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Erdoğan Please Note: The U.S. Is A Secular State
On visit in the United States of America the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan spoke to the majority-Christian population in a speech to the Joint Session of the United States Congress:
I know there have been difficulties these last few years. I know that the trust that binds Turkey and the United States has been strained, and I know that strain is shared in many places where the Christian faith is practiced. So let me say this as clearly as I can: Turkey is not, and will never be, at war with Christianity. In fact, our partnership with the Christian world is critical not just in rolling back the violent ideologies that people of all faiths reject, but also to strengthen opportunity for all its people.
I also want to be clear that Turkey's relationship with the Christian community, the Christian world, cannot, and will not, just be based upon opposition to terrorism. We seek broader engagement based on mutual interest and mutual respect. We will listen carefully, we will bridge misunderstandings, and we will seek common ground. We will be respectful, even when we do not agree. We will convey our deep appreciation for the Christian faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country. Turkey has been enriched by Christian Turks. Many other Turks have Christians in their families or have lived in a Christian-majority country.
Link and questions:
- How would you have reacted to the above?
- How would the U.S. public react to it?
- How would the media react?
JohnH,
have you anything reaonable to back up your analysis?
Already the past accession of new members has stretched the workability of the EU. But all 10 countries, that joined the EU in 2004 had together only as many people as Germany. More over most of them lose population even faster than Germany, while Turkey grows faster than France. France and Germany are net payers to the EU, and as biggest countries of the old EU, they have contributed by accepting the single market in a very important way. The Franco-German cooperation has been for the most time of the EU the dominant force, and there is some legitimicy to it, as they are the biggest and have helped poorer countries like Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece, etc.
But if Turkey would join, it would soon be the citizen richest country in the EU and at the same time one of the poorest. What power will they have?
Turks are already now a serious problem in the German speaking countries of the EU and Switzerland. Compared to other immigrants, e.g. from Spain, Poland, Greece, Vietnam, Portugal, Italy, Korea, Russia, … they have by very far the worst results in school, by far the highest criminal rate, engage in mobbing, and a significant share of them ‘buys’ brides in Turkey, that quite occasionally can’t even read and write properly in Turkish.
If Turkey joins the EU, there will be hardly any possibility to regulate immigration, or demand efforts towards integration from immigrants.
For those who can read German,
http://www.stern.de/panorama/:Integration-Einwanderern-Lange/659816.html
[ Özlem Gezer is a Turkish immigrant herself]
or this
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/kultur/aktuell/wohin_steuert_die_tuerkei_1.2337116.html
from Necla Kelek, who is as well from Turkey herself.
Erdogan’s claim, ‘Turkey is not, and will never be, at war with Christianity’ is very questionable. At least into the 90s Turkish Christians have been subject to intimadation or even murder. Questionable rulings on property rights, etc….
But more important, Erdogan is at war with free speech, as proven by his assumption Rasmussen would apologise for the comics crisis. Or proven by the reaction towards any mentioning of the atrocities against minorities like the Armenians, or by the absurd fines for the Dogan group, that has destroyed the largest gov’t critical media company.
Turkey could try to align itself with Russia. But the Russian culture, at least the one of the important political figures, is very European. Russia has its own problems with muslims, e.g. in Chechnya. I seriously doubt, that Russia wants to align itself too closely with Turkey, against its more or less natural and very reliable partners.
Posted by: Jemand | Apr 6 2009 23:23 utc | 7
@annie,
Ok, in more detail. There are two parts, I read in what John has written. The one is the one you name, Turkey’s alignment with Russia.
As told in my first comment, I don’t belive that will happen, because of cultural differences of Turkey and Russia, and cultural familiarity of Europe and Russia, and Russia’s interest in reliable partners.
More over it is a flawed view, to believe countries that own resources and transit countries are natural allies. The opposite is true, as one can see in the conflicts between Ukraine and Russia.
As well for Turkey Russia and the energy providers aren’t sufficient to be able to piss of the EU, as well not in the interest of the millions of Turks that live in Western Europe, and intend to stay there.
The other part of John’s analysis is the role of the US in Europe, and that the US has to engage in this issue, for keeping influence.
I doubt that, because it is a hot potato and it is easy to burn one’s hand. There is no reason, why he has to get involved.
What are the strategic goals of American influence in Europe? If it is to set the economic agenda, he doesn’t really need Turkey. If the main interest is the military access to natural resources, he doesn’t need Europe. If he needs both, he has to talk nice to Turkey, but he shouldn’t really achieve anything. Talk is perfectly enough.
If aligning with the US is good for Europe depends of course on what the US intends to do. Close cooperation and partnership can be more efficient than tensions. If the relationship is one sided, it is obviously not good for Europe, but I understood John in the sense, of what is the benefit for the US. The onesided relationship can even be bad for the US, if this means, that the American empire is maintained longer, that fewer Americans see, how the American empire can endanger the interests of ordinary American people, because it works. But well, that is speculation.
Re: free speech.
I have never heard of any similar event in the US, and very likely I would know about it. Your ‘general betrayus’ incident is of total differnt nature. Nice you had your fun.
Indeed in Europe, free speech is much more limited than in the US. AFAIK the US doesn’t have ‘personal insult’ as an element of a crime. In Germany you could sue me, if I call you names, and you would know who I am. The US protection of free speech is way better. Still even in Germany, you can publish cartoons of every politician [you don’t mean the person, just the office], and about every religion. Usually of course Christians are the targets of anti-religion cartoons in the German press.
There are cases in Europe, where insulting the office, but not the person is a crime, like the king in Spain, but that it is the king is quite revealing. It is actually the speciality of democracy, to take people more important than abstract offices, or some medival code of honour.
Why is somebody inventing a term like islamo-fascism? If he wants to demonise islam, he could just say islam. It is exactly the attempt to distinguish between the evil people, who only abuse islam (actually those, who take the quoran serious, there are more than 20 request to kill the non-believers in Quoran) and the islam world as such. In the same way the use of the word ‘Christian fundamentalists’ is not an insult for Christians, but distinguishes between the majority of normal Christians, and the ‘Christians’ on Fox news.
Of course it is possible, that there was demonisation of islam in general in the US. But it would be pretty ridiculous to claim either the Afghanistan or Iraq war on that. Maybe the demonisation of islam is a tool to get support for these wars in the US public, but it is not the goal of the war to kill muslims, because they are muslims, nor would the US police ignore cases of murder, just because the victims were muslims.
If there are systematic murder, intimdation and displacements of whole communities of muslims IN THE USA, with mutual executive and judicial support, then I’m convinced. But I can’t imagine that happening in the US. I’m not aware, that it is currently happening in Turkey, but it did happen up into the 90s with Christians in Turkey.
Posted by: Jemand | Apr 9 2009 3:27 utc | 16
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