Hamas vs. Likud Charter
In many of the Internet discussion I read throughout the recent war on Gaza, Zionist hasbara fighters claimed that it is impossible to talk with Hamas because its charter, written in 1988, calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. That charter is of course irrelevant and the use of the charter argument by pro-Zionists is nonsense.
Several times, last back in November, Hamas leader Haniyeh said publicly that Hamas is willing to accept a Palestinian state with 1967 borders and thereby will effectively recognize Israel. So from Hamas' site, a solution of the conflict is possible.
But there is another charter in play and I have not seen that mentioned in those Internet discussion.
The Likud charter from 1999 as available on www.knesset.gov.il says:
The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
...
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
Judea and Samaria are the West Bank. I am not aware of any refutation of that charter.
Likud is likely to win next month' election in Israel. Its leader Netanjahu promisses to extend the Zionist settlements in the West Bank.
This against international law, the roadmap and other peace plans.
So while using Hamas charter in an argument as being an obstacle to peace is clearly bogus, it is obviously justified to point to Likud's charter as the real issue.
So why have I never seen this used as an argument in the discussion? Maybe people just do not know. If that is the case, please spread the word.
Posted by b on January 27, 2009 at 18:39 UTC | Permalink
Elliott Abrams now senior fellow at Council of Foreign Relations
Slink
Posted by: biklett | Jan 27 2009 19:50 utc | 4
Fascinating: it adds another dimension to "recognizing right to exist" nonsense that so pervades these talks.
Posted by: kao_hsien_chih | Jan 27 2009 19:58 utc | 5
Israel HAS no right to exist: as it was established by fiat in 1948, afte years of terrorism by jewish terror groups.
The UN had no right to give an inch of palestinian land to anyone: its not in THEIR charter!
Finally, israels insecurity is shown by their continual need for the palestinians to secure Israels legitimacy.
PALESTINE IS FIRST OF ALL THE LAND OF THE PALESTINIANS.
Posted by: brian | Jan 27 2009 21:14 utc | 6
Thanks for this. I bowdlerised it for a letter to the newspapers here in ireland where israeli state propagandists have consistently used the hamas charter as justification for their recent bout of slaughter. hope u don't mind - I'll post the letter if they publish it. (I doubt they will.)
Posted by: drunkasarule | Jan 28 2009 0:26 utc | 7
meanwhile ;
israel shells from its ships
it assassinates farmers, young people & women
today it has made a number of incursions
& it has bombed rafah
& not a word passes
the crimes that continue are unforgiveable in this or any othjer time
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 28 2009 2:34 utc | 8
OT, but does anyone know anything about the article in this post? The International Herald Tribune has this Reuters report:
U.N. crime chief says drug money flowed into banks
VIENNA: The United Nations' crime and drug watchdog has indications that money made in illicit drug trade has been used to keep banks afloat in the global financial crisis, its head was quoted as saying on Sunday.Vienna-based UNODC Executive Director Antonio Maria Costa said in an interview released by Austrian weekly Profil that drug money often became the only available capital when the crisis spiralled out of control last year.
"In many instances, drug money is currently the only liquid investment capital," Costa was quoted as saying by Profil. "In the second half of 2008, liquidity was the banking system's main problem and hence liquid capital became an important factor."
The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime had found evidence that "interbank loans were funded by money that originated from drug trade and other illegal activities," Costa was quoted as saying. There were "signs that some banks were rescued in that way."
The Corrente post posits some interesting hypotheticals.... How likely? Appreciate any input.
Posted by: jawbone | Jan 28 2009 4:11 utc | 9
Blockade of Gaza continues:
This normally quiet commercial crossing between Egypt and Israel has been turned into a parking lot of stalled, humanitarian aid, and in the city of El Arish there are even greater quantities of food, clothing and essential supplies, sitting, waiting and baking in the sun. Some supplies are loaded onto dozens of trucks parked on city streets, but much more is stored in the open areas of a local sports stadium, also waiting, also going nowhere. Only medical supplies seem to be getting through to Gaza.
...
At the United Nations, John Holmes, an emergency relief coordinator, said the scale of the destruction meant that far more than the current movement of aid was needed urgently. “Enough will always be allowed in for people to exist, but not enough for the conditions for people to live,” Mr. Holmes told reporters.In recent days, officials and drivers at the crossing said that the trickle of trucks passing through this month had all but stopped. None went on Thursday. Friday and Saturday are days off, so nothing passed. On Sunday, a few trucks went through, aid workers said. Monday, nothing. Tuesday, nothing.
In sharply worded report, former legal advisor to UN agency says group must redefine oxymoronic labeling of Palestinians with Jordanian, Lebanese citizenship as refugees.
James Lindsay, now a fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, served as an attorney with the US Justice Department for two decades before leaving to work for UNRWA in 2000.
He suggests UNRWA make operational changes and "halt its one-sided political statements and limit itself to comments on humanitarian issues; take additional steps to ensure the agency is not employing or providing benefits to terrorists and criminals; and allow the UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), or some other neutral entity, to provide balanced and discrimination-free textbooks for UNRWA initiatives."
can't get the link to work, comes up as 404, despite having the page open in another window for double checking.
nothing more to say.
Transfer, Lebensraum, eretz israel!
Posted by: sabine | Jan 28 2009 7:22 utc | 11
and another one from Ynet, this time with more humanity and sense.
sorry no links, not my day
Title:
Gaza war summary - by B.Michael - who is not impressed!!
Therefore, the only learned conclusion we can draw from the Gaza events for the time being is that it is much easier to win without an enemy.
and
Did the media draw lessons from the past? Most certainly. Democracy’s watchdog was wonderfully tamed and became a dog hungry for patting that only wishes to safeguard the government. So there, something did come out of all this operation after all.
short and snappy a good read.
Posted by: sabine | Jan 28 2009 7:32 utc | 12
I have always found the insistence of Israeli's "right to exist" ludicrous. Like it or not, Israel exists, period. Whether other groups recognize it diplomatically is a matter of negotiation.
Thought experiment:
US gov: You must recognize USA's right to exist!
Sitting Bull: fuck off!
Lol I can just see that mob of gunmen, greedheads, gangsters, and glad-handing pols in israel saying "but you don't understand, we've got a right to exist" as they get their asses kicked into the Med.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 28 2009 9:54 utc | 14
Peace Now: Israel settlement building accelerated in 2008
Settlements and outposts in the West Bank expanded more quickly in 2008 than the previous year, a Peace Now report said Wednesday.According to the group, 1,257 new structures were built in settlements during 2008, compared to 800 in 2007, an increase of 57 percent.
The group said in the report that building more than doubled in outposts, which unlike settlements are not recognized by the Israeli government. It says 261 structures were built in outposts, compared to 98 the year before.
this one is for you b:
Refugees to prime minister: end military siege of our camp
Mr. Prime Minister the Honorable Fouad Siniora, Honorable Ministers,We, the residents of Nahr al-Bared, are addressing this letter to you to vehemently protest the Lebanese cabinet's latest decision on 16 January 2009 to build a naval base on the shores of the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp. We also wish to protest earlier decisions to establish a land military base in the area of Nahr al-Bared.
Are you not aware that the land that you earlier agreed to build a military base on is situated near the UNRWA's elementary and intermediate schools? And that the same piece of land is in a residential area and used to be a soccer field, the only sports venue in the camp and its surroundings?
And do you know that prior to the battle with Fatah al-Islam, one of the tracts of land slated for the naval base used to house two wedding halls? These wedding halls were an important outlet that hosted celebrations symbolizing coexistence between us and our sister communities and neighbors in the [areas of] Mahmara and Haneen and al-Abdeh and the Akkar plain.
Can you explain to us why, after our homes were destroyed and we lost our belongings in a battle we had no hand in, we are being rewarded with military bases?
Is the aim of reconstruction to replace a site of celebration and fun and a dignified existence with that of military and naval bases?
How do you expect us after returning to our destroyed camp following a three month battle to make sense of the looting and burning that our houses were subjected to?
For despite the slogans heralding the return of the rule of law, we do not see any legal actions or retribution initiated against the perpetrators of these crimes that took place on the army's watch. Security is not achieved through setting up military and naval and land bases and army and internal security offices in the absence of transparency and the respect of law and people's rights.
You asked us -- during the war and after -- to share the responsibility and we evacuated our homes to facilitate the army's execution of its duty. Why is our camp under siege with the erection of cement walls and barbed wire and where we are barred from entry or exit except though military checkpoints and using permits issued exclusively by the army's intelligence services? And why is the media barred from entering the camp?
Are you aware, Mr. Prime Minister and ministers, that due to this cordoning imposed on the camp, trade has come to a standstill and our links to the Lebanese surroundings that reflected exemplary relations of coexistence have been severed? Today, Lebanese sellers and buyers avoid the camp due to the humiliation of waiting and wasting time at army checkpoints at the gates of the camp or due to having to obtain an entry permit from the army's intelligence office. Under these terms, the meager economic aid of donor nations is useless because economic activity is paralyzed due to the complicated security measures in place.
Do you realize, Mr. Prime Minister, that until now and 17 months after the end of the battle, reconstruction efforts of the three hundred buildings in the new [area of the] camp has gone nowhere as a result of the unjust law prohibiting Palestinians from owning land or real estate? And do you know that until today, we are not allowed to return to our homes situated near the old [area of the] camp?
We also object to your request to finance a project for a "societal police" of internal security worth 5 million dollars as part of rebuilding the camp, a request you made without our knowledge or consent.
Mr. Prime Minister and Ministers,
You, who are opposed to the siege of Gaza and the crazy war launched on it, why don't you support this same people [the Palestinian] in Lebanon by granting it a dignified existence without military constraints and laws prohibiting the right to work or own or even bequeath property to one's descendants.
We thought we were partners and refused to believe in a conspiracy theory that claimed the destruction of the camp was intended to allow for the building of naval and land military bases. However, we have no choice but offer a negative reading of the situation of inhumanity and humiliation we live in.
Having expressed our opinion and spoken of our reality and the unbearable conditions being forced upon us, we shall assume that you are now aware of it.
And so we kindly urge you to review the condition of this camp and to remove all military manifestations on its ground. We also urge you to remove the barbed wire and barriers and to facilitate the movement of people and the return of normal civilian life to its former state.We also hope that you revisit the decisions issued in relation to Nahr al-Bared camp after its destruction in light of the difficult times that all Palestinians are going through, and we beseech you to place military and naval bases far from Palestinian and Lebanese schools and neighborhoods.
Posted by: bea | Jan 28 2009 14:18 utc | 16
I can kinda see why Jewish Israelis would feel an overwhelming need to settle on Palestinian land if the Jewish population in Israel was bursting at the seams, making unoccupied land so scarce throughout Israel that there's no longer enough of it to go around to meet their needs as a population. But this is far from the case.
The fact is that due to the slowdown in their birthrate coupled with a drop-off in the number of Jews immigrating to Israel, the population of Jewish Israelis is in decline. In fact, their population is only growing at about half as fast as the population of Muslim Palestinians.
And from what I've read, though I can't recall exactly where, some Jews in Israel view the high birthrate among the Palestinian population as "a demographic threat" to them and their livelihood. Plus I need not remind anyone here that "reducing a demographic threat" is just a polite and politically correct term for "ethnic cleansing." So I shudder to think that Jewish Israelis are bombing the hell out of Palestinians and are cutting off vital services to them as a way of reducing them as a demographic threat, which is nothing more than a way of reducing them by ethnic cleansing.
Posted by: Cynthia | Jan 28 2009 15:40 utc | 17
@#16,
Jeeze, bea, I really ought not comment, as I cannot do so without at least a minimum of profanity -- this sucks!
Indeed, it would seem that the goal of anti-terraism is that anybody getting screwed in the present world order should just lay back and enjoy sucking on a dry popsicle stick.
Or, to put it a different way, in what real way have we progressed from the time of the "divine right of kings" except to exchange "kings" with "power" and "might"? My view is that you couldn't squeeze a dead flea into the difference.
b pointed to this n. Lebanon screw at least a year ago (2006?) and I thought, well, there goes b, chasing shadows, but it was damn close to the mark, damn close.
Yeeess, "might makes right", but that doesn't make it right.
Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Jan 28 2009 15:46 utc | 18
Cynthia, that is the reason why the ultra orthodox Jews in Israel have among the worlds highest birthrate. They are trying to outbirth the Palestinians.
The tragic point of this is that it makes Israel more conservative and racist, while the Israeli policy vs Palestine stunts any socioeconomic development that would in the long term have led to lower birth rate ...
Posted by: FkD | Jan 28 2009 18:27 utc | 20
Controversial Bestseller Shakes the Foundation of the Israeli State
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Jan 28 2009 22:16 utc | 21
The justification put forth by Friedman in the pages of the Times for targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure amounted to apologetics for state terrorism. It might be recalled that although Hitler had stripped Nazi propagandist Julius Streicher of all his political power by 1940, and his newspaper Der Stürmer had a circulation of only some 15,000 during the war, the International Tribunal at Nuremberg nonetheless sentenced him to death for his murderous incitement.
norman finklestein
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 28 2009 22:32 utc | 22
FkD,
I had no idea that there's a high birthrate among orthodox Jews. This may explain why Yitzhak Rabin's assassin, Yigal Amir, who's an orthodox Jew, sought permission to have conjugal visits with his wife. I simply thought Amir, like most men, just wanted to get his jollies by having some sex with a woman from time to time. But now I believe he did so just to be able to get his wife pregnant as often as he possibly can so that Israel can become littered with lots of Palestinian haters such as himself. Pretty sickening.
But what's even more sickening is that about 30% of Israeli Jews want to see Amir set free. Be mindful, Amir assassinated Rabin because he was a prime minister who favored peace over war as a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. So this just goes to show that Israel is filled with a bunch of hateful folks who are hellbent on killing as many Palestinians as they can get their hands on.
Americans are pretty hateful bunch of folks as well. But I seriously doubt that such a large percentage of us would favor having any presidential assassin set free, especially one who assassinated a president who was a strong advocate for peace.
Posted by: Cynthia | Jan 28 2009 22:33 utc | 23
Bibi Predicts: Al Qaeda Will Blow Up holiest Christian Site
Benjamin Netanyahu, the favorite to win the upcoming Israeli election, says al Qaeda terrorists will destroy Jesus Christ's burial site.Netanyahu, who claims he had predicted an Islamic extremists attack on the World Trade Center six years before the actual attack, said terrorists will target Church of the Holy Sepulchre also known as the Church of the Resurrection - Christianity's holiest site.
The church located in Jerusalem (al-Quds) -- which according to the New Testament is the site of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus -- attracts tens of thousands of pilgrims every year and is considered a spiritual focal point.
"Radical Islam is willing and will want to attack the symbolic heart of the Christian religion," said the former Israeli prime minister.
"This will incur a chain reaction we can't even envision. We will witness an escalation of religious conflict above and beyond the regional conflict we have now," Daily Telegraph quoted him as saying.
The Right-wing Likud leader said he had warned in a 1995 book -- six years before the September 11 attacks -- that "Islamist terrorists" would detonate a nuclear device in the World Trade Centre in New York.
CS/HGH
Flashback (16/04/2008)
The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv on Wednesday reported that Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu told an audience at Bar Ilan university that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel.
"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq, " Ma'ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."
Another case of "making [their] own reality" ?
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 29 2009 5:32 utc | 25
Thanks to Thrasyboulos @21 for the link. The further link to I. Bartal's review of S. Sand's (transliterated as "Zand" in the link) book
is useful. The book is available in a recent French translation
as "Comment le peuple juif fut inventé : De la Bible au sionisme" par Shlomo Sand. Sand's book is an erudite polemic, well-worth reading, though, as Bartal would undoubtedly agree, by no means the last word on the questions raised.
Posted by: Hannah K. O'Luthon | Jan 29 2009 8:12 utc | 26
Great analysis, b, which I shall redistribute. I, too, am amazed that others have not focussed on the Likud charter. In a similar vein (=double standards) here is a strong critique of Obama's hypocritical statements by Chomsky:
http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/20364
Posted by: Parviz | Jan 29 2009 8:46 utc | 27
Seems we're back to where we were pre 911, in regards to Is-ra-el...
News of 'U.S. professors calling for academic and cultural boycott of Israel', and Israel losing the PR war and losing the American people.
So it looks like, the heat is on.
Further, in light of my above recent post, something is definitely cooking...
Israel's chief rabbinate severs ties with Vatican
JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israel's chief rabbinate severed ties with the Vatican on Wednesday to protest a papal decision to reinstate a bishop who publicly denied 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust. The Jewish state's highest religious authority sent a letter to the Holy See expressing "sorrow and pain" at the papal decision.Pope Benedict XVI, faced with an uproar over the bishop, said Wednesday he feels "full and indisputable solidarity" with Jews and warned against any denial of the full horror of the Nazi genocide.
The Vatican and the state of Israel have had their own relationship since establishing diplomatic ties in 1993.
I believe, in light of Bibi's recent remarks...
it's gettin' ready to blow It's gettin' ready to show Somebody shot off at the mouth and We're getting ready to know It's gettin' ready to drop It's gettin' ready to shock! Somebody done turned up the heater An' it's gettin' ready to pop!
it's gettin' ready to pop! ~Stevie Wonder, Skeletons.
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 29 2009 10:30 utc | 28
Uncle $cam,
It doesn't take much intelligence to see that Benjamin Netanyahu has fabricated this tale about Islamic extremists planning to attack the holiest of holy sites in all of Christendom in order to get Christians, especially the ones in America, all fired up to fight alongside Abraham's good children against his evil ones.
And if Netanyahu fails to convince Christians to join Jews in their mission to wipe Muslims off the face of Israel's map, I wouldn't put it past him to create a false flag attack on Christ's burial site and then blame Muslims for this attack with the aim in mind to draw Christians even deeper into a holy war against Islam.
Posted by: Cynthia | Jan 29 2009 13:01 utc | 29
This is pretty amazing.
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement
It is a very detailed description of all the illegalities of Israeli settlement on the West Bank. The database itself, I regret is in Hebrew, which I don't read.
Posted by: Alex | Jan 30 2009 10:01 utc | 30
A little perspective. Below is what's in Hamas's Charter. No sugar coating. Likud's expansionist charter is not Israeli policy and is highly unlikely to happen.
------
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
Posted by: Hank in Colorado | Jan 30 2009 23:17 utc | 32
hank
we don't buy the aipac softsell in this bar - no matter the package
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 31 2009 1:05 utc | 33
r'giap, this is the forth 'look at the hamas charter' post i have seen in three days. on message huh. they send out specific timely talking pts to their blogger brigade and task them w/staying on target. the spiels always come in groupings.
the last talking pt i heard was a link to some report claiming it is NOT TRUE the israelis shot at the school, the people were OUTSIDE, and the disinfo is islamic propaganda, but any cursory glance at all the reports states the UN guy saying at the beginning the people were killed outside. it was the israeli response of terrorists firing from the school and them 'insisting'(reuters) they 'returning fire' that led to the impression the school itself was bombed (plus the fact other schools were most definitely bombed).
its all just a bunch of crap thrown out to buffer an old narrative of israel being the 'misunderstood' victim. what a bunch of crap, why do they even bother with this site?
'hamas charter' my ass. Likud's expansionist charter is not Israeli policy. yeah and george bushes policy was one of a 2 state solution. so f'ing what the 'policy' is. you want to see policy, check out alex's link.
israels 'new' policy is offering to evict all its arab citizens by way of 'trading' their land (and citizenship) for the west bank and annexing a palestinian state to the arab sections of israel, or something. what lying hogwash.
Posted by: annie | Jan 31 2009 1:46 utc | 34
anni
in these last weeks - because i read the press in a number of languages - you will not be surprised that the same taliking points come out with a brutal ease - you hear it first from the psychopath regeve or his friend in the university in tel aviv - then the next day it is repeated ad nauseum - but in these particular cases - the lies are so stale & misbegotten even before they are said - in the mouths of their apologists they seem even sillier & i mean really silly
& regev himself, quite mad - i almost pissed myself when he sd perhaps it was hamas's phosphorous bombs
i don't know what you feel there, annie but i think - there has long been a movement here towards sanctions academic & otherwise against israel & they are really moving forward in the same way they were against apartheid south africa
people have had enough of their bullshit
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 31 2009 2:18 utc | 35
anni
in these last weeks - because i read the press in a number of languages - you will not be surprised that the same taliking points come out with a brutal ease - you hear it first from the psychopath regeve or his friend in the university in tel aviv - then the next day it is repeated ad nauseum - but in these particular cases - the lies are so stale & misbegotten even before they are said - in the mouths of their apologists they seem even sillier & i mean really silly
& regev himself, quite mad - i almost pissed myself when he sd perhaps it was hamas's phosphorous bombs
i don't know what you feel there, annie but i think - there has long been a movement here towards sanctions academic & otherwise against israel & they are really moving forward in the same way they were against apartheid south africa
people have had enough of their bullshit
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 31 2009 2:20 utc | 36
r'giap, oh you should have seen that meeting. this guy stands up and says we need to reach out to the pro israel and this woman just yells across the room 'what bullshit is this' i am sick of working w/these people! and the crowd cheers and then the moderator says not to interrupt, and then the next person stands up to talk (and gets the microphone) and says she is really caught in her family because of her parents and grandparents and she is visibly shaken, and says how she used to be an israel supporter but no more..and it is like some AA meeting w/people standing up saying 'i am of the tribe' (this is what the jews at the meeting call themselves) and how her brother the radio host just interviewed Mearsheimer and it goes on and on and one guy says all this anti semetic stuff so i am rolling my eyes and they call out 'tell them what you are', and he says he quit being jewish when he was 8! and somebody else says this one lady told her she was afraid to criticize israel around her because she was afraid she would think she's anti semetic, then i stand up and say people people we must ask ourselves who our target audience here is because in reality there are lots of people out there we need to reach for a mass movement who aren't jewish and please can we have strong objectives and a common message and then a bunch of them start waving these disgusting handouts from the synagog meeting and yelling 'they have these!' (the fliers w/right wing talking pts being passed out at the synagog which is not supposed to be political) and the whole thing was quite the herding of cats. but one of the people said the most people they got was from the paletinian film festival they put on. some of these people have been organizing these events for over 10 years. but i couldn't last thru a meeting where they pass around a microphone and do 'sharing' for hrs and hrs. where is the organization???? there are events all over the place but nothing like the power of aipac. but i think people are sick of israel. lots of us. me, i am fuming.
video @davos Turkish PM Erdogan Slams Shimon Peres For Israeli Killings And Walks Off Stage
maybe i will write a letter to the president of turkey and thank him.
here is a disgusting link of friedmans. this is the new israel plan, i just ran into it over @ roads to iraq right after i posted my take on it @ 34. what a fucking snake he is presenting it like its some brilliant idea of his when all the israel bloggers are promoting this lying bullshit thieving hogwash. nd then in 5 years, afyter they have met the requirements bla bla bla and israel will end the occupation except for the settlements that they will trade arab land inside israel inch for inch!! fuck them! fuck them! fuck them!
Posted by: annie | Jan 31 2009 3:01 utc | 37
shit, sorry. i better go pour myself a drink before i get too riled up.
whiskey bartender!
Posted by: annie | Jan 31 2009 3:02 utc | 38
What is too riled up, Annie?
Your report is magnificent. We live in truly fucked-up times: so much information, so much potential knowledge with which to feed ourselves, and we only seem to use it to contort ourselves into ever more grotesque postures of self-denial.
Whisky's on me.
Posted by: Tantalus | Jan 31 2009 4:08 utc | 39
and so it continues, via antiwar:
Gaza City - The Israel Air Force rocketed a motorcyclist in the southern Gaza Strip late Thursday morning, injuring the rider, a Hamas militant, as well as seven passersby, hospital officials said.
The motor cyclist was in critical condition, the officials at Nasser Hospital in the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis said.
All the wounded seven bystanders were children, they said.
Posted by: sabine | Jan 31 2009 4:20 utc | 41
Tantalus,
no i don't see self-denial here. Just a need to not be so clairvoyant and cynical about the misery that hovers around this planet like a cloud of smog. Sometimes the strongest mind needs a break. Chanting works usually, but sometimes a more earthly remedy is needed and found in this bar.
barkeep, vodka, please.
Posted by: sabine | Jan 31 2009 4:26 utc | 42
make it a double for sabine
yes, i read that report sabine. it was squished in about hamas breaking the new ceasefire w/israel. of course the motorbike hamas (allegedly) person came first..
oh, so..since i have your attention i will inform you of my first comment before things got riled up. the microphone was being passed around (these people all knew eachother ,i was new) from past meetings and most of it was many people who had been to the WB and gaza and w/connections to the boats going in and peace movements in israel but there had yet been an introduction, like a theme...although we were all there for gaza w/the idea we would be organizing some event, i presume. the guy up front had his magic marker and was supposedly recording our ideas.. so i said..
'the most important objective (and gave a little blurb about the kuwait summit's conclusion of palestinian unity) is to encourage our democratically elected representatives to ENGAGE with the democratically elected representatives of palestinians..or TALK TO HAMAS. and the moderator ask me (if you can believe this!) 'who should we tell this to'. and i replied ..we have to have talking pts and messages. clear ones people can go home with, to reach their friends and representatives..that is the friggin pt, is it not?
to which he writes down on his big poster..'annie..clear message..talking pts' and my time was up.
and i thought to myself..HE DIDN'T WRITE DOWN MY MESSAGE
so ladida, a few other people reinforced my message (talk to hamas) and he continues to write 'clear message etc' ..and i think of uncle and the delphi technique..the way we are getting nowhere..
my turn comes around again and i said excuse me but i said it, she said it , he said it and no where on these posters is the word HAMAS. we need to communicate that we want our government to interact w/theirs! (and not egypts puppets and jordans puppets,,etc). and the guy say 'who do we tell this to?' and i'm like!!! hellllo the people we will be addressing. the populace, so they can tell their friggin representatives! we need clear talking pts and messages!
i swear it was like duh 101. and this is the state of the organized left?
Posted by: annie | Jan 31 2009 5:06 utc | 43
oh annie, you poor thing.
but to expect to talk to the elected leader of the Palestinians, not going to happen. To do so would be to admit guilt, participation in the slaughter via military aid to one side, and repeated kicks for the other.
there is no organized left/right/or center anymore, just people outraged at the injustices that are commited in our names and with our money, and no one is going to listen to us outraged ones, as we are challenging the status quo.
the other day in my neighborhood a "brown" kid got shot by the police, he leaves behind a young child and the girlfriend. My colleague, white south african feels sorry for the police, she does not mention the victim, but is sorry for the cop. Her reasoning, they - the cops don't have enough training, don't use their guns enough, and don't have enough guns.
this is nz, a country with 4+million peeps.
annie, we can't win, and that geezer at your meeting and my colleague at work, are just two of the reasons why. they understand what is happening, but still insist that they can make it if they behave, and the rest is for feel good, not for results.
Posted by: sabine | Jan 31 2009 6:16 utc | 44
nz? i thought you were in germany? don't ever again say we can't win . we can
solidarity!
from sharon, conchita via email.. i have passed it on to my local group:
Spanish court opens war crimes investigation into 2002 attack on Gaza
Spanish court opens war crimes investigation into 2002 attack on Gaza 30.01.09 - 16:14/ PNN - On Thursday the Spanish National Court issued its formal decision to investigate Israeli leaders for war crimes.
As the highest Spanish judicial council, the court joined legal experts throughout the world in taking to task the Israelis for acts against the Gaza Strip.
While many of the cases currently being sent to The Hague, and those in other national courts, focus on the major attacks on Gaza which began 27 December, decades of war crimes charges have been filed in the past.
The Spanish court is focusing on seven former senior Israeli military officials suspected to have committed war crimes in the Gaza Strip in 2002.
Former Defense Minister and current Infrastructure Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, his former military advisor, Michael Herzog, former Israeli Army Chief of Staff Moshe Ya’alon, former Commander of the Israeli Air Force Dan Halutz, former Head of the Israeli Intelligence Service, Avi Dichter, former Head of the Israeli Southern Command Doron Almog, and former Head of the Israeli National Security Council Giora Eiland were called yesterday to present themselves to the Spanish National Court within 30 days. If they do not, the court will issue international warrants for their arrests.
In addition to this decision, described as “ground-breaking” by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza City, the Spanish court announced that “if intent to exterminate the Palestinian population” can be proven the charge may be increased to genocide.
The Spanish court is dealing with the assassination of Salah Shehada on 22 July 2002. It was at approximately midnight that an Israeli warplane dropped a 2,000 pound bomb on the home of the Al Qassam Brigades leader. The attack killed Shehada and 17 other people including his wife and daughter, his bodyguard, and eight children. One of the children was just two months old. Also killed were two elderly men and two women. This was a major attack in the Daraj neighborhood of Gaza City that completely destroyed 11 houses and injured 77 other civilians.
The PCHR in Gaza City undertook the case, bringing the lawsuit via the National Court of Spain in June 2008. “….after lengthy consultations with international legal experts indicted the possibility of launching universal jurisdiction cases regarding war crimes committed by IOF. The Centre notes that similar cases of suspected war crimes have previously been filed in Israeli courts, but did not lead to successful prosecutions. On the contrary, the Israeli judiciary has been used as a legal cover for the perpetration of war crimes against the Palestinian population, and as a tool to deliberately hinder international jurisdiction under the pretext of a ‘fair’ national judicial system operating in Israel,” reads a news release welcoming Thursday’s court decision.
As described by the PCHR, the well-respected organization “previously filed a lawsuit in the UK against former Head of the Israeli Army Southern Commend, Doron Almog, for committing grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention during his army service, (considered a criminal offense in the UK under the Geneva Conventions of 1949) Almog arrived in the UK on 10 September 2005, after a warrant had been issued for his arrest. Having been informed of the warrant before he disembarked, Almog subsequently fled straight back to Israel on the same plane.”
Posted by: annie | Jan 31 2009 6:36 utc | 45
annie, from germany, via france to nz, a traveler thats what i am.
Posted by: sabine | Jan 31 2009 7:53 utc | 46
solidarity - will happen if people stop stereotyping others into boxes of left/right, black/white, poor/rich and instead discover humanity and start recognizing themselves and others as menschen.
Posted by: sabine | Jan 31 2009 7:57 utc | 47
Bliar is trying to make himself relevant it seems. 'Hamas must be involved in ME talks'
Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 31 2009 11:14 utc | 48
@dos - Blair has the same stupid "conditions" for talks with Hamas that the Bushists and Israeli have - "recognize Israel and give us your arms and then we will talk about if we should kill you this or that way"
Sorry barflies, now I've had a night's sleep I see I wrote 'self-denial' when I meant 'self-deception.' Sabine, you're absolutely right, no self-denial in evidence very much at all in our culture.
Posted by: Tantalus | Jan 31 2009 12:53 utc | 50
Sabine @ 44, I mostly feel like you do - people think they can make it if they behave. At least we used to have the concept of enlightened self-interest but somewhere along the way we pushed the enlightened part under a bus.
Posted by: Tantalus | Jan 31 2009 13:01 utc | 51
"recognize Israel and give us your arms and then we will talk about if we should kill you this or that way"
israel can recognize hamas and give up their arms and then we will talk about if israel has a right to exist.
Posted by: annie | Jan 31 2009 16:04 utc | 52
On that Blair interview, I thought that the "money graf" as US people call it was:
As he tells me: “I think we still have our eyes closed to the nature of what is going on and I see a complete link between what is going on in Palestine with what is going on in Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia – and this is one fight, basically. Terrorism is now a very powerful weapon of war and conflict.”
Shows what his attitude really is: it's all a single crusade against Islam.
By the way, it's better to cite the original interview than a Jerusalem Post summary.
Posted by: Alex | Jan 31 2009 16:46 utc | 53
screw tony blair. he knows damn well israel has no intention of settling the issue of borders for a palestinian state.
Netanyahu would let West Bank settlements expand
JERUSALEM – The front-runner in Israel's election said in an interview published Monday that he would let Jewish settlements expand in the West Bank if he's elected prime minister, threatening to put him at odds with the Obama administration.The remarks by hawkish Likud Party leader Benjamin Netanyahu come just before the new U.S. special envoy to the Middle East, George Mitchell, is scheduled to visit Israel, the West Bank and elsewhere this week for talks aimed at keeping alive a fragile Gaza cease-fire and reviving Mideast peace negotiations.
Mitchell is a critic of Israel's West Bank settlements, which are a key issue in peace talks.
Netanyahu, who is already a critic of U.S.-sponsored peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, was quoted by the Haaretz daily as saying he would allow the Jewish settlements to expand to accommodate "natural growth" — building new housing to accommodate growing families among the settlers.
Such growth, however, is ruled out in the internationally backed "road map" peace plan that serves as the basis for negotiations.
With Israel's Feb. 10 election just two weeks away and polls showing Netanyahu's party ahead, Israel and the United States appeared headed for a clash.
U.S. policy supports creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza next to Israel, but Netanyahu.. has always opposed giving up territory in the West Bank, maintaining that Israel needs to control it for security.
"I have no intention of building new settlements in the West Bank," Netanyahu was quoted as telling international Mideast envoy Tony Blair on Sunday. "But like all the governments there have been until now, I will have to meet the needs of natural growth in the population. I will not be able to choke the settlements."
A Netanyahu spokeswoman, Dina Libster, confirmed the quotes were accurate.Blair's office did not return calls seeking comment.
The Palestinians claim all of the West Bank as part of a future independent state that would also include the Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem. They say Israel's settlements, now home to 280,000 people in the West Bank, make it increasingly difficult for them to establish a viable state.
...It was Mitchell who called in 2001 for a freeze on all Israeli settlement construction, including "natural growth," when he led an international commission to investigate violence in the Middle East....
The polls showed hawkish parties winning a majority in the parliament, giving Netanyahu the best chance to form a government if the trends hold.
Netanyahu has said he would try to refocus peace talks on building the Palestinian economy and governing institutions instead of key issues like borders, Jerusalem, settlements and Palestinian refugees, which are at the center of the U.S.-backed talks.
excuse me??????
"refocus peace talks on building the Palestinian economy and governing institutions instead of key issues like borders, Jerusalem, settlements and Palestinian refugees"
give them some jobs and money? this is 'refocusing'
this is completely unacceptable. and he's going to win!
Posted by: annie | Jan 31 2009 17:58 utc | 54
A thought experiment: Imagine that Hamas announces it will immediately cease and desist from firing missiles into Israel, that there will be no more such attacks in the future, and that it will release Gilad Shalit, the Israel soldier kidnapped two and a half years ago and held incommunicado ever since — with not even the Red Cross allowed to see him. What would happen then?
Moderate Israelis would pressure their government to make a reciprocal gesture: to stop the air attacks on Hamas’s command and control centers, release Palestinian terrorists from Israeli jails and get serious peace talks underway.
But anyone who knows anything about Hamas also knows that such a scenario is implausible. Hamas was created to fight and win holy wars — not to seek peace and sing kumbaya with infidels. Hamas wants a Palestinian state in place of Israel — not next door to Israel. And for Hamas, preventing Palestinian carnage is not a priority. That’s not a slander, it’s a fact. As Hamas parliamentarian Fathi Hamad eloquently phrased it: “We desire death as you desire life.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs .Just crazy culture!!!!!
Opposite to those Hamasniks, Israelis want to live in peace with the Arabs in the ME and willing to give assets to the Palestinian Arabs for real and stable peace. The Likud charter is reversible and changeable, and already have been CHANGED as Sharon put it before splitting out to Kadima.
In 2005, Israelis undertook a real-life experiment: They said: “The Palestinians have a grievance: our occupation of Gaza and the West Bank — even though we administer those territories as the consequence of a war launched to annihilate us. But if our presence provokes violence, let’s see what results from our absence.” That summer, Israel pulled every soldier and settler out of Gaza. Every house of worship and cemetery was removed. But greenhouses were left behind.
Palestinians might have responded by using those greenhouses to grow flowers for export. They might have built factories, schools, hospitals, and hotels along their Mediterranean beaches. Had that been their choice, moderate Israelis surely would have made further concessions — for example, uprooting Israelis from the West Bank as well, and offering to negotiate a division of Jerusalem.
Instead, of course, Palestinians smashed the greenhouses and put Hamas in charge. Since then, Hamas has done nothing to spark economic development. Nevertheless, it has bemoaned the increasing destitution of unoccupied Gaza — now blaming it on Israel’s “siege” — and demanding aid, not least from Israel, which has given it (as has the U.S.), even as the rockets have fallen
We should understand by now that when Hamas officials vow to fight “occupation,” they are referring to any and all territory on which Israelis now exercise self-determination. Osama Hamdan, Hamas’s representative in Lebanon, said: “Our goal is to liberate all of Palestine, from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea…” Similarly Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar has said: ”We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay, nor his ownership of any inch of land.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLpFBfmIdnA .
/pretty much sums up the truth nicely
Posted by: Abe Bird | Feb 4 2009 11:06 utc | 55
A thought experiment: Imagine that Hamas announces it will immediately cease and desist from firing missiles into Israel, that there will be no more such attacks in the future, and that it will release Gilad Shalit, the Israel soldier kidnapped two and a half years ago and held incommunicado ever since — with not even the Red Cross allowed to see him. What would happen then?
Moderate Israelis would pressure their government to make a reciprocal gesture: to stop the air attacks on Hamas’s command and control centers, release Palestinian terrorists from Israeli jails and get serious peace talks underway.
But anyone who knows anything about Hamas also knows that such a scenario is implausible. Hamas was created to fight and win holy wars — not to seek peace and sing kumbaya with infidels. Hamas wants a Palestinian state in place of Israel — not next door to Israel. And for Hamas, preventing Palestinian carnage is not a priority. That’s not a slander, it’s a fact. As Hamas parliamentarian Fathi Hamad eloquently phrased it: “We desire death as you desire life.” Link to Fathi Hamad. What a disgrace !!!!
In 2005, Israelis undertook a real-life experiment: They said: “The Palestinians have a grievance: our occupation of Gaza and the West Bank — even though we administer those territories as the consequence of a war launched to annihilate us. But if our presence provokes violence, let’s see what results from our absence.” That summer, Israel pulled every soldier and settler out of Gaza. Every house of worship and cemetery was removed. But greenhouses were left behind.
Palestinians might have responded by using those greenhouses to grow flowers for export. They might have built factories, schools, hospitals, and hotels along their Mediterranean beaches. Had that been their choice, moderate Israelis surely would have made further concessions — for example, uprooting Israelis from the West Bank as well, and offering to negotiate a division of Jerusalem.
Instead, of course, Palestinians smashed the greenhouses and put Hamas in charge. Since then, Hamas has done nothing to spark economic development. Nevertheless, it has bemoaned the increasing destitution of unoccupied Gaza — now blaming it on Israel’s “siege” — and demanding aid, not least from Israel, which has given it (as has the U.S.), even as the rockets have fallen
We should understand by now that when Hamas officials vow to fight “occupation,” they are referring to any and all territory on which Israelis now exercise self-determination. Osama Hamdan, Hamas’s representative in Lebanon, said: “Our goal is to liberate all of Palestine, from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea…” Similarly Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar has said: ”We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay, nor his ownership of any inch of land.” Link to Mahmoud Zahar .
/pretty much sums up the truth nicely
Posted by: Abe Bird | Feb 4 2009 11:27 utc | 56
Abe Bird certainly sounds like one of these paid commenters that the Israeli absorption ministry has been supplying for the hasbara. Not worth arguing against.
Posted by: Alex | Feb 4 2009 11:37 utc | 57
Are you so desperate to meet the truth?
Wonderful! He is admitting that he is a paid commenter!
Posted by: Alex | Feb 4 2009 11:57 utc | 59
@ Abe Bird
These greenhouses? The ones in which the crop was lost because the Israelis turned off the water, but were subsequently replanted?
The same greenhouses that produced a 'bumper crop' in 2005 and 2006 that the Palestinians could not sell because the borders were closed?
Posted by: Tantalus | Feb 4 2009 12:46 utc | 60
Alexillusion; Don't jump into unbased conclusions.... Link">http://sheikyermami.com/category/middle-east/">Link to read the facts and not the Link to Falsetinian ProPALganda !
Posted by: Abe Bird | Feb 4 2009 12:48 utc | 61
Abe probably isn't referring to these greenhouses:
Although international and local officials are still gathering figures, they believe that scores, perhaps hundreds, of wells and water sources have been damaged and several hundred greenhouses have been levelled, as well as severe damage inflicted on 60,000-75,000 dunums of Gaza's 175,000 dunums (44,000 acres) of farmable land.
Posted by: Tantalus | Feb 4 2009 13:42 utc | 62
I think Abe Bird is proof that many of the hasbara-people paid by the Israeli absorption ministry are of very poor quality. Quantity rather than quality seems to be what they are after.
Posted by: Alex | Feb 4 2009 13:57 utc | 63
Tantalus; Why don't you ask the Hamas why they started the war at the first place? Whom their Intifada favored to? Why the Hamas is so decisive not to recognize Israel and keep the terror high even these days?
No one is hungry in Gaza strip.... I mean, Israel although in war with Gaza delivered them, and still does, food and medicine all through the war, in times that Hamas itself didn't attack the deliverers and the goods while passing the border points. Border's closures were ONLY when Hamas attacked Israel and targeted the border gates while trucks provided food to the Gazans!
Even now there is Link to enough food and medicine in Gaza but the Link to Hamas steals them from the Gazans .
Posted by: Abe Bird | Feb 4 2009 14:32 utc | 64
Hold it, everyone, my own suggestion is that you simply ignore him. He's clearly a troll without an ounce of intelligence, merely copying/pasting stuff from the Israeli information ministry. I heard there are 5000 of them out there, working day and night to disrupt Blogs unfavourable to Israel.
The only person who can get rid of him is b, but I suspect the Israelis have supplied him with IP-altering software.
Question to everyone and anyone: When did 'Abe Bird' post his first message?
Is anyone in favour of petitioning b to delete every post by this troll? Or does that interfere with our very dear principle of freedom of speech?
Posted by: Parviz | Feb 4 2009 14:53 utc | 65
Palestinians Murdering and Maiming Palestinians
The terrorist group Fatah has released a list of at least 181 Palestinians murdered or maimed by the terrorist group Hamas . “Patriotic” in this case means “devoted to the destruction of Israel.”
Posted by: Abe Bird | Feb 4 2009 14:57 utc | 66
When did 'Abe Bird' post his first message?
Only a couple of days ago, Parviz. Me, I'm just having fun with him, he's not worth more.
Posted by: Alex | Feb 4 2009 15:04 utc | 68
Quantity rather than quality seems to be what they are after.
large and larger quantities of bullshit. as if someone shoving something down your throat or yelling really hard is going to make the naked emperors fully clothed w/flowing purple robes and all.
scores, perhaps hundreds, of wells and water sources have been damaged
Tantalus, excuse me for not reviewing all the threads to see if it's already posted, but did you read about israel not allowing the french gift of a water purification system to enter gaza? it had to be turned back to france. this is one of the ways they originally dealt w/the palestinians to make them all sick and drive them off their land.
Posted by: annie | Feb 4 2009 15:09 utc | 69
Stdy the truth and don't sink in your mud.
Gazan doctor says death toll inflated .
annie, didn't you hear yet? The Hamas still at war with Israel.
Posted by: Abe Bird | Feb 4 2009 15:40 utc | 71
ReAlex Alex; This is my first time here . Don't invent history too (-:
Posted by: Abe Bird | Feb 4 2009 15:46 utc | 72
But annie (51), youre not in position to force your demand on Israel. Hamas vows to annihilate Israel, Israel doesn't want to fight Hamas at all and wish to settle the conflict peacefully. So its not even conflict. The Hamas is deadly virus and as such they are dissater to the Pallestinians too.
Posted by: Abe Bird | Feb 4 2009 15:51 utc | 73
Palestinians might have responded by using those greenhouses to grow flowers for export. They might have built factories, schools, hospitals, and hotels along their Mediterranean beaches. Had that been their choice, moderate Israelis surely would have made further concessions — for example, uprooting Israelis from the West Bank as well, and offering to negotiate a division of Jerusalem.
Instead, of course, Palestinians smashed the greenhouses and put Hamas in charge. Since then, Hamas has done nothing to spark economic development.
That's because Jews are such better businessmen, but they just don't want to teach their little sub-human death-wishing Palestinian brothers.
To steal something -- like a capital city -- and than dangle an offer to possibly negotiate a partial return forty two years later. Boy that's patronizing. Or, I guess the proper word is "Chutzpah." Oy vey ist mir!
Posted by: Malooga | Feb 4 2009 15:54 utc | 74
You know, the one really positive thing about people planted to disrupt blogs is that they make themselves and their masters even more despised than they were before, which in other words means that their actions are fundamentally self-defeating.
I think somebody should inform Israeli intelligence that these kindergarten tactics will only accelerate the day when the Israeli Nazi regime "vanishes from the pages of time". May that day come sooner rather than later.
Latter-day Israel has soiled the memory of the Holocaust victims and is doing its utmost to legitimize what Hitler did several decades ago. Israel is its own worst enemy.
I hope the troll takes this message back to his even dumber handlers.
Posted by: Parviz | Feb 4 2009 16:35 utc | 75
Parviz, when you say Nazis do you mean Amin Housseini ?
I know that the nazional heritage of the now-days Palestinians based on the Nazi Germany ProPALganda. You can read more here and then you'll know why the Falsetinian Arabs will not succeed to annihilate Israel. At the most they can turn the already Palestinian Jordan into their nazional state.
Posted by: | Feb 4 2009 18:07 utc | 76
@Parviz - Latter-day Israel has soiled the memory of the Holocaust victims and is doing its utmost to legitimize what Hitler did several decades ago.
NOTHING can legitimize what Hitler did.
Do you think @76 is the same as 'Abe Bird'? Or is he just reading from the same talking points sheet?
Posted by: Alex | Feb 4 2009 19:09 utc | 78
b (77), I choose my words very carefully. I never said anything "could legitimize what Hitler did". What I DID write was that Israel "IS DOING ITS BEST" to legitimize what Hitler did.
There's a huge difference between what you insinuated I wrote (even if you didn't think that was what I wrote) and what I actually wrote, if you can decipher my weird syntax!
Posted by: Parviz | Feb 4 2009 20:03 utc | 80
my position on banning - is clear - when a post is a scam/spam - which the state of israel's apologists actually are - then i prefer that b bans them. we have to go through enough shit in this life - such sterile propaganda as mr bird is just a pain in the ass
& i think parviz was reiterating my point that the state of israel & its actions do nothing but dishonour to jewish history & jewish memory. i think it is quite clear he was not legitimising anthing. probing - which is what we are all doing
the apologists for israel that arrive here - do not probe, nor enter any real argument, just evacute the propagandist bowels all over this blog
& yr probably right parviz, that even in this sapce it is an intimate space & it is relatively easy to be misread
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 4 2009 20:39 utc | 81
oh yes we all very much heard of the alleged nameless gazan doctor who allegedly told an italian reporter this info of the alleged low death rate.
yawn. he name was probably moish. lol. parvis, maybe you meant replicate instead of legitimize.
maybe harry emailed his handler from the foreign ministers office and told them to send in an upgraded supervisor blogger, and pronto!
truth run amok at the moon site! a bunch of crazies from alabama on the loose!
Posted by: annie | Feb 4 2009 21:11 utc | 82
I will choose my words carefully. Parviz, who as a Middle Easterner has no obligation to follow European paranoias, could have said that Israel, by its recent actions in Gaza, has done much to 'de-exceptionalise' the Holocaust. A negative issue, not the positive one of legitimising that genocide. No-one with any sense denies the Holocaust, which is well proved on any historical basis, and well proved in its illegal horror.
The question is whether that genocide was 'exceptional', in relation to any previous or following similar event. The arguments that I understand are used are a) the Jewish population was destined to be totally eliminated, b) that the number killed was much higher than before or since, also as a proportion of the population, and c) the industrial method of death at Auschwitz.
The Israeli action in Gaza corresponds to a), intention to eliminate the Palestinians. We should remember that Israel has not yet finished. Netanyahu has declared an intention to renew the attack, and sooner or later it will be carried through to a conclusion, if Obama does not say no, or some other effect of world disapproval. Not so many deaths have occurred, but it is still an illegal horror. The Israelis have simply chosen another method, starvation.
On b), Stalin killed a lot more than Hitler. My Latvian ex-wife was particularly virulent on this question. Many dead before the Second World War were attributed to the Nazis. On c), that is a particular characteristic of German organisation (sorry, b). The Brits and the Russians could have done the same, but by by a different method.
It is no secret that I don't think that the Holocaust was 'exceptional'. There have been lots of others. We should compare them. Israel, by its actions, has encouraged us to think that way.
Posted by: Alex | Feb 4 2009 22:58 utc | 83
Thank you, remembereringgiap , annie and Alex. I am not a Holocaust denier. I'm too educated for that. What I object to is what Professor Finkelstein refers to as "The Holocaust Industry", Israel's selective condemnation of Holocaust deniers to suit its purposes (such as the Wikipedia article I posted that exposed Mahmood Abbas's denial of the Holocaust in his doctoral thesis) and, finally, the Nazi-like barbarity that Israel has exhibited DESPITE intrusive global media coverage and global opprobrium. Here below is a post I received just today from a fellow countryman. Please read every word, because it's clearly written from the heart and is extremely ominous for the future of Israel in its present Apartheid form:
I have travelled to Israel, and all her neighbors; Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon, in that order. I am not a fan of Arabs who invaded Iran 1400 years ago, who invaded Iran almost 30 years ago or supported the invasion, or the ones who call Persian Gulf, Arabian Gulf. I have at least four Jewish friends and two Jewish relatives who I admire and have been friends with them for over 30 years. I hate Hitler and believe that Holocaust did happen. For some reason the first 50 years of my life I was a closet supporter of Israel but not anymore and I tell you why. Fundamentally I believe Israel should have not been recognized as a country in 1948 (they cite biblical reasons). If European Jews suffered in the hands of Germans the best punishment for Germans was to carve out some of their land and give it to the Jews. If Palestine needed to be given to Jews because 3000 years ago that was the Jewish country, then the United States needs to be given back to Indians who owned it only 250 years ago. If Israel got its legitimacy because of a United Nation's resolution lets do not forget that Israel has never recognized any other resolution other than the one that gave her its legitimacy. More recently they shot at UN complex, cars and employees and this was not their first time attacking UN, the very same organization that gave them their birth certificate. If 3000 years ago Jewish people owned Palestine, those were the dark haired Middle Eastern Jews not blonde European Zionist Jews who rule Israel today. Which one dictates the rule for owning a country? Religion or ethnicity? Do I own Mecca because I was born Moslem in Iran? These days there are talks about nuclear Iran being dangerous. How about nuclear Israel? Iran has not started any wars in the recent history that I know of, whereas Israel has not stopped the war that it started in 1948. Iran did not use the chemicals against Iraqis who repeatedly used it against Iran. Israel just recently used Phosphor bombs against the defenseless people of Gaza which is against the Geneva Convention. So Which one has the possibility of using a nuclear bomb when she really gets mad, Iran or Israel? There are grown up Moslems, grown up Jews, grown up terrorists, grown up good people and grown up bad people but children are only innocent children who do not belong to any sect. There are no Jewish Children, Moslem children, or Terrorist children. Children can not choose what they want to be. They only think about playing. When you see the so called civilized people of Israel kill 1200 Gazans and injure many more just for the 15 people they lost, from which 3 was due to friendly fire, you wonder are they really civilized? Are they any better than Hitler? What was the fault of those children that were killed or maimed? Isn't killing of civilians against the Geneva Convention? If Hamas is killing a few Israeli civilians it is because Hamas is a so called terrorist organization, but how about Israel? I think Israel has created so many frustrated angry Arabs in and out of Israel that it is just matter of time before there will be an unstoppable explosion of frustration and anger. If in 1967 the war with 3 countries took only six days for Israel to win, the latest two offensives in Lebanon and Gaza proved that the enemy is not the simple unsophisticated enemy it used to be any more and in none of them Israel was the winner. When a 12 cylinder Ferrari races with a 2 cylinder Citroen and does not win the race, you can only conclude that it has lost it. Would Israel make it to 22nd Century? I doubt it. If you extrapolate all the fights since 1967 and continue that into the future, all it takes is if all neighbors invade Israel with the help from the West Bank and Gaza at the same time. All they have to do is not to stop and keep on fighting like Hezbollah and Gaza. How long can people of Israel live under the improved rockets and still want to live in Israel? If I were Israel, I will make peace now while I am still ahead. History has shown that when the tide turns it will be too late to make concessions. Today they lost their only supporter in the Middle East, namely Turkey. Mr. Erdogan their Prime Minister received a hero's welcome in Turkey for walking out of Davos meeting where he accused the president of Israel of killing the innocent people. This is a big blow to the government of Israel to receive such a comment from its only ally in the Middle East. What do I call Israel today? How about Savage Israel, or Terrorist Israel? Sorry Israel. I was thinking highly of you. You changed that and you only have yourself to blame.
Posted by: Parviz | Feb 5 2009 5:25 utc | 84
Parviz-
Thanks for sharing such a well written letter. The parts about the children tug at my heart.
Posted by: David | Feb 5 2009 5:31 utc | 85
The comments to this entry are closed.
Thanks! Will do. :-)
Posted by: parvati_roma | Jan 27 2009 19:25 utc | 1