Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 17, 2009
How A Big State Can Be Trusted

Via Stephen Walt an interesting theory on big state/small state negotiations:

A […] highlight was Todd Sechsers’s paper “Goliath’s Curse: Asymmetric Power and Effectiveness of Coercive Threats.” Using a simple bargaining model, Sechser (from the University of Virginia) argues that great powers often fail to get their way when they issue coercive threats (which is surprising at first glance), and that this problem may in fact get worse the more powerful they are. The basic logic here concerns reputation: weak states will worry about giving in to a great power’s demands (even when the demands are fairly minor), because they will fear that the great power will just demand more later. So they resist now, to enhance their reputation for being stubborn and to convince the great power to leave them alone in the future. The core of the problem is that a very powerful state can’t make a credible commitment of restraint; it can’t reassure the weak state that it really, truly, wants just a modest concession, one that the weak state might be willing to grant if it were confident that this would be the only demand. And the bigger and stronger the coercing state is, the harder it is for that state to reassure the weak power that its aims are actually limited.

I do not agree with the proposed automatism: big states vs. small, thereby "stubbornness" from the small one. There is of course a way to "reassure the weak power that its aims are actually limited" and that it can be trusted. That would be a consistent adherence to international law and agreements by the big state.

But the U.S. has the bad habit of constantly trying to slip out of these. Bush I promised Russia not to expand NATO. Then the U.S. pressed to expand NATO into east Europe. The U.S. signed the UN Convention Against Torture. Then it tortured. The SOFA agreement with Iraq clearly demands the U.S. forces to leave Iraq by the end of 2011. Next a public campaign is started to stay longer.

So this is not just a theoretical construct and it is not at all inevitable that small states have huge mistrust against any big state demand. They do have such mistrust because the U.S. – at least after the fall of the Soviet Union – made it a habit to break agreements and to demand more and more and more with disregard to law and its own word.

It is not alone in doing such.

We can currently see something similar in Israel's changing position on a truce in Gaza as mediated by Egypt. Israel started out by demanding a 18 month truce when Hamas offered 12 month. When Hamas accepted, the Israeli demand changed. Suddenly the exchange of prisoners, the Israeli soldier Shalit against some Palestinian prisoners held by Israel was put down as a condition for a truce. Then the Israelis again changed their position and now the prisoner exchange seems to be the only issue it wants to negotiate about at all.

To get there it keeps up the blockade of food and other necessary means for 1.5 million people in Gaza: collective punishment in disregard of international law and its own former promises.

In the Algier accords the U.S. agreed not to intervene politically or militarily in Iranian internal affairs. But it kept up and still has a huge secret program to do just that. No wonder then that Iran does not trust any U.S. offer.

But it is not simply the size of the negotiation partners that creates mistrust and lets smaller states resist against demands from bigger ones like the U.S. It is the very real experience of distrustful behavior by the U.S. that creates such resistance in the first place. If there would be experience that the U.S. can be trusted, the situation would likely be much different. 

For a big country that seems to still have the trust of smaller states, and thereby is able to get concessions from these, look at China. It is very concerened to stick to the letter of international law and to keep a non-interventionist stand. That gives it a creadibility the U.S. has lost.

Comments

the U.S. – at least after the fall of the Soviet Union – made it a habit to break agreements and to demand more and more and more with disregard to law and its own word.
Any native American could tell you this is a little bit older than “post-fall of USSR”.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Feb 17 2009 10:12 utc | 1

Great thread, b, which actually ties very well into the debate on the U.S. vs. Iran, especially the highlighted sentence “the bigger and stronger the coercing state is, the harder it is for that state to reassure the weak power that its aims are actually limited.”.
Why? Because I don’t see the U.S. as impossibly strong or Iran as impossibly weak. In fact I see Iran’s strength growing daily while America’s dissipates both nominally and relatively to the rest of the world. (This is a fact and not an opinion).
Your example of China is very appropriate. Do you believe Iran would have purchased $ 20 billion of goods from China last year (up from $ 100 million in 1998) if it had mistrusted the dragon?
Unfortunately for the U.S., or ‘fortunately’ for Barflies who despise the U.S., America has pursued a hegemonistic policy that was ultimately self-defeating, investing in other nations, boosting the economies of other nations and eventually relying on other nations to support its consumer spending and decadent way of life, instead of investing inwardly as Germany and other nations have.
Please, please, please, America, give my country some of your ‘imperialistic hegemony’ so that we, too, can one day control and maybe own your economy the way China does.
Then I shall look forward to the day when Debs_is_dead screams bloody murder at Iran for placing America deeper and deeper in debt and sucking jobs out of the U.S. economy as investors pursue the latest Gold Rush in the Middle East. As I wrote repeatedly, the hunter is becoming the hunted.

Posted by: Parviz | Feb 17 2009 10:49 utc | 2

Great post, B, thanks.

Posted by: Helena Cobban | Feb 17 2009 11:58 utc | 3

Parviz@2-
I doubt Debs would care much if america’s economy fails as I believe he is posting from middle earth (NZ). It is easy to look at the rest of the world critically while sitting on a throne on an island in the middle of bum fuck no where.
Debs I’m not trying to be critical, I’m just jealous…
I don’t know if china is obeying the “letter of the law” internationally or not. They certainly don’t have a good record internally of respecting rights, and I guess the only reason they don’t stir-up hornet’s nest in other places is they have america to do it for them. Without another world power to compete with, china would be doing the same, just like they try and keep their regional populations destabilized.
America is the new face of imperialism and as such, most of it’s policy regarding other governments is one of destabilization. Small counties aren’t fools and they realize this, so the honest politicians try to get the best deal they can for their people. The corrupt politicians only worry about a deal for themselves. It is amazing how an unpopular despot can sign an agreement with a country or company to loot their nation and these agreements are recognized as “legal” in international law.
If a small country’s leadership can make negotiations difficult for a big power it elevates them as it shows they won’t be a “push-over”.
I suppose in my mind a small county dealing with a big country is like a young lady on a date with the big football player who won’t take “no” for an answer. She can try playing coy or crossing her legs and but in the end the brute will get what he’s after.

Posted by: David | Feb 17 2009 13:35 utc | 4

great post b, thanks for the ‘public campaign’ link by Jeff Huber. he’s on target.

Posted by: annie | Feb 17 2009 15:41 utc | 5

Parviz, I’m not quite sure I understand you. You seem to be a strong advocate of the Nation/State Model, which I find curious, because if there is one thing this latest economic crisis has shown, is that a truly global economy cannot work effectively with a Nation/State Model where the various Nation/States are in a semblance of parity. Also, you seem to be bragging about Iran. Why? Nobody here is bragging about their respective countries. It appears to me that many people here, if not all, place their loyalties in principles, rather than countries and/or nation-states. The Iranian people are no more a monolithic group than are U.S. citizens. Sure, some generalizations can be made about both societies, but there are too many exceptions to claim a consensus. My ultimate vision for humanity is not to see an emboldened Iran, or a continually imperialistic U.S., but rather an critically thinking, healthy, empowered and sustainable humanity that transcends Nation-States, Cultures and Societies. In order for that to come to fruition, this perpetual game of King Of The Hill must come to an end. Replacing America with Iran, or an empowered Middle East, will just be more of the same. I can’t, and won’t, support you in that endeavor, and bragging that such a scenario is inevitable is not constructive and rather insulting.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Feb 17 2009 16:03 utc | 6

Obamageddon,
My comments were merely a reaction (possibly an overreaction) to comments by some posters regarding the inevitability of Iran’s submission to U.S. dictates (which Debs likened to “sticking Iran’s ass in the air” for Amerika’s benefit). The U.S. put its full force behind Iraq’s invasion in 1980 and, 8 years and a million dead later, didn’t achieve anything other than to make the Mullahs the champions of the Middle East, further enhanced by its lone and highly successful championing of Arab causes against Israel.
This is Iran’s backyard, not America’s. Emphasizing Iran’s military prowess and innate economic strength (in the face of crippling sanctions) is not bragging, it’s stating facts, and I wish somebody with half a brain had warned U.S. policy-makers of their epochal stupidity in alienating Iran both in 1978 and late 2001.
I equally criticize the Mullahs (as I did the last Shah) for stifling freedom and human rights, and that’s not something I as an Iranian am proud of. But in a long drawn-out period of animosity between the U.S. and Iran in the Middle East there can only be one winner (barring another gratuitous Hiroshima or Nagasaki to settle old scores).
This is why it’s just as much in America’s as Iran’s interest to learn to live and work together. Iran isn’t going to simply ditch China and Russia (not to mention India, Europe and Japan) on the U.S.A.’s behalf, no matter what shape or form the rapprochement takes. Iran will play the field as it has done so adroitly for the past 30 years, so it’s a totally different situation from 1953 and 1978 when ther Brits/Americans already ruled Iran for their own benefit and there were no global alternatives to the Anglo-Saxon empire.
And what do you mean by criticizing the Nation/State model? Do you suggest all nations adopt the John Lennon model? If so, it’s a cute concept but it won’t work:
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…
You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as one

Posted by: Parviz | Feb 17 2009 16:57 utc | 7

The US has always played hardball — after all, it is the national sport.
CluelessJoe is right, and the evidentiary record is clear. Hardball — combined with “Divide et Impera” — won it the entire hemisphere via the string of broken Indian treaties, the Louisiana purchase and the Monroe Doctrine, as I have detailed elsewhere. Control of the Pacific came even easier, as there was nothing but water separating the US from Japan and China once Hawaii and the Philippines were “negotiated.”
But the US Empire did not arise spontaneously from the phlogiston of the new Nation-state; it was based upon the British model, which, at its apex held sway over 1/4 of humanity (“The sun never sets…”). The model dictates setting competitor against competitor, and the de-industrialization of potential threats — as Britain did to the Indian textile industry, centralizing higher value-added activity in the core.
Modern versions of the model include the methods detailed by John Perkins in “Confessions of an Economic Hitman:” economic subversion followed by the threat of assassination and military destruction. In Europe, the “Strategy of Tension,” Operation Gladio, false flags, infiltration, and assassination were similarly employed.
Let us recall that both Hitler and Mussolini were lauded by significant sections of the US elite, and — as well detailed — supported by US finance capital and industry. The playing of potential competitors against each other, leading to their mutual destruction — which was the real import of WWII (as with 9/11, three theories compete: accidental, LIHOP, MIHOP) — left the US in the enviable position famously described by George Kennan:

“We have about 50% of the world’s wealth, but only 6.3% of its population. … In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity. … To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. … We should cease to talk about vague and … unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.”

In other words, Hardball worked very well to scale the mountain, but the peak is ever hard to hold on to.
In actuality, it is not Walt, but Todd Sechsers’s paper “Goliath’s Curse: Asymmetric Power and Effectiveness of Coercive Threats” that is being quoted here. Nevertheless, the perspective — as is to be expected of a mainstream conservative academic like Walt — offers no critique of the successful performance of previous coercive models of behavior; rather he is playing the role of technician/tactician for the ills of Empire:
What would work, and what wouldn’t. And one might note, Walt’s laughable assertion earlier in the review that, “academic scholars don’t have pick a side in this fight; their comparative advantage lies in providing as even-handed and fair-minded an assessment as they can.” (Anyone who laid his career on the line to dissect the Israel Lobby most assuredly knows better than that!) Similarly, the limited critique of great power politics offered here is often laughably deceptive: “… that state to reassure the weak power that its aims are actually limited …” Such a comment would be less ridiculous if Walt managed to convincingly enumerate the “limited” aims that, for instance, the US had viz. Iraq: Control of oil supply and dollar-denominated trading, control of the agricultural system, institution of a flat-tax, free trade environment conducive to MNCs buying up all productive assets, destruction of unions and collective labor bargaining, alliance with Israel, etc.
Perhaps the issue truly is as Walt states: ” …they will fear that the great power will just demand more later.” In the end, there is little difference for the weak state whether maximal demands are put forth as a “package” like “free-trade” agreements, or as a gradualist program like EU membership.
In any event, Walt does not account for the former effectiveness of coercion, or the true forces at work in mitigating the success of coercion.
Getting back to a grounding in real, and not wishful, history, to my mind, five principle obstacles — or contradictions — confronted the Kennanists with insurmountable challenges in maintaining Hegemony: Ideological, Military, Physical, Structural and Fundamental. These challenges often vitiate the effect of coercion, or mitigate against its effective use.
First, Maintenance of the disparities of Empire always depends upon an ideology of “Exceptionalism” used to quell the populace into accepting and rationalizing the brutality necessary for such control. The extraordinary ideological potency of “The Good War,” along with the Holocaust, and the original “Pearl Harbor” (documented to be a LIHOP event), allowed the public to accept the firebombing of Dresden and the complete devastation of Japan (“take two, and call me in the morning to surrender — again”). Even 9/11, an event which was heralded by the corporate media to “change everything,” has not proved potent enough to overcome the population’s inhibitions over employing the “nuclear option” – an option, we should note, which illegally and in true gangster fashion, is never “taken off the table,” even by Obama. In other words, coercion is dependant upon the general acceptance of an exceptionalist ideology which the weaker state cannot easily resist. We can clearly see the limitations of this effect after Israel’s recent massacre of Gaza: Israel’s stock, and its coercive power, is at an all-time low. US stock is similarly discredited, and it is Obama’s task to re-inflate the image bubble so that soft power methods of coercion can again be employed by the Empire.
Second, the risk of “gangster politics” always lies in escalation betraying the limitations of the threat. Britain met its comeuppance in the Suez Affair; France exposed its weakness in Algeria. Similarly, Vietnam exposed the limitations of US military might. Small States posed little problem, as Reagan’s romp devastated Latin America, but mid-sized States found that they could at least achieve a partial stalemate by employing guerilla tactics and so-called “fourth generation warfare.” Bzezinski’s success in Afghanistan should have made the US more circumspect. Thes first two levels are primarily the region Walt is arguing on.
Third, innate physical constraints have proved intractable. Europe is composed of small Nations, and so could be set against itself: industrial vs. agricultural, “old” vs. “new,” etc. But Japan was larger than the European States, and could not be broken up, as China was larger still – by orders of magnitude. Efforts to fracture China – Manchuko, Taiwan, Tibet – have been only partially successful. To a great extent, China – also devastated by WWII and related events – could be neutralized by the Soviet Union. But once the Iron Curtain fell, the Empire has been unable to fashion a successful neutralizing strategy: China is just too large. Setting the Asian Tigers up as a bulwark backfired and only accelerated the movement of industry and capital to that side of the globe. (Frank’s “Re-Orient” draws the big picture by arguing that this movement was only a return to a previous state.) But, converse to Walt’s theory, the sheer size and population of China has mitigated the effectiveness of gangster coercion.
Fourth, there are the structural reasons put forth by the World Systems Theorists and others. Joshua Goldstein advanced the theory that the capitalist World System tends continuously towards war cycles. The international system is characterized according to him by: global war -> world hegemony of the dominant power -> de-legitimization of the international order -> de-concentration of the global system -> global war, et cetera. It is the Hegemon in this scenario which must employ the most coercive methods. Economically, this is graphed by Volker Bornschier in this manner: Upswing -> Prosperity -> Prosperity-recession -> Crisis -> Temporary recovery -> Depression. But, as detailed by Richard Moore — but earlier by Braudel and others of the Annales School — at the peak of the cycle, or rather, just past the peak, in an attempt to maintain hegemony the elite develop a split between the interests of the industrialists and the financiers. This leads to mixed aims for the Empire, and mixed messages put to the weaker states. This confusion between isolation and “engagement” is always resolved in favor of engagement/domination, with the financial sector winning. Financial demands and methods are always maximalist: Control of the currency, and hence, social conditions of the weaker nation. Structural Adjustment is a prime example of a demand upon a weaker state which could hardly be described as “fairly minor.”
Finally, and perhaps the greatest challenge to Kennanism is, what Wallerstein refers to as “the structural crisis of the world capitalist system.” He describes it this way in “The End of the Beginning,” a six year old commentary which admirably still addresses all of Walt’s pedestrian concerns (and well worth reading):

Because the system we have known for 500 years is no longer able to guarantee long-term prospects of capital accumulation, we have entered a period of world chaos—wild (and largely uncontrollable) swings in the economic, political, and military situations—which are leading to a systemic bifurcation—that is, essentially a world collective choice about the kind of new system the world will construct over the next fifty years. The new system will not be a capitalist system, but it could be one of two kinds: a different system that would be equally or more hierarchical and inegalitarian; or one that will be substantially democratic and egalitarian.

Others, like Bookchin, might put more emphasis on the environmental aspects of the crisis, but the ramifications are essentially the same: Nations find themselves riven by internal contradictions, and simple suasion no longer works as it once did. One World System is dying, and a new one, governed by different rules and considerations, has not yet been born.
Walt concludes, “But what if Iran is still worried that we really do have more ambitious goals (such as regime change) and that we will take advantage of any concessions they might make and up our demands later? If that is their view, then making relatively modest demands and offering generous incentives may not work. Paradoxically, his paper implies that we might have a better chance of cutting a deal with Iran if our position in the region were somewhat weaker, because Tehran would be less worried about the long-term implications of giving up its nuclear program.”
Talk about putting lipstick on the proverbial pig.
Yet, I couldn’t agree more: One must see the bright side of the disintegration of Empire – even if it truly means for the crumbling Empire, “that its aims are actually limited.” But let us be under no illusions” this is not some Utopian quest for a “Just World” coming into play, but a Realpolitic assessment of what is possible for the pathologically violent, but terminally ill, Empire.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 17 2009 17:04 utc | 8

One fact, and it’s a significant fact, that must be kept in mind when discussing Iran’s current socio-economic and political status is the mere size of its population. Its population doubled since 1979, and a much more substantial percentage is urban, young, educated and increasingly idle. Unless the Mullahs exercise that powder keg in some way, it may very well turn against them in any number of ways, non-violent, or violent.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 17 2009 17:25 utc | 9

now the prisoner exchange seems to be the only issue it wants to negotiate about at all.
To get there it keeps up the blockade of food and other necessary means for 1.5 million people in Gaza: collective punishment in disregard of international law and its own former promises.

Seems to me we are mistaking the cart for the horse here. The object of the negotiations is not to exchange the prisoners. The object of the negotiations is to find more excuses to maintain the blockade and slo-mo genocide against the Palestinians. Thus the ever-changing requirements and conditions; if the negotiations were to “succeed” then this would be a strategic failure, as it would remove the excuse for the high-pressure putsch aimed at removing the natives and possessing their land and improvements. The blockade, demolitions, shootings, etc are not supposed to end — ever — until the unwanted persons are removed or wiped out. New “crimes” will be provoked or magnified or instigated for which the “collective punishment” will go on and on, until the international community takes decisive action against Israel and its US paymaster. What the Gazans are being punished for is daring to sit on some land that somebody else (whiter and wealthier) wants, and having the additional temerity to defend their homes.

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 17 2009 17:55 utc | 10

I usually do not have patience/tolerance to read anything that comes from, US Government Schools of World and Domestic Social Engineering. This site/blog is not “natural” habitat for this kind of people. However, I read that article and no surprise
this guy painting with new color US foreign policy. There is old Slavic proverb: “Wolf change it’s fur but never it’s mind”, something like that.

Posted by: Balkanac | Feb 17 2009 18:17 utc | 11

DeAnander:
Nice to see you around these parts and doing well.
By the way folks, I had the opportunity to hear Norman Finkelstein speak at CCSU last Thursday. I’ll write a little something about it when I have more time.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 17 2009 18:20 utc | 12

bisous deanander, & malooga will be greatly interested in what you gathered . the angry arab spoke at the same event, no. read a link of his where the fascist pipes – mocks tiis major mind – by calling him ‘a self described scholar’ . he seems to be a delicate fellow with a breathtaking brilliance. i have come to admire finklestein over the years. i think hilberg would have been proud of his rigour & fearlessness
tho finklestein would not be first scholar who has been maligned, demonised, marginalised & driven mad. i am reminded of the daily detail hoover’s fbi put into sending paul robeson crazy. this man so full of love broken into little bits. i have hated what is at the heart of empire ever since

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 17 2009 18:55 utc | 13

@DeA – you are right (welcome back) – I was sloppy to throw that line in.

Posted by: b | Feb 17 2009 19:29 utc | 14

good to see you DeAnander, and congrats on your new love.

Posted by: annie | Feb 17 2009 20:07 utc | 15

The original post (review by Walt of Sechser’s paper) made a bit of sense, but as some of you point out, it’s fairly bland when applied to the raw mob tactics used by the US. And certainly, Israel’s relation to the Palestinians is not one of negotiations, anymore than southern slaveholders’ was to their slaves.
I’m puzzled by Malooga’s massive comment, which lands in the middle of this thread like a jumbo jet in a farmfield, and no one responds.
Que pasa?

Posted by: seneca | Feb 17 2009 23:42 utc | 16

I rather enjoyed Malooga’s jumbo jet 🙂 still mulling it over.

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 18 2009 3:40 utc | 17

There is another possibility – the small state can play along like a remora does to a shark. This is what Denmark has done since the close of the 2nd World War — they have sucked onto US foreign policy, hoping for crumbs.
They kicked the Inuit out of Thule so we could have our base there, hushed up info about the H-bomb we lost in the water off Greenland, looked the other way and refused to ask if our warships in Danish ports and waters were nuke armed, allowed us to over fly Danish airspace with rendered prisoners bound for torture and, of course, loyally sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan.
For all of this, Denmark gets to export bacon and ham to the US and the Danish PM once got to eat breakfast and even lunch with the Prez Himself.
And now, the Danish gov’t is stripping gears trying to figure out how to follow the Obama admin…

Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Feb 18 2009 7:48 utc | 18

Parviz 2) The only comment I might add is that the People are not the State, and the State is not the International Vampire, just as the bull blackened with blood in the moonlight isn’t the dark scrabbling wraiths on its back, just as the people of Iran aren’t the dark scrabbling Republican Guard in their lives. So for objectivity and balance in your political assessment, “hunter” and the “hunted” are not America.
If you think of money as juice, the ceaseless pulse of mold filaments out across the ripening fruit, then China and Dubai are the spore pods darkening that rotted flesh, and poof, war and depression the puff of air that spreads those spores to the winds.
The entire earth is covered with spores now, googols of them. More money pods than in all of human history, combined. Dark chrysali have broken to release their alien seed, and soon every hamlet will have its usurous profit-extraction Sméagol, sucking away.

Posted by: Marji Poor | Feb 18 2009 7:57 utc | 19

Marji, beautiful prose, but I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

Posted by: Parviz | Feb 18 2009 8:07 utc | 20

The first reason (or possibly second, as another reason has to do with finance) why Obama was selected was precisely that: to restore some semblance of proper Int’l relations, trust, etc. Closing Gitmo, all that. It was decided to get rid of the bully on the block who destroys image, abuses power, can’t wield the soft glove, for someone more palatable who can at least speak 3 sentences in a row. It was do-able because he is young, black, charismatic; that would fit in with US pride and US identity politics, and in any case Dem voters are the majority. (It is how you choose a TV announcer.)
As has already been amply demonstrated, the change is cosmetic only. Darker, tighter skin and superior verbal control don’t mean a change in policy, nor do they really fool others (setting a large part of the US public apart.)
It is a last stab at ‘credibility’ – squeezing out the last drops of influence and coercion with a kind of fake pass card – Change, things have changed, we are now back on track (err?) or going in a new direction etc. The countries facing the US are obliged to pretend the novelty is striking and to accord some credibility to the move, to accept it in part, just as one always has to accept self-presentation. The problem is that lies don’t fly, or don’t fly far for long. So the advantage gained is slim and temporary, a last ditch attempt at wielding power in a different way – but different only in the presentation, the surface. Backlash will eventually be strong.

Posted by: Tangerine | Feb 18 2009 15:38 utc | 21

I couldn’t agree more, Tangerine. When the shit hits the fan, and it hasn’t yet, the U.S. will be introduced to WWII style Fascism, the likes of which will make the Bush Administration look like the Good Witch of The North, Glenda. A Republican Congress will come to power in 2 years, and in four years, after much turmoil, a Fascist Dictator will come to power. This dictator, and those he/she represents, will use the enhanced power of the executive to consolidate power in the executive, once and for all. Then, the real fun begins.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Feb 18 2009 16:46 utc | 22

Obamageddon: Hasn’t it already happened, over the last eight years? What else can they do, beyond domestic surveillance, torture, executive secrecy, suspension of rights of speech and assembly, passive role of Congress, capture of government regulatory agencies by industries they’re supposed to regulate, collaboration of the media in government propaganda?
I dont think we’re going to see Blackwater (sorry, XE)in the streets, except on special occasions. Or, if the great American middle sheep class wakes up and makes a fuss.

Posted by: seneca | Feb 18 2009 19:18 utc | 23

Seneca, no, it hasn’t happened, at least not in the form, and to the extent that is typically attributed to naked Fascism. I would liken what has been going on, and this extends farther back than 8 years, to setting the table. The dinner party hasn’t been seated yet, and the food is yet to be served.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Feb 18 2009 19:51 utc | 24

Yes Obama will be a one-term president.
Obamageddon at 24 wrote: Seneca, no, it hasn’t happened, at least not in the form, and to the extent that is typically attributed to naked Fascism.
That is correct, I feel. (I’m not as pessimistic as Obamageddon about the future.)
Obama’s bail outs and recovery plans and what not are a catastrophe. At best, they are the result of ignorance and sloppy thinking, Obama being too dependent on Team Dem and too inexperienced (and not a numbers man I intuit.) At worst, they ARE indeed a step towards a fascistic type of Gvmt. (or oligarch) control. My guess is that they are certainly the former – for ex. bailing out GM makes no sense from any pov (except to protect the interests of X or Y at GM) no matter how many pensions or health care or etc. GM is burdened with. It is just stupid, full stop. On the other hand, nationalizing banks and bailing out strapped home owners is called ‘socialism’ by yr Joe Six, but it is a type of fascism, really. I don’t say this from any kind of free market groupie perspective – but because a description and analysis of the problems, which might *re. homes* be shelved under the rubric Poverty, Homelessness, Debt Relief, Mobility, Territorial Management, can find many solutions that do not involve shoring up the status quo and letting the banks, by paying them, keep toxic paper on their books.

Posted by: Tangerine | Feb 19 2009 15:50 utc | 25

@CluelessJoe ET AL…
The semantics of tribe.Part 1
RUSSELL MEANS SAYS OBAMA INDIAN POLICY IS TO DISOLVE TRIBES pt 2

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 19 2009 19:17 utc | 26