Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 28, 2009

Coup In Honduras

The Honduran president, Manuel Zelaya, was ousted by the army on Sunday after pressing ahead with plans for a referendum that opponents said could lay the groundwork for his eventual re-election, in the first military coup in Central America since the end of the cold war.
President Obama said Sunday that he was deeply concerned by the reports from Honduras about the detention and expulsion of the president.
Mr. Zelaya, who has the support of labor unions and the poor, is an ally of President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela. During his three years in office, opposition to the president has mounted from the middle class and the wealthy business community who fear that he is planning to introduce Mr. Chávez’s brand of socialist populism into the country, one of Latin America’s poorest.
Honduran President Is Ousted in Coup , NYT, June 28, 2009


TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras, Jan. 30, 2009 – The commander of U.S. Southern Command arrived here yesterday to reaffirm the United States’ strategic partnership with Honduras and praise the solid bilateral and interagency cooperation that is delivering tangible success.
Declaring an “excellent state of cooperation between our two militaries,” [Navy Adm. James G.] Stavridis lauded tremendous progress within Honduras’ 11,000-member military.
“The future of national security is the interagency, all working together,” he said.
Stavridis Praises U.S.-Honduran Cooperation in Confronting Mutual Threats, Defense Link

I am confident that readers and commentators here are able to conclude the rest of this tale.

Posted by b on June 28, 2009 at 19:09 UTC | Permalink

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If we don't stop them in Honduras, the Socialists will be taking over Miami within a decade.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jun 28 2009 19:17 utc | 1

change we can believe in ;(

Posted by: totoro | Jun 28 2009 19:21 utc | 2

narcosphere: School of the Americas-Trained Military Detains and Expels Democratically-Elected President Zelaya


Zelaya told TeleSUR that he doesn't believe it was regular soldiers who kidnapped him. "I have been the victim of a kidnapping carried out by a group of Honduran soldiers. I don't think the Army is supporting this sort of action. I think this is a vicious plot planned by elites. Elite who only want to keep the country isolated and in extreme poverty."


Radio Es Lo De Menos, an independent radio station reporting from Honduras, issued a press release before its power was cut. The press release states that several cabinet members have been detained, and there are arrest warrants out for other cabinet members as well as leaders of social organizations. It calls on the international community to hold protests outside Honduran embassies and consulates.

TeleSUR reports that the soldiers have also arrested the Cuban, Venezuelan, and Nicaraguan ambassadors to Honduras, as well as Chancellor Patricia Rodas. The Venezuelan ambassador told TeleSUR that the soldiers beat him during the kidnapping. La Prena reports that soldiers have detained at least one pro-Zelaya mayor, San Pedro Sula's Rodolfo Padilla Sunseri.

Cell phones are reportedly no longer working in Honduras. The power has been cut in at least some parts of the country, disabling independent media and state television stations for the time being. Before the state televisions went off the air, Channel 8 managed to communicate to its viewers, "It appears as though the soldiers are coming here." Seconds before it went off the air, Channel 8 told citizens to gather in the Plaza de la Libertad. Channel 8 appears to have been taken over by the military, but it is still not transmitting.


Soldiers have also moved to block the opinion poll that sparked the coup. Today Hondurans were supposed to register their opinion in a non-binding poll that asked them, "Do you think that the November 2009 general elections should include a fourth ballot box in order to make a decision about the creation of a National Constitutional Assembly that would approve a new Constitution?" The poll would have had no legal weight.

In the town of Trujillo, soldiers have taken the streets and are not allowing citizens to vote in the opinion poll.

In Santa Rosa, soldiers reportedly under the orders of the Federal Prosecutors Office have seized ballot boxes from schools and public places.

Soldiers seized ballot boxes in Dulce Nombre Copan as well, but citizens have gone to the military base to take them back again.

In Santa Barbara, La Prensa reports that the opinion poll is going on as planned, with no interference thus far from the military.

Soldiers are also carrying out operations on the country's major highways, according to La Prensa. The situation could get ugly on the highways, as La Prensa reports that peasants from the Guadalupe Carney community have taken over some highways.


The crisis in Honduras began when the military refused to distribute ballot boxes for the opinion poll in a new Constitution. President Zelaya fired the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Romeo Orlando Vasquez Velasquez, who refused to step down. The heads of all branches of the Honduran armed forces quit in solidarity with Vasquez. Vasquez, however, refused to step down, bolstered by support in Congress and a Supreme Court ruling that reinstated him. Vasquez remains in control of the armed forces.

Vasquez, along with other military leaders, graduated from the United States' infamous School of the Americas (SOA). According to a School of the Americas Watch database compiled from information obtained from the US government, Vasquez studied in the SOA at least twice: once in 1976 and again in 1984.

The head of the Air Force, Gen. Luis Javier Prince Suazo, studied in the School of the Americas in 1996. The Air Force has been a central protagonist in the Honduran crisis. When the military refused to distribute the ballot boxes for the opinion poll, the ballot boxes were stored on an Air Force base until citizens accompanied by Zelaya rescued them. Zelaya reports that after soldiers kidnapped him, they took him to an Air Force base, where he was put on a plane and sent to Costa Rica.

Posted by: b real | Jun 28 2009 19:24 utc | 3

2006: Honduras Becomes U.S. Military Foothold for Central America

of course, as everyone should know, honduras was the base of u.s. "anti-communist" operations in the region during the 1980's

Posted by: b real | Jun 28 2009 19:34 utc | 4

I'd like to see a map of Central and south America right now, with left-leaning states in red, US clients and right-wing/military governments in blue, and those in the middle, in play, in very pale green. I see a ten year chess game shaping up here.

Posted by: senecal | Jun 28 2009 19:41 utc | 5

excerpt from lesley gill's study, the school of the americas: military training and political violence in the americas (2004)

Not surprisingly, as the Honduran military became integrated into a hemispheric military apparatus controlled by the United States, it grew more powerful and autonomous vis-a-vis other branches of the Honduran state and more dependent technologically, economically, and politically on the United States. As a result, the United States was able to intervene in the internal disputes and rivalries that plagued the Honduran military and influence the outcomes.

Honduran officers forged close, albeit conflictive, relationships to each other in the Honduran military academy, which was created with U.S. assistance in the 1950s. Through these connections, officers forged shifting alliances that shaped patterns of mobility and informed their dealings with the United States.

from an alert from the group rights action

We are extremely concerned for the safety of the human rights organizations that have supported the President and the efforts for Constitutional Reform.

Currently there are reports of the military pursuing civil society leaders in the street. COPINH, the National Council of Indigenous Peoples has strongly backed the constitutional reform effort. The home of Bertha Caceres, a leader of COPINH, has been under military and police surveillance for several days. Today leaders of COPINH have been pursued by the military in the street, and are in hiding.
On Tuesday of last week Fabio Ochoa, the regional coordinator promoting the Constitutional reform consultations, was shot five times when leaving a television station after promoting the constitutional reform. He is in intensive care.

The proposal to draft a new constitution is the culmination of a series of controversial measures undertaken in his presidency, which include a significant raise in the minimum wage, measures to re- nationalize energy generation plants and the telephone system, signing a bill that vastly improves labor conditions for teachers, joining the Venezuelan Petrocaribe program which provides soft loans for development initiatives via petroleum sales, delaying recognition of the new US ambassador after the Bolivian government implicated the US embassy in supporting fascist paramilitary groups destabilizing Bolivia, and others.

Posted by: b real | Jun 28 2009 19:57 utc | 6

President Zelaya of Honduras has just been kidnapped Obama's First Coup D'etat ?

Also, Venezuelan, Cuban, and Nicaraguan Ambassadors to Honduras Kidnapped


June 28th 2009, by James Suggett
Mérida, June 28th 2009 ( – Military personnel kidnapped the ambassadors of Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua in Honduras, along with the Honduran Foreign Relations Minister Patricia Rodas, according to Venezuela’s ambassador to the Organization of American States (OAS), Roy Chaderton.

Chaderton made the announcement just before noon today during an emergency meeting of the OAS in Washington that was convened to respond to the military coup d’etat underway in the Honduras.

“Excuse the interruption, it is an urgent matter. I have just received information in this moment that the ambassadors of Nicaragua, Cuba, Venezuela,and Foreign Relations Minister Patricia Rodas have been kidnapped by a group ofhooded military agents,” said Chaderton.

Rodas confirmed the kidnapping in a hurried phone call to the Caracas-based television channel Telesur as the kidnapping was underway, according to Telesur.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 28 2009 19:57 utc | 7

eva gollinger's blog is currently running live updates

Posted by: b real | Jun 28 2009 20:02 utc | 8

The people of Latin America have begun to pay for amerika's experiment with a 'kinder' prezdency is how I see it. The oblamblam administration's fingerprints will be all over this travesty, which the media will attempt to insinuate is just par for the course with those crazy Latin Americans, as though fuckin filthy amerikans weren't at the heart of the overthrow of every popularly supported government in Latin America for the last 150 years.
The strategy of oppression concealed by white amerikan enthnocentrism is a particularly ugly beast, one which Latin American people are heartily sick of.
Although it is unlikely that there will be anywhere near as sensationalist or condemnatory media coverage of Honduras's move against the people this week, as last week's allegations of electoral improprietory in Iran caused, that won't prevent the attitudes of the people of Honduras from hardening behind Zelaya.
Of course Hondurans will rightly be reluctant for a return to the bad old days when amerikan trained hit squads murdered thousands of citizens a week, though frankly it is difficult to see how the amerikan empire could get away with such horrors now. Even the despicable patronage inherent in the corporate controlled mainstream media's downplay of a violent anti-Honduran coup, couldn't extend to turning a blind eye to a long empire orchestrated campaign of violence against the indigenous people of Latin America.

The interweb would be full of the gory details in no time, and, that same interweb's ability to keep up information flows will also mean maintaining the fear and ignorance of the old days thorough misinformation, is nigh impossible.
John Ross exposes the differences in the NYT coverage of an alleged stolen election in Iran in 2009 and an undeniable blatant and documented stolen election; Mexico 2006. The comparison should make all those 'democrats' who were overcome with hysteria at suggestion of Iran's electoral fraud whilst they were silent over their neighbours in Mexico's proven ballot theft, hang their heads in shame, but it won't, although even so this paradox does presage difficulties for the empire's Latin America strategy.

The obvious difficulties in information control combined with the former school of amerika's current gig of breeding muslim quislings, not xtian elitists makes it difficult to comprehend how the amerikan empire imagines it can succeed in turning back the clock in Latin America.
Even if they had the money to pay for another expensive war, manpower is also in short supply. Not only are all available yankee 'advisors' busy wreaking murder and mayhem in the ME, local traitors will also be tough to come by. Many of the bourgeois Latin Americans who were once available for service murdering their fellow countrymen, are now fighting directly for the empire in Iraq and Afghanistan on a promise of amerikan citizenship, why would they even care what happens back in the homeland they have so eagerly deserted?
If they do chose to keep fighting after they grab their new passport, they will want wages comparable to ME mercenary pay, not the pittance amerika shelled out to Latin American traitors throughout the 20th century.
I can't see that there will be sufficient takers at any wage, or that amerika will be able to find sufficient financial backers for an enterprise that is more about prestige than cold cash.
Amerika's creditors are already jacking up over having to underwrite the ME horror. At least there it can be claimed there is a possibility of securing hydrocarbon hegemony, but in Latin America all the tottering empire can offer is the false dream of a domino effect. "What we started in Tegucigalpa will end in Caracas" and all that, the reality is far less certain.
Lots of innocents will die as the corrupt, dying monster blindly flails about, but ultimately, it won't change a thing.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 28 2009 20:58 utc | 9

the fake 'resignation letter' by zelaya is exacly the same procedure used against chavez in the coup in 2002. in the hours that they held him they faked a letter of resignation but in fact the movement of the people was too rapid for the putchists

i hope the people in honduras are able to follow their venezuelan brothers & sisters

there is simply no way that the united states was not involved & even in the face of worldwide condemnation - the u s will recognise the putchists. i truly hope he doesn't but i know that in fact, he will

i have been watching telesur non stop

correa has just given a strong declaration of support for zelaya & there is no leader in latin america today who offers open support for the coup. even colombia has spoken against it

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 21:02 utc | 10

none, absolutely none of the provisional governors in honduras resognise the putschist president

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 21:07 utc | 11

this is a moment of truth for Obama. Not only is Zelaya feeely & fairly democratically elected the president, he is also very popular amongst the people. Nothing less than a demand for the restoration of Zelaya will suffice from Obama.

And the USA needs to stop fooling itself that it has the power to impose its will on anyone. Those days have been over.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Jun 28 2009 21:14 utc | 12

checked cnn, and fareed is talking to bob baer about the military coup...

in iran.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 28 2009 21:18 utc | 13

This WSJ story suggests that Obama will have to come out against the coup or else give the stage to Chavez.

The Obama administration worked in recent days to prevent President Zelaya's ouster, a senior U.S. official said. The State Department, in particular, communicated to Honduran officials on the ground that President Obama wouldn't support any non-democratic transfer of power in the Central American country.

"We had some indication" that a move against Mr. Zelaya was a foot, said a U.S. official briefed on the diplomacy. "We made it clear it was something we didn't support."

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton joined Mr. Obama Sunday in criticizing the Honduran coup and calling for the restoration of the democratic process.

"We call on all parties in Honduras to respect the constitutional order and the rule of law, to reaffirm their democratic vocation, and to commit themselves to resolve political disputes peacefully and through dialogue," Mrs. Clinton said in a statement.

I don't see any weasel words in the above statement.

The article seems to have a bit of revisionist history when it comes to the coup in Venezuela but I honestly don't know how that all went down.

Mr. Chávez himself survived a brief coup in 2002. He was arrested by top Venezuelan officers who refused his order to fire on a huge demonstration as protesters headed toward the presidential palace.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 28 2009 21:21 utc | 14

Obama will have to speak against the military coup as he so strongly supports the voters' right to have their choices. He has made that very clear regarding Iran. Surely there will US sponsored resolutions for sanctions against the coup-supported government in Honduras?

Now, choices where there is not popular vote, such as large support for a good, comprehensive government run public health care plan here is the US?

Not so much....

Posted by: jawbone | Jun 28 2009 21:28 utc | 15

dan of steel

the lies these fuckers tell

Mr. Chávez himself survived a brief coup in 2002. He was arrested by top Venezuelan officers who refused his order to fire on a huge demonstration as protesters headed toward the presidential palace. Taken to a naval base on a remote island, he nevertheless came back to power two days later after the military refused to back a civilian who was sworn in as his successor, and Mr. Chávez's supporters took to the streets

chavez was attacked by putchists who had already killed dozens of people. they had announced on cnn the deaths od people before it had happened. chavez, did not, at any time demand that troops be used against the people. there was a rift between the military & the oligarchs but it was the massive movement of the people at street level & the support of the rank & file in the armed forces that anhilated the putsch before it began. all the hoods went to their more usual habitat - miami

dan, those sources -the wsj - i wouldn' touch with a barge pole - in latin & ventral america they have common cause with the oligarchs

& the u s which had openly supported the coup through the same bodies they are using in iran - the ned amongst others - were involved up to their nicks, demonstrably so. bush at that time waxed ambivalent & the real test will be about recognition. if obamaa recognises the putchists - then it will be clear & unambiguous

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 21:34 utc | 16


watching the honduran congress on telesur & they are trying to give a parliamentary beneer to their coup. if obama should recognise that congress - we will see

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 21:37 utc | 17

it's a brutal coup d'etat, one of many that happened over 10 years in Latin America. Behind these soldiers are the Honduran bourgeois, the rich who converted Honduras into a Banana Republic, into a political and military base for North American imperialism," said the Venezuelan head of state.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 21:43 utc | 18

He also urged the Honduran soldiers who "acted in a cowardly way" to retake the constitutional thread and return the legally and democratically elected President [Zelaya] to his duties.

"Soldier, empty out your riffle against the oligarchy and not against the people," he said, adding, "These solders are going to know what the people are when the people start to go out into the streets."

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 21:45 utc | 19

Fire up the torture chambers. The generals are back baby.

Posted by: rapier | Jun 28 2009 21:48 utc | 20

honduras has been the centre - the veritable centre - of the horror & slaughter the u s empire visited on latin america. the resonance of this coup will be heard throughout every country within it

it is important to note that the american forces in honduras are largely special forces & their talent for murder is well known. i do not think they are being inactive - or sleeping in their bunks

the torture applied to the people of the middle east was honed here in latin america, especially honduras - the school of americas is alive & well whatever name it might choose

& gollinger points out clearly - that in none of the statements by the americans - whether it is the ambassador, hilary clinton or barrack obama has the word coup been mentioned - & that is not an incidental or semantic lapse

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 21:59 utc | 21

the president of the general assembly of the u n has accused the devil himself, john negroponte of being involved

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 22:16 utc | 22

& the putchist there have their own hamas & hezbollah story - they argue that they have instituted a coup because of the presence of 'venezuelan' & 'nicaraguan' elements

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 28 2009 22:22 utc | 23

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez Sunday put his troops on alert over a coup in Honduras and said he would respond militarily if his envoy to the Central American country was killed or kidnapped.

Chavez said Honduran soldiers took away the Cuban ambassador and left the Venezuelan ambassador on the side of a road after beating him during the army's coup against Honduran President Manuel Zelaya.

The Honduran army ousted Zelaya and exiled him Sunday in Central America's first military coup since the Cold War, after he upset the army by trying to win re-election.

Chavez, on state television, said if the Venezuela ambassador was killed, or troops entered the Venezuela embassy, "that military junta would be entering a defacto state of war, we would have to act militarily." He said,"I have put the armed forces of Venezuela on alert."

Chavez said that if a new government is sworn in after the coup it would be defeated. "We will bring them down, we will bring them down, I tell you," he said.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 28 2009 23:21 utc | 24

b real: of course, as everyone should know, honduras was the base of u.s. "anti-communist" operations in the region during the 1980's

Yeah, John Negroponte was US Ambassador to Honduras in the 80's. He specialized in the democracy-building techniques (torture & death squads) currently being practiced by Gen. McChrystal in Afghanistan.

Posted by: Watson | Jun 29 2009 0:01 utc | 25

All of the people posting that Mel Zelaya is popular in Honduras and that what happened today was an ilegal military coup are clearly NOT honduran and ignorant to our constitucion. Im a 24 year old honduran and I personally dont know anyone that supports Zelaya or that isn't happy that he got destituded and exiled, like OUR law says he should be after clearly beind a continual violator of our constitution. People who support chavez and his left wing ideals have clearle not been in touch with any real poverty. What this "popular" leaders do is play with the ignorance of the poorest, offering them cash for them to go and "support" them in riots or vote in favor of them. What happend today in Honduras was the best thing that could have happend and like I said, most people in our country is behind this. We will be able to keep our democracy and presidential elections will be held on november this year. This wouldn't have happend if Mel Zelaya would have carried out his plans. I kindly ask all outsiders that are giving out their ignorant opinions to please get informed before talking. Here I post a link to the honduran constitution( , the first and last chapters are very clear on how no president can get reelected and on how it is elegal and a violation to this document to want to change this. It also states how the political government is constituded in 3 powers and no one power is above the other, making it ilegal for Zelaya to hold his "referendum to the constitution poll" when the honduras supreme court had declared it ilegal. And it also states how the Republic of Honduras is a free, independant and democratic country, leaving Honduras business to Hondurans. Respecfully I say that no country, not venezuela, USA or any other nation has any business in our country since the military and government are just establishing the law. Please get informed before posting.

Posted by: M | Jun 29 2009 0:25 utc | 26

If nobody supports Zelaya than how did this proposed referendum pose a threat to anybody? Or if a majority supported Zelaya on the referendum it would have had no legal standing, and the Court could have ruled that Zelaya couldn't run for re-election. Neither result would justify the ousting of the President during his term of office, as has been done.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 29 2009 0:38 utc | 27

M - Some of us are from the region and know better. Even those who aren't from the region aren't stupid - we know that a 'referendum' is part and parcel of a democracy. While a 'coup' is a weapon of dictatorship. If you want sympathy for your nonsense, go to a fascist website.

Posted by: D. Mathews | Jun 29 2009 1:08 utc | 28

Funny how web sites that just last week were bleating their solidarity with Iranian protesters now have nothing to say!

Democracy and free elections are only for Washington's foes--except when the elections might go the wrong way...

Posted by: JohnH | Jun 29 2009 1:26 utc | 29

@ 26:

All of the people posting that Mel Zelaya is popular in Honduras and that what happened today was an ilegal military coup are clearly NOT honduran and ignorant to our constitucion.

Oh sure M military coups happen in a democracy all the time. Only in a true democracy would an elected President get kidnapped and dumped in a foreign country by the military. I mean we wouldn't want to have any dangerous referendums in a democracy now would we. After all who could imagine a democracy wherein the people could actually express their preferences?

What this "popular" leaders do is play with the ignorance of the poorest, offering them cash for them to go and "support" them in riots or vote in favor of them.

Aha the true motive is revealed. The son of a bitch gave money to the poor. How totally evil to give the poor money especially since they are ignorant. Only the enlightened elite should get money eh M?

Posted by: Sam | Jun 29 2009 1:42 utc | 30

I love this sentence which reeks of the twisted logic behind the recent coup in Thailand:
From post #26 above:What this "popular" leaders do is play with the ignorance of the poorest, offering them cash for them to go and "support" them in riots or vote in favor of them.

So middle class voters which support politicians who subsidise their businesses distort infrastructure expenditure to favour the urban minority, aren't giving in to "vote-buying" but the poor who vote for governments which prevent further incursions into indigenous land holdings (and even sometimes return stolen lands) and who ensure that all citizens gain benefits from govt expenditure and infrastructure are guilty of succumbing to vote buying. I have never been able to work that one out.
It takes decades for the poor to drip away at the stone of intransigent and corrupt systems that began as military dictatorships designed to favour a wealthy minority along with greedy foreigners, yet when they do make necessary changes to a constitution doubtless foisted upon Honduras after the murdering dictatorship whose stink of swollen corpses reached washington, installed a suitable puppet government prior to a return to democratic principles, it isn't the murdering thieves who crafted the distorted constitution who are criticised it is the people who wish to end the distortions which cop the abuse.

Still m is only 24 too young to remember Battalion 316 He should be so lucky

I remember decades of right wing dictatorships throughout Latin America, when the tyrants regularly altered their nation's constitution to allow a continued stay in power. those assholes never put their changes to referendum, they just decreed them. Washington (who in all likelihood paid for the lawyers to draft the changes) never said a word then.
Now that leftish governments are making amendments legitimately through referendums washington types are screeching and hollering.

If oblamblam knew the coup was coming and he thought it was bad why didn't he a/ alert Zelaya and b/ offer to give him a hand to protect democracy?
This is just oblamblam more lying bullshit - prolly a cover in case the fact that washington knew about the coup (prolly cause they planned it) ever surfaces.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 29 2009 1:59 utc | 31

I'd just like to point out for the record that NBC Nightly News' lead story this evening is Michael goddamn Jackson.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 29 2009 2:57 utc | 32

Ousted Honduran president refuses to resign

·"I was kidnapped with force, violence and brutality," Ousted Zelaya told media.

·Zelaya denied having signed a letter of resignation and called for international help.

·Soldiers surrounded Zelaya's residence and forced him to board a plane to Costa Rica.

"I was kidnapped with force, violence and brutality," he told media at a joint press conference with Costa Rican President Oscar Arias Sanchez.

He said that between eight and 10 hooded and heavily armed soldiers had entered his home and forced him to board a plane without telling him the destination.

"I was in my pajamas and did not even have socks on," he said.

"This move is a blow to a nation and a slap in the face for the whole world," he added.

Zelaya also denied having signed a letter of resignation, which was read to the Honduran congress by National Congress Secretary Jose Alfredo Saavedra. The document read by Saavedra said that Zelaya was leaving because of a "polarized political situation which could lead to domestic conflict and insuperable health problems."

"I have not resigned and will not resign," Zelaya said. "My government will end in 2010. I am Honduras' president and only the people can remove me or appoint me," he said.

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 29 2009 3:00 utc | 33

Hm, the methods and sequencing of events are straight out of the same gamebook, step by step, as the first attempted coup against Chavez ... after all, we have this down to a fine art now ... it's pretty routine from a US operational perspective ... lessons learned ...

Well, no doubt, the State Department and even Obama (Mr Change !?) will denounce publicly in the strongest possible terms the military coup of a democratically elected leader ... the US will lead a UN Security Council Resolution denouncing the coup and seek the strongest possible sanctions against the coup leaders and backers ... after all there are no 'complicated or delicate' issues here re dimplomatic rapproachment, regional spheres of influence, sponsorship of 'terrorism' or a lawful NPT compliant civilian nuclear enrichment program ...

Hm, I'd better NOT hold my breath ... doubt this story will get worldwide saturation coverage with the lead online story maintaining 18,000-19,000 news acticles for over a fortnight ... nope, not gonna happen ... oh, I'm so confused, why not ...

The criminal stark naked hypocrisy is there for all the world to see ...

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 29 2009 3:12 utc | 34>NARCONEWS is following closely with updates and pictures. Apparently labor leaders are calling for a national strike.

Posted by: anna missed | Jun 29 2009 3:15 utc | 35

Those that have the will to oppose the coup have very little time to act, typically only a 24-72 hiurs, otherwise perception of fultility, real fear, communications control, and 'entrenchment' through key positions of influence and authority by the Coup leaders can smother any potential counter-coup, stillborn ...

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 29 2009 3:22 utc | 36

Where's Parviz?

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 29 2009 3:22 utc | 37

Hm, perhaps he doesn't appreciate satire ;)

Then again, lead online articles re the Iran Election and 'Resistance' have dropped off 75-80% ... down in the 1,500-3,500 article range now ...

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 29 2009 3:25 utc | 38

uncle: breaking news on cnn: obama has sent the jacksons a letter. also, bill clinton met with the jacksons, in person.

in all seriousness the media silence over this particular coup isn't surprising, but in juxtaposition to the megaphone approach the media took with iran, the sound of crickets is a stark contrast indeed.

don bacon@24: that's not good at all. i wonder what a venezuela military response might look like.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 29 2009 3:25 utc | 39

A good summation from Xinhua of relevant reactions ...

Honduras' president ousted in military coup

Honduras' Presidency Minister Enrique Flores Lanza said on Sunday the cabinet was launching a campaign of "peaceful civil resistance" to bring President Manuel Zelaya back to office.

"We are making a call and talking with patriotic leaders in Honduras, because we will begin a peaceful civil resistance in whole country," said the minister.

"People of the country are demonstrating to oppose the attack on democracy," he said.

Local media said eight ministers, including Foreign Minister Patricia Rodas, have been detained, but gave no further details.

Officials from the military told Xinhua Sunday morning that the armed forces have controlled the main roads in the capital and cut off traffic links with the outside.

Few people could be seen on most of the streets in Tegucigalpa, and stores and shopping malls were closed.

Several countries as well as regional and international organizations denounced the military coup and called for a respect for the rule of law in the country.

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 29 2009 3:43 utc | 40

Venezuela's position:

Venezuelan Foreign Minister: Latin America has to Guarantee the Defeat of the Coup in Honduras

... "Latin America has to guarantee the defeat of this coup d'etat and also has to demand, without conditions, the reestablishment of President Manuel Zelaya and ensure justice is done to the fullest extent so that the rabid ultra-right gets a clear message, that they cannot take swipes at the democratic processes that the people are carrying forward," Foreign Minister Maduro expressed.

Minister Maduro said that it is clear that those responsible for this military coup, "those who have not shown their faces, but who will be discovered in the end, should be submitted to international justice for violating the democratic Charter and the constitutional rights of the Honduran people."

"Sooner or later," the Venezuelan foreign minister indicated, "the people accompanied by the governments of Latin America and the Caribbean are going to defeat this coup, fomented by these fascists who kidnapped president Zelaya, and his principle collaborators and who continue to hold captive the [Honduran] foreign minister Patricia Rodas...

Translated for

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 29 2009 3:54 utc | 41

Shame on you all Zelaya Supporters!! Instead of talking so much nonsense and BULLSHIT, I'd like for you to come and live this gruesome situation in Honduras...from where I am writing this email to you all. Go screw yourselves somewhere else. Yes...its true..Zelaya was elected on a democratic fashion but he severely violated our constitutional laws! And what do you say about that? You are judging my country by a military coup overnight that was necessary to overthrow this Non Honduran Bastards out of the government? You dont know how much this "Puppet of Chavez" Zelaya has stolen from the country and how many people he has backstabbed....and all because he is following orders from a Madman Chavez. I love my country and I have never felt more Honduran in my life. I oppose any form of invasion (reports state that Zelaya, Ortega, and Chavez are in Nicaragua planning a strike as we speak)against my country. We shall withstand any foreign outbreak. ..while you queers just lay back and watch it on TV. VIVA HONDURAS MI PAIS HERMOSO POR SIEMPRE! Fuera MEl Zelaya!

Posted by: Kelen Sabillon | Jun 29 2009 5:04 utc | 42

Re #42
And so it begins ... *sigh* ...

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 29 2009 5:16 utc | 43

Shame on all us queers, eh, Kelen? I remember seeing video footage of the pathetic remainder of Pinochet supporters, standing outside the hospital, where the old monster finally croaked. They were shouting still the old insults at their opponents, just as they had before Chile had entered its decade and more of hell. Calling them queers. It's the same old bullshit as it ever was. The military idolizers, the fascist assmunchers, are the same sick people forever. You and your ilk wave guns at people and make democracy go away. A military coup in the morning and everything's ok, is it Kelen?

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 29 2009 5:28 utc | 44

This is an unprecedented situation for our generation, to ask for the public's opinion is no crime, however, when used as a tool to remain in power then it turns into a great menace, fear overwelms those who wish to remain free, and those who stand to gain rejoice....I was ok with asking those who have no voice in the politics of our country, but sadly, that would not be the end of it, a new constitution would guarantee Manuel Zelaya's remain in power, and that, we can't allow....We are a democratic nation, and we will not allow foreign domain, especially from someone far away in the south....It becomes clear that our country is not ready for this types of actions, thank you all.

Posted by: Javier Castro | Jun 29 2009 5:35 utc | 45

Kelen Sabillon@42,
hoping you'll feel the same passion for Miami when you get there

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Jun 29 2009 5:39 utc | 46

ee gads, already we have 3 hondurans represented on the thread!

outraged, i love this from your link

rabid ultra-right

rabid is right!

Posted by: annie | Jun 29 2009 5:59 utc | 47

non-engagement! ignore the bait! no more death by a thousand paper cuts!

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 29 2009 6:00 utc | 48

Pentagon working behind Obama's back? I'm the absolute last person to bring jfk into anything, but wasn't that the same dynamic?

Posted by: Kulic | Jun 29 2009 6:00 utc | 49

Just as likely he is down with it all and just voicing concern for appearances.

Posted by: Kulic | Jun 29 2009 6:06 utc | 50

a new constitution would guarantee Manuel Zelaya's remain in power, and that, we can't allow....We are a democratic nation

who is 'we'? if you are a democratic nation then you can allow a new constitution, you you want.

Posted by: annie | Jun 29 2009 6:09 utc | 51

Re #42:

Oh! There he is!

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 29 2009 6:44 utc | 52

Moon over Miami!

Posted by: biklett | Jun 29 2009 6:51 utc | 53


And y'know what?

They've convinced me.

Their logic and patriotism have truly moved me.

I think it's obvious that i was wrong about Iran's protests, and i don't want to make the same mistake again.

It's such a trial, always being on the wrong side of history.

Thanks, guys, for cluing me in!

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 29 2009 7:02 utc | 54

They've convinced me.

Their logic and patriotism have truly moved me.

me too!

Posted by: annie | Jun 29 2009 7:07 utc | 55

They've convinced me.

Their logic and patriotism have truly moved me.

Yes, they've moved me too ... and I truly am, extremely greatful and appreciative of the unexpected bowel movement.

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 29 2009 7:27 utc | 56

Ain't that Honduran democracy grand:

Some of Zelaya's Cabinet members had been detained by soldiers or police following his ouster, according to former government official Armando Sarmiento. And the rights group Freedom of Expression said leftist legislator Cesar Ham died in a shootout with soldiers trying to detain him.

Democracy at the point of a gun

Yep can't have those heathen common folk re-electing the President now can we?

Posted by: Sam | Jun 29 2009 7:30 utc | 57

A greatful movement!

They should feel proud!

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 29 2009 7:47 utc | 58

fucking unbelievable. in french, but talking about relativism :

so basically the article tries to...justify what happens , because, well, Zelaya started !
best part is in the middle, when they start questionning if it's...a coup (?!) : "Mais s’agit-il vraiment d’un coup d’Etat ? "
how genuine...

reminds me old days (80s) when Chomsky accused Liberation to be "in their worst Reaganian period" or something like that.

I also tried to google Honduras + Martial law to see the feedback, the first 2 links are NY times articles about martial law in Honduras... in 1897 and 1904...

Posted by: totoro | Jun 29 2009 8:22 utc | 59

With the violent overthrow they have given a political victory to Chavez and the leftists in America (I'm not so sure that Zelaya is actually a 'leftist' in any case). If they were true to their intent of showing the 'rule of law' or support for democracy they would just have continued with their legal attempts to stop Zelaya (after all he would be out of power in six months). Sooner or later their supreme court and the parlament could have impeached him for ignoring the law or something. However I guess that trying to go over the military leadership and ignoring their warnings against popular 'revolts' (asking the people) was to much for those defenders of 'rule of law' and 'democracy'. They had to react as their true nature makes them.

If the coup was intended as a message to the anti-US governments in the region I'm not sure it actually would work in that way. All those governments and their supporters already expect the US and allied local elites to act in such a way. This just confirms for those standing on the side that when Chavez talks about coups and conspirations he may or is actually right. It's a Pyrrhic victory because they aren't winning anything with the coup. Perhaps they are just trying to prop-up their dishearten followers in the regions telling that they will always support them ... in any way possible.

The complains about Zelaya (or other leftists presidents) trying to change the law to remain in power removing limitations on the number of re-elections (something that doesn't exist for example in 'democratic' Europe and has a very limited history in the US related with precisely keeping leftists, or something as similar to a leftist as it can be in US as Roosevelt was, from getting a hold on power) is just lame when it had been already common among the right wing elites since militar rule come out of fashion in the late 80s and 90s. They complain now when the leftists keep winning re-elections. And they ignore that US-lap-dog-and-drug-warlord of Uribe in Colombia is quietly trying to do the same to be re-elected for third time.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 29 2009 8:50 utc | 60

Oh, man, I can see I've got to train myself to come here earlier in the day, not right before going to bed. I've been swimming in googles with insufficient goggles on this for hours, and hours, and hours, and this could have saved me maybe half of them....

Posted by: 99 | Jun 29 2009 9:05 utc | 61

I found the following>article in El Pais interesting on explaining what is happening in Honduras. Unfortunately the article is in spanish.

The writer is a member of an ONG and worked for three years, until a few days ago, in Honduras. The consultation that Zelaya was promoting would have been about adding a question on the November presidential election asking the population to support a process to change the constitution. This kind of reforms have become common in the last years as the right wing elites fell out of power in the region. Keep in mind that the constitution was written in 1982 when the fight between the US and its allies against leftist militias was at its full so I doubt the best example of a democratic constitution. Likely the purpose of the constitution wasn't actually democratic rule but keeping the hold on power of the US exponsored elites.

One of the special features of the current constitution is that the parlament/congress, the legislative power, has some of the powers of the executive branch and can spend and distribute large parts of the national budget by itself (which effectively means widespread corruption and redistribution to the top not to the bottom as there are fewer checks than in 'normal' democracies). The constitutional change that Zelaya promotes would go in the direction of removing those executive powers from the legislative and therefore the article presents the conflict as a fight between the different power of the state. Zelaya was elected with the support of one of the two main right wing parties in the country but he has strayed away from their policies. Both reasons make his old party in the congress to be against the constitutional reform. The judiciary power is directly appointed by the congress, the legislative, and as both powers and the military are controlled by the elite it was easy to get the military to stage a coup (I'm not really sure that is the actual 'order' in the hierarchy of power but that's how it's presented in the article).

Zelaya couldn't have presented himself for re-election in November any way and he would have to wait at least for 2013 even if the referendum on the constitutional reform was accepted and later, under a different president, the constitution changed. So all this talk about the matter looks as ill intended propaganda from one side. However a popular movement, leaded by Zelaya, trying to change the hold on power of the current corrupt elites would have been quite dangerous as Zelaya seems to be right now quite popular.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 29 2009 9:43 utc | 62

Zelaya may be deluded, but he was claiming as late as Saturday (in an interview published on Sunday in Spanish daily El Pais) that the US government was not behind the coup.

See here.

Posted by: Migeru | Jun 29 2009 10:16 utc | 63

I'm seeing a lot of the typical anti-Chavez posters on spanish forums supporting this obvious violent military coup as a legal democratic destitution of the president. Never mind that the legal part happened after the assault command and the tanks part. For this kind of people democratically elected presidents like Chavez and Zelaya are dictators and generals and the elites staging armed coups are defenders of democracy.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 29 2009 10:38 utc | 64

Don Bacon @ 27, you are right on the money with this question:

If nobody supports Zelaya than how did this proposed referendum pose a threat to anybody?
He was a threat to no one but the people afraid he might have won the referendum. According to some sources his popularity rating was as low as 25% only a few months ago. If those polls were correct, and our posters from Honduras suggest they do reflect the true sentiment held by the electorate, then why this rush job to kidnap Zelaya and arrange for his forced exile?

Between the two sides to this story, the man who 3 years ago was fair and square elected to be the nation's president, openly approaching the electorate with a proposal to change the constitution to allow future presidents to run for a second term, and Micheletti's military ripping the president commando style from his bed and shipping him out of the country, who appears to be trying to hide something?

Zelaya is alleged to have violated the constitution, and maybe he did, but the man could have been impeached and removed from office in a transparent manner. The way the Honduran establishment went about achieving their goal highlights the fear amongst the powers to be a court case would have revealed their hidden agendas. What gets me is that even if the referendum would have been successful the amendments would not have come into effect until after his regular exit date early next year, which apparently he said he had no intention of overstaying. This is the question he wanted to put on the referendum:

"¿Está usted de acuerdo que en las elecciones generales de noviembre de 2009 se instale una cuarta urna para decidir sobre la convocatoria a una Asamblea Nacional Constituyente que apruebe una nueva Constitución política?" This is roughly translated as "Do you agree to the installation of a fourth ballot [box] during the November 2009 general election to decide about convening a Constitutional National Assembly to approve a new political constitution?"
How people can interpret this phrase as a threat to the constitution is beyond me.

What seems also strange is that Zeyala is accused of violating the constitution, whilst it was possibly the Honduran supreme court which acted outside its powers.

After Congress declared the Sunday referendum illegal last week, Zelaya found himself in a standoff with the country's main institutions. Honduras’ Supreme Court and electoral tribunal also declared the referendum illegal and, when the armed forces refused to distribute the ballots, Zelaya ousted armed forces chief General Romeo Vásquez. Top army officials and the defense minister resigned in protest. The court ordered Vásquez reinstated,...
I can't really say what the constitution states, but maybe some people here fluent in Spanish could confirm this info posted on another blog:
Hi I just wondered if anyone knew by what Constitutional article or law the Supreme Court reinstated the army chief?

According to the LEY CONSTITUTIVA DE LAS FUERZAS ARMADAS of 2001 "El Presidente de la República ejerce el mando directo de las Fuerzas Armadas en su carácter de
Comandante General conforme a la Constitución de la República, la presente Ley y demás leyes

and then:

"SECCIàN II DE LAS ATRIBUCIONES ARTÍCULO 23.- Son atribuciones del Comandante General de las Fuerzas Armadas:...10) Nombrar y remover libremente al Jefe de Estado Mayor

Copied from

Posted by: Juan Moment | Jun 29 2009 14:29 utc | 65

ARTICULO 238.- Para ser Presidente de la República o Designado a la Presidencia, se requiere:

1.Ser hondureño por nacimiento;

H.T. to D.K.

Posted by: D. Mathews | Jun 29 2009 14:46 utc | 66

Juan Moment(@65) The Honduras Constitution has this (relevant) to say:

ARTICULO 245.- El Presidente de la República tiene la administración general del Estado; son sus atribuciones:
16. Ejercer el mando en Jefe de las Fuerzas Armadas en su carácter de Comandante General, y adoptar las medidas necesarias para la defensa de la República;

Very simple translation: The president is the supreme commander of the armed forces (there are a few more passages related to the armed forces - search in page for 'Fuerzas Armadas'; I think the above is the most important).

disclaimer: IANAL, and much less a constitutional scholar ;p.

Posted by: philippe | Jun 29 2009 14:58 utc | 67

so the power is obviously back on in honduras, i take it

Posted by: b real | Jun 29 2009 14:59 utc | 68

Re: term limits.

Consider the cases of uber-capitalist NYC mayors Rudolf Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg.

Both attempted to remove the limits on their terms. Giuliani failed, Bloomberg succeeded.

Posted by: Watson | Jun 29 2009 15:47 utc | 69

telesur is being very thorough on this - luckily there are some balances to the field of lies

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 16:41 utc | 70


i am afraid they can say one thing but do another

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 16:45 utc | 71

D Mathews @66

I would be leery of carrying on with the story that Micheletti Bain was born in Italy. His own bio says he was born in Honduras and that seems like a pretty stupid thing to lie about as it is so easily proved. the link to the Italian site provided merely states that he is of Italian heritage.

on the knucklehead site "the thinking american" or some such there are still people who are convinced Obama was born somewhere other than Hawaii. let those idiots run with crap like this.

Micheletti has the proper heritage to be a US supported Honduran president. Educated in the US and an entrepreneur he is a perfect fit, apparently he has a strong dislike for poor people which is icing on the cake

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 29 2009 18:39 utc | 72

aljazeera on latin america is every bit as reactionary as cnnfoxbbc

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 19:03 utc | 73

greg grandin on democracy now this morning

The Honduran military is effectively a subsidiary of the United States government. Honduras, as a whole, if any Latin American country is fully owned by the United States, it’s Honduras. Its economy is wholly based on trade, foreign aid and remittances. So if the US is opposed to this coup going forward, it won’t go forward. Zelaya will return, if the United States—if Obama and Hillary Clinton are sincere in their statements about returning Zelaya to power.

Clinton says Honduras as "evolved into a coup"

WASHINGTON (AP) — Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Monday the United States believes the unrest in Honduras "has evolved into a coup," but the U.S. is not demanding that deposed President Manuel Zelaya be restored to office.

She also said the military coup has not triggered an automatic cutoff of U.S. aid to Honduras.

Clinton told reporters at the State Department that a delegation from the Organization of American States will be heading to Honduras as early as Tuesday "to begin working with the parties" on the restoration of constitutional order.

She stopped short of saying the Obama administration would demand the return to power of the deposed president, who was forcibly removed from the country on Sunday morning by the Honduran military.

A reporter asked whether the administration would insist that Zelaya be restored to power.

"We haven't laid out any demands that we're insisting on, because we're working with others on behalf of our ultimate objectives, which are shared broadly," Clinton replied.


While stating that circumstances in Honduras had "evolved into a coup," Clinton added that it was a fast-moving situation with an uncertain outcome. "So we are withholding any formal legal determination. But I think the reality is that having expelled the president, we have a lot of work to do to try to help the Hondurans get back on the democratic path that they've been on for a number of years now," Clinton said.

Posted by: b real | Jun 29 2009 19:12 utc | 74

Go Hondouras Go

Posted by: hans | Jun 29 2009 20:11 utc | 75


clearly he is not worthy of respect - you will notice of course that medias have not created 'honduran desks' with the sam facility that they invented 'iran desks'

telesur is now showing mlen & women like him fighting the shock troops who have been trained by the u s

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 20:28 utc | 76

where are the hysteric huffingttonpostdkos - no liveblog no twits - because for them - finally, white skin privilege can not offer its support for the hondurans

the crisis in iran & honduras so close it is revealing, really quite revealing

there exists the same problem though. i thought a general stike was being organised in honduras & i have not heard any more news today on that point

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 20:47 utc | 77

i watched bill ayers kid - in fact the child of political prisoner david gilbert & kathy boudin - chesa has written a book about his 'voyage' throughout latin america - i think it is called gringo - would love to read it

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 20:58 utc | 78

telesur is showing the u s trained troops with the aid of the police carrying out quite violent represssin on the streets of honduras. really, really it is like the days of old when they could do this to a people under the watchful gaze of the ugly americans who were there in every capacity under the sun as long as it served empire & profit

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 21:16 utc | 79

There are complaints here that Obama and Clinton aren't being forceful enough in dictating terms to Honduras. Meanwhile, there are those complaining that Obama is a hypocrite precisely because he has come out with a comment on the same day of the action, citing Obama's tepid initial reaction to Iran.

I have difficulty believing that the Americans could do anything at all without incurring the wrath of most of you. Even the ousted president himself said the Americans had nothing to do with, making the WSJ story about the Americans trying to mediate seem possible.

As to b real's last block quote, I feel like an island in seeing a sliver of hope in an American administration that doesn't explain to countries exactly how their problems will be solved. The switch flip desire for soft Iran action/hard Honduran action is perplexing.

I write because I feel like maybe the posters here are engaging in an ever deepening echo chamber. At the very least, it seems like an appropriate time to reexamine what is "we" would want from an American foreign policy.

Posted by: Ryan | Jun 29 2009 22:18 utc | 80

one of the few sources about what is happening now in honduras - telesur has had their people held in detention by the military

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 22:28 utc | 81

of course, ryan the united states has nothing to do with this situation, general vasquez only trained at the school of americas to learn etiquette, the oligarchs pf hondurs have no ties with certain gentelemen in washington, of course ryan the u s has no geostrategic interest in honduras, the u s did not use honduras as a base against the sandinistas, of course the elites have such a good human rights record, of course ryan john negroponte spent his days & nights in honduras drinking whisky & playing chess

who & what the fuck do you think we are

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 22:33 utc | 82

remembereringgiap, I mean no offense, but I'm not interested in addressing you. I've read here long enough to believe that you are not capable of honest retrospection or genuine debate with an eye towards understanding. If I wanted the kind of debate you offer, I'd just step outside my home here in Texas.

Again, I mean no offense.

Posted by: Ryan | Jun 29 2009 22:44 utc | 83

i am so glad we have so many concerned posters ruminating over the collective soul of MoA.

At the very least, it seems like an appropriate time to reexamine what is "we" would want from an American foreign policy.

maybe what we should do is ask ourselves who is really shaping foreign policy, because i don't think it's all under the control of the new prez.

unfortunately i have nothing to back up my hunch, but if i were to think pessimistically i would have to imagine that anyone trying to shift the imperial direction of this country would run into all sorts of shadowy, scampering cockroaches working to undermine those efforts.

a friend recently described obama as a poker player keeping his cards tight to his chest, in regard to his mostly do-nothing approach on health care reform. of course that friend has a new position in the state democratic party here, so his optimism is predicable, if not a little naieve.

and c'mon, the guy's got a tough position, right? israel let him know before he even got sworn in that they have no qualms about slaughtering innocents, and then, after something like four days, obama scored his first major civilian death toll with a predator strike.

and he's had to smile really big and use all kinds of words while the goal posts inch away from him, but we're americans, and we are now very famous for not paying attention to what is happening, and as long as we can suppress that nagging suspicion that we've been suckered, YET AGAIN, that is exactly what we will do.

thank you, michael jackson.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 29 2009 23:24 utc | 84

as alway lizard, when the bar seems full of trolls - you bring your very human voice & yr very human skeptticism. thank you

it seems today the whole hemisphere including mexico with the exception of the u s & canada have condemned the coup in honduras & all are going to conduct sanction

chavez is on telesur at the conference in nicaragua repeating che's famous cry - 1,2,3, many vietnams - there is something really fragile & beautiful about seeing all those representatives of their people in one room but i have a special affection for evo morales - perhaps the only exemplary leader in this world gone wrong

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 29 2009 23:44 utc | 85

i know carlos fuentes ridicules hugo chavez but this man is no clown. latin america owes him an enormous debt & i think there is no representative of his people who understands more what that really means. in the film on the 2002 coup you can see it in his eyes. he knew it was not the appareil, no matter how sympathetic who saved him, it was the people, his people & he knew it. & still knows it

the grupo de rio has also announced its support for zelaya & has spoken strongly against the coup & will join others in the hemisphere in sanctions

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 30 2009 0:09 utc | 86

school of americas watch

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 30 2009 0:47 utc | 87

zelaya in nicaragua is speaking considerably more agressively towards the united states

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 30 2009 0:54 utc | 88

if you were sincerely an isolationist as you suggest, you would not be so traumatized by MOA.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Jun 30 2009 0:58 utc | 89

I'm not an isolationist, unless one considers anything that isn't Bush style run-and-gun offense isolationist. As for the trauma, I see no value in taking an argument to its lowest common denominator with tiresome, condescending statements like "who & what the fuck do you think we are". I can talk about Amerika with a snarl, and I can bore you with the-world-as-I-see-it history. I don't because I trust that those that come here want a little more.

I'm not a regular poster, but I'm a long time reader. I'm posting because I think the level of discourse has gone to shit since the Iran thing and I'd like a return to the rationality that once made up the majority of the posts.

Oh, and "We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras." --Oblamablam (that's what the petty one says, right?)

Hmmm. Maybe you're right. Maybe it is more fun this way.

Posted by: Ryan | Jun 30 2009 2:39 utc | 90

I mean no are not capable of honest retrospection or genuine debate with an eye towards understanding


don't take it personally or anything since it is a matter of capabilities and the honesty factor!!

Posted by: annie | Jun 30 2009 4:05 utc | 91

It ain't over yet. There is still resistance and clashes on the streets including at least one death and international pressure is building:

WASHINGTON, USA -- The Secretary General of the Organization of American States (OAS), Jose Miguel Insulza, said that the organization “will not accept a return to the past in the continent,” and it will not make any concessions to a regime proclaimed following a military coup after the illegal arrest of the constitutional President of Honduras, Jose Manuel Zelaya.
Secretary General Insulza insisted that the only path opening for the authorities proclaimed on Sunday morning is that of “international isolation.”

OAS rejects concessions to Honduras regime following coup

Posted by: Sam | Jun 30 2009 4:13 utc | 92

talk about double speak #74

A reporter asked whether the administration would insist that Zelaya be restored to power.

"We haven't laid out any demands that we're insisting on, because we're working with others on behalf of our ultimate objectives, which are shared broadly," Clinton replied

so we're sending a delegation "to begin working with the parties" on the restoration of constitutional order, without the president. sweeeeet.

Posted by: annie | Jun 30 2009 4:15 utc | 93

Both attempted to remove the limits on their terms

wasn't he simply trying to propose a referendum to be voted on? what is so radical about a second term?

openly approaching the electorate with a proposal to change the constitution to allow future presidents to run for a second term

if the electorate doesn't want it all they have to do is vote against it.

Posted by: annie | Jun 30 2009 4:31 utc | 94

i notice that coha has pulled their june 26th analysis that i linked to yesterday in the june 28 links thread - Political Reform in President Zelaya’s Honduras. it took a critical stance wrt zelaya's moves, one of the same narratives that has played in the msm. either they're embarrassed by it, or perhaps it has served its purpose?

While some figures, most notably the ousted General Vasquez, have called for citizens to remain calm, Zelaya appears intent on doing the opposite. By pursuing his referendum, which has been declared illegal by the Honduran Supreme Court, and has been heavily criticized by Congress, Zelaya is escalating what could become an extremely volatile situation. More importantly, he is setting a dangerous precedent by completely ignoring or assaulting the other two branches of government.


However, this also could be an attempt on Zelaya’s part to garner support for his position in view of an upcoming emergency meeting of the General Assembly of the Organization of American States, what he considers to be a friendly gesture. By presenting his government as being under attack by right-wing elements who wish to terminate his presidency, Zelaya can divert attention from his own debatable actions.

Zelaya is fanning the flames of his already divided country and making an already tense situation much worse. Realizing that the other branches of government would most likely want to block the referendum, Zelaya apparently decided to resort to street politics, arousing his supporters and creating a situation which could have resulted in bloodshed. However, by closing his mind to the rulebook and not operating within the established legal procedures, he is also giving his opponents the green light to also decide to not play by the rules, behaving in a similarly illegal manner. If he and those opposed to him continue to up the ante, Honduras could find itself embroiled in political violence for the first time in half a century.

Posted by: b real | Jun 30 2009 4:33 utc | 95

coverage @ laura carlsen's blog

al giordano: Reports: Two Military Battalions Turn Against Honduras Coup Regime

Posted by: b real | Jun 30 2009 4:38 utc | 96

a pentagon a flex, accompanied by a diplomatic two-step, with thankfully much less media scrutiny to contend with.

have russian fighters been scrambled yet? how much global clout could Hugo pull into this if his "hard-line" position is called?

any attempt to legitimize this stupid coup by the administration will continue to push sentiment into the bolivarian sphere, but can the administration talk nice and enable beneath the table with honduras? it would take a curious media to bring the pressure, and in that business curiosity is career suicide.

i'm curious, why is it that everything america does at this point makes opposition to its imperial policies stronger?

this may not be an answer to that question (not because it's a stupid question, which is debatable), but i do glimpse an in-country trend that stems from a core-deep uncertainty about our unshakable position in the world, and right now the myth we tell ourselves has never been shakier.

chris matthews mentioned the US role in iran circa 1953 several times during the saturation coverage (and considering the state of our media, a few mentions is sadly significant) and questions about israel's behavior persistently bubble to the surface, like the israeli attack on the USS liberty, despite a massive repression campaign to smother and criminalize any criticism of israel as anti-semitic.

it may not seem like much, but the american mind is very restless and disoriented right now, and if we lost tv for a couple of months, there's no telling what might happen.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 30 2009 4:54 utc | 97

Lordyfuck, these people have no shame.

Y'know, Ryan, i mean no offense, but none of us here have any interest in addressing you. I mean no offense, but you come across as a professional liar out to make trouble, and your opinions seem pretty much bought-and-paid-for.

But it's nothing personal. I mean no offense. It's just that you don't seem like the sort of person who has anything to add to this conversation.

But really -- it's nothing personal.

=== === ===

I'm not surprised how Parviz scarpered at the first dawn of the Honduran troubles.

All that whining and mewling that he dished out over "Can't you people see?? How can you not support this!" As we pointed out, there's nothing we can do or say that would affect one whit the events as they happened in Iran, or the people who were bringing them together.

Now, however: wow. Honduras. This is some place the US media could really make a difference. Massive protests in the streets of the US would really get the attention of the Honduran military. If TIME magazine, CNN, MSNBC, and FOX all came out and focused on that tiny country the way they did Iran, we'd see a reversal of the coup in days.

If senators and representatives came out to pressure the Honduran government to return Zelaya to his office, then there's no question: he'd be returned to office. Making noise and pointing fingers would, in this instance, get results.

Yet we see little coverage of outraged Hondurans. We hear little about the destruction of democracy, or the violent overthrow of a democratic government. Am i wrong about this, or didn't the Obama administration come out against it only after the OAS condemnation? Our Secretary of State says that we "haven't laid out any demands" because "we're working with others on...our ultimate objectives," which are apparently "broadly" shared with the organizers of the coup, but not so much with the President himself, because apparently Obama's not calling fo his re-instatment.

Unrest over a referendum? Y'all probably don't remember it, but over here in Taiwan, last year, there was a huge dispute over a non-binding referendum on "independence". It was widely condemned by regional governments as well as the US.

The referendum was held anyway; the military didn't move to take over the island, nobody demanded the president's ouster, and in the end not enough people voted in it for anyone to even bother counting the votes.

Yet somehow, in Honduras, a referendum has become cause for a military coup; and as this obvious coup unfolds -- with the president hustled out of the country at gunpoint, declaration of martial law, legislators executed in front of their homes, or hustled off to secret prisons -- for some reason the media needs Clinton to come out and say she "believes" the "unrest" has "evolved" into a coup.

I mean, it's nothing personal, Hilary (and CNN, and FOX, and MSNBC, and...), but --

fuck you.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 30 2009 8:06 utc | 98

Showdown in Honduras: The Rise and Uncertain Future of the Coup

Worldwide condemnation has followed the coupthat unseated President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras on Sunday, June 28.Nation-wide mobilizations and a general strike demanding that Zelaya bereturned to power are growing in spite of increased military repression. Oneprotester outside the government palace in Honduras told reporters that ifRoberto Micheletti, the leader installed by the coup, wants to enter thepalace, "he had better do so by air" because if he goes by land"we will stop him." ...

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 30 2009 11:03 utc | 99

Ooooooook. Apparently I went about trying to dodge some people the wrong way. Easy with the interweb slap fight. It's not interesting to anyone.

The general sense here from #93, #98, etc. is that you want a robust and immediate American response.


Posted by: Ryan | Jun 30 2009 16:15 utc | 100

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