Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 24, 2009
Iran Lost The Propaganda War

Der Spiegel once was a somewhat lefty German weekly magazine. Recently it turned into a propaganda tool of the right. It has quite an influence, its sold circulation is over one million each week.

The increase of such quite ridiculous but effective propaganda like the above is the direct consequence of Mousavi's challenge of the state of Iran. He declared himself the winner in the election even before the vote count began. When the results were announced he alleged massive fraud without presenting any convincing evidence.

That again triggered big demonstrations of people who believed his allegations. When these non-rebellions turned into violent youth riots the state of Iran, like any other state on this planet would have done, asserted itself and suppressed them.

This again was a real gift for anti-Iran propagandists and their work will hurt Iran's image in the 'west' for a long time. When Iran's leaders are openly associated with bin-Laden in major publications Iran has lost the propaganda war.

I will not be surprised to see Mousavi punished for the obvious damage he has done to his country. But that would again only play right into the hand of the propagandists. Maybe he should be send off to some small town in the counryside where he can learn how the people living there really think. Give him a stern advice not to talk to the media and let him paint more pictures.

Comments

Great post, b, and I agree.
After his exile to the hinterland, maybe Moussavi can paint impressionistic landscapes of Beirut in the 80’s. If so, he better load up on crimson and gunmetal grey.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 16:56 utc | 1

So, we have the comparisons to Hitler, Saddam and now bin Laden, as is witnessed in the upper right hand corner. I’m surprised they didn’t sneak a mushroom cloud in there, or a beheading. Righties in the U.S. are very moved by the beheading thing. They’ll say things like “these Arabs are crazy…they behead people.” Yeah, those crazy Arabs, why can’t they use more humane tactics such as waterboarding and attaching electrodes to people’s genitals. Personally, I’d rather be beheaded then suffer from the psychological trauma of torture the rest of my life.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 17:01 utc | 2

no Iranians are subtle, and the US is really really interested … and are you sure Moussavi is saying in Farsi what he is supposed to be saying in English?
link
this is a face saver for everybody except the hooligans – and who advised protesters to have something burning in every video?
this is a huge win – an Iranian explaining how to organize effective elections to the Washington Post :-))
Juan Cole has just found out that you cannot demonstrate in New York this way without going to jail

Posted by: outsider | Jun 24 2009 17:10 utc | 3

I’ll wait to see if the bin’Laden thing sticks.
There seems to be two camps developing among the mainstream press; one is the “They’re all getting murdered so let’s go free them by murdering some more”, and the other is “They’re getting murdered, so shouldn’t we make our enemies’ enemies’ our friends?”
Though i’m not hopeful the Bush junta won’t succeed, the debate’s still out on which one will emerge victorious.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 24 2009 17:13 utc | 4

The degree to which one has to carefully filter, corroborate and analyse even ordinary ‘news'(read infotainment and various shades of propaganda-propagenda) has become rather burdensome …
Our illusory western ‘democracies’ and *ahem* ‘free press’ has become blatantly little more than a sick joke for anyone awake, with the eyes to see …
Obama and the US stands back, and leaves the ‘dirty’ work to the elites of its Vassal states (UK, France, Germany, …) re the co-ordinated public attacks on Iranians and Iran … ah, there’s that plausible deniability again …
If Iran wasn’t sitting on it’s resource wealth (accursed ?) and in a critical geostrategic location … joe public wouldn’t even know they exist …
Sadly, only more needless, innocent, human suffering can result as further variants of the ‘Great Game’ continue apace …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 24 2009 17:15 utc | 5

b-
What I find odd is that even Democracy Now! is pimping the idea of a populist uprising in Iran, as are other news outlets I’ve trusted in the past.
On the other hand, the Moon (b and many posters) seems intent on calling the whole thing a western propaganda fantasy – that Iran is totally committed to its current president and his council and that the “uprising” is more smoke than fire.
I’ve been following along on the Iran threads and the bickering is heavy, information is sketchy… the only eye witness I think we’ve had comment is Parviz, and most people appear to feel he is some kooky dis-information/CIA/Mossad type rather than a trustworthy source of information… that leaves us with what sort of information to judge what is going on? A bunch of other media that also may or may not be spewing foul feces.
I find it odd how angry everyone is.
Obama slips the government/corporate penis into our collective rectums and the post are “ho hum, empire marches on, bad empire.” Parviz says that the Iranian government is a corrupt bunch of greedy assholes and everyone jumps on him like he’d kicked Marx in the family jewels… How hard is it to believe that maybe, just maybe ALL politicians are greedy pricks, not just the ones supported by the West.
I don’t doubt western governments are working tirelessly to fund and formulate change with-in Iran as we speak… but the question becomes one of who benefits from this volatile situation? And the only people who can answer that are the Iranians themselves.
Just because the West is trying to topple the Iranian government doesn’t mean that the political reality that replaces the current reality will automatically be oppressive to the Iranians and completely beholden to Western governments…
It might very well be that the Iranian leadership realizes how badly the West wants to invade their country and all this bruhaha might well be a cloak to buy the Iranians time. How about that? Betcha didn’t think of that did ya’?
A little political intrigue to keep the West guessing and also as a way to flush-out trouble makers while the West slowly dies from the financial collapse that is bleeding it to death. How long would Iran have to wait before the West is forced into retreat? How many wars can our empire fight?
Before all this is said and done I bet the Iranians are laughing at the rest of us… probably for another 2000 or so years after we’re a pimple on history’s ass.

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 17:31 utc | 6

One item of interest that I came across yesterday. Ahmadinejad is often painted as being anti-democratic but sometimes he is more democratic than the reformers. Up until 2007, the voting age in Iran was 15. Then the Iranian Parliament decided to increase it to 18. Since then Ahmadinejad has been trying to reduce it back to 15 without success. While some may argue that 15-year-olds are too young vote, I would point out that at that age they can get married, pay taxes and die for their country so why shouldn’t they have the vote! What happened to “no taxation without representation”?

Posted by: blowback | Jun 24 2009 17:34 utc | 7

DavidS, I just want to say that your characterization of MOA posters doesn’t match my sentiments, at all, and I’m scratching my head trying to think of a single poster to whom it applies, including b.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 17:45 utc | 8

Just because the West is trying to topple the Iranian government doesn’t mean that the political reality that replaces the current reality will automatically be oppressive to the Iranians and completely beholden to Western governments…
how illuminating david

Posted by: annie | Jun 24 2009 17:47 utc | 9

“On what meat has this our Caesar fed?”
Our idols are knocked down and we reflect upon whether we are too harsh on them. But in tragic literature it is the extension of a flaw that leads to a multiplicity of mistakes. This is probably the path along which a democracy descends into a cosmetic democracy, until at last it reaches the point where it corrupts its own language and gives up accountability, misappropriates its own mythology, and relies on the monopoly of violence.
The red-baiting demagogue, Sen. Joe McCarthy, used the quotation from Julius Caesar to further his scheme of intimidation; but Edward R. Murrow threw the words back at him; and we must wonder if the public truly heeds Murrow’s warning, that “A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves.”
It is probably irresponsible and juvenile to incite Iranian youth to openly challenge the monopoly of violence, represented by the IRGC and the Baseej. And we who are debating the disputes between the parties in Iran have not fully understood the political dynamics that are at the bottom of it. This has gotten down to a squabble about whose narrative is the most believable, with respect to election fraud. I remind those who so confidently disparage any notion of fraud that they have not disproved it; and if you consider how long it took for the hard proof of fraud to filter into American consciousness after the Election 2000 debacle, and factor in things like the media blackout of Inauguration Day protest; and given the colossal domestic media barrier to reports from Europe, that Greg Palast called “an electronic Berlin Wall”, –you may appreciate that such confidence that there is no fraud,–is at this point premature.
I think it is important to consider Robert Fisk’s cautionary words:

This chorus to God emanated from the rooftops of Kandahar every night after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 – I heard it myself in Kandahar and I heard it last week over the rooftops of Tehran – but it no more stopped the Russians in their tracks than it is going to stop the Basiji or Revolutionary Guards. Symbols are not enough.
Yesterday, the Revolutionary Guards – as unelected as they are unrepresentative of today’s massed youth of Iran – uttered their disgraceful threat to deal with “rioters” in “a revolutionary way”.
Everyone in Iran, even those too young to remember the 1988 slaughter of the regime’s opponents – when tens of thousands were hanged like thrushes on mass gallows – knows what this means.
Unleashing a rabble of armed government forces on to the streets and claiming that all whom they shoot are “terrorists” is an almost copy-cat perfect version of the Israeli army’s public reaction to the Palestinian intifada. If stone-throwing demonstrators are shot dead, then it is their own fault, they are breaking the law and they are working for foreign powers.

There is no call for being disrespectful of reasoned arguments against the charges of fraud; on the other hand, the air of confidence and the crowing of some who adopt this point of view, is annoying, and doesn’t help to convince anyone.

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 24 2009 17:54 utc | 10

All we have to do is topple the Iranian government and it will be replaced by a regime bringing peace, prosperity, democracy and stability: just look what happened in Iraq.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jun 24 2009 17:55 utc | 11

Yeah, ralphieboy, maybe the Iranians will be more grateful and there will be the roses the Iraqis never furnished.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 17:58 utc | 12

b, I really don’t understand your logic here.
If, say, Al Gore hadn’t accepted the 2000 US election results and instead had organized peaceful protests in D.C. and other major cities, and demanded transparency and legitimate results
and if China or Russia published a political magazine with a front page of Bush and Hitler and some evil Christian priest, and supported Gore’s claims of illegitimacy
and other eastern newspapers were condemning Washington of election fraud, etc. would you say that it was Gore’s fault, and that he damaged his country?
Why should Mousavi be held responsible for an idiotic bought-out German publication? Germans and other Europeans are more responsible for buying it and believing whatever it says.
I understand that Iran’s situation is much more precarious, and that this implies caution from all sides. However, I haven’t seen enough caution from the Iranian government, only threats, lack of transparency, and widespread violence as a reaction to the protests. You may find this an appropriate response… I sure wouldn’t like my government to hold such disputable elections, cut-off internet and cell services right after, and bring an army of thugs to punish and kill whoever has the balls to protest.

Posted by: St | Jun 24 2009 18:01 utc | 13

Hey, annie —
you’ve got dick.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 24 2009 18:02 utc | 14

Don’t Forget Mousavi’s Bloody Past: Robert Baer

Posted by: hans | Jun 24 2009 18:03 utc | 15

St @13 and bring an army of thugs to punish and kill whoever has the balls to protest.. Try rioting , burning in your own country and see what will happen.

Posted by: hans | Jun 24 2009 18:06 utc | 16

hans, I’m from Greece, and I know what happens. A kid got killed by accident last Fall and all hell broke loose. Maybe you remember too…
and there were no stolen or disputed elections to begin with. Just a corrupt government and business as usual.

Posted by: St | Jun 24 2009 18:10 utc | 17

hans, if Liddy and North can be forgiven, so too can Moussavi. So what if he was a brutal murderer in his past life. This is Amurica (and hopefully Iran will be Amurica soon, or a vassal to it), and if you can make money, and make me money, well then you can have all the redemption you want.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 18:11 utc | 18

Following MoA this past week has been — stunning, appalling, gobsmacking astonishment. What a train wreck!
Bernhard started right out on the topic of the Iran election, grinding his anti-Amerisraeli conspiracy axe, and has invited and encouraged a new crew of hatchet men to make damn sure nobody moves the discussion off either the vote count or the exploration of just how America is pulling off yet another (!) color revolution.
When the election count doesn’t matter — it’s like Paris Hilton writing a Haiku. When anything and everything America can do to destabilize Iran is puny compared to what Iranians are doing for themselves. That country is imploding because of 30 years of hardliner repression. America’s role in the shakeup is as vital as the bagpipe section at a blues festival.
The irony of b and friends so harshly repressing any dissenting information or opinion even as the hardliners in Iran repress their citizenry is utterly lost on this crew. They’re too busy not listening to listen to themselves, of all people.
Even Billmon’s admonishment to all those here who will not listen to anything that contradicts their narrow ideology gets no consideration or respect — despite Billmon’s extremely long and valued history of contributions to discussions at MoA, now it’s fuck him” and “he’s just another Muggeridge” as if either remark passes muster for an adult response.
This is how precocious teens talk of others outside their clique, in order to build themselves up to one another. It’s a defense of the fragile and shallow.
What we have here is a cult of vicious harpies out to prove themselves right no matter the response or the evidence. It is a terribly negative energy, and yet it has not been corrected or disowned by b. He encourages it, showing that this is how he wants the blog. These are his true colors.
Nothing constructive can come of this kind of meanness and tearing down of others. This crew has only begun its spiral down into irrelevant vituperation, with no dissenters. All they will accomplish is keeping their ideological blinders on, and fending off anything they don’t agree with ahead of time. When no one will bother to correct them any longer, they will start correcting one another.
One of the key lessons this life has taught me is to walk away from people when they get vicious. There’s nothing good whatsoever can come of mean. As soon as that comes out of people, it’s time to mosey down the road. There’s another sunrise, another town, another place to hang your hat, even another home.
I can’t hang my hat here any more. As soon as I hit Post on this note, I’m going to delete MoA from my computers. No more connections from this IP address, ever.
No doubt I will be roundly cursed and dismissed, just like anyone else who points out who you are here, and what you are doing.
Go right ahead, say whatever your mean inspires you to. Antifa will never hear it; he’ll never know.

Posted by: Antifa | Jun 24 2009 18:20 utc | 19

A well informed person is he who can articulate the media’s view of reality. There is no shortage of well informed people in the West.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Jun 24 2009 18:35 utc | 20

DavidS,
From what I gather, some of Democracy Now!’s coverage of the Middle East is based upon Juan Cole’s analysis of this region. And since he was one of the first to come out and strongly say that Iran’s election was rigged in Ahmadinejad’s favor, this may explain why Democracy Now! went along with the narrative about a grassroots uprising taking place in cities throughout Iran.

Posted by: Cynthia | Jun 24 2009 18:38 utc | 21

“cult of vicious harpies”?

Posted by: b real | Jun 24 2009 18:38 utc | 22

I’ll see your “cult of vicious harpies” and raise you to “whining twit flouncing off”.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Jun 24 2009 18:52 utc | 23

quite odd really. antifa followed the line of the opposition immediately, without pause & then demanded patience. tho that was never elaborated on in any detail – that was his position. since then, the day of the first thread at least half & often more of any thread on iran has been written by posters supportive of the opposition in one way or another
so i do not ‘see’ b’s hidden agenda or mine if it comes to that. i find that charfe ludicrous when i pose my own perceptions so transparently – admittedly to the point of mania – but how is one supposed to react to fantasies about hamas & hezbollah militias & the many other fictions that have passed themselves off as fact
no from antifa’s point of view we have to follow the tidal wave of ‘support’ fro the opposition in the west – along with the other butchers
i have made my own perception of bullmon clear on another thread – but call him similar to malcolm muggeridge is for me a reasonable assertion & an accurate one if you know how so called leftists turned against their ‘god’. either antifa does not know muggeridge – or he misunderstands the quite open inference. billmon does a driveby shooting & you feel it requires us to bend to our knees or respond in ‘higher tones’
the idea that b uses hatchet men willingly or unwillingly is offenseive in the extreme – both to b & to the individuals concerned. & those individuals are so different in perspectives – to try to cohese them into a homogeneous group is a rhetorical exercise which possesses the weight of a feather. i’d like to think we all think differently & i believe we do. the evidence asserts that. even on topics as heated as this
on the other hand i am not clear what antifa’s perception is – given his posts in the first few days – support without question – i don’t know
antifa speaks of viicious harpies but to state without equivocation – “that these are his true colour’ is about as vituperative as you can get – implying that for the five years of intense devotion b has somehow waited for this historical moment to reveal that he is what exactly – an iranian agent, a political islamist – whatever i don’t understand what the intention was to say that & as a regural here i find it adeeply offensive attack on b.
those who accuse those who want to question this historical moment should look at their own humanity
in the end i find this particular post by antifa as completely infantile – that he will want to create the kind of melodramas that are habitual on dkos – is for me, quite sad
on my perception of the situation in iran – it has changed & that is revealed in the post here but i will not pull back from my suspicions that this is an interelite war where the people’s blood is just another tool used by those elites & their allies

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 18:53 utc | 24

Good riddance.
But hell, i think our pseudo-primadonna was looking for that.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 24 2009 18:55 utc | 25

Right on, Antifa!
I have been checking out Moon of Alabama because it shines light on places that are otherwise not well lit. I suspect this is true of many others as well. Now it sheds darkness.

Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 24 2009 18:59 utc | 26

From the most updated version of Mebane‘s report (which you quoted before he had the full information and was on the fence with respect to fraud and then stopped quoting once he obtained the ballot box information which pointed to significant fraud):

The patterns in Figure 1 strongly suggest there was ballot box stuffing. The average of the
second digits in the vote counts for Karoubi and Rezaei fall significantly below the expected
mean value for invalid vote proportions less than about 0.03. The average of the second digits
in Ahmadinejad’s vote counts fall significantly above the expected mean value for invalid vote
proportions less than about 0.003. Mousavi’s vote counts have second digits significantly
greater than the expected mean value for invalid proportions ranging between about 0.02
and 0.025. Outside of these intervals, all the candidates’ vote counts have second digits that
do not differ significantly from the mean value according to Benford’s Law. Considering that
overall Ahmadinejad’s vote counts have second digits that differ very significantly from the
Benford’s Law expectations, the small range of departures for Ahmadinejad’s votes indicates
that the ballot boxes that have very few invalid ballots have great influence on the overall
results. The simplest interpretation is that in many ballot boxes the votes for Karoubi and
Rezaei were thrown out while in many others extra votes were added for Ahmadinejad.

From the honorable b:

…the state of Iran, like any other state on this planet would have done, asserted itself and suppressed them.
This again was a real gift for anti-Iran propagandists…

The only anti-Iran propagandist here is you.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 24 2009 19:09 utc | 27

giap says, “this is an interelite war where the people’s blood is just another tool used by those elites & their allies.” That seems to be a true statement as far as it goes. That is always true, universally applicable.
But it leaves out that the people in the streets are now players as well. That is what is getting short shrift. It’s harder to see, harder to understand, lacking a single coherent voice. Thus we depend on the straight media for information.
But it is already impacting the United States. We praise Neda but Obama wants to suppress the torture pictures? Hundreds of thousands take to the streets in Teheran, but such demonstrations would be crushed here in the U.S.? My opinion is that the protestors are fighting for MY freedom. Objectively.
Sez Pat Lang: “the action of the Iranian people has made it virtually impossible for the war party here and in Israel to succede in dragging us into another one of their adventures.” Pat Lang is no proletarian hero, to be sure, and the point is perhaps debatable. But it might be a debate worth having. I happen to concur with Lang. The victims of a U.S.-Israeli operation now have faces.

Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 24 2009 19:11 utc | 28

b
I find it quite disingenuous of you to characterize the situation as Mousavi has not been able to present convincing evidence for fraud. The best you can do is to say “We do not know”. There are two claims here. One by Mousavi (election fraud), one by the government (no election fraud). I don’t see the government of Mr. Ahmadinejad presenting evidence that there was no fraud.
Why do you give the government the benefit of the doubt? The previous behavior of the government — lying through its teeth in many instances about things big and small, too numerous to even bother to count — and the fact that the election watchdog was hellbent on having the incumbent win the election should make any impartial observer to set the prior probability of fraud at least equal to the prior probability of an honest election, if not far higher. For the statistically minded, if F is the fraud event and ~F is the no-fraud event, we should set Pr(F) = Pr(~F) before the election if we are to be impartial, in recognition that the behavior of the government and the institutional setting of the election does not really inspire confidence in us to believe that the election is more likely to be honest rather than fraudulent. They way you characterize the situation is as if we have a (a) democratic government structure with (b) proper checks and balances that would guarantee a (c) fair and impartial election administration, monitoring and adjudication.
Where is your evidence for (a), (b) and (c)?

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 19:24 utc | 29

Yes, faces that must be saved from Tyranny by the great liberator, and if those faces must be crushed by the liberator to save them, then so be it.
Now, more than ever, the sadistic, dictatorial annihilationists must be stopped. They are not only developing nuclear bombs to drop on the children of Israel and the West, but they are killingthteir own people just as Saddam gassed the Kurds and tortured dissidents.
Bomb Iran, Bomb Iran…..and save the Protesters. Do it for the sake and memory of that poor dear soul, Neda. You’ve seen her picture, haven’t you? Here’s a copy in case you haven’t. Don’t let those dirty, turbin-wearing Ayatollahs do to your children what they did to Neda. Bomb them now and put a stop to their madness. The people of Iran will thank us when it’s over…even though it will never be over once we start. They will throw roses at our feet for blowing up their children from 30,000 feet. We will be Liberators once again. We are grand. We are great. We must Liberate the world. Long live Liberation and the Great Liberator.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 19:34 utc | 30

antifa’s #19 exhibits such a narrow, subjective “analysis” of what has transpired at moa over the past week that it beggars skepticism itself. are these tactics out of some psyops or counter-propaganda manual? strange exit, at any rate. his observations have usually offered much.

Posted by: b real | Jun 24 2009 19:39 utc | 31

for what it’s worth, antifa, your absence will be missed by many. i’ve always appreciated your contributions, but this divisive situation has exposed fissures i never thought possible here, and your condemnation of MoA regulars makes me really sad. there has been meanness on all sides, surely you can’t deny that, but if you’re disillusionment is enough to cause you to walk away for good, that’s obviously your choice.
the last two weeks here have been the most polarizing i have ever seen, and it’s created a besieged atmosphere, and i think folks have responded, sometimes harshly, because of this antagonistic atmosphere.
and the fact you assume, antifa, that you will be cursed and/or dismissed is really disheartening.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 19:40 utc | 32

where is the general strike ?
there are no strikes of any form happening to offer solidarity
the possibilities of a general strike was just one more fiction
what this movement can do is what afro american fought for – civil rights – iran is strong enough to b able to accept a polity that allows for more openness
but i also understand that the meance against her is real, that there are amongst the elites of the empire – a desire to reduce iran to what has happened in iraq. they have exhibited that clearly at every moment – with every goon of the empire wanting to destroy her & not a few neighbours in the middle east also ready. so i understand her security situation – but i do not see the demonstrators as any real threat but provocateurs amonst them working for foreign agencies ought to be liquidated. point
if this is some sense the birth of a civil right movement, an internal civil rights movement – with no beneficiaries amongst the elite of either iran or empire then it can be seen as just one more process that iran has gone though & will inevitably pass through
however – if it is any way an articulation of foreign intervention in iranian affairs then it ought to be dealt with

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 19:42 utc | 33

Obamageddon,
Those faces are a major factor restraining imperial intervention.
Oddly, you are picking a fight with your potential allies. Those raising high the face of Neda are in opposition to U.S.-Israeli intervention, as you would know if you were paying attention to anything other than your own echo chamber. While you and, for instance, Juan Cole may completely diverge on what is actually happening in Iran, you are both adamantly opposed to U.S.-Israeli military intervention. I would also note that the demonstrators are most certainly not calling for U.S.-Israeli intervention. There is a united front that could be built here if you were less invested in the correctness of your abstract analysis.

Posted by: jeffroby | Jun 24 2009 19:45 utc | 34

rememberinggiap has to be mostly right about this being an “inter-elite” contest for power in Iran, irrespective of whether there was fraud in the election. We do know the history of the relationships between Mousavi, Rafsinjani, Khoumeni, Khameni, the revolutionary guards, and the wresting of much of the petro resource away from the old elites in favor of the IRGC and Khameni’s clique (aided by Akmadinijad).
If all politics is about money, and I believe it is, then following the money in this dustup gives good support to rememberinggiap’s opinion. In politics, money is what power is for. b’s opinions on this blog have been well countered by many contributors, and I would remind everyone that he remains ready to be convinced of either side’s postion if only someone would come up with convincing evidence and not just a good storyline. That b is pushing the issue from an extremely skeptical viewpoint is not a fault, particularly in the face of the onslaught of US and European so-called mainstream “opinion”. I watched Charlie Rose a few nights ago host 4 talking heads (Ignatius, Kagan, Sanger, and someone else) not one of whom uttered one word of anything but bullshit propaganda regarding the Iranian “crisis”. Nonsense is everywhere, not just in Der Spiegel.

Posted by: ds | Jun 24 2009 19:46 utc | 35

& i do not find it at all strange – that all the ’emerging’ countries, that are not puppets of empire, have given their support to iran

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 19:48 utc | 36

The driveby by billmon is not of much consequence; but losing Antifa is a heartbreaking loss. We have lost a credible source of information, and a poetry and lucidity from which we have absorbed much that is good. To cry “good riddance” after him is nothing short of petty and thoughtless. Perhaps he is offended because he is especially close to the issue we have been discussing. I hope we will hear from him later. I hope his decision is not final, as he said.
The bickering became too personal here at times; but we who have gotten to know each other sometimes wrangle with one another and challenge; but there is an affection too; sometimes we shout but we don’t (exception slothrop) go at it willy-nilly, hammer and tongs.
But there have been some real rough patches over these Iranian threads.
Antifa had the initial reaction that the military was the source of this coup; he called what has happened a coup. And my impression is that r’giap can be right that this is an inter-regime struggle; and it can also be a coup, whether hatched by the military or not, as Antifa said.
Some charges have been made that have yet to be resolved. One is whether, as has been maintained, the IRGC and its allies had physical custody of the ballot boxes. This custody if true casts some suspicion. The military faction was quick to move goons and un-uniformed goons into place. Also quick was the squelching of communication by authorities. Mousavi has been criticized for his premature announcement, which too is suspicious, but might be interpreted as defensive, if fraud was in the air. But alarmingly the repression, and implied threat of eliminationist violence by Revolutionary Guards, also has come with terrifying quickness.
A grieving family is charged $3000 for a bullet fee. None of the dead are permitted a funeral in Tehran. And b is saying that maybe now Mousavi should take the opportunity to get some rest in a quiet place in the country. Well, he’ll need some rest, after his campaign strategist and his children have been arrested. Let’s wish him peace and sweet dreams.

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 24 2009 19:48 utc | 37

Will Iran be President Obama’s Iraq?

While the protests are subsiding, days of round-the-clock, ill-informed commentary in the United States have helped to “sell” several dangerously misleading myths about Iranian politics. Left unchallenged, these myths will inexorably drive America’s Iran policy toward “regime change” — just as unchallenged myths about Saddam Hussein’s pursuit of nuclear weapons and ties to Al Qaeda paved the way for America’s invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Posted by: b | Jun 24 2009 19:52 utc | 38

@b real
IMHO, Yes. So is the obsessively sustained, co-ordinated, rat-a-tat-tat style, cross-supportive, co-defendant, aggressive-dissmissive-offensive postings of the recent ‘usual suspects’ … they also tend to post in serial batches (different IDs) … hm, I wonder if there’s a general pattern re a particular timezone and-or duty hours …
As you mentioned in another post, to paraphrase, is this how it will be, bombarded with it until one is gasping for air … alas, t’would seem so …
Khodafez, Antifa

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 24 2009 19:54 utc | 39

hans @ 15
You may be excused for believing Bob Baer and not having the basic knowledge to evaluate his claims, but where is your critical mind?
I received an e-mail from a Lebanese who was present at the creation of the country’s Iranian-backed, Shi’ite militia Hizballah in 1982 and on familiar terms with its most radical and violent members. He wrote: “Are you people crazy backing Mousavi, a patron of Hizballah’s terrorist wing?”
So here goes the story: A man trusted enough to be present when Hezbollah was created and who knows its most “radical members” emails Bob Baer to admonish him, since Mousavi is “a patron of Hizballah’s terrorist wing”. Poor Mousavi, he is called a CIA stooge by the likes of Annie and a terrorist patron by mysterious Lebanese. But I am digressing.
Questions:
1. How many people do you guess were present at the creation of Hezbollah?
2. How many of those would be on friendly terms with their supposed nemesis Bob Baer?
3. Isn’t he risking being hunted down by the Hezbollah security, if he is so publicly shown to be chummy with Bob Baer?
4. Wouldn’t it be far more reasonable to assume that this guy if he exists at all, operates with the full knowledge of the Hezbollah that would not mind smearing Mousavi?
5. If the person is already not in Lebanon or not on friendly terms with the current leadership of the Hezbollah — say a member of some splinter group led by Sheikh Tofeili — wouldn’t he want to smear Mousavi only to see Iran weakened since he knows that Iran would gain the upper hand in regional affairs by his election?
The Lebanese said Mughniyah had told him over and over that he, Mughniyah, got along well with Mousavi and trusted him completely.
Confessions of Imad Mughniyah, huh? The man who had layers after layers of physical security would confide his assessment of top Iranian decision makers he deals with with a buddy of his? Is this Hollywood? Dark room, whiskey, lots of smoke and buddy soul searching?
When Mousavi was Prime Minister, he oversaw an office that ran operatives abroad, from Lebanon to Kuwait to Iraq.
This is pure fabrication plain and simple. There was no such office at overseen by Mousavi. The guy cannot even remember the organizational chart of his 20-year adversaries. No wonder the US IC is in deep trouble.
As a reward, Mousavi gave him the Interior Ministry, where Mohtashemi-pur went on to crack down on what was left of democracy in Iran.
This is opposite what happened. Mohtashami-pur is the only Interior Minister in Iran that actively pursued the policy of allowing some opposition, such as the Liberty Movement of Iran (LMI) [Nehzat-e Azadi-e Iran] to operate legally as political parties in the country. One of the points of contention between his MOI and the GC in the 80s was that the MOI would not disqualify members of the LMI who ran for parliamentary elections while the GC wanted them all disqualified.

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 19:59 utc | 40

jeffroby says: There is a united front that could be built here if you were less invested in the correctness of your abstract analysis.
i think that is an interesting line of thought, one worthy of exploration. at some point US citizens will have to grow a pair to stand up to the oppression they face, and will continue to face, domestically.
the cynicism being expressed over the legitimacy of iranian dissent, and the reluctance to grant the protesters their own agency and collective power to control the future trajectory of their country, may indeed threaten to poison the well water, and we all suffer.
ultimately i’m a knee-jerk against corporate media coercion, and that, more than anything, has fueled my skepticism, which may indeed have caused a certain degree of blindness.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 20:11 utc | 41

Well, well, another lightweight comment from Cynical Annie in reponse to David’s highly intelligent comment:
David: “Just because the West is trying to topple the Iranian government doesn’t mean that the political reality that replaces the current reality will automatically be oppressive to the Iranians and completely beholden to Western governments…”
Annie: “how illuminating david”
Wow, Annie, that was really helpful, inspiring, even illuminating. David says Iran is not doomed to a narrow choice of either foreign domination or domestic repression ad aeternam, and cynically disagree in proud Leftist style. I feel sorry for such a pessimistic individual who has given up all hope of progress and improvement. You must be a really happy person in your skin.
David, thanks as always for pointing out that life is not just black or white.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:14 utc | 42

St (13), thanks. Great post.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:16 utc | 43

Annie-
One word response, “Cuba”
Oops that’s four (or five counting “annie”)… and now these words – so a one word response with several words as minor supporting cast members.

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 20:16 utc | 44

Having been away for a while, this is all quite bizarre. I have no idea what Antifa is talking about. All through this election debacle b and other MoA “regulars” have maintained what I see as an ongoing objective continuity weighted primarily on concrete present and historical evidence, or lack thereof. The general gist of argument here have proven accurate more often than not, on many similar such political crises as in Iraq, Lebanon, Gaza, Georgia, etc.
It’s ridiculous to think the elections in Iran, and its aftermath have nothing to do with the United States. The latter being the sole world hegemony presently, with a 50 year history of funny business, now occupying her two adjacent neighbors, being allied with a country that issues weekly threats to bomb its civilian infrastructure, and itself having a well known internal multi million dollar psy-ops regime change agenda. But then hey, whats any of that have to do with the spontaneous flowering of an independent secular color revolution, which incidently, only happens to be fully underwritten by the other, brand x and formerly demonized revolutionary mafia clergy. But anyway, theres simply no way to understand anything that happens in todays Iran, without taking into consideration the past and present influence of the U.S. And in many respects the U.S. has been it’s own worst enemy in blocking any natural proclivity towards the evolution of a modernist secular democracy in that country.
What I don’t get is, the outrage expressed by those often most outspoken about the foibles and sins of empire, suddenly get cold feet about this one and magically see it disconnected and an isolated from the far reaching effects of neo – con – neo – capitalism championed by the same pin heads they otherwise appear to despise. Antifa for instance, was first in line to condemn the Obama presidency before it was even in office, as just another cynical tool of big money, but with the Iranian election, arguably of massively less substance and consequence – the world seems to be coming to an end.
I don’t get it?

Posted by: anna missed | Jun 24 2009 20:17 utc | 45

Yep, a little less wheat, but a helluva lot more chafe to wade through … though makes the sorted wheat all that more valuable …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 24 2009 20:18 utc | 46

You can’t prove a negative.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 24 2009 20:20 utc | 47

Just because the West is trying to topple the Iranian government doesn’t mean that the political reality that replaces the current reality will automatically be oppressive to the Iranians and completely beholden to Western governments…
You have to be naive to think the U.S, and Israel won’t swoop in to fill that power vacuum and turn Iran into a living hell. The Iranian people would never eccept it, just as the Iraqies won’t, but that’s no matter to empire. Empire will just turn brother agaisnt brother until Iran exists no more.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 20:20 utc | 48

Antifa, that was cogent. I sensed from the very first second I read the first of many pro-Ahmadinejad threads that there was something really foul going on here.
Anyone even daring to suggest massive fraud (in the ‘angelic’ Islamic Republic of all places!?!) has been shouted down relentlessly.
This is a forum for embittered Leftists who will support the Devil himself it will help their cause. They have turned into a caricature of the freedom fighter who, after gaining power, becomes worse than the despot he overthrew.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:21 utc | 49

There is one thing that I’d been paying attention to: how this is playing out in non-western, but undoubtedly democratic countries like Japan and India…and the answer seems to be “not much.”
It’s not like the Iranian conservatives had many fans in the West anyways–so no amount of PR effort will have shown them in particularly positive light. With the “right audiences,” it’s not obvious that the Iranian conservatives necessarily “lost.” Input from elsewhere in the world would be much appreciated also.

Posted by: kao_hsien_chih | Jun 24 2009 20:23 utc | 50

r’giap (24), haven’t you heard of “lies, damned lies and statistics”? You wrote:
“since then, the day of the first thread at least half & often more of any thread on iran has been written by posters supportive of the opposition in one way or another”.
The “half and often more” that you refer to were written by one person. If I hadn’t contributed there wouldn’t have been much of an alternative view, and certainly not from an eye witness.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:25 utc | 51

Cuba? Using that analogy, the Protesters are likened to the Elitist Cuban refugees who now occupy Miami and South Florida after pleading with Castro to keep there riches.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 20:25 utc | 52

parviz, i wrote a poem for you. i hope you enjoy it.
lay siege to our forum
shoot down the moon
with certain supremacy
shout down the lunacy
of questioning peeps
who tweet from the streets
and flutter through cyberspace
in a virtual war
and when coercion won’t work
flame skeptics with scorn

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 20:27 utc | 53

Jeffroby:
“The victims of a U.S.-Israeli operation now have faces.”
Superb. The protesters just took the rug out from under the Neocon-Zionist feet.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:27 utc | 54

Me, I go along with Antifa to a fair degree, and I’ve withdrawn from the debate, though I know Iran quite well.
Nevertheless, I restate the attitude one should take, as seems to me. This is an internal Iranian conflict; there is right on both sides, and one should not think of it in terms of US or western influence, as US efforts to undermine the Iranian regime have had very little effect.
The real conflict appears to be taking place behind the scenes, possibly between the Rafsanjani party and the Khamenei party. Will Khamenei be toppled? There’s a chance, but I don’t think the result is known yet.
In public, there’s a popular revolt against Ahmedinejad and the results of the election, whether or not it was rigged. It is quite evident from Parviz’s contributions that the revolt has been strong, and it has made its mark. Whether it is limited to the internet-savvy upper class is not known, as far as I understand. Whether it regains pace or not, will show how strongly it is supported. We have to wait and see; there’s not much information percolating out of the provinces. Could be as b says “It’s over”; could be not.
Even if “It’s over”, a marker has been placed, and one can’t go back. Khamenei has been weakened. Will the next round be revolutionary, or infiltration of the religious elite by the upper classes?
To explain, Iran has a history of domination by its nationalist aristocracy. This started with the Sasanian dynasty (226-651 AD). This dynasty was a family of landowners from Fars (round Shiraz), and made a big thing of Iranian nationalism. After the arrival of Islam, the aristocrats made a deal with Islam to maintain power with an Islamic colouring. Although subsequently many dynasts were alien, Turkish or Mongol, the same principle survived. The sultan might be alien, but real power remained the same.
The problem today is that the historical elite is excluded from power. The vilayat-i faqih (government of the religious) is too extreme, and makes insufficient concessions to Iranian nationalism, which is very powerful. I would prefer, in their interest, that they reach a deal, a nationalist government with an Islamic colouring. It’s not impossible.

Posted by: Alex_no | Jun 24 2009 20:35 utc | 55

parviz
will you stop your endless fantasies; i’m possibly the only communist here. perhaps the last one. i think you might find that many manyt people here hold completely independant views & any inference that there is a cabal or a hatchet crew – is as laughable as it is politically perverse
this has been the strategy in the past to homogenise the people who write here – ir simply can’t be done – it is in fact a patent absurdity – whether it comes from you or the more seasoned antifa
& b is such a dictator – like ahadinejad – that over half of all threads have posts by you, amir, dragonfly etc etc& one which frontpages your post – funny thing for an autocratic editor to do
no, even at that rhetorical level – it is just another fiction
like your fictional hezbollah & hamas militias, like your general strike that was going to drown iran on tuesday
these fictions not only demean your argument but because they are so systematic – they make every piece of ‘information’ you bring here – of very doubtful provenance

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 20:36 utc | 56

“The victims of a U.S.-Israeli operation now have faces.”
I agree. It reminds me of the Greek-Turkish situation a decade ago and how all the threats and mini-conflicts suddenly died out after a couple of earthquakes with enough victims shook both sides of the Aegean. The propaganda that the Turks (resp. the Greeks) were evil and had to be dealt with militarily was not sticking anymore.

Posted by: St | Jun 24 2009 20:36 utc | 57

Dragonfly:
“Why do you give the government the benefit of the doubt?”
This gets to the heart of the matter. If I didn’t know better I would think MoA is run by the Iranian Interior Ministry. The fact that I’m still alive (because b has all my details) proves it isn’t. But that’s the ONLY fact that proves it isn’t. We have had “there was definitely no fraud” stuffed down our faces from Day One.
Arnold, in particular, is beginning to annoy me with a constant demand that conscientious ballot workers provide ‘evidence’ at risk of death. He thinks this is Switzerland. If Genghis Khan held a referendum do you think anyone would dare complain about the result?

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:37 utc | 58

Even b mocked the ‘few thousand present’ in Enghelab Square last Saturday (when Neda Soltan was murdered in cold blood) as a sign that the protesters had lost interest, even though I explained at length that 200 square miles of Tehran were under siege by half a million guards/police/thugs, and that people were getting beaten up ON THE WAY to Enghelab Square. A lot happened off camera. I explained in minute detail how difficult it was for anyone to get through. Those 3000 brave souls were a tiny fraction of the 3 million (according to the City Mayor Qalibaf) who marched two days earlier.
The prejudice on this Blog is deafening.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:37 utc | 59

No major irregularities in Iran’s election
Now I believe the time has come to severly crack down on the Gucci protestors. I was in Iran 2 years ago on a technical semminar and I just talked to a very good friend of mine who told me that the rest of the population are beginning to get agitated.
They were willing to give the protestors the benefit of doubt but it has reached the point of no return. The street has been quite only because the majority believe in Iran but I am told that by Saturday things will definately move if the protesting does not die down.
All I can say is good on you the hidden majority. Do not accept bulling by a select few.

Posted by: hans | Jun 24 2009 20:37 utc | 60

Obamageddon@52
WTF?
Do you have any knowledge of history? Here is a nice little piece of it for you to try digesting Wiki, “Castro probably received money for his revolution from the CIA sometime between 1956 and 1958”
The Iranians are a far older culture than Cuba, nothing there would surprise me, but to think that they would automatically become pawns for the west doesn’t give the Iranian people the sort of credit that their history would suggest. On this point I might be wrong, but I have a feeling they are probably more cynical and suspicious of any “leaders” motives.
But on the later part I’m doing what we’re all doing… buying a lottery ticket that will allow the right guessers to say, “I told you so!) 🙂

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 20:38 utc | 61

Lizard
No one is deafer than those who pretend to be deaf. [English]
Silence is the answer to the imbecile. [Persian]
Can we come up with a 21st century maxim? Something like silence is the proper answer to the imbecile who pretend to be deaf? Any ideas?

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 20:39 utc | 62

“where is the general strike ?”
More typically vacuous cynicism. Why wasn’t there ever a general strike in the Soviet Union? Oh, according to you, because the regime was so popular …

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:39 utc | 63

@ 55 no it’s not impossible – but i imagine now is not the best moment to propose it – & i feel that this movement (if it does not make either overt or covert alliances with the west) will transform into a legitimate civil rights group

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 20:42 utc | 64

Hans 60
You crack me up. Keep up the good work. The thief has claimed there was no robbery and that is credible. This place is beginning to resemble an ideological a loony bin devoid of a shred of reality. Amazing!

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 20:44 utc | 66

no 50 kao_hsien_chih
India concentrates on the heart of the matter:
http://in.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idINLN19720020090623

Posted by: outsider | Jun 24 2009 20:48 utc | 67

David, yes, I’ve read that story of Castro possibly being backed by the CIA, but it still doesn’t change my point about your analogy. Using the logic of your analogy, Castro, regardless of who funded he and Che, had the backing of the majority of the people (85%), whereas, the Elitists were quite wary of him but went along in order to see what they could get out of it. Castro, soon enough, let them know that as part of the new socialist system, their former socio-economic status would no longer apply. That’s the side the U.S. ultimately held favor with when it was all said and done and now we have the former Cuba in Miami, hence Little Havana. Castro fooled the CIA, and good on him for doing it. The big bully corporations didn’t like the new termns he was offering so they packed up and left and the campaign to make Cuba a pariah was on. If only Iran could have a revolution like Cuba’s…..that’s something I could get behind and support, but I’ll bet you Parviz would be in direct opposition.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 20:48 utc | 68

parviz says: We have had “there was definitely no fraud” stuffed down our faces from Day One.
yes, you are right. everything you say is right. everything everyone else says is wrong. we are so sorry to have ever doubted you. can you forgive us? please forgive us. we have undermined your revolution. if it fails now, it is our fault. we loved your dictator, and that was wrong. how do you say death to the dictator in your language? will you teach us? please teach us. we will amend our soulless support of the tyrant who afflicts you. please, save us from perdition, and accept our forgiveness. we are scum. we are horrible people. we are sorry.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 20:49 utc | 69

@Dragonfly 60
Prove me the crime actually happened, I am only passing on what my friend told me. BTW he does not live in Tehran and I do believe him.

Posted by: hans | Jun 24 2009 20:49 utc | 70

Alex, superb post and poignant final line: “I would prefer, in their interest, that they reach a deal, a nationalist government with an Islamic colouring. It’s not impossible.
We were reaching that stage under 8 years of Khatemi, but the U.S. and Israel thought they could break Iran up by rejecting Khatemi’s well documented peace overtures (that were fully supported by Khamenei, who was willing to give it a try). So thanks to the Neocons we ended up with religious extremism.
The demonstrators ‘only’ want jobs, less stifling censorship and the socio-ecomomic progress that had begun under Khatemi with a tenth of the oil revenues Ahmadinejad has enjoyed (and mismanaged/stolen/wasted).

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:51 utc | 71

parviz
must i remind you that it was you who said there would be a massive general strike,(& you were supported in this thesis by slothrop) it was you who sd there were hamas & hezbollah irregulars – so please stop beating around the fucking bush
about me communism, soviet union – you are really living in la la land – do you think i dicuss things with my revolutionary council before i post & we are all wanting ministries when the new bolsheviks sieze power – really parviz – i think you must have a whole library of anti communist literature that you dip into from time to time – but for me it is essentially comic
but when you say something my friend you have to take responsibility for it – i think that is a simple enough rule. & b has been ruthlessly clear with himself on this point

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 20:52 utc | 72

David, you assume the Protesters are the Iranian people. That’s the mistake. The Teabaggers aren’t the American people anymore than the Protesters in Iran are the Iranian people. See hans @60.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 20:52 utc | 73

dragonfly @62: i’m not exactly sure what you’re getting at. i am an intellectual lightweight, so you have to speak simply to me, or else i won’t get it. i blame american television.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 20:53 utc | 74

Oh, I see, no offence, Hans, but you were in Tehran once, two years ago, and you’re now an authority on what people down here think and feel? Wow! You’re a genius.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 20:56 utc | 75

Simpering, foolish protestor describes scene today in Tehran.
rememberringberia, you breathless windbag.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 21:00 utc | 76

and you Parviz are the single voice for almost 8 million people.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 24 2009 21:01 utc | 77

Lizard (53) I don’t know how long it took you to compose that poem, but here’s my spontaneous reply, not in easy prose but a quatrain in iambic pentameters:
There was a blog that that like a serpent charmed
new visitors, who were forthwith disarmed,
and sliding through the undergrowth a snake
that proved to all the lizard was a fake.
It’s 01:30 down here. Goodnight.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:01 utc | 78

I really do not understand this polemic. It is mad. Parviz is not, and cannot be, a liar, as b, amongst others, have suggested. He has his point of view, seen from Tehran.

Posted by: Alex_no | Jun 24 2009 21:01 utc | 79

Parviz @75 I am telling you what my friend mentioned. I never said I was an expert but my friend is also a citizen of Iran and he has a different perpective to yours. Why do you not accept that others do not share your views.

Posted by: hans | Jun 24 2009 21:02 utc | 80

Now, if annie was there, she would have taunted the protesters with her devastatingly poignant clown costume.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 21:05 utc | 81

One more:
Above the hue and cry I hear a voice,
louder than most but never says a thing
worth while, and victim of a foolish choice
— A Giap that isn’t worth remembering.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:06 utc | 82

slothrop
i always knew cnn owned your soul, but now you have gone & proved it

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 21:07 utc | 83

Now that was brilliant

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 24 2009 21:07 utc | 84

Obamageddon@73
I’d thought it would be better to forget trying to engage in any dialog ’cause there is a lot of stuff being posted that reminds me of a guy with hayfever… No sense 🙂
I would except Lizard’s poem… nice words that create quite an image.
Big O@ 73 I’m not sure if you’re working some top secret Gonzo doublespeak that I can’t comprehend, but I’ve met quite a few of the teabaggers (you can tell they must be conservatives to take a name like that) and I can gar-run-tee they is Americans, at least in the sense of being considered as such by the government.
I think it is foolish to dismiss the Iranian protesters outright (as for the teabaggers – remember they are the ones with the guns, ammo and a bunch of different medication they take ’cause of their age) and even more foolish to think that there aren’t several different jackals poised to make a meal out of the Iranians if they don’t play their game very carefully. But as I suggested in my first post… What if this whole deal is some grand theater distracting the west from bombing the crap out of them.
I’d be willing to bet that Iran remains a distinct geographic/political/ethnic reality long after multi-cultural U.S. is nothing more than a chain of fast food restaurants specializing in burgers, fries and milkshakes.

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 21:10 utc | 85

Come on guys, it’s late at night here and I can’t sleep because of all you windbags that are disturbing my Chi:
Anyone else want to insult me? I fight, in true Omar Khayyam style, with the pen and not the sword. Go for it, poetic answer guaranteed within 60 seconds. If I get stuck in English I’ll reply in Persian, the original language of the quatrain, or in Haiku for China_Hand.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:11 utc | 86

parviz
i love your reasoned responses to question i asked about your own rhetoric. you have been caught telling lies at worst & or of being absolutely incapable of interpreting events that you suggest is passing before your eyes
so i think it is both fair & just not to believe a word you say. though i do not trust our friend dragonfly completely – at least she has the merit of coherence & she doesn’t tell outright lies as you & amir are wont to do

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 21:13 utc | 87

& slothrop
really you wouldn’t know a poem if it entered your rectum with the red detachment of women who were taking tiger mountain by strategy

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 21:16 utc | 88

hans @ 70
Please do yourself a favor and do not embarrass yourself.
I will explain the whole situation to you in a simple language to make sure you do understand. If you have problems understanding me, please let me know and I will give it another go.
Here is the story:
1. There is a government in Iran led by Mr. Ahmadinejad and overseen by the Ayatollah Khamenei.
2. There is a presidential election and the Ayatollah Khamenei favors Mr. Ahmadinejad for reelection.
3. The election is administered by a businessman: a corrupt, both financially and politically, ex-IRGC commander who is also Mr. Ahmadinejad’s lifelong buddy appointed the Minister of Interior.
4. The election is overseen and monitored by a watchdog called the Guardian Council whose members (1) Do not believe in the popular will; (2) Believe that the power of the Leader Ayatollah Khamenei to whom they are accountable is unlimited and his decrees must be followed without question; (3) Have repeatedly made clear who their favored candidate is; you guessed right: Ahmadinejad.
5. Election administrators and monitors are overwhelmingly picked and trained from the cadre of the Basij, a force within the IRGC. The Basij is the fifth force of the IRGC along with the Army, Navy, Air Force and the Jerusalem Force.
6. The IRGC high command and most senior officers also favor the incumbent Mr. Ahmadinejad.
Now to the institutional arrangements of the election:
1. No one can monitor the counting of the votes;
2. The votes can be certified at the polling station and re-certified again at the Ministry of Interior. This means that the election officials at each polling station do not attest to a tally at the end of the day and release it to the campaigns. But even if the campaigns somehow learn of the tally they have no proof. This means that even if the election workers at each polling station are honest; their certificate can later be altered at the MOI where the ballots are kept. In other words, election workers do not even need to know there will be fraud.
3. Once the disaggregated results for each polling station are released, the campaigns cannot compare them with any solid number because they were not given the tallies at the end of vote counting.
4. Suppose you are at a recount of a polling station: The real vote:
Mousavi 80; Ahmadinejad 10; Karroubi 3; Rezaee 4; Inadmissible 3.
The vote reported by the MOI:
Mousavi 10; Ahmadinejad 80; Karroubi 3; Rezaee 4; Inadmissible 3.
Here is my question: Suppose the GC representative who is supposed to certify the recount says with a straight face that the MOI numbers are valid. You are Mousavi’s representative in the recount. What can you do? The answer NOTHING.
How likely is it for the GC representative to do this? At this point very likely. His bosses want Mr. Ahmadinejad to be reelected, meaning that even if he sides with the truth his report will be altered and he will lose his job; the Ayatollah Khamenei wants Ahmadinejad to be declared the winner which means if he opposes that he will be charged with “opposing the decree of the Leader”, which incidentally guarantees him a place in the cooler for some time.
Now why do we need to give the government the benefit of the doubt and assume that it has not cheated? In this circumstance the default mode for us should be to assume that the government cheats unless proven otherwise. Now under these conditions, please show me that the election results are correct, not withstanding statistical analysis that strongly suggests the election was rigged.

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 21:17 utc | 89

Since there are no takers, a eulogy:
The fire of MoA burns bright and strong,
e’en though the message is so often wrong,
but David stays aloof with calming song,
the voice of reason in a rabble throng.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:18 utc | 90

Poor Mousavi, he is called a CIA stooge by the likes of Annie
copy paste?
i am very disappointed to find antifa leaving us. i do not know where this idea b is repressing us comes from. everyone has a right to their opinion around here and insults have been flying from both sides quite fluently. people just have completely different takes on this thing, that’s all.
my main beef is i don’t think we have any business weighing in on irans elections. they didn’t weigh in on ours in 2000 and 2004 and i cannot seriously consider the consequences a stolen election in iran could possibly even compare to the death devestation and grief as a result of our stolen election. and where was the screaming and moaning over that? over ohio? i was devastated and found very little support here. did i go on and on moaning and groaning and insulting everyone who disagreed w/me. as i recall discussion of the election was hounded out of kos trumped as some wild conspiracy theory.
so why should it matter? we should stay out of it and not support this non stop coverage by the msm who is obsessed w/iran. the issues i care about (iraq and palestine), what indication do we have the people of iran have sufffered one iota in comparison to those calamities.
One word response, “Cuba”
oh bugger off. you crack me up. “doesn’t mean that the political reality that replaces ….. will automatically be oppressive”..and exactly what is that supposed to mean???? do you think my position is formed because i think the opposing side is going to be more oppressive? then you would be wrong. i have no idea who would be better, what i do know is it is none of my god damn business. nor should it be. there is no evidence my interaction, support, 2 cents worth is going to make any contribution that will bring this to a closure. it is like weighing in on your neighbors divorce.
here is an analogy you might like. my neighbors down the street are comprised of a couple w/an abusive husband. so my husband decided to go over there and give him a piece of his mind, only he did it with his fist and ended up bloodying up the place including killing the dog and 1/2 the children. my husbands best friend is also a wife beater and regularily beats the crap out of his family but my husband turns a blind eye to that because they are ideological allies. but the best friend really can’t stand the family on there right but the husband in that couple is so big he intimidates the best friend who is continually lobbying my husband to go over there and inflict the kind of pain he is so good at. this has been going on for a few years but lately there’s a rumor the wife (of the big guy) is being abused. possibly quite badly.
should i advise my husband to get involved. should i get involved. i really don’t want any members of that family killed, but what are the chances my husbands intervention will leave the family worse off than had he never got involved?
doesn’t mean that if my husband gets involved that it will automatically be another oppressive slap down like the last time he bloodied up the place. in fact just because my husbands friend is trying to topple the big neighbor doesn’t mean that the reality that replaces the current reality will automatically be oppressive to the neighbors and they will be completely beholden to my husband…
David, one name response: Lorena Bobbitt
bwwwaaahhhh, i better send my husband to make it right!
🙂

Posted by: annie | Jun 24 2009 21:19 utc | 91

This is for Bernhard:
to b. or not to b.,
that is his question.
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind
to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
or in one fell swoop to close the Blog.
Insults, ingratitude, burnt effigies,
are rewards for my pains.
Would that someone rid me of
this Parviz, that I may ease my furrowed brow
and not awake in anticipation
of another post to deal with: How?
Goodnight, brave warriors, and to the breach,
let us this man a lesson teach.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:23 utc | 92

nice verses, parviz, i enjoyed them. maybe you should target b next, i’ll start you off:
the host of the moon
is a dangerous man
who spews propaganda
in support of iran
and from his armchair
cheers the baton
and waits for the day
the empire is gone

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 21:24 utc | 93

shit, parviz, you beat me to it. congrats.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 24 2009 21:25 utc | 94

Irantoon of the week

Posted by: parvati_roma | Jun 24 2009 21:25 utc | 95

Lizard
The idea was to see if you appreciate other cultures. You did as all Lizards do. 🙂

Posted by: Dragonfly | Jun 24 2009 21:25 utc | 96

“you have been caught telling lies at worst & or of being absolutely incapable of interpreting events that you suggest is passing before your eyes”
Sorry r’giap, I’ve already written your poem. You’re not getting another one.

Posted by: Parviz | Jun 24 2009 21:25 utc | 97

Parviz,
I’d be honored to engage you in a war of words, but I’m afraid I’d have to concede ’cause I can barely fight in my native tongue, and you’d throw some of that Persian voodoo down and next thing I know I’d be watching my brain melt out of my nose and run down the front of my shirt…
How about a game of what if? instead?
What do you think is going to happen in the next five days?
What about the next two years?
And regionally what do you want to see? And honestly how do you think the region will “look” (india/pak, iraq, the rest of the arab region in relation to Iran) politically, when the dust settles in say two to five years?
If you can’t sleep and want something other than other’s snipes to focus on, how about thinking on these instead?

Posted by: DavidS | Jun 24 2009 21:26 utc | 98

David, no need to insult me, I haven’t insulted you.
Two words will help you understand my point. Representative and Monolithic.
I take umbrage when a politician presumes to speak for the “American People” as in “the American People Will Not Tolerate,” or “The American People Have Spoken.” I take umbrage when a country is categorically classified as one people, especially a country in the Middle East who’s borders were drawn up by British Cololialists.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Jun 24 2009 21:27 utc | 99

don’t go too fast for slothrop, gan – he’s still in the dictionary at ‘e’ looking up the difference between eulogy & elegy – i’ll give you a hint my dullard friend -they both come from the greek elegia

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 24 2009 21:29 utc | 100