Jürgen Stroop again reported for duty. Das Reich is cheering him on.
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January 4, 2009
Stroop Reports For Duty
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The Observer on the Israeli propaganda campaign:
A new information directorate was established to influence the media, with some success. And when the attack began just over a week ago, a tide of diplomats, lobby groups, bloggers and other supporters of Israel were unleashed to hammer home a handful of carefully crafted core messages intended to ensure that Israel was seen as the victim, even as its bombardment killed more than 430 Palestinians over the past week, at least a third of them civilians or policemen.
No need to worry, though.
Ribbentroptells us there is no humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.
Posted by: Lysander | Jan 4 2009 9:17 utc | 3
If there’s no “human catastrophe in Gaza” – contrary to a mountain of evidence – then by that measure, how could the Israeli’s be so threatened by a few homemade missiles. It’s not like they’ve had their water, sewage, medicine, free travel, trade, and communications cut off – on top of relentless bombardment with the most sophisticated weaponry on the planet, is it?
If this is any indication of how a faltering empire lashes out in desperation, we’re all in for a nightmare of the future tomorrow.
Posted by: anna missed | Jan 4 2009 10:06 utc | 4
THE DR. GOEBBELS OF ISRAELI PROPAGANDA UNLEASHES LIES AND DECEIT
Posted by: Malooga | Jan 4 2009 10:47 utc | 5
Israel Assisted Rise of Hamas from 1970s-1990s?
Thanks to the Mossad, Israel’s “Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks”, the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat’s Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas.
According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, “Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)”.
Also see, An Experiment in Provocation Stealing Gaza
By BRIAN ENO (Yes that Brian Eno)*
It’s a tragedy that the Israelis – a people who must understand better than almost anybody the horrors of oppression – are now acting as oppressors. As the great Jewish writer Primo Levi once remarked “Everybody has their Jews, and for the Israelis it’s the Palestinians”. By creating a middle Eastern version of the Warsaw ghetto they are recapitulating their own history as though they’ve forgotten it. And by trying to paint an equivalence between the Palestinians – with their homemade rockets and stone-throwing teenagers – and themselves – with one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world – they sacrifice all credibility.
The Israelis are a gifted and resourceful people who fully deserve the right to live in peace, but who seem intent on squandering every chance to allow that to happen. It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that this conflict serves the political and economic purposes of Israel so well that they have every interest in maintaining it. While there is fighting they can continue to build illegal settlements. While there is fighting they continue to receive huge quantities of military aid from the United States. And while there is fighting they can avoid looking candidly at themselves and the ruthlessness into which they are descending.
Gaza is now an experiment in provocation. Stuff one and a half million people into a tiny space, stifle their access to water, electricity, food and medical treatment, destroy their livelihoods, and humiliate them regularly…and, surprise, surprise – they turn hostile. Now why would you want to make that experiment?
Because the hostility you provoke is the whole point. Now ‘under attack’ you can cast yourself as the victim, and call out the helicopter gunships and the F16 attack fighters and the heavy tanks and the guided missiles, and destroy yet more of the pathetic remains of infrastructure that the Palestinian state still has left. And then you can point to it as a hopeless case, unfit to govern itself, a terrorist state, a state with which you couldn’t possibly reach an accommodation.
And then you can carry on with business as usual, quietly stealing their homeland.
*Brian Eno is a musician and music producer, also the father of one of my favorite neologism’s he coined the term, Propagenda. ‘Propagenda’ is not so much the control of what we think, as the control of what we think ABOUT; It’s herded thought cognition.
“The great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearances as though they were realities” — Machiavelli
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 4 2009 10:50 utc | 6
I am cautiously optimistic, maybe I just want to believe so much that I am suspending disbelief.
When I read passionate writers like Malooga and Glen Greenwald who are pointing out to the world just how horrible this all is a breath of fresh air comes over me.
It seems as only “self-hating Jews” can help the Palestinians and or save the country of Israel from failing spectacularly. Everyone else is immediately labeled anti-semetic and that is the end of that.
My disgust has never been greater when watching CNN and now Al Jazeera International. May the ghosts of all the brave original Al Jazeera reporters killed by “Coalition Forces” disturb the sleep of the quislings who run the station now. I don’t even look at the rabid right sites as I can only imagine they are all having continual orgasms. This delight in killing is more amazing each time I see it. It simply has to be some weird kind of projection where the bedwetters take delight in making other people as afraid as they the bedwetters are now.
Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 4 2009 11:01 utc | 7
Turkey tells it like it is
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=34337
Posted by: outsider | Jan 4 2009 11:43 utc | 8
http://palestinian.ning.com/ .
Heartrending. The western press is beneath contempt.
Posted by: Fred | Jan 4 2009 12:41 utc | 9
I am reading War and Peace for the second time after an interval of fifty years. I found this paragraph today that I think sheds light on the mentality of this moment.
To every administrator, in peaceful, unstormy times, it seems that the entire population entrusted to him moves only by his efforts, and in this consciousness of his necessity every administrator finds the chief rewards for his labors and efforts. It is understandable that, as long as the historical sea is calm, it must seem to the ruler-administrator in his frail little bark, resting his pole against the ship of the people and moving along with it, that his efforts are moving the ship. But once a storm arises, the sea churns up, and the ship begins to move my itself, and then the delusion is no longer possible. The ship follows its own enormous, independent course, the pole does not reach the moving ship, and the ruler suddenly, from his position of power, from being a source of strength, becomes an insignificant, useless, and feeble human being.
Posted by: jlcg | Jan 4 2009 13:16 utc | 10
uncle, to go along w/you #6 link..
America’s Hidden Role in Hamas’s Rise to Power
Israel initially encouraged the rise of the Palestinian Islamist movement as a counter to the Palestine Liberation Organization, the secular coalition composed of Fatah and various leftist and other nationalist movements. Beginning in the early 1980s, with generous funding from the U.S.-backed family dictatorship in Saudi Arabia, the antecedents of Hamas began to emerge through the establishment of schools, health care clinics, social service organizations and other entities that stressed an ultraconservative interpretation of Islam, which up to that point had not been very common among the Palestinian population. The hope was that if people spent more time praying in mosques, they would be less prone to enlist in left-wing nationalist movements challenging the Israeli occupation.
While supporters of the secular PLO were denied their own media or right to hold political gatherings, the Israeli occupation authorities allowed radical Islamic groups to hold rallies, publish uncensored newspapers and even have their own radio station. For example, in the occupied Palestinian city of Gaza in 1981, Israeli soldiers — who had shown no hesitation in brutally suppressing peaceful pro-PLO demonstrations — stood by when a group of Islamic extremists attacked and burned a PLO-affiliated health clinic in Gaza for offering family-planning services for women.
Hamas, an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Islamic Resistance Movement), was founded in 1987 by Sheik Ahmed Yassin, who had been freed from prison when Israel conquered the Gaza Strip 20 years earlier. Israel’s priorities in suppressing Palestinian dissent during this period were revealing: In 1988, Israel forcibly exiled Palestinian activist Mubarak Awad, a Christian pacifist who advocated the use of Gandhian-style resistance to the Israeli occupation and Israeli-Palestinian peace, while allowing Yassin to circulate anti-Jewish hate literature and publicly call for the destruction of Israel by force of arms.
con’t….
Posted by: annie | Jan 4 2009 13:40 utc | 11
phase 3 Evacuate Gazans so IDF can attack
Defense Minister Ehud Barak is seeking legal approval to evacuate thousands of residents of Gaza City to locations in the south of the Strip to enable the IDF to attack terror infrastructure without hurting civilians, Channel 2 reported Wednesday evening.
Posted by: annie | Jan 4 2009 13:49 utc | 12
Spy for Israel: Jets drop recruitment leaflets over Gaza Strip
The leaflet reads:
To the residents of the Gaza Strip,
Take responsibility for your fate!
If you wish to provide help and assistance to your people in the sector, call the number below to provide us with the needed information. The projectile launchers and the terrorist elements pose a threat to you and your families.
The power to stop the massacre is in your hands.
Don’t hesitate!
We will be glad to receive any information you have and it is not necessary to give us your personal information.
Your anonymity is guaranteed.
Call us at the following number:
02-5839749
Or you can e-mail us at: helpgaza2008@gmail.com to provide us with any information on the terrorist factions.
Note: To protect your safety, we ask you to be secretive when you call us.
Head of the Israeli Defense Forces
….
It is not clear whether or not Google is aware of Israel’s usage of its GMail program for military purposes. Calls to its headquarters in California seeking comment on Friday were not immediately returned.
Posted by: annie | Jan 4 2009 14:44 utc | 13
I’m glad you’re back in full force, annie.
Hey, slothrop, tell us more about this great experiment in democracy: Israel keeps ban on foreign journalists in Gaza
Posted by: Malooga | Jan 4 2009 15:10 utc | 14
not sure i would call it full force. but thanks malooga. now that we have the email address of the slaughter gaza brigade i’m considering sending them a little piece of my mind, but i’m afraid it may reserve me a window seat on the gulag train when they come to take us away.
Posted by: annie | Jan 4 2009 15:32 utc | 15
The first version of that yahoo/ap story reported that of the 450+ palestinian deaths about 25% were civilian. That graf was removed overnight.
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 4 2009 16:38 utc | 16
Israeli Zionists know US mainstream media will cover their crimes well just like in the past. USraeli zionists present lies as truth , their version of events are lies and deception and they wonder why mpre people everyday question their Holo.. stories. Their entire history is base on lies
Posted by: Loyal | Jan 4 2009 17:10 utc | 17
what we are witnessing before our eyes is mass murder – & as malooga tell us it is being done in the open, without shame – the apologists arrive on the hour at every hour with lies so transparent that the people of the world are being laughed at while israel attempts to extinguish the life of the palestinian people
pure bloody murder
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 4 2009 17:24 utc | 18
Not Now For Nothing
I’ve been carpooling with four guys, that fell to two over the Christian holidays, me because it’s my own business, he because Hanukkah comes earlier.
So it was kind of a shock, since I didn’t bring Gaza up, in fact, we rarely talk politics except the elections, for him to launch into a soliloquy about ‘how great America is’, and ‘why do Americans complain so much’, and how ‘our Founding Fathers were not like those fascists in Europe’.
Uh-huh, I shook my head. (‘Damn the UN!’ %)
He continued in more simplistic terms, using a directed dialogue. “Look, what is Europe’s motto, equality and brotherhood?”
“Liberte, Equalite, Fraternite”, I expanded. “Liberty, equality and brotherhood.”
“Whatever,” he derided the notion, “except all men aren’t equal! You can’t have equality and fraternity! It’s a natural human condition that some will be mature and prosper, while others will remain childlike, and fight against everything.”
He butted his fists together and smiled knowingly.
“But look at America,” he continued, without waiting for my response,”America was founded on the same principles as Israel!”
My mouth started to open in shakinah, but he continued.
“Freedom and In God We Trust!” he shouted, nodding his head in self-agreement.
“Freedom and Democracy, and All Men Are Created Equal,” I countered, ready and willing to explain the ‘In God We Trust’ part came centuries later, during the Anti-Communist hysteria of the 1950’s Cold War, a motto created by ‘Papist child molesters and misogynists.’ %)
“Yes!” he fist-pumped, “Freedom but never equality! All men are not equal! America is the greatest country in the world! You have peace and security! They hate you in Europe, because they’re mongrel nations and they’re anti-God!”
“Socialism…” he waited just a heartbeat, “Socialized medicine, highest taxes, and an Atheist hand in everything, … that’s what the Soviet Union was like!”
I nodded my head. (What’r ya’ gonna’ do?)
“They’re children,” he returned to his first meme, “Ungrateful children! They can’t govern themselves. They have no economy or science. Everything baaksheesh. No laws. They’re t.r.i.b.a.l!”
He visibly shuddered, unable to name them Gazans, Palestinians or Arabs, unable to speak the name of the unspeakable Other.
“You wouldn’t complain about civilian deaths in Nazi Germany!” he tacked anew.
I kept my face deadpanned, visualizing the barbed wire fences at Treblinka.
“How many American civilians died in WWII? Does that mean the Nazi’s were right?”
I kept looking straight ahead. America killed more than its share of aboriginals.
“What if Mexico rocketed San Diego!? We just want peace. We have every right to protect ourselves. This is our land. It was just desert, nobody lived there.(sic) It belongs to us, Gad gave it to us. We created in Israel a beautiful nation.”
I didn’t know whether to shout ‘seig heil’, or ‘hail mary full of grace’, but his wad was almost spent.
“Israel is a beautiful thing,” he murmured one last time.
Then there was our freeway offramp, and I was able to change the subject.
“Hey, I’m just running in and running out, how about you?”
“Oh, I will take the train home then.”
الله أكبر
Posted by: Peris Troika | Jan 4 2009 18:06 utc | 19
Norwegian medics told Press TV correspondent Akram al-Sattari that some of the victims who have been wounded since Israel began its attacks on the Gaza Strip on December 27 have traces of depleted uranium in their bodies.
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 4 2009 18:09 utc | 20
@slothrop @16 The first version of that yahoo/ap story reported that of the 450+ palestinian deaths about 25% were civilian. That graf was removed overnight.
Yes, the first version was wrong. The backstory is here:
UN Humanitarian Coorindator John Holmes on Monday told the Press that “on the Palestinian side, there’s something like 320 dead… sixty two of those killed we believe are civilian casualties.” Video here, from Minute 7:50. Holmes went on, “that simply encompasses those who are women and children.”
Inner City Press asked Holmes, who made the decision to use a methodology which excluded all men? Holmes replied that it is not a methodology, and emphasized that the number is only for women and children. Video here, from Minute 48:34.
But the phrase “62 of those killed we believe are civilian casualties,” which Holmes himself read out from a prepared statement, went out on wire services, leavened by what credibility the UN has.
Policemen, of which over 100 were bombed in the first slaughter-day, are also civilians …
Policemen, of which over 100 were bombed in the first slaughter-day, are also civilians …
there are no male civilians ever included in these reports. none.
Posted by: annie | Jan 4 2009 21:05 utc | 22
r’giap, here is your link
Depleted uranium found in Gaza victims
04/01/2009 03:32:00 PM GMT
(Reuters)
Posted by: annie | Jan 4 2009 21:07 utc | 23
annie, aren’t all US weapons coated in depleted uranium?
Posted by: sabine | Jan 4 2009 21:23 utc | 24
i’m sorry sabine if that sounded short. i couldn’t figure out if you were snarking. anyway, i am not an ammunition/weapons expert. but i would have to guess the answer would be no. as far as i know all US weapons are not coated in depleted uranium.
Posted by: annie | Jan 4 2009 23:06 utc | 26
i wonder if they put depleted uranium in the bombs. also, wouldn’t it impact the idf soldiers in the environment? it just seems so sick.
Posted by: annie | Jan 4 2009 23:08 utc | 27
b,
How is the mood in Germany over this? Would you say most back Merkel’s total support of Israel? This jpost article is unhappy with German coverage.
Posted by: Lysander | Jan 4 2009 23:31 utc | 28
no even the foreign experts of her own party are not happy with what Merkel said.
the experience of the bomb nights has been handed down a few generations here.
Israeli strategy gets clearer here:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733174149&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Posted by: outsider | Jan 5 2009 0:21 utc | 29
Before I begin I better apologise to Giap and dan since my uncontrolled rage at the news of more Palestinians being slaughtered led me to spew venom, when a mild “Egypt/Saudi doesn’t kill Palestinians, Israel kills Palestinians” would have done.
I haven’t returned to MoA since making that post partly because I didn’t want to repeat that outburst, but mainly because as as been said here and so many other places – What can one say about this horror that isn’t recapping that which has been expressed too many times before?
Of course there are other pitfalls. If we say nothing, it seems the world doesn’t care about what is happening. But is that better or worse than using this horror to advance our own particular take on planet earth in the year 2009AD? I mean how sick is it really, to use the horror currently being inflicted on the people of Gaza as evidence that jews are wonderful people deep down (slothrop) amerika will stop at nothing to advance it’s empire (me or Malooga or a thousand others), Obama is gonna be the best prez since the world was created (jony, Copeland), Obama is the worst prez since amerika was shat out (just about all the rest of us).
I too can’t help but compare the horror of Gaza with that of the ghetto. I watched Defiance the other night and it was difficult to sit on the side of the ‘heros’ without wondering how many of the descendants of the Bielski partisans followed in their ancestors’ footsteps except this time the war crimes were committed on Palestinians. Or should one be more understanding and do as the movie wants – cheer on the murders committed by the Bielskis while abhorring the Nazi/Polish collaborators’ crimes?
I couldn’t do either and the flick left me cold when it was designed to use the “crime of all crimes” to persuade me that anything the zionists do is excusable.
But I am wandering off the point. When we compare the heinous acts of the zionists in Palestine to the murders in europe 60 years ago, we are rolling the whole ethical minefield up into a safe cliche, and in an odd way ‘giving permission’ to the zionists for their brutality, their bestial behaviour.
If we truly want to reflect on the horror of Gaza, lumping it in with historic wrongs prevents that, it makes the acts occurring as I read this, the further paedocides perpetrated as you read this, more distant. Something to be abhorred then ‘got over’.
I can’t explain this well at all – the mixture of revulsion and fascination felt when seeing the pictures and video footage of this indescribable outrage, leave me convinced that writing about it diminishes the awfulness, makes light of the horrors being perpetrated in exactly the same way that taking parts of this crime to buttress familiar well worn arguments about the nature of empire, the lack of empire, or the mendacity/munificence of capitalism does.
xmas in NZ is a little like thanksgiving in amerika. Because it is at the start of summer, it is the perfect excuse for expats to return and ‘see the family’. This year we had an even bigger return than usual, one ‘cuzzy’ who has been working for a NGO in Kosovo had a few interesting observations, as did another whose Hollywood career has been advancing in leaps and bounds in the decade since “Lord of the Rings” made kiwi film makers employable in movietown.
I had hoped to post on the current way of the world using some of their experiences as to hang my points from.
The part time kosovar explained that this will be his last tour, now that the outpost has been created everyone has prioritised funding elsewhere, a polite way of saying the aid faucet has been turned off now the people of Kosovo are of little further use. Of course the infrastructure is still a mess – but you get that.
The film maker told me the story of his first independent production deal in H wood not long after he arrived. The movie which was based on someone’s biography included a Michael Madoff figure (This back before Madoff’s fantasy ‘ponzi’ structure collapsed) That is the character of “L…” was of a wheeler dealer business man who regarded his investors as marks. In real life the character was an Israeli jew so that was how he was in the movie. Or rather that was how he was in the initial stages of the movie. His nationality changed after a celebratory dinner party (marking the successful acquisition of funding) when as my cousin put it “someone’s wife who had hardly muttered a word all night cut across the dinner party banter with “I just don’t see why “L…” has to be a Jew” whereupon everyone’s eyes swivelled onto my cousin and his business partner ( who importunately happened to be German, thereby allowing the slothrop like racists a perfect opportunity for crude insinuation).
It was immediately agreed to use ‘historic license’ – and make the fellow Lebanese (probably the son of a carpet merchant). Which is what happened.
These are the types of discussion we should be having. The nature of the mass deception which is used against all of us everywhere, the deleterious effects of even the smallest territorial manipulation by the empire.
But we aren’t – how could we ignore the horror of Gaza new year 2009, yet perhaps our posts are just like the incessant babbling from microphone clutching talking heads standing in front of a green screen artfully filled with a shot of Jerusalem, they will merely add to the cacophony, eventually numbing us all to the horror, until we too, on one level at least, come to accept these crimes.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 5 2009 1:03 utc | 30
debs
no apology necessary
i imagine we are all in rage. in the city where i live there are manifestations/demonstrations every day opposing issraels criminal war
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 5 2009 1:23 utc | 31
Debs is dead @30:
when a mild “Egypt/Saudi doesn’t kill Palestinians, Israel kills Palestinians” would have done.
Well sorry to burst your distorted little bubble but that is pure BS. Both the Physicians for Human Rights and the World Health Organization attribute medical deaths as a direct result of the economic blockade imposed upon Gaza preventing patients from leaving the strip for treatment. There were no Israeli troops on the Egyptian border. In fact since the Israeli attack started Egyptian troops have shot Palestinians trying to escape the slaughter. That doesn’t even take into account the starvation, the untreated sewage, the contaminated water and the withholding of funds by the Palestinaian Authority. Egypt and the Palestinian Authority openly conspired in this and publicly blamed Hamas when the seige started. In what delusional world do you think that didn’t contribute to the death of Palestinians?
Posted by: Sam | Jan 5 2009 2:37 utc | 32
I’m horrified by the events in gaza and the increasing nuttiness of Israel’s political class. Let’s be clear.
But the alacrity here to equate “Israel” with the paranoics who run the show in Israel, is a best intellectually dishonest, at worst a dangerous generalization.
And then there’s the old hackneyed moa reductionism supplied by our euros here that “USuk” enables and gives marching orders to Israel. Well, bullshit.
Also, I’m surely not the only one here who is uncomfortable with zionism=nazism trope. The cultural zionism I’ve read (not much) is inspiring and beautiful.If Buber and Benjamin are zionists, then so am I.
And Israel is just a fact. It’s not going to be thrown away by the morons who run it, or pushed into the sea by arabs or angry liberal bloggers.
Finally. Let’s be honest. Hamas is as intractable in its actions as it is intransigent in its stated organizing principles. Hamas and for that matter, Hiz, cannot and should not survive the rank opposition to Israel’s existence.
As to what Israel’s “existence” is, that’s a complicated matter. In any case, even without expansion, Israel the democracy will be run by arabs in another 40 years. I don’t think zionism is necessarily incompatible with this reality, but not if religious bigots are pulling the levers. If you were a jew in Israel, you might be worried about this possible state of affairs.
Pretty fucked up situation, eh?
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 5 2009 3:07 utc | 33
And I’ll stick by my admonition that germans ought not deride Israel. It’s as tasteless as kkk wizards bitching about the affairs of liberians.
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 5 2009 3:41 utc | 35
i’m not getting how people who weren’t even born then can’t have the same observations as the rest of us. really sloth, grow up.
Posted by: annie | Jan 5 2009 3:58 utc | 36
Benjamin’s correspondance w/ his bud sholem are tortured and beautiful. And yes, buber’s humanism is beautiful and smart enough to notice the contradictions.
I’m genetically a redneck and should hate jews. But experience has made me a circumspect “judeaphile,” which is not a word. Isn’t that interesting? There’s not a word except the epithet: jew lover.
Oh well.
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 5 2009 4:07 utc | 38
You’ll have to hunt Buber with a microscope now, of course. IF you can see past the Brooklyn loonies infesting the land.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Jan 5 2009 4:16 utc | 39
slothrop,
it is precisly the germans, me, b, and all others that should speak out.
Remember, NEVER AGAIN??
B, as well as me, got our history fed with large spoons.
This is what we (Germans) have done, Ashamed forever, questioning the whys, the ifs, in vain searching for resistance, those who helped (helped not just the jewish population of europe, but helped the homosexuals, the handicapped, the politicals, the artists, the gypsies and all other deemed unworthy by the Nazis.)
It is us, the generation without grandfathers, without male relatives in our familys (mine all ended up somewhere in russia), that has to teach the others what beast the human race can be.
As such, dear slothrop, when the equation fits, it fits.
I do not expect the Palestinians to lay down and die, just because it would be easier for Israel and the rest of the World to forget them. I expect them to fight, just as the population of the Warschauer Ghetto or Sobibor fought. No one can just expect humans to die silently!!!!
You might not like it, bummer dude, but such is history, a pain in the ass, if you care to read.
Posted by: sabine | Jan 5 2009 4:20 utc | 40
History should be indelible. That’s what art is for. But this “age” is ageless as anyone teaching university knows. One must constantly remind students about the holocaust. There is no persistence of memory, only the condescension of posterity.
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 5 2009 4:31 utc | 41
annie, no my question about the DU was not snark.
But it seems that all weapons that are US made and deployed, Gulf War 1, Iraq War, Afghanistan, all are fought with DU coated weapons.
And it seems to me that the US Army cares as little about their own soldiers being exposed to it as it cares about the “enemy” being exposed to it.
My questions really was, are there non-DU weapons still produced in the States.
Posted by: sabine | Jan 5 2009 4:51 utc | 42
slothrop @33:
And then there’s the old hackneyed moa reductionism supplied by our euros here that “USuk” enables and gives marching orders to Israel. Well, bullshit.
And here I thought Bush pushed Israel to allow the elections that put Hamas into power. And I also thought American politicians voted in a bipartisan fashion to declare Hamas a terrorist organization and impose an economic blockade on Gaza. I also thought Arab American charities were convicted in a US court of law for providing assistance to members of Hamas. I also thought that Bush gave a speech on the floor of the Knesset declaring that Hamas must be defeated just before Barak ordered the IDF to plan for the present siege. Now I do agree that these aren’t marching orders but those factors and preventing the Security Council from asking for a ceasefire sure sounds like enabling to me.
Finally. Let’s be honest. Hamas is as intractable in its actions as it is intransigent in its stated organizing principles. Hamas and for that matter, Hiz, cannot and should not survive the rank opposition to Israel’s existence.
Would that sentiment also apply to the rank opposition to Palestines’s existence that is openly espoused by members of the Israeli Knesset? Have you ever heard of “The Elon Peace Plan” or “The Israeli Initiative – The Right Road for Peace”?
Posted by: Sam | Jan 5 2009 6:31 utc | 43
Blaming Egypt and or other Arab states for the death of people in gaza strikes me as being the equivalent of the 19th century english or amerikan colonists who hired destitute indigenous people from the lands already conquered, and used them to wage war and kill those indigenous people who hadn’t yet been subjugated. Apart from being cheaper it gave the ability to blame any excesses on ‘the savages’.
Egypt is no more the author of Palestinian misery than Crow cavalry scouts were responsible for the massacre of other native americans.
When studying the causes of conflict it is wise to consider who holds the power. In regard to the colonisation of the Jordan Valley by zionists, that isn’t the people of Egypt or Saudi Arabia living under oppressive regimes selected by USuk on the basis of the leadership of those regimes willingness to kiss whitey’s ass, who hold power. Locally it is the jewish invaders who abuse electoral gerrymanders to select the fascist leadership who temporarily hold power. Globally it is the same old faces behind every scam, con, massacre and outrage.
Israel cannot survive which is why this horror is being acted out now, an act of weakness, not strength. The people of Palestine will never surrender and Israel lacks the wherewithal to exterminate them all, however desperately it may want to kill the untermensch.
By the time Israel is finished those people on the planet who judge individuals by their ethnicity will hold jews in lower regard than the natives of the Pale did following the counterfeiting of the protocols of zion.
And that is the bit I don’t comprehend. Surely enough jewish-amerikan people can see the backlash that is becoming inevitable? Yet thus far there has been much less political opposition to this madness in amerika from jews than there is even from israeli jews.
We don’t live in a ‘post racial’ society however much some of us may wish that were so.
In the end the xtian fundies will turn on jews once again. Xtian fundies are taught to judge humans by their beliefs, their culture, and when this mess that is the amerikan empire turns to shit as it inevitably will, they will blame the zionists who they will claim ‘deceived’ them.
Except the concept of zionism is too complex to get across in a 20 minute tirade sermon so they will simply blame “the jews”. Just the same as after the second world trade centre action, when middle amerika didn’t blame islamic fundamentalist activists, they blamed all the ‘ragheads’ an interestingly all-encompassing term where arabs were interchangeable with muslims, an xtian Palestinian had no more chance of getting off the hook than a Persian or Pakistani muslim.
Just as the zionist hatred for arabs knows no bounds, if this unholy alliance between xtian fundies and zionists continues to dominate the way that amerikan opinion on empire is formed, xtians will blame all jews, a prejudice mirrored by zionist contempt for the gentiles who ‘betrayed them’.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 5 2009 10:22 utc | 45
@sabine – @42 – But it seems that all weapons that are US made and deployed, Gulf War 1, Iraq War, Afghanistan, all are fought with DU coated weapons.
And it seems to me that the US Army cares as little about their own soldiers being exposed to it as it cares about the “enemy” being exposed to it.
My questions really was, are there non-DU weapons still produced in the States.
Depleted Uranium is used as the core in smaller shells – 20mm to 30mm – usually from planes, helicopters and infantry vehicles. It is dense and heavy and therefore used against armor. On impact it fractures, turns to dust and ignites.
The long-term danger from DU ammunition is not so much that it is still radioactive, but that it is a toxic heavy metal which gets ingested through food grown on grounds where DU has been used and then slowly kills.
Debs is dead:
Egypt is no more the author of Palestinian misery than Crow cavalry scouts were responsible for the massacre of other native americans.
When studying the causes of conflict it is wise to consider who holds the power.
The Germans that actually massacred the Jews were not the authors either so does they must be innocent bystanders. Those US soldiers we saw in horror pics out of Abu Graib weren’t the authors either just good old folks caught up in the times. Using that logic, the Shah of Iran and Augusto Pinochet were not responsible either because they just liked to “kiss whitey’s ass”.
Posted by: Sam | Jan 5 2009 11:31 utc | 47
Which holocaust?. It is ongoing now . The numbers do not matter. Jews are the nazis. The Gaza Holocaust is the present.
Germans, stop apologising. That was the first half of the last century. You bore everyone now. Only jews use it as a brand to allow them not to be seen as the nazis now.
Move on.
Posted by: boindub | Jan 5 2009 11:32 utc | 48
I share slothrop’s discomfort about zionism equaling nazism, when in fact zionism merely equals facist terrorism.
Posted by: rs | Jan 5 2009 15:06 utc | 49
sorry,
It was just a useless term of abuse.(which side is more insulted)
Posted by: boindub | Jan 5 2009 15:40 utc | 50
slothrop: do you read what you links to?
from the conclusions of the shur paper:
“The refusal to recognize the democratically elected HAMAS government in the OPT, its boycott by the Quartet and Israel, and the siege of Gaza are a shared policy. From the perspective of Palestinian civil society, the credibility of the E.C. as an even-handed international organization committed to resolving the conflict among Israelis and Palestinians is at its lowest ebb. Moreover, the policies of the E.C. towards the Palestinian Authority and its support of NGOs has arguably weakened civil society and undermined political leadership.
Are Hovdenak, one of the authors of this report, has argued cogently in Hamas in Transition: the Failure of Sanctions (to appear in the Journal of Democratization) that the fact that the E.U. backed international boycott of the democratically elected Hamas government backfired. The movement’s entry into politics had presented an opportunity to support Palestinian democratization, a fact that the E.U. failed to grasp. It had assumed that Fatah, the nationalist party of the PLO, would win the elections of 2006. Thus, the E.U., while supporting the inclusion of Hamas in the political process, would not accept the popular will expressed in the elections. Its inconsistent policy contradicted its claim to promote the principles of democracy in its European Neighbourhood Policy. By adhering to the Quartet’s boycott of the Hamas government, the E.U. undermined signs of political moderation that had begun to appear among the Hamas following its election in 2006”
“In the immediate future, the EU could have a concrete positive impact on the conflict at various levels, starting with:
• Reassessing its funding policies and criteria, distancing itself from a “project logic” by promoting long term initiatives through funding of ongoing operational costs and better following-up. Simplifying the nature of the application procedures.
• Opening dialogue with Hamas representatives
• Being consistent with its own commercial agreements by pressuring Israel to respect the human rights clauses contained in each of these preferential trade agreements and to sign the additional protocols which would allow international bodies to monitor the proper implementation of these clauses.
• Clearly excluding all items produced in settlements from these agreements, as stated in international Law.”
I might be wrong, but I don’t think anyone here implies USUK runs Israel. Personnaly I think that those that own USUK also own Israel, and to a lesser degree the EU, the main diference being that the fraction percentage of jewish population/amount of power is greater in the US. And where that power more clearly resides is of course, as Debs points out, in the “nature of the mass deception which is used against all of us everywhere”, the cultural hegemony that is produced by media conglomerates with Hollywood in the vanguard.
I don’t know much about “cultural zionism” – are you talking Leon Uris? – but I would think that “cultural nazism” can probably also be “inspiring and beautifull” – Leni Riefenstahl would be a good example.
The validity of the assertion zionism=nazism is verified by both ideologies being exclusive towards “the other” – both must remain “pure”, both based on racial considerations – and ultimately by their actions in pursuit of “lebensraum”. “Genetically” they are two sides of the same coin. I’m sorry if that makes you uncomfortable but should we hide those facts in order to make you feel better?
Israel is as much of a fact as South Africa is a fact. The day everybody in Israel has the same rights is the day my criticism of Israel ends. To equate equal rights to the destruction of Israel is an apology of racism, no better than to defend white South Africa or segregated Alabama.
Finally, in what regards Hamas “intransigency” the paper that you linked to is eloquent. But I would draw your atention to this article by Rabbi Michael Lerner who proposes the following:
“How do we get out of this destructive spiral? The first step is for the world to demand an immediate ceasefire. That ceasefire should be imposed by the United Nations and backed unequivocally by America. Its terms must include the following:
— Hamas stops all firing of missiles, bombs or any other violent action originating from the West Bank or Gaza, and co-operates in actively jailing anyone from any faction that breaks this ceasefire.
— Israel stops all bombing, targeted assassinations or any other violent actions aimed at activists, militants, or suspected terrorists in the West Bank or Gaza, and uses the full force of its army to prevent any further attacks on Palestinians.
— Israel opens the border with Gaza and allows free access to and from Israel, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons. Israel allows free travel of food, gas, electricity, water and consumer goods and materials including from land, air, and sea, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons or materials typically used for weapons.
— Israel releases all Palestinians in detention and returns them to the West Bank or Gaza according to the choice of the detainees or prisoners. Hamas releases Gilad Schalit and anyone else being held by Palestinian forces.
— Both sides invite an international force to implement these agreements
— Both sides agree to end teaching and/or advocacy of violence against the other side in and outside mosques, educational institutions, and the media.
— This ceasefire would last for 20 years. Nato, the UN, and the US all agree to enforce this agreement and impose severe sanctions in the event of any violations.”
Do you have any doubts that, had Israel agreed to points 2, 3 and 4, there would be no need for point 1?
As you point out, demographics will end supremacism in Israel. The ressurection of Russia is the end of Aliyah as a demographic balance. The trend is the opposite, emigration of Israel’s jews to US, EU, Australia. The 2 state solution has efectively been buried by zionist intransigency, therefore the only solution left is the integration of the OT in the State of Israel. Given that mass expulsion is not really acceptable anymore, the zionists are at a dead end. This futile terror exercise just demonstrates that.
Posted by: estouxim | Jan 5 2009 17:25 utc | 51
The validity of the assertion zionism=nazism is verified by both ideologies being exclusive towards “the other” – both must remain “pure”, both based on racial considerations – and ultimately by their actions in pursuit of “lebensraum”.
This isn’t really true. There’s a tradition represented by, afaik, bloch and benjamin that zionism is universal culture. Benjamin I think rejected the political zionism of buber. But it’s been a long time since I’ve read these texts. Suffice it to say zionism is more than the crude stereotype offered by some moa folks. To be sure, there are many others here who know much more than I about the arcane particularities of zionist thought. At least I know enough to see when the baby is thrown out with the bathwater.
Israel is as much of a fact as South Africa is a fact.
This is fallacious comparison because Israel is necessarily a racialized democracy. It’s a haven for jews. The experience of the past 100 years proves the need for such a sanctuary. As to whether an Israel dominated by arab Istraelis can guarantee the survival of Israel as a homeland for jews, is problematic.
Do you have any doubts that, had Israel agreed to points 2, 3 and 4, there would be no need for point 1?
But be honest. Israeli jews don’t operate under a collective delusion that Hamas never intends to accommodate Israel. It’s true that hamas never intends to do so. I agree that Israel is partly responsible for creating the likes of hamas. Ride the tiger, reap the whirlwind. But right now, the only decision it seems is war.
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 5 2009 18:32 utc | 52
But I’m opposed to the war as much as anyone here. I’m only pointing to the fact that based on the hamas charter, the solutions offered by the shur monograph wouldn’t end hamas’s opposition to israel. This is a big problem assuring interminable conflict.
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 5 2009 20:08 utc | 53
slothrop-
You must consider the fact that world events are complex and have many contributing factors: Religion and Geopolitics are inextricably intertwined.
The Jews would never have received “a haven” if it did not fit the long-term geo-political interests of Anglo-American capital.
Many, if not most, Eastern European Jews were forcibly re-settled into a “haven” that they did not want to go to, preferring England and American destinations. Ironically, what was supposed to be a “safe” haven has produced the opposite effect: The State of Israel fears the flight of its educated class, and no longer has a world repository of “worthy victims” to repatriate. Most Jews worldwide have no desire to settle in Israel, nor would Israel be large enough to ecologically sustain such an event.
The obvious answer to the problem posed by The Final Solution is a world where people of all categorizations have more freedom.
Much as I love Benjamin and Buber, much has changed since their time. It is hard to use their names alone, without specific quotes, to justify geo-political events 80 years later.
If Israel were miraculously 100% Jewish, then the next battle would be over who is really a Jew, and it would be just as bloody.
******
estouxim:
Nice post.
But the problem with Lerner, as with most of his ilk, is that they never take the long-term motivations and goals of Power into account. If everything he stipulates above were implemented, then the Mossad would penetrate Palestinian territory and set off a few more missles, a few more false-flag operations, thus destroying the peace.
That is to say that what Lerner calls for might be sufficient for him, but it would not be for even short-term peace. In addition to the above, and a satisfaction of other Palestinian demands, would be a complete demilitarization of the conflict.
If someone in Canada set off a few crude missles, hitting Minnesota, the US would not wage war against Canada. A Police action would attempt to track down the perpetrator.
The giveaway that 9-11 was a vehicle for alternative goals was the forgoance of the obvious Police action solution in favor of maximal empirical goals.
Posted by: Malooga | Jan 5 2009 20:11 utc | 54
You must consider the fact that world events are complex and have many contributing factors: Religion and Geopolitics are inextricably intertwined.
Yes. Thank you.
Question: When you play with yourself in the shower, is the soundtrack in your head:
1) Adam Ant: Deutscher Girls
2) Captain & Tenille: Muskrat Love
3) Black Sabbath: Fairies Wear Boots
4) Thomas Tallis: Spem in Alium
5) Beyonce: I Am… Sasha Fierce
? Just curious.
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 5 2009 21:18 utc | 55
The western colony in Palestina is a haven for any type of colonizer as much as Argelia was France.
When those fantasy delusions, but backed with the western brutal armies, are confronted with reality (Palestina isn’t an ’empty land’ nor a God given haven for jews and Argelia isn’t a province from France not argelians consider themselves french) you get thousands dead … and the end nothing. Nothing at all for all that blood. Just raw madness for those that can’t get over their failed delusion (just like the french almost destroyed their democracy after their delusion failed).
Posted by: ThePaper | Jan 5 2009 21:33 utc | 56
slothrop
i do not know what it is that you have suffered or are suffering that you can consistently, firmly & premeditatively – ignore the actual suffering of the other – whether they are palestinians, afghanis or iraqis – for many years – they do not seem to have a place either in your heart nor in the cosmologies you circle endlessy – as in an ocean of self
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 5 2009 21:40 utc | 57
Oh god. Get a grip.
I’m as saddened as you are by these events, but unlike you, I don’t choose sides when there are none to choose.
Israel out of Gaza!
Posted by: slothrop | Jan 5 2009 21:46 utc | 58
Question: When you play with yourself in the shower, is the soundtrack in your head:
I take baths;-)
PS I’m so stupid about pop cultue that I don’t know any of those songs and have only heard of three of the groups/performers.
Posted by: Malooga | Jan 5 2009 22:18 utc | 59
PS slothrop-
You are obviously bright enough to produce a deeper more sustained analysis, rather than your usual diet of crytic one-liners. Try it sometime. You might get better responses and more repect.
Posted by: Malooga | Jan 5 2009 22:21 utc | 60
slothrop,
I value your contribution around this bar. You have stimulated good discourse on this thread, and others as well. You seem to be able to constantly stimulate/goad our best (my opinion) commentors into valuable analysis of most ever subject you broach. You usually stimulate my thinking on most subjects. My vocabulary is constantly updated by your contributions and I hope to be able to eventually contribute more because of this.
Ironically, not always but certainly on this thread, I end up swayed by your antagonists’ arguments. Certainly this speaks more of me than either yourself or others, but almost as certainly something of this must also speaks to you as well. Obviously others here have something to offer you or you wouldn’t choose to stay in the discussions.
The more we keep learning from each other the more valuable this blog becomes.
Your homie from way back
Posted by: Juannie | Jan 6 2009 0:01 utc | 62