Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 17, 2009
Links May 17 09
  • Frank Rich on the need for torture investigation – Obama Can’t Turn the Page on Bush – (NYT)
  • Ahmed Rashid – Pakistan on the Brink – (NYRB)
  • Tony Karon – The Writing on the Wall for Obama’s ‘Af-Pak’ Vietnam – (Rootless Cosmopolitan)
  • Not mentioned in U.S. news – US drone attack kills 29 in North Waziristan – (Dawn)
  • Good piece, but too much ‘middle of the road’ – Obama and the Middle East – (NYRB)
  • Mearsheimer – Saving Israel From Itself – (American Conservative)
  • Israeli Tourism Adverts Wipe Palestine From the Map – (Palestine Campaign)
  • Tea, coffee, sausages are also verboten – Israel bans books, music and clothes from entering Gaza – (Haaretz)

Please add your links, views and news in the comments.

Comments

Make up your mind, man (actually, I’m afraid they already did…).
As usual…

Posted by: andrew | May 17 2009 9:02 utc | 1

Interesting NYT (The Atlantic) Op-Ed by Jeffrey Goldberg on the chances that Israel will attack Iran:

Israel’s Fears, Amalek’s Arsenal

Posted by: Parviz | May 17 2009 10:32 utc | 2

b, please check your email for a lengthy message I tried repeatedly and in vain to post earlier. Thanks.

Posted by: Parviz | May 17 2009 10:34 utc | 3

[comment by Parviz via email – b.]
The recent MoA threads and links on Israel are pretty enlightening. Obama’s deeds don’t match his words. Let’s evaluate Obama’s report card based on his promise of ‘change’ (and I’m lifting some of the facts stated below from various MoA links and threads):
1. The new U.S. Administration has just freed two AIPAC/Israeli spies caught red-handed passing on Pentagon secrets to Israel. Yes, Obama personally prohibited their prosecution.
2. No new U.S. Administration leader has acknowledged the proven fact (confirmed by Haaretz, Uri Avnery and many independent sources and organizations) that Israel purposely broke the most recent cease-fire in order to stoke the fires of conflict as an excuse to perpetrate its horrific war crimes in Gaza.
3. No current U.S. Administration leader has condemned Israel for clear violations of the U.N. prohibition on the use of WMD in heavily populated civilian areas.
4. No current U.S. Administration leader has reprimanded Israel for prohibiting the import of canned goods, plastic sheeting, toys and books into Gaza!
5. No current U.S. Administration leader has protested Israel’s segregation of its own Arabs: In Israel proper and in Jerusalem, schools and housing are segregated. Far more is spent on Jewish students than on Palestinian students. Roads have been built in the West Bank that only Jews are allowed to drive on. Israelis, both Palestinian and Jewish, are not allowed to bring their Arab spouses to live with them if the spouses come from the West Bank, Gaza, or most Arab states. Arabs are prohibited from purchasing property in certain Jewish neighbourhoods. = Clear racism and mockery of human rights.
(Where is Obama’s ‘principled outrage’ which he uses to such good effect when criticizing Hezbullah, Hamas and Iran?)
6. No U.S. leader has condemned Lieberman for attempting to prohibit the annual commemoration of the forced Exodus of 725,000 Palestinian refugees in 1948 (during which 394 out of 475 Palestinian villages were eradicated), or go up in flames over Lieberman’s demand that all Israeli-Arabs swear allegiance solely to the State of Israel AND serve compulsorily in the Israeli armed forces or face revocation of citizenship and expulsion (meaning they should henceforth participate directly in future Israeli atrocities against their Arab/Muslim brethren).
7. Obama has not only refused to overturn the racist “Global Anti-Semitism Review Act”, which defines criticism of Israel or Israeli leaders as acts of ‘anti-Semitism’, but has actually permitted a Rahm Emanuel-inspired extension of that Law.
8. Israeli expansionism and settlement continue unimpeded: Just a couple of weeks ago Israel began a new housing offensive. Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat’s office proudly announced that construction had begun on new Jewish housing in the midst of Palestinian neighbourhoods in Jerusalem. Some ‘principled’ U.S. politicians have demanded a ‘freeze on housing’? What a sick joke! By the time anyone gets round to listening the ‘freeze’ will be meaningless because the Israelis will have occupied even more Palestinian territory and are rabidly expanding in order to ‘freeze’ at an even higher level.
I could go on all day. I don’t give a hoot what Obama says. His flowery words may fool gullible U.S. citizens (MoAers excepted), but not people in this part of the world. I’m not interested in what he says but what he does. If he hasn’t raised even a single minor objection to all the atrocities described above (and, believe me, there are thousands more), how can he hope to ‘change’ injustices when he isn’t prepared even to acknowledge their existence? Israeli extremists are going to have a field day accelerating their land grab while hiding behind Obama’s reassuring promise of ‘change’.
As for Iran, I won’t even start, as Obama’s actions have been even more contradictory to his words than in the case of Israel/Palestine.
All in all, these are extremely depressing developments.
[end comment by Parviz via email]

Posted by: b | May 17 2009 12:13 utc | 4

Mearsheimer’s overview of the US/Israel tangle is useful, thoughtful and moderately expressed. He sides with the “two-state solution” even though many Palestinians now see that as a trap — a formalization of the current bantustan statelets. Where Debs argues for a right-wing uprising against AIPAC, Mearsheimer says the main hope is if American Jews finally realize current policies will lead to Israel’s self-destruction.

Posted by: senecal | May 17 2009 14:40 utc | 5

Parviz, weren’t you recently excoriating certain MoAers for being just too darned negative and cynical about Obomba?

Posted by: ran | May 17 2009 14:53 utc | 6

ran, you’re dead right, but there’s no discrepancy here: I fully support his economic policies but condemn his foreign policies especially vis-a-vis the Middle East.

Posted by: Parviz | May 17 2009 15:01 utc | 7

dan of steel visited me here in my old town
thank you, it did good for my battered soul

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 17 2009 15:16 utc | 8

I fully support his economic policies
Yes, he has quite an aesthetic eye. The new arrangement of deck chairs on this sinking ship is quite impressive. There’s something to be said for going down in style.

Posted by: Obamageddon | May 17 2009 15:28 utc | 9

dan of steel visited me here in my old town
!!!!
wow

Posted by: annie | May 17 2009 15:42 utc | 10

b, sorry, I don’t seem to be able to post anything bigger than one paragraph. Please check your emails. Thanks.

Posted by: Parviz | May 17 2009 16:26 utc | 11

[comment by Parviz via email]
Obamageddon, I knew somebody would roll up with such a cute one-liner. Let me give you the facts:
Yes, the ship is sinking, he’s plugging the holes in order to save the ship and haul it to dry dock. First things first.
But many impatient Barflies expect him to transform the sinking ship into a gleaming ocean liner while still at sea and totally ignore the huge gashes that threaten to sink it. You guys/gals think Obama can single-handedly transform the corrupt U.S. Capitalist system slap bang in the middle of the worst economic meltdown in history (at least, it would have been if he hadn’t moved to plug the holes).
If Obama had been able to save the economy, transform a century of laissez-faire capitalism in 100 days, put ALL the corrupt CEOs in jail, allow all the technically bankrupt firms (the banks, AIG, GM, Chrysler) to actually go bankrupt, forestall all foreclosures and simultaneously keep the unemployment rate at 7 %, then, yes, I would believe that Jesus Christ did indeed walk on water.
Some of you guys live in a cuckoo fairytale land that bears no relation to what is humanly achievable in the real world. Not even one, two or even 3 Obamas could shut down inept corporations, narrow the wealth gap, eliminate obscene bonuses, de-fang Wall Street, persuade Americans to save, expand the U.S. manufacturing base that has shrunk 60 % since the end of WWII, increase employment and real wages, tame potential inflation, pay back the $ 3 trillion (and rising) foreign debt, impose a sensible additional 50 cent/gallon gasoline tax, make the nation environmentally responsible, muzzle the NRA and the pharma lobbies, bring all the troops home, etc.,. etc.,.
I’d like to see just one of you critics in Obama’s shoes today. I’d laugh my head off while you blundered around creating the economic conditions for another civil war. Maybe that’s what some of you want.
However, I stand by my criticism of Obama’s foreign policy, which I believe is leading to a Middle East disaster of Draconian proportions.
[end of comment by Parviz via email]

Posted by: b | May 17 2009 17:41 utc | 12

@ Parviz and cuckoo fairytale land: Demeaning those that hold a different opinion than you does nothing to enhance your point of view. First some people don’t believe that borrowing more money in the midst of a debt crisis and shovelling taxpayer dollars into the coffers of those that created it are good economic policies. Putting a smiley face on the same policy is not change.
Second you should reread Lysander’s post #36 on the last thread because it clearly doesn’t square with your’s # 4 above. You talk as if Isreal is instigating all this and the US is just turning a blind eye. The blockade of Gaza was legislated in Congress on a bipartisan basis after the millions of dollars of bribe money in Palestine failed to elect the US preffered government. It is not the Israeli Prime Minister making a speech in Congress declaring Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are terrorists and must be defeated it is the President of the US making that speech on the floor of the Knesset. Israel is enforcing US policy not the other way around.
It doesn’t matter what country Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Venezuela, I could go on and the same condition reappears. The US cannot continue its World dominance unless it wins influence over these countries and directs money to those that cooperate to fight against those that don’t. Musharof was on CNN today and put it bluntly to Fareed Zakaria that Pakistan arrested all the Al Queda leaders and challenged him to name one that the US arrestted. This is a battle between those that want to kiss American ass and those that want to kick American ass. Nobody would want to lose an empire and that includes Obama and is the reason why he is trying to maintain the status quo.

Posted by: Sam | May 17 2009 19:25 utc | 13

Israel is enforcing US policy not the other way around.
when it comes to israel, israel drives the policy. aipac doesn’t take their orders from washington.

Posted by: annie | May 17 2009 20:11 utc | 14

Sam, we’ll just have to beg to differ on the economy, because I see no alternative to saving the banks and then, and only then, instigating meaningful reform, doing a post mortem and punishing those who caused the mess. What most of you suggest is exactly the reverse, which would have been totally impractical.
As for your other point, I actually praised Lysander’s political assessment of the M.E.. And I don’t understand what you mean by “You talk as if Isreal is instigating all this and the US is just turning a blind eye. The blockade of Gaza was legislated in Congress on a bipartisan basis”, when Congress invariably dances to Israel’s tune in proverbial ‘wag the dog’ fashion. So you really believe Congress takes the lead on Israel policy? If so I have a bridge in London I’d like to sell you.

Posted by: Parviz | May 17 2009 20:18 utc | 15

sam, Second you should reread Lysander’s post #36 on the last thread because it clearly doesn’t square with your’s # 4 above.
i would appreciate you substantiating your assertions w/some more specifics. parvis included lots of infor (as did Lysander’s post #36. what are you asserting? excerpt from Lysander:
AIPAC is very powerful. The media’s tendency to follow its talking points is strong.I do not underestimate that. AIPAC can get America to walk to the edge of the cliff. But it can’t make them take the final step. And with each step closer, as the cliff’s edge comes into view, the louder the voices of the Brzezinskis, the Howard Bakers and the Anthony Zinis become.
israel is making every effort to drive this policy, notorious for pressuring congressmembers. i’m not asserting our congressmembers shouldn’t take full responsibility for their actions/votes, but as the aipac letter demonstrates, israel drives the policy wrt its future.

Posted by: annie | May 17 2009 20:19 utc | 16

Thank you, annie.

Posted by: Parviz | May 17 2009 20:19 utc | 17

The blockade of Gaza was legislated in Congress
are you asserting the origin of the plan to blockade gaza came from the US congress? or was the legislation to affirm israels agenda?
after the millions of dollars of bribe money in Palestine failed to elect the US preffered government.
nary a word about the israeli preferred governemnt? besides i don’t know that for sure. for all i know IS/US was hankering for a hamas led government as a pretext for justifying all the inhumane tricks it had in store for the palestinians. the MO was always to get a civil war going in the pal territory. we funded their friggin fatah/hamas scism. the point being to have fatah line up w/israel.

Posted by: annie | May 17 2009 20:26 utc | 18

parviz, the way you denigrate O’s critics here is tiring.
But many impatient Barflies expect him to transform the sinking ship into a gleaming ocean liner while still at sea and totally ignore the huge gashes that threaten to sink it
that’s bullshit. critics like myself were just trying to tell deluded hopium-smokers like waldo that their expectations were unrealistic.
You guys/gals think Obama can single-handedly transform the corrupt U.S. Capitalist system slap bang in the middle of the worst economic meltdown in history
more bullshit. critics like myself were making the case that the election of one man, no matter how “historic”, wouldn’t make the systemic rot magically go away like some of the hopium-smokers thought.
it is you, parviz, living in cuckoo fairytale land, if you think the economic crisis has been averted by dumping trillions into ponzi banks. it has not. the immediate crisis has been kicked down the road. half-ass measures, like attempting to regulate derivatives will mean nothing if millions of people are still losing homes and jobs and health insurance.
I’d like to see just one of you critics in Obama’s shoes today. I’d laugh my head off while you blundered around creating the economic conditions for another civil war. Maybe that’s what some of you want.
you’ve moved beyond bullshit here to incendiary asshole mode. when rage boils over it will be regular people caught up in the violence, and no one wants that. to imply otherwise is terribly ignorant.
parviz, you need to just make your comments without stereotyping an entire swath of opinions voiced here. Obama has made so many disappointing moves in his first 100 days i don’t even want to see a list; it’s too depressing.
the only thing that makes me optimistic is healthcare reform, because there is a flash of lucidity happening that won’t be easily quelled. the injustice of 50 million uninsured, and the obscene greed of for-profit health insurers and pharmaceutical companies might just be the crack in the wall we need.
ultimately Obama will have little to do with any substantial change that occurs, if it occurs. fuck trickle down shifts and half measures. we need a bipartisan groundswell of constructive populist anger focused on creating tangible changes that benefit actual people.
the alternative is letting banksters, captains of industry, and political sociopaths squeeze the taxpayer base dry while the military/industrial outfits continue to terrorize the rest of the world. if that doesn’t change, we’re all fucked.

Posted by: Lizard | May 17 2009 20:28 utc | 19

Parviz:
Sam, we’ll just have to beg to differ on the economy, because I see no alternative to saving the banks and then, and only then, instigating meaningful reform, doing a post mortem and punishing those who caused the mess. What most of you suggest is exactly the reverse, which would have been totally impractical.
This is a bankster insider talking-point. No bank needs to be saved. The banking system needs to be rescued from the zombie banks. The Fed and Treasury can do (and for all practical purposes are facilitating) all the credit intermediation the economy needs.
Regarding the sequential priority that banksters tout — first we need to save the banks and then we can worry about the economy/american people — this interview with Elizabeth Warren (Chair of the TARP Oversight panel) nicely highlights the limitations of feeding 100s of billions of $ to the banks while families cannot make their mortgage payments or pay their credit card bills.
Obama could have shown that he was serious about fighting this crisis by NOT appointing Geithner and Summers, arguably the two men most culpable in this fiasco. I’ll believe that we are serious about solving this crisis when banksters are not formulating treasury policy.

Posted by: SimplyLurking | May 17 2009 21:20 utc | 20

Here’s the link to the Elizabeth Warren interview

Posted by: SimplyLurking | May 17 2009 21:24 utc | 21

@ annie – AIPAC is an American organization not an Israeli organization. The US GDP is about 75 times that of Israel. The US population is about 100 times that of Israel. US military spending is over 100 times that of Israel, not to mention Israel’s military is subsidized by the US. But you want to believe that Israel tells the US what to do? You can believe that the mouse tells the elephant what to do if you want to, I don’t. Blaming Israel is very popular in the US. We would never do such things Israel is forcing us?
I did provide specifics just reread my post. Here’s some more: who supplies the bombs for Irael to attack its Arab neighbors? Who supplies the money for Israel to expand its settlements? who encourages Israel to dismiss peace accords or snub UN resolutions? who forced Israel to have an election against their wishes?

Posted by: Sam | May 17 2009 21:25 utc | 22

AIPAC is an American organization not an Israeli organization
that’s where it gets all confusing. of course the US is the big partner in this arrangement but that certainly doesn’t mean it is calling the shots. furthermore it is not clear who the US is in this case, is it the majority of its citizens or is it a small group of very influencial elites?
we don’t even want to begin to discuss the issue of dual citizens or the fact that one of those dual citizens is the chief of staff in the white house.
it is ludicrous to play the part of the victim even now.

Posted by: dan of steele | May 17 2009 21:54 utc | 23

@20,
in which case, most if not all of the upper echelon of the USA’s banking & financial system would have gone down. And then theres the ripple effect thats going to run through the entire economy.
one thing thats clear is that it would have taken the tarnish (perhaps irreversibly) off the USA’s vantage as the leader of the capitalist world. Likewise for the dollar. And I’m not sure you can put a price on that.
there should be no hesitation about allowing banks to fail in a well-regulated environment where the damage caused by any single bank would be much more localized.. But thats not what we are talking about here.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | May 17 2009 22:13 utc | 24

rueters

WASHINGTON, Oct. 27, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — Papers kept secret for 43 years
show that the US Department of Justice attempted to register the parent
organization of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, or AIPAC, as the
foreign agent of Israel.

Such a registration could have changed the course of Middle East history by
giving the president, State Department and American public more insight and
leverage over the Israel lobby during peace negotiations to compensate
displaced Palestinians and avert Israel’s covert development of nuclear
weapons.
The 1962 Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) order was approved by Attorney
General Robert F. Kennedy (RFK) and senior officials. The DOJ found the
American Zionist Council had received the equivalent of $35 million in
directed Israeli funds to lobby and conduct public relations in the United
States for arms, aid and preferential diplomatic treatment.

Isaiah L. Kenen:
Foreign Agent to Founder of AIPAC
w/timeline

Kenen had to register under the 1938 Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) with the US Department of Justice. In his biography “Israel’s Defense Line”, Kenen revealed that he began planning to break free of FARA oversight in coordination with the Israeli government in late 1950:
“Israelis began looking for a lobbyist to promote the necessary legislation…would I leave the Israeli delegation for six months to lobby on Capitol Hill? There were other questions. Should I continue my registration as an agent of the Israel government? Was it appropriate for an embassy to lobby? Embassies talked to the State Department, and American voters talked to their congressmen.”
Kenen left the Israel Office of Information to lobby for the American Zionist Council and later became chairman of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee known as AIPAC.

i recently read the history of the justice department vs aipac in getting it to register under the foreign agents act. lots of info here”
i’m not going to argue about it, go ahead and defend the lobby for all i care.
But you want to believe that Israel tells the US what to do?
i definitely believe aipac is funded specifically for israeli interests. whether by segments of the american jewish community, or israelis is irrelevant to me. and yes, they absolutely do pressure members of congress, individuals and politicinas on ‘what to do’ for israel.
furthermore what ‘the US’ does, has to do w/what positions of influence agents of israel have wrt our government. But you want to believe that Israel doesn’t try to influence american foreign policy via aipac? have at it.

Posted by: annie | May 17 2009 23:29 utc | 25

more here

Posted by: annie | May 17 2009 23:31 utc | 26

are you asserting the origin of the plan to blockade gaza came from the US congress? or was the legislation to affirm israels agenda?
sam?

Posted by: annie | May 17 2009 23:34 utc | 27

annie:
i definitely believe aipac is funded specifically for israeli interests. whether by segments of the american jewish community, or israelis is irrelevant to me.
You just don’t stop with the blinders do you? It’s not IPAC it’s AIPAC. It’s not funded solely by Jews but from all corners of American society. It is attended reguarly by the vast majority of politicians from both parties representing all races not just Jews. Its conferences are attended by people from all walks of American life not just Jews. The Christian evangelicals that pledge allegiance to Israel are not Jews. The American media that regularly favor Israel in their reports are not all Jews. You just don’t understand the strategic role Israel play for US interests.

Posted by: Sam | May 18 2009 0:31 utc | 28

yawn, let’s all pretend i said it was funded solely by jews.
i definitely believe aipac is funded specifically for israeli interests. whether by segments of the american jewish community, the christian zionist, the bakery down the street, you, anybody else american or not, or israelis is irrelevant to me.
all better now.

Posted by: annie | May 18 2009 1:01 utc | 29

You just don’t stop with the blinders do you?
would this be the same sam who kept arguing info warfare wasn’t directed at the american audience?? i do believe it is. now tell me, in light of the startingly shocking info people were tortured for the VP/neocons to drumb up evidence (false is fine) of a link between AQ and saddam to brainwash americans into a war, are you ever going to back down. i do believe even after a zillion links as supporting evidence you never relented. so i am not going to have a repeat of another argument w/the likes of you. over the israel lobby or anything else. take your blinders insult and shove it.

Posted by: annie | May 18 2009 1:06 utc | 30

well AIPAC plays hard-ball. Hard enough that no politician would want to mess with them. And its tactics are go far enough beyond the political record to suggest that they probably do’nt owe much if any schooling to anyone

Posted by: jony_b_cool | May 18 2009 1:40 utc | 31

annie:
would this be the same sam who kept arguing info warfare wasn’t directed at the american audience??
Now that’s a stretch. I was specifacally talking about the propoganda directed to Iraqi audiencies via the Lincoln Group and US military personnel writing stories in Iraqi media under Iraqi reporter’s names. I posted a link to Democracy Now to an employee that worked for the Lincoln Group and described just that i.e. an American General pushing favorable stories for politicians from the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq because they supported the occupation and are the largest bloc in the Iraqi government. And you still maintained that you believed the PSYOPS was directed mainly at an American audience.
But I noticed you changed your tune when the Washington Post published an article descibng just what I was telling you. You posted a link to that article as if it was a revelation on how the US military was trying to manipulate the Iraqi public. Lying doesn’t help your cause.

Posted by: Sam | May 18 2009 3:11 utc | 32

Lying doesn’t help your cause.

yawn.
i won fair and square. get over it and quit bloviating.

Posted by: annie | May 18 2009 6:02 utc | 33

AIPAC plays hard-ball
damn straight. darcy , after that her house burnt to the ground.

Posted by: annie | May 18 2009 6:18 utc | 34

annie:
i won fair and square. get over it and quit bloviating.
Ya sure you won with this billiant statement:
i am comfortable simply having a difference of opinion about this but i still think the primary target of US propaganda in iraq is the american public.
Now explain to us how that relates to the accusation you make against me in your post @ 30 above. And you could also explain why when you later posted and commented on the Washigton Post article describing what I was posting you made no mention of the American public being its primary target.

Posted by: Sam | May 18 2009 7:42 utc | 35

But many impatient Barflies expect him to transform the sinking ship into a gleaming ocean liner while still at sea and totally ignore the huge gashes that threaten to sink it
I have several times pointed out that what Obiman inherited is so horrendous and the obstacles so daunting that…etc. But, there are things he can do, important things, within his power, things a majority of Americans would agree with. He isn’t doing them.
One ex:
Torture – He has, on his side, the world, national and international *law*, US opinion (the residue could be manipulated through a national pride meme), the military itself one guesses (or factions within it anyway), one could lengthen the list.
Second, it is a ‘contained‘ issue, it does not spill over onto other matters: besides the few who enjoy torturing and the past and hypothetical future victims, his actions on this matter affect nobody. Even if one day reparations would have to be paid, the sums would be slivers of peanuts as compared to bail-outs or any number of other things, like aid to Israel, but let me not digress.
(From a pragmatist pov, leaving my revulsion, moral issues, etc. out.)
I won’t go into details now as I don’t have dates straight and don’t have time to google, but consider, just as an ex.
Obi-man suspended the Gitmo military tribunals. In fact they have let many ppl go…hundreds, over time. The cases pending (airtight, for some innocents, it is said) of many who were hoping for final conclusion were stopped in their tracks, and the prisoners moulder along longer…And B. O. replaced them with … err nothing…to then re-instore them!
At best, this is a stupendous error:
– an error of law – what applies? International / national law or Bush Cos bric-a-brac of legal justifications for torture? How is the Bush legacy to be unwound? Nothing is stated. Even a distant, cold consideration of the prisoners, or world Int’l relations, would not have produced this outcome.
– a political error – never take a legal step you cannot back up or move forward with. Never.
– an image error. B.O. was elected to clean up the US image, so far it is ‘fail’ and his leftist caring persona (fake imho) has taken a huge bashing. Such rapid loss of trust/support/image/call it glow spells out, hah, fooled you again.
– an error of justice, humanitarianism, fairness, probity, etc.
At worst, well it is worse.
Beware of the soft-left, the neo-libs, the pious, pontificating, social democrats. Watch them like hawks, they are more dangerous than the right.

Posted by: Tangerine | May 18 2009 13:54 utc | 36

[comment by Parviz via email]
Lizard (19), O.K., let’ see. You wrote:
half-ass measures, like attempting to regulate derivatives will mean nothing if millions of people are still losing homes and jobs and health insurance.
So your solution, and to some extent SimplyLurking’s (20) would have been for the U.S. Treasury to have closed down all the technically bankrupt financial institutions including AIG, Citigroup, BoA, Merrill Lynch, Chrysler Financial and hundreds of other crookedly or stupidly run corporations (not to mention the GMs and other fossilized companies), and then for the U.S. Government to have managed each and every one of them by itself (God knows how) while simultaneously doling out $ 3 trillion DIRECTLY to U.S. home-owners to forestall foreclosure …….
And, oh yes, the U.S. Treasury should also have paid another $ ONE TRILLION to pay off U.S. consumers’ credit card debt (Why help only the home-owners?) and simultaneously pay $ 500 billion to cover health service for the disgracefully uninsured 50 million Americans. …. and on …. and on ….
Has it even remotely occurred to you how difficult it would be for the U.S. Government to nationalize behemoths and run them by itself any better than the former managers did? Have you wondered how many people would now be additionally and immediately unemployed if the ‘bad banks’ had been allowed to fold?
And which persons do you nominate to run the ‘good banks’? Bernanke? Greenspan? Some unknown guy who has as little management skill and experience as the previous guys? How do you attract the ‘best brains’ to engineer the turnaround while imposing salary caps? Has ‘nationalization’ ever been shown to work? Even now AIG CEO Libby is doing his best and being torpedoed from all sides, by the media, by outraged citizens and even by Congress even though the AIG mess wasn’t his fault and he’s actually executing his mandate of selling off its assets in as careful a manner as possible.
Since AIG is the poster child for the current mess AND received by far the most TARP funds, let me ask you: Would you have let AIG fold, resulting in not only a $$$ multi-trillion bamkruptcy of interlinked debotrs but a probable meltdown of otherwise healthy banks across the globe? Please give me a simple ‘yes’ or a ‘no’.
(Since I cannot post lengthy messages I may stop posting altogether till the bug at my end or b’s end is eliminated).
[end comment by parviz via email]

Posted by: b | May 18 2009 14:15 utc | 37

parviz, i don’t really care to get into another protracted economic discussion with you. the point i was making in my comment, which you conveniently ignore, is your inaccurate blanket depiction of O’s critics here.
time will tell whether the economic policy enacted by the criminals who brought us this disaster are just trillion dollar bandaids designed to temporarily cover the gore of a system-wide failure, or necessary drastic steps averting cataclysm.

Posted by: Lizard | May 18 2009 14:43 utc | 38

sam, Now explain to us how that relates to the accusation you make against me in your post @ 30 above.
it was not an accusation, it was an observation ie ‘consider the source’. the source being you.
And you could also explain why when you later posted and commented on the Washigton Post article describing what I was posting you made no mention of the American public being its primary target.
link? i don’t know what you are referring to.

Posted by: annie | May 18 2009 14:51 utc | 39

Tangerine, I have repeated numerous times that I support Obama’s economic policies but oppose his other policies. If you had studied my various comments you would have saved yourself the effort of writing such a lengthy rejoinder.

Posted by: Parviz | May 18 2009 15:01 utc | 40

Lizard: “parviz, i don’t really care to get into another protracted economic discussion with you.”
Oh silly me, I thought that was precisely what this extended discussion was about.
As for my blanket depiction of posters, I just happen to have a totally different opinion to those (= apparently MOST MoAers) who claim Obama is executing bad economic policies but don’t have either the patience or the knowledge to explain the alternatives in anything remotely resembling an alternative plan:
“Close the bad banks! Punish the evildoers! Cap salaries! Bring in new management! Let the banks fail and save the home-owners (who shouldn’t have been so stupid as to ride the speculative wave to begin with)! Close down GM, AIG, Chrysler,BoA, Citigroup while simultaneously reducing unemployment (!?!)! Bail out credit card holders who spent beyond their means!”
Pathetic!

Posted by: Parviz | May 18 2009 15:10 utc | 41

Parviz, the economic malaise is more than just wallstreet, and the subsequent biggest transfer of wealth EVER.
you say you disagree with O’s foreign policy? well, let me tell you something: 37 cents of every taxpayer dollar goes to military spending. war is our economic lynch pin, and any attempt to restructure our economic priorities would run up against a giant Pentagon wall.
health care for everyone, reviving our manufacturing capacity, serious infrastructure investment like light rail, this is the kind of stuff that needs to happen.
instead we have dems along with rethugs voting down attempts to ease mortgage defaults.
so continue trying to paint my criticism and others with that broad brush of yours, if you want to expend energy that way. i don’t think my opinions are pathetic. the continuity we are seeing with this administration is what’s pathetic, and i will continue to criticize what i see as a destructive lockstep march over the cliff.

Posted by: Lizard | May 18 2009 15:41 utc | 42

It is such a beautiful spring day outside my new office space (still in the house, but in a spot with three windows!) that I’m feeling a bit like the dreamer asleep on top a grassy knoll under a big oak… I’m dreaming of how fantastically neat it would be if all the MoAns could mind meld.
I wish I knew what Parviz knows about finance… money is not my strong point; when I gamble I like to do it in a casino where I understand the nuanced rules of the games I play, and what the odds are. Finance is so damn complicated because you almost need to turn off your humanity and “stick to the numbers” to make it work. It’s too hard for me to imagine people as fractions of percentages to be able to “cut the fat” from a company.
But I wish that it were somehow possible to meld all of our collective knowledges of our individual experiences into one cohesive thought… How quickly we could get to the meat of a problem rather than the constant bickering we do as individual humans. I’d be willing to think most MoAns (and most humans) could get along rather easily if there wasn’t a constant need to re-defend and define our beliefs to every new person we meet.
If you look at how humans started by living in small family bands where each individual probably had a pretty good idea of what their companions beliefs were. To our now global-wide, six-plus billion people, that are a stew pot (maybe cesspool is a better word?) of ideas, cultures, illusions, misconceptions, ect… that it seems impossible to have a “normal” conversation with anyone these days– even the folks you might have grown-up in the same family with.
When I can take a step-back from the seriousness of what is being argued here at the Moon, I am continually amazed at the dialog that people do have despite the fact several of the posters, and of course b, are translating from a their native language into english… My hat is off to all of you! I can barely manage my native tongue, and many of you are not only informative, but fun to read also.
What we need to do is to design a way to govern that doesn’t lead to criminal behavior…
And while I’m ranting… Yeah, while I’m ranting, imagine how many $25,000-dollar-a-year jobs can be created with a million dollars.
I’m not trying to say $25,000 is much money, but I know several people who manage a pretty good life on that sum.
So for every $1,000,000 given to some asshole banker, we could have created 40 fucking jobs! Even if it were 40 jobs picking-up trash, there would be 40 people buying gas, food, beer, clothes; stuff that keeps the economy greased.
So for every one billion dollars given to some asshole banker, you could employ 40,000 such people… and with a trillion dollars? 40 million people could be given a job picking-up trash… And where did this money, these tax-payer dollars go? They went to pay for more corporate jets, more off-shored factories, more money for the rich at the expense of the poor.
But like I said I don’t understand how finance works…

Posted by: DavidS | May 18 2009 16:04 utc | 43

Lizard, you’re contradicting yourself again. You write “37 cents of every taxpayer dollar goes to military spending”. I know. That’s precisely why I disagree with Obama’s foeign policy that wastes so much money!
You cannot change U.S. foreign policy by cutting off spending. That would be placing the cart before the horse. What Obama has to do is to change the U.S.’s hegemonistic foreign policy that sucks the U.S. economy, by closing bases, letting other nations invest more in global security, reducing aid to Israel, dispensing with new generations of sophisticated weaponry that is useless against Al Qaeda, etc.,. and, above all, STOP wars of choice. Such actions would AUTOMATICALLY reduce the nation’s military expenditure (not to mention the several thousand senseless fatalities and the tens of thousands of permanently crippled servicemen who raise health costs even further). First you change the policy, then the expenses get reduced by themselves.
If you do it the other way round it’s like expecting somebody to lose weight when he/she isn’t even convinced of the need.

Posted by: Parviz | May 18 2009 16:09 utc | 44

DavidS, you know more about economics than you think you do. Yes, bankers are overpaid assholes, no doubt about it. But the problem is that the entire concept of banking has been corrupted. If you want to see banking in its purest form, just look at ‘microfinance’ that, in developing countries, makes loans of just a few dollars to help a lady buy a sewing machine and sell dresses, or $ 20 for a basic pump to sell water, etc.,.
The above description is far removed from the jet-setting, puffed up snobs putting together a deal, re-selling it on the return flight and pocketing $$$ millions of fees for just a few days’ work based on a ‘structured finance’ template that is used and re-used with a few minor modifications.
Unfortunately, ‘easy money’ has been so ingrained in the U.S. psyche, even to the extent of being ‘worshipped’, that no single President will be able to change ‘the system’ during either his first or 2nd term. You cannot change 200 years of U.S. cowboy history overnight.

Posted by: Parviz | May 18 2009 16:19 utc | 45

parviz, i’m not contradicting myself. i simply don’t understand how you can isolate wall street bailouts and say that’s good policy, while simultaneously saying O’s foreign policy is bad.
imho, there is warfare with bombs, and there is warfare with numbers, and both are being waged against poor people by a ruling elite that DOESN’T GIVE A FLYING FUCK who or how many die to keep themselves in power.
obviously you see it differently. maybe you are more invested in seeing the fraudsters propped up than i am.

Posted by: Lizard | May 18 2009 16:35 utc | 46

Parviz,
Since Obama makes no bones about it that he’d rather use war more often than diplomacy to settle disputes around the world, I couldn’t agree more with you that Obama’s bull-in-the-china-shop approach to foreign relations is destined to leave nothing but a trail of death and destruction in his path. But since Obama is showing every sign of thinking that war is the answer to our economic problems, I’m not so sure I agree with you that he’s right on the money when it comes to fixing our economy.

Posted by: Cynthia | May 18 2009 16:35 utc | 47

Parviz-
The much maligned cowboy… Never really was like they show in the movies… these days many are more poet/preachers tied to the land. Reagan was a Hollywood cowboy… they are a dangerous bunch, too used to shooting blanks rather than real bullets.
I agree about the micro finance model… I’d used it in bars for years 🙂
But I’d argue americans haven’t been used to “easy” money… Since Reagan, yeah, I’d agree there was quite a change in americans, but prior to that, we were a country of hard-working dolts who lived off our land more than we did off each other.
We are a country of simple people dreaming of a better life… We’re all still trying to escape the “home country” even now that we’re several generations removed from the peasants who landed upon these shores hoping for something better… All this has been perverted by the powerful, as it always is. History repeats and repeats like an echo that gets louder every generation.
I know it is hard to get out of bed in the morning realizing that I don’t live in the country wearing the white hat… There are many previous generations that will have to be forgiven by my generation… forgiven for being labeled as obtuse to the crimes we felt they couldn’t ignore… Yet now, with information everywhere, many people prefer ignorance and jingoism to real debate and dialog.
America has become the weirdest enigma… We are a country populated by several forms of ignorance: there are the ignorant lefties, the angry ignorant righties, the folks who ignorantly think they’re gonna change the mess, the groups that are ignorant of others plights, the plain ignorant, and a bunch of ignorant politicians; and we all seem to be ignorant of how to meld these different ignorances into something more cohesive and less ignorant.

Posted by: DavidS | May 18 2009 16:41 utc | 48

“obviously you see it differently. maybe you are more invested in seeing the fraudsters propped up than i am.”
Lizard, shame on you for resorting to shooting the messenger when you can’t shoot down his ideas.

Posted by: Parviz | May 18 2009 18:00 utc | 49

Sam,
I hear you, I do, but seriously, because AIPAC is an American corporation, it must represent the United States? This sounds less like sound reasoning, and more like political poetry.
I worked for an American company once that just happened to be the offspring of a large Japanese company. My co-workers and and our customers came from all walks of American life. But, despite this vision of baseball, hotdogs, and apple pie, not one of us was confused about which Japanese company we were beholden to.
I doubt AIPAC is much different. One imagines they, too, have a small group of people who make the key decisions. This is not actually an unusual phenomenon.

Posted by: citizen | May 18 2009 18:14 utc | 50

David, i like your multi-level ignorance breakdown. while i wouldn’t consider myself enlightened by any means, i would like to think i’m at least moderately more aware of my own brand of ignorance than most folks.
and sometimes i think simple things make the most sense, like if folks had meaningful jobs providing for the basic necessities there would be a less folks susceptible to exploitation by various extremist/fundamentalist groups who feed on the desperation brought on by extreme financial inequality.

Posted by: Lizard | May 18 2009 18:24 utc | 51

Lizard, shame on you for resorting to shooting the messenger when you can’t shoot down his ideas.
is this a parody, or are you being serious? i’m beginning to think you’re just trying to be inflammatory because maybe you’re bored or something.

Posted by: Lizard | May 18 2009 18:27 utc | 52

i enjoyed reading this little piece by Eugenia Tsao, on On The Devaluation of Labor here’s a snippet:
The union-bashing and labour-trivializing that has come into vogue of late has typically been predicated on a small set of dubious assumptions:
The first is the notion, extensively debunked on this site and elsewhere, that the wages and benefits enjoyed by unionized workers are undeservedly generous, and have served only to exacerbate the economic downturn. Aided by the kinds of subtle rhetorical techniques beloved by news editors everywhere—the strategically positioned photograph, the passivized headline, the carefully selected metaphor—this perception has achieved a commonsensical flavour amongst unsuspecting readerships throughout the West. Narcotized from years of propaganda, we have been conditioned to scapegoat those who produce the wealth rather than those who have mismanaged it. The relationship between personal wealth and personal worth, we are assured, is a linear one: the more money a person has, the more he’s contributed to society, so let him be. Those who have literally given their lives to their industries, by contrast—often enduring lurid occupational hazards along the way, such as daily exposure to toxins and radiation—are called overpaid parasites.
The second of these assumptions is the notion that there is a qualitative distinction between “skilled” and “unskilled” labour whereby certain kinds of activities (e.g. picking apples) inherently merit less remuneration, because one does not need special credentials to undertake them, while other kinds of activities (e.g. marking essays) merit more remuneration, because such positions do require special accreditations. I will not here examine the legitimacy of this belief. I will say, however, that the dichotomy—designed as it is to engender feelings of envy and resentment—lends itself beautifully to the managerial divide-and-conquer tactics familiar to labour organizers. When a cafeteria server’s wage is perceived to be too high, the teaching assistant is supposed to gaze ruefully at her hard-earned B.Sc. diploma and become indignant. When a laboratory technician loses her job, the bricklayer is supposed to feel a frisson of delight at the revelation that education does not confer immunity. We are all supposed to seethe bitterly when those less “skilled” than we refuse to know their place, and to smirk when those more “skilled” than we are brought down a notch or two.
The third of these assumptions is the conviction that university diplomas and professional degrees confer uniqueness and irreplaceability. Janitors are, allegedly, all more or less interchangeable; PhDs are not. This is the logic upon which my friend, the administrator, was drawing in lamenting the dispensability of her position. But is this even remotely true? When a university department sets up a hiring committee in order to fill a vacant professorship, one of the first things they do is determine what kind of specialist they are looking for: someone who studies land tenure systems in East Africa, for instance, or an arctic archaeologist. A formal job search is then launched, and, for each and every one of these vacancies, hundreds of roughly identical applications pour in. For each and every professor—or lawyer, or doctor—who retires or resigns, someone equivalently qualified is waiting in the wings. Does this mean that all arctic archaeologists are interchangeable? No. What it means is that, in an economy that treats us all as utilities, formal education in itself accords neither indispensability nor individuality.
We ought not delude ourselves. We all wield skills that are vital to our collective survival: the construction worker no less than the engineer, the lab technician no less than the endocrine surgeon. When a waste collector finds himself unemployed, society does not screech to a halt, true—nor does it when an architect finds herself unemployed. There are no unalterable or essential criteria behind these distinctions, whatever the economists say. Labour is labour; we are either all replaceable or all irreplaceable.
*
allow me to add a quick story: last week the shelter i work at put on a “Veterans Stand Down” to benefit homeless veterans. three days before the event, two semi trucks arrived with over 150,000 pounds of military surplus gear. to unload all this stuff, we assembled a motley crew of volunteers, a few military folks, and a whole bunch of the homeless folks we serve, including some of our chronic clients, who usually suffer from addiction and/or mental disorders.
for that brief amount of time, everyone pitched in to get the job done, and everyone had a great time doing it. the volunteers mingled with the drunks who mingled with the soldiers, and in just four hours we got all the gear off the trucks and packed into a tiny church.
as a bitter cynic i was personally elated to find myself unable to dismiss this little display of people from very different walks of life working together to get a job done as inconsequential.
take from it what you will.

Posted by: Lizard | May 18 2009 18:54 utc | 53

sorry, fucking type pad ate my link and blockquotes.
here’s the link

Posted by: Lizard | May 18 2009 18:56 utc | 54

from a piece entitled Changing Obama’s Mindset Howard Zinn:

I had a teacher at Columbia University named Richard Hofstadter, who wrote a book called The American Political Tradition, and in it, he examined presidents from the Founding Fathers down through Franklin Roosevelt. There were liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats. And there were differences between them. But he found that the so-called liberals were not as liberal as people thought-and that the difference between the liberals and the conservatives, and between Republicans and Democrats, was not a polar difference. There was a common thread that ran through all American history, and all of the presidents-Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative-followed this thread.
The thread consisted of two elements: one, nationalism; and two, capitalism. And Obama is not yet free of that powerful double heritage.
We can see it in the policies that have been enunciated so far, even though he’s been in office only a short time.
Some people might say, “Well, what do you expect?”
And the answer is that we expect a lot.
People say, “What, are you a dreamer?”
And the answer is, yes, we’re dreamers. We want it all. We want a peaceful world. We want an egalitarian world. We don’t want war. We don’t want capitalism. We want a decent society.
We better hold on to that dream-because if we don’t, we’ll sink closer and closer to this reality that we have, and that we don’t want.
Be wary when you hear about the glories of the market system. The market system is what we’ve had. Let the market decide, they say. The government mustn’t give people free health care; let the market decide.
Which is what the market has been doing-and that’s why we have forty-eight million people without health care. The market has decided that. Leave things to the market, and there are two million people homeless. Leave things to the market, and there are millions and millions of people who can’t pay their rent. Leave things to the market, and there are thirty-five million people who go hungry.
You can’t leave it to the market. If you’re facing an economic crisis like we’re facing now, you can’t do what was done in the past. You can’t pour money into the upper levels of the country-and into the banks and corporations-and hope that it somehow trickles down.

Posted by: Lizard | May 18 2009 19:06 utc | 55

annie:
would this be the same sam who kept arguing info warfare wasn’t directed at the american audience??
it was not an accusation, it was an observation ie ‘consider the source’. the source being you.
I never made such a claim and here is the thread wherin you make that claim for anybody to read:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2008/04/4-or-33—depen/comments/page/1/#comments
quit lying. In that thread I wrote this:
They were hired by the Pentagon to perform Psyops on Iraqis. That has been my premise from the start. They purchased an Iraqi newspaper and a radio station, they paid Iraqi media to publish pro occupation stories, they paid clerics and scholars etc. to push pro occupation ideas.
In the middle of an occupation, with a raging insurgency, the US was spending hundreds of millions of dollars on PSYOPS trying to get the Iraqi public on their side to stop the killing of their soldiers and you still write this:
i am comfortable simply having a difference of opinion about this but i still think the primary target of US propaganda in iraq is the american public.
That is laughable. That is a completely seperate issue from the propoganda directed at the American public. Where did I say that there was no propaganda directed at the American public?

Posted by: Sam | May 18 2009 20:43 utc | 56

citizen:
I hear you, I do, but seriously, because AIPAC is an American corporation, it must represent the United States? This sounds less like sound reasoning, and more like political poetry.
They are the ones claiming they represent the United States. It’s right in their name not just Israel. Almost all politicians bow to them. Most of the media bow to them. The public pretty much elects politicians according to their wishes. They are all Americans. It’s no secret they influence US foreign policy. Call it what you will it is what it is.

Posted by: Sam | May 18 2009 21:17 utc | 57

They are the ones claiming they represent the United States
and you believe them?
sam, thanks for jolting my memory re splitting hairs between propaganda and lincoln propaganda. my link @ #35

“CPA did not much care what the Arab Press thought. It had long since written off major players like Al-Jazeera as irredeemably hostile, and it appeared not to regard the local Iraqi media as a high priority. The daily briefings were designed with the Western – especially the US – press in mind, because that was the only audience CPA and the White House really cared about.

i already endured an entire thread of you trying to corner me , it didn’t work (read post #50 (about the character(s) running them), or anna missed @ #52

In a nutshell, Operation Together Forward was the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad, presented in the language of propaganda as a civil war, aimed primarily for U.S./ world consumption. I suppose in many respects it worked, as subsequent event played out; the U.S. while fully involved in ethnic cleansing of Baghdad in OTF, successfully presented itself as the only arbiter or hedge preventing (an even worse) civil war while shielding its own involvement, the Sunni insurgency (and its population support) was pushed out of much of Baghdad, and into a deal with the occupation, and Sadr felt secure enough, in acquired real estate, to call for a stand down of Mahdi army operations. All of which made for a compelling enough case last September, to buy another year of occupation in Washington on the illusion that progress was being made. But as recent events would prove, its all a fabrication.

or yourself @ #54 I give up annie your are right I am wrong..
or dan whether it is lincoln or msm, the propagenda going out is the same.
you chose a position and stick to it no matter what. like the idea of aipac being ‘american’. it is the rtwg lobbying group for rtwg israel. they lobby the US congress on behalf of rtwg isreal. the fact their main US headquarters is in nyc and run by jewish americans or dual citizen israei/americans is not that relevant to me.
calling me a liar is not going to win you any brownie pts. you are just stubborn. we disagree that’s all. get over it.

Posted by: annie | May 19 2009 1:20 utc | 58

annie’s link:

CPA did not much care what the Arab Press thought.

Ya sure:

The Defense Department will pay private U.S. contractors in Iraq up to $300 million over the next three years to produce news stories, entertainment programs and public service advertisements for the Iraqi media in an effort to “engage and inspire” the local population to support U.S. objectives and the Iraqi government.
The new contracts — awarded last week to four companies — will expand and consolidate what the U.S. military calls “information/psychological operations” in Iraq far into the future, even as violence appears to be abating and U.S. troops have begun drawing down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/02/AR2008100204223.html

The new contract was awarded to four companies, most of whom Farsetta refers to as “the usual suspects,” including Lincoln Group, the Pennsylvania Avenue company that in 2005 was found to have planted articles written by U.S. military officials in Iraqi newspapers without attribution. (Although the group was cleared of any illegalities, even then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld recognized the potential breach, remarking, “Gee, that’s not what we ought to be doing.”

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/103345/private_military_contractors_writing_the_news_the_pentagon%27s_propaganda_at_its_worst/
As far as I know the American public don’t know Arabic.
like the idea of aipac being ‘american’.
What do you mean the idea? They are American. You did lie:
would this be the same sam who kept arguing info warfare wasn’t directed at the american audience??
I never said any such thing.

Posted by: Sam | May 19 2009 2:14 utc | 59

to “engage and inspire” the local population to support U.S. objectives and the Iraqi government.
i will not be repeating the same argument w/you, anyone can read the old thread. so good of you to produce evidence you DO think this propaganda was directed at the home front.
good night sam.

Posted by: annie | May 19 2009 6:11 utc | 60

@ annie – Not to point the obvious or anything but cropping “for the Iraqi media” out of the quote does not change the meaning. The “local population” refers to Iraqis no matter how much you want to think otherwise. You are making a fool of yourself.

Posted by: Sam | May 19 2009 8:07 utc | 61

sam, let me get this straight, you are accusing me of being a liar for recalling you spent a better part of a thread in denial the main target of psyops is the US audience, you are still arguing (and accusing) the same thing, proving my point regarding my recollections.
again, thanks for making my argument for me. always consider the source (which would include you). now , what was your point about aipac? that they are an american interest group? because they say so? (after all it is in their title!) and the millions of dollar cpa propaganda department was not intended to be used against the US audience (even tho those stories were filtered back to thousands of hometown newspapers via dan senor), because it wasn’t in their saic designed contractual statement (please ignore it is illegal to direct propaganda at US audiences)? gotcha. and US aid goes towards helping the native populations i presume. let’s all go paint some schools and have some award ceremonies. how are those ad hominem crutches working out for you sam? bolstering your argument any?

Posted by: annie | May 19 2009 15:35 utc | 62

[comment by parviz via email – b.]
Cynthia (47), many U.S. presidents have been grossly inconsistent, good in one thing and lousy in another. Lyndon Johnson was great on civil rights and the domestic economy but lousy in foreign policy which sapped the U.S.’s strength. Reagan was strong on the Soviet issue but initiated the whole crooked concept of Supply-Side (= ‘trickle down’) economics that burgeoned into the current mess.
Obama looks to me more and more like Lyndon Johnson, great on the domestic front but still in the grips of the Neocon-Zionist warmongers externally. I don’t agree with you that he sees an aggressive foreign policy “as the answer to our economic problems”. I feel he’s in the grip of the Neocon-Zionist Conspiracy, much in the manner that Lyndon Johnson allowed himself to be fooled by those idiots McNamara and Westmoreland into pursuing the Domino Theory to its bitter end, and the reason is partly because Obama declared upon election that he would devote 80 % of his time to the domestic economic crisis and 20 % to foreign policy, which means that others are making the rules on the latter.
I support his economic efforts but fear that foreign policy will prove to be his downfall, mainly because the domestic problem is so great that he won’t ever find time to dictate foreign policy in the manner he might otherwise wish.
[end comment by parviz via email – b.]

Posted by: b | May 19 2009 18:48 utc | 63

Come on, Sam, you’re either an AIPAC apologist or dreaming ….. AIPAC is as ‘American’ as Netanyahu.
Don’t you Americans have an expression: If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck …”???
So how can you possibly imagine that AIPAC, a group merely ‘registered’ in the United States but devoted to the creation of a ‘Greater Israel’ at no matter what cost in blood and treasure to the U.S.A., can possibly be considered ‘American’?
Haven’t you heard of other ‘U.S.’ lobbying groups being fined and disbanded for representing foreign interests? The only difference between the prosecuted groups and AIPAC is that the latter is simply too powerful, in fact, so powerful that 2 of its spies this month escaped prosecution for passing classified Pentagon documents to Israel. AIPAC = ‘American’? In your dreams!

Posted by: Parviz | May 19 2009 19:29 utc | 64

(Weird! I actually managed to post a couple pof reasonably lengthy messages, from the same computer, without b’s help ……)

Posted by: Parviz | May 19 2009 19:30 utc | 65

Sam, I recommend you read the University of Harvard and Chicago professors Mearsheimer/Walt’s masterpiece “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”. They clearly defines AIPAC as a lobby that places Israel’s interests before those of the U.S.A., and the book contains 300 pages of supporting evidence.
Wag the Dog. Right on!

Posted by: Parviz | May 19 2009 19:37 utc | 66

Parviz,
I find it a bit worrisome that you’re having trouble posting your comments here. I hate to think that you’re living in a place where others are censoring your comments. If this is so, please do watch your back. Being that I’m a godless leftist living deep in the heart of Dixie, I’ve had to learn to be extra careful with what I say and write. Otherwise, I’ll grow into an even bigger outcast than I already am.
BTW, I’ve been meaning to tell you that I find your writing skills, including many others here, to be top-notch. So if only I could write half as well as you, believe me, I’d go to town writing up a storm around here. But then, that’s likely to make me too much of a turn off for b, causing him to tighten the ol’ leash on me.;~)

Posted by: Cynthia | May 19 2009 21:13 utc | 67

Parviz:
So how can you possibly imagine that AIPAC, a group merely ‘registered’ in the United States but devoted to the creation of a ‘Greater Israel’ at no matter what cost in blood and treasure to the U.S.A., can possibly be considered ‘American’?
Uh maybe because they are Americans, you know like they live in America and they hold American citizenship. I already read the Isreali Lobby report and I don’t disagree with it, but that does not change the fact that AIPAC members are Americans. This treating them like some foreign entity because they lobby for a foreign country often turns into the Israel made me do it meme. That is bullshit. They are just a lobby group. Congress enacts the laws and the President guides the policy.
If the government and the media were uncofortable with this releationship they would change it. Instead we see the complete opposite. Most of them pander to Israel just like AIPAC does. The media gives Israel biased coverage and the government gives Israel plenty of money and arms. I really don’t see much difference between them and AIPAC. The notion that this little tiny country in the ME smaller than Lake Michigan is forcing the World superpower to do this I find ludicrous. The US does what it does becuase it believes it is in its own interest to do so just like every other country on the planet does. Please do not confuse this with me endorsing the policy and I’ll thank you not to be calling me names anymore.
The answer does not lie with blaming another country but at looking at why a country does what it does. Here I can only speculate and I will leave out the ethnic connection for obvious reasons as naturally Jews would be expected to be biased towards a Jewish state, which would apply to any race. The US is a superpower and relies on strategic alliances and the suppression of rivals to maintain this status. The PNAC papers spelled this out. So how does Israel fit in? Israel is too tiny to be a rival and yet the US is ensuring that Israel is the dominant regional military power. When Iraq tried to join the nucleur club Israel bombed them. Yes Isreal had its own interest in doing so but you cannot deny that this is a convenient arrangement. Israel fears the Arabs and America fears the potential power of the oil money. Your country is facing the same situation now. They fear your rising power not your President’s rhetoric against Israel.
Another strategic asset is using Israel as America’s covert arms supplier. You should be familiar with this as Israel delivered US tow missiles to your country in the Iran/Contra affair, which Israeli soldiers were forced to eat in Lebanon in 2006. Even today when Sudan signs oil deals with China, stepping on western oil turf, Israel delivers arms to the rebels and gives them offices in Israel. On a side note those very same people seeking refuge in Israel are now being shot at the border by the Egyptians. What a complex world we live in. To sum it up there is much more at work here than Israeli interests. Blaming just deflects attention and some say that is the main reason behind it.

Posted by: Sam | May 20 2009 6:09 utc | 68

[comment by Parviz via email]
Sam, I just read your extensive apology for AIPAC, and in my opinion it all boils down to one simple rule of thumb:
I consider any lobbying group that benefits a foreign nation more than
it benefits its own nation to be a ‘foreign entity’ and should be
treated a such. Why did the U.S.A. ban the Communist Party? Because it
represented the Soviet Union’s interests even though ALL its members
were American citizens. So your argument about the official nationality
of AIPAC members is facetious.
Why isn’t AIPAC banned, and why were its recently proven Israeli spies
(Rosen and Weissman) prevented from prosecution? Because, unlike the Communist Party of
America, AIPAC actually does indeed control Congress and run U.S. foreign policy, and this
has been the status quo since 1948. Israel was even able to bomb the
U.S.S. Liberty (technical and research ship) in 1967, killing 34 U.S. servicemen via REPEATED bombing runs over the clearly U.S.-flagged vessel, while the Treasonous Israel Lobby forced the Cowardly Congress to prevent even a preliminary investigation!!!
Cynthia, thanks for the warning. I’m discussing the problems privately with b. If I am absent from MoA for more than
a month, b knows who I am and you can all come and get me ……
Obviously those whom I have pissed off can buy themselves another round
…..
😉
[end comment by Parviz via email – b.]

Posted by: b | May 20 2009 11:03 utc | 69

Thanks, b. I’m in the other location, so I should leave you in peace for the rest of the day.
And Sam, here is a superb description of how foreign interests (not just AIPAC) infiltrate the United States under false pretexts and with ostensibly altruistic goals. Any Americans who support such organizations, especially the politically-oriented ones, are traitors, no more, no less:
How Foreign Lobbies Imperil America

Posted by: Parviz | May 20 2009 11:25 utc | 70

So much for the link. Here it is again:
How Foreign Lobbies Imperil America

Posted by: Parviz | May 20 2009 11:27 utc | 71

The link system apparently has stopped working. Here’s the full link:
http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=6913
b, I have a feeling something’s really wrong with your IT. Somebody may be sabotaging it, probably the CIA, because there are many oithers besides myself who have started having major problems during the past few weeks.
May I suggest you reboot completely? (P.S., I know nothing about computers, so I apologize in advance if your hardware explodes as a result of any advice I may have given).

Posted by: Parviz | May 20 2009 11:30 utc | 72

Parviz-
Does rebooting mean; To kick the damn computer again ’cause the first kick didn’t work? 🙂
I’d have to agree with parviz and also U$ that something is weird with post here at the bar…

Posted by: DavidS | May 20 2009 11:50 utc | 73

SAM:quit lying
SAM:You are making a fool of yourself.
SAM:”I’ll thank you not to be calling me names anymore.”
SAM: “This treating them like some foreign entity ”
SAM: “naturally Jews would be expected to be biased towards a Jewish state”
SAM: “, which would apply to any race.”
except other races to not have their own countries.
‘nough said.
i am not going to be using the html tags until something is fixed. i am unable to read any of the links on this thread (or the others) except for the ones b posts on the homepage carried over to the individual posts. i would appreciate it if anyone is going to be adding links, they include the url so i can read them.

Posted by: annie | May 20 2009 13:09 utc | 74

sorry, i forgot the quotes around sam’s words in the first 2 quotes. albeit he didn’t directly call me a fool and a liar, but its the same thing in my book, from the person who requests we not call him names.
sam, we all get it. you don’t think aipac is driving the agenda, presumably because they are the size of michigan.
what is the point of calling someone a name when his own words define him quite well.

Posted by: annie | May 20 2009 13:16 utc | 75

i meant lake michigan. (smaller than)

Posted by: annie | May 20 2009 13:19 utc | 76

annie, I believe the criterion I used above (any U.S.-registered organization that places the interests of a foreign nation before those of the United States, irrespective of the nationalities of its members and/or beneficial members, is for all intents and purposes a ‘foreign entity’) should put paid to Sam’s weird statement that AIPAC is ‘American’ purely because it is “run by American citizens”.
What in Hell does Sam believe spies do? They betray their nations. And AIPAC has had more than its share of Israeli spies in it, many of them caught and many others still operating under cover of this disgracefully treasonous ‘American’ organization staffed by treacherous ‘Americans’ who should be dealt with as spies.

Posted by: Parviz | May 20 2009 13:36 utc | 77

In America, all men are created equal… some are just created more equal than others.

Posted by: DavidS | May 20 2009 14:03 utc | 78

let’s hope parvis (re putting an end to weird statements) i’m not holding my breath tho.

Posted by: annie | May 20 2009 16:17 utc | 79

Parviz @ 69:
Why did the U.S.A. ban the Communist Party? Because it represented the Soviet Union’s interests even though ALL its members were American citizens. So your argument about the official nationality of AIPAC members is facetious.
Now that is facetious. You calling the communists “American citizens” when you are critisizing me for calling AIPAC members American citizens?
Why isn’t AIPAC banned, and why were its recently proven Israeli spies (Rosen and Weissman) prevented from prosecution?
Because like I’ve been trying to tell you Parviz there is little difference between the US government and AIPAC.
Nice to see you are still thinking of me Annie.

Posted by: Sam | May 22 2009 10:09 utc | 80

Sam, yours is the most twisted logic I’ve ever come across. And thanks for twisting my words:
What part of “a U.S. organization is a traitor, irrespective of the nationality of its members, when it places foreign interests before those of the U.S.A.” don’t you understand?
Are you genuinely dense or just acting dense?
The American Communist Party served the Soviet Union and was banned. The American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee serves Israel and hasn’t been.
Jeez!

Posted by: Parviz | May 22 2009 14:00 utc | 81

Sam, yours is the most twisted logic I’ve ever come across. And thanks for twisting my words:
It is an undisputable fact that AIPAC members are Americans. The only twisted logic here is your denial of it.
What part of “a U.S. organization is a traitor, irrespective of the nationality of its members, when it places foreign interests before those of the U.S.A.” don’t you understand?
In order to be a traitor you have to be a citizen otherwise you would be a foriegn agent. I suspect that is why you used the term citizen to describe communitsts. I’m not disputing your allegation that citizens that place foreign interests above thier own country’s interests are traitors.
Are you genuinely dense or just acting dense?
Well if I am dense for stating facts what does that say about you? AIPAC members are Americans. The US government aligns with their interests. The US media aligns with their interests. You seem to want to dismiss all this and blame it on “traitors”. Who are the traitors when the government and the media and AIPAC share the same view?
The American Communist Party served the Soviet Union and was banned. The American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee serves Israel and hasn’t been.
Jeez!

Because just like I’ve been trying to tell you the US government obviously favors the latter. The US government chose to do this. Why do you refuse to hold the US government responsible for its own actions and blame it on traitors and another country? Nothing illustrates this more than your dogged defense of Obama in b’s “Obama Unveils His Inner Cheney” post with this statement:
Obama broke his promise ? I thought it was the Senate.
Your adoration for Obama reveals your “shining city on the hill” view you have for the US government, your absolute backing for the US government economic policy that clearly favors Wall Street over the general public is another example. You accept the flowery words and ignore the actions. You blame a foreign influence for the actions because the reality doesn’t square with your utopian view. I will leave with with your owm words as stated in the links post today:
you’re shooting the messenger

Posted by: Sam | May 24 2009 1:58 utc | 82