Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 4, 2009
Links April 04 09
  • At Wired Sharon Weinberger has a major scoop: How To: Get a No-Bid Contract for Russian Choppers. Helicopters for Iraq – a shady Pentagon office, a $500 million no-bid contract to a dubious U.S. company. Hundreds of millions payed to a Russian company that does not deliver …
  • William Pfaff compares the ‘Long War’ with Europe’s Thirty Years’ War.
  • Realist Stephen Walt doesn't like the AfPak Muddle
  • It is hard to get Urdu language books in Pakistan because they are 'Indian'. It is hard to get Urdu language books in India because …  - 
    A funny story from Sepoy at Chapati Mystery.
  • Did Israel really bomb Sudan? We don't think so. Even Debka doubts the story (and adds its own spin.)
  • Pat Lang on Ambassador Feltman and Lebanon. As elections approach, Lebanon will heat up again.
  • 14 people get killed in a Mumbai like attack. Why isn't this called terrorism?

Please add your links, news and views in the comments.

Comments

14 people get killed in a Mumbai like attack. Why isn’t this called terrorism?
it’s not terrorism because there is no political agenda being furthered by these killings.
b, the phenomena of inexplicable springtime rampaging is a psychosis unique to the U.S. referring to these killings as a “Mumbai like attack” is a totally incorrect analogy.
this has been, i believe, the 4th nationally publicized shooting in, what, three weeks? last week it was a nursing home, a few weeks before that a guy killed members of his family and a few strangers, before that ten people slain in Alabama.
b, you don’t know this country as well as you think you do.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 4 2009 6:05 utc | 1

TWICE (MAYBE MORE)
fell over twice no parody poor strings and a careful degree of plausible deniability from
the manufacturer.
push over easy no kidding so borrowed armor placed carefully to create a modicum of
defense capability.
roll over play dead dog paws pointing sunward but not really rigor mortis man until she
gets deadly serious.
pass over angel of death no more lambs from Palestine please or else you risk proving
God’s poor judgement.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 4 2009 6:24 utc | 2

Why isn’t this called terrorism?
Because terrorists are always the other, we can’t label our own people terrorists. Even though what they do matches the definition. Same with this guy, in a definite (right wing) political act targeting an immigration center, same with that other guy in the Unitarian Church shootings (“to kill liberals”), or Eric Rudolf bombing abortion clinics.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 4 2009 7:21 utc | 3

Who said it wasn’t a terrorist attack?
I’m reading a report in El Pais saying that Baitullah Mahsud, the pakistani Taliban leader, is claiming responsability for the slaughter!
Which compared with the normal amount of evidence required to put the responsability of other purpoted terrorists attacks on ‘evil muslims’ is more than enough.
In fact after the attack a few days ago on that police center in Pakistan he had already claimed that he would hit the US. More evidence!

Posted by: ThePaper | Apr 4 2009 7:31 utc | 4

Baituallah Mehsud claims U.S. shooting

Updated at: 1200 PST, Saturday, April 04, 2009
WANA: Taliban militant leader Baituallah Mehsud claimed on Saturday responsibility for an attack on a U.S. immigration centre in New York state in which 13 people were killed.
“I accept responsibility. They were my men. I gave them orders in reaction to U.S. drone attacks,” Mehsud told foreign news agency by telephone from an undisclosed location.
A man armed with two handguns killed 13 people at an immigration services centre before apparently turning the gun on himself, authorities in Binghamton, New York, said.

Posted by: b | Apr 4 2009 7:48 utc | 5

b, I´m sorry but I personally find the new format a mess. ´Topics´ seem to have been replaced by a scattered selection of disparate ´Links´. It´s hard to keep track or know where to post what any more, as there´s too much overlap between threads and it no longer makes any difference where messages are posted. It´s hard to be ´on topic´ when every new link deals with several unrelated topics.
I propose a set of permanent links on the most important matters of the day, for example:
The Global Financial Crisis
Geopolitical trends
Israel
Energy (oil, gas cartels, …)
Iran´s nuclear issue
etc.,. etc.,.
There would obviously still be loads of overlap even in the above, but far less than at present.
Anyone else agree or disagree?
These are JMHO. Not trying to interfere: I wouldn´t want your ´job´ for all the money in the world 😉

Posted by: Parviz | Apr 4 2009 8:09 utc | 6

This is REALLY important.
The YouTube video below is just the tip of the iceberg. Congratulations to the Jewish organization J Street for acting as a counterweight to their Nazi brethren whom the U.S.A. and the West continue to appease. If Ahmadinejad had made even a watered down version of Lieberman´s documented public statements (and without the need for convenient ´mistranslations´) Iran would have been instinctively vilified and punished by the ´principled´ global community. The U.S.A. and Europe fuel terrorism with nonchalance and then ´innocently wonder´ why people resort to rocket attacks and suicide bombs. 6 decades after WWII Fascist statements are still encouraged while self-defence by a raped nation is considered abhorrent. Based on America´s supply of terrorist financing and WMD to Israel it´s a wonder the U.S.A. didn´t actually enter WWII on the side of the Nazis:

Israel´s Nazi F.M.

Posted by: Parviz | Apr 4 2009 8:12 utc | 7

US Envoy Writes of Israeli Threats
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090413/crossette

Posted by: Anthony | Apr 4 2009 8:14 utc | 8

and oh, by the way, under U.S. ´anti-Semitism´ laws passed under Bush, any comparison of Israel with Nazi Germany is a punishable offence. Evidently, Lieberman´s statements aren´t covered by any U.S. Laws except for the U.S. Law of Double Standards which reigns supreme over all other matters of principle.

Posted by: Parviz | Apr 4 2009 8:17 utc | 9

re Baituallah Mehsud
now isn’t that convenient? quite brilliant actually, killing two birds with one stone (bad analogy for sure). With this single act of domestic terrorism, which is probably due to a Vietnamese man going haywire after finding himself in another culture and not fitting in, the PTB have quickly spun it to be sponsored by our new enemies, the Pakistanis. The best part is that no blond haired blue eyed real americans had to die to make the point.
you gotta hand it to ’em. they are quick on their feet.

Posted by: dan of steele | Apr 4 2009 8:52 utc | 10

Lizard,
I am reminded of an experiment I read of many years ago. I found this reference which describes it. If you couple that with something Deanander said some time ago, and I do hope to get it right since I can’t find the quote, yeast must have food or it dies, when it eats it grows, if it is in a container it continues to grow until the poisons it produces finally kill the entire colony. when asked how that compares to humans, scientists can only say that we are not yeast.
we are not rats either but at the end of the day, I don’t think we act any differently.
there simply are not enough resources on the planet to support an ever growing human population. we continue to overcome the natural barriers to population control by killing or rendering impotent that which would kill us and by modifying nature itself to give us more at the expense of other living beings.
of course it can’t go on forever, but who wants to be the first to give up his spot for someone else?
sound of crickets…

Posted by: dan of steele | Apr 4 2009 9:01 utc | 11

@#1:
No political motive?
A white-boy went on a rampage and targeted new immigrants.
No political motive?
That’s one of the dumbest comments i’ve ever read on these boards.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Apr 4 2009 9:15 utc | 12

REGARDING THE LAST DOT POINT:
http://www.theage.com.au/world/14-dead-in-us-immigration-shooting-20090404-9s5v.html
“The Age” is one of Australia’s main newspapers.

Posted by: Al | Apr 4 2009 9:18 utc | 13

Eh. “Immigrant Wong”.
So much for white-boy.

Posted by: china_hand2 | Apr 4 2009 9:19 utc | 14

Obama looks for appeasement with Iran.
New York Police Department doesn’t give a damn.

Posted by: andrew | Apr 4 2009 10:25 utc | 16

The decision (implying a reason)to kill people, selected among your civilian peers is a political act. Designed to make a political point, regardless of the validity of the reasoning, or direct affiliation to a cause. These types acts of seemingly random violence are endemic to a culture where individualism runs roughshod over the collective, where a single individual exacts punishment over a nameless multitude as a planned and premeditated statement. And all of these type statements are in effect, revenge killings. To admit that this is a form of terrorism, is to admit that it is a political product of our culture – so they won’t.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 4 2009 10:32 utc | 17

Great article: Class war 101: meet the reptiles (who are making meat out of you).

Posted by: andrew | Apr 4 2009 10:57 utc | 19

I’m with Anna Missed – watch how fast this will be politicized in the context of immigration and 2nd Amendment. And these murder sprees are highly political exactly because, as Lizard says, they are a psychosis unique to the U.S. , although that’s becoming less true, unhappily.

Posted by: Tantalus | Apr 4 2009 14:06 utc | 20

i agree it is political, yet i don’t know the specific motives nor do i believe there is any connection to #5.
andrew, great link@ #8.
b, i like the format

Posted by: annie | Apr 4 2009 14:49 utc | 21

Received from a good acquaintance:
Dear friends,
This is groundbreaking!
George Bisharat has broken through in the Saturday New York Times with a devastating op- ed detailing Israel’s violations of international law in Gaza. This is a potential turning point in Americans’ understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The New York Times will surely be flooded with letters. Please write your letter supporting Bisharat’s position today.
Letters to the editor should be under 150 words and include your name, address, and phone number(s) for verification purposes. Please send your letter to letters@nytimes.com today.
May justice prevail,
Sam

The New York Times
April 4, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
Israel on Trial
By GEORGE BISHARAT
San Francisco
CHILLING testimony by Israeli soldiers substantiates charges that Israel’s Gaza Strip assault entailed grave violations of international law. The emergence of a predominantly right-wing, nationalist government in Israel suggests that there may be more violations to come. Hamas’s indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians also constituted war crimes, but do not excuse Israel’s transgressions. While Israel disputes some of the soldiers’ accounts, the evidence suggests that Israel committed the following six offenses:

Violating its duty to protect the civilian population of the Gaza Strip. Despite Israel’s 2005 “disengagement” from Gaza, the territory remains occupied. Israel unleashed military firepower against a people it is legally bound to protect.

Imposing collective punishment in the form of a blockade, in violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. In June 2007, after Hamas took power in the Gaza Strip, Israel imposed suffocating restrictions on trade and movement. The blockade — an act of war in customary international law — has helped plunge families into poverty, children into malnutrition, and patients denied access to medical treatment into their graves. People in Gaza thus faced Israel’s winter onslaught in particularly weakened conditions.

Deliberately attacking civilian targets. The laws of war permit attacking a civilian object only when it is making an effective contribution to military action and a definite military advantage is gained by its destruction. Yet an Israeli general, Dan Harel, said, “We are hitting not only terrorists and launchers, but also the whole Hamas government and all its wings.” An Israeli military spokeswoman, Maj. Avital Leibovich, avowed that “anything affiliated with Hamas is a legitimate target.”
Israeli fire destroyed or damaged mosques, hospitals, factories, schools, a key sewage plant, institutions like the parliament, the main ministries, the central prison and police stations, and thousands of houses.

Willfully killing civilians without military justification. When civilian institutions are struck, civilians — persons who are not members of the armed forces of a warring party, and are not taking direct part in hostilities — are killed.
International law authorizes killings of civilians if the objective of the attack is military, and the means are proportional to the advantage gained. Yet proportionality is irrelevant if the targets of attack were not military to begin with. Gaza government employees — traffic policemen, court clerks, secretaries and others — are not combatants merely because Israel considers Hamas, the governing party, a terrorist organization. Many countries do not regard violence against foreign military occupation as terrorism.
Of 1,434 Palestinians killed in the Gaza invasion, 960 were civilians, including 121 women and 288 children, according to a United Nations special rapporteur, Richard Falk. Israeli military lawyers instructed army commanders that Palestinians who remained in a targeted building after having been warned to leave were “voluntary human shields,” and thus combatants. Israeli gunners “knocked on roofs” — that is, fired first at corners of buildings, before hitting more vulnerable points — to “warn” Palestinian residents to flee.
With nearly all exits from the densely populated Gaza Strip blocked by Israel, and chaos reigning within it, this was a particularly cruel flaunting of international law. Willful killings of civilians that are not required by military necessity are grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, and are considered war crimes under the Nuremberg principles.

Deliberately employing disproportionate force. Last year, Gen. Gadi Eisenkot, head of Israel’s northern command, speaking on possible future conflicts with neighbors, stated, “We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction.” Such a frank admission of illegal intent can constitute evidence in a criminal prosecution.

Illegal use of weapons, including white phosphorus. Israel was finally forced to admit, after initial denials, that it employed white phosphorous in the Gaza Strip, though Israel defended its use as legal. White phosphorous may be legally used as an obscurant, not as a weapon, as it burns deeply and is extremely difficult to extinguish.
Israeli political and military personnel who planned, ordered or executed these possible offenses should face criminal prosecution. The appointment of Richard Goldstone, the former war crimes prosecutor from South Africa, to head a fact-finding team into possible war crimes by both parties to the Gaza conflict is an important step in the right direction. The stature of international law is diminished when a nation violates it with impunity.
George Bisharat is a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/opinion/04bisharat.html

Posted by: Parviz | Apr 4 2009 15:08 utc | 22

china_hand: did you read the link? I don’t think Mr. Wong was a white guy, so maybe before you start referring to my comment as stupid, you should get your facts straight. the guy recently lost his job, according to the news report this morning, and he didn’t speak english well.
i’ll concede that this will get politicized, because others with perceive this as a political act, but i still stand by my statement; there was, initially, no obvious political agenda being served by murdering these folks, and to refer to this event as a mumbai-like attack is a bad analogy.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 4 2009 15:08 utc | 23

parvis #7, thanks for linking that video (i posted also yesterday). i urge everyone to go there and sign the petition. i am a member of jstreet and sign all their petitions (so far) and this morning is the first time i have received any emails from them thanking me and asking me to spread the news of the video. they don’t spam you i swear. sign up, become a member, they need our support.

Posted by: annie | Apr 4 2009 15:09 utc | 24

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html
That Bill Moyers – William Black exchange should be on distribution list to every email inbox in the world. There it is in words of few syllabless, Where We Are as of Today, and How We Got There. Black’s solution paragraph is apt, concise, and workable. But I don’t think Barack Obama has that much sense or spine in him.

Posted by: Auskalo | Apr 4 2009 15:17 utc | 25

i find it interesting, though, china_hand, that you assumed the guy was white. he actually recently immigrated from China.
this is unrelated, but i really enjoyed your geopolitical summation on another thread. you are obviously not stupid, and i would appreciate the same consideration.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 4 2009 15:20 utc | 26

whoops, didn’t see you @14. you caught yourself, that’s good.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 4 2009 15:22 utc | 27

From my computer’s dictionary Politics-(often the politics of) the assumptions or principles relating to or inherent in a sphere, theory, or thing, esp. when concerned with power and status in a society : the politics of gender.
I had to go look-up politics to make sure I was reading how many of you see the NY gunman post correctly… In this sense I guess it is a political act, a last desperate attempt to focus attention upon the gunman who sees this as the only possible recourse for his problems (it’s almost always a him, isn’t it?)
Guns and violence are hammered into american men from birth by our parents, media, schooling and social training; numbers, “logic”, “reason” and violence are the imaginary male traits we’re told our testes contain; our penis projecting power to “balance” the female tendencies towards spiritualism, nurturing, “irrationality”… Yeah all that Freud crap were brought up believing…
I’m a gun rights guy – funny I don’t own any firearms myself (a couple of really nice pellet rifles though) – and I believe society as a whole would be better and safer if there were more “RESPONSIBLE” gun owners… unfortunately guns are treated as a sort of religious object, rather than just another useful tool, and as such, tend to be used in symbolic ways…
I think it’s a valid argument that such a shooting wouldn’t happen in a society that was equally armed; how many crimes would be prevented by the deterrent of the perp being shot himself? One thing that sticks out in most of these mass shootings is how “soft” the targets are… these thugs don’t go shooting-up police stations now do they? Do you think it’s because they’re scared of the “law”, or scared of the lawman’s gun?
Cars still kill more people than guns… and are even used as purposeful lethal weapons (thinking of a lady running down her ex…) But I am not blinded to the problems that may be caused by widespread personal weapons. I imagine as some crime statistics would drop, others might rise. But overall I think we’d be a better, safer place.
In late 19th century america’s west was painted as this lawless place where everyone was shooting everyone else and there are some statistical numbers that can be massaged to show this. But most western violence was drunk against drunk, much like it is today… Bars can be dangerous places even when guns are illegal; barstools, pool cues, bottles… and people still aren’t against the old, tried and true: A rock from the parking lot.
I think the violence in american society is inherent in any place there is so much class warfare between the haves and haves not. The media portrays weapons and violence as the quickest, most effective tool to win any argument; even something as silly as fighting over what channel to watch can end in a killing (one of the most obvious ways TV can lead to violence, ‘nuf reason not to watch right there)
When some poor kook looses it and uses a gun to get attention, it should be a barometer for all of us to examine the what’s and why’s of our society. I know it is a tired phrase, “guns don’t kill people, people with guns kill people…” But it’s true, handguns and rifles aren’t out patrolling the streets looking for some fool to shoot.
American society needs to ask why these men feel so disenfranchised they are willing to kill others.
Aren’t there days we all feel we’re falling down?
A yuppie wet dream movie… but it does gives us the background on these kooks who must be, or become like, spoiled children starved for attention. The movie even exposes the problem… rather than confront the power structure shitting on him, he confronts all the others just like him, the other rats all trying to scratch their way through a hot summer day in a filthy city.
Somebody needs to hit the reset button, but it’s not located down on street level, it’s in the boardrooms and penthouse suits of the real assholes – my term of endearment is “rich fuckers” – but you may have your own favorite.

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 4 2009 15:26 utc | 28

Amid all the talk of american troop pull-outs and such, why isn’t there more talk of the war reparations I’m sure americans are gonna be paying once the dust settles on this current mess?
War reparations…
After the trillions we’re in the hole for because of the financial mess, these payments would break the bank, so to speak.
Maybe I am starting to see the big picture… America continues on the war footing until the rest of the world stops us, then the trials and the public humiliation… then a few years of economic hardship followed by the new superpowers investing to rebuild our infrastructure so we can pay our war penalties… and american becomes the new germany?
How’s that for a bailout?

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 4 2009 15:47 utc | 29

All unclear over Israeli policy.
The Iran/US rapproachment dance.

Posted by: andrew | Apr 4 2009 16:13 utc | 30

Biden and Nixon: a tale of two Latin American experiences.

Posted by: andrew | Apr 4 2009 16:16 utc | 31

richard silverstein brings us Bibi’s Father’s Answer to the ‘Arab Problem”: Hang’ Em in the Town Square
check out Maariv’s interview w/Netanyahu’s father
when following the additional link to the interview also check out part 2 on the sidebar

Posted by: annie | Apr 4 2009 16:35 utc | 32

@Dano’ #11
Not the first time that yeast analogy has been misattributed. You thought it was DeAnander; Citizen thought it was Malooga way back in 2006 (This thread, comment 118.) That one was actually me. No biggie, and if I’m flattered to be confused for the heavyweights.
Also, I agree with parviz at #6 above. This is too much info for a single thread to process.

Posted by: Monolycus | Apr 4 2009 17:29 utc | 33

Ignore my typos. I’m still working on my coffee and it took me an hour to track down that friggin’ reference in the archives.

Posted by: Monolycus | Apr 4 2009 17:37 utc | 34

you are a heavy weight monolycus!
that said, it’s just like an ot thread w/a good kick off from b.

Posted by: annie | Apr 4 2009 18:35 utc | 35

@annie (above)
Yeah, I guess if I view it as an open thread, it’s okay. There’s just so much during the kickoff, that it’s hard to give anything more than a cursory treatment and it becomes something of a data dump. I’m sure I’ll cope with it.
Incidentally, in the three or so years since I started thinking about that yeast thing, I have come up with a kind of punchline to it. Whether the yeast starves or chokes, it is an excrutiating process which would guarantee some kind of dementia before demise. I’ve often wondered what is going on in the mind of that final yeast cell and I think I might have an idea. It’s probably less concerned about the agonies of its situation or the impending finality that awaits it… it’s almost certainly pissed off that it’s going to miss the latest reality television show or stewing about some foul epithet the penultimate cell had called it the day before.

Posted by: Monolycus | Apr 4 2009 18:58 utc | 36

Auskalo @ #25–Yes, the Bill Moyers’ interview with William Black is great, on point. The guy pulls no punches, even tho’ he was a strong Obama backer.
Glenn Greenwald ties Black’s comments in with what Simon Johnson wrote in The Atlantic, what WaPo article covers, and with how Obama is handling the (so far seeming) cover up of the BushCo war and constitutional crimes.

Posted by: jawbone | Apr 4 2009 19:34 utc | 37

Oh hell. Obama shipped large amounts of arms to Israel in March.
Actions are so much more important than words, Mr. President.
Via Tina at The Agonist’s Newswire.

Posted by: jawbone | Apr 4 2009 20:00 utc | 38

Mono,
good to hear from you again, how are you finding things in the land of round eyed girls?
sorry about the mis-attrib. and yes, I would place you with the other heavy hitters.

Posted by: dan of steele | Apr 4 2009 22:24 utc | 39

for David @28: 3 cops killed by ex-marine

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 4 2009 22:29 utc | 40

Yes, I just saw that on the wire… Also those cops killed out in oakland last month; but the tendency of the pre-meditated shooter is towards soft targets… These cop shooting are more like targets of opportunity for the shooters, left alone there might not have been any shooting at all…
Speaking of ex-marine shooters, I couldn’t help but think of the scene from “Full Metal Jacket” when Gunnery Sergeant Hartman is telling the recruits about the expertise of marine shooters. I was surprised I couldn’t find this scene in youtube form anywhere… I’d thought it was a pretty well-known scene, but maybe marines would rather remember the poor recruits sleeping with their rifles.

HARTMAN: The deadliest weapon in the world is a marine and his rifle. It is your killer instinct which must be harnessed if you expect to survive in combat. Your rifle is only a tool. It is a hard heart that kills. If your killer instincts are not clean and strong you will hesitate at the moment of truth. You will not kill. You will become dead marines. And then you will be in a world of shit. Because marines are not allowed to die without permission! Do you maggots understand?
RECRUITS: Sir, yes, sir!
HARTMAN: Do any of you people know who Charles Whitman was? None of you dumbasses knows? Private Cowboy?
COWBOY: Sir, he was that guy who shot all those people from that tower in Austin, Texas, sir!
HARTMAN: That’s affirmative. Charles Whitman killed twelve people from a twenty-eight-storey observation tower at the University of Texas from distances up to four hundred yards. Anybody know who Lee Harvey Oswald was? Private Snowball?
SNOWBALL: Sir, he shot Kennedy, sir!
HARTMAN: That’s right, and do you know how far away he was?
SNOWBALL: Sir, it was pretty far! From that book suppository building, sir!
HARTMAN: All right, knock it off! Two hundred and fifty feet! He was two hundred and fifty feet away and shooting at a moving target. Oswald got off three rounds with an old Italian bolt action rifle in only six seconds and scored two hits, including a head shot! Do any of you people know where these individuals learned to shoot? Private Joker?
JOKER: Sir, in the Marines, sir!
HARTMAN: In the Marines! Outstanding! Those individuals showed what one motivated marine and his rifle can do! And before you ladies leave my island, you will be able to do the same thing!

Leaves ya’ feeling all warm and fuzzy now doesn’t it? I’d bet these last two shooting are just the start too… too many out of work, down on their luck veterans who might remember more about their training than their old bosses might care for.
I really hope humans can pull our heads out of our asses and see what damage wars do. I guess not enough people remember the vietnam vets who ended-up screwed-up living on the streets. Sad, sad, sad.

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 5 2009 0:08 utc | 41

my understanding of the term terrorism: a tactic often used when a significant power imbalance exists in furtherance of a corresponding political agenda.
but of course terrorism is the abstract target of a very real war, and the problem (or benefit) of waging war against a tactic is it’s impossible to win, so the war never ends.
so my question is: why call this chinese guy who snapped and shot a bunch of undeserving people a terrorist?
anna missed: Because terrorists are always the other, we can’t label our own people terrorists. Even though what they do matches the definition. Same with this guy, in a definite (right wing) political act targeting an immigration center, same with that other guy in the Unitarian Church shootings (“to kill liberals”), or Eric Rudolf bombing abortion clinics.
the government has no problem using the term domestic terrorist, when it comes to groups like ELF, and it’s not definite this was a right wing political act.
the misguided assumptions being made here, beginning with b’s skewed framing of the link, is curious. i would love to hear more.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 5 2009 0:43 utc | 42

b, what happened to what I tried to post just now?
to jlcg, many thanks for bringing the words “intellectual eunuchoidism” into my vocabulary! I can hardly wait!
however, “a sort intellectual eunuchoidism, while the generative studies like the sciences and mathematics go unattended” suggests that you think those are life-producing to the participants. as a researcher I find it is *so absorbing* of vital juices I must also do something totally opposite to avoid becoming a raisin – e.g. interpretive dance.
to annie, nothing about Gilad Atzmon suggests self-hatred to me. but then I’m a photomicroscopist which is more of a solitary pleasure than being one of the “camera crowd”.
nevertheless, cheers to you both and to us all!

Posted by: lambent1 | Apr 5 2009 1:35 utc | 43

I have been wondering about that claim from Baituallah Mehsud (I’m thankful for “cut&paste”) about the NY killings… I know there are all sorts of strange things that are claimed when some tragedy happens… the paranoid freak in me is curious if these aren’t some type of psyops to try theories to see which float. Kinda test marketing some possible reasons to see which plays best for their market.
People are pretty easy to manipulate when they’ve been convinced their reality, is in fact fantasy… Or is it vice versa?
Long before 9/11 – but even more so since – people are being asked to believe in the unbelievable… two skyscrapers and another gigantic (at least by hick standards) building vaporize because two gnats hit two of the three buildings… The amazing, magical bowling spare taking two pins quick and having that last pin tumble down into mostly nothing….
Or maybe they had some help from thermite?
I went looking for a piece I read recently about how by controlling the language used to describe events, the perception of the event is shaped. Damn I wish I had one of those minds that can remember this stuff… But regardless I think most MoAns have at least the basic understanding of this concept of propaganda.
The MSMedia are daily feeding us crap and telling us it’s information. Politicians are feeding us crap and telling us it’s representative government. Multinational food companies are feeding us crap and calling it food. Humans are treating each other like crap and calling it love. Wars are being fought and humans dying because of a big pile of crap called peacekeeping. People in china are building crap and calling it productivity. Americans are buying crap and calling it stimulating the economy. When will all this crap end?
I’m tired of calling crap by so many other names, because even magically multicolored crap laying perfectly coiled in the bottom of a white bowl, is still crap.
It’s been a long, cold, crazy winter with shitty weather and a bad economy… Cabin fever sets-in and only one mountain man is left to pack out the gold… Hate to see what a hot summer is going to be like. Thank G_D for those Rocky Mountains to go hide from the heat and maybe the horrors.

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 5 2009 2:07 utc | 44

My perspective is that the word terrorism, signifies terror being used as a political agent against an unassuming or innocent subject(s) in order to illustrate a particular position (or ideal) of power. It shouldn’t matter whether the act itself is on behalf of a state, an ideology, or an individual, because all acts can be construed to have political content – so we shouldn’t confuse notion of terrorism from the political legitimacy of the act itself. Unless we would agree that sometimes the killing of innocents to make a political point is acceptable. Thats why its another question (one of legitimacy) all together whether this guy is a white guy attacking innocents because he hates the current immigration policy, or whether he is a frustrated Asian participant (with a personal agenda) in those same immigration policies.
In order to prevent the government from assigning the terrorist label selectively to only the acts it considers against its interests, it seems a good idea to first define terrorism as an act in itself, separate from its intent, and then secondly consider the legitimacy of its political content. And not the other way around.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 5 2009 2:30 utc | 45

from what i have gathered, this angry chinese guy used violence to address personal frustration, and i don’t think, anna missed, that you are saying anyone who uses violence to address a grievance fits your definition of terrorism.
does a person, ideology, or state have to be conscious of using violence (terror) as a political agent for it to be terrorism? and do they have to perceive their victims as unassuming or innocent? if those two conditions are implicit in the definition of the act, i still don’t see how the term is applicable in this situation.
and honestly, the term itself is so loaded i do have a hard time separating the notion from the legitimacy. sometimes it seems the word terrorist is just a convenient justification for the war machine’s increasing carnage.
*
b: your recent darfur post popped up over at rigourous intuition. i thought you might like to know.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 5 2009 4:03 utc | 46

@Dano’ #39
“…how are you finding things in the land of round eyed girls?”
Well, to be honest, I’m keeping a pretty close round eye on stories like this one, since I don’t plan to stay here very long. I have a very beautiful girl with almond shaped eyes who is waiting for me to come back to her and I don’t want to make her wait any longer than is absolutely necessary. Hopefully, relations above the northern border won’t escalate into absolute stupidity to make things any more difficult than they already are.

Posted by: Monolycus | Apr 5 2009 5:15 utc | 47

Some people go insane when they run out of chances. The crazier ones go on killing sprees here in the USA. But there must be some kind of agent in the environmemt that erodes the human nervous system since the attacks seem to have gone viral, showing up in Germany and Finland. People are probably sleeping with their guns, the poor dweebs and misfits who never could get laid, or they developed certain kinds of brain tumors, or they barely subsist as the loners whose nervous systems are overloaded with disinformation and PsyOps babble coming at them 24/7 on cable TV, or absorb potent poison slowly poured into their ears on the psychotic talk radio. Terrorists, the real ones, are focused on something other than themselves. They are under certain circumstances psychotic, but not isolated from those they identify as fellow sufferers.
Poor Wong belonged to a different category; he was not a terrorist, but a byproduct of an increasingly inhuman culture, a fracture of the psyche, a breakdown of support systems. He lost his mind; his hope was pulverized; his bearings were hopelessly scrambled; his enemies were legion and everywhere; he was dreadfully alone. And I have to tell you, that as I move about in the Texas city where I live, I’m seeing a wild look in the eyes of some people I bump into. There seems to be a rise in craziness.

Posted by: Copeland | Apr 5 2009 6:54 utc | 48

BREAKING NEWS –
NORTH KOREA LAUNCHES EMPTY MISSILE!
REMAINS ALOFT FOR ALMOST 15 MINUTES!
SPLASHES ONLY 1,200 MILES DOWNRANGE!
MISSES US BY MORE THAN 6,000 MILES!
SEOUL, South Korea – North Korea launched a rocket that passed over Japan on Sunday, defying calls from world leaders to scrap a plan that has caused international alarm.
The Japanese government asked for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council after the rocket flew over its territory.
State Department spokesman Fred Lash confirmed the launch, saying it occurred at 10:30 p.m. EDT Saturday.
“We look on this as a provocative act,” said Lash.

Fas.org has already had top rocket scientists debunk the Taipo Dong 2 as a splice job barely able to support its own (empty) weight, and why the 1st test destroyed itself — the stages were never designed for the stresses of a two-stage missile.
So if the TD2 is a farce, and NK’s “hydrogen bomb test” only yielded 0.25 Kiloton, about what you’d get by a couple tanker trucks filled with ANFO, and the “destroy nuclear power plant for food and fuel aid” showed NK blowing up a 60-foot “cooling tower” when real cooling towers are 600-feet tall, what the Hilo is going on here?!

Well, I’ll tell you. Saudi buys US$T’s, Congress budgets Defense for 2/3rds of all discretionary spending off those Saudi US$T’s. Defense sells arms and equipment through Israel as intermediary to anyone in the world with cash. Israel gets a cut.
Israeli propaganda keeps the GWOT alive and in the Israeli controlled news media.
US hysteria supports Congressional budgeting Defense 2/3rds of all spending, or if not supports, hysteria and “you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists” fascism keeps the sheeple quiet. The hysteria and arms sales pushes up the price of crude oil. With the increased profits from crude oil, Saudi buys more US$T’s. Duhh.
So North Korea provides a little side show, a little bounce on the price of crude.
They’ve got it up to $52.50/bbl on the Mumbai and Afghanistan Pakistan schmeer, and when it hits $58/bbl, then Canadian tar sands will start again, that, my MoA’s, is where you want your money, in Loonies, because the world is pulling out of US$T’s, and Chinese have no way to buy more, which is why Fed is buying the Treasury US$T’s.
That single news datapoint should have told you everything you need to know.
Peak US$’s. It’s as simple as that. Snake eating its own tail. Spiraling oil prices to pay for US$T’s, deficit down more Defense arms and equipment to make more GWOT3, to spiral up the price of oil, then Russia comes online again, and Iran, Saudi has to buy more and more US$T’s, but higher and higher price of oil crashes US economy.
e.g. Gear up, flaps up, trim elevators, trim pitch, and get hell out of US$’s!

Posted by: November Zulu | Apr 5 2009 7:02 utc | 49

from what i have gathered, this angry chinese guy used violence to address personal frustration, and i don’t think, anna missed, that you are saying anyone who uses violence to address a grievance fits your definition of terrorism.
What I’m saying is; this angry chinese guy used violence against an unassuming group of people to address personal ideological/political frustrations to make a public/political statement about it. So, anyone who uses violence in such a manner to address a grievance, would fit my definition of terrorism.
Because the word terrorism has been so front loaded as a propaganda signifier it seems better to separate it from intent or motivation altogether and specify it as a specific act in itself. And then take that specific act and expand it to all comers, from the collective state all the way down to individual person(s) that utilize that mode of action. By the same token, it makes similar sense to expand the definition of torture to include the use of Tazering. Expanding, or universalizing these definitions has the added advantage of curtailing their use as a propaganda tool in that their use then trends toward the disarming character of ubiquitousness.
But nonetheless, this problem of loner inspired mass killings will no doubt continue to escalate in step with the economic woes, in the U.S at least – so I’m not against some new paradigm or set of definitions that isolate the problem. Which should become more evident as a specific American problem when other countries in similar duress fail to exhibit the same symptoms. Maybe something like American Exceptionalist Auto Immune Syndrome, for starters.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 5 2009 7:03 utc | 50

Copeland, with all due respect your take is the very narrative that I’m arguing against – as it is supportive of the overall official narrative, to sweep such events under the rug as neither a variant of “homegrown” terrorism or systemic social breakdown, assigning them instead to being simply examples of aka “crazy” or aberrant behavior. This in effect reduces the cause for such events to the kind of amnesia that we’re on the other hand, quite used to accepting. You do however, acknowledge the possibility that his motivation was informed by the effects of propaganda over the air waves, which at least hints at an ideological agenda template that informed his decision to go on this particular rampage, in this particular manner – as if other modes of expression were rejected. Which of course, indicates a culturally preferred method of expressing revenge, outrage, or hopelessness, as opposed to other more benign channels. We’re fooling ourselves about all this if we fail to see that this type of reaction to events is an outgrowth of right wing authoritarian honor based social culture where revenge, even anonymous revenge, is the ultimate retort to dishonor. This much Wong, along with the Virginia Tech shooter, share a common bond with the southern red neck honor culture.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 5 2009 8:41 utc | 51

“We’re fooling ourselves about all this if we fail to see that this type of reaction to events is an outgrowth of right wing authoritarian honor based social culture where revenge, even anonymous revenge, is the ultimate retort to dishonor.”
First, the right doesn’t hold the monopoly on authoritarianism or even honor for that matter… the left, at least in america, is partially responsible for making people feel helplessly trapped as they try to control our behavior through regulation as much as the right does.
From my glasshouse precariously perched upon an ivory tower, I look out towards the distance and I can see Hollywood’s liberals making movie after movie glorifying guns as the answer to every solution… This constant diet of make-believe violence does more to promote rage than it does to prevent it. As a young man I’d leave some movies so full of piss and vinegar that I’m amazed I never went on some sick wilding spree afterwards.
I think whatever it is that makes the human animal snap, and become murderous, has it’s roots deep within our reptilian brain and knows nothing of politics; only rage.
There is something hard-wired into the human animal that enjoys violence and will actually bond with others whom they participate in violent acts with… kind of an opposite to lovemaking. This isn’t as crazy as it seems when you think of the human animal’s ancestors hunting in a pack, killing to eat. The killing instinct is a dark holdover from these times but it kept our species fed.
I have hardcore vegan friends that probably would die-off if they had to eat meat, they don’t seem to have the gene that would allow them to eat anything they killed… or even kill anything for that matter. I’d say these people are a rare mutation–like left handedness , but I also think our diets might affect our killing instinct too.
I say this because I was a vegetarian for about five or six years, and I was surprised how much mellower it made me… I was young enough that I still had lots of hormones charging through my body so I wasn’t completely Zen, but my thoughts were less aggressive. I was less inclined to immediately think of physical retribution as the solution to any problem.
Not that I was violent or am violent in actions, but my Leo thoughts will tend towards wishing I could toss lighting bolts for silly offenses like getting cut-off in traffic, listening to lying politicians… stuff like that. And once I began eating meat again, that mellowness wore off, but my age or the minor wisdom I’ve gained has helped me let stuff roll off my back.
Violence is something we’re unfortunately going to be living with. Remember that the great passion that allows us the human animal to kill has also been channelled into some amazing art and other activities that aren’t psychotic, antisocial behavior.
“If I exorcise my Devils well my angels may leave too, When they leave they’re so hard to find,”sings Tom Waits who understands man’s darker side quite well.
If we want to stop violence we need to stop using it. Seems pretty straight foreword doesn’t it… Just try telling it to the government; any government.

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 5 2009 11:54 utc | 52

so I’m not against some new paradigm or set of definitions that isolate the problem. Which should become more evident as a specific American problem when other countries in similar duress fail to exhibit the same symptoms. Maybe something like American Exceptionalist Auto Immune Syndrome, for starters.
yes, new terms to reflect the evolution of violence and its disproportionate use by disempowered individuals because US propaganda has obliterated the objective meaning of terrorism, and in order to use the term effectively, one would need to wrestle its misuse from the state in order to reestablish objective meaning. daunting.
this relatively new phenomena is a cultural expression of a deep sickness, and it is spreading, as another comment indicated, to places like Finland and Germany, so it might be important to try and understand why these things are happening. for example, it might be argued that the sensationalist urges of the media provides part of the motivation, and is therefore a critical component that needs to be examined.
unfortunately the rapidity of these new link threads and the amount of information they offer doesn’t support in depth discussion.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 5 2009 15:29 utc | 53

david, the left, at least in america, is partially responsible for making people feel helplessly trapped as they try to control our behavior through regulation as much as the right does.
regulations from the ‘left’ are (supposedly) there to curtail or prevent crime or unfettered exploitation of our labor and resources. i feel more trapped by the noose of deregulation that allows the few to control the masses. it is deregulation that allows banks to exploit. deregulation that would allows any nutjob to carry an uzi. deregulation that allows chemical plants to spew their toxicities all over our environment. deregulation that creates environments that place certain species on the endangered list. what regulation prevented this guy from getting a job? you mean a green card? what specific regulation from the left is trying to control your behavior making you feel trapped? and who again are you referring to by ‘left’. the socialists? do you think the left is going to regulate away your free speech? are they going to regulate opportunity for minorities or underprivileged poor to equal education at the expense of rich white children’s position at the top of the list for entry into the best schools?
I look out towards the distance and I can see Hollywood’s liberals making movie after movie glorifying guns as the answer to every solution
hollywood’s liberals? is that who produced rambo? i think it is a myth hollywood is run by ‘liberals’.
lambent1 to annie, nothing about Gilad Atzmon suggests self-hatred to me
by ‘camera’ i meant Jewish Press Daily or Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America. they call non zionist jews anti semetic and ‘self hating’. it is just meant to silence people into submission. i didn’t mean Atzmon was self hating.

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2009 16:11 utc | 54

annie, I believe you answered your own post… Who regulated the things you indicated are being deregulated? Something can’t be deregulated until it is first regulated. I agree there are several areas that would benefit from honest, across the board, equal regulation but we’ve seen how effective that is…
Hollywood is certainly “left” enough so the millions of dollars they toss to left leaning causes aren’t thrown back.
And I think that there is/has been a lot of harm done to minorities through government programs designed to help.
do you think the left is going to regulate away your free speech?
it isn’t Lyndon LaRouche types that want to jail holocaust deniers… or get red in the face when some hick says niger. All though those red states get red in the face when you start burning flags… Fuck it, a pox on all their houses!
I’m not saying this personally to you… I think that most of us MoAns could get together and hash-out a pretty fair and even-handed political platform… but our problems stem not from those here, but from the millions of folks who wear the labels of Right or Left without thought to anything more than the label.
So when I talk of the left, I talk of the political power base in america that thinks of itself as “left” but in actions is more… I don’t know, what do you think the left is? Ditto for the ditto-heads… Just a bunch of fucking labels that are as easy to change as golf shirts.
Unfortunately the average jane and joe isn’t talking about politics on the level of MoA and these are the ones I’m describing using these labels.
And if just one of those folks in that clinic had a legal weapon and a fire arms training course the outcome of that tragedy might have been far less tragic…

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 5 2009 16:53 utc | 55

Hollywood is certainly “left” enough so the millions of dollars they toss to left leaning causes aren’t thrown back.
actors don’t control hollywood or determine what we watch at the movies. i am curious how you would answer this question regarding your assertion. what specific regulation from the left is trying to control your behavior making you feel trapped?
I believe you answered your own post… Who regulated the things you indicated are being deregulated?
are you implying banks being regulated makes you feel trapped? do you resent regulation to protect the environment? because lots of deregulation makes me feel trapped, like deregulations of air quality. bad water makes me feel trapped. certain chemicals make me feel trapped. i am not saying all regulations from the ‘left’ are good, but i am curious to know which of these regulations ‘ make people feel helplessly trapped as they try to control our behavior

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2009 18:38 utc | 56

it isn’t Lyndon LaRouche types that want to jail holocaust deniers.
hardly

LaRouche has also been accused of Holocaust denial. In 1978, LaRouche wrote (in “New Pamphlet to Document Cult Origins of Zionism”, New Solidarity, December 8, 1978) that only 1.5 million Jews died during World War II:
It is argued that the culmination of the persecution of the Jews in the Nazi holocaust proves that Zionism is so essential to ‘Jewish survival’ that any anti-Zionist is therefore not only an anti-Semite, but that any sort of criminal action is excusable against anti-Zionists in memory of the mythical ‘six million Jewish victims’ of the Nazi “holocaust.”
This is worse than sophistry. It is a lie. True, about a million and a half Jews did die as a result of the Nazi policy of labor-intensive “appropriate technology” for the employment of “inferior races”, a small fraction of the tens of million of others — especially Slavs — who were murdered in the same way Jewish refugee Felix Rohatyn proposes today. Even on a relative scale, what the Nazis did to Jewish victims was mild compared with the virtual extermination of Gypsies and the butchery of Communists.

i think it is social conservatives who try to slap us w/social regulations, not the ‘left’
as for who i think of as the left in congress, not much! the progressive left is represeneted by kucinich, louise slaughter, jim mcDermott, lynn woosley, people like that. conyers. when i think of the left in america i think of amy goodman, mother jones magazine..people, movements, but not necessarily in power. neither the dems or the gop are ‘left’. they are pushed way to far to the right.
a friend of this guy who just killed the cops said he was fearful obama was going to take away his guns. it this the sort of entrapment you’re referring to? trapped by gay marriage peace freaks who want gun control?

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2009 19:14 utc | 57

Actors certainly have a say in hollow-wood; do they need to take the parts that they do. And as for hollywood money I think there are several studio heads that give big money to democratic causes… as well as members of the actors guild.
And I think if you would read my post closer you’d see I answered you questions. At least I thought I did regarding regulation… I didn’t say I didn’t want any regulation, but that it needed to be done fairly and across the board honestly. Right now it appears our regulations are hollow and without teeth, except where it benefits business.
I suppose this is my problem with rules in general… when they are made, I like to believe that it is usually with a good intent, but at some point most rules become perverted by business/government interest and are used as a club against competitors rather than an honest way to keep the public safe.
I guess another way of putting it is, are you better off because of the government and its rules or do they hinder you from living a normal life? I think looking at the way the country is now, government and its rules have failed us… so do we make yet more rules or do we try something else?
annie how many laws do I need to exactly list so that you’ll see my point? 10, 20, 1,000? there are examples of stupid rules from both sides of the aisle that cause problems, and make me feel trapped by my government. Our morality laws for one, smokin’, drinkin’ fornicatin’ type laws that tell me what I can ingest, what I can watch and who I can screw.
I guess I should ask you annie, when was the last time you ran afoul of our legal system? Do you have any experience sitting in courtrooms and listening to people who’ve ended-up on the wrong side of the law?

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 5 2009 19:30 utc | 58

A bit on Hollywood: The 25 series was made by far right folks. While the main actor of “Lord of the Rings” is on the left, the movie itself is a quite racist entertainment. Painting Hollywood as left is simply simplistic.

Posted by: b | Apr 5 2009 19:35 utc | 59

annie how many laws do I need to exactly list so that you’ll see my point?
one. just one specific regulation from the left you feel tries to control your behavior and possibly makes you feel trapped?
i understand what you are saying in general regarding regulations but the right and the left have different priorities regarding regulation.
so if you could name one. in effect would be helpful for me to see your perspective, as opposed to la rouche rumors.

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2009 19:44 utc | 60

Painting Hollywood as left is simply simplistic.
i know, it is like calling the media ‘left’. it is a common refrain from the right, largely unsubstantiated IMHO. sure there are lots of actors from the left, but taking a role in a rightwing TV series like 24 (as did sutherland who comes from a progressive left family in canada) does not make hollywood ‘left’. the main studios are for the large part controlled by zionist. people like steven spielberg might be considered ‘left’ by some people, but he’s as zionsit as you come. there is nothing ‘left’ about zionism.

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2009 19:50 utc | 61

Actors certainly have a say in hollow-wood; do they need to take the parts that they do.
not taking a part is a production is making a statement, not having a say in the production.
I think there are several studio heads that give big money to democratic causes… as well as members of the actors guild.
possibly. i am just wondering what causes those may be that regulate in a way you find oppressive.
And I think if you would read my post closer you’d see I answered you questions.
not really. i am not trying to put you on the defense so much as trying to pin you down on the kind of ;eftist regulation you think oppresses society or individuals to the degree they would feel trapped. it is my impression most regulation supported by the ‘left’ is designed to protect people from the interest of unfettered capitalism.

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2009 19:56 utc | 62

I do feel that people who desire gun control are doing so for the wrong reasons. That they don’t fully understand, or even take the time to read anything other than the brady website. Unfortunately, the gun lobby is represented by the NRA, which shoots itself and its members in the foot with some of their more outlandish proposals.
I think you and I are closer than you think on the issues… I don’t care if guys or women want to get married to each other, or to their freakin’ dogs. I think only fools need the state to “sanctify” the “institution” of marriage anyway.
Have you ever been to Colorado? I can only say that we’re different out here, that it isn’t easy to pigeonhole us into the typical red staters. I voted for Cynthia McKinney… I never voted for a bush or a clinton or any other mainstream turds floated. I like some of the things Dennis has said and I think he is one of the few lawmakers in D.C. with any sort of balls now that Cynthia has been ousted.
As for Amy Goodman, I’ve taken the time to see everyone of her stops in the past five years in Paonia… Even got her to sign a copy of her and her bother’s book. I’m not a knee-jerk conservative kook at all, but I don’t agree with a lot of the left’s theory either. I live in a fantasy world in my head where everyone does what needs to be done to keep everything nice and everybody happy.
If everyone would just pick-up one or two pieces of litter everyday… we could move foreword from there.
I guess that’s the biggest difference between me and the left is that I feel it’s better to use society to shame those who do wrong; that it is important to grow a social structure that understands right from wrong and acts because of these ideals rather than because there is a piece of paper that says “no”.
I think that I feel there is a great need in our society for a strong social net supported by the population and of course business. Socialism is best when it address those parts of society we can all agree on like infrastructure repairs, health care, retirement… anyone with half a brain can see these are most cost effectively done socially. And I agree we need to address environmental issues, poverty issues – the sorts of things governments can do better than the private sector… But at some point there becomes so many rules that to enforce them fairly and equally become impossible. So what should be done about that problem?

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 5 2009 19:56 utc | 63

But at some point there becomes so many rules that to enforce them fairly and equally become impossible.
so i am understanding from your answer that you think the regulations we have at the present time for gun control are repressive?
people who desire gun control are doing so for the wrong reasons.
that is a lot of people so i can’t speak for them all. i think the gun lobbiest have the upper hand here tho, clearly and we don’t have much to fear in terms of guns becoming too regulated in the near future.
so this is your example of current legislation from the left that you feel is too oppressive?
hmm

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2009 20:35 utc | 64

david, as i am sure you know this is a common complaint from the right. they like to regulate themselves. they also promote private companies regulating them, their friends. this has been a favorite play of the bush administration, having argriculture regulate itself, the fda..etc. you hear it all the time like some big scary over regulated nightmare. the favorite of course being gun control. but i don’t think regulation over taxes people as it stands today. i think we need more oversite especially since we have corporate personhood and corporations have individual rights. who can fight against that? it wipes out the finances of towns going up against them. so what i hear is the noise machine from the corporations who support right wing radio scarring up the masses to come out and take a stand against their best interests in the name of ‘freedom ‘ and ‘liberty’ when what they are really fighting for amounts to freedom for corporations to enslave you. when you look at what is, in reality ‘trapping’ people how one defines entrapment, low wages enslave a person to perpetual servitude.
anyway, i’m off for the evening.. ciao

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2009 20:44 utc | 65

I’ll answer this, maybe you’ll check back…
Yeah the whole corporate person-hood is bullshit! corporations (from the little I understand) were originally supposed to be chartered for 30 years then the charter would end and the company broken-up… I’d have to double-check exactly how it was supposed to work… obviously it doesn’t. No, I’m not for corporate citizenship, not at all!
And the problem with regulation is as you state; just because you don’t feel the gun regulation is over-baring, doesn’t mean I feel the same way.
Which of us is “right?”
I’d answer we both are! You probably feel the regulations are too lax; I’m just guessing at this, trying to continue the conversation a bit further… And I feel they are too oppressive and becoming worse, not better. But this is something that we each have an opinion upon; Do you feel your opinion about this particular subject is more valid than mine?
What works for you might not work for me… And today your team may be winning and so I’m forced to follow your team’s rules… Then my team wins and you’re forced to do something you don’t agree with. There will be give and take in a healthy society… I’m not such a child as to believe that I should get my way all the time… but why should I be punished because others have made stupid choices?

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 5 2009 21:52 utc | 66

It’s hard to argue with perceptions that are now ingrained into the culture of the heartland. Fox News wears the right wing label and Fox Studios wears the left wing label. The fact that both are owned by the same person rarely enters the conversation. While the people argue over liberalism and conservatism the owners loot the country. How convenient is that?

Posted by: Sam | Apr 6 2009 0:28 utc | 67

We’re drowning in minutia as criminals float by laughing…

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 6 2009 0:46 utc | 68

@anna missed
I’m not failing to see what this kind of violence is, as an example of social breakdown. But to what social fabric did Mister Wong attach himself? The alienation preceeding such an act of violence is the signature of such crime. Terrorists, whatever else you may say about them , are wired to others of like mind, are part of a social fabric, as they identify with retribution which in their own minds is owed to their oppressors on behalf of a group consciousness and committment to others. If we call people terrorists, it probably means in today’s context, that our political/police/military capacity to harm them is considerably greater than their capacity to do us harm. The harms our leaders inflict on their people is every bit as viscous, and lethal, as the methods our leaders deplore as “terroristic”.
Sectarian violence, gang violence, extreme religious violence represent crimes of strong affiliation; this is something of a different order, than crimes committed by an individual whose personality fractures under stress, who is driven to lash out with a homicidal rampage.

Posted by: Copeland | Apr 6 2009 0:54 utc | 69

Guess we’ll have to disagree on this. I simply can’t follow the logic of an individual act of terrorism being different than on committed on behalf a group – since no person, no matter how alienated is still a participating member of society. Mr Wong was apparently frustrated by his job loss, jibing by others in his social circles, and paranoid about his guns being taken away. He then took an extreme action that reflected this frustration. The same could be said about Mr Poplawski who killed 3 police officers yesterday in Pittsburgh who knocked on his door. He also was feeding and responding on the “Obama is going to take you’re guns” hysteria propagated by the right wing. Both acted independently. Both acted in reference to a shared social/political agenda, as a statement in effect informed by those political/social agendas.
Certainly in the practical sense, these types of terrorism are a far greater threat to the life and limb of the average person in the U.S. than the exotic extremism of Islamic Jihad. The reason we see no official recognition that the above also fall under the definition of “terrorism” is that the inspiration for these acts are regularly presented in the media, the movies, and pop culture as a patriotic, if not heroic individual reaction to some unnamed social injustice perpetrated by big brother.
As a matter of fact, I can’t think of one (1) example of a recent domestic act of terrorism initiated by an individual that is in any way connected to leftist principals – while virtually all of the other cases are connected if not covertly promoted in some way to the political and cultural right. All I would say, are rightist symbolic revenge killings.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 6 2009 2:25 utc | 70

It seems problematic to describe Mr. Wong as a terrorist; you may have a better case for using the term to describe Poplawski, as it appears he may have been incited to murder by the “Obama will take our guns” misinformation that comes from a right-wing extreme perspective in this country. Mr. Wong did not cling to a political fringe of opinion like Poplawski, he was not a maven of military glory, or a failed candidate for the Marine Corps, with a huge tatoo of an eagle spread across his collarbone. With Poplawski is easier to trace the fault lines of a familar demented tribe.
I agree that there is no contemporary leftist domestic equivalent to the likes of Timothy McVeigh, on the right.
Is Wong’s volatile crime, committed essentially against people like himself, on the same order, or of the same type, as McVeigh’s bombing against those he saw ideologically, as enemies? I simply think it’s an abuse or misuse of the word, terrorist, to describe Wong with such a term. Would the husband who goes beserk in a domestic killing, be a terrorist when he kills his whole family and himself?
I agree that a terrorist from America’s religious or political right is a more probable threat to us, than are Islamic extremists on our city streets. I think one weakness in your argument is that the word itself, terrorist, is used too loosely.

Posted by: Copeland | Apr 6 2009 3:43 utc | 71

anna missed: you’ve done an excellent job articulating your opinion, which in turn has caused me to really think about mine. i’m willing to concede that because both Wong and Poplawski, though from very different backgrounds, knew their violence would be sensationalized by our blood-lusting corporate media, then their actions are political acts; terrorism.
but i think it’s too early to say that both men acted in reference to a shared social/political agenda. i also don’t think the reason we see no “official recognition” that these violent acts are acts of terrorism is because inspiration for these acts are regularly presented in the media, the movies, and pop culture as a patriotic, if not heroic individual reaction to some unnamed social injustice perpetrated by big brother.
maybe you could site some of the other incidents you were thinking of. the one that pops up in my head is that kid who shot up Virginia Tech, and i certainly don’t think he was engaging in “rightist symbolic revenge killings” Of course maybe we should leave school shootings out of this, as they may be a different beast altogether.
i’ll say it again, there’s something about spring that seems to make people more prone to go berserk. today they reported some guy shot his five kids in a trailer park, then himself. for the last three days it’s been a new story each day. fucked up.
you might have the technical argument wrapped up, anna missed, but for my own understanding, i don’t see the benefit of labeling both domestic gun rampages and acts of Jihad as terrorism. sure, if one of them is labeled as an act of terror, i can see why the other act should be labeled the same, but i also think each act has its own unique context, and if we’re trying to understand why this violence exists, and is escalating, then using a propaganda term like terrorism seems counterproductive.
anyway, i appreciate the dialogue.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 6 2009 4:33 utc | 72

I take the point that these cases differ in both degree and magnitude, as the case against Mr.Poplawski is more clear than the one against Mr. Wong, and how either of these stack up against the 911 attacks (assuming they are as advertised). This why a specific criteria is necessary. Terrorism, if it’s to be a meaningful word, should be an equal opportunity definition, exclusively of the act itself, so that neither motivations or largess can be used to politicise the act selectively for propaganda.
The case against men who kill their families – two different five dead killing sprees this weekend alone – is probably the most difficult to consider under this evolving definition of “terrorism”, but because it would be the most pristine and reduced example, I’ll give it a shot.
Without getting into many variant family situations, for the sake of argument lets just say that the family members (especially children) are otherwise innocent victims and likely as unaware as any victim of terrorism would be to the fate being propagated upon them. At any rate, the difficult part of the act, because it is so deeply personal, is to assign it a socio-politically driven motive beyond a personal act for personal reasons. Man snaps, kills family, no one knows why, tragedy, case closed.
However, if we consider that family structure is itself a socio-political structure, the the act itself may indeed constitute enough significant adherence to shared ideology to qualify as a motive, method, and desired result as a political statement. Following from Lakoff’s red/blue family model, or the primary distinction of families that adhere to either a “negotiated commitment”(blue) family, or an “inherited obligation” family” (red) – we see that the inherited commitment family structure is authoritarian based and views roles and relationships as a set of mutual obligations, as something given and not chosen, well being is dependent on the ability to satisfy prescribed roles, and is seen as a duty as opposed to an option. Because such a structure is dependent upon conformity to preset obligations and expectations, punishment factors in as the primary deterrent, should the system be rejected.
It’s not hard to see that such honor based family structure is under enormous pressure, especially given the current economics and the socio-political failures of the model in cultural context. It’s also not hard to see that the threat of an ultimate punishment can be used as a harbinger veiled threat of action confirmed and illustrated in graphic terms by peers that have already made the sacrifice. None of which is lost on the media propagators, which celebrate the use of violence (for the same reasons) to shore up the larger political agenda.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 6 2009 8:18 utc | 73

anna missed: i waited out my initial response to this latest inclusion of domestic slaughter, and i’m glad i did, because it took a little while to distill.
i agree a specific criteria is necessary if terrorism is to be a meaningful word, and the realization that turned me toward your perspective is the role the media plays in sensationalizing, thus feeding the increased prevalence of mass murder as a tactic to catapult one’s dogma/grievance/frustration/break-with-reality onto the national stage.
the reason i’m glad i didn’t jerk my knee is because i wasn’t ready to acknowledge that the family structure is itself a socio-political structure which made it difficult to then acknowledge that the inherited commitment family structure is authoritarian based and views roles and relationships as a set of mutual obligations, as something given and not chosen
that the total rejection of an increasingly authoritarian system means annihilating your own children is a terrible understanding to acknowledge, but i’m willing to “go there” if it helps me extrapolate just a slight glimpse from the simple reduction ofMan snaps, kills family, no one knows why, tragedy, case closed. formula.
still, i can’t help feeling that this examination of what constitutes as terrorism is just scratching the surface.
*
i was chatting with Uncle $cam earlier tonight about the “new information” being reported about Wong’s killing spree, and he mentioned something (perhaps he’ll post a link) about a note describing “delusional,” habitual police harassment, and our shared speculation (considering this is the case getting the persistent media attention) is that maybe there are other, darker currents at work here.
i’m not able to elaborate at the moment, but i can say there’s a door somewhere, with stairs going down, and it’s dark.
somewhere down there they are doing things to people, and they’ve been doing it for quite awhile, and their methods have been carefully refined. who can say where their signature ends and our own psychosis begins?
terrorism.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 7 2009 5:14 utc | 74

Lizard is this the link to Wong’s note?
And would it be a tinfoil hat moment to wonder how a guy named Wong ended up in this mess… Wong; it’s just too easy to corrupt that particular name and this particular event into some really dark jokes… Is the universe laughing? Or someone closer to home?

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 7 2009 5:30 utc | 75

jesus, i hadn’t read that yet, David. that’s fucked. i think i’m going to just sit around and idly flick the tinfoil pinwheel on my tinfoil hat for awhile.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 7 2009 5:49 utc | 76

I suppose thats what insidious congress critter Michele Bachmann means when she says she wants “people to be armed and dangerous to the policies of the left”. Or in other words the policies of the black helicopter big brother police state Democratic government that wants to take your guns away and send you off to re-education camps for Islamic instruction. Amazing the dog whistle is so loud even hapless immigrant Wong could hear it.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 7 2009 7:51 utc | 77

A Manchurian Candidate?
A poke here… a prod there… and another immigrant proves what a good “american” he is… Nothing says good ol’ red, white and blue like a mass killing… Wounded Knee but with new actors in the role of victim… and oppressor.

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 7 2009 11:22 utc | 78

The Real Official Terrorist Threat Revealed

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 7 2009 19:01 utc | 79

anna missed –
Hang ‘um high! (the prosecution that is)

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 7 2009 20:29 utc | 80

Hate Speech and Domestic Terrorism:

After a night of drinking, followed by an early-morning argument with his mother, with whom he shared a Pittsburgh apartment, 22-year-old Richard Poplawski put on a bulletproof vest, grabbed his guns, including an AK-47 rifle, and waited for the police to respond to the domestic disturbance call his mother had placed. When two officers arrived at the front door, Poplawski shot them both in the head, and then killed another officer who tried to rescue his colleagues.
In the wake of the bloodbath, we learned that Poplawski was something of a conspiracy nut who embraced dark, radical rhetoric about America. He was convinced the government wanted to take away his guns, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reported. Specifically, Poplawski, as one friend described it, feared “the Obama gun ban that’s on the way” and “didn’t like our rights being infringed upon.” (FYI, there is no Obama gun ban in the works.) The same friend said the shooter feared America was “going to see the end of our times.”
[…]
“[d]epression and revolution” are what await America under Obama, and fears moving “towards a totalitarian state.” The country today sometimes reminds Beck of “the early days of Adolf Hitler.” Beck thinks that Obama, who has “surrounded himself by Marxists his whole life,” is now “addicting this country to heroin — the heroin that is government slavery.”
And it’s not just Beck. Appearing on Fox News, Dick Morris recently made a wildly irresponsible comment that looks even worse in light of the Pittsburgh law-enforcement slayings: “Those crazies in Montana who say, ‘We’re going to kill ATF agents because the UN’s going to take over’ — well, they’re beginning to have a case.”
[…]
When investigators went to Adkisson’s home in search of a motive, as well as evidence for the pending trial, they found copies of Savage’s Liberalism is a Mental Disorder, Let Freedom Ring by Sean Hannity, and The O’Reilly Factor, by Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly. They also came across what was supposed to have been Adkisson’s suicide note: a handwritten, four-page manifesto explaining his murderous actions. The one-word answer for his deed? Hate. The three-word answer? He hated liberals.
The only way we can rid ourselves of this evil is kill them in the streets. Kill them where they gather. I’d like to encourage other like minded people to do what I’ve done. If life aint worth living anymore don’t just Kill yourself. Do something for your Country before you go. Go Kill Liberals!
What Adkisson especially hated about liberals (“this cancer, this pestilence”) and what he hated about candidate “Osama Hussein Obama” was that they were marching America toward ruin: “Liberals are evil, they embrace the tenets of Karl Marx, they’re Marxist, socialist, communists.” Adkisson seethed over the way liberals were “trying to turn this country into a communist state” and couldn’t comprehend why they would “embrace Marxism.”

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 8 2009 6:16 utc | 81

Hey, folks —
First, i’d like to apologize to Lizard for being such an ass. I’m sensitive to certain stimuli, one of which happens to be anything relating to an implied Palestinian/Arab mentality. I suffer from a hyperactive brain, and reading Lizard’s comments i jumped from “Shooter in the U.S. targeting immigrants” to “Palestinian driving bulldozers in Israeli mid-day traffic”.
That’s my fault, and i shood’a curbed it. If it’s any use, Apr. 6 is my birthday and i’z 40 years old, then — and it wasn’t a happy day.
However, i think also part of the reason for my sensitivity is that i’m an expat. As an expat, it seems patently obvious to me that any citizen targeting immigrants for assassination — whether native or emigre — is making a political statement.
My comments should’ve been kinder to Lizard, and i’ve been humbled by his magnanimity. Thank you, L.
But having said that, i stand by my point. It was perhaps arcane, but here it is spelled out:
Some Palestinian guy is riding around on a glorified lawnmower, trashing mid-day traffic and destroying cars, and he’s gunned down. The U.S. media reports him as a “terrorist” — and i’m outraged.
41 year old Vietnamese immigrant guns down a room-full of new U.S. immigrants, and he’s called a crazy-man. No connection to terrorism is implied, nor even any gesture made in that direction.
That’s a double standard.
Now, my hyper-active brain can extend this double-standard out to quite a few relevant situations that are breathing and pulsing as-we-speak:
Iraqi gunners, suicide-bombers, and general gunned-down-by-Halliburton-mercs-teenagers would seem rather similar, in many (if not most) cases.
Afghani and Palestinian suicide bombers would, too.
Any Palestinian murdered just outside their house, or on a bulldozer would certainly qualify.
So, while i am truly sorry that i popped off like i did, in such a short manner, i don’t really feel as if what i was trying to say is invalidated.
And as an expat, i can easily see how a Vietnamese immigrant might listen in on Limbaugh, or Hannity, and buy into the whole right-wing, flag-waving “i’m better than the ‘Spics” gamble — and, when mentally imbalanced, take it upon himself to lash out at the perceived “lowlifes” who, so clearly, are undermining his/her beloved, newfound utopia.
Because most Americans are only between one-to-three generations native, they have a hard time seeing these things for what they are. My ancestors were Indian, Jamestown British, Georgia Prisoners and French Trappers; they were also Southern Socialist and Rebel Nationalists. I have a unique perspective on U.S. history that is shared by very few, and so i’m a rather difficult character to corral. My temper can be very, very long, or very, very short — it really just depends on which degree the sun rises, and nothing else.
So to Lizard: i’m sorry. But really: asserting that a murderous scheme aimed against new emigres is a-political is, really, non-sensical. It doesn’t matter if the guy’s a psychopath or not; clearly, what he fixated upon was their political standing. Yes, he was insane; but is there any other way you could possibly describe a Palestinian who, in protest, jumps up on a bulldozer? I think not, but the unfortunate truth is that our media more or less reports it as such.
To the rest of you: I’m sorry. I shouldn’t’ve clouded these waters with my bile, and i really do regret it. But beyond the bulldozer example, i’d like to point out:
The real problem, here, is that hopeless, spiritually desecrated people are used to carry bombs into the heart of civilian areas. The concept is really not so different from asking a young, bristling man to ride a rocket over a foreign country and drop bombs — in one case, death is guaranteed, in the other, extremely likely. In either, one is murdering a great many innocent people who have no way of fighting back.
That, essentially, is my frustration: let us say the Mullahs take advantage of hopeless people. Then in that case, what is really the difference between the young man who drops from the sky into a suicide mission, and the young woman who blows herself up in a crowded square? Really, nothing. Both are directed to kill themselves in defense of country; both do so, knowing they will not return (in the case of a rocket-rider, the certainty may be in question, but it’s equally unconsidered).
So really, the difference between a terrorist and a crazy person is this, and only this:
a terrorist is asked to take this action on behalf of their community/society/country.
A crazy person does it for themselves.
In acknowledging this — with this — we must recognize one more thing:
(and it is a thing Israel does not want recognized)
A terrorist is a member of a military, and is no different than a G.I. Private —
and that is the answer to b’s question:
This isn’t called terrorism because it was a crazy person, acting on his own. But what that implies is this:
Terrorists are military folk, fighting on behalf of their people and country. Each one is at least as honorable, dedicated, and respectable as the flag-draped corpses of uniformed grunts the U.S. military sends home each week.
And that’s why i got angry.
I’m sorry i was such an asshole, but:
fuck me —
i’m an angry son of a bitch.
(second try — sorry for the re-post)

Posted by: china_hand2 | Apr 8 2009 18:25 utc | 82

china_hand2: i appreciate the apology, and through my discussion with anna-missed, have come to see why my initial statement was indeed rather stupid.
we all have opinions and biases that emerge from personal contexts unavailable to the purveyors of our opinions, which leads to misunderstandings, overreactions, etc.
my own bias in refusing to acknowledge the double standard at work in NOT referring to the NYC shooting as terrorism comes from my own personal thinking about spring violence. calling it terrorism didn’t fit into the theories i’ve formulated, so i dismissed it.
i should add my own apology to b. i allowed his depiction of americans in another post (implying that we are somehow more prone to suspect nefarious intention behind smart grid technology, for example) to affect the point he was trying to make here.
anyway, i hope the discussion was enlightening. if nothing else, it demonstrated the difficulty of using a term that has been employed by states (not just the US) to justify the use of state-sanctioned terror campaigns. muddy waters, indeed.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 8 2009 19:15 utc | 83

A decade after Harris and Klebold made Columbine a synonym for rage, new information — including several books that analyze the tragedy through diaries, e-mails, appointment books, videotape, police affidavits and interviews with witnesses, friends and survivors — indicate that much of what the public has been told about the shootings is wrong.
In fact, the pair’s suicidal attack was planned as a grand — if badly implemented — terrorist bombing that quickly devolved into a 49-minute shooting rampage when the bombs Harris built fizzled.
Getting closer.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 14 2009 17:07 utc | 84

Closer, and closer yet.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 14 2009 18:34 utc | 85

Michelle Malkin – in reaction to the report, gets the honors on why the subject remains taboo. The report itself, a pdf file, is to busy to catch a link – interesting, on the timing of the report, finding its way on the news on the same day the wingers launch their astro-turf tea party.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 14 2009 18:48 utc | 86

anna missed-
Don’t forget it’s also near that mystical April 20th date the event happened.
It is terrible how the media glamorizes the young and the dead. The movies make it seem so easy… fight the good fight and die in your lover’s arms listening to her whisper sweet words as you die. No bills, no worries and the glory of dying for some “great” cause; a tearful cemetery scene where everyone gathers to say, “what a loss, ” and ” what a great guy,” and “he was such a hero.”
Sure beats worrying about applying for college.
Young disenfranchised men (maybe someday women too) need to have something to believe in rather than the cult of death that is promoted by angry old men. I think back to my teens when the world was upside down, hormones raging through my body and killing for the government was promoted as “positive.” While touchy-feely experiences (art, writing, inner reflection) are ridiculed by both peers and mentors. There are few programs that are geared to the sort of mental/physical experience young men need at this time. There are plenty of activities that prepare men for being soldiers, few that train them how to be self-aware adults, responsive to the needs of others, as well as being honest about their own feelings.
The cult of dying young was started by dirty old men who wanted less competition for mates and sent the young rowdy bucks off to fight “the good fight.” If their was any real sanity in the world, we’d send old guys off to fight… maybe then we’d be less willing to start stupid wars.

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 14 2009 19:53 utc | 87

jesus, they play us against each other so well. thanks for these links, anna missed. i was trying to make a point at a local blog that underestimating the right’s ability to capitalize on populist fear and anger is dangerous, and if they wanted to avoid the extreme right from using that populist anger to their advantage, the best thing to do is get ahead of the right’s criticism by pressuring Obama from “the left.”
but what no one seems to see, because their political ideologies are so blinding, is the use of different boogeymen essentially paralyzes any broader class-conscious movements from developing. where were right wing extremists for the past eight years when Bush was running roughshod over the constitution? and why can’t they see opposition to the patriot act wasn’t just “left wing” environmentalists and the ACLU, but people who knew the legislation can and would be used against any perceived domestic threats.
so now that Obama is in office, the extreme right thinks Obama will take away their guns. sure. meanwhile the elites are laughing their asses off. fucking ridiculous.
is there any way to transcend these political ideologies?

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 14 2009 20:41 utc | 88

secrecy news had a post on the dhs rpt today too – DHS Sees Resurgence in Rightwing Extremism
and notes that “DHS reportedly issued its own analysis of left-wing extremism earlier this year”

Posted by: b real | Apr 14 2009 22:30 utc | 89

i learned an interesting little tidbit today that struck me as rather coincidental, considering all this rightwing extremism talk. i had to visit a forestry building in downtown Missoula because they wanted to donate a bunch of office supplies to the non-profit i work at, and there was an unusual degree of security. as i was being led down bland corridors i mentioned the security, and the woman proceeded to inform me that the reason i had to show a picture id to acquire a visitor’s pass and put my bag through an x-ray machine is because this building was apparently one of the targets of Timothy McVeigh. Apparently one of the key players in the Ruby Ridge incident had an office in this building, which was enough for McVeigh to consider blowing it up. curious, isn’t it.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 15 2009 1:47 utc | 90

Since 9/11 there are a lot of very skeptical people that no longer find any label that fits them, other than “human.”
There were lots of right leaning people skeptical of bush, not beating the drums of war, but their voices as many other opposition voices weren’t heard. The MSM is a major propagator of this problem of perception, by ignoring these alternative views or dismissing them with what ever label will create the most bile from the most people.
With the recent Gaza horrors look at how perceptions are twisted so that even the protesters of Jewish decent are called anti-Semitic.
If you try and hold the big media accountable they tell you, “we report the news, you decide.” Which is the lie all the other lies are based on. The media doesn’t give you the news, they give you the propaganda. It isn’t what they report, but what they don’t report that make the difference.
The problem is that big money corporations own the media, the government and you & I. They own what we think, feel, how we act, who we love and who we hate.
Individually we are but gnats pushing against the buttocks of an elephant trying to make it move. As a group, we might become enough of an annoyance to make the creature want to swat at us, but our actions can’t change or even sway the course of this beast.
The only way we can make this beast vanish is to ignore it in every way we can… I let you think on that one a bit.

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 15 2009 2:16 utc | 91

DavidS, if you haven’t read Guy Debord’s Society of Spectacle, you should give it a spin. This is a new translation, which on a short read looks a little sharper than the earlier one. A rather amazing screed considering it was written in 1967 – as many other recent commentaries and narratives seem influenced by it, like Joe Baegant for instance.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 15 2009 2:42 utc | 92

anna missed-
Thanks, I’ll check it out. funny how so much of now has a link to then (1960’s)…

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 15 2009 2:56 utc | 93

anna missed- WOW!
Just the quote he uses to start the whole thing off is right on target;

“But for the present age, which prefers the sign to the thing signified, the copy to the original, representation to reality, appearance to essence . . . truth is considered profane, and only illusion is sacred. Sacredness is in fact held to be enhanced in proportion as truth decreases and illusion increases, so that the highest degree of illusion comes to be the highest degree of sacredness.”
—Feuerbach, Preface to the second edition
of The Essence of Christianity

and then to follow with this sentence:

In societies dominated by modern conditions of production, life is presented as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has receded into a representation.

Is it just me or is this like our money? Would it be true to say what we experience is actually a fiat experience? A mere symbol of living as opposed to the real thing?
If the rest reads like the first chapter… my brain’s gonna get a nice flexing and probably a pretty good stretching 🙂
Thanks I can’t wait to dive-in deeper.

Posted by: DavidS | Apr 15 2009 3:09 utc | 94