here’s peace back atcha outraged, always good to have you around.

Posted by: annie | Feb 5 2009 13:29 utc | 104

Outraged-
I agree and disagree 🙂 Damn that crazy split personality.
Part of me wants to lash-out at all the HG’s in the world, shake them until they see the world from my perspective, but that isn’t helpful and is a simplified version of what’s got the world all screwed-up.
I live in what is a weird sort of redneck country, you’ll hear some awful things said publicly, but most of it is done with out any true animosity, just the kind of unthinking, off-the-cuff, trying to be funny crap, blue-collar budweiser swilling fools say. If you take the time to separate one of them from their herd, you can get them to talk sense and most really don’t dislike anyone else just because of race, religion, ect… It is just the damn herd mentality trapping their thinking.
So I look at a guy like HG, who to his credit has been sticking with us and maybe some of what is said here is sinking in. He may be at a time and place in his life where he is searching for answers himself, and as I know, (as probably many here do) it is hard to change your beliefs. Especially with beliefs that have become your definition of self for many years.
I had to overcome several of my beliefs before I could get to the place I am now. I imagine if I continue to live, I will probably refine and even change many of the beliefs I now hold as being true.
HG is a benefit to us. I know that his arguments are old and tired, they don’t stand up to facts and it becomes boring re-hashing the same histories over and over. But there are a couple of things we should keep in mind; the first is it is nice to know what the propagandist are up to, guys like bird and HG keep us up to date on the reasons israel uses to excuse its horrors. And for those who happen by this site and read a bit, one of our replies could be what changes how they think.
We need to become comfortable regurgitating the same information, the same facts, day after day just as the propagandist are doing. This is why they could eventually win the battle for people’s minds, their constant message always there waiting to catch an unaware mind. They say the same things over and over and over until the drone from their buzz is un-noticed, but still is there.
I started down the road to MoA at 911 sites, which led all over the place. A few sites I visited were full of the typical “white is right” shit, some of it perfumed-up trying to keep it from smelling like ignorant racist shit. And if I was a guy like HG, those people would’ve pissed me off, hell they did piss me off, and I’m not a guy like HG. There is some really stupid, ignorant shit out on the Net. And on some searches this site probably gets lumped together with some of those… Well, it might be understandable that some people don’t understand what’s happening here and take a knee-jerk response, using the words they have.
I have to admit, there are times I feel like I must be wrong being here and reading these post; I’ve been trained that these are not the sort of conversations intelligent people have. To question anything about israel is blasphemy and I’ve been trained well. Thankfully there is enough weirdo inside, I’ve been able to grow beyond these restraints and try to think for myself.
But it is by being able to have an intelligent discourse about these forbidden subjects that allows me to broaden my outlook and maybe help other do so to.
I want to thank all of you who are helping me to grow, and especially Malooga whose response earlier in this thread made me examine and re-think how I respond to people who have different views than mine.

Posted by: David | Feb 5 2009 15:01 utc | 106

good to see you more active(!) outraged
concur w/ yr & r’giap’s reading

Posted by: b real | Feb 5 2009 15:35 utc | 108

David, since you began posting here you have contributed greatly. just wanted to let you know.
Outraged, sure is good to hear from you again. I hope things are working out for you.
Malooga who has shown me more than any other in this forum and many others, thanks for reminding us all that people hold their beliefs for what they often consider very good reasons. sometimes a nudge is all that is needed to get them to re-evaluate those beliefs.
Harry, I do hope you have a speedy recovery. I actually hope you return and engage us in reasoned debate and leave the talking points you get from hasbara.com behind.
to everyone else and especially b, thanks for making this place special. there is nothing else like it. it really is as good the whiskey bar was, and often better because there is more freedom of expression.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 5 2009 20:29 utc | 110

Hmmm… This thread seems to have taken on a second life of its own. Thanks, Harry. And so a few more comments are in order to clarify my former post.
Yes, I appreciate your voice too, David. And I also miss many former posters: jj and deanander, stoy, Colman, onzaga, fauxreal, Kate Storm, SusanG, lonesomeG, Pat, RossK, among many others, come to mind. And also others who are still here, but much less: mistah charley, jonku, Conchita/Sharon, etc.
When we talk of the “Peace Process” we must acknowledge that a “process” implies two parties coming together through mediation, each getting some of what they want. But when we look at the reality of the present situation honestly, we must admit that the Israelis have gotten some of what they want (settlers, resources), while the Palestinian situation has actually deteriorated (security, poverty, etc.) since Camp David. Any disspassionate observer would admit that there has been no mediation process — no coming together — whatsoever. This is why we must follow the Palestinian lead in declaring the “Peace Process” dead: There has been neither peace nor process. It exists only as an Orwellian subterfuge, or at best, as a jobs program for unemployed “Diplomats.”
Hillel, one of the most important figures in Jewish history, when asked for a concise summary of the Jewish religion said: “What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Law; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.” We would do well as a society to remember this, and hold it close, as we are increasingly led by fear and crisis.
“Tikkun olam,” meaning healing/repairing/perfecting the world, is sort of a trendy phrase these days — and open enough in interpretation to be used by many different groups for many purposes. Still, its simplicity of vision resonates with me.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 6 2009 3:05 utc | 112

Most of you will be delighted to hear that this is my last posting…particularly b.
I mentioned a few days ago that I was going into hospital for some rather ghastly tests and the results are back. Cancer I contracted 3 years ago & was thought to be in remission, has done the dirty on me & spread suddenly from my spleen (which has been removed)area to even my pancreas.
I’m no hero and refuse to prolong my life by a few months with chemo or radiation. Really, life can sometimes be a bugger. My spleen was damaged in my LAST game of Australian Rules Football (I was 36) with a nasty kick from an opponent, half my size, with only 5 minutes of play remaining.(We wear no protective gear in Aussie Rules as is worn in gridiron. It would slow up the game.)
I’ve already arranged to drive down to the magnificent wine areas of Western Australia for 2 weeks, then fly to the magnificent wine areas of South Australia, then fly to the magnificent wine areas of Victoria. (Never spoil life by drinking a bad wine).
We will then take a 60 day cruise on the “Silver Shadow” or another Silversea ship (easily the best shipping line in the world & it’s US) where the drinks are free & the wines come from France, Australia, USA & Chile.
I might even visit Israel & join the army and fight Hamas (no children or ladies). They must accept me because I am expendable.
ONLY JOKING!
Really, I have abused my body so badly since the age of 12 when I went to gym, started boxing, played soccer, rugby & Aussie Rules, running marathons,lifting ridiculous weights etc.
Juannie, I know that you have no time for Sam Walton because of WalMart. As you know he came from Oklahoma, and although he worked very hard at school was not all that academically gifted. However,he was very street smart. I had quite a few meals with him at very expensive restaurants and I always paid the bill and the tip. He was quite a bit older & taller than I but in frustration one day I said “Sam, you have the most wonderful uneducated brain I have come across”. For a moment I thought he was going to belt me, but he finally smiled and said, “Son…you are paying for your lessons”.
Anyway, sorry for this epistle. I apologise to all I have offended and thank many of you for teaching me “the facts of life”. Naturally I will not totally change my way of thinking but I have learned to be far more tolerant & understanding.
Shalom

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 7 2009 7:04 utc | 114

Oh sure, there’s something about Harry.
Don’t forget the Updike novels, for some light reading on your travels.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 7 2009 10:18 utc | 116