said is the reverse of what i think
and what i now think is the reverse of what i say
one day you're a brave fighter, the next day empire's apparatcik
I'm bitter and always oppose you, my words are fey, my deeds never pay
you struggle, you say?
I love to see the boot on your throat that way.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 25 2009 0:44 utc | 160
Ohhhh...what a dickhead, rememberingberia.
You hate the people to satisfy your ideology. Third categoricaL imperative violation. You're fucking immoral.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 25 2009 0:48 utc | 161
In many ways the arguments although it is probably unwise to dignify most of what has been posted here with the title argument which implies a series of responses to each other's point of view with supporting facts, anyway these arguments, for want of a better word have little or nothing to do with what happened in Iran. That is secondary to the need many participants have to attack another probably for some slight incurred in a debate from a years old thread.
I have no doubt in believing that Parviz believes what he says, but then I have no doubt believing that other points of view from other Iranians who don't agree with Parviz are also sincerely held. Yet because Parviz has chosen to make Iran 'his/her' area of expertise anyone else, even if they appear equally qualified that is they are Iranian in Iran, can be dismissed as lying, traitorous or a tool of the oppressor. To me who currently only dips into these Iranian threads from time to time, (because there is no substance here) it seems as though Parviz is behaving like a dog (Note I am not calling Parviz a dog I am comparing Parviz' territorial behaviour to the way a dog maintains its territory. I state that in the vain hope that any response won't denigrate into the namecalling which characterises these Iranian threads)who has marked out his territory pissing along the border and anyone who comes into that territory (the territory of being an Iranian at MoA) has to either submit to Parviz by agreeing with Parviz' point of view or they are viciously set upon by the pack. Facts, beliefs, different subjective filters, all are cast aside as cries of "communist" "armchair leftie" "traitor" etc are hurled at the interloper.
ATo me, this appears to be driven by a need to address past debates where Parviz has been called out for his/her seeming support of the neo-liberal economic policies that have destroyed so many around this planet. (eg support for Oblamblam tipping billions into banksters and fuck all into more modest humans) Parviz seems to be saying "You cannot fault me here, here in this subject, I am the expert, as such, more qualified to speak on this than anyone else"
Were it that simple - residence within a community made one an expert on all facets of that community including the beliefs of people in other social groupings within that community. Politicians who spend a great deal of resources and effort trying to discern community attitudes - the better to exploit them - would never get it wrong again.
The reality is that there are many Iranians even those outside Iran who one would expect are less likely to be supportive of the status quo, who don't share Parviz' point of view, so those of us who care about the beliefs of every individual are left with a real uncertainty about whose point of view is in the majority and/or the point of view which deserves to prevail. If our point of view, whatever it may be, is even relevant.
For that is what elections are meant to be for and I have to say that while I have no doubt that voter fraud went on in various parts of Iran - from both sides - much of the fraud may even have been instigated locally without the orders or even the knowledge of the candidate - and that applies to all candidates too (many amerikan dems who were so vocal about the blatant theft in Florida during Prez 2000, never have much to say about the years of dem frauds throughout amerika when their machine was running smoothly. Rethugs could prolly claim that JFK's texans [thanks to old LBJ whose texans they really were] stole him the election against Nixon) more digression sign of an untidy mind etc- anyway fraud went on and that's bad but claiming fraud and claiming an election isn't necessarily the same thing.
There has been a murder case going on here through appeal, retrial, appeal final trial for about 12 years. I have no doubt that the police planted some evidence - why I am less sure of, because the untainted evidence should have been enough to convict the killer. Lots of arguements deteriorating to name calling just like here - many claimed the convicted killer should have been pardoned as soon as tampering was demonstrated. The murderer was released from jail and another trial held a ta distant venue, using a fresh investigative team. I felt that was fair enough - reason being that the police sometimes frame a guilty man. Remember justice is about what is best for the community not whether or not the police 'deserve' to 'win'.
Pretty much the same with elections. Given polling in the lead up to the Iranian election along with reports from observers, it could be credibly argued that the result does represent the will of most voters. I say could be because I don't have enough data to prove that point of view or the contrary one. And I have read nothing here to convince me of anything different.
Because no one really knows many people here have been discussing the issue in relation to what they do know. That is that the amerikan empire has expended a vast amount of material , money, natural resources including worst of all millions of human lives to engender hegemony over the Mid East. Much of this effort has included casting Iran and its people in the role of something evil, an enemy that must be subjugated. Iranians have attempted to deflect this ill-deserved enmity in many different ways; from straight out appeasement to open and honest assistance where realistic and relevant, to open opposition and sabre rattling. None of this has worked and it would be reasonable to infer from the empire's reaction along with imperial behaviour in towards other sovereign states, that nonthing short of unconditional surrender will ever work.
Therefore given that many MoA poster know that the amerikan empire has been actively involved in destabilising the political infrastructure of any MS state who isn't under it's hegemony that the empire is actively involved in causing trouble in Iran right now.
Can anyone offer up a cogent theory as to why amerika wouldn't be taking advantage of Iran's schism right now? As many others have stated amerika openly allocated hundreds of milliosn of dollars to destabilise Iran, amerika's best mate england coincidentally began forcing a farsi language tv station into Iran just 8 weeks before this election. During the first few days of the protesting after the election the BBC news homepage had a green background which the BBC claim was just coincidence not any covert attempt to identify with the Mousavi protestors who were also wearing green. Some may choose to believe that, some may not, but only a fool would imagine that USukil are not trying to turn Iran's instability to their own ends.
There has been no real debate at MoA on the extent which this outside interference has effected what has happened. One group denies it has had any effect and the other appears to argue it is 100% responsible.
Generally if people try to discuss any of that they are shouted down, accused of all sorts of peversions, sexual, moral and political.
This is crazy because there is plenty of stuff around from all sides about the techniques of and effectiveness of strategies used in other countries other election. There is checkable data even if not always agreed upon (eg how much infuence did amerikan election consultants have on Yeltsin's re-election)
Antifa reckons he/she has shot through for good, which if true I am saddened by.
I do hafta say some posters are displaying extreme histrionics, shouting, name-calling, walking out, all of which remind me of a wife of long ago. Always wanting to argue, scream, caterwaul at the slightest provocation ( well this how it appeared to me the objective husband lol) She was at her worst when she had least to justify her stance, on the weakest ground about the issue which was upsetting her so much.
I don't understand many of the behaviours in this thread. Most of us are mature enough to recognise that no one has ever been convinced of an alternative point of view by this sort of argument. Even presenting someone with a well constructed argument supported by checkable facts rarely gets a person to say "You're correct I am wrong, lets proceeed on that basis". Yes the well constructed argument will convince a fair minded person. Just usually not immediately. Acknowledgement of the change of heart comes at a later date when a well adjusted person allows superior evidence to out, but only when issues of ego (ie nobody around shouting "see I told ya so ya fucking idiot") are off the table.
So why is this thread still yammering away? Blind Freddie could see no one is going to agree with their opponent.
B kicks off a thread with a piece about how Spiegel is firmly in the election was stolen, innocent demonstrators are being murdered camp - what should we make of this stance by speigel? what does it mean inside Iran that Iran's obvious enemies are using the situation to further vilify Iran in the 'west'?
Reasonable questions that are worth considering - does anyone?
After a few posts from those who believe the election wasn't rigged and who therefore claim b's post supports that position - which it doesn't - those who claim that the election was rigged wade in. But not with any discussion of the spegiel article or the larger situation it represents, no what comes next is ahuge dummy spit as in B's a bad person and I'm never coming back.
Then back to the name calling. Which apparently is 'permissible' if it is conveyed as doggerel.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 25 2009 0:57 utc | 162
to the people of iran
it's important you die in the street
so I can mock your death
it's a part of my plan
a way for means and ends to meet
to prove my contempt for the USA
made in blood and splintered bone
I'm glad to have it that way
I laugh, knowing you're alone
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 25 2009 0:57 utc | 163
the people of iran are this dumb
my name is debs is dead, hear my views
they wouldn't know slavery
unless told they were slaves
by cnn, al-Jazeera, or foxnews.
only a man who sees his head kicked in on TV
can know the foot is attached to basiji
Thank allah the mullahs have blocked the bbc!
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 25 2009 1:09 utc | 165
Even you ought to acknowledge how completely contemptuous your final argument is: the voa started the revolution.
Why do you hate the people, debs?
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 25 2009 1:12 utc | 166
Recent US efforts to destabilize Iran.
Knowing Iranina Neo-Conservatives.
Washington’s likely plans to restore the Iranian monarchy are foolhardy
Fighting tears, shah's son calls crisis a 'moment of truth'
George W Bush 'raised $400 million for action against Iran' [Telegraph.co.uk]
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Jun 25 2009 1:31 utc | 167
slothrop@81,
whatever it is you object to, what about us ? Our objections did'nt mean squat to you when your vain, lying and self-appointed words gave voice to the needless sacrifice of over a million innocent Iraqi's.
Posted by: jony_b_cool | Jun 25 2009 2:05 utc | 168
See, I honestly don't know why you say that. It's unwarranted.
I have always opposed the war, but know that leaving was always nuts, which by this point is not controversial for people like patrick cockburn in his book on sadr I'm reading now, who concur.
Also, a big chunk of the left including many here never honestly interrogated the problem of the regime. The sanctions were inhumane & cruel. But, beyond this for b et al., it is always Saddam Forever! because saddam opposed the "empire."
Stop defaming me. It isn't cool. And people wonder here why I'm so aggressive.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 25 2009 2:42 utc | 169
Debs:"B kicks off a thread with a piece about how Spiegel is firmly in the election was stolen, innocent demonstrators are being murdered camp - what should we make of this stance by speigel? what does it mean inside Iran that Iran's obvious enemies are using the situation to further vilify Iran in the 'west'?
Reasonable questions that are worth considering - does anyone?
I just want to thank Debs for trying to bring some sanity/purpose here and some respect for our host, b. Again, b brings up a point for serious reflection. Such media portrayals never cease to amaze me. And again I say, too many of the top media people assume, maybe correctly so, that the rest of us are fools.
Posted by: Rick | Jun 25 2009 3:17 utc | 170
@168,
OK, I'll try not to make too much out of your repressed condescensions towards Iraqi's and Arabs in general
is that defaming enough ?
Posted by: jony_b_cool | Jun 25 2009 3:48 utc | 172
@Yuri
Welcome :)
Um, *ahem*, not normally, no ... however, there is a trend at critical events re some rather brutal virtual bar fights ... troublemakers usually move on after a while, coincidentally once the MSM has lost interest in the topic at hand ... pixels and text ... sticks and stones et al ...
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 25 2009 3:56 utc | 173
outraged: speaking of US MSM losing interest, i think it's already happened. thank republican governor sanford of south carolina, and his disappearance/reappearance/illicit affair/strange rambling press conference. a new political carcass for the pundit jackals to gnaw on.
debs: it hasn't been totally sectarian. there have been a few middle ground comments in the mix. by not acknowledging there are always a few voices of tempered reason, you reinforce the polarization. my 2 cents.
slothrop: you have no business criticizing r'giap's poetry. also, for what's it's worth, i think you've taken too much of whatever you're on. i'm thinking gin. or scotch. or pills. or speed. whatever, you've had enough.
Posted by: Lizard | Jun 25 2009 4:20 utc | 174
I've never groaked poetry and thus thought myself not quite whole but I just did. thanks catlady. It said more to me than two weeks of 200 comment threads.
Posted by: Juannie | Jun 25 2009 4:30 utc | 175
CNN now compares what is happening in Iran to the 1994 Rwandan genocide. See CNN Don Lemon
Posted by: hans | Jun 25 2009 5:26 utc | 176
Well, I just woke up and noticed the gratuitous insults by r'giap, one after another, none of them actually saying anything but relentless in their personal attacks. Well done, r'giap, for exposing yourself. 'nough said.
But the post that really cracked me up was by Debs is dead: Again I am portrayed as a capitalist tool even though even Lizard admitted on another thread that my defence of Obama was accompanied by a fierce attack on the bankers and brokers who caused the mess and a demand that they be locked up, dispossessed and that the U.S. should change its jungle laws to resemble more closely the European model, in particular that of Germany and France.
Parviz defending U.S.-style Capitalism? It's a pity that a commentator who spews insults for numerous paragraphs cannot read what I actually wrote. I accuse Debs of intellectual dishonesty.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 5:34 utc | 177
As for events in Iran, I have been rather sickened by comments, even by the Blog host, 'concluding' that the demonstrations have petered out simply because 'only a few thousand' made it successfully past the knives, spiked chains, tear gas and bullets blocking all entrances to the assigned points of assembly (in yesterday's case, the heavily ringed Parliament in Baharestan Square).
How cynical has MoA become, refusing to acknowledge the depth and breadth of the disgust with this barbaric regime? Every atrocity against Palestinians is (correctly) highlighted, but in Iran's case there is a strangely immediate 'conclusion' that it's all about class warfare and/or that it was planned by the U.S.A.. -- Very convenient excuse for denying reality.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 5:44 utc | 178
I sent b a photo showing what the protesters face on each occasion but he refused to post it. There are millions of such photos, showing regime goons on motorbikes with knives and pistols drawn, preparing to distribute the spiked chains and cattle prods in readiness for the men and women, some of them old and definitely not "Gucci-rebels".
One of the leading goons was pictured with his gun drawn, shooting at passers-by. This man is Mir-Kazemi, who just received a $ 175 million Dollar loan from the Agricultural Bank and refuses to repay any of it. Of course he's going to fight tooth and nail to kill anyone threatening to overturn his sandbox. There are thousands of Mir-Kazemi's out there killing anything that moves. You just don't get it.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 5:45 utc | 179
...so, parviz, are there any events planned today? what information are you hearing? i'm asking seriously because you may not have heard, but a certain governor from the lovely state of south carolina just announced his illicit affair, and it's really capturing the attention of our major media whores. in that horribly telling clip hans posted, it "appears" not much information is coming out.
so maybe, and this is just a suggestion, but maybe you could let us know what's happening, kind of like a reporter, and also maybe try to shift down from the cage-fighter mode you've been stuck on. thanks.
Posted by: Lizard | Jun 25 2009 5:47 utc | 180
whoa, #178 is really hardcore. or maybe surreal is a better word. i will consult cnn to see if this breaking news or not.
Posted by: Lizard | Jun 25 2009 5:51 utc | 181
8 Basijis shot dead during Tehran unrest. All life is precious
Posted by: hans | Jun 25 2009 5:52 utc | 182
I was told that Rafsanjani went to the city of Qom to collect 40 singnature from the other important Ayatollahs in Qom to change the Leader, he failed to get them. Now he needs to be removed and all the money that he has accumilated be returned to the Nation. He is finished and he knows it. His masters in the West would not want him either. See this
Posted by: hans | Jun 25 2009 6:01 utc | 183
i apologize for sounding flippant, does sound like violence continues
Posted by: Lizard | Jun 25 2009 6:04 utc | 184
The Iranian government has arrested a reporter working for Newsweek and another one working for the Washington Times.
A number of people have been arrested regarding the suicide bombing. The ministry has dismantled the groups involved, and has arrested almost all the group members. The police also captured another group, which planned to carry out a terrorist act in the city of Tabriz while one of the presidential candidates was making a speech there. Some other terrorist groups in the south of the country, especially in Ahvaz, were identified and arrested before they could carry out any acts. Anybody who embarks on espionage activity in the country will be arrested. One foreign reporter has so far been arrested and another one has been questioned and his equipment confiscated. (Mohseni-Ejei ran’s Intelligence Ministry )
Posted by: hans | Jun 25 2009 6:14 utc | 185
Sure Hans, why are you stating the obvious? Please try to contribute something new, not the well known Rafsanjani corruption that had Fortune Magzine list him as one of the top ten richest families in the world. Why don't you highlight the $ 1.6 BILLION of accounts frozen by the British and belonging to Khamenei's son, Mojtaba Khamenei, who organized the recent street killings, is informally in charge of the Baseej and who and fired Revolutionary Guards commanders who didn't meet their 'kill quota'?
This $ 1.6 BILLION in CASH is just a tiny fraction of what the 'Holy' Spiritual' Leader's family owns and controls, including $$$ billions-worth of infrastructural and housing projects in South Africa?
The entire 'Islamic' regime is nothing more than a gigantic Kleptocracy, a stinking cesspit, and EVERYBODY in Iran knows it. You guys don't have the faintest clue what's going on and you, Hans, of all people, have a nerve demanding that Mojtaba Khamenei instigate an even 'tougher crackdown'. Have you no principles at all?
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 6:39 utc | 186
From The Guardian (I can't provide the link because of local censorship, so type in some key words and you'll find the original). I'll split this post so it all gets through)
On last Friday, during his speech to the nation from Tehran University, Khamenei specifically singled out UK, calling it the most despicable nation.
At the time, I was not sure why he was so upset with UK, but in light of the following report, now it is crystal clear. Yes, indeed, British Government has frozen Mojtaba Khamenei's bank accounts (Khameni's son) totaling $ 1.6 Billion and that is why Khamenei is so angry with the UK Government.
Frankly, no reasons have been reported by the British Government for freezing the above accounts, but the very fact that Khamenei's son has accounts in his name totaling $ 1.6 Billion very clearly explains why there is so much push to maintain Ahmadinejad in power and have his son, be nominated to replace his father as the new supreme leader.
The looting of Iran continues while 10 Million people are hungry. Here is the report from Guardian UK:
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 6:44 utc | 187
UK-Iran relations get more toxic. "The British banks have frozen $1.6bn in funds belonging to Mojtaba Khamenei, son of the supreme leader," the Guardian reports. And Reuters reports that Iran is temporarily recalling its British ambassador.
The following article from Guardiam provides more info on Khamenei's son and his relationship with Ahmadinejad:
Mojtaba Khamenei: gatekeeper to Iran's supreme leader
* Julian Borger
* The Guardian, Monday 22 June 2009
Iran's supreme leader's second son, Mojtaba Khamenei, has emerged as one of the driving forces behind the government's crackdown, diplomats and observers said .
Mojtaba is an ally of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the disputed president, and was credited with winning his father's endorsement for the then Tehran mayor in the 2005 elections, leading to Ahmadinejad's shock second round victory.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 6:46 utc | 188
Mojtaba is an austere figure, generally seen as more hardline than his father and has become a gatekeeper for access to the beit-e-rahbari, the supreme leader's home, and the supreme leader himself.
According to some Iran analysts, Khamenei, 70, is manoeuvring to position his son as his successor.
Formally, the position is supposed to be awarded by the assembly of experts, an elected group of clerics led by the most powerful rival to Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, Hashemi Rafsanjani.
But the first supreme leader, Ruhollah Khomeini, had a powerful say on who his successor should be.
Khamenei has been increasingly described in the official media as the "Ali of our times", a reference to Ali, the Shia imam who passed on the position to his son Hassan.
"There has been a lot of talk lately that this is all about Mojtaba and the succession," said Ali Ansari, an Iran analyst at St Andrews University.
"He may be securing the position for the long term, and protecting it. The argument is that he is protecting his future."
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 6:46 utc | 189
Lizard, the protests continue, and today is the day of the announced General Strike. I am about to leave the house and will report the outcome when I return in a few hours' time.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 6:50 utc | 190
Sorry for all the consecutive posts, but the last 4 posts get to the essence of my people's dissatisfaction.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 6:53 utc | 191
Here is the private wealth estimates I received from insiders (and b knows I have access to such information):
Rafasanjani Family: In excess of $ 50 billion
Khamenei Family: In excess of $ 40 billion (Mojtaba started late)
Ayatollah Tabassi Family (Mashad Mafia): In excess of $ 40 billion
Nategh-e-Noori Family: In excess of $ 20 billion
and so on.
Then there are the $ 200 million per head funnelled to the Baseeji warlords who pay the 'salaries' of the goons they can whistle up at any time. (See my report above on Goon leader Mir-Kazemi who received $ 175 million from the Agricultural Bank on orders from 'higher-up').
The nation's oil/gas revenues are transferred not to the NIOC (National Iranian Oil Company) account in Tehran but to Naft Intertrade (NICO) accounts in Lausanne from where they are re-transferred to private accounts in the Cayman Islands. What is left after the grand larceny is sent back to Tehran, which is why the banks are all broke, factories are all closing for lack of funds and unemployment has soared despite $ 100 billion of oil revenues in 2008.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 8:07 utc | 193
I am disgusted that MoA has never published a single thread on the thoroughly corrupt and brutal nature of the 'religious' regime and its total control over every organ of social and political life, including but not limited to the presidential election (see Dragonfly's accurate description -- #89 -- detailing the levers controlling the voting process). All MoA does is defend this despicable regime and its methods, which is why I keep protesting that MoA has "lost its soul".
It took these elections to unbare the dark soul of the so-called 'Islamic Republic', which some of you so lightly dismiss.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 8:07 utc | 194
I just returned. Things are quiet, which doesn't mean there's an effective General Strike because government offices are closed on Thursdays anyway. Some shops are shuttered, but not enough for me to add the word 'General' to the phrase.
Karroubi has postponed the National Day of Mourning till next Thursday.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 8:13 utc | 195
State TV reports Khamenei has just asked the Government to "be tolerant of alternative views". Looks like the seizure of a small part of his son's illicit assets is having an effect.
I wonder what more the British know about the inside workings of the regime, which might explain the sonofabitch's attempt at compromise. It could also mean that each has so much dirt on the other(s) that Khamenei has had to tone down his rhetoric.
Interesting days ahead.
Dragonfly, I only just realized you're a woman. Will you marry me?
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 8:18 utc | 196
Conqueso, no comment? Still sitting on the fence? Being 'Loyal' to the most despicable regime on Earth?
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 8:20 utc | 197
Parviz @189 I guess also this would be one of your fables
Report: Protesters Thrown Off Bridge in Tehran
I also just talked to my friend in Iran and he told "Strike what Strike".
Posted by: hans | Jun 25 2009 8:46 utc | 198
Hans, you're comments are becoming tiresome. I already announced in post 195 that the General Strike didn't take place. Don't you read before posting? And you have no comments on the Grand Theft by the Khamenei Family?
All you can write is "Strike what Strike"? It doesn't bother you that the regime you protect is the world's biggest Kleptocracy?
Say something new and sensible for a change, or leave the messaging to people uncovering real news as I have done today in several posts (and directly to b via email). Just repeating what your one friend in Iran says isn't productive, even if expatriate conqueso (who also hasn't a clue how corrupt and despised the regime is) decides to defend your right to free speech. Free speech and nonsense are two different things.
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 9:49 utc | 199
And here's the CS Monitor (don't laugh, b) describing what I see on the streets every day:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0618/p06s16-wome.html
Posted by: Parviz | Jun 25 2009 10:10 utc | 200
The comments to this entry are closed.
Alex_no, I don't want to speak for anyone else, but what might be getting under most people's skin is this: yes, Parviz is in Tehran, and the rest of us are not, so he has access to first-hand info that the rest of us do not. And yes, his viewpoint is totally valid. I doubt that anyone is disputing that. It's his refusal to accept that his viewpoint is not the only viewpoint that irks.
I'm not in Tehran, but I have talked to people in Tehran; some of them agree with Parviz's assessment and some don't. I'm certainly not going to call the ones that don't agree liars just because I don't like their point of view, or tell them that they're wrong because someone else I talked to had a conflicting opinion. And that's what Parviz is doing.
As an example, Hans has an opinion from a friend in Iran. He also has an opinion from Parviz, also in Iran. From what I gathered of Parviz's post, he thinks Hans' friend's view is less valid than his because it's different. And what is the difference between those two opinions? Why should Hans believe a random poster on the internet before he believes his friend? More importantly, why should he be berated for believing his friend before believing a stranger on the internet?
Regardless of what one thinks of how right or wrong the protesters are, or how right or wrong the government is, it's the refusal to accept that there is another side to this conflict that is making people react strongly.
Posted by: conqueso (formerly -c) | Jun 24 2009 21:29 utc | 101