Isreal should immediately withdraw and allow the Varoius Palestinian factions to kill eachother. Yea, just brilliant. If Israel ever ends, then you will see some seroius Palestinian bloodshed, exclusively at
oneanothers hands.

Posted by: x | Jan 19 2009 0:06 utc | 3

I,m afraid it will take many generations of this before anything changes. Still, too many people here in the U$ no nothing of the struggles of the palistenians, or even care. So very tragic.

Posted by: ben | Jan 19 2009 1:10 utc | 5

good grief, did they shoot at kids directly?
the first picture,
link
i am sick of war, just sick of it. Sick of War Memorials, the tomb of the unknown soldier, exhibitions of tanks and shows with fighter planes that rain death, sick of barked orders, collateral damage, arrogant man and women who tell us its for our safety, our well being, sick sick sick fuckers all of them.
We should erect monuments with the names of every dead child and every dead women engraved. Would we have enough space?

Posted by: sabine | Jan 19 2009 9:07 utc | 7

All councils of war should be selected from expectant mothers…

Posted by: David | Jan 19 2009 10:55 utc | 9

@sabine
“good grief did they shoot at kids directly?”
Are you serious with this comment? Israel has been shooting directly at Palestinian kids in the occupied territories (West Bank and Gaza) since at least the first intifada in 1987. Kids are killed routinely. If you would like more source material on this please let me know.
Honestly I realize this situation is not as well-known as I assume it is….

Posted by: bea | Jan 19 2009 12:16 utc | 11

David, I have similar, even more horrific quotes from the Talmud and the Koran which created waves on this Blog some months ago.
Can there be any other conclusion other than that the Bible/Koran/Talmud are all crap?

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 19 2009 12:25 utc | 13

Parviz,
Please we get enough of this with “im not racist but” gang at abu muqawama. We all have our beliefs and our interpretation of our beliefs. There can be a whole many more conclusions than the one you draw and like David says then the “word of God” sells as well as anything. But just because the seller is evil and is able to twist a phrase or paragraph to their agenda and the buyer is too angry/undeducated/of equal bent to counter the seller, does not necessarily lead to the original belief being anything of the sort. I do not equate Bush with Christianiy, nor Israel with Judaism and I would certainly not expect anyone to equate Al Qaeda and Islam

Posted by: mo | Jan 19 2009 13:38 utc | 15

mo (15), I see what you’re getting at, but to be perfectly frank I see organized religions as mere instruments of power, nothing more, nothing less. For me (and I may be wrong) Buddhism comes closest to my idea of a religion that teaches people to think for themselves, surpassed possibly only by Zoroastrianism that had only 3 Commandments and rules: “Think good thoughts, Say good words, do good deeds”. Unfortunately, it has almost died out as a religion because Zoroastrians wre allowed to marry only other Zoros (not Zorros!), whicu was rather contradictory to their very enlightened 3 Commandments. But I love the simplicity of their basic principles.
All that crap about ‘heathens’, Heaven and Hell, the sea parting to allow Moses through, Mohammed receiving totally self-contradictory instructions from God, the Talmud’s 500 pages on capital punishment that would make even Stephen King’s hair stand on end, etc.,. don’t belong in the 21st century.
As I always say, there would have been no Inquisition without Christians, no Al Qaeda without Muslims and no Holocaust without Jews. All 3 religions encourage stupidity, ignorance and violence, so, thanks but no thanks. A plague on all their houses.

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 19 2009 15:22 utc | 17

What the Israelis don’t realize is that, unlike in Nazi Germany where the Jews meekly succumbed to their fate (often there were only 10 German camp guards covering 1000 Jews but the Jews were too scared to take them on, so they died anyway at no cost to the Nazis), the Palestinians will use whatever means at their disposal (slings, stones, crude weapons) to make sure they take some of the Israeli bastards down with them.
If the Israelis expect Palestinians to behave like the Jews did in Germany, they’re very much mistaken, which is why Israel cannot win. It’s carved in stone.

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 19 2009 16:14 utc | 19

there would have been no Inquisition without Christians, no Al Qaeda without Muslims and no Holocaust without Jews.<(I>
Now that is wrong Parviz on several counts.
You can not blame the Jews for the holocaust. The way you constructed the above (unintended I believe) does that.
Many, many Jews killed in the holocaust were a-religious and atheists. The holocaust has not to do with religion but with race, like with the Roma and Sinti.

Posted by: b | Jan 19 2009 18:17 utc | 21

bea, to finish up
maybe i should have said “they targeting toddlers”,
i didn’t even name the link – how to name that link to do it justice.
obviously i can still be shocked and horrified. in fact my words sound hollow and never strong enough for my horror.

Posted by: sabine | Jan 19 2009 18:36 utc | 23

parviz
as b says – in fact european jewry – especially east european jewry lived their religion deeply as precepts – but only rarely as a religion – circumstances made that the case, circumstances made the greater majority of east european jewry – secular & socialist
it is a rich history
& that is one of the aspects of israels brutality & terror that does dishonour to that history
but it seems there are those of a messianic bent who want another masada & seek it every opportunity

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 19 2009 18:45 utc | 25

it was a race war as was the whole war against the east, parviz. jews were identified more by their poverty than by their faith. they were indeed secular & political
it was a race war
& it was a resource war

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 19 2009 19:47 utc | 27

More…
Children found with bullets lodged in their heads

Posted by: bea | Jan 19 2009 21:45 utc | 29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb0MF-DKLKk

Posted by: mattes | Jan 20 2009 0:39 utc | 31

amazing, I just got a taste of censorship. the video mattes links to is flagged at youtube. I actually created an account so that I could see it and found to my surprise a young man narrating what has been said here wrt the Israeli assault on Gaza. no profanity other than the pictures of dead people and destroyed buildings and nothing antisemetic other than asking why Israel is the only country on the face of the earth that can get away with such crap without mention in the press.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 20 2009 1:04 utc | 33

David, I don’t think the IDF snuff videos were censored at the end.
Here is “Gaza in Winter”:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/4290469/In-pictures-Gaza-City-a-scene-of-destruction-as-the-Israeli-offensive-ends.html

Posted by: mattes | Jan 20 2009 2:03 utc | 35

Superb commentary by Uri Avneri about the film “Waltz with Bashir”. Here is an excerpt:
The subject of this outstanding film is one of the darkest chapters in our history: the Sabra and Shatila massacre. In the course of Lebanon War I, a Christian Lebanese militia carried out, under the auspices of the Israeli army, a heinous massacre of hundreds of helpless Palestinian refugees who were trapped in their camp, men, women, children and old people. The film describes this atrocity with meticulous accuracy, including our part in it.
All this was not even mentioned in the news about the award. At the festive ceremony, the director of the film did not avail himself of the opportunity to protest against the events in Gaza. It is hard to say how many women and children were killed while this ceremony was going on – but it is clear that the massacre in Gaza is much worse than that 1982 event, which moved 400 thousand Israelis to leave their homes and hold a spontaneous mass protest in Tel-Aviv. This time, only 10 thousand stood up to be counted.

Link

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 20 2009 5:21 utc | 37

Uri Avneri Commentary – Well worth reading

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 20 2009 5:26 utc | 39

Parviz, sometimes the internet wins and you just have to find the article elsewhere. You are correct, it is a superb commentary:
Uri Avnery Commentary

Posted by: Ensley | Jan 20 2009 6:03 utc | 41

A superbly eloquent and poignant commentary. Excerpt:
And please, Israel, try to restrain yourself from using that ridiculous argument, borrowed again from Bush (how low can you get?), that Hamas leaders “hide among civilians”, by living in their own homes. Apparently, in the thinking of Israelis, they should all run out into an uninhabited area somewhere (try to find one in Gaza), surround themselves with flares and write in the sand with a stick, “Here I am!”

Huffingtom Post

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 20 2009 7:48 utc | 43

thanks anna missed,
its kind of a strange feeling, one hears, one sees, on knows, but still seeks confirmation of the unspeakable.
shooting toddlers in the year 2009

Posted by: sabine | Jan 20 2009 9:05 utc | 45

poetry for the little ones killed via the angry arab
they claimed that it was morning
and again on the news, “israel only shoots at schools, if they are shot at”, and Mrs. Livni is “at peace with the actions of Israel”.

Posted by: sabine | Jan 20 2009 9:46 utc | 47

@am – spot on
Zogby How Israel’s Propaganda Machine Works

Posted by: b | Jan 20 2009 10:30 utc | 49

The truth is overtaking the Propaganda Machine. Avnery had it right. Nobody is going to forget what happened in Gaza.

Posted by: Alex | Jan 20 2009 10:48 utc | 51

I am watching the most extraordinary speech in Gaza, live on Al Jazeera, in which Ban Ki-Moon expresses “complete solidarity with the people of Gaza”, expresses ‘outrage’ at the waston killing and ‘promises’ to conduct “strong, thorough investigations” and make those people responsible “accountable for the destruction and shelling of this small place”.
He demanded “an immediate end to the occupation” and “creation of a Palestinian State”, “an immediate 2-state solution”, promising to “take this up with the new U.S. President immediately”. He expressed “condolences to the people of Gaza” for “your suffering and the destruction of your infrastructure” and promised urgent action “so you can live normally, get jobs, go to school”, etc.,. He said he was at a loss for words to describe what he has seen and admitted that this was only a ‘fraction’ of the damage done to Gaza.
Now, to many of you these may seem like empty words, but considering Kim’s loyalties and staid character this was like a “declaration of war” against both Israel and the United States. I wish he had spoken out as soon as he was appointed General Secretary, but as with the Jews rising up against Israel it’s again a question of “better late than never”.

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 20 2009 13:43 utc | 53

Discussions about peace, ending the occupation, a two state solution, etc. from the softie-lefties are often repetitive and tiresome (present company excepted.) They seem to concern symptoms or outcomes, and how these may be tempered or undone – cease-fires, peace conferences, 67 borders, tearing down the serpent wall, etc., just more of the same tepid boy-scoutism. It often reminds me of what one does with unruly kindergarteners – Time out, shaking hands, sharing the same space, offering toys! Those who see Isr. as a monster that must be stopped and somehow de-fanged I find more sympathetic. Boycotts. By all means, why not.
The heart of the story is racism. It is ethnic racism, but of a peculiar kind, as it is for a large part self-proclaimed (“I am a Jew”) and carries few or no biological, territorial, cultural, historical markers. (Some might dispute this so let’s say ‘weak’ instead.) The religious aspect is superficial – though Judaism is the State religion – most Jews are ‘secular’ and only 8% in Isr. call themselves ultra-orthodox. In fact, one might praise Israel for the fact that such wildly different attitudes to religion or more properly patriarchy and quasi-medieval tradition as well as vociferous victim status seem to co-exist peacefully in such a tiny country.
From the coked-up gay metro Tel-Aviver who works in finance … to the ultra-Orthodox whose customs even fervent Islamists consider nuts. Only El Al runs ‘religious’ flights, reserved for the orthodox. (Not sure if that still exists..) Naturally, the co-existence is one of mutual ignorance and avoidance with occasional flare-ups. (E.g. gay parades.)
Overall, this dimension seems to me to be very muted – each group identifies with its members parochially, such as settlers in their modest clothes to pious Jewish folklore and their near neighbors; academics internationally with their brethren worldwide; business people with another country, the US, etc. (This also explains that Isr. garners support because it has a little of everything for everyone…) Religion is a supra-ordinal State definition but never a goal on the ground, even in its mild community versions.
Second, it is nationalistic racism. Now, there is something to get one’s teeth into. Nation states evolved slowly, and EU colonialism was a way of garnering the means of production and profiteering while using racist stereotypes. Others – e.g. the US, Australia – killed off native populations and took over the territory, the land. Isr. necessarily has veered between the two models neither of which are politically correct or even much in vogue today … It adopts a model that is past is sell-date, as a kind of hyperbolic vestige of early European Nationalism, very narrowly defined and then transposed into another context. Gaza has no UN seat. Israel does.
Third, once discrimination kicks in, those outside the favored group can be counted on to look ugly, uneducated, primitive, criminal and violent; as a group, terrorists, menacing… The narrow definition of the State (that supports the life of its citizens, workers, etc.) is upheld by the majority, for the sake of survival, and the minority must be eliminated. Bloody extreme violence can, as we see, result.
And this, my friends, is what other countries – the US in first place – meaning leaders, politicians, in finance, and large corps – love.
Isr. is supported because it is supremely aggressive, domineering, powerful on a small scale, and goes on killing (depriving, blockading, bombing, disenfranchising, etc.) people who are simply there. Its PR machine is supreme (victim BS).. a wet dream…Its complete allegiance to whatever the PTB can dream up is hallucinating…it folds and bends…while the powerful live in defended compounds, no! in London or NY, and can get others to kill ppl on the street, nobody peeps, even if food is destroyed by bombs, that’s an achievement!
All for the sake of a Jewish homeland, a chimera, an invention that serves only a tiny class of criminals at the top. Nobody, not Bush or Obama, or the Sark (ozy), or anyone, cares about Israelis or Palestinians.
There can be no ‘peace’ while the modern creation, at the same time a complete anachronism, of a ‘country’ like Israel exists.
Not very original I know but these thoughts were swirling in my mind. ..

Posted by: Tangerine | Jan 20 2009 18:44 utc | 55

Parviz wrote: What the Israelis don’t realize is that, unlike in Nazi Germany where the Jews meekly succumbed to their fate (often there were only 10 German camp guards covering 1000 Jews but the Jews were too scared to take them on, so they died anyway at no cost to the Nazis), the Palestinians will use whatever means at their disposal (slings, stones, crude weapons) to make sure they take some of the Israeli bastards down with them.
Not quite correct. First, rests on the popular, promulgated, image of Nazi ‘genocide’, etc. but huge numbers of Jews /others did escape and protect themselves, and also resisted.. Some did meekly succumb, sure, but the numbers, etc. Well let’s not go there now, taboo topic.
It is so they threw no stones and weren’t shown on CNN. My ancestors killed – killed – when they could in any way – nobody ever talks about that –
Second, the political-economic-cultural scene has changed completely since ww2.
Potted history and school book lore and outdated comparisons…
just in the spirit of argument, Parviz..

Posted by: Tangerine | Jan 20 2009 18:59 utc | 57

parviz, do you have a place i can send the translation to, it will be rather long. to long to post here i think.

Posted by: sabine | Jan 20 2009 20:54 utc | 59

Travel advisory issued for top IDF officers

State expresses concern over international human rights groups’ intention to file war crimes charges against military personnel with The Hague, local European courts; says officers planning to travel must contact Judge Advocate General’s Office first.
IDF officers intending to travel to Europe, whether for business or pleasure, have been advised to contact the Judge Advocate General’s Office prior to leaving Israel; and some may be instructed not to leave the country.
The advisory has been issued following Israel’s concern that international arrest warrants may be issued against officers who were involved in the Israeli offensive in Gaza, on charges of war crimes.
Jerusalem has reportedly received several reports suggesting international human rights groups are in the process of gathering evidence in the form of photos and testimonials, with the intent of filing suits both with the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague and in local European courts.
Once a European court decides to hear such a case, it is within its right to issue bench warrants for the alleged criminals – in this case top politicians and military personnel – and that is a move the State might find difficult to undo.
“As far as the international arena is concerned, Israel is entering what is probably its darkest era,” a Jerusalem source told Yedioth Ahronoth. “The Palestinian and their friends will try to make Israel look like a leper, like China looked after the Tiananmen Square massacre (of 1989), or like Serbia did under (former President Slobodan) Milosevic.
“They intend of mounting a legal front against IDF officers, ministers, Knesset members and Israeli diplomats. They will go after them with arrest warrants all over the world.”

Posted by: annie | Jan 20 2009 23:52 utc | 61

@annie – , my last 2 links have not shown up, can you look for them, i am reluctant to repost.
I don’t find them. They were not “spam captured” ???

Posted by: b | Jan 21 2009 7:18 utc | 63

Terrific, Sabine, that was very selfless. I speak German so I understood the text, but my translation skills are not that hot, so I appreciate your effort. If B doesn’t post it I’ll ask you for a copy so I can relay it to my extensive private email distribution list.

Posted by: Parviz | Jan 21 2009 10:01 utc | 65

The embedded version above still works for me Parviz, but youtube now say:

This video or group may contain content that is inappropriate for some users, as flagged by YouTube’s user community.
To view this video or group, please verify you are 18 or older by signing in or signing up.

The reason for that censoring are obvious: ADL, YouTube launch partnership to fight video abuse

The Anti-Defamation League announced Sunday its recent expansion into the world of YouTube, the on-line video-sharing site.
The US-based advocacy group has officially partnered with the digital media powerhouse in an effort to combat hate speech and other forms of abuse.
As the largest Web-video hub, YouTube relies primarily on its users to hunt down and delete inappropriate content, or to ban abusive members. While the extent of the ADL’s role in that process is not yet known, the organization has already made a place for itself in YouTube’s new “Abuse and Safety Center,” where users are given advice directly from the ADL on how to confront hate speech.

ADL is part of “The Lobby”

Posted by: b | Jan 22 2009 19:55 utc | 67

parviz,
the video is still available for me.
No mentioning either of the content as B received. Just clicked play, and play it did.
oh those darn censors, regardless where there are.

Posted by: sabine | Jan 23 2009 6:41 utc | 69

Parviz:
I can still find several copies of this song on YouTube. The opening line of the song, referring to the “blinding flash of white light,” brings me back to these stories of civilians burned to the bone by white phosphorus.
At Michael Heart’s website, you can watch the video or download the MP3, and Michael asks those who download the music to make a donation to UNRWA.
Thank you for all of your insights at MOA recently. Travel well; I’ll look forward to your comments when you return. Thanks also to Sabine for the translation of “the bad, bad neighbor.”

Posted by: catlady | Jan 23 2009 17:10 utc | 71

cé fouitru israelien doiven tous allé se faire foutre

Posted by: mia | Jan 23 2009 20:19 utc | 73

the thing that strikes me the most about the film linked by Tantalus is the attitude of the people. there has been killing on a massive scale and almost total destruction everywhere you can see. yet the people there are picking up what is still whole, sorting out whole bricks from the rubble and getting ready to rebuild. those who have so little in material possessions seem to have a very strong spirit and do not appeared to be bowed by the Israeli shock and awe.
also, why was the writing on the walls in English? was that for LittleGreenFootball consumption or is it simply because the troops there are mostly from Brooklyn?
I also keep reading about the shooting of girls and children. this certainly has to be a new low in modern warfare. who can possibly condone such action? it would seem that even the most depraved would stop at that. there is something very wrong with a society when that kind of behavior is tolerated.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 23 2009 21:17 utc | 75

I thought of the Germans and the second great war while I was writing the post above but decided not to make that comparison as it seemed out of place. I do remember reading about a US bomber pilot remarking that on his way to bomb other targets in Germany, he saw Germans repairing their houses, the same houses he had bombed the day before. It was a spirit that inspired a kind of admiration in the pilot for the sheer doggedness of the Deutsche Volk.
hopefully some of the resident experts on things Israel will chime in on what the official language is there. I certainly would have guessed it was Hebrew and that is why I did not understand why the writing was in English, there was a similar episode during the attack on Lebanon where Israeli school girls were writing messages on tank shells that were to be fired off and that was in English too. The fact that those images made it into English speaking media is probably due to the fact we would have no clue of Hebrew or Arabic phrases which are probably a hundred times worse.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 23 2009 22:03 utc | 77

I had to look up Truemmerfrauen, did not know it. means something like women of the rubble or ruins.
somewhat off topic but I visited Berlin a couple years back and saw the Russian war museum where they have many photos of that city at the end of the great war. It looked a lot worse than Gaza does now. you would never guess by looking at it today though.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 23 2009 22:22 utc | 79

which raises the questions does the IDF communicates in english or hebrew?
when i was traveling in nepal about 15 years ago i met some young guys from israel, all around 22 who had just finished their stint w/the idf, one of them spoke broken english, the rest not a word. i would imagine they speak hebrew in the idf.

Posted by: annie | Jan 24 2009 19:14 utc | 81