Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 16, 2009
The Weird Smuggling MoU

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni is in Washington allegedly to sign a memorandum of understanding on weapon smuggling into Gaza.

I find this a bit weird. What is the reason the U.S. should be involved in any anti-smuggling effort between Egypt and the occupied territory in Gaza? If the U.S. asks France to stop smuggling between Syria and Iraq would that not be seen as a joke?

Haaretz yesterday had an outline of the MoU:

Israel is asking for a number of guarantees from the Americans:

  • A U.S. declaration calling on the international community to deal with the smuggling of arms from Iran to terrorist groups in the Gaza Strip.
  • Intelligence cooperation between Israel and the U.S. for identifying the sources of weapons, with focus on the network linking Iran, the Persian Gulf and Sudan.
  • An international maritime effort along the smuggling routes to find ships carrying weapons to the Gaza Strip, possibly with the involvement of NATO.
  • An American and European commitment for the transfer of technologies to Egypt that will help it uncover tunnels.
  • Plans for the economic development of Rafah, with particular emphasis on the Bedouin to undercut the financial motivation for building and operating tunnels.

Isn't that funny.

The first point is to assert that Iran is guilty, while the second point is to find out who is guilty.

Acting on the third point would be against the law of the sea unless there is a U.N. Security Council resolution on the issue which will never come.

The fourth point is a request for ground penetrating radar to detect tunnels. Commercial GPR works up to 15m deep from the surface under optimal conditions. Tunnels dug deeper will not be detected by them.

The fifth point may bring additional income to the tunnel diggers. It will not replace their current trade.

In all, this sounds a bit of a stunt and I wonder what Livni really wants in DC.

Also on the Gaza rockets. Two weeks ago the Jerusalem Post reported that the longer range Hamas rockets are from China.

The Grad-model Katyusha rockets that were fired into Beersheba on Wednesday were manufactured in China and smuggled into Gaza after the Sinai border wall was blown up by Hamas in January, defense officials said.

The three countries that manufacture Grad-model Katyushas are China, Russia and Bulgaria.


From China, the rockets make several stops before reaching Gaza. In many cases, officials said, they are bought by Iran or Hizbullah and then transferred to Sinai.

In some instances, the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) has learned of weapons that came from Yemen and Eritrea, were moved to Sudan, then north to Egypt, and finally smuggled into Gaza.

According to those defense officials the rockets are not made in Iran and never seem never to touch Iran or Lebanese ground. They do not know who pays for them ('bought by Iran or Hizbullah') but assert they take about the longest possible smuggling route touching all countries that are on Israel's current enemy list.

But how does that fit with the first MoU assertion?

Comments

Nice forensic work. Especially like the contradiction between 1 and 2. So what do you think she is doing there? Green light for an attack on Lebanon (especially given the drought they have coming this summer)?

Posted by: mo | Jan 16 2009 16:22 utc | 1

Aluf Benn wrote in Haaretz yesterday that the timing for signing this is tight because Condi & Co will be out of office in a few days, and this represents Bush giving Israel a “foot in the door” with the incoming Obama administration.

Posted by: Badger | Jan 16 2009 16:27 utc | 2

Yes I read that and it made it as much sense as the MOU itself. Something Condi signs on Friday ties Obamas hand on Tuesday? I don’t buy it.
p.s. did anyone read that Obama had a secret dinner at Wilson institute? As American think tanks go, this one doesnt seem so far up Israels a***

Posted by: mo | Jan 16 2009 16:39 utc | 3

Saw that as well, and I think there’s a lot at play here.
1) Most critical – Obama. Bush and Israel are trying to sign a quick agreement that ties Obama’s hands.
1A) Obama will be REQUIRED to make “declaration calling on the international community to deal with the smuggling of arms from Iran to terrorist groups.” This should help disrupt ideas abtou negotiating with Iran by starting things off on a bad foot (not that I believe Obama is that interested in making new friends in Iran, anyway).
1B) Intelligence sharing is critical, and the US will be committed to it by agreement. Bobby Inman tells a story that after the 1982 bombing of Osirak, he took some mild actions to limit Israel from having full access to US intelligence photos (they used US satellite photos to plot their route) more than 200 miles to the border. He links this action with his eventual ouster from government.
If Israel is worried the US might show displeasure with Israeli actions by limiting intelligence – well, they have a guarantee in writing now.
2) The shipping program. It would violate international law as you say, but the US is making a big push to say piracy=terrorism (thereby justifying everything we do on the high seas). This is part of that push.
3) American “advisors.” Real tech transfer and economic development into the Sinai won’t change much. But presumably high tech American equipment needs high tech American workers to run it. And economic development programs need administrators. So these programs look like a slow push to insert more US “advisors” into the Sinai, along with the usual bribes of money and tech for Mubarak to ensure he goes along with it.

Posted by: Bill | Jan 16 2009 17:21 utc | 4

“Isn’t that funny.
The first point is to assert that Iran is guilty, while the second point is to find out who is guilty.”
Yawn …. Don’t worry, we’re used to it.

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 16 2009 17:46 utc | 5

The MoU has been signed

The agreement signed between the U.S. and Israel Friday appears to place much of the blame for recent violence on Hamas, saying “the acquisition and use of arms and related materiel by terrorists against Israel were the direct causes of recent hostilities.”
The deal also ‘Unequivocally’ condemns “terrorism as unjustifiable, wherever and by whomever committed and whatever the motivation, in particular, the recent rocket and mortar attacks and other hostile activity perpetrated against Israel from Gaza by terrorist organizations.”
It also said that “Israel, like all nations, enjoys the inherent right of self defense, including the right to defend itself against terrorism through appropriate action.”

Earlier on Friday, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack declined to provide specifics on on what assets the United States might provide under the deal, saying the basic idea was to ensure “Hamas is not able to be resupplied via sea, land or air.”
He said no U.S. personnel were expected to be stationed in Gaza or in Egypt.

Meanwhile Israel is thinking of a unilateral ceasefire which would of course leave all issues unresolved:

The cabinet will hold on vote on Saturday over whether to enact a unilateral cease-fire with Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
The decision would mean Israel has decided to end the operation without an agreement with Hamas, relying instead on the support of the United States and Egypt in battling arms smuggling.
A government source emphasized that there has been great progress with Egypt in reaching an agreement on fighting arms smuggling. The deal would require the combined use of technological measures to fight smuggling on the border between Gaza and Egypt, operations against smugglers in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, and the use of international experts to identify smuggling tunnels on the border.
The deal would also call for cooperation between Israel and Egypt on matters relating to the Gaza Strip in which they have shared interests, without the interference of Hamas.

Posted by: b | Jan 16 2009 18:30 utc | 6

Ah, Sudan again. The Sudanese government I’m sure is taking notes on the Israeli justification for the destruction in Gaza. It will be torturous to hear from the Save Darfur organization, which has the backing of prominent Zionists, the logic of how their situation is different from Gaza.
I don’t want to make light of the plight of any people. It’s the cynical manipulation of truth and tragedy that makes it so sickening. Every time I hear the term ‘Operation Cast Lead,’ I think of toy soldiers.

Posted by: biklett | Jan 16 2009 18:37 utc | 7

For what it’s worth, Bolivia and Venezuela have cut diplomatic relations with Israel, with Bolivia planning to refer it’s actions to the Hague ICC. Crickets from the western press, of course.
Of course.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Jan 16 2009 19:07 utc | 8

And just in time, the chief prosecutor of the ICC states it has no jurisdiction over Israeli war crimes.
They need a special invitation to deal with the child killers in Gaza, it seems.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Jan 16 2009 19:10 utc | 9

A thought. Only partly relevant to the present thread on Gaza.
The Palestinian casualties must be much higher than presently stated. The demolition by bombing of residential buildings is so extensive as to have overtaken the Palestinian capacity to clear them and recover dead bodies. When, after the cease-fire is achieved (if it is ever), a thorough search is made, many more dead will be recovered.
The situation must be similar to the bombing of Dresden in 1945, where the rescue services were so overwhelmed that no-one ever knew how many were killed.
In this case, the destroyed buildings are interdicted by Israeli fire, and the bodies cannot be recovered. Nor those who might have still lived.
The figures at the end will be quite different from what they are now.

Posted by: Alex | Jan 16 2009 21:22 utc | 10

As I have posted elsewhere the Obama administration has undertaken to engage with Hamas and we have to look at Rice’s meeting with Livni at least partially, as being an attempt to constrain the new administration’s ability to cut a deal with Hamas.
israel will argue the MOU contrains amerika from talking with Hamas at all, until the rocket attacks stop but if Obama has any balls (a highly dubious proposition) he will still be able to cut a low level deal with Hamas to enforce a ceasefire on condition the rockets stop. Seemingly a return to pre atrocity conditions, it gives israel by way of amerikan policing more control over what goes into Gaza via Egypt.
The Gazaains won’t sign a deal with anyone that doesn’t substantially lift the siege, so the question is, can the new amerikan adminstration offer to force a lift of the siege without breaching the MOU?
Of course they can if they really want to, but are they prepared to go that far?
It is telling that the deal was between Livni and Rice, who must want to stick it to Olmert after last week’s claims that Rice is Bush and Olmert’s bitch, to be passed between them to be fucked as they see fit.
I reckon it is still in the back of Olmert’s mind that he can somehow stay on as PM, he has muttered about the operation in Gaza possibly delaying israel’s election process. Especially since no successor has the numbers. Livni was his biggest political obstacle and she couldn’t get the numbers. If Livni can play this MOU back home in MurderInc israel as some sort of big win that will constrain the incoming schvartzer, she may yet stymie “Son Of Olmert”.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 16 2009 22:06 utc | 11

i don’t believe the destruction of Gaza and the killing of its inhabitants has anything to do with Hamas per se.
It is more likely that Israel has finally lost patience with the “imposed diet” i.e. blockade of the place and has decided to render the place uninhabitable.
destroy as much as you can, kill as many as you can with an emphasis on civilians (after all women and future women are future terrorist incubator, and childern i.e. boys will be future terrorists and Israel can’t have this now, can they).
On the 21thJan, when Obama will have lot’s to say about the crisis, Israel will stop bombing, declaring themselves to be oh so victorious, and open one gate out of Hell. The one in Rafah, the one road that leads to Egypt.
Egypt will be bribed, forced to allow the wretched to get refugee status in Egypt, and Israel will have finally cleansed Gaza (with all its natural recources – water, natural gaz) for its own use.
Israel will than use the great Caterpillar Bulldozers to erase the remains of what was once a thriving settlement on the Mediterranean and make it for Israeli Jews only.
Mission accomplished.
But what do i know. But i can not see any other reason for the massmurder happening right now. The political parties in Israel are the same (olmert needed a pair of balls, maybe he found them in the dead eyes of a child), their people live in poverty (it costs a lot to maintain military might and illegal settlements), their GDP is none and so on, but to waste resources just to rile up people to vote?
a new Generation of Israeli Draftees have passed the Blood Baptism that comes with the killing of the innocent, and these Kids are now full fledged Citizen of the State. We will soon see them in Goa, on drugs, desperately trying to forget.
So there is nothing to be gained other than the cleansing of Gaza from its people – conquering terrain and importing people from Israel main, I hear the old settlers would very much like to go back.
As for the death toll – we will never know, just as we don’t know how many died in Iraq, Afghanistan, the empire does not do body counts.
Hope/Change – my very lovely white backside.

Posted by: sabine | Jan 16 2009 22:08 utc | 12

to finish up, the memorandum of understanding regarding the weapon smugglign to Gaza, hogwash, nothing else.
Saving Face, no we’s not murderers, them Iranians – evil, them Arabs – evil, Islam – evil, axis of evil, fear fear fear.
move ahead nothing to see here, just business as usual, and we need someone guilty of something.
And Iran can’t have nuclear power, we have said this before we did, because if they did, the arab world would loose respect of Israel?, grow a spine? resist the bribes/force of the empire?
This memorandum is more for the us American consumption. binding it to the genocide to keep them in line, Israel needs money, weapons etc.
The empire is bankrupt, morally, financially, emotionally.
And for the UN and all its branches, it is a toothless old tiger, ready to retire.

Posted by: sabine | Jan 16 2009 22:22 utc | 13

from the ground penetrationg radar link
In 2005, the European Telecommunications Standards Institute deemed it necessary to regulate GPR equipment and GPR operators to control excess emissions of electromagnetic radiation. The European GPR association (EuroGPR) was formed as a trade association to represent and protect the legitimate use of GPR in Europe.
why is this have been necessary if it is a non-destructive method? can overdoses of electromagnetic radiation be harmful to ones health. can ‘mistakes’ damage the health of the population in the immediate region?

Posted by: annie | Jan 16 2009 22:48 utc | 14

comme sabine – i give this stupid livni/rice – document my very lovely white backside & i wouldn”t even bother to wipe that backside with it

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 16 2009 23:03 utc | 15

comme sabine – i give this stupid livni/rice – document my very lovely white backside & i wouldn”t even bother to wipe that backside with it

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 16 2009 23:04 utc | 16

Does this MoU have any sort of legal weight? Signed on the last day of a lame-duck administration without any Congressional approval. Right now, it would seem to be just a piece of paper–you know, what the-about-to-be-evicted Current Occupant thinks the US Constitution is.

Posted by: Obelix | Jan 16 2009 23:32 utc | 17

tippi photo op, we’re pandering to israeli election ploys.

Posted by: annie | Jan 17 2009 3:38 utc | 18

Livni and Rice are like two vultures stooping over carrion.

Posted by: Copeland | Jan 17 2009 3:49 utc | 19

UN Secretary General Ban ki-Moon, a US lackey, went to Israel yesterday. He condemned Palestine actions but is only “concerned” about the mass killing of civilians, including hundreds of children, by Israel.
“I am well aware that rockets have been fired at Israeli civilians for years from Gaza. I have always condemned these rockets as acts of terrorism.
“But I must also be concerned at the suffering of Palestinian civilians in Gaza. Many people have died and are still dying. Civilian suffering has reached an unbearable point.
“We don’t have any more time to lose. We must end civilian suffering now.
“I count on the wise leadership of the Israeli Government. I want to thank Foreign Minister Livni again for welcoming me to Israel and I look forward to the remainder of my visit. Thank you very much.”
http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=400

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 17 2009 5:08 utc | 20

An American and European commitment for the transfer of technologies to Egypt that will help it uncover tunnels.
Pentagon Press Secretary Geoff Morrell, January 08, 2009:
“I mean, the only thing that we have any sort of tangential relationship to is sort of an Army Corps of Engineers consulting or advisory role, a civilian program where we are helping the Egyptians sort of go after some of these tunnels that exist down near Rafah between Egypt and the Gaza strip. But you’re talking about a couple of handfuls of civilians in an advisory capacity to the Egyptians, who are the lead on that operation. And that’s been going on, I think, for several months, maybe more than a year.
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4336

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 17 2009 5:17 utc | 21

Text of the MoU

Posted by: b | Jan 17 2009 5:30 utc | 22

Slightly OT, but in the context of what weapons (none) the Hamas will be allowed and the weapons the IDF will continue to be supplied with (by the US) — on Danish Radio it was finally mentioned that the IDF is using white phosphorus — the report from doctors who have treated patients who died and they checked and found their wounds are those of whitey pete.
In fact, the radio even gave a stomach churning description of what phosphorus does, that it burns down through the flesh to the internal organs, or the bone, whichever comes first.
A link and another — yeah, I know the IDF will push back saying that the shells were empty or that they were used only for smoke screens, but still…

Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Jan 17 2009 6:34 utc | 23

if israel wants the real estate, they should do like we do here–pour drugs into the ghettoes and just let “those people” tear each other apart, then “get tough on crime” by killing and incarcerating the problem. next, buy up the rubble for pennies on the dollar, then gentrify. the great thing is you don’t ever have to risk incurring global condemnation because bloating prison rates to 1 out of 10 behind bars is much less dramatic than the raining of hellfire.

Posted by: Lizard | Jan 17 2009 7:00 utc | 24

A quick scan of the text of the MoU looks to me pretty tepid. Is there anything there which the US is not already doing?
If that reading is correct, is there any purpose to it other than to get Israel to stop action before the inauguration?

Posted by: Alex | Jan 17 2009 9:45 utc | 25

Deleted by the Haaretz censors but still in google cache

The testimonies of Gaza Strip residents are revealing new details about the Israel Defense Forces’ mode of operation there. In the past two days, Beit Lahia residents forced from their homes said soldiers were posing as members of Hamas’ armed wing while advancing on the ground
Gaza resident S. told Haaretz he heard several people say they saw armed men wearing the uniforms and symbols of the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, who “called out to each other in Arabic, as if they had caught a collaborator, and then, with the element of surprise, went into the houses
.A Gaza radio station warned that troops posing as locals were driving a vehicle normally used by paramedics. Residents said the radio broadcaster listed the vehicle’s license plate number and color
.Haaretz has also learned that one of the army’s methods for evacuating a home is to fire a missile toward its upper level. That is how B.’s house in Sajaiyeh was destroyed. It was bombed just a few minutes after a missile struck and 40 shell-shocked family members walked out of the house
.The IDF has also forced at least 40,000 people to leave their homes in agricultural and border areas. In Rafah, most of the 20,000 people removed from their homes were lodging with relatives and not in UNRWA facilities

Posted by: b | Jan 17 2009 11:19 utc | 26

@Alex – If that reading is correct, is there any purpose to it other than to get Israel to stop action before the inauguration?
An (election) photo op for Livni might be the mot important point here.

Posted by: b | Jan 17 2009 11:20 utc | 27

Well, the whole MoU stunt is bizarre as it seems to have been negotiated on the assumption that the Egyptians, who don’t appear to have been consulted, will play nice pussycat. Rather awkwardly, the Egyptian FM has publicly dismissed the MoU this morning.
The rather obvious reason for this is that much of the military materiel that gets smuggled into Gaza – ie mortars, rpg’s and guns – is actually pilfered from Egyptian military stores, rather than having an exotic source.
FWIW, I doubt that the MoU has any binding status on the incoming administration – they are perfectly free to ignore or reject it should they choose to; it is, however, a nice little pre-election stunt for Livni.

Posted by: dan | Jan 17 2009 13:06 utc | 28

well, well, well
shoe throwing in/at the snakes: US journalists call Livni a ‘terrorist’

Posted by: rudolf | Jan 17 2009 14:34 utc | 29

Obama is not better (may be worse) when it comes to Iran. His appointments and selections of advisors, policy & private meetings are indications of more Zionist influence.
FP report of secret dinner with mostly anti Iran so called expert. List includes beside known anti Iran Zionists including Esfandyari (Jew) wife of Shaul Bakhash well known anti IRI former Shah Royalist. Esfandyari was arrested in Iran last year because of illegal activities for US. but some member jewish member of his speech writers .
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/

Posted by: Loyal | Jan 17 2009 17:01 utc | 30

Don Bacon @20
Ban Ki Moon spoke to the Lebanese parliament today and it was pathetic. Nabih Berri, in introducing him, quoted John Bolton “Bye, Bye UN”. While Berri said he wasn’t quite at the point of saying this, he said the SC was totally helpless and worthless.
Ban did not address his criticisms, but reiterated his normal banalities, including asking for an apology from Israel for bombing the UN facility in Gaza city. Unbelievable.

Posted by: ww | Jan 17 2009 17:05 utc | 31

rudolf, from your link
Livni only lost her peace of mind once, when she was asked by an al-Jazeera reporter if her visit to Washington was part of her election campaign.
i guess i’m not alone in noticing the obvious

Posted by: annie | Jan 17 2009 18:28 utc | 32

stunning video
Sir Gerald Kaufman, House of Commons (British Parliament), January 15, 2009: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza
partial text

My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.
On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that
“500 of them were militants.”
That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.
The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni’s father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.
Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah’s previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat’s death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.
The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said:
“You make peace by talking to your enemies.”

Posted by: annie | Jan 17 2009 19:28 utc | 33

you should watch this video of the Palestinian doctor and peace activist on Israeli TV after some of his children were killed (likely not accidentially).
He and the wounded were taken to Israel, where he works in a hospital. He held a press conference there and talked of peace and goodwill:

At that point in the press conference, the doctor’s words were disrupted by Levana Stern, a mother of three soldiers.
“What’s wrong with you, have you all gone crazy?” she said. “My son is in the paratroopers, who knows what you had inside your home, nobody is talking about that. Nobody is talking. Who knows what kind of weapons were in your house; so what if he’s a doctor? The soldiers knew exactly. They had weapons inside the home, you should be ashamed. I have three soldiers, why are they firing at them? All of you should be ashamed.”
After Stern and other visitors at the hospital demanded that the press conference be terminated, the Palestinian doctor said: “I turn to all of you, to the entire world, so you know that my children were the ultimate price, and I don’t want anyone to taste what I suffered. I want them to be the ultimate price for a ceasefire, that’s what I want. The Israeli government should tell the truth. I want my children to be the victims of peace…I am armed with love and peace; this is what I’m armed with. My children were armed with love and peace.”

Posted by: b | Jan 17 2009 19:45 utc | 34

excerpt from one of Parviz links,
Only you can defend Israel on the Net

The open nature of social media, however, means anyone can post material and have a chance to influence millions of people. That holds true for Israel’s opponents as well as its supporters. Many biased, misleading or even false stories about Israel appear on sites alongside articles defending its right to protect its citizens. But a single pro-Israel article on any platform, no matter how well argued, is unlikely to win the day when faced with dozens of rebuttals. Even high-quality content is often no match for a wave of vitriol.
BUT IF the masses made their voices heard across the Internet, the equation would quickly change. For example, on Yahoo Answers – a site that consists entirely of user-generated questions and answers – a pro-Palestinian activist posted a question asking if Israel should be convicted for war crimes. Seven answers followed, five supporting Israel, several of them pointing out its rights under international law and Hamas’s war crimes. An objective reader would likely come away with a favorable impression.

Does the Israeli Department for Propaganda, Virtue and Vice really believes its BS?

Posted by: sabine | Jan 17 2009 20:52 utc | 35

israel announces its defeat

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 17 2009 21:11 utc | 36

no more than 500 hamas fighters have shown the emptiness & squalor of israels brutal military offensive

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 17 2009 21:24 utc | 37

& these last three weeks has created not only in occupied palestine, not only in the arab world, not only in the muslim world – but all over the world – the possibility of a cadre of young people who are going to be considerably more decisive & more militant
egypt will fall – i am sure of that – the tensions in the military will break loose & the deep deep contradiction of the arab world have met their vanishing point in gaza – it does not appear so but i think it has fundamentally changed. & what it has also done is to take almost the majority of the secular intelligentsia of that world into the arms of those who who seek more fundamentalist solutions
in israel it will get worse & that brutal & corrupt buffoon netanyahu will get his plebiscite & will extend the war even further & i will not be surprised, not surprised at all if the obama administration is on this question no different at all than the criminal bush

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 18 2009 0:28 utc | 38

“egypt will fall”
Egypt’s economy has grown during mubarak’s regime. Egypt has enjoyed a net benefit in growth and improving welfare in the post-Camp David era.
Developing arab countries don’t like religious whack-jobs. But you do, it seems. So long as your fantastical “empire” is defeated.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 1:05 utc | 40

it is fascinating that this scholar, norman finklestein who seems so uncompfortable in his own skin – absolutely demolishes, nay humiliates the foons brought out to legitimise israeli terror
he does honour to scholarship & i can understand well why the notably cold but magisterial scholar raul hilberg took a shine to norman & was a mentor
what norman makes clear all the time – is how u s imprialism is at the centre of the problem & how fact free his opponents really are & i do not think that is a secondary question

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 18 2009 1:06 utc | 41

Also, Waltz with Bashir is interesting.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 1:08 utc | 42

remembereringgiap, on visit in europe/holland in 2003 returning from NY, i had a discussion with friends. She French, He Egyptian/English about the beginning of the war in Iraq. I was asked about the WMD, Saddam etc.
I was utterly against it, pissed to max that someone would destroy the one country that i had wanted to visit since early childhood, “the gate of ishtar’ etc….my childhood dream forever destroyed. I still believe it should have been the Iraquis pleasure to get rid of Saddam, and as to the Weapons….no further comment needed.
Anyhow, during the chit/chat back and forth i eventually asked the couple: Who will be the next rogue nation, and what will be the reason for it.
And if we are ok to bomb one nation to nothingness, what will stop the next nation doing it to us and/or anyone else.
Well, the company was polite, and i was not answered. It seems this was not a subject for dinner in polite company.
Don’t you hate it when you get asked a question and then no one likes your answer. ;-}
Today i have the feeling that people/real living beings, not fat cats, are waking up to the possibility that we all can be obliterated at any times, be it thru bombs or other means.
Yes people are waking up to realize the nightmare is real, they have just not been paying attention.
But i doubt to the actions coming forward, times have changed and batons have been replaced with tasers and such.
I guess we will see,
Plus ca change……

Posted by: sabine | Jan 18 2009 1:15 utc | 43

it has already been defeated slothrop, you were just asleep when it was happenning
& given your fact free defence of egypt perhaps you should go back to sleep

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 18 2009 1:15 utc | 44

Well, I don’t defend egypy. I’m merely pointing to an error in your judgment, proved by reference to any encyclopedia of facts.
You persist with an interesting resentment of your own experiences w/your poor judgment.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 1:24 utc | 45

And I’ll remind you once again how massively incorrect you have been wrt all matters iraq.
On that subject, you have been like Paul Wolfowitz in reverse.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 1:28 utc | 46

sabine
it is a pathological problem. imagine our slothrop. only too happy to live in the world of his abstraction & to live in what can only be called a dissassociate state – he does not like in the least – the brutal reality of fact. moreso the crims connected to those facts. slothrop is an extreme version of a certain kind of intelligentsia whose work is forgetting. forgetting everything it seems. they want this or that little nightmare to pass while they get on with the real work of language. the very language that is complicit in all these crimes
they want to forget that even the most complex problem is human & at the end of language is the human body. you would imagine these scholars would be only too concious of the body but no – a million bodies can mount up in iraq, & hundereds of thousands here or there in afghanistan or africa or wherever – is for all intents & purposes for them – nothing. just an interruption in their rhetorical flow
we are confronted by another more human problem 12 million people woke up to march in the streets to show their opposition to the war in iraq – the ‘centres of power’ ignored them, the important demonstrations all over the world in support of gaza & the palestinian people will not be listened to – but those waves of resistance are being transformed, transformed as we speak. so i have more hope than my sullen character would normally allow
& i think it is true what you said in the last part of your post – about their tasers – it has become clear for some time in europe & elsewhere that states are depending more & more on their repressive state apparatus – england is the perfect exampl of where they have created a junkie jurisprudence that has nothing to do with justice & everything to do with power. the policing policies in marginalised communities all over europe is repressive, becoming even more repressive
these practical concerns are clearly not important for slothrop who is more interested in the life of nouns than in the hearts of people
someday soon even people like slothrop will be obliged by circumstance to wake up

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 18 2009 1:32 utc | 47

The fact that my analysis of the gwot has dismantled your conception of “empire” does not mean I am complicit in the horror of these wars. Least of all is any proof that I am right & you are wrong because I don’t care about the satanic butchering of palestinians. I just look at the facts. I know what kind of leftist I am, and these facts don’t shake my principles. But the facts sure fuck up your theology based upon pathological hatred of “Amerika.”
What the fuck is the matter w/ you? Jesus, you’re a sore loser.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 1:46 utc | 48

Sowing the seeds of discontent, I know you very well
Albatross, giap.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 1:52 utc | 49

i do not know what kind of leftist you are because for a long time your view has been so close to the neoconservatives – i’m just waiting for you to follow toupéed john bolton with his egypt solution & the liquidation of the palestinian people
your pretty picture of iraq & afghanistan do not bear much analysis, much less the exigences of time. history’s little interegnum’s always open up the real story behind the bullshit narratives
i stand behind everything i say about empire, about the inevitability of the defeat of american military forces. on the whole range of questions where you have been proved not only demonstrably wrong with a specific ignorance of the middle east. you say you are a marxist but is appears to me you have never read the economic works which are at the core of his oeuvre & are really necessary tools to understand the times we are living through
i suspect you know no arab people in your day to day life because there is never any inference that you are conscious of the worldviews that are part of their polyphony because what you bring is an arabism without arabs. it is as if edward said never existed. i know you read fisks books but you seem not to have drawn from the substance of his books
so mostly you leave me perplexed & i suppose i have to say again that i am not in the slightest degree touched by your insults because your essential naiveté is clear for everyone to see – you are like an unruly child rattling all the toys in the language sandpit that you might call scholarship

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 18 2009 2:49 utc | 50

But, you’re wrong about almost everything. Demonstrably wrong. There are reasons for that.
My marxism works. I understand the historical specificity of the movement of capital as a global system. Your vulgar salon marxist leanings are reduced to nothing more than self-loathing nationalism, as if the destruction of the only capitalist country (“empire amerika”) will convince the reluctant capitalists of europe to hold hands and declare a communist utopia.
I’ve been right and you’ve been wrong. So, deny it all you want. You’re a fool.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 3:56 utc | 51

remembereringgiap, the state needs the surveillance apparatus as the state is afraid of its citizen.
this is worldwide the same and no effort is spared to prevent real education, and liberal discussion. the masses are mis-educated, prepared for their caste, tradesman, office drone, warrior, social helper (mind these are the only ones who to a large extend start out with a heart, but they loose it quickly) etc.
We could find the truth and not like it.
If the state wanted an educated and free citizenry education would be truly free, available to all, we would not read stupid essays about girls and math, and boys and knitting. Pay would be equal, and discrimination nil. None of the negatives that classify humans today would matter as all would be educated according to their true potential.
But every state needs an underclass, a race a gender a religion to discriminate against. And our State sets up the Tools.
Passports with RID Chip, and fingerprints(i almost got thrown out the German embassy in wellington, complaining about this with the history of Germany, and was told that this is just done to prevent terrorism and identity theft, i had to laugh, Sure mate.) The state lets me know, i know who you are, what you do, where you go, what you had for dinner today. none knows this better than the Kid’s the youngsters, the teenagers that are often so maligned by the older generation/news as little shits and evil doers know they have no choice other to obey, or else they will be eternally unemployed/poor sobs. Misbehave in school, permanent record, smoke weed, permanent record etc. our society of today has lost all grace and common sense, and thinks nothing of criminalizing their future adults and taxpayers.
But, and this is a big but, After loosing all hope, i hope some will loose fear of the state and just accept in one way or another it does not matter anymore and just start to undermine the state. Be it by tax evasion, trading goods and services, simple bartering, sharing, etc. As this is the only way…..Starve the Beast.
As for Sloth, Opportuniste – je tourne ma veste (Renould is the name of the singer?). He has no opinion of his own, he just comes to piss in the corner. Ignore him.

Posted by: sabine | Jan 18 2009 4:03 utc | 52

I’ve contributed a great deal here. Say what you want to win friends who altogether, when obviously wrong altogether, happily attack the person who offers correction. If that’s pissing, then open your mouth and swallow, sabine.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 4:11 utc | 53

SOW, they had a fairly creepy post on BBC tonight how in ????, presume it’s Canada, anyway the reporter said that in 94.5% (<-- creepy part, the Nazi accuracy) of hospital admissions of protesters, on-call attending physicians had reported signs of police brutality: blunt force trauma, fist or boot bruising, handcuffs wracked on until blood ring formed, that kind of thing, on ~2/3rd's of the protestors. The creepy part was physicians hadn't reported these signs to authorities, but to a medical reporter/statistician (hence the 94.5%). When asked why they didn't report the obvious signs of illegal police abuse, they said, "We have received no training or policy direction on how to respond." Imagine the Brits who first discovered Treblinka saying something like that. Imagine Americans, for that matter, calmly watching Gaza liquidation over pizza.

Posted by: Polly περιπατητικός | Jan 18 2009 4:39 utc | 54

slothrop, i have read your contributions here, and most of the time you seem obnoxious in your disregard to the barkeep and patrons, and more interested in interrupting than contributing.
as to my comment, i more sought of an animal that is in an unusual neighborhood leaving scent to mark their presence.
As for your open mouth and swallow comment, am I supposed to feel insulted?
I believe it says more about you than you would like, anyways if you like “all natural champagne” , there are partners for you out there that for sure would play along if you ask nicely.
Me i prefer sex based on mutual consent, passion, desire, respect for my partner, love etc.. Humiliation and insults just don’t do it for me.
Bored now

Posted by: sabine | Jan 18 2009 5:00 utc | 55

I don’t care about the satanic butchering of palestinians. I just look at the facts. I know what kind of leftist I am, and these facts don’t shake my principles.
?

Posted by: Lizard | Jan 18 2009 5:14 utc | 56

not so strange that slothrop uses pissing because in the end it is clear that he sees ‘deabte’ & ‘discourse’ as an elevated pissing context
he has ‘defeated’ me, he has also ‘defeated’ our host, he has ‘defeated’ others as if he is a one person 82nd airborne
of course, these ‘defeats’ take place in his imagination – where it is also clear his ‘marxism’ is created. this imagination of his ahistorical, lives without context, possesses no nuance, admires deeply american military power in a way that i assume is a pathological problem & not a scholarly one, he possesses an almost innate fear of facts, that given the circumstances i view also as a pathological problem
my dear slothrop, call me anything you want – the transparency of your objectives make it a useless exercise to create sense from your commentary. i’m sure you keep you cia factbook right next to the computer but you appear to have no knowledge, no knowledfe at all of the countries & people & cultures that you speak about
it appears for me that you are still sleeping within the avalanche

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 18 2009 16:16 utc | 57

Again, you link these atrocities to “empire,” when europoe stands there and does nothing, good vassals they all are of the cosmic overlords. Or something.
It’s these inconsistencies in your maudlin handwringing “analysis” I detest. And it’s why 95 times out of a 100 you’re wrong. And you have undeniably been wrong, you old cow.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 18 2009 16:38 utc | 58

yet another ‘defeat’ – slothrop is a veritable rhetorical zhukov, on his own

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 18 2009 16:48 utc | 59