Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 7, 2009
U.S. Foreign Policy – “Here we go again.”

VP Biden today gave the first outlook on the Obama administration's foreign policy in a speech at the current Security Conference in Munich. The short version:

No change

Specifics:

– Missile defense in Europe will continue to be build.

We will continue to develop missile defenses to counter a growing Iranian capability, provided the technology is proven to work and cost effective.

The Iran line is pure bullshit. The missile defense the U.S. plans is to enable a nuclear first strike capability against Russia. Russia will have to fight this.

– On Iran the Bush policy of uncompromising non-talks will continue:

We are willing to talk to Iran, and to offer a very clear choice: continue down your current course and there will be pressure and isolation; abandon your illicit nuclear program and support for terrorism and there will be meaningful incentives.

– On Afghanistan this gem:

… the imperative of stopping the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan from providing a haven for terrorists.

These mountains are either in Afghanistan or in Pakistan. To define them as "between" makes them some extraterritorial neverland where no laws apply. A verbal trick to allow for unlimited war on the area.

– In general:

When it comes to radical groups that use terror as a tool, radical states that harbor extremists, undermine peace and seek or spread weapons of mass destruction and regimes that systematically kill or ethnically cleanse their own people – we must stand united and use every means at our disposal to end the threat they pose.

The sentence is no different than anything Cheney would have said.

So on all major foreign policy issues there will be no change at all. As William Pfaff recently commented:

The institutional rigidity of U.S. foreign policy has
been locked in place. The ideas – there are many – about
negotiations, local, regional, or multinational, seem ruled out.
Here we go again.

Comments

This is disappointing.
BTW, 11:11!

Posted by: Li | Feb 7 2009 16:39 utc | 1

Swoop:

As a State Department official explained to us: “The new Administration is not prepared to give Iran the benefit of the doubt on the nuclear issue. Unless they stop their enrichment activities, it will be near impossible for us to enter into meaningful negotiations.” This is not yet settled policy, but we do not see the prospects for dramatic change as being great at this stage.

Posted by: b | Feb 7 2009 17:23 utc | 2

There is nothing “illicit” (i.e. illegal) about Iran’s nuclear program. nothing, nada, nichts, zippo. This word has also been used by Obama and Clinton. They are all liars. The IAEA has repeatedly found Iran to be in full compliance with NPT safeguards.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 7 2009 17:41 utc | 3

Re. Europe needs protection from Iran.
Nobody bullshits better than an American bullshitter.
And no American bullshits better than Biden.
The protection from Iran is right up there with WMD, anthrax from Iraq, Iraq and al Queda, the Atta meeting with Iraqi intelligence, on and on and on…one steaming pile of American bullshit after another…
Of course, the Coca Cola whores of Eastern Europe lap up American bullshit like it was mana from heaven.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 7 2009 17:48 utc | 4

Where’s waldo and the rest of the Obama crowd when you need them?
Things will be rigid until they break — which, of course, they will.
I’m sure I know more about animal training than anyone around here, but I’ve never met an animal trainer who could get a shark to swim backwards.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 7 2009 17:49 utc | 5

only real surprise was biden’s brevity

Posted by: b real | Feb 7 2009 17:49 utc | 6

There won’t be any meaningful change toward Iran before summer election . Usrael currently using all available resources to influence election with hope of replacing Ahmadinejad with a pro US reformer.
There is no change and won’t be any change as long as US foreign policy is leased to Zionist regime.
.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 7 2009 17:50 utc | 7

By the way, I’ve always said that Biden was the Democratic Cheney. His policies and corruption have been just as bad. But Democraats always vote for their team!
I’m sure it works the same way in Europe despite all the protestations. Blair, Gordon, Sarkosy, Merkel, etc. It is really hard for me to see the difference between them.
But every speech Obama ever gave was full of small lies (“new american century”, etc.). Believing and voting for small lies gets you the big lies. Congratulations!

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 7 2009 17:55 utc | 8

Of course, the Coca Cola whores of Eastern Europe lap up American bullshit like it was mana from heaven.
Well, the whole lot of Eastern Europe will be an economic wasteland by this time next year; these idiots will see soon enough what good being slaves to the US, politically and economically, have done them. I mean, it took several decades for USSR to fuck them up this bad.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Feb 7 2009 18:03 utc | 9

The trick is to believe in nothing.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 7 2009 18:04 utc | 10

With the emphasis on belief.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 7 2009 18:05 utc | 11

by the way Egypt, seems to be getting very nervous indeed
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE51617J20090207
please spread this – judging from his blog the guy is ok

Posted by: outsider | Feb 7 2009 18:49 utc | 12

Inferring from what b has written, that Biden=Cheney is ridiculous. Talk about the death of nuance. But the usual commenters are making the leap. The polemic is clearly the thing that matters. Obama has kicked the oil and gas drillers out of Arches National Park in Utah; and when he signed the SCHIPS children’s health care into law, he made the comment that (I’m paraphasing) “This is what is done in a civilized country”.
A child can see the huge chasm that separates this administration from the one that preceeded it. The president who admits that he screwed up over a Cabinet appointment is not anything like G.W. Bush.
I am as alarmed as anyone here over Biden’s pronouncements about Iran and about support for missile deployment in Europe. These policies are dangerous and counterproductive and the democratic base needs to put increasing pressure on the administation to alter this approach. We need to be mending fences with Russia and the missile deployment is uncalled for. Also the contradiction in terms of realpolitik must be clear concerning the need for Russia’s cooperation with supply routes to Afghanistan, and the thing most likely to defeat Russian help, namely the missiles near their border.
A dynamic, intelligent president like Obama is not going to be ruled by a gasbag VP who is famous for talking out of his ass. And the so-called rigidity of those who are still supporting this president might be broken at some point; but it is less likely that those who are equating Obama/Biden to Bush/Cheney will at any point become less hysterical.

Posted by: Copeland | Feb 7 2009 19:14 utc | 13

@Copeland – the title of the post above points is U.S. Foreign Policy – “Here we go again.”
Now you come up with an example of Obama being nice and doing the right things on a domestic issue.
Biden in Munich is Obama’s voice on the issue. That speech has certainly be vetted throughout the whole administration. The policies exposed in it are the same than the Bush administration followed.
My Cheney comparison was specifically to the one quoted sentence.
There is nothing hysteric about this. Just the damning fact that there is no change in U.S. foreign policy.

Posted by: b | Feb 7 2009 19:33 utc | 14

my friend, copeland
biden sd what he sd. & it is to be condemned as a foreign policy. & watchhing the hysteric sarkozy & the east european whores jungle their jangle. what a sorry series of statements these supid people utter
every day a caliphate seems like a more dignified direction. i am joking but i am not. we are ruled by incompetents & barbarians

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 7 2009 19:36 utc | 15

@ b
I wasn’t saying that you were hysterical when you wrote that Biden’s pronouncement was one that Cheney could have made. It was Malooga who extrapolated from your comment, and wrote, “By the way, I’ve always said that Biden was the Democratic Cheney.” He once again jumps the shark, and goes straight for his pet thesis, that Obama/Biden=Bush/Cheney.
I hope you don’t think it’s OT to mention good things Obama does on the domestic front, because this speaks to his character. We are not being ruled by the demonic power that was in place before January 20th.
There is about Biden’s statement the puzzle that I mentioned in my comment. How can policy makers reconcile the overtures made to Russia for a supply route to Afghanistan, alongside the hostile intention seen in placing missiles in eastern Europe?
@r’giap
I agree and I would also condemn what Biden said as foreign policy.

Posted by: Copeland | Feb 7 2009 19:57 utc | 16

The trick is to believe in nothing.
With the emphasis on belief.

it is what they do, not what they say. so far, not a hell of a lot. one thing i notice tho..how come there is ALWAYS this caveat:provided the technology is proven to work and cost effective.
what does that mean???? and why can’t they manage to ever talk about the development of missile defenses w/out this caveat? who judges ‘cost effective’?

Posted by: annie | Feb 7 2009 20:24 utc | 17

Copeland,
domestic policies are like somewhat meaty bones for the masses. got to keep them from going restless, no. Does it speak to his character?
If it does, then what is his foreign policy saying about his character?
These insights provided by Biden are official policy and they were to be expected. One just has to read Obama’s speeches. USA above all, and if not with us, against us, and so on and so on……..
Biden is no Cheney that is for sure, Cheney did not insist in politesse, manners and charm. He thought them useless.
For those still waiting on change, the only thing changing is the decor and the looks of the sales team, everything else stays the same.
And yeah, Obama is better looking than the shrub, a pretty boy, big smile, smiling at ya, all while selling the same toxic pile o’shit.

Posted by: sabine | Feb 7 2009 20:37 utc | 18

annie,
who judges ‘cost effective’?
those who make/sell the goods and make a profit on it?
Surely not you or me.

Posted by: sabine | Feb 7 2009 20:40 utc | 19

This digression into military procurement is relevant to
Galbraith’s warning since it provides a further demonstration of the
institutional incapacity of the United States international policy
establishment to change course, no matter how flagrant the need to do so; and this is perhaps the biggest of all the problems faced by
President Barack Obama.

These are Pfaff’s words, taken from the article cited by b–and Pfaff has nothing more to say about Obama in that article (as best I can tell).
Pfaff isn’t saying that Obama endorses and embraces the “institutional incapacity to change course”; he’s arguing that this incapacity “is perhaps the biggest of all the problems” that Obama “faces”.
How will Obama face it in the months and years to come? Pfaff doesn’t offer any predictions, though I suspect he might take Obama’s (and Biden’s) current pronouncement as “a step towards facing the problem”.
Pfaff, as usual, suspends judgment until he has the material to work with.

Posted by: alabama | Feb 7 2009 20:41 utc | 20

NO CHANGE, I cannot be bothered to visit Kos or Atrios to see they are same spinners as little green footballs.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Feb 7 2009 20:47 utc | 21

If you take Biden’s remarks, together with don Obama’s recent “Economic Recovery Advisory Board” selection (complete list at link) – then it’s pretty clear that all this big expectation of change talk is little more than a new paint job. Still heading in the same direction, by essentially the same people stomping on the accelerator. And as par usual, ignoring every danger sign along the way toward the cliff.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 7 2009 21:02 utc | 22

Strange that Biden forget to mention NATO’s glorious victory in Kosovo when he said this:
“For example, the United States will not recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states. We will not recognize a sphere of influence. It will remain our view that sovereign states have the right to make their own decisions and choose their own alliances.”
Must have slipped his mind.

Posted by: Dick Durata | Feb 7 2009 21:24 utc | 23

I don’t think I’m hysterical, Copeland. But honestly, you don’t know Obama personally, so you have no idea what his character is. You are just responding to the propaganda put out by his own operatives and carried on corporate media.
It is hard enough to judge character in people you’ve known for years.
Additionally, character is malleable. Every single one of us has done honorable things, but we’ve all also done despicable things. I know I have.
Here’s an example: Richard Nixon.
Boy, has history given him a bad rap. Apparently he had a despicable character. He was manipulative, insecure, calculating, berating, a liar, anti-semetic, an alchoholic, hypocritical, square, uptight, cursed, sweated, ranted, you name it.
And yet, he got us out of Vietnam, he really did. He negotiated with Breznev, made detente with China, established the EPA and OSHA, the Consumer Product Safety Comission, integrated the schools, set up an affirmative action plan, explored a universal minimum wage and universal healthcare, increased government payments to citizens by 2.6% (almost 9% of GDP), decreased defense spending from 9.1 to 5.8% of GDP, instituted revenue sharing with states and municipalities, and indexed Social Security to inflation, among other significant accomplishments.
Most of this was actually bolder and more towards the left than the Democrats. Outside of his policy in Southeast Asia, he won the abiding respect of McGovern.
He was one of the last Presidents who was his own man and not a front for a faceless cabal.
Obama will do none of this. In fact he, and his vaunted character will undo as much of this as he can.
He is already a murderer, is defending a fascist apologist for torture (Yoo), is engaged in escalating Bush’s faith-based crony shenanigans, and has given more unaccountable money to the wealthy than any other President in history except for Bush, and that’s only in his first month.
Let Mr. Character (who was friends with every slimeball in the Slimey City) really get rolling.
In the world of class warfare, Nixon improved the lot of the little guy, and Obama is looking out for those who invested in him.
Obama is just like Bush: He makes a big feel good speech about something — where the devil is in the details that the media never covers and people never hear about, and at the same time, he is screwing you with his other hand. Like his big speech about executive pay limits which has holes big enough to drive a custom built Hummer through.
I don’t care about Obama’s character or his personality. I don’t care what he says. All I care about is what he does.
And so far he has shown himself to be one big phony — about as substantial as his record in the Senate.
But, why listen to me, I’m hysterical.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 7 2009 21:43 utc | 24

Nuance! Fuck me dead I’m sure the Pashtu people lying crushed and bleeding to death under the collapsed remains of their family home can appreciate that the bomb which killed them is more nuanced than the ones dropped on their neighbors during shrub’s reign.
The people of gaza whose blockade and bombings are continuing under another name should see that nuance too. amerika is backing up Israel’s efforts to unseat the democratically elected Hamas government by insisting that the UN relief work, paid for by ordinary people who wanted the gazaains to get break, is actually distributed by a separate fatah staffed bureaucracy, thereby setting up Gaza for the misery of civil war.
I had to laugh at the eagerness with which Obama’s spruikers grabbed at the couple of crumbs Obama’s crooks threw to amerikans. In a week when the whitehouse has been conspiring to give trillions to the mob on Wall St. As long as ‘leftists’ in amerika will sell their asses for so little they can expect to get ass fucked by Obama’s employers for ever.
Nuance. ROFL. The nuance talk is even more desperate than the shit dem spruikers spewed forth when Clinton worked amerika and the world over for his bosses. We know how that went. There was no real retreat on empire, any issue that Clinton felt too weak to expedite was put in a holding pattern for his mates in the rethug party to initiate when their turn came. Eg Cigar Bill’s escalating siege of Iraq. If he wanted to he could have wound that conflict back and found out there were no weapons of mass destruction. Think of it. Not only the million kids who died from malnutrition and lack of medicine during the siege. Another million people would be alive that are dead today, those slaughtered by amerika during the invasion, not to mention the millions more who got crippled and maimed that would still be able bodied if only dem prez’s ever kept their word.
Four million plus would still be living in their homes instead of shanties in Jordan and Syria. That’s a lot of millions of people equivalent to more than the entire population of New York City who got fucked over by dem lying and incompetence. Blind Freddy can see the exact same thing will happen with Obama vis a vis Iran. He won’t declare war on Iran but the pressure will continue to be applied despite the fact we all know there is no nuclear weapons program. Obama talks about talking with Iran but every time an opportunity presents the administration reinforces the lies Israel gives them. Lies they know to be untrue.
Don’t say anything though cause if you do it means people may have to deal with reality and not some dalt wisney inspired fantasy world.
Because when we see the deceptions and quiet murders happening again it’s just because we can’t see the nuance.
Why do so many seemingly politically aware people get lost on the process rather than the outcomes? When Malooga argues that Obama/Biden will work to achieve the same result as Bush/Cheney dem supporters point to the different ways the two administrations ‘go about’ their business, thereby carefully ignoring the fact that however different their methods may seem to be the results will be almost identical.
This process bullshit eg who votes for who when how and with whose money, is a trap which has come to soak up energy and resources on meaningless debate, diverting amerikan citizens from the reality of the horror shows their government is creating.
Not drilling oil is easy, because it can always be revisited later, in fact Obama probably got told by his funders that the Utah fields were uneconomic with $40 bbl oil and grabbed the ‘initiative’ to look good.
Similarly limited funding for children’s health care something that can be subverted or rescinded with the flick of a bureaucrat’s pen. If Obama went “wham bam single payer healthcare ma’am” THEN he may have delivered something close to what he intimated with all his “Time for change” garbage.
But he won’t do that or anything else which would trouble the PTB, status quo, asshole in charge, or whatever we wish to call them because he is beholding to those pricks – everything he has did and said since election has been careful not to offend them.
Any of you dem spruikers wanna buy a slightly used bridge?

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 7 2009 21:50 utc | 25

Let me be more specific about Biden=Cheney.
What I mean’t was that both of them serve the same function of being “bad cop” to the President’s good cop. And both are pro insider players who know the ropes far better than their superiors. Both are capable of going behind their superiors backs if need be.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 7 2009 21:52 utc | 26

By the way, Nixon’s impeachment has nothing to do with Watergate — a very minor crime — all President’s have done worse.
Mark Felt, #2 in the FBI was Deep Throat and had an axe to grind after being passed over for the #1 spot when trans-Hoover left, and Nixon tried to get control of the unaccountable FBI. Bradlee of the Washington Post knew he was the source of the leaks, and knew that it was unethical in the utmost to treat someone with an axe to grind as an unimpeachable legitimate source.
In reality, what we saw were the forces of the “Deep” or permanent government push back against a democratically elected President, and this only a decade after the same “deep” forces offed Kennedy. With Nixon gone, the liberal social project begun under Roosevelt stopped abruptly, and under Carter, the Neo-liberal project of deregulation, privatisation, and race to the bottom began. The powers that be simply got restless and didn’t want to give anymore of the bank away.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 7 2009 22:03 utc | 27

If the economic decline is as swift and as steep as informed people claim it is; then I would think that foreign policy objectives will simply be eclipsed by our domestic problems.
Recently General Petraeus came to the White House to put pressure on the president to rethink the 16 month schedule for withdrawal from Iraq, that was a big part of Obama’s campaign promise. It was reported that Petraeus left in an unhappy frame of mind, and that Obama had renewed his instructions that the Chiefs bring him detailed plans for implementing the drawdown of forces in Iraq.
Biden’s speech harps on some fragile areas where the policy is simply captive to failed policy that preceeded it. The aims in Afghanistan are becoming entangled with the necessity of improving relations with Russia. Resupply from Pakistan is teetering on the brink of collapse. The president has announced that a detailed review of policy in this area is being undertaken.
The stupid policy keeps killing people in the Pashtun areas in Paskistan and Afghanistan, many of whom are unconnected to the Taliban; and the casualties are shrugged off by the insurgents, who are prepared to keep fighting till Kingdom Come. It’s this kind of dinking around that will surely risk touching off a regional war with horrible consequences, or else slowly set the stage for a calamitous defeat and humiliation of the US soldiers, followed by an inglorious retreat from Afghanistan.
The necessity of rethinking objectives falls to Obama and his people; and it is hoped that they don’t screw it up. There is no mission left in Afghanistan that can justify the loss of life or the bleeding out of our resources, while Americans are losing their jobs and the economy is in shambles. The decision to talk with the Iranians, could be productive too, and will be much saner than political entrenchment with an Israeli govt that is moving further to the right.

Posted by: Copeland | Feb 7 2009 22:12 utc | 28

copeland
i look not to these fools, the younk king & his merry crew
instead i look at the developments of my greek comrades – workers & students resistance growing intensely – the intensification has meant the govt of greece has been obliged to enter the dark arts (creations of fictive guerilla organisations, plans to censo or ban blog – insymedia etc)
in iceland & in france i look to the movement – the steady movement of resistance less informed by the hysteria of sarkozy but the depth of the crisis
i look to the people –
i expect fuck all – from leaders

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 7 2009 22:30 utc | 29

Copeland:
The Empire can kill people abroad AND starve them at home — both at the same time.
Plus, the military, as has been pointed out before, is a massive non-empowering, highly stratified, pathologically violent, obediance inducing, socially divisive, jobs program. Perfect. Divide et impera
First you say, “The aims in Afghanistan are becoming entangled with the necessity of improving relations with Russia.”
Then you say, “There is no mission left in Afghanistan that can justify the loss of life or the bleeding out of our resources, while Americans are losing their jobs and the economy is in shambles.”
What are the aims in Afghanistan? Powell never provided his promised dossier linking the Taliban to Osama to 9-11. (Tinker to Evers to Chance) I’ve seen no proof of this. But for Democrats, and Obama, Afghanistan is the “good war.” So, what, again, are the aims?
And for all of our European friends, what are Europe’s aims in Afghanistan? Could anyone explain that to me?
Since Europe is now larger, wealthier, and more economically and ecologically sustainable than the US, what kind of pressure, as b alluded to on a previous thread, could be brought to bear on European leaders to betray their publics? The US needs Europe more than Europe needs the US. Without Europe, the US is completely isolated, while Europe can ally with Russia and integrate with Asia as it rightly should. So what’s really going on here? Does this merit a thread of its own?

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 7 2009 22:37 utc | 30

The true sage of lbo-talk (Marvin Gandall) once observed, Marxianly, that external events and the “balance of forces” will determine US policy much more than any single person’s personality. Just stop worrying about what Obama will do, is already showing he can’t do, what the words of this or that advisor mean, etc.
The Russian foreign minister just announced that Russia will allow the US to transship non-military supplies to its troops in Afghanistan. Now something major must have been granted to Russia in return for that! Similarly, Iran is offering to help train and support Afghani government forces. Surely, they would not be doing this if they thought that Biden really spoke for US intentions.
Get over the idea that the US can dictate its own course in the world. It’s not uni-polar anymore.

Posted by: seneca | Feb 7 2009 22:38 utc | 31

The problem with “reset” is that the machine boots back into the same operating system.

Posted by: YY | Feb 7 2009 22:39 utc | 32

Given we as a nation of people are somewhat broke, and gonna get MUCH MORE broker economically and in all OTHER ways, I somehow don’t see us pursuing foreign policy at the point of a gun.
Not with China holding us by the balls econ wise, and Russia on ascent and STRONGLY defending it’s ‘Stans.
I don’t see us bombing from the air or fighting on the ground much anymore.
Supply lines in Pak/Afghan are a serious issue, and Iraq is just waiting to melt, with us there or not.
Nope. I don’t see us saber rattling too much more. I DO see more negotiation.
Time will tell, but I’ll go with less muscle, more mouth. *G*

Posted by: larue | Feb 7 2009 22:44 utc | 33

Additionally, character is malleable. Every single one of us has done honorable things, but we’ve all also done despicable things. I know I have.
Here’s an example: Richard Nixon.
Boy, has history given him a bad rap. Apparently he had a despicable character. He was manipulative, insecure, calculating, berating, a liar, anti-semetic, an alchoholic, hypocritical, square, uptight, cursed, sweated, ranted, you name it.
And yet, he got us out of Vietnam, he really did.

You’re right, Malooga, about character being maleable, Lincoln was a good example, but unlike Nixon, Abe was malleable in the direction of an improved character.
And what you said about Nixon is really a joke. Ending the war? Most of our casualties occured while he was president. And his legacy includes the Christmas bombing of Hanoi, and intrigue resulting in the bloody coup Chile, the murder of Allende, and the thousands butchered in the sports stadium in Santiago.
And there was the paranoid, megalomaniac Nixon, of Cointelpro, agent provacateurs,snooping, spying, and stalking John Lennon through NYC. I personally just remember my anger at LBJ, but when Nixon was president I remember anguish and my hair turning grey. In your paen to Tricky Dick, you left out all the things for which he faced impeachment.
There are a sufficient number of actions which could lead to a positive assessment of Obama:
A policy to shut down Guantanamo.
Reversal of odious Bush executive orders.
The public renunciation of torture.
A shaming of republicans during the signing of the children’s insurance bill into law.
Kicking the damn oil and gas drillers out of Arches State Park.
What I regard as hysteria is drawing always toward the demonisation of Obama, a president who, like Lincoln, could follow a path of moral improvement over time, as opposed to the idea you harp upon constantly, as you predict that he is already a monster and will only diminish with time.

Posted by: Copeland | Feb 7 2009 22:49 utc | 34

You are right about the despicable things I left out, Copeland. But he DID actually do all of those good thing I mentioned. No President since has come close domestically.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 7 2009 22:57 utc | 35

copeland,
sorry to be blunt
The necessity of rethinking objectives falls to Obama and his people; and it is hoped that they don’t screw it up. There is no mission left in Afghanistan that can justify the loss of life or the bleeding out of our resources, while Americans are losing their jobs and the economy is in shambles.
There never was a mission, just officialy announced slaughter of a people in far away lands.
but who still gives a shit about loss of usamerican resources, and americans loosing their jobs.
People that have nothing to do with either are dying and no one in usamerica gives a shit.
IF us america would not bleed money (they don’t seem to give a shit about their “finest”) everyone would still be happy to go along on the most excellent adventure.
What the fuck has any of those recently bombed afghani/pakistani farmer ever done to the US. Nothing!!!!!
So quite frankly the US Americans can go bleed some more money, as they seem to be animated only by money and not by real blood.
US americans do not give a dime about the rest of the world, they have proven this over and over again. Oh, yes, some go demonstrate and stuff, but they are the minority unfortunately.
The stupid policy keeps killing people in the Pashtun areas in Pakistan and Afghanistan, many of whom are unconnected to the Taliban;
it is not stupid policy that keeps killing people, it is bombs, from airplanes, from drones, big fat several hundred kilo heavy fucking bombs made in the USofA.
and the casualties are shrugged off by the insurgents, who are prepared to keep fighting till Kingdom Come.
like the soldiers of the us army/marines/navy that are being shrugged of by their officials. you fight with the army you have, instead of army you want.
It’s this kind of dinking around that will surely risk touching off a regional war with horrible consequences, or else slowly set the stage for a calamitous defeat and humiliation of the US soldiers, followed by an inglorious (WTF!!!) retreat from Afghanistan.
because the war is not horrible just yet, (someone should ask the liberated women, men and children), and the only horrible consequence is a regional war, not the war started by the US in – that is a good war?
Hopefully soon the humiliation of the US Army and their inglorious retreat from Afghanistan, Iraq, and any other oversees base will start. Sooner than later. To say in the words of Riverbend (may she be safe – where ever she is) take your smart weapons and your dumb soldiers and go home!!!
Obama rethinking any objectives – what makes you actually think he does? His words, his actions, his cabinets, his advisers, his shiny teeth?
There is no mission left in Afghanistan that can justify the loss of life or the bleeding out of our resources, while Americans are losing their jobs and the economy is in shambles.
There was no mission in afghanistan ever, just a country that was already destroyed by war, just the idea of easy victory after a humiliating terrorist attack in the states.
The decision to talk with the Iranians, could be productive too, and will be much saner than political entrenchment with an Israeli govt that is moving further to the right.
how generous of the usamericans to talk, lets bomb instead, Rambo, Rocky, Die Hard and Harder!!!!
and as for the Iraelis, they would be forced to live in peace with their neighbors without blindsided unwavering support from the elected US Madman/women.
Good grief, how many people have to die worldwide until people understand that war is not the answer, that there is no glory and honor in sending other peoples kids of to die, and certainly there is no glory and honor to be found in killing defenseless women, children, and men in their homes, thousands of thousands of miles away.
And to finish of, people are loosing jobs and their lively hoods worldwide, so again, why should anyone care about the poor usarmericans if the usgovernment does not care about them.

Posted by: sabine | Feb 7 2009 23:02 utc | 36

Maybe if we (all of the world) would erect monuments in the name of the slaughtered women and children instead of monuments for the dead soldiers, maybe then we would kill less.

Posted by: sabine | Feb 7 2009 23:13 utc | 37

Its clear that Obama/Biden have to keep talking tough or the wing-nuts will be all over them for appeasing
and I do’nt know where anyone got the impression that Obama was going to turn the USA into a big pacifist Swiss province overnight. Or that he has the power & authority to make these things happen instantly just because he wants it.
Obama is a skilled politician and he’s not going to try to knock-out the establishment with his bare-fists in the first round. Yes its horrible and people are going to die as a result but in real life, you want to stay focused on saving the entire village not just the individuals who need help first. He is not the Maytag man.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Feb 8 2009 0:28 utc | 38

I’m afraid I have to share the point of view of my khmer and laotian friends when it comes to defining nixon as a purveyor of peace in Indo China. Nixon saw the writing on the wall ie that a sustainable victory could never be achieved in Vietnam but despite that reality he secretly, illegally and cruelly bombed the bejeesus outta some of the most humane and culturally literate people I have ever met. The reason? He thought that acting crazy man might get him a few concessions at the Paris peace talks – it didn’t but many millions of people died, their ancient cultures got destroyed and still haven’t recovered to this day. I have been to both Laos and Kampuchea since they got neo-libbed and I’m afraid that comparing them with the two innocently charming nations I visited before nixon/kissinger’s bombing escapades is one of the most awful, disheartening experiences of my life.
The death of the ‘great society’ was inevitable the moment amerika moved into empire mode. The truism of domestic democracy being incompatible with foreign oppression is as correct today as it was in Roman times.
Truly free people seem to be unwilling to oppress others so if the leaders of a nation wish to expand the nation into an empire, the nation must also have domestic oppression created for the population to believe that there is something that invading, fighting and oppressing a foreign ‘enemy’ will free them from.
Since every prez including Nixon since Roosevelt has advanced the amerikan empire, it is delusional to consider any of them as either men of peace or protectors of their own people.
In fact Roosevelt’s actions just a year after amerika entered WW2, when he met with Churchill and Stalin in Tehran to carve up the spoils, the meeting where both Iran and Turkey’s futures were settled with no input from either nation, doomed whatever chance amerika had for an egalitarian society.
I doubt that for Roosevelt the great society was anything more than giving an angry and starving electorate the bare minimum that he could get away with until ‘other steps’ to dispel ordinary citizens’ electoral power had been put in place.
After all that is pretty much what has happened isn’t it? As people’s ability to effect the way their government goes about things has been reduced, amerikan citizens’ freedoms and rights have been whittled away pretty much in lockstep with the increase of amerikan citizen’s preparedness to do great harm to citizens of other nations.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 8 2009 0:35 utc | 39

copelan
i am completely unconvinced
the modern era – the era at which we are clearly at an end began after the coup by the u s imperialist & their puppets in chile & then with the implementation of the nazi economic policies of friedman
we did not listen to the cries of latin america – the day to day strugles & deaths of the people of chile, of bolivia, of nicaragua, of honduras, of guatemala, of venezuela, of brazil & of argentina, of el salvador of uruguay & of colombia, of paraguay of mexico
we did not listen to their cries when they were tortured & mudered to fill the pockets of citizens of the u s . the principal actors & benificaries were & remain americans
(& it is this mostly that i cannot put up with in the discourse of slothrop in his coldstorage that he call theory – is the absence of others – so fuck theory if it does not value the chilean steelworker, the panamanian fisherman, the honduran vendor – & i amconvinced all the theory of slothrop does not include them – theory is not an adornment or an elaboration but a tool, an arm)
what was it the m i r in chile used to say – the people, conciousness & the gun
we did not listen to the people of latin america when american military tortured generation after generation of these countr’s hopes & dreams
we did not listen when the functionaries of economic & social life tried to aplly their sordid structures all over latin america – creating greater inequalities, making oppression just another market, disembowelling the culture of each & every country
& the merchants who were covered in blood but brought with them brand names to sanitise the day to day slaughter
we did not listen to them. not really
one administration after another has been filled to the brim with those who see slaughter as standard operating procedure. & i don’t see any difference, today. us imperialism has dominated the globe but her concerns are not mine. i am completely unconcerned with the self absorption at the centre of empire. it was its greates frailty & in this moment of its economic downfall – that self absorption is particularly disgraceful especially as it is expressed by senators
it seems to me, dumb as i am – that now would be a good time for the empire to listen to those it once dominated, exploited, tortured & murdered
people may think their experiments are meagre but for me they are the hope of humanity – in fact the only hope
now, is the time to listen to agricultural workers in bolivia, petrol workers in venezuela, steelworkers in argentina, farmers in el salvador, peasant farmers in honduras – now would seem to be a good time to listen to them once & for all
& let us not forget the cuban people that u s imperialism have tyranissed for a century or more. a people, a community that is going to go through a great great crisis – needs to learn something from this people, the country of cuba can teach us all something about soul, about duende, about living about not being crushed by the endless circles of self
no i think this is the best possible time for the u s to strudy the open veins of latin america

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 8 2009 0:57 utc | 40

I agree, Did. Nixon was no saint at all, and what he did in SE Asia and Chile was unforgivable. But what he did domestically is so far to the left of Obama and Clinton that it is practically off the scale. But it was Bismark, wasn’t it, who pioneered the concept of the social compact at home so that war may be waged abroad.
Obama is a skilled politician
Obama may be a skilled orator, but I’m unaware of any political skill he may have demonstrated. Lyndon Johnson was a consumately skilled politician, so was Tip O’Neill — both able to be kind or mean, to do whatever was necessary to forge a coalition and to pass legislation.
Can someone here list Obama’s political accomplishments, since I appear to be entirely ignorant of them?

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 1:16 utc | 41

Can someone here list Obama’s political accomplishments, since I appear to be entirely ignorant of them?
he created his own political machine from nothing & got more people to vote for him than any other prez in history. Even if that does’nt count, he’s a vey effective political speaker & debater who writes his own speeches. His peers on both sides of the aisle mostly regarded him as a very effective legislator. He favors reaching out to his political adversaries and they seem to respond. It really looks like he got some skills

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Feb 8 2009 1:31 utc | 42

he created his own political machine from nothing
I’d say he had a political machine created for him…
History will decide how good he is; average people whose lives are ruined will be remembered as collateral damage or possibly innocent bystanders, neither label will lessen any their suffering.

Posted by: David | Feb 8 2009 1:51 utc | 43

Senator Clinton had a political machine created for her, and so did Senator McCain. But who won, and with what skills at his command?

Posted by: alabama | Feb 8 2009 2:12 utc | 44

wiki says:
In his first week in office, Barack Obama has done the following:
* Frozen salaries for top White House staff members. This is a largely symbolic act, but might be an important one.
* Set a deadline for the closing of Guantanimo. Some of his supporters would say this is a great thing because they believe it operates as something from the Dark Ages. Others believe this characterization to not be true, and that no plan will be put place to determine what to do with the prisoners. Time will tell.
* Fast-tracked the process to apply new fuel standards to 2011 car models AND initiated steps to allow California to set its own standards for auto emissions that are stricter than that of the Federal government. Again, this is a measure that some of his supporters hail as a grand step forward, while his detractors point out that it could provide an additional severe drag on the economy, especially in car manufacturing areas.
* Signed a detailed executive order to ban torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners.
* Asked the military leadership to engage in additional planning necessary to execute a responsible military drawdown from Iraq.
* Signed an executive order that restored a 30-day timeframe for former presidents to review records before they are released. It also eliminated the right for the vice president or family members of former presidents to do the reviews.
* Signed an executive order that requires that appointees sign forms saying that they were not hired because of political affiliations or contributions. This is far from an unbeatable measure, but is an important early step towards cleaning up governmental hiring policies. It is easier to prove someone lied when their signature is right next to the statement in question.
* Signed an order banning gifts from lobbyists and banning anyone from working in an agency they had lobbied in previous years. Promptly made the order toothless by immediately granting a waiver to a former defense lobbyist.
* Lifted a ban on giving federal money to international groups that perform abortions or provide abortion information.
* Granted his first TV interview as president to Al-Arabiya, a channel described as a “voice of moderation” to the Middle East. His supporters call this a very smart move to help angered nations and groups feel a bit less cast aside, and let them know that they need not resort to violence to be made a part of the world discussion. Detractors point out that this is the type of thing Neville Chamberlain would have done, though a TV interview and “the Munch Agreement” are leagues apart.
* Broke his promise to the American people that he would institute a policy of allowing five days of public comment before signing bills.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 8 2009 2:21 utc | 45

also:
White HouseAmid the news of Congress and the president expanding the State Children’s Health Insurance Program, another SCHIP move went largely overlooked this week: Obama issued a memo to HHS lifting some controversial enrollment rules imposed by the Bush Administration in August 2007.
Basically, the rules made it very difficult for states to use SCHIP for children whose families made more than 250% of the federal poverty level (somewhere around $50,000 a year for a family of four, we said in ‘07). Several states sued the feds over the rule.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 8 2009 2:26 utc | 46

The necessity of rethinking objectives falls to Obama and his people; and it is hoped that they don’t screw it up.
Copeland | Feb 7, 2009 5:12:06 PM | 29
No it does not! It falls on the people to bring pressure to change the policies. Obama is not going to do it on his own. Obama won elections by making deals with different groups starting from the labor to the DLC. These same groups will pull him to different policy positions and the group that has the bigger pull will control the policy.
Labor has more interest in internal policies and we have already seen some positive development in the those areas. The DLC was and still is Republican-lite and it will continue to push the foreign policy DLC agreed on with Pres. Bush. Biden and Hilary both will continue to push for the policies they always pushed for during the last 8 years. It is really up to the people to show their displeasure and disgust with those policy and in sufficient numbers to have some impact and force Obama’s hands on the foreign policy.
I often read Glen Greenwald and I think he has taken the right approach. Protest the policy, write against it, send emails, write letters, and make phone calls. That is how the policies are going to be changed not by hoping that Obama and his people will do it on their own.
There are so many competing interests in the US establishment that a President has to juggle around to get his policy going. President Bush did not get a free hand and Nixon was forced by the international situation to change policies. He too was reluctant to take the heat on Vietnam and left the office without ending that war. An unelected President had to pull curtain on that war. Obama will never risk him being known as the President who lost two wars, until he is fully assured that the majority of people in the US will support him in ending these wars. The myth that no US president has ever lost a war plays a huge part on any President’s mind. Bush never admitted that Iraq war was pretty much lost under his Presidency.

Posted by: Hoss | Feb 8 2009 2:28 utc | 47

gotta keep up the killing, and damn if O don’t make it sound good again. if you asked joe about why we’re blowing up shit in Afghanistan, he’d probably shrug his shoulders and say that’s where the terrorists are.
the more educated are indeed capable of “nuanced” conversation when it’s their candidate doing the killing, but point out that war is just part of who we are as a nation, and watch them rally to the tired ideals that are contradicted from the beginning with the genocide and cultural assimilation required to “tame” the wilderness, where those inconvenient savages lived.
at some point in the not so distant future the war toys will be needed at home, because the citizenry will finally realize too late they got hoodwinked, again, by the guy who was suppose to fix things, and we’ll start throwing unprincipled tantrums because our standard of living is going down.
sometimes it seems like no one here in the US wants to take any responsibility for what is happening, or try to understand why so many people in the world focus their hatred at the stars and stripes.
resistance? solidarity? nope, we’re still too mesmerized by dead words, like democracy, freedom.

Posted by: Lizard | Feb 8 2009 2:30 utc | 48

The Maňana People
This kind of talk, “Obama can’t do it by himself,” “You can’t turn a large ship around overnight,” is the kind of talk that people who are safe and solvent in comfy houses or apartments can throw around: full of justifications and excuses. And all of these excuses, no matter how intricate or clever, boil down to one thing: “Maňana.” We can’t do it now, so we’ll do it tomorrow. And, of course, tomorrow, somehow, never comes…
When the bombs are falling on YOUR children, when soldiers or police are breaking down your doors, when YOU are being set up on terrorist charges, when you are out of work and have lost everything you ever had, when it is your parent or child dying from some preventable illness but you have no healthcare or the hospitals just been bombed, when you are about to be deported — well, something inside of you changes. You just don’t see things that way anymore. You either get angry or you get depressed. Anger, righteous anger, is far better. And you begin to fight for what is right. Once you start fighting, all those “Maňana” people are not your allies — they are the resistance you either have to convert or fight against. Of course, they are mostly ignorant, not evil, because, in reality, they are one step, one unlucky incident away from where you are. And they know that subconsciously, yet their fear keeps them from allying with you before they absolutely need to. They may have read their Niemöller, but it was just a good poem, it never penetrated their heart.
“We don’t have to protest now because Obama will fix things.” And so anti-war groups across the country have actually stopped vigiling. Really, we should be screaming and protesting even more when a new politician takes office. The slimy think tanks did not take time off when Obama was elected; neither did the military/post-industrial/complex; they got right to work behind the scenes and made sure that their choices were installed as “Assistant Under-Secretary for Minitruth,” and every other position that was open. But this is when the “Maňana” people rise up across the country and proclaim with one strong powerful united voice, “Not yet! — we are not ready to stand up against killing, we have to give him a chance to begin killing, to get to like killing, to overcome the moral compunction, and to work himself into an inextricable situation. Then, we can protest.”
Angry Arab is very good at exposing this stuff with Zionist-lite types: You know, the type who “feel” for the Palestinians, but… Or the ones who try to draw some sort of moral equivalence. sabine here makes clear that there is no moral equivalence between killing for a few more months and being the ones who are being killed. John Kerry became famous at the “Winter Soldier” hearings for asking, “Who will be last soldier to die for a useless cause?” Of course, once Americans get over their solipsism the question becomes, “Who will be the last 100,000 Afghanis, Pakistanis, and Iraqis to die for an immoral and illegal war?”
And I know that the people who always find these slippery excuses for Obama are the same ones who would be screaming if McCain had been elected and was bombing Pakistan. But, you see, they can always do this because they know what Obama “wants”: Obama wants good things. And they knew what Bush “wanted”: Bush wanted bad things. It is so simple. Even a little child could grasp this concept….. That is, unless they were busy cowering from bombs and bullets, tanks and bulldozers. The concept is: elect a “good” person and then you can say “Maňana” every night before you go to sleep. And then tomorrow night, you can say “Maňana” too.
Rabbi Hillel was never a member of the “Maňana” cult; he admonished others, “If I am not for myself, who will be? If I am not for others, what am ‘I’? And if not now, when?” Not quite as catchy as “Maňana,” but, it seems to me, a whole lot wiser.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 3:17 utc | 49

I’m not sure where you got your talking points from, anna missed; it doesn’t sound like your voice and some of those points are way off.
Signed a detailed executive order to ban torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners.
hmmm. wsws (Obama executive orders continue “extraordinary renditions,” secret CIA prisons) doesn’t read it that way, and his administration has backtracked even after the order.
Al-Arabiya, a channel described as a “voice of moderation”
Well, I guess if you consider the Saudi royal family to be moderates…
And so forth. I don’t have time to go through each point, but all in all, very suspect.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 3:34 utc | 50

Obviously Oblinders on…

Posted by: David | Feb 8 2009 3:37 utc | 51

I don’t see the comparison with Bismark who reached a social compact with Prussians as a means to enticing ordinary Germans in the myriad of small states and principalities that made up ‘Greater Germany’ and Nixon.
Bismark wasn’t trying to bribe Prussians with freedoms in order to get the Prussians to oppress other people. He was creating a society that not only ordinary Prussians would be proud to ‘spread’ – the ordinary Germans in other states would see it as advantageous to join. This wasn’t seen as an act of oppression of the people’s of the other german states, it was more like an act of liberation. Which is why so much of the unification of Germany was the result of treaties and customs agreements rather than war. People wanted it.
Nixon played to blue collar conservatives prejudice with bullshit nationalism while he conspired against all amerikans with domestic wiretaps, kept his citizens ignorant by pressuring the media with a host of dirty tricks including blackmail and assassination.
Nixon was emasculated for nearly all of his foreshortened second term and it is in the second term when amerikan prez’s have no more elections to worry about that prezes usually choose to stick it up the voters. Who knows what horrors Nixon would have inflicted had he managed to secure his opportunity but his lists of types of amerikan citizens that ‘were due’ for retaliation were considerably long (ie lots of names) as well as wide(ie lots of types of enemies)
Agnew would have played the Cheney/Biden bad cop, something he had been polishing to a fine art with his talk of ‘silent majorities’ and ‘nattering nabobs of negativism’ before he trousered the brown paper lunch bag of other people’s cash in front of the feds.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 8 2009 3:43 utc | 52

Malooga,
Do you know anything other than the following on extraordinary rendition? If you do, can you please link to it?
http://tinyurl.com/boj4ec
http://tinyurl.com/c79uax
http://tinyurl.com/cadkjq

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 8 2009 3:48 utc | 53

WIKI link for my #45, #46 well documented.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 8 2009 3:58 utc | 54

Perhaps I should defer to one of our German mates here. My German histories are all in storage and my memory is suspect. Bismark was first and foremost a pragmatic politician. Wikipedia indicates that the Empire was united by the early 1870’s, and social reforms were instituted over a decade later, largely as a countermeasure to more sweeping reforms favored by the Socialists. So perhaps we are both wrong here.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 4:25 utc | 55

Malooga, when you describe the Manana people the way you did , you’re describing most folks in the West, with the notable exception of Iceland and Greece. It’s easy to argue that the Empire can’t change its spots because of all the comfy and complacent. I don’t know how we here at MoA rate on the scale of personal comforts, but I’ve seen evidence, at least, that we are not among the complacent. I think my friend r’giap knows that I would not hesitate to dump this White House crew in a heartbeat, if they should turn on or harm our comrades in the Bolivarian movements. I have my red lines, though I see you presume not.
I think you have a very unrealistic appraisal of American politics. A president has to build on moral content, form alliances on the domestic scene, twist arms, and use all the cunning at his disposal, even in the interest of good things. You have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at this administration and you don’t believe Obama has much in the way of political skills. I think you are mistaken about his skills.
If McCain had become president we would have other problems of the fascist and police state kind, that none of us would like to think about. You seem to be impatient with any process at all now, and would like to flip a switch and turn off all the horrors in an instant. You and I don’t have that kind of clout, and the president doesn’t either.
The argument you make about the Manana people is a facile argument and is something in the realm of the fantastic.
But I think you know this. Given the presumption (for the sake of argument) that Obama’s intentions are good and he’s thinking several moves ahead, it is not very helpful for you to mock the idea of building public support behind him, to force him to do the right thing. FDR actually asked for that kind of help from activists.
The whole tenor of this government is more receptive than that which came before; and it is possible, despite what you say, to build on its strengths and agitate against and protest its shortcomings.

Posted by: Copeland | Feb 8 2009 4:32 utc | 56

John Pilger: Surplus of bollocks

Posted by: b | Feb 8 2009 4:36 utc | 57

Jim Lobe: Condi Rice Could’ve Written Biden’s Speech

I hate to agree with Bill Kristol, but he’s right about Vice President Joe Biden’s speech at the ongoing Munich security conference when he writes that “the administration chose not to use the occasion to say something interesting. One hopes the Obama administration is actually thinking more seriously than the Biden speech indicates.” I’m sure Kristol and I were looking for different things in the speech, but, at least from my point of view, it was hopelessly uninspired and offered no hints of any creative and new thinking that might actually lead to breakthroughs, particularly in the Middle East. Indeed, it sounded like a speech that Condoleezza Rice might have submitted in draft for White House approval before the vice president’s office and Elliott Abrams got their hands on it. Remember, this was the Obama administration’s first major foreign-policy address and thus a huge opportunity to begin charting its own path.

Posted by: b | Feb 8 2009 4:39 utc | 58

The Greek anarchist riots caused approx 1 billion euros in damage. The National Library in Athens was destroyed. The Aristoteleion University in Thessalonike was trashed–labs, research, the lot. Over seven hundred small businesses in Athens alone, along with people’s livelihoods, were destroyed. Pensioners were wandering the streets for weeks, trying to cash their checks, since all the ATMS in most major cities were destroyed. The only demand of the rioters was that the police disarm. The traditional communist party of Greece, the KKE, condemned the riots from the start, with only the trot fragments expression half assed understanding. Unionized workers, extremely radical, stayed away en masse, with their demos heavily policed so as not to be infiltrated by anarchists.
So…what was accomplished. As we Greeks say, a hole in the water.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 8 2009 4:53 utc | 59

I could write volumes about this bullshit apotheosis of wanton destruction in Greece, but I’m going to refrain because I love r’giap. But it’s a bit galling to hold up what happened in Greece as an example to the world. Fuck it.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 8 2009 4:56 utc | 60

Hmmm… Answers.com has corporate offices in Jerusalem. No wonder they like Al-Arabiya.
I stand by my contention. It is the type of description one would find in Time magazine, only the writing is more juvenile: Full of half-truths and three-quarter falsehoods and messy myths.
Look at this: “Some of his supporters would say this is a great thing because they believe it operates as something from the Dark Ages. Others believe this characterization to not be true…”
Operates as something from the Dark Ages? Camera Obscura, perhaps? I thought the problem was that it was not on American soil and so they did not have to follow US laws, like due process, charging criminals with a crime, Habeus Corpus, etc. — which they weren’t. Additionally, the land they are on was stolen from Cuba. Facts. Not, “operates as something from the Dark Ages,” a childish characterization, which as the description aptly demonstrates then becomes one of those “he says/she says” fake media controversies: “Others believe this characterization to not be true…”
“And now, because we have a free press in America, we will debate this great issue: Does Guantanamo operate like something from the Dark Ages. Our choice of Dark Age “things” are bellows, suit of armor, and rat with bubonic plague. But first, a message from our sponsors…”
Here’s an example from the other side:
Fast-tracked the process to apply new fuel standards to 2011 car models AND initiated steps to allow California to set its own standards for auto emissions that are stricter than that of the Federal government. Again, this is a measure that some of his supporters hail as a grand step forward, while his detractors point out that it could provide an additional severe drag on the economy, especially in car manufacturing areas.
How could increased fuel standards hurt car manufacturing except their bottom line? Ridiculous bloody lobbying crap.
What is more important than this list is always what is left out. What does California’s variance mean for States rights?
What does closing Guantanamo have to do with restoring Habeus Corpus? etc.
In any event, this statement, “ban torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners” is an outright lie.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 4:57 utc | 61

Closing Guantanamo, besides being an obvious act of mercy and a win for justice, is saying that the crew that formerly authorized its outrages were a bunch of medieval apes. This is part of building leadership on moral content. It makes restoring habeas corpus that much more logical.

Posted by: Copeland | Feb 8 2009 5:09 utc | 62

@ Thrasyboulos 53:
It’s hard to remember where I read what, but I certainly read this article (and the previous one linked at bottom) on wsws, which I generally find to be pretty reliable. It cites the LA Times article, which one of your links discredits, based upon the fact that they reputedly confused “rendition” with “extraordinary rendition.” Yet, some of it seems pretty clear and forthright:

The Los Angeles Times cites unnamed US intelligence officials who say, “The rendition program might be poised to play an expanded role going forward because it was the main remaining mechanism—aside from Predator missile strikes—for taking suspected terrorists off the street.”…
Meanwhile, Obama’s order ostensibly shutting down the CIA’s network of secret prisons allows an exception for “facilities used only to hold people in short-term, transitory basis.” What constitutes “short-term” is not defined.
This provision will allow the CIA’s secret prison system to function more or less as it did in the Bush administration. While under the Bush administration prisoners could be held indefinitely in CIA-run black holes, in many cases the CIA prisons—many of which were located in eastern Europe—acted as way stations for prisoners who were to be shipped off to regimes where the abductees were subjected to torture.
Obama has not challenged the Bush administration’s pseudo-legal claim that the president can, without judicial review, claim any individual—US citizen or not—an “enemy combatant,” subject to secret arrest and indefinite detention. Nor has Obama undone the military tribunal system of kangaroo-court justice for those caught up in the US dragnet.
In relationship to the use of torture by the US military and the CIA, Obama left himself ample room for maneuver. While one order claimed to end forms of interrogation not sanctioned by the Army Field Manual, Obama has proposed the creation of a task force that would study ways of changing the Manual to allow for new forms of interrogation.
Even Obama’s celebrated order ending of the prison camp at Guantánamo Bay changes nothing. The current Guatánamo inmates, as well as future “detainees,” may be subject to extraordinary rendition based on executive fiat.
Moreover, Obama has made assurances that his administration will not investigate or prosecute those officials—including former Bush administration officials such as Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Alberto Gonzales—who were responsible for the policies of torture and illegal detention.

And from the previous article in the series:

They do not affect the hundreds of prisoners—600 at the Bagram prison camp in Afghanistan alone—incarcerated beyond the barbed wire of Guantánamo. If and when Guantánamo is closed, the US government will simply ship alleged terrorists caught up its international dragnet to other American-run prison camps.
On the question of so-called “harsh interrogation techniques,” i.e., torture, Obama’s orders leave room for their continuation. White House Counsel Gregory Craig told reporters the administration was prepared to take into account demands from the CIA that such methods be allowed. Obama announced the creation of a task force that will consider new interrogation methods beyond those sanctioned by the Army Field Manual, which now accepts 19 forms of interrogation, as well as the practice of extraordinary rendition.
Retired Admiral Dennis Blair, Obama’s nominee for director of national intelligence, told a Senate confirmation hearing that the Army Field Manual would itself be changed, potentially allowing new forms of harsh interrogation, but that such changes would be kept secret.

As a human being, I believe that MOST, if not all, of the methods sanctioned by the Army Field Manual constitute what I feel to be torture. Waterboarding is just a stylish name for drowning. NPR ran one of its disgusting “normalizing” stories about the technique the other day, claiming that the Army did this to its own members so that they could resist breaking if captured. (“See, it nothing. What was everyone getting so worked up about?”) They neglected to mention that it is far easier to have people you trust to not hurt you do things to you, then if you are a prisoner who could easily be offed and never noticed.
I also believe that US and European soldiers are in Afghanistan illegally and immorally, so getting all worked up about these details is to follow the red herring and miss the heart of the matter. We can argue back and forth what is permissible to do to the Afghanis and Iraqis until they cease to exist, as we did over the Native Americans.
So all I can say is, “We report, you decide.” Soon enough the CIA planewatchers will know whether anything has actually changed. I think that what is likely is that a torture victim will turn into a disappeared victim, since they don’t want any more Maher Arar’s around giving interviews to Amy Goodman. And so there won’t be any, one way or another, as Debbie Harry might say.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 5:47 utc | 63

Thrasyboulos-
Would love to hear more about the goings on in Greece. Do you think Agents Provacateurs were used to incite the damage and discredit the movement?

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 5:49 utc | 64

Copeland:
Let me say that I appreciate having you around here, even if we disagree. I do always feel that you bring something substantial to the table.
Nevertheless:
A president has to build on moral content, form alliances on the domestic scene, twist arms, and use all the cunning at his disposal, even in the interest of good things.
Countries have interests, not moralities, and Presidents represent those interests. It certainly helps to present a moral facade, especially when you are criticizing your rival, as Putin did last week, but both Obama and Putin, despite their requisite sanctimony, are cold-blooded murderers. Yes, the Bush regime was an outlier in manner, attempting to shock-and-awe the world while running the table of Central Asia. The average yearly death toll for Presidents runs between 150-200,000. We’ll see where Obama pegs out in time.
“Good things” to me mean the little people and the planet. Obama hasn’t even mentioned the poor yet, and I see nothing being done to fundamentally alter the course of our ultimate extinction. Sure, one can’t expect that from a President. That’s why I think over-focussing on Obama or Bush is a waste of time. If this were my blog, I would largely change the perspective of my coverage from the leader and the nation to the people and the planet, focusing on movements primarily. But it is not my blog, and I stick around because it is simply the best watering hole around.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 6:06 utc | 65

Malooga,
I don’t want to talk any more about the riots or the anarchists. I shouldn’t have said anything in the first place. Usually, I can bite my tongue till it hurts.
Greece is fucked, big time. Highest unemployment in Europe, second from the bottom in corruption, a bond rating in the crapper, a huge Olympics legacy deficit, a decrepit education system, the two main sources of income, tourism and shipping…kaput for as far as the eye can see.
Here’s a pro anarchist site, in English. Fevered victim pimping and fairly distant from reality, but you’ll get the drift.
http://tinyurl.com/9cdlfa
Here’s a set of photos from those days. Note the division between the “anarchists” and the student demos. Pics 16, 28, 34, will emphasize the distinction.
http://tinyurl.com/6hlbx8
Here’s the lad’s preparing for battle.
http://tinyurl.com/6383l6
I’ve written quite a bit for myself, but it’s not appropriate for here or now. Maybe some other time.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 8 2009 7:51 utc | 66

Let me say that I appreciate having you around here, even if we disagree. I do always feel that you bring something substantial to the table.
[… here the owner, the Host, reassures his guest that it’s okay to stick around…]

Posted by: alabama | Feb 8 2009 8:57 utc | 67

So, after all this rubbishing of Obama, do we believe this?
Obama puts brake on Afghan surge

Posted by: Alex | Feb 8 2009 11:01 utc | 68

Juan Cole elaborates the idea:
Obama May Postpone Afghan Surge; Severe Problems in Supply Routes Afflict Aghanistan War Effort

Posted by: Alex | Feb 8 2009 11:28 utc | 69

Sure, not because he is noble, but because the military told him they couldn’t feed the troops.
As we have detailed earlier, this past week was a disaster for US Grand Imperial Policy. You don’t rush Henry Kissinger off to Moscow because you’ve planned and executed well. America does not suddenly call for regional conferences because they are good, but because they are unexpectedy weak. Next, they’ll have to exhume James Baker too. Get the adults in to try and salvage things.
Obama — the masterful politician lamely telegraphed his moves and the rest of the world had time to plan and respond. Putin never telegraphs his moves, but then he clearly isn’t the caliber of politician that Obama is.
Obama is making mistake after mistake in my book. The right will be breathing down his neck within a year, and the left will hate him. The rest of the world will benefit — which is fine by me — but Grand Imperial Policy, which he is put in place to manage, will suffer.
And he ain’t gonna help the middle and lower classes until they wipe the stars from their eyes and revolt.
After Bush, they should have been more suspect about the Boy-King strategy.
In any event, Obama was installed to upgrade the brand and manage domestic discontent while they cut social benefits, which he is ensuring they will have to do by shoveling even more money to the banksters. He seems well suited to the role.
If I can’t convince anyone that there are Grand strategies — that benefits have been systematically cut since 1972 worldwide by almost all politicians; that the wealthy have waged organized war against the poor since then, that Europe’s alliance with the US has not served its people but its elite, etc. — well, that’s my problem because I am not a good enough writer and persuasive enough arguer, and because people don’t really want to hear the message.
By the way, when I asked what the US and Europe’s legitimate mission in Afghanistan is, no one responded.
In any event, here is the latest from M K Bhadrakumar: Biden may hold unclenched Iranian hand
Read it all; these are brief excerpts:

Tehran knows a main reason is that it has a crucial role to play in salvaging the crisis in Afghanistan. On Wednesday, the European Union’s External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner flagged the importance of inviting Iran to the EU’s forthcoming “regional conference” on Afghanistan. The ruling Christian Democratic Union of Germany has proposed in the Bundestag the setting up of a “Contact Group” on Afghanistan that would comprise the UN Security Council’s permanent members, as well as the EU, Pakistan and Iran.
On Wednesday, in her first press conference as Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton announced that the US will attend the next round of multilateral talks with Iran on the nuclear issue next week in Germany. ..
On Tuesday, the chief of Iran’s armed forces General Hassan Firouz Abadi, who comes directly under the Supreme Leader, implied that “conspiracies” against the incumbent in the Byzantine corridors of Iranian domestic politics have withered away and that Iran needed someone of Ahmadinejad’s “capability and dynamism”. Former president Mohammad Khatami, who was tipped to be a candidate of the reformist camp, has since excused himself from the race.
Arguably, the Iranian regime has also cleared the way for a swift engagement with the Obama era. At a minimum, it seems Iran anticipated that an opportune moment to engage might unceremoniously arise….
To be sure, the US is in acute need of Iran’s cooperation for the success of its new Afghan strategy. The US’s “surge” strategy is coming under a cloud already. Critics are piling up questions marks and voicing skepticism about its need and efficacy. In his Congressional testimony in Washington on Tuesday, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates admitted that while the US military expects to be able to send three additional combat brigades totaling up to 12,000 troops to Afghanistan between late spring and mid-summer, he remained “deeply skeptical” of any further troop increases. The US commanders in Afghanistan asked for as many as 30,000 more combat and support troops.
Gates suggested the US goals in Afghanistan must be “modest” and “realistic”. He said, “This is going to be a long slog, and frankly, my view is that we need to be very careful about the nature of goals we set for ourselves in Afghanistan.” Critics point out that even a doubling of the current US troop strength of 30,000 will not mean much. Military experts estimate the Afghan insurgency can be successfully overcome only with a force level of half a million troops.
Besides, other major hitches remain.
First, European countries remain averse to making troop contributions. According to Robert Hunter, former US ambassador to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) during the Bill Clinton administration, there could at best be only some “token response” if Washington made a new appeal, despite the “extraordinary goodwill” for Obama among Europeans. “I rather suspect if the United States pushes too hard on asking for new forces, it will lead to a rebuff,” Hunter said.
The US will be compelled to hasten the search for a political solution even as robust attempts to regain the military momentum from Taliban continue. This is where Iran’s cooperation is critically needed. It is never easy to finesse a contradictory strategy of “Talk, talk; fight, fight”….
Tehran must seriously ponder if its interests are served by Karzai’s exit at this juncture or not. Tehran stands to gain out of a genuinely independent Karzai who asserts Afghanistan’s sovereignty and resists the US diktat. Karzai is becoming assertive and is even demanding a SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) with the US on the Iraqi model, which would give Kabul decisive say in critical matters such as where the US troops should be based and how they operate.
Karzai is openly seeking Russian military aid. As Foreign Minister Rangin Dadfar Spanta put it, “our [Afghan] military personnel, pilots in particular, are familiar with [and have been trained in] Russian techniques. And some of the Russian helicopters work well in our mountainous areas. So if the Russians help us in these areas, we … are not opposed to it”….
Nothing could alter the Afghan calculus more than if a Tehran-Islamabad axis emerges, unlikely as the prospect may seem at this point. But then, in the quicksands of Afghan politics, anything can change overnight. Therefore, if Biden, the grey cardinal of the US foreign policy establishment, extends his hand to a distinguished Iranian personality with unclenched fist at Munich next weekend, he will be doing so not a day too soon.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 12:09 utc | 70

@67:
I ain’t the owner, and what I said is genuine, so cut the snark.
Copeland argues his case, which I respect.
It is bald assertions, as some others have done, that I have little patience with. Without a “why” there is no point or way of engaging.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 12:15 utc | 71

Sure, not because he is noble, but because the military told him they couldn’t feed the troops.
I have to say I find this remark bizarre. I am no defender of Obama, but at least it looks like he may be wisely adapting his policy to reality, which his predecessor never did. After all, the Bush cabal “created their own reality”, didn’t they, and hang the consequences.
And we’ve already had an action vs words exchange higher up on this thread. The doing is looking better than the words at the moment.

Posted by: Alex | Feb 8 2009 12:31 utc | 72

M of A – U.S. Foreign Policy – “Here we go again.”

And for all of our European friends, what are Europe’s aims in Afghanistan? Could anyone explain that to me?

Since Europe is now larger, wealthier, and more economically and ecologically sustainable than the US, what kind of pressure, as b alluded to on a previous thread, could be brought to bear on European leaders to betray their publics?

Good question. Are our european elites so inept that they can not see the writing on the wall? Does hobnobbing with the US elite trumph anything else? Or does the CIA keep enough dirt and lone gunmen on stock to make sure they tow the line? Mix perhaps?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 8 2009 12:45 utc | 73

Clearly, I do not understand how Iraq could have been botched worse. So in that sense I agree with you.
The world is run by scheming gangsters plotting and counter-plotting. In a sense, it hardly matters who is up and who is down. Environmental issues are not adequately addressed. What matters is the suffering of the ordinary people, innocently caught up in the intrigue, as Thrasyboulos details above.
Is a just world possible?

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2009 12:52 utc | 74

@73 Does hobnobbing with the US elite trumph anything else? Or does the CIA keep enough dirt and lone gunmen on stock to make sure they tow the line? Mix perhaps?
Both for certain. On the second one look up on the Rosenholz files

Posted by: b | Feb 8 2009 14:17 utc | 75

its ironical that its the same people who argue so deeply about how the system is so inherently flawed & irredeemable (and has been so for hundreds of years) are also the same who make the “all-or-nothing” demands that Obama must fix everything NOW.
they do’nt really expect him to do what they want. They know he’s not going to be able to fix things at the speed they demand, and certain things — maybe not at all.
the real goal is to tarnish him as agent of the system without being too direct about it. After-all, it would be kinda ridiculous of them to take the approach that you can fight the system by tarnishing one guy as its agent especially when theres no proof he’s anymore of an agent than the next guy.
I imagine the objective is as a first step to get people to “wake up” & renounce all hopes they project on Obama or any other symbol of hope that emerges from the system. I’m not sure what the next step is though.
But if we really want to fight the system, is this the best we can do ?

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Feb 8 2009 15:00 utc | 76

I ain’t the owner, and what I said is genuine, so cut the snark.
[Hmm… he ain’t the owner, and he gives out the orders…. the maître d’, perhaps?]

Posted by: alabama | Feb 8 2009 16:10 utc | 77

But if we really want to fight the system, is this the best we can do ?
first, be realistic about the capabilities of this nation’s new CEO. second, realize that even though they say they want change, a majority of people in this country simply don’t.
the topic of this thread is foreign policy, and here the continuity between administrations is stark, and because this country’s manufacturing capacity has been hallowed out, we will keep up the insanity abroad because military spending is a lynch pin Obama, for his own personal safety, can’t touch.
domestically people outside the states only care because our sick, viral fiscal behavior has imperiled the entire global system; that behavior includes an adolescent, reckless use of credit, and screw the consequences.
greed is system wide, and we all own a part of it. people here in the US just want the figurehead of the system to alleviate them of their own complicity.
I imagine the objective is as a first step to get people to “wake up” & renounce all hopes they project on Obama or any other symbol of hope that emerges from the system.
even though you state this in jest, i think it’s a good place to start.

Posted by: Lizard | Feb 8 2009 16:27 utc | 78

another answer: if you reduce your dependence on the system, you won’t be as affected by its inevitable breakdown. the western mountain state where i live was primarily food independent 70-80 years ago. now, there are some positive steps to rebuild local food production infrastructure, because that’s the kind of stuff that needs to happen.

Posted by: Lizard | Feb 8 2009 16:40 utc | 79

For the US, war – either as against supposed dastardly enemies or as a mish mash of humanitarian guff – has become an institutionalized activity.
It can’t be given up or significantly downscaled because:
1) it is essential to maintain the position and threat of being the first military power in the world
2) it feeds the military-industrial complex who have clout and demands, at the same time provides for expenditure, waste, and ‘jobs’ (homeland security, army, see unemployment, etc.)
3) it keeps Americans in an us against them mentality,necessary for 1) and essential to the PTB who need a backdrop of guarantees as to the manipulation of the US public
4) domination defends the dollar, the finance of energy, and the import of flat screens and Barbies
So any target will do, the poorer and more powerless the better.
Obama is just the new sexy CEO, public figure on the blue screen. He has to talk the talk with a forked tongue as that is what his ‘progressive’ supporters desire and expect; as do the financiers (Wall Street), as these are always parasites on the status quo. BOA at all costs, no change…

Posted by: Tangerine | Feb 8 2009 16:40 utc | 80

thrasyboulos
i value your post here, highly & i hope you understand that
i had thought from the infromation avaialable to me that both the workers movements & student movements had become wider with the involvement of the farmers but alos the engagement of the cleaner’s union whose general secretary had been attacked by acid
the sources i am following mostly are ; open anthropology, social war in greece & some others – but they are imperfect
in the french press there is nothing. & there also appears to be a blackout in the italian & anglo saxon press
the details you reveal are troubling, but so too is tthe state creation of some ‘terrorist’ group who is said to have taken a military action against the police & there are a number of other actions that seem to be those of agent provocateurs
the kke has not covered itself in glory like many european communist parties – who seem to love their seats in parliament too much
but i would be happy for any detail, really
i think the events of greece & icelnd are epochal & what is happening in italy & frence need to be observed closely

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 8 2009 16:44 utc | 81

from the kke in greece

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 8 2009 17:09 utc | 82

As to why the Obama-ites are such a hawkish species of birds, all I can figure is that Obama’s bloody warmongers in his war cabinet are in cahoots with his precious gems in his treasury chest to get our economy back on its feet by turning our war machine into a huge jobs factory for our unemployed. If this is so, then I can only conclude that the Obama-ites are thoroughly clueless to the fact that there’s nothing healthy about an economy which cultivates death and destruction.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 8 2009 17:29 utc | 83

Tangerine (@80),
I submit that
5) we’ve never conceived of a government as being other than an instrument of war–the word “never” meaning, in this sentence, “not since Hernando de Soto”, or “not since the landings of the Dutch and the British in New York, New England and Virginia in the 1620’s”. “We”–meaning settlers from Europe–never conceived of a government that didn’t prepare for war, fight a war, or recover from a war.
Four centuries of unremitting warfare on this continent alone! Go back to the lands that sent us here, and we can trace an infinite regress to Alexander the Great, whose adventures in Afghanistan are discussed among the Pathans as having happened only two or three decades ago (and I think their point may be well taken…).

Posted by: alabama | Feb 8 2009 17:30 utc | 84

& i understand well, copeland – exactly your position if a hair is touched on the bolivarian revolutions head – that has been clear from the beginning in your argumenatation

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 8 2009 17:47 utc | 86

malooga harper’s is another taking the latimes to task over its hitjob.

The Los Angeles Times just got punked. Its description of the European Parliament’s report is not accurate. (Point of disclosure: I served as an expert witness in hearings leading to the report.) But that’s the least of its problems. It misses the difference between the renditions program, which has been around since the Bush 41 Administration at least (and arguably in some form even in the Reagan Administration) and the extraordinary renditions program which was introduced by Bush 43 and clearly shut down under an executive order issued by President Obama in his first week.
There are two fundamental distinctions between the programs. The extraordinary renditions program involved the operation of long-term detention facilities either by the CIA or by a cooperating host government together with the CIA, in which prisoners were held outside of the criminal justice system and otherwise unaccountable under law for extended periods of time. A central feature of this program was rendition to torture, namely that the prisoner was turned over to cooperating foreign governments with the full understanding that those governments would apply techniques that even the Bush Administration considers to be torture. This practice is a felony under current U.S. law, but was made a centerpiece of Bush counterterrorism policy.
The earlier renditions program regularly involved snatching and removing targets for purposes of bringing them to justice by delivering them to a criminal justice system. It did not involve the operation of long-term detention facilities and it did not involve torture. There are legal and policy issues with the renditions program, but they are not in the same league as those surrounding extraordinary rendition. Moreover, Obama committed to shut down the extraordinary renditions program, and continuously made clear that this did not apply to the renditions program.
In the course of the last week we’ve seen a steady stream of efforts designed to show that Obama is continuing the counterterrorism programs that he previously labeled as abusive and promised to shut down. These stories are regularly sourced to unnamed current or former CIA officials and have largely run in right-wing media outlets. However, now we see that even the Los Angeles Times can be taken for a ride.

alex The doing is looking better than the words at the moment.
yep, watch what they do, not what they say. i ask upthread ‘what is cost effective’? to repeat @70
Nothing could alter the Afghan calculus more than if a Tehran-Islamabad axis emerges, unlikely as the prospect may seem at this point. But then, in the quicksands of Afghan politics, anything can change overnight. Therefore, if Biden, the grey cardinal of the US foreign policy establishment, extends his hand to a distinguished Iranian personality with unclenched fist at Munich next weekend, he will be doing so not a day too soon.
i’d say building diplomatic bridges w/iran, encouraging a karzi russian alliance.. that sounds very cost effective to me. meanwhile, how is investing in a missile defense system that would jump start a cold war cost effective? a joint us/russia co ordination is cost effective.
hi jony, long time no see.

Posted by: annie | Feb 8 2009 18:44 utc | 87

r’giap,
there’s no problem between us.
we’ll talk about this, but not today. As for the recent gun/grenade attacks on the cops, three so far, one with a severe injury, look my friend, I don’t know anything about a government created terrorist group, but it’s a fact that some anarchist groups have been quoted that they’ll take a life for a life. Violent non governmental groups are not unknown in Greece, for example, November 17.
Finally, you are right, there are numerous protest groups with varying grievances in Greece now, more so than normal, more so because of the neoliberals in power, more so because of the economic collapse, more so because people have had it up to here with corruption and nepotism. I think, though, that to identify them with what happened in December is an oversimplification.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 8 2009 20:12 utc | 88

Here’s a greek newspaper in English, r’giap. By Greek standards, it’s conservative, ie a bit too sober 🙂
http://www.ekathimerini.com/

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 8 2009 20:24 utc | 89

am crocker is leaving his post. that’s change i can believe in.

Posted by: annie | Feb 8 2009 21:11 utc | 90

Well things got thrashed out while I worked in RL.
As I understand it Obama hasn’t completely closed down the extra-ordinary renditions program, Guantanamo Bay is the only ‘off the books prison’ he has insisted be closed. Bagram is undergoing a huge expansion program as is the super secret absolutely denied facility at Diego Garcia.
Even if he had stopped all the extraordinary renditions, which I don’t believe he has, the ‘bog standard’ (as the english would say) renditions are just as evil and wrong, so that any prez committed to resurrecting amerika’s reputation would close them down as well.
We can sit here and tick off the list of war crimes and criminals cowering behind the borders of amerika right now, if other nations also had a renditions program like amerika’s, it would mean that those countries could secretly send agents into amerika to pick up those criminals many of whom were respected (by mainstream amerikan socity) and abduct them to face trial completely bypassing extradition protocols etc.
Arguing that amerika can do this to others but no one else can do it to amerika is just more exceptionalism of the type Obama intimated he was going to wipe out with his statements about amerika returning to the society of nations, using multi-lateral mechanisms etc.
I never cease to be amazed at humans capacity for self-delusion. The debate about whether Obama’s domestic policy was OK despite his abysmal record so far on foreign policy is a classic piece of self delusion. The separation between domestic and foreign policy is false, the two are inseparable and any oppression of Afghanis or Pashtuns, Iraqis, Persians, Palestinians etc can only be sustained by a concomitant oppression of amerikans, otherwise the truth of the empire’s murders becomes too well known, locals protest and get oppressed even more than they would have when domestic control had been sustained at a lever sufficient to ensure the amerikan public remained ignorant.
Even worse the oppressors who move between the oppression of foreigners and oppression of amerikans, don’t change attitudes at the border, turning from sadists to caring public servants at the baggage carousel.
Just as the torturers of Abu Graihb were alumni of amerika’s domestic prison system, the new amerikan domestic police recruits are graduates of the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and shootings, beatings, torture during interrogations is on the increase.
the amerikan culture reflects this in the most egregious ways. Movies and TV a decade ago had the classic story arc of a good cop gone bad which would feature a cop under stress from all the miscreants sociopathy, finally physically abusing his prisoners. The cop would be remonstrated with and usually dismissed, occasionally if the miscreant was really bad (and unwhite) the cop would be given another chance. Not so any more the cop ‘heroes’ of the Bruckheimer and Wolf TV shows routinely stomp on citizens rights especially searches and ‘confessions’ while they bash the suspects with gusto. It began with civilian domestic cop variations on the ticking bomb theme – some particularly photogenic child would be in great danger – so the shows chief protagonist would be shown ‘rolling up his sleeves’ as one scene closed. next scene he is rolling em back down again and telling his partner’ where the accomplice said the kid was.
Not so any more – the cop violence is on screen now. If TV is showing that level of abuse it is safe to assume the reality will be worse because police have always operated beyond the accepted social mores of the times they work in.
amerikan commonly held beliefs have come to accentuate property ahead of people more and more, along with an individual’s powerlessness. All in order to sell their empire to potential soldiers of empire, that transference of oppression from foreign to domestic times and places will continue.
The transference of attitudes and behaviours from empire to home and back again is bad enough just at the ‘coalface’ level but the effect on policy makers and administrators is less obvious though far more damaging to many more people than rogue law enforcement could ever effect.
The sons and daughters of the elite may avoid enlistment in the imperial army, but they do sign up for administration gigs. Who can forget alla the young rethugs Paul Bremer enlisted to his Coalition Provisional Authority? They and the quiet amerikans who followed into newer civil administration iterations within the “Green Zone”, will be back in amerika now, back and working for politicians, or heading upwards on career paths in state and federal administrations.
Along with them comes the corruption and disdain for humanity they learned ‘out there’ building the empire.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 8 2009 21:18 utc | 91

thanks thrasyboulos
the point i was making is that in this crisis people, the people are responding to the deepening by an instinctive response to injustice. this in part account for the tidal wave of anti israel actions by people who are not notoriouslly sympathetic to the palestinians
insurrections have often started from less. it is clear in these last few months & it is particularly noticeable in france – the repressive state apparatus – increased presence & mobilty of the crs & gendarmerie within cities & at manifestations
the new group in greece the co called ‘revolutionary entity’ is the creation of secret policemen – it seems to me is completely a state concoction as is the recent announcement here in france of an ulta left sect blamed for sabotage on the railways
there is a long history of such concotions especially at the moments when the people have had enough n& if anything is really clear at this moment, the people have had quite enough

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 8 2009 22:00 utc | 92

Well, r’giap, we’ll probably revisit this government concocted terrorist group, probably in the not too distant future. Until then…we’ll keep our eyes open.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 8 2009 22:22 utc | 93

thrasyboulos
what is its name – i’ve come across it once & it seems straight from fiction – ‘sect of revolutionaries’ – really it does sound like something from anthony burgess
like you tho i am more interested to see how the workers & farmers organise

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 8 2009 22:48 utc | 94

annie Hi
I’m glad to be back

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Feb 8 2009 23:11 utc | 95

Great read, yet again, muchas gracias compañeros.
Obama’s choice of VP, cabinet and advisors did not come as a huge surprise to anyone whose been reading between the lines of his eloquent speeches. Sometimes I get the impression that when ever he spoke of change, he envisioned largely a change of faces, far less the policies.
To make my point, instead of me dragging out his infamously one-sided address to the American Israel Public Affairs Council, I am having a closer look at his remarks to the Chicago Council on Global Affairs in April 2007. Although you might say I am picking the raisins from the cake, the length of the speech requires me to be selective:

Good morning. We all know that these are not the best of times for America’s reputation in the world. We know what the war in Iraq has cost us in lives and treasure, in influence and respect. We have seen the consequences of a foreign policy based on a flawed ideology, and a belief that tough talk can replace real strength and vision.

Not once as yet have I heard him say sorry, either on his own account or that of the US as a whole, for the many hundreds of thousands people killed by the US military since he entered federal politics. He apologizes for calling staffers and reporters “sweetie”, for appointing Tom Daschle, for mentioning Nancy’s séances, for having referred to US casualties in Iraq as “wasted”, but a heartfelt expression of him feeling sadness and grief for the countless people killed by US troops I have yet to hear. Not that I am expecting it any time soon, his silence on the recent mass killings of civilians in Gaza perpetrated with US military equip and consent convey the picture.

But while we know what we have lost as a consequence of this tragic war, I also know what I have found in my travels over the past two years.
In an old building in Ukraine, I saw test tubes filled with anthrax and the plague lying virtually unlocked and unguarded – dangers we were told could only be secured with America’s help.

As B said, “here we go again”.

So I reject the notion that the American moment has passed. I dismiss the cynics who say that this new century cannot be another when, in the words of President Franklin Roosevelt, we lead the world in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good.

Can anyone else see the phrase ‘project for a new American century’ in those two sentences?

I still believe that America is the last, best hope of Earth. We just have to show the world why this is so. This President may occupy the White House, but for the last six years the position of leader of the free world has remained open. And it’s time to fill that role once more.

Leader of the free world hey? Freedom of what? Being spied on by your own government, and O has no problem with that as his support for FISA clearly underlined. Free to have the budget of your already struggling social security services cut in order to finance the bail out of already bloated Wall Street? The US has per capita the highest imprison rate, right up there with such shiny beacons as North Korea. There are numerous countries where citizens enjoy plenty more liberties than in the US, which in my eyes makes his insistence that the US is the world leader when it comes to Freedom sound farcical.

This election offers us the chance to turn the page and open a new chapter in American leadership. The disappointment that so many around the world feel toward America right now is only a testament to the high expectations they hold for us.

Mr. President, what the world expects is for you to make sure US troops get the hell out of any country your military illegally invaded. What is expected is that you give the order for the killing of foreign citizens by US troops to stop immediately.

I acknowledged at the time that there are risks involved in such an approach. That is why my plan provides for an over-the-horizon force that could prevent chaos in the wider region, and allows for a limited number of troops to remain in Iraq to fight al Qaeda and other terrorists.

Over the horizon force! You gotta hand it to him, he does have a knack for putting it bluntly. It seems to have escaped him that it is US troops which cause the wider chaos in the region.

Moreover, until we change our approach in Iraq, it will be increasingly difficult to refocus our efforts on the challenges in the wider region – on the conflict in the Middle East, where Hamas and Hezbollah feel emboldened and Israel’s prospects for a secure peace seem uncertain; on Iran, which has been strengthened by the war in Iraq; and on Afghanistan, where more American forces are needed to battle al Qaeda, track down Osama bin Laden, and stop that country from backsliding toward instability.

I appreciate the fact that Obama did not join the pro-Iraq war lobbyists in the lead up to the invasion, but he has always been a staunch supporter of the terrible war in Afghanistan and a loyal devotee to the Zionist cause, and a goose when it comes to understanding terrorism. If he to this day believes that US troops in Afghanistan fight AQ, then his comprehension of world affairs is close to be on par with Bush’s.

The second way America will lead again is by building the first truly 21st century military and showing wisdom in how we deploy it.
We must maintain the strongest, best-equipped military in the world in order to defeat and deter conventional threats. But while sustaining our technological edge will always be central to our national security, the ability to put boots on the ground will be critical in eliminating the shadowy terrorist networks we now face. This is why our country’s greatest military asset is the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States.

Fu.k off Obama. Building a 21 century military, where is there change from the previous administration? Just like under Bush, gazillions will be heaped upon the MIC, while bridges crumble and the number of homeless rises.

Our men and women in uniform are performing heroically around the world in some of the most difficult conditions imaginable. But the war in Afghanistan and the ill-advised invasion of Iraq have clearly demonstrated the consequences of underestimating the number of troops required to fight two wars and defend our homeland. That’s why I strongly support the expansion of our ground forces by adding 65,000 soldiers to the Army and 27,000 Marines.

That is close to 100’000 extra soldiers times $100’000 per year each to employ them, equalling an extra 10 billion dollars every year being thrown away on running a killing machine, at a time when there are is a seemingly endless list of more important needs for the cash to be spend on.

Of course, how we use our armed forces matters just as much as how they are prepared.
No President should ever hesitate to use force – unilaterally if necessary – to protect ourselves and our vital interests when we are attacked or imminently threatened.

The caveats he weaves into his speeches are incredible. In other words, he, just like his soulless predecessor, has no qualms to defy world opinion and militarily enforce US interests, whatever he deems vital.

The third way America must lead again is by marshalling a global effort to meet a threat that rises above all others in urgency – securing, destroying, and stopping the spread of weapons of mass destruction.

How about him speaking for a change about the miserable fact that there is no greater producer of WMD than the USA and that itself must and therefore will stop using weapons of mass destruction, or go that extra step and announce his plan on initiating a total nuclear disarmament world wide?

As starting points, the world must prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons and work to eliminate North Korea’s nuclear weapons program. If America does not lead, these two nations could trigger regional arms races that could accelerate nuclear proliferation on a global scale and create dangerous nuclear flashpoints. In pursuit of this goal, we must never take the military option off the table. But our first line of offense here must be sustained, direct and aggressive diplomacy.

Translates to possibly harsh sanctions and a continued threat to carry out a war crime if Iran doesn’t give up on it’s right to pursue nuclear technology.

We must do so not in the spirit of a patron, but the spirit of a partner – a partner that is mindful of its own imperfections. Extending an outstretched hand to these states must ultimately be more than just a matter of expedience or even charity. It must be about recognizing the inherent equality and worth of all people.

Great statement. Gives hope.
To sum this up, let me quote from Hoss’s comment, which sentiment I pretty much share.

Protest the policy, write against it, send emails, write letters, and make phone calls. That is how the policies are going to be changed not by hoping that Obama and his people will do it on their own.

Obama is no doubt a man with a positive dream, but so was George Bush, depends on who you ask. So maybe its best to ask yourself, and when I do so I come up with questions like, if you apparently stand for less war, why increase your troop numbers? When reading of his plans for increased military numbers and the military’s continued dominant role in his vision for maintaining or recapturing US world hegemony I have to wonder what is going on in this guy’s mind when he is talking about “reaching out to the forgotten corners of this world.”
The point has been made up-thread that focusing on the process rather than the result is defeating ourselves, and I’d have to agree. Who cares how nicely worded the excuses are, for the relatives of the many dead and many more crippled people the US foreign policy steam roller leaves behind it comes as no consolation that the bombs were well meant. To ensure he stops this madness Obama’s feet need to be held to the fire even more so than Bush’s, as unlike Shrub, Obama actually promised change.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 8 2009 23:37 utc | 96

Also, a cheers to Outsider for the link to the alarming story on Phil Rizk. I had no idea that this is his name but I’ve been following his blog Tabula Gaza since USrael’s previous murder spree in Gaza. Kudos to a young man trying to make a difference. I most certainly will be writing a letter to the Egyptian embassy here in Australia, and for any fellow Aussies who frequent the Moon, here the address in case you’d like to join that action.
Consulate General of the Arab Republic of Egypt Sydney
Level 3, 241 Commonwealth Street,
Surry Hills, NSW 2010
Tel.: (61 2) 9281-4844
Fax: (61 2) 9281-4344
Consular inquiries: consular@egypt.org.au
For Egyptian embassy contacts in Washington, click here.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 8 2009 23:42 utc | 97

As I understand it Obama hasn’t completely closed down the extra-ordinary renditions program, Guantanamo Bay is the only ‘off the books prison’ he has insisted be closed.
1/22 nyt Obama Orders Secret Prisons and Detention Camps Closed

President Obama signed executive orders Thursday directing the Central Intelligence Agency to shut what remains of its network of secret prisons and ordering the closing of the Guantánamo detention camp within a year.
.. President Obama signed executive orders Thursday ending the Central Intelligence Agency’s secret overseas prisons, banning coercive interrogation methods and closing the Guantánamo Bay detention camp within a year.
….
The intelligence agency built a network of secret prisons in 2002 to house and interrogate senior Qaeda figures captured overseas.
….
A government official said Mr. Obama’s order on the C.I.A. would still allow its officers abroad to temporarily detain terrorism suspects and transfer them to other agencies, but would no longer allow the agency to carry out long-term detentions.

guardian

When Barack Obama ordered the closure of Guantánamo Bay, human rights activists said it was just the tip of the iceberg. This time he’s gone after the iceberg.
The US president’s order to close the network of secret prisons around the world – known as CIA “black sites” – which contain an untold number of “ghost detainees” whose existence has never properly been confirmed will be just as satisfying for campaigners.

npr Obama To Close CIA Prisons Immediately
you could be right debs, but it seems like an elaborate show if that network of secret prisons is still up and running.

Posted by: annie | Feb 8 2009 23:57 utc | 98

r’giap,
The name you’re looking for is Sechta Epanastaton, Revolutionary Sect, which assumed responsibility for the attack on a police station, 27/01/09. I believe it’s a new group, at least in name. If you heard of it before this date, please let me know.
Another, or the same, or similar, group calling itself Emanastatikos Agonas, Revolutionary Struggle, assumed responsibility for the gunfire against a police bus, and the serious wounding of a policeman.
EA has a history from at least 2003, but other names have emerged for various bombings, rpg attacks, etc. in the wake of the capture and jailing of November 17.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 9 2009 1:04 utc | 99

Re the LA Times being played, etc.
One aspect of Republican/neocon foreign policy strategy the last eight years has been the manufacture of enemies, to adapt a Chomskyan term. Hence the ostentatious display of torture victims, Guantanamo, orange jumpsuits, extraordinary rendition…and the rest of it. I believe this is one aspect that has been missed by the recent, earnest, and grotesque discussion about the efficacy of torture. Dershowitz knows what he’s doing, in other words.
Osama bin Laden is waaaaay more useful alive than dead, or if dead, kept alive by various electronic methods. 🙂

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Feb 9 2009 1:10 utc | 100