Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 17, 2009
Christian Science Monitor’s False Reporting

The Christian Science Monitor is producing a very distorted view on what is happening in Iran. Here I look at two pieces, one manipulated report of a severe incident, one of partisan reporting, to demonstrate that.

Let's start with a story from yesterday: Eyewitness: Iranian militiamen shot 300 rounds during Monday's protest. After two general news paragraphs on Iran it says:

An Iranian journalist who witnessed the shooting told the Monitor that, in fact, the gunmen were plainclothed basiji militia in riot helmets and body armor who fired an estimated 300 bullets from a rooftop – roughly half into the air, and the other half directly into the crowd, over the course of an hour.

"The guy shooting from the roof was very calm, not like he was shooting at people," said the witness. The ideological militiamen, who operate under the auspices of the Revolutionary Guards, fired as if "they were just trying to empty their guns into the ground, very cool, very relaxed."

Now that are very serious accusations and reading only those two graphs the only point one stumbles about is that "plainclothed" is a somewhat curious description of persons with body armor, riot helmets and guns.

The description is followed by thirteen (13) paragraphs around the situation in Iran but without revisiting  the above scene. Only then do we get more detail:

"They shot three people in front of my eyes [on Monday], while everything was going quietly and nicely," the witness told the Monitor. Despite the large numbers at the rally, it was a "silent" event in which there were deliberately few provocative chants.

A very peaceful scene, a silent event,  and the militia just killed people, "very cool, relaxed"  But now:

The witness said another building that served as a basiji base along the route had been surrounded by a human chain and had been presented with flowers. At the basiji base that was attacked, newswire photographs showed a militiaman throwing a stone at protesters over the fence – an act that may have provoked the crowd to attack the building. The building caught on fire and gunmen began shooting from the roof.

"Instead of tear gas, [they] started shooting in the air," said the witness. "That further agitated the people and they kept storming the building. Then they pointed without aiming [holding the assault rifles at hip level] and started to shoot."

Antiriot police wearing body armor and riding motorcycles came to rescue the basiji militiamen, but were knocked from their bikes by the crowd and beaten.

Now this sounds very different to me than the two quote graphs at the beginning of the piece.

Indeed the scene described has been caught on a British Channel 4 video which I urge you to watch and to compare with the CSM account.

A huge mass of people shouting loud, a two story building behind a metal fence, burning with flames coming out of the windows. On the flat roof one man seemingly confused, clearly in uniform, with a helmet and a gun and no body armor or tear gas grenates. Stones are flying towards him. He shots into the air, then rushes to the side (trying to escape?), he comes back and shots into the mass of people. In total some 20 to 30 shots, i.e. one magazine worth of ammunition – not 300 shots, can be heard. One wounded person can be seen getting carried away.

The CSM piece started with militia firing into the crowd without reason. Only at the end of the long piece do we get some of the important context. The building was attacked. From the video we can tell that this attack was serious and that the person an the roof had reason to be panicked.

That does not justify the shooting. I do not want to make excuses here. But the reporting from the CSM and especially the way in which it was written up with accusations upfront and real context at the very end is quite manipulative, i.e. propaganda.

Today the CSM questions the results of the elections in Iran: Was Iran's election rigged? Here's what is known so far.

Results from 39.2 million handwritten ballots came much more swiftly than in previous votes, emerging within hours. Detailed election data typically released has not been made public.

That is a somewhat funny claim. Prof. Walter R. Mebane, Jr. of the University of Michigan (political science and statistics) retrieved official data form Iran at election district level and on June 14th made statistical comparisons with 2005 data. He found (pdf) nothing abnormal, but of course would like even more detailed data at polling station level to confirm that.

Back to the CSM:

Farideh Farhi of the University of Hawaii, whose decades of studying Iran has included poring over data from Iranian elections, says the result was "pulled out of a hat." Here's why.

Ms. Farhi: My personal feeling is that Ahmadinejad could not have gotten anything more than 10 million. And I really do have the data from previous elections, each district, how they voted, each province, to make comparisons with these numbers that the Ministry of Interior have come out.

I am convinced that they just pulled it out of their hats. They certainly didn't pull it out of ballot [boxes] or even stuffed ballots, they just made up numbers and are putting it out. It just doesn't make sense.

I do take the numbers of the Interior Ministry very seriously. I pore over them every election. I did it last time in the parliamentary election, to determine the orientations and what they mean. I always do that.

In this election, I am not even going to spend time on this, because of all the [problems].

Okay. The "Here is why" reason consists of the personal conviction of a someone who does not even want to analyze the data that's available because – well, that's why. But Mrs. Farhi does give us one useful information:

Monitor: Weren't there party monitors at the polling stations, to watch the count?

Farhi: There were party monitors, and the boxes were all counted, and there were records made, and the information was relayed to the Interior Ministry on a piecemeal basis.

But at one point, immediately after the polls were closed, a very few people, without the presence of any monitoring mechanism, started giving out these numbers. And that's why I think this was brazen manipulation.

Now that is really information we were looking for. So the elections were monitored in local voting localities and local tallying but Mrs. Farhi doubts, for whatever reason, the tallying at the top of the reporting chain. With local results monitored a new top-tallying should be easy to do. Why isn't the Mousavi side, including obviously Mrs. Farhi, demanding that?

The first official numbers were given out two to three hours after the election closed, not "immediately after the polls closed", and were based on 20% of the election districts counted. The only one who immediately announced he had won a majority in a four horse race was Mousavi.

Those are two quite bad CSM pieces. One sensationally distorting the truth about a incident that, with some justification, could be seen as self-defense. The other one combined of simply telling the untruth with a interview of a partisan hack totally uninterested in the real issue.

Why again should I trusts such "western" media?

Comments

Meanwhile:(here at home)
Bill Gates To Fund $50 Million Circumcision Campaign

Bill Gates helps fund mass circumcision programme
Microsoft founder Bill Gates last week injected $50 million into a programme to circumcise up to 650,000 men in Swaziland and Zambia.
The goal of the project is to curb the transmission of HIV…

Also see, Male circumcision overstated as prevention tool against AIDS
I wish he’d fund a 50 million dollar campaign to stop female circumcision (infibulation, genital mutilation).

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 17 2009 19:48 utc | 1

Interesting how the second article claim the existence of “secret polls” predicting a Mousavi victory, without bothering to mention the public poll, published in many western media outlets that predicted an even bigger Ahmadineyad victory
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/06/tehran-is-burning-but-who-is-fuelling-the-fires—-based-on-opinion-polls-conducted-a-few-weeks-before-the-election-by-terr.html
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2009/06/reliable-poll-predicted-landslide.html
This poll were also cited recently in The Washington post
Sorry for the crappy linking but I don/t have lotta tome now.

Posted by: Z | Jun 17 2009 20:11 utc | 2

Part of the reason I posted above, is that I’m reminded of a quote in Hitch Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy in that “Presidents don’t have power, their purpose is to draw attention away from it“. Same with media as a tool. If I can get you to answer the wrong questions… and all that.
They call it prop-agenda now.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 17 2009 20:12 utc | 3

That Mebane article is really interesting.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 17 2009 20:15 utc | 4

@Uncle – please keep off-topics to OT or links threats. Thanks!

Posted by: b | Jun 17 2009 20:28 utc | 5

Video of a shooting incident (one of many); note the building that the “plain-clothes armored” is firing from, is not on fire. the fire was at a different building. Also note the Hezbollah logo on the building:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184614595?bctid=26415347001
Statistical Analysis of Election by academic, Signatures of fraud with 99.3% statistical significance:
http://arxiv.org/abs/0906.2789
Evidence Election Fraud according to MoI Head who was fired:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/17/iran-election-turnout-figures

Posted by: o | Jun 17 2009 20:49 utc | 6

I wonder if you’ll post any of these links on your front page, or you’ll continue with your stupid conspiracy theories.

Posted by: o | Jun 17 2009 20:50 utc | 7

Whoa, seems that MoA has earned its own hasbara trooper here!

Posted by: Z | Jun 17 2009 21:11 utc | 8

aljazeera wall to wall cnnisation -‘somene sd’, ‘this cannot be verified – but’, ‘ a person in tehran suggests’ etc etc etc & have had a iranian national endowmlent flunkie every day without mentioning that, a whole series of exiles like chalabi offering their opinion & a complete absence of facts
& it does remind us how this very same media who wanted to turn a provocative & stupid georgian attack into a russian invasion & how this very same media stays completely silent about the daily protests in georgia
the complete absence of real & substantial information a destabilising factor in & of itself

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 17 2009 21:16 utc | 9

o @ 6
The “Statistical Analysis of Election” is written by an astrophysicist, not by an election statistician. The fact that Mr. Roukema has decided to put in his two cents is not exactly compelling as evidence of voter fraud.

Posted by: ensley | Jun 17 2009 21:28 utc | 10

Astrophysicists due to the statistical nature of their observations, and their use of aggregate data from variety of different sources are experts at this sort of analysis. I’d suggest seeing some of his “astrophysics” papers where he attempt to determine find the probabilities of correctness of various theories using disparate observations.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=BF+Roukema&btnG=Search
Also I did an ISI search on him. He has large number of publications and citations and is well respected in his field.

Posted by: o | Jun 17 2009 21:43 utc | 11

More evidence of Fraud:
State newspaper publishes pictures of Ahmadinejad’s rally of millions of supporters:
http://gizmodo.com/5293878/ahmadinejad-lying-again-with-photoshop
If 24 million voted for him, where are they? why does he need to use plain clothes police for supposed fans?
http://i39.tinypic.com/2i1do90.jpg

Posted by: o | Jun 17 2009 21:46 utc | 12

Mebane’s article is worth comparing with a similar analysis that he undertook on the 2006 Mexican election, which yielded fairly strong evidence of fraud (consistent with other lines of evidence). See also this link for further validation of Mebane’s method. For the Iranian election counts to pass his checks for randomness (second-digit Benford distribution), they must have been rigged by a competent statistician. Or they weren’t rigged at all.

Posted by: pmr9 | Jun 17 2009 21:59 utc | 13

o, again, he’s an astrophysicist. Polling science is very different. Lots of academics, myself included, use a great deal of statistical analysis. But I would never presume to say that my knowledge and work are qualified to support accusations of electoral fraud. There is no actual evidence so far that it has occurred (scientists require proof, first and foremost).
What I really want to see are the so-called ‘secret’ polls that were done before the election. Who did these ‘secret’ polls? If they support Mr. Mousavi’s victory claim, why hasn’t he shown them? Why are they still ‘secret?’ If they support election fraud, let’s see them and evaluate them. If you think about it, it really doesn’t make any sense at all that compelling evidence such as pre-election polls is still missing in action, so to speak. And the more you bring them up, o, the more bogus I think the information you have received is. It’s kind of a case of ‘put up or shut up.’ Either they exist and can be produced, or they don’t exist and are just wishful thinking.
I am content to wait and let the Iranian people deal with this matter. As Obama said today, there really isn’t much difference between the two candidates, at least as far as relations with America is concerned.

Posted by: ensley | Jun 17 2009 22:09 utc | 14

ensley,
I am also a scientist, at Caltech. I’ve read both Mebane’s and Roukam’s report. Roukam found problems, Mebane says he needs more information to be sure that there are problems. I’d wager that Roukam was smarter and that’s why he found the problems. I am biased as a physicist, and believe physicists are generally smarter than social scientists, so that’s why one has been more successful than the other.
Either way, these are just issues with a set of numbers.
There are deeper problems with the election results. In particular with missing ballots, 140% of some districts voting, Karroubi receiving less votes than the number of family members he has, the conduct post election of the government, and the recent history of the militarists in Iran.
Regarding secret polls, I know nothing about them. If you find them, great. If you discredit them, great. Either way the evidence of fraud is staggering and widely believed in Iran.

Posted by: o | Jun 17 2009 22:29 utc | 15

Christian science Monitor and Center for Non-violence…take a look at this :
http://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/rscs_csmArticle.shtml
This was back in 2003

Posted by: brian | Jun 17 2009 22:36 utc | 16

I haven’t yet had time to go through Roukema’s paper in detail, but the main problem with it seems to be that he assumes that the first digit frequencies in vote counts should obey Benford’s law. Mebane’s earlier papers explain why this test shouldn’t be used with vote counts, and why second digit frequencies should be used instead. Roukema doesn’t seem to be aware of Mebane’s work even though he is obviously the leading expert in this field.
I’ll try to explain the argument simply. Benford’s law is that if the scaling of numbers is random, the frequencies of first digits are not uniform but proportional to the length of the corresponding interval on a logarithmic scale. An everyday example is at your local hardware store where they sell numerals for front doors: the numerals 1 and 2 sell much faster than 8 and 9. However the size of electoral precincts is not random: precinct boundaries are usually set so that each precinct has about the same number of voters. So we wouldn’t expect Benford’s law to apply to first digits in vote counts. It does seem to work for second digit frequencies (where there is a subtle shift towards higher frequencies for low digits), as smoothing of precinct sizes isn’t enough to influence the distribution of second digits in votes for individual candidates.

Posted by: pmr9 | Jun 17 2009 22:57 utc | 17

o @ 15
Either way the evidence of fraud is staggering and widely believed in Iran.
I agree with this statement, but I also add that Ahmadinejad’s victory is also widely believed to be accurate in Iran. The beliefs of followers of the two candidates does not constitute evidence one way or the other of election fraud.
I am not in the social sciences, although a social scientist would probably be even more qualified to deal with political viewpoints, demographics and human nature, frailty and foibles. I don’t have the answer. All I see is a lack of hard evidence at this point in time. Suspicions are not evidence, protests are not evidence, accusations are not evidence. So far, the only evidence is the actual vote count and the fact that it pretty much matches the only pre-election poll that was taken. All the rest is opinion and innuendo.

Posted by: ensley | Jun 17 2009 23:02 utc | 18

World public opinion is being enlisted to bring about change. Apparently even CSM is not exempt from the campaign.
The moral of the story is that if you’re with Uncle Sam, he won’t say anything about your corrupt elections. If you’re against US, he will bring the pressure of world public opinion to bear on any contested election where it could help US’ favorite, even if he didn’t win it it.
Democracy is a tool for regime change. After that, it’s tyranny as usual.

Posted by: JohnH | Jun 18 2009 0:26 utc | 19

protests today:
http://elections.7rooz.com/link/620/

Posted by: o | Jun 18 2009 1:05 utc | 20

(and they didn’t need to photoshop like A.N.)

Posted by: o | Jun 18 2009 1:07 utc | 21

From the Guardian, UK:
“The man who leaked the real election results from the Interior Ministry – the ones showing Ahmadinejad coming third – was killed in a suspicious car accident, according to unconfirmed reports, writes Saeed Kamali Dehghan in Tehran.
“Mohammad Asgari, who was responsible for the security of the IT network in Iran’s interior ministry, was killed yesterday in Tehran.
“Asgari had reportedly leaked results that showed the elections were rigged by government use of new software to alter the votes from the provinces.
“Asgari was said to have leaked information that showed Mousavi had won almost 19 million votes, and should therefore be president.”

Posted by: Antifa | Jun 18 2009 1:49 utc | 22

More demonisation:
‘From the Guardian, UK:
“The man who leaked the real election results from the Interior Ministry – the ones showing Ahmadinejad coming third – was killed in a suspicious car accident, according to unconfirmed reports, writes Saeed Kamali Dehghan in Tehran.
====================
The media is keener on regime change in Iran than it was in US in 2004, when elections WERE stolen.
What evidence the results he gave are ‘real’? None!

Posted by: brian | Jun 18 2009 2:13 utc | 23

o @ 15:
Either way the evidence of fraud is staggering and widely believed in Iran.
ensley @ 18:
I agree with this statement
And what evidence would that be?
I haven’t seen any “staggering evidence”.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 2:27 utc | 24

Just staggering fools.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 2:27 utc | 25

I am biased as a physicist, and believe physicists are generally smarter than social scientists,
i love the internet.
so that’s why one has been more successful than the other.
oh really.

Posted by: annie | Jun 18 2009 4:42 utc | 26

What evidence the results he gave are ‘real’? None!
What evidence the man who leaked the ‘real’ election results from the Interior Ministry was Mohammad Asgari? None!

Posted by: annie | Jun 18 2009 5:04 utc | 27

“Staggering fools.”
If that’s all you’ve got, sir or ma’am, perhaps you could be gracious and let the grownups talk for a while? If you can do no more than stomp your feet, cluck like a rooster, and spit at everyone every third comment, do you honestly see yourself adding anything to this blog, or even to this conversation?
There’s a whole group of regular MoA commenters who are staying away from this topic because of the partisan-or-paid hacks who simply naysay anything they don’t like. Give it a break, or go earn your fee at DKos.
Please. And sincerely. Hitting people in any way is thuggish behavior.
Once again, it must be stated clearly for those who are demanding crystalline, pure election counts to determine whether, where, and how election fraud occurred — Iran’s votes were not counted this time around. It is normally a one to three day process of counting the paper ballots right in the precinct, right in the presence of observers from all parties. This time, all ballots were seized and removed to government headquarters (the Interior Ministry), even as a landslide for Ahmadi was broadcast, and instantly blessed by Khameni. That’s a coup right there, in any country.
Second, there can now never be an untainted count, as no one can establish or verify the property trail of any or all of these ballots, at any point in this now violated process. Even a complete recount of whatever ballots the Interior Ministry might produce at this point can carry no authority. No one will ever be able to vouch for the count.
Iran is like a war zone now, and one does not demand flawless data, and flawless analysis of same, from a war zone. Demanding such high standards from blog commenters is a cynical and farcical exercise in sophistry. Those demanding an accurate count before considering election fraud at all shall henceforth be asked to produce hardbound proof that Ahmadi won the election before his win will be considered. After all, they have only Ahmadi and Khameni’s statements to go by. No count. No ballots. No proof. It works both ways, fellas.
Third, there is normally a 30-day period following national elections mandated in the Islamic Republic for parties to challenge ballots, demand recounts, etc. This precedes the official blessing of the result by the Grand Ayatollah at month’s end. This Constitutionally mandated period of adjustment and reconciliation was completely abrogated this time. That’s absolutely illegal. It is without any standing in law.
These extreme irregularities alone are enough to outrage any Iranian voter, of any party. Add in the police and military crackdown, beatings and killings, the banning of various telecommunications channels, cutting off electricity to the entire capital city, hunting down Tweeters and bloggers and reporters, and you have all the ingredients necessary for mass demonstrations of public outrage.
It is no more necessary to posit the backing of the CIA, Israel, or any other spook organization for these public demonstrations than it is to posit a Creator for creation. All the ingredients are there for thirty years of smoldering public anger to burst forth.
May I again beg all commenters to not reduce this excellent blog to Big Orange hysteria by kindergarten name calling. A conversation online is an exploration of available information, testing and weighing information as it comes in. Not a flame war from the get go.
To scoff at, or insult or take apart what another person has written is one thing. It is how you point out logical fallacies, unravel inconsistent statements, leaps of faith, show prejudices coming to light. They get to do it right back to the best of their ability. If you’re a grownup, you learn from it, roll with it, and see if you can both get closer to the facts, or closer to a well rounded understanding. You order another round, and tackle the next aspect of the discussion.
But to insult people directly is the worst kind of projection; it is flinging your own poo because you cannot stand to be seen as wrong, or even subject to correction.
Or, you do it because you have to get your way, for money or for satisfaction. As Dylan once said,
“Some people don’t have a lot of food on their table, but they’ve got a lot of knives and forks. An’ they gotta cut sumpin'”

Posted by: Antifa | Jun 18 2009 5:16 utc | 28

Mousavi or Ahmadinejad, it’s not any different than Chalabi or Malaki, or for that matter, Ghani or Karzai. It’s a charade to tickle the people’s labor-numbed nerve ending. The “democratic vote”, … then ‘war hero’ John Kerry leaves town four hours after the last voting booth is sealed, conceding the elections to ‘war hero’ George Bush, making off with ~$25M in campaign funds he gets to keep, and later ‘forgets’ to declare for tax purposes.
You are being conned from the moment you wake up until the moment you collapse.
Fraud did not stop on December 2000 when the Dot.con bubble broke.
Greed did not stop on June 2003 when the Mission Accomplished.con banner flew.
Morbid grand theft did not stop on August 2008 when the Credit.con bubble burst.
Here’s all you need to know.
The June, 2009 shopping list for DoD-OEF-A/P:
Item Est Qty
12.7mm x 108mm Ball 1,800,000
12.7mm x 108mm Tracer 700,000
122mm HE Frag Partial Charge 7,000
14.5 x 114mm Ball 350,000
14.5 x 114mm Tracer 85,000
40mm GRD-40 Smoke 30,000
40mm OG-7V HE/FRAG Grenade 45,500
40mm OG-7V HE/FRAG Grenade 50,000
40mm PG-7VM, HEAT, 70.5mm 11,000
40mm VOG-25 HE Frag 131,340
40mm VOG-25 HE-Frag 80,000
40mm VOG-25P Bounding 64,339
7.62 x 39mm Ball 19,935,500
7.62 x 39mm Ball 10,000,000
7.62 x 39mm Tracer 1,500,000
7.62 x 54mm R Ball 11,689,500
7.62 x 54mm R Ball 28,782,350
7.62 x 54mm R Ball, 7N1 Sniper 2,000,000
7.62 x 54mm R Tracer 4,562,400
7.62 x 54mm R Tracer 4,825,000
7.62x39mm Tracer 5,500,000
73mm HE 13,536
73mm HEAT 23,020
82mm Mortar HE (Complete) 55,000
82mm Mortar Illum (Complete) 24,320
82mm Mortar WP Smoke (Complete) 13,640
Belt, 12.7x108mm (50 Round) 4,000
Links, 12.7x108mm (ea) 100,000
PP3 Squib 600
PP9 Squib 150
PPL Rounds 1,500
Expect the price of copper jackets to soar on Wall Street:
http://siriusbuzz.com/stock-shock.php

Posted by: Pepe le Peu | Jun 18 2009 5:19 utc | 29

annie dear, another thing that doesn’t register with social scientists seems to be my sense of sarcasm.

Posted by: o | Jun 18 2009 5:32 utc | 30

I think there are several underlying reasons why what is happening in Iran is consistently considered by Americans to be fake, despite all of the evidence to the contrary (china_hand2, see Antifa’s post, what evidence *would* convince you?):
1. Superficial understanding of Iranian political system and society due 30 years of anti-Iranian propaganda.
2. Feelings of superiority from thinking that they understand what is “actually” going on and that their government has again fooled millions of poor third world people.
3. Being ashamed of their own recent history and pitiful response they had shown to their election being stolen, and not being able to bear the sight of a population they have little respect for, have the courage to do what Americans should have done at home.

Posted by: o | Jun 18 2009 5:43 utc | 31

o, what americans are you referring to? americans in general, or the ones commenting here?
speaking only for myself, i agree with #1, not so much #2, and in regard to #3, i believe copeland brought that up, and i very much agreed.
americans in general will eat what the media feeds them, but the partisan positioning happening over here, i imagine, has nothing to do with what is actually happening on the ground.
antifa: yeah, it’s gotten a little nasty. thank you, as always, for your perspective.

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 18 2009 6:09 utc | 32

actually the interesting part is whose media it is – I would say it is media linked to the US administration, the conservative media has been much calmer, much more sceptical.
and it seems young journalists believe anything like sheep, the style of the old guard reporting from the Middle East is much different.
and of course it is interesting, what the BBC and Voice of America are saying.
all I am waiting for now is when the inevitable climb down will start and how.

Posted by: outsider | Jun 18 2009 6:09 utc | 33

@antifa,28:
perhaps you could be gracious and let the grownups talk for a while? If you can do no more than stomp your feet, cluck like a rooster, and spit…
Oh! You got me! Please, dear kitty cat — can i have some more?
I think my original comment — the one with substance — was “i have seen no staggering evidence”. The “staggering fools” was directed at no-one in particular, and in the context of a back and forth like Slothrop and r’giap, it was quite tame.
I can only presume that in your case, it hit a little too close to home.
…This time, all ballots were seized….
“Seized” implies that the standard counting procedure was abridged. Where have you seen any hard evidence — even claims — that there were deviations from the standard procedure?
…and removed to government headquarters (the Interior Ministry)….
This is standard procedure; after local counting, they’re taken to the Interior Ministry for tabulation of the total.
Please explain to me how this is remarkable….?
…there can now never be an untainted count, as no one can establish or verify the property trail of any or all of these ballots, at any point in this now violated process. Even a complete recount of whatever ballots the Interior Ministry might produce at this point can carry no authority. No one will ever be able to vouch for the count.
Bullshit.
There are two points where the votes can be verified; each precinct keeps a record of the people who voted in the form of a list, and along with each list there is a collection of receipt-stubs from each vote that was submitted. Thus, for the ministry to verify that the vote was accurate, they’d need only to check the stubs against the total vote count, and then check the list against the total stubs.
Then it would be a matter of reviewing each vote by hand, to make sure the final tally was accurate, and reviewing the list to make sure that there are no mysterious dead Mexicans who have come to life holding Irani id cards.
The Ayatollah has offered to open up this entire process to observation by selected representatives of all three candidates.
If there are frightful irregularities, such a process would easily expose them, thus setting the stage for a new — peaceful, and fair — election. Your assertion that “there can never be an untainted count” is just more hasbara nonsense.
This Constitutionally mandated period of adjustment and reconciliation was completely abrogated this time…..
Uhhhh….how is that?
Aren’t we seeing the votes and results getting challenged? Hasn’t the Ayatollah responded? This just yet another fiction from your overactive imagination, anti.
Once again: I have seen no staggering evidence….

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 6:52 utc | 34

Here’s a primer on the procedures and logistics behind Iran’s election process.
If someone has a better link, i’d love to see it.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 6:54 utc | 35

china_hand2:
More evidence of fraud:
http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/pages/?cid=52170
(fine, I’ll translate this one. You guys should really look into learning Farsi though. It’s a bear minimum for understanding the situation.)
Translation:
Rezai’s [candidate] Letter to Mahsouli [minister of interior]
Why won’t you provide us with statistics of the ballot boxes, after 5 days?

In the name of god (the blue text)
Respected Minister of Interior
Mr. Mahsouli
with Salam
Despite repeated requests over the last days, to you and the president’s office, you have withheld the ballot box statistics. Despite the fact that this is the most basic right of a candidate under election law, I have yet to receive the information.
Considering that this unprecedented delay in providing this information has caused one to suspect rumors of vote tampering and vote “building”, we request the complete release of the ballot box statistics by the current business day. If this is not done, I will have no choice but to request from the honourable Guardian Council to do something other than a recount.
Best Wishes
Mohsen Rezai
What happened? Unlike previous years, they didn’t release the box statistics. (which they must have.. considering they’ve already released the city statistics.)

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 7:13 utc | 36

What happened?
I don’t know. It’ll be interesting to find out.
But Rezai jumps from “Where are the statistics?” to “A recount will be unsatisfactory”, and that’s false logic.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 7:30 utc | 37

The what happened? was a rhetorical question.
This is what happened: They didn’t release the ballot box statistics. Electoral law states all candidates must have access to them. They didn’t release them. No reason was given. Just a stern “no”. This has never happened in the history of the Islamic Republic.
Fraud.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 7:53 utc | 38

china_hand2
I don’t know what you find so mysterious about Rezai’s logic. The vote count becomes more tainted the longer it remains in lockdown, in contravention of law. What is not to understand about that?

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 18 2009 7:53 utc | 39

For annie: We will not go down (Song for Gaza)
Welcome home annie! Rest, then do tell…lol

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 18 2009 7:54 utc | 40

@Copeland:
If you review the electoral procedures that i’ve shown above, then you’ll see that there are safeguards in place to protect against the sort of ballot-stuffing you’re talking about.
In order for the government to falsify the election in the scale some here are claiming is occurring, it would need to fabricate millions, perhaps tens of millions, of purely fictitious votes.
That would involve the work of hundreds, if not thousands of people within the ministry, 24/7, for days upon end, as well as strict secrecy by everyone involved. And even that wouldn’t guarantee that the scheme wouldn’t be discovered.
While it is in the realm of the conceivable, belief in the easy success of a conspiracy of that scale would also imply a willingness to accept that the WTC was blown up in a false-flag operation.
In any event, Rezai’s logic isn’t as you describe. Rezai’s letter, as translated by Amir, is something like:
* We request the complete release of ballot box statistics, and
* If this is not done, a recount is unacceptable.
Except the two are unconnected criteria. If the ballot-box statistics aren’t released, but a recount is done, then what’s the problem? If the statistics are released, then what’s to suggest that the fabricaton — as you describe — hasn’t already taken place anyway? Since — as you’re suggesting — they’re manufacturing votes anyway, what would be the trouble with releasing ‘statistics’ that describe the targeted results?
What Rezai’s issuing, in the letter, is a threat: release the ballot-box statistics, or we quit. I can understand that as a political ploy, and as a bargaining chip, but there is no logical connection between the demand and his ultimatum.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 8:11 utc | 41

@Amir:
The what happened? was a rhetorical question.
It shouldn’t be. It’s a perfectly fitting question to ask.
This is what happened:
Ah. I see. The question wasn’t “rhetorical”; it’s just that you think you’ve already hit upon its answer.
I don’t share your confidence in your conclusions (i.e.: “Fraud”).
I can think of a few reasons why the commission might not have released the statistics: bureaucratic jockeying; as a rebuke to the agitators stirring up the violence; an overworked, fearful ministry; a ministry that, for the most part, has been shut down by protest and riots —
So really, i have no idea what happened. But, as i said: it’ll be interesting to find out.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 8:19 utc | 42

china_hand2:
I’m not sure if I’m getting through to you.. maybe it’s my english

What Rezai’s issuing, in the letter, is a threat: release the ballot-box statistics, or we quit. I can understand that as a political ploy, and as a bargaining chip, but there is no logical connection between the demand and his ultimatum.

If you read my translation carefully, maybe I should have highlighted this, Rezai is saying this:
– election law requires you to tell us the ballot box statistics
– we have been requesting these statistics which you presumably have, since you’ve already released the district results and declared the election ok, for several days now.
– you have not given us these statistics, despite the election law which says it is our right to know, directly after the elections.
– there are rumours of vote building from various sources
– we are going to ask you to release this information by the end of the business day
– if they are also not released today, we will take the rumours of vote building seriously
– in case there has been vote building, we shall ask for a revote as the results will be suspect to us.
The MoI did not release the information.
Reason given:
No.
Literally.
—A.S.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 8:22 utc | 43

china_hand2:

I can think of a few reasons why the commission might not have released the statistics: bureaucratic jockeying; as a rebuke to the agitators stirring up the violence; an overworked, fearful ministry; a ministry that, for the most part, has been shut down by protest and riots —
So really, i have no idea what happened. But, as i said: it’ll be interesting to find out.

Your patience and trust in the completely A.N. appointed Ministry of Intelligence is absolutely incredible. You should seek a position at the AN government.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 8:25 utc | 44

And perhaps i’m not getting through to you:
If there is “vote building” (a phrase i’ve never heard before, so probably Farglish? I think we call it “ballot-stuffing”, or something like that. Anyhow…) going on, then simply releasing the statistics would be an easy thing to manage: one releases the targets towards which one’s operatives are working, and the stuffing-activity continues along happily meeting the now set-in-stone targets.
It’s political posturing by Rezai. I’m curious to see how it plays out.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 8:29 utc | 45

No one has seen staggering evidence that Ahmadi won the election.
No one has seen staggering evidence that Mousavi won the election.
No one will ever see independently verifiable staggering evidence that the election was fraudulent.
No one will ever see independently verifiable I>staggering evidence that the election was honest.
There was no count this time, not as specified in the election rules of the nation.
The trail of evidence was corrupted by not following the specified lawful counting procedures. No lawyer or judge in the world could accept the ballots in their current state as valid. The counting procedures do not permit the illegal seizure and transfer of ballots to the Ministry of the Interior that occurred. The ballots were supposed to be counted at the precinct — and they were not. They were boxed and moved before counting, and a winner announced from the MoI building, all within hours.
But again, we have now seen staggering evidence that there are mules on this and other threads who will not listen to reason, and who set the standard for convincing them of anything at fantasy levels no one can ever satisfy.
Why?
Easy. A ‘mule’ is someone in a blog thread who keeps the conversation stuck at “prove it” and “bullshit” and “neener neener” so the thread becomes all about them.
We could all move on to exploring how and what is going on. There is a lot of fascinating stuff happening in Iran right now, and all some people want to do is stick their egos in the way of exploring any of them. The thread is dead until the mule gets out of the way, or gets her way, or we just walk on.
Who gives a shit whether we convince him or her? What possible benefit is it to anyone to convert a mule practicing at being stubborn?
If b wants to post and encourage theories about a Western-driven Color Revolution happening in Iran, it is his blog. He will catch ridicule for it, which he can hand right back, but no one is going to be able to provide eternal proof of much of anything happening in Iran right now. It is all on fire over there. Not on file, on fire.
If a fireman yells out the window of a burning building that there are still five people up the stairs, a mule is someone who will immediately say, “He can’t prove that.”
MoonofAlabama — shall we explore what is happening in Iran, or shall we play with the mule’s big behind?
Can’t do both.

Posted by: Antifa | Jun 18 2009 8:31 utc | 46

Stratfor has a slightly different take on the letter than you do:
PressTV translates it as:

“Despite frequent requests from my representatives and an official letter to the president [Ahmadinejad], the detailed results of votes have not been released, while it is five days past the election day,….”
Rezaie said that if the results aren’t released by the end of Wednesday, he would make “a request other than just a vote recount,…the unprecedented delay has raised doubts about the possibility of manipulation in the results.

The explicit statements of ballot-stuffing are absent from their version.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 8:37 utc | 47

The trail of evidence was corrupted by not following the specified lawful counting procedures. No lawyer or judge in the world could accept the ballots in their current state as valid.
Where is your proof for these statements?

Posted by: china_hand2 | Jun 18 2009 8:40 utc | 48

china_hand2:
Ok I’m definitely not getting through to you.
If you still honestly believe that Ahmadinejad won fair and square and the election is untainted and the candidates should simply accept the results as correct and democratic, considering everything that has be stated in the last 2 days only on the pages of this blog, then that’s fine. It’s truly a triumph of the human mind that you have accomplished.
I hope other readers will go over the arguments and decide for themselves. I hope they’ll try to understand how they would feel if something similar had happened in their country. In terms of the election fraud, in terms of 700 reformist politicians and journalists being jailed in 4 days, in terms of university dormitories being attacked students being killed, etc.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 8:42 utc | 49

@ #48:
Where is your proof that votes were counted?

Posted by: Antifa | Jun 18 2009 8:47 utc | 50

china_hand2:
My translation is different? really?

Despite frequent requests from my representatives and an official letter to the president [Ahmadinejad], the detailed results of votes have not been released, while it is five days past the election day,…

vs.

Despite repeated requests over the last days, to you and the president’s office, you have withheld the ballot box statistics. Despite the fact that this is the most basic right of a candidate under election law, I have yet to receive the information.

The sentence of interest is:

“The unprecedented delay has raised doubts about the possibility of manipulation in the results.”

The actual farsi is:
ایجاد شایبه عددسازی در صندوق‌ها برای تطبیق با نتایج کلی
Literally:

…Creation of rumours of number-building inside boxes for agreement with total results…

Yeah. PressTV’s a reliable source.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 8:51 utc | 51

Wait a minute, Amir —
you also forgot to prove to China_Hand2 that you speak Farsi.

Posted by: Antifa | Jun 18 2009 8:53 utc | 52

china_hand2:
the last sentence was a joke, in case i didn’t get through to you.
anyway, talking to you is a complete waste of time.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 8:53 utc | 53

Antifa:
Lets just say I’d hate to be any close relative of this guy.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 8:57 utc | 54

Antifa:
Who gives a shit whether we convince him or her? What possible benefit is it to anyone to convert a mule practicing at being stubborn?
You are completely right. I’ll try to control myself. I think the arguments presented here are enough to convince anyone with an open mind that a coup has occurred and the election was a fraud.
It’s just very difficult emotionally for me to get off the phone with Iran (skype through 2kb/s proxy tonight, since international phones were stopped this morning), and hear what is happening, what my cousin in the hospital has seen in terms of spinal cord injuries and dead men and women, or that my aunt has had tear gas thrown in through her windows, etc. and then come here and see someone basically throw constant doubt on the first true democratic movement my country has seen in the last 30 years, with some ridiculous conspiracy theories.
So I debunk them. One after the other. days after day. But some people are just unconvincable, mules as you call them. (a farsi proverb “a donkey with his ass in the dirt”).
I just hope what i’ve written here will be useful for others who want to understand the situation, and not just fashionable and shallow conspiracy theories.
The situation in Iran right now is very interesting and very unpredictable and an nice debate on where it could would be good.
—A.S.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 9:12 utc | 55

Mark LeVine history professor at UC/Irvine has an
excellent essay up at alJazeera commenting on the choices facing the ancien regime in Tehran right now.
Of course, the professor allows for election fraud in his essay, so he’s a “staggering fool” who will have to spend several days here proving he can speak Arabic, Turkish, and Persian, and ultimate proof of fraud before China_Hand2 will let anyone discuss anything else.
Anyway, for those interested in moving on, and leaving the ‘mule’ where he is, the article covers the differences between China’s popular unrest and Iran’s. Very insightful.

Posted by: Antifa | Jun 18 2009 9:20 utc | 56

china_hand2 @24
@18 I meant to clip that statement to read “Either way …. fraud is widely believed in Iran.” That is why I went on to say the election results are also widely believed and there is no evidence to date of fraud.
See what happens when you are in hurry…

Posted by: ensley | Jun 18 2009 13:28 utc | 57

If Rafsanjani and Musavi are not ancien regime I wonder what or who the hell do they are. Foreign agents? Little Green Men from Mars? Even Khatami reformist or not was and is part of the regime. Same go for the other candidates. Or they wouldn’t have even been in the ballout.
BTW I read that some newspaper in Iran (obviously one favouring the current government) has reported secret meetings between Khatami and a foreign security agency. So it’s likely that the blaming on external forces and internal collaborators may start to gain traction. Of course it isn’t going to affect the followers of Musavi. But it may increase the level of confrontation and division of the iranian civil society.
Antifa, many here are neither discarding nor accepting the massive fraud allegations at face value. External intervention even if not coordinated with internal elements can’t be any longer discarded given the current evidence. There is an obvious and widespread propaganda campaign in the western media. From the start there has been conflicting information from outside and inside Iran that allows any plausible interpretation of what is happening. And I see at least four to half a dozen of possible scenarios that could be possible. Any of us will by our own nature and experiences choose one or another or give higher probabilities to one or another.
But the way some posters (some popping out of who the hell knows where … and some may have some suspicions about where they come) are treating anyone that doesn’t takes their version or scenario as the only one possible and single perfect truth in this universe isn’t acceptable. But keep calling names, shouting your emotion filled diatribes and ignore any evidence that doesn’t go with your theory. That for sure will improve your credibility.
My current take, which hasn’t changed much since the start are: 60% probability of fraud, 80% probability that the real results were for a runoff between Musavi and Ahmadinejad, so Khamenei, who is the true force behind all this (I give like a 10% to Ahmadinejad starting the whole thing and bypassing Khamenei and surviving a single minute after that), got scared about something or didn’t want to give the Rafsanjani/Musavi/Khatami alliance a single milimeter of terrain (may be reacting to early Musavi attempt of calling a victory or knowledge about after election disturbances planes). A 80% possibility that the ‘where is my vote’ campaign was preplanned, 70% for previous foreign intervention, assistance or agreement for future ‘collaboration’. That includes Obama emotion filled (zero facts and full of half lies) generation of hot air a previous week in Cairo. Violence and cracking on opposing forces from a repressive regime (what was, is and will likely remain Iran) and confrontation with those opposing forces is expected and natural with the current scenario. Doesn’t proves or disproves fraud in my opinion. Something like this would have produced violent reactions even in Sweeden. In fact if the current number of official deads is to be believed everyone here has been quite moderated including the ‘government goons’. It could be already much worse. There is so many groups that would be interested in staging provocations.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 18 2009 13:40 utc | 58

This could be on the Onion. A factsheet about Iran published on a spanish newspaper lists Rafsanjani as a reformist. Sure, the second most powerful figure in the regime wants to reform the regime … to become the single most powerful figure in the regime. Horay! Reforms! What’s your take? Bush or Cheney? Palin or McCain? Coke or Pepsi?

Posted by: ThePaper | Jun 18 2009 13:50 utc | 59

from antifa’s 56 link

It seems that the Iranian elite has been caught similarly off-guard, and is still trying to read its own society to understand how broad is the societal discontent reflected in the mass protests.
This calculus is crucial – in some ways more so than whether the results are legitimate or, as some claim, electoral fraud.

Of course, the professor allows for election fraud in his essay, so he’s a “staggering fool”
i could just as easily say Of course, the professor allows for a legitimate election in his essay, so he’s a “stubborn mule”. your 46 is just an ad hominem. it works both ways. nobody can prove anything at this point but anyone not ascribing to your position is a mule? lets just skip over their stubborn ptv’s an proceed discussing how fraud occurred even tho we admit we can’t prove it did. what kind of logic is this?
i’m all for dropping the righteousness and discussing the rumors. however i cannot in my wildest dreams imagine all the players from one side are chrystalline clearly telling the truth.
amir s:
It’s just very difficult emotionally for me to get off the phone with Iran (skype through 2kb/s proxy tonight, since international phones were stopped this morning), and hear what is happening, what my cousin in the hospital has seen in terms of spinal cord injuries and dead men and women, or that my aunt has had tear gas thrown in through her windows, etc. and then come here and see someone basically throw constant doubt on the first true democratic movement my country has seen in the last 30 years, with some ridiculous conspiracy theories.
sorry, but this begs the question, what are you doing here? how did you find this place in your time of anguish?? are you a regular in disguise or you heard about your aunt and cousin w/the spinal cord injury and started googling around to take your angst out on some unbeliever? do tell.

Posted by: annie | Jun 18 2009 14:28 utc | 60

Annie, you’re joining the debate a bit late and I’ve already to explain my position/background/how I found this blog. You can find this information along with a deeper analysis of what is happening in my previous posts.
( clicked a link through phil weiss’s blog)
Sorry I can’t post more complete response l right now, using a mobile device.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 17:41 utc | 61

Electoral fraud cannot be proved by statistics, because society does not accept such proof, and requires evidence of no or shoddy or whatever counting, of shredding or throwing out ballots, of dead ppl voting, fake ballots, of tampering with computers, corrupt officials, and so on. At best, statistical analysis leads to suspicion and uncertainty, can lead to re-counts (very rare), but not more. That is quite normal.
That is why, *in part*, the G W Bush 1 election was never contested with success.
An extreme case might be: small district one voted 98 % for candidate one, the small district two voted 48% for candidate two, and so on for may districts, with the same nos, and thus candidate one winning with a staggering majority. These numbers could never ever be the result of real voters, and even a 10 year-old would grasp that. Lacking proof of tampering, however, there is nothing to be done. Demographics, the laws of probability, previous polls, etc. do not form part of the law. There is either proven illegal or criminal activity, or not.
Just saying, in general.
This time, all ballots were seized and removed to government headquarters (the Interior Ministry), even as a landslide for Ahmadi was broadcast, and instantly blessed by Khameni. That’s a coup right there, in any country.
If true, good enough to overturn the election (in ideal circumstances, etc.)
But why shouldn’t the ppl of Iran protest after fair elections? (Not that I am saying they were fair or not.) Why is that inconceivable?

Posted by: Tangerine | Jun 18 2009 17:44 utc | 62

It’s amazing how little respect actual Iranians who understand the situation and try their best to share their understanding get. Makes me thing o is correct.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 17:45 utc | 63

Also, please remove the claim that he (mebane) found nothing abnormal. He has updated the document claiming significant abnormalities. I wonder if this update will make it to the front page or only cookoo conspiracy theories are good for b.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 17:48 utc | 64

amir, stop accusing b of cookoo conspiracy theories. this is his blog, and you are being an asshole. you aren’t getting respect? gee, wonder why.
besides, don’t you have more important things to be doing right now than trying to persuade a bunch of folks who hang out at a virtual whiskey bar that your interpretation of what’s happening in your country is the only valid interpretation? why does it matter what we think anyway? this whole situation seems, more and more, to be about perception, not technicalities about the iranian voting process. if it was just about the votes, that’s where your energy should be invested. again, why do our opinions matter so much to you?

Posted by: Lizard | Jun 18 2009 18:03 utc | 65

You’re right. I don’t know why I try to convince you people. I think it started with a few posts which I thought would clear things up, but were ignored and it went from there. Sunk cost.
Bye then.

Posted by: Amir S. | Jun 18 2009 18:28 utc | 66

@63 – It’s amazing how little respect actual Iranians who understand the situation and try their best to share their understanding get. Makes me thing o is correct.
[deleted by request for privacy reason – b.]

This time, all ballots were seized and removed to government headquarters (the Interior Ministry)
Antifa as quote by Tangerine.
I wonder what is the source for that (and no, twitter doesn’t count). It would likely take days to bring all ballots to Tehran.

Posted by: b | Jun 18 2009 18:38 utc | 67

amir
unfortunately, your post did nothing to clear things up but rather added to the noise – that is being replayed over & over again in alll the western media including aljazeera
the more complex narratives of interelite struggle using the people, the context of the state of siege in which iran has been placed, a number of procedures which are right out of the national endowment of democracy handbook, the twitter ‘revolution well within mossads known work in communications
lenin always sd hold the military & the beuracracy – i though ahmadinejad’s forces did control these but that is not so clear & it would seem all the forces or rafsanjani have played their cards well – they are using the people to protect their interests – but as yet the urban & peasant formations have not come into play – & in even the most moussavite propaganda – there is little talk of these people – except the hint that they are parasites

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 18 2009 18:44 utc | 68

Speaking for myself, I don’t want Amir or Antifa to stop posting here, since they are among a handful who have a direct connection to family and friends in Iran. Their contribution here is valuable and it makes no sense to drive them away with insults or by questioning their motives. We need to keep channels open. Antifa’s link to the essay @ 56 was well worth reading. Calling people “mules” or “staggering fools” will not do much to advance dialog around here. I myself got upset at Amir for posting a link in his language, but it was a little childish of me. Let’s take a deep breath and keep the lines of communication open.

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 18 2009 18:57 utc | 69

I read levin’s article provided by Antifa and this caught my eye:
Indeed, this election might well have released a host of pent-up forces – desperate hope for change, smouldering resentment at the vast inequalities plaguing Iran, utter disdain for the other side’s core cultural identity
So I decided to investigate the vast iequalities he speaks of.
I went here http://hdrstats.undp.org/indicators/ This is a UN website on human development. They publish the human development report.
Share of income/consumption by the poorest 20% in Iran is 5.1%, in the US it is 5.4%. Does not sound so VASTLY different. Share of income/consumption by the poorest 10%: Iran=2.0% vs. the US=1.9%. OOPS, the prof needs to brush up on his data.
Let us keep going.
Share of income/consumption by the richest 10%. The US=29.9% vs Iran=33.7%. for the richest 20% US=45.8% vs Iran=49.9%. Here there are differences but there is no VAST difference
Let us look at the Gini index which measures inequality in wealth and income and varies between 0 (perfect equality) and 100 (perfect inequality). US=40.8 and Iran=43.0
So Iran’s inequality is about the same as that of the US.
Well maybe there is iequity in education, then. Well let us see how much as a % of GDP does the IRI spend. Iran=4.7%, the US 5.9%. But Iran spends as much or more on education than Australia, Japan, Spain, Luxembourg, Germany, Greece and all of these are considered developed countries.
This is the problem with professors. They just want to wip out an article w/o even checking for basic data.
As pointed by Giap, the struggle in Iran is an inter-ruling class struggle and the masses (whether middle class or working class) are taken along for the ride. Once the ruling class re-concile (maybe give a big role for Mousavi in the new govt or give Rafsanjani a share in the spoils from the oil ministry) either the demonstrations will stop or the now united elites will crack down hard on the demonstrators.

Posted by: ndahi | Jun 19 2009 1:37 utc | 70

nor do i copeland
but i was hit as if by a bullet by a previous post of ndahi in response to slothrop – which hinted at the reasons why the liberal bourgeoisie always support these ideated notions pf freedom & equality etc but are in practical terms completely unmoved by the mass slaughter of the people of iraq, afghanistan & pakistan – but especially that of the occupied territories – & it is only now that israel is led by visible psychopaths that they start to give a practical hand
there are of course people from all countries opposed to this prejudice but in the last ten years it has been a slaughterhouse largely because the monsters were not practically opposed

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 19 2009 1:49 utc | 71

“Now that are very serious accusations and reading only those two graphs the only point one stumbles about is that “plainclothed” is a somewhat curious description of persons with body armor, riot helmets and guns.”
Perhaps. But “plainclothed” seems to be a pretty apt description of this crowd of men beating the shit out of a woman with batons.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=db9_1245366851

Posted by: scarshapedstar | Jun 19 2009 7:31 utc | 72