Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 06, 2008

Correction

I was wrong in my prediction made on November 12:

As the first tranche of the $700 billion is nearly gone, the Treasury will tell Congress that help to Detroit through the TARP program can only be given if Congress immediately and unconditionally hands over the full second tranche. Of those $350 billion maybe $50 billion will then be handed to Detroit and on January 21 a new administration will discover that Paulson has given the rest down to the last dollar to his friends.

That was clearly wrong, especially in the second sentence, and needs to be corrected. I underestimated Congress' spinelessness and its willingness to hand over taxpayer money to Wall Street.

In the deal now in the making the taxpayer funds for Detroit will be in addition to the TARP funds. Wall Street will get the full $700 billion TARP money without the reduction I anticipated:

Seeking to end a weeks-long stalemate between the Bush administration and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, senior Congressional aides said that the money would most likely come from $25 billion in federally subsidized loans intended for developing fuel-efficient cars.

By breaking that impasse, the lawmakers could also clear the way for the Treasury secretary, Henry M. Paulson Jr., to request the remaining $350 billion of the financial industry bailout fund knowing he will not get bogged down in a fight over aiding Detroit.

Democrats are hoping Mr. Paulson will use some of that money to help individual homeowners avoid foreclosure.

Democrats are 'hoping' that Paulson will use 'some' of that money for distressed homeowners?

No way. Paulson will laugh at them while he shovels those billions over to his Wall Street friends.

Posted by b on December 6, 2008 at 14:07 UTC | Permalink

Comments

I’ve been arguing with friends about which of the bailouts make the most economic sense, the auto industry bailout or the Wall Street bailout?
They’re a bunch of average Joe’s who get too much information from TV news and they’re of course willing to accept the Wall Street bailout as needed and screw all the greedy unions and automakers.
I think I’ve helped bring them around with the argument that giving money to Detroit does several things; it would keep folks working who seem to be making decent wages (though not near the $70 plus dollars quoted), would keep American factories functioning (well at least some of these factories would stay open--the warmongers should realize how important to have industry on the Fatherland during wartime, siege heil!) and spread the money through-out the Fatherland’s economy.
Give the money to Wall Street and some goof in a room with a computer starts speculating with it or sticks it in his lock-box and none of it goes to benefit the average person or even the Fatherland. Where is the benefit of this?
We could pay folks a dollar a bucket to move water from the Atlantic to the Pacific with the $700 billion (or trillion or whatever) and do more good for the economy then giving it to speculators.
Americans want to be paid like they were in the Sixties before the nation had off-shored all our manufacturing jobs and corporations were still paying their fair-share of taxes.
From the 1950’s through the 1980’s American still had many decent paying manufacturing jobs and the country created some amazing infrastructure using that tax-base.
Not to mention fighting the Vietnam War and the Cold war too (both of which helped fuel some of the boom). We could afford to do all this then because of how strong our currency was and how much more of America’s tax burden was paid by industry.
Now with our tax burden being shifted more and more to the individual, and worse still to the individuals yet to be born, we see our infrastructure breaking down.
Folks can’t pay taxes if they aren’t working and without taxes the government can’t pay to keep the country running. How long in this economy before we start seeing the slow trickle of collapsing infrastructure turn to a torrent?
Ugg.
It is sad to think that if a big Chinese factory were able to open up in America and offer workers what the typical Chinese gets reimbursed they’d probably have a full staff. Humans want to work, they want to feel useful.
My ½ of a cent worth.
Dave

Posted by: David | Dec 6 2008 15:26 utc | 1

"Congressional leaders, upset over Mr. Paulson’s management of the bailout program, have warned him that if he wants the money, he must ask for it by the end of next week."

Some tough negotiating there...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/06/business/06auto.html?em

Posted by: dekurilater | Dec 6 2008 16:33 utc | 2

"It is sad to think that if a big Chinese factory were able to open up in America and offer workers what the typical Chinese gets reimbursed they’d probably have a full staff. Humans want to work, they want to feel useful."

What is sad about that?

Posted by: dekurilater | Dec 6 2008 16:37 utc | 3

The "Big Three" don't have a viable product; they've been turning out garbage for decades. The US economy is in the process of collapsing -- with or without three poorly-managed automobile companies getting billions from the taxpayer to stave off the inevitable for a few more months.

Posted by: James Crow | Dec 6 2008 17:15 utc | 4

Don't worry. In a year and a half everyone will be out campaigning for the Democrats again. But by then Obama will have to move even more "to the center" as he faces re-election.

Hope without knowledge
Change -- the wrong kind

Posted by: Malooga | Dec 6 2008 18:08 utc | 5

David 1) "We could pay folks a dollar a bucket to move water from the Atlantic to the Pacific with the $700 billion (or trillion or whatever) and do more good for the economy then giving it to speculators."

Concise! Clarity! Comprehension! We could also pay homemakers $1 a peanut butter and powdered milk cookie to buy, bake and freeze enough nutrition bars to get our kids through the Eon-long Gulag that Congress, Fed, Treasury and Wall Street have condemned them to as perpetual preferred indentured slaves. At least that would keep the farmers employed, the groceries open and the refrigerator lights on!

It's an amazing thing, when you sit down at lunch with one or two fellow workers, and tell the ad hominems of your own life, shivers running down your back if you've ever been homeless before, lost a child before, or been divorced in the middle of the night before, raging at the shock and awe impact of deregulated usury upon fixed wages, everyone forlornly seeking any relief that comes from shared misery.

But if you tell the same stories in a larger context, wrapped in generalities to avoid public embarrassment of personal references, a strange transmogrification occurs. No one in the congregation wants to hear it! Almost immediately the preachers and the cheerleaders, the government, ivory tower and fee men and women professional leeches start talking over the conversation, 'it's gonna turn around, we're all gonna be fine, you're putting down the greatest nation on earth, God and Jesus will show us the way, next quarter will be better, put on a happy face, our Congress is going to solve the problem, our president (Bush) is a great leader, at least we're not living under socialism,' (sic) and more derogatory, for those who insist on retelling their meth house horrors, their wife and children leaving to live with grandparents stories, 'well if you don't like it here, move to Iran.'

But where it really becomes mind-numbing is when these stories get repackaged like CDSs, and retold at public hearings, only in the form of statistical tranches, SIV generalities and prognostication TARPs, amazingly, all human elements have been stripped away! Our so-called "leaders" deal only in proformas, tax projections, and what the economic future holds for mega corporations and shopping malls!

Where before, every other word of Our Collective Misery was 'my sister' or 'the neighbors kid' or 'that poor old man down the street', our leaders use words like 'forecast', 'sensitivity', 'revenue stream', meaningless formalities 'will the august gentleman from Tennessee please', truly eye-blinking, mind-numbing circus-circus, for what I'm here to tell you has already been decided behind closed doors, by a small group of monied- and business-tied elites: SPEND MORE TAXES!

So 'the good news to report to you' and 'some challenges' is, Americans are broke. Personal savings are negative, and have been for several quarters before the news made it to main street in August that we're fundamentally over-drawn. Since then, personal credit has frozen, personal savings are in full bleed out, the economy has ground to a halt the way sap freezes in autumn, and a lot of folks are gonna fall!

The 'good news' is the tax system is still making collections, there is a thriving usury system growing stronger every day, government employment:programs are still growing by leaps and bounds as %age of an American GDP artificially fluffed by M3, DoD and tax spending in general. Yes, fellow citizens, Our Politburo is strong!

So what's the closer? How do we wrap this up into denouement and go to commercial?

Our children are increasingly mute, increasingly frankenpharmed, increasingly in debt before they even attain their majority. And there are no jobs for them when they get there. They will be living at home with us, drawing on the same savings and bankrupt SSTF so rapidly being depleted. America is scrEUed! All the king's horses, and all the king's men, can't put this Humpty Dumpty back together again!
We're gonna be paying the same high taxes as EU, but without any social programs!

What we can do is keep having bake sales for after-school programs, keep collecting canned food for our poor neighbors, support recycling building materials, household goods, furniture, appliance and shoe repair, anything to 'use it up, wear it out, make it last'. None of our cash money for clothes, cars or commodities stays in the community anyway, it's all going to international corporations bleeding us out.

The other thing we can do is beat the ever-loving sh-t out of our local government! Start a hearing-pool with your friends, attending public meetings and testifying vociferously, pre-scripted the way city council is pre-scripted, how we are mad as hell, how we're not gonna take any more gas taxes, property taxes, Spanish-American War taxes, carbon taxes, 'streamlined sales tax' or leaf collecting taxes!

We're not going to let the self-entitled and pensioned-for-life demi-politicians spend what little savings we have left, that should go to our indentured children, on more unnecessary public works and public employee programs. No more $10M parks, $100M civic buildings, $B highway expansions and state prisons, dross-gilded and massaged by overpaid consultants and under-competed over-change-ordered contractors.

30% overhead for usury, 30% overhead for administration, 30% fee-handler profit, we're getting no more than 10c on the $1 for our taxes!!! If public works and local government were charities, they'd shut them down for fraud! Then they raise a hue and cry over auto manufacturers taking private jets to hearings, when county executives take dozens of taxpayer trips, all expenses paid, around the country, around the world, to attend politico suck fests, on our nickel!

We'e literally burning our money for heat to dig the frozen graves of our children.

Posted by: Cher Iah | Dec 6 2008 18:42 utc | 6

From SocialistWorker.org:

Chicago factory occupied

December 6, 2008

WORKERS OCCUPYING the Republic Windows & Doors factory slated for closure are vowing to remain in the Chicago plant until they win the $1.5 million in severance and vacation pay owed them by management.

In a tactic rarely used in the U.S. since the labor struggles of the 1930s, the workers, members of United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America (UE) Local 1110, refused to leave the plant on December 5, its last scheduled day of operation.
(snip)

Management claims that it can't continue operations because its main creditor, Bank of America (BoA), refuses to make any more loans to the company.
(snip)

Workers were especially outraged that Bank of America, which recently received a bailout in taxpayer money, won't provide credit to Republic. "They get $25 billion from the government, and won't loan a few million to this company so workers can keep their jobs?" said Ricardo Caceres, who has worked at the plant for six years.

Posted by: Alamet | Dec 6 2008 19:12 utc | 7

nationalize the big three & immediately refocus on cranking out buses & a light rail system. mass transit - no more cars for individuals.

hang paulson & all enablers, put that money into more appropriate areas like the dismantling the industrial ag economy and funding a renewable energy infrastructure

Posted by: b real | Dec 6 2008 19:21 utc | 8

b real,

we don't even have to nationalize the Big Three: as someone else pointed out, the government just has to announce plans to replace its entire fleet of conventional vehicles with electric/hybrid autos, and they will buy from the bidder who makes the best offer, domestic or foreign.

Then just watch how quickly Detroit snaps into shape.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Dec 6 2008 19:30 utc | 9

Seeking to end a weeks-long stalemate between the Bush administration and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, senior Congressional aides said that the money would most likely come from $25 billion in federally subsidized loans intended for developing fuel-efficient cars.

Actually, tapping that fund is for quick response to immediacy of GM's cash needs and repub intransigence in getting on board... like 2 weeks w/out could sink 'em. Pelosi also said that fund will be paid pack shortly, probably right after BO innaugerated.

It was Bush who insisted that $$ not come from TARP. This allocation is a workaround.

Posted by: jdmckay | Dec 6 2008 20:57 utc | 10

Malooga @ 5:

Hope without knowledge Change -- the wrong kind

I generally don't agree w/you on much of anything... ever.

But say, that little sig, u mind if I appropriate it? g

Posted by: jdmckay | Dec 6 2008 21:03 utc | 11

In regards to #3

It sad that American workers have become downtrodden slaves to a system they have little control over. The American workforce, as voters, elected the very pigs that have sold them down the river and those same pigs laugh and say the workers deserve it. Which I suppose they do.
But I also say they haven’t been given a fair shake by any of the pundits who are quick to criticize the lazy, overpaid American worker but conveniently ignore the greedy, over-reaching companies who cause the most damage to our country’s finances.
How are voters supposed to make informed decisions when the media is only a voice piece of power?
Propaganda is fascinating to me. It is surprisingly effective in controlling people, because people want to be controlled. Or maybe they don’t want to be controlled, but years of socialization by leaders who use human’s natural need to feel part of some group against them has left us all unsure of our own individual needs.
All the propagandist need do is cause a person to question their grasp of reality—actually not hard to do, as any illusionist will show you–and the rest is simple. Then the leaders give you an explanation for what you can’t understand and you believe them. To do otherwise would be to go against the group.
There is another psychological phenomenon in humans these leaders exploit and that is how once we invest ourselves into a “thing” we begin to identify ourselves with the “thing” and anything that causes us to question the “thing” causes us to question ourselves. We know how much we all hate to be wrong. We’ll argue in favor of the dumbest crap when we are personally invested in it—I mean it’s freaking human nature and exploit it just a little and soon you’ll have a population paying you to drink water from a plastic bottle.
If the world had a fair distribution of resources, imagine what peace might be had. Or maybe not.
Growing up with two other brothers taught me ways to keep the playing field tilted in my favor when dealing with them. And these are my bothers who I love and get along with pretty well (as an adult☺) so imagine how I’d treat some guy from 1000 miles away?
We’re all suffering from prisoner’s complex and we’re identifying more with the guards than with the other inmates.

Dave


Posted by: David | Dec 6 2008 21:13 utc | 12

I generally agree w/#s 1&2 posters... congress tinkering w/bailouts and throwing away $T's w/out even beginning to address fundamental reasons why we're heading for economic oblivion. The vacuum is sufficient to allow W' to uncritically take his victory lap.

The absurdity & dysfunction of congress damn close to holigraphic representation of US in general: repub lawmakers using GM's woes to break unions once & for all, dems willing to throw $$ @ whatever w/out understanding situation... and all this while entire rest of US economy crumbling rapidly.

It's like they're swimming from an advancing tsunami.

BO's silence is deafening. I am officially worried.

Posted by: jdmckay | Dec 6 2008 21:16 utc | 13

Humans have been splinted in to too many fragments by our leaders.
Rather than help bring everyone together on issues that we can all agree on we get things like last month’s NPR segments on some really odd sexual nonsense. It’s not that I have a problem with anybody’s personal choices about what brings him or her love, I just don’t want my national news to cover it for three minutes when…you know what I mean.
There are too many issues needing a national debate, which affect everyone, to bog us down on issues affecting few.
Many of the social issues the government gets involved in are laughable to the point I cry. Gay marriage is one. Why in whatever does someone need the state to sanctify his or her love? When has a State ever been for love? If you’re worried about rights, get a good lawyer to write the details up for the world. It does stink that every human isn’t given the same chance as every other human.
It sucks to be the mosquito larva laid in a puddle left on the sidewalk after a July thundershower too.
I often laugh at the rich white guy who is ever so successful and spouting off about what a self-made man he is. Forgetting he got his job from a friend he went to Yale with after his mom got him into that school. Yeah self-made all right.
This is one of the main problems in our world—people making decisions have rarely walked in the shoes of the people affected by them.
Dave

Posted by: David | Dec 6 2008 21:44 utc | 14

david Why in whatever does someone need the state to sanctify his or her love? When has a State ever been for love

when it sanctifies love between men and women, that's when.

as long as everyone is treated the same way. i don't need the state to sanctify anyones love, but i sure as hell don't think it should be preventing anyone from getting married.


I just don’t want my national news to cover it for three minutes when…you know what I mean.

not really

There are too many issues needing a national debate, which affect everyone, to bog us down on issues affecting few.

you mean gay people? those few?

years of socialization by leaders who use human’s natural need to feel part of some group against them has left us all unsure of our own individual needs.

huh? could you elaborate? i think i have always known what my needs are. do you mean political groups or church groups or union groups?

All the propagandist need do is cause a person to question their grasp of reality—actually not hard to do, as any illusionist will show you–and the rest is simple.

isn't an objective of propaganda to thwart them questioning reality?

It is sad to think that if a big Chinese factory were able to open up in America and offer workers what the typical Chinese gets reimbursed they’d probably have a full staff.

you think? how much do the chinese factory workers make? are you saying it is sad american workers don't have the same opportunity chinese workers have? or it's sad american business doesn't have the same opportunity as chinese businesses in china?


We’re all suffering from prisoner’s complex and we’re identifying more with the guards than with the other inmates.

i'm not.

BO's silence is deafening. I am officially worried.

i am officially worried alright, but after this election i am used to BO's silence because he doesn't do 'leaking' for the most part. but i guess i am not having past recollections in terms of president elects having news conferences and pushing their weight around between the election and the inauguration, but that could just me and my recollections. he does these national addresses, like this morning. i have no recollections of these from the past.

i also find it very curious bush has been making all this policy, sort of sliding it in under the radar, maddow has been covering it on her 'lame duck watch'. sometimes it is better to keep your cards close to your chest, and since he really doesn't have any power at this point, by laying out his agenda and the way he plans to implement it, could that provide a platform for the current executive to box him in, as if this friggin 'bailout' or theft.. the timing of it sucks. as was reported yesterday, and we all know, the recession has been going on for a year. so whats the plus w/all this exposure and 'transparency' happening now? i'm worried all right, but i don't know what BO can implement at present, so unless george steps down early, what can he accomplish by laying out his plan. chances are tho, whatever the dems are doing (????) has his blessing. what a relief (snark)

another thing, as i linked on the mumbai thread, the meme of pak being a terrorist state, whatever..it does appear things are escalating. is this the hand of cheney reaching as far into the future as possible?? those in power knew this economic situation was here a long time ago, what's the MO in stacking up all this crap right in front of the new admin? it's like knowing your going to move out of your house and drilling more holes in the ceiling and clogging up all the plumbing.

it's way over my head. i can't even conceive of how they are going to fix it, or even IF it can be 'fixed', which i doubt.

Posted by: annie | Dec 6 2008 23:45 utc | 15

b,
It's not an additional $350 billion.
It's ten times that:

“In the first of two new actions . . . , the Treasury and the Fed said they would create a $200 billion program to lend money against securities backed by car loans, student loans, credit card debt and even small-business loans. The Treasury would contribute $20 billion to the so-called Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility and assume responsibility for any losses up to $20 billion. The Federal Reserve would lend the new entity as much as $180 billion. The new facility would then lend money at low rates to companies that post collateral based on securities backed by consumer debt or business loans.”[3]

It appears that the $20 billion in Treasury money will be serving as the “reserves” to create $200 billion in credit on the books of the Fed and its network of banks. Ten to one is the reserve requirement established by the Federal Reserve for private bank lending under the “fractional reserve” system. The New York Fed has now deleted its earlier discussion of this process from its website, but as it explained the money-creating process in 2004:

Link to Ellen Brown

Posted by: John C | Dec 7 2008 1:07 utc | 16

I'm glad to see this topic under discussion.... thanks, b!

Fortunately, there actually is a fair sized segment of the US public that is wide awake, well educated and aware. Many of them did not vote in the election. Others voted for one of the several "third party" candidates. ALL of the third party candidates saw this financial disaster coming. ALL of them knew that there is little difference between Republican Party and Democrat Party any more (if there ever was a real difference).

Most people in my country act as if they've been sprinkled with a kind of "fairy dust" like a kind of hypnosis. The rest of us were denied any meaningful platform (even on the internet) where we could reach a wide range of voters.

But I did not mean to just come here and make excuses. There are things I want to learn. Such as:


a. What was it like in Germany (and the rest of Europe) in the early years of the 1930s?
b. How and when did resistance movements begin?
c. Media channels are mostly blocked to us, any suggestions?

I doubt if anyone here is old enough to remember the '30s. But there must be family memories, etc. I am old enough to remember the later 1930s, I was in school (First Grade) when the U.S. entered the war.

Posted by: AuntEm | Dec 7 2008 3:09 utc | 17

I don’t know why I do this to myself. Once I've posted on a thread it’s like a freaking speedball—it keeps going and I don’t know when I’ll shut-up. I have other things I should be doing. Damn…
It must be a need to interact with folks on a deeper intellectual level than I normally do. I’d rather try to soar with eagles than let my little wisp of gray matter get any smaller.
Yes, I’ve been caught; I’m an intellectual wimp, a Mensa reject, and all around reprobate. But damn I’m a good shot☺.
Annie,
I was trying to say the major media is full of stories that titillate rather than inform. There is so much truly horrific repression going on, I just don’t feel gays are at the head of that list. Nothing personal, but as long as Americans are murdering for country, I think we each need to worry less about some of the individual repressions we suffer and more about the group lunacy we’ve engaged in.
If you’re tired of all the bullshit spread upon the face of the earth in America’s name then I ask you how fighting over a divisive subject like gay anything is going to solve the larger problem.
Maybe all the problems in the world could be solved by letting all the repressed homosexuals get married.
Hell, I’d vote to use a good chunk of the bailout money for flowers and multi-layered cakes that if I thought it would solve anything.
No, we need to get the gays to sit down with the Baptist like the lion will with the lamb and figure out that they are each freaking human. It is the one thing we all have in common, heck even men and women. Do humans need to get married? Do humans need clean water to drink? Which of those two questions is most important to answer?
As for being sure what your needs are, at least beyond the first two of Maslow's Hierarchy, are you sure?
And how are you sure you’re sure?
I’d like to know this sureness myself.
The human animal is a complicated system of systems. Lack of water, lack of sleep, too much caffeine, and too many hours in front of a TV screen—these will all affect you and sometimes so subtly you’d never know.
And these are just the chemicals messing with us. Think of your lifetime of absorbing other people’s ideas and how many of those are possibly suspect?

A smart propagandist knows the subject is going to raise questions, it's what people do. It is better to have them questioning their grasp of reality than question the “reality” created by the propagandist.
The sad part about my statement regarding Chinese factories is it was so poorly stated. I’m not sure if this is better, but I think it’s freaking sad that there are likely enough desperate people who would willingly show-up to work everyday at a polluted factory for sixty cents an hour. How does that grab ya’?
Americans were some of the best compensated employees on earth forty years ago and look how the mighty have fallen.
I wish my writing and my arguments were more eloquent, but I gotta make do with what I gots…
Dave

Posted by: David | Dec 7 2008 3:41 utc | 18

#12
"It sad that American workers have become downtrodden slaves to a system they have little control over."

That is completely different from what you said is sad before. Your post is readable but hardly specific enough to respond to.

Posted by: dekurilater | Dec 7 2008 4:05 utc | 19

david, Maybe all the problems in the world could be solved by letting all the repressed homosexuals get married. ...Do humans need to get married? Do humans need clean water to drink? Which of those two questions is most important to answer?

multi task.

There is so much truly horrific repression going on, I just don’t feel gays are at the head of that list. Nothing personal, but as long as Americans are murdering for country, I think we each need to worry less about some of the individual repressions we suffer and more about the group lunacy we’ve engaged in.

the civil rights movement took place during the vietnam era.

As for being sure what your needs are, at least beyond the first two of Maslow's Hierarchy, are you sure?
And how are you sure you’re sure?

when i'm cold, i don't need to be sure i'm sure. i'm just cold. granted there are people who don't know their needs. i'm just not one of them.

I think it’s freaking sad that there are likely enough desperate people who would willingly show-up to work everyday at a polluted factory for sixty cents an hour.

i agree this is very sad. but i am not sure we've come to that here. frankly i don't think the 3 big would be full staffed paying 60 cents an hr. in the US. not yet anyway.

It is better to have them questioning their grasp of reality than question the “reality” created by the propagandist.

so true, but it is better to not have them question anything at all which is the likely objective of mind numbing drugs and dumbing down the population. i guess what i am trying to say is i think i am still sane.

Americans were some of the best compensated employees on earth forty years ago and look how the mighty have fallen.

karma

for everything there is a season and a time for every purpose.

we have an opportunity and i think we need to use that opportunity to reassess our priorities. unfortunately we didn't choose peace when we were some of the best compensated employees on earth. we used our strengths to oppress others and we still do. and as we become less and less viable there will be those who will choose to turn to other people and other nations to steal the resources and kill the inhabitants to live in abundance. maybe we will have enough moral strength in our circumstance to choose another path. if we don't, we deserve our downfall. we cannot let our folly lead to the the extinction of our species and our globe. we are not that important. at all. sad, yes. but not as sad as the havoc we have imposed on mankind.

and while we are reassessing our circumstances, maybe its the 'little' things you mention, like treating the minorities amongst us or the weakest amongst or the poorest and sickest amongst us , as equals that will make us grow and become better people. these small victories matter.

ciao

Posted by: annie | Dec 7 2008 5:02 utc | 20

tThe civil rights movement took place during the vietnam era.

If this is the case then why are we still discussing gay marriage as an issue?
The war and the civil rights fight were great for the elite and didn’t do a hell of a lot for too many people. Both were major distractions that separated the nation and helped foster a separate and even more un-equal future for the poor.
It is hard to argue for a history that never happened, but it seems anything a political body touches it turns rotten and I think this happened to the civil rights movement. I would be curious to see South Central L.A. if the civil rights movements could have been done differently. Not the rallying of the people for what I agree is a just cause, but how it was played out in government that seems to have created the negative stink.

frankly i don't think the 3 big would be full staffed paying 60 cents an hr. in the US. not yet anyway.

I’d take that bet and I’d even give you double your money, if I were wrong I’ve got some killer financial stocks I’ll put-up.
But seriously, I think GM could replace its entire workforce with people who would work for sixty cents an hour. The unions would never stand for it, which is why they couldn’t do it. But think of the guys who pick strawberries or lettuce or any other field crop and they make squat (it’s all done as piece work)
Now think about that same guy struggling out in a field, it’s cold and maybe rainy and he would be first in line. Regular wage, same place to work and maybe things would change and he’d work his way up to a dollar an hour.
It’s the damn American dream and folks will do what ever they can to achieve it.
Most of this economic mess is a rerun of the same crap the economic elites have crapped before. It still stinks, and as civilizations have always done before we the people won’t do a thing until they come for us…by then it’s too late.
I like the words of the late great George Carlin who said, “They call it the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.”
Dave

Posted by: David | Dec 7 2008 5:53 utc | 21

"when i'm cold, i don't need to be sure i'm sure. i'm just cold. granted there are people who don't know their needs. i'm just not one of them."
annie, I know a lot of people who think like you. Many are now dead, yes they knew better than to take expert medical advice. They KNEW what they needed. Heck even the best medical advice is still in the dark ages compared to some technologies today. But you KNOW what you need. No doubts. How amazing. This is just one example in the medical field. I could list dozens of other possibilities in different areas that could improve someone's life. I am sure many slaves of old said "I don't NEED freedom. " Indeed, they did not. And you don't NEED to be wiser either. Just a ring of garlic around your neck and you will always be happy. That is all you need.
Yet, ironically, you speak of "we" just as assuredly. Who is "we"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

Posted by: Rick | Dec 7 2008 5:59 utc | 22

The unions would never stand for it, which is why they couldn’t do it.

helllloo. we also have a minimum wage in this country.

Regular wage, same place to work and maybe things would change and he’d work his way up to a dollar an hour.

wow, this is sounding better all the time/snark. something tells me there are some free traders who like your kinda thinking.

Both were major distractions that separated the nation and helped foster a separate and even more un-equal future for the poor.

hmm, so you think the civil rights era was a major distraction?

something tells me we are on different wave lenghts.

syanara, or however you spell it.

Posted by: annie | Dec 7 2008 6:14 utc | 23

@jdmckay #11:

Feel free to use anything I wrote. That's the point.

PS: I could be wrong, but I believe you are rather new here. You can google back two or three years or more and you'll probably agree with more of what I wrote. I am purposely trying to challenge a number of the long-time denizens of this watering hole to think through the implications of their actions in a holistic manner, and to bring those actions more in line with their rhetoric. Hopefully, I will have a chance to develop this line further before I am unable to post again.

@ralphieboy:

Broaden your horizons. Don't nationalize and institutionalize a twenty year/bailout bonus reward cycle. Don't nationalize and you lose the ability to deeply reform our national transportation system. Don't nationalize and wages and benefits will continue to shrink in the global race to the bottom. Don't nationalize and the need for profit will create more "externalities" like Love Canal or the area surrounding Altgeld Gardens where Obama was a faith-based community organizer:

It is one of the densest concentrations of potentially hazardous pollution sources in North America. Many of the landfills that surround them are unregulated, and some of those are still being used. Since most of these landfills as well as many industrial plants are located along the waterways surrounding the area, of the 18 miles of rivers and lakes surrounding Altgeld Gardens, 11 miles of them are unfit for human consumption and recreation, though many residents still fish in them citing that “something’s going to kill them anyway.”

I could go on with reasons forever, but some of us still believe that so-called "free enterprise" will regulate itself into sustainablity and justice. It's a religion, and its not polite to knock others religions.

Posted by: Malooga | Dec 7 2008 7:03 utc | 24

Malooga @ 24:

Feel free to use anything I wrote. That's the point.

Thanks.

PS: I could be wrong, but I believe you are rather new here.

Nope... been reading since early barfly days. A lurker mostly though, until +/- 1 yr ago.

This place has changed a lot since then IMO... I did my best to acknowledge b for this several days ago: eg. stuff he digs up and scrutinizes, I think for me anyway, makes MofA more interesting & compelling food for thought than were the Billmon discussions... good as they were.

Posted by: jdmckay | Dec 7 2008 16:20 utc | 25

"but I think it’s freaking sad that there are likely enough desperate people who would willingly show-up to work everyday at a polluted factory for sixty cents an hour."

What's sad is they don't have the choice (leave out the polluted part). In fact you must think it deliriously joyful that this can't possibly happen in this country beyond a little under the table stuff, and instead they get nothing.

Posted by: dekurilater | Dec 7 2008 17:19 utc | 26

oh you betcha! factory work at 60 cents an hour, hell yeah. how much does a migrant worker get for picking strawberries or whatever else needs picking? the notion of such cheap labor is enough to give a capitalist a massive woody.

when I hear other underpaid workers complain about the better wages union workers get I know that the message from our betters has been firmly implanted in our noggins. we quite willingly go against our own best interests because the master has told us what is right and what is not right. Just like the most likely innocent references to warlords in another thread, these thoughts are repeated without reflection...it was said on Limbaugh and CNBC and Faux and CNN and never challenged. Everyone says it without actually evaluating also because it is really quite complex and none of feel as if we are experts in the field. the talking heads all have important sounding titles and if they are on teevee they must know what they are talking about....right?

I was trying to explain to a rightwing type I know at dinner last night that either you are a shepherd or a sheep. I know very well that I am a sheep but he somehow can't accept the fact that he is too, even though he knows he is not a shepherd.

Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 7 2008 17:37 utc | 27

Kurgman: U.S. auto-industry will probably fail

"The simple mechanics of producing a rescue for the world economy are very hard. The pace at which things are getting worse is so great that it's difficult to see how rescue measures can come," the economics professor at Princeton University and columnist for The New York Times told a news conference.

"Even with the best of understanding it can't come fast enough to prevent a great deal of damage... I'm very worried what next year will look like."
...
Krugman also said he doubted the U.S. auto sector would survive in the long run but that it was worth supporting it in the short term.

The struggling Detroit-based car giants -- General Motors , Ford and Chrysler -- were victims of long-term trends as well as by the current financial crisis, he said.
...
"In the end these companies will probably disappear."

Posted by: b | Dec 7 2008 18:04 utc | 28

And you don't NEED to be wiser either. Just a ring of garlic around your neck and you will always be happy. That is all you need.

perhaps you understood my meaning as saying i didn't need anything, or i know how to get whatever i want. naturally i would love to be wiser. to speak very basically , let's review primary needs. a little baby cries when it has needs yet it doesn't understand those needs, it just understands it is unhappy. but by the time that child reaches a certain age it can identify

i am cold

i am hungry

i have a stomach ache

what i mean is that if i am hungry, i know i need food (i don't have to even ask myself are you sure you’re sure?, and if i am cold i know i need warmth. one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to understand they want health care when they are sick. the idea people don't know what their needs are, well i am not dismissing it nor am i denying it. for myself however i try to distinguish between what i desire and what my real needs are. i can completely understand and sympathize w/other circumstances and of course thoughts such as momolycus OT #13 completely resonate w/me. i also have a distinct comprehension of needs i have yet been able to quench. in the context of this thread, the economy, and peoples needs, this is what i speak.

people know they need money. a mother knows she needs to feed her crying baby, a poor person who is hurting and ill ususally knows they can't afford a doctor. this is the context in which i speak. for me personally, i know my needs. i also try to limit them, reduce to what is important. by no means did i say or mean to imply that i can acquire or even have the ability or knowledge to acquire everything to satisfy all my needs. and if this was your interpretation i am sorry, it must seem very arrogant of me. it still may seem extremely arrogant for me to say i know what my needs are. if one wants to split hairs of course one could interpret this to mean if i am sick i know exactly what kind of medicine i need. that was not my meaning.

i think a healthy mind has a firm grasp of one's needs, at least in the basic sense of common needs we can all relate to. an aberation of this would be for example an anorexic who has a confliction wrt comprehending their disease prevents them from comprehending if they don't fulfill the need of hunger they will die, or something (i am not an expert). so my point is, if you ask a good portion of the population, what are your needs today? i think they could answer you.


Yet, ironically, you speak of "we" just as assuredly. Who is "we"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

rick, my references to 'we' in the 2 previous posts were directed towards a comment about americans, a generality. so when i said we have an opportunity and i think we need to use that opportunity to reassess our priorities. unfortunately we didn't choose peace when we were some of the best compensated employees on earth.

no i don't have any mouse in my pocket, this is merely my opinion. and when i say 'we' didn't choose peace, i mean as a nation for i know very well many of us individually did. when i say 'we' have a minimum wage i think you can fairly guess i'm not referring to a mouse in my pocket.

for all of you out there who don't know what your needs are, by all means put it out there, maybe we can put our heads together and figure them out. but for the most part i think 'we' are trying to figure out the solutions to meet needs that have already been identified, like b's post referencing the homeless. well, they need a roof over their head and they likely damn well know it.

Posted by: annie | Dec 7 2008 18:52 utc | 29

monolycus, sorry for spelling your name wrong

Posted by: annie | Dec 7 2008 18:56 utc | 30

"i think a healthy mind has a firm grasp of one's needs, at least in the basic sense of common needs…"

I appreciate your calm reply to my harsh post. However, I still think you are placing too much certainty as to “we know our needs.” It has taken thousands of years of culture and learning and "we", myself included, still may not know our needs. A firm grasp of one's needs takes much learning and unfortunately, with the primitive senses and instincts that humans are born with, human beings will probably always need to be assisted by a positive culture in knowing their basic needs. And knowing anything beyond the basics, or any attempt to positively fulfill these basic needs, probably requires the tools of good education and technology.

b's example of homeless people obtaining the use of foreclosed homes is a good example. Of course food/shelter/clothing is needed by all people, but to think that giving the homeless a house is "solving their need", even for a shelter from the weather is simplistic. It is a rough world out there. One still needs to continue living, and that implies so much more than just having shelter. Security is more than just a house to live in. Protection from predators is needed in both the macro and micro world. And even our health is more than just physical in nature but also spiritual. (I'm not necessarily talking religion here, but mental/culture/emotional needs are basic.) Thirty years ago, many 'healthy' minds had no idea how AIDS was spread, and death and suffering was the result. Their basic wants/needs of sexuality and intimacy served them badly. More to the point, if “we”, as a nation, gave every homeless person a home, would America/Americans instantly be that much better? Yes, for sure, in the short term, the very short term. But if one is only looking at very short term, perhaps there are better ways to initially help the homeless. My guess is many need more than just a house to live in.

Another of b’s threads today discusses Obama’s plan to get “we” out of this mess. Again, I see only initiatives that will help mainly in the short term. Of course, I don’t have the details of what Obama is proposing yet so I am writing this prematurely, but complete phase changes are needed, not upgrades, in our transportation, energy, communication, health, financial, educational and political/government systems. Of course for safety reasons, bridges and roads have to be repaired for the short term - BUT HELL, HAVEN’T AMERICANS HAD ENOUGH OF SHORT TERM SOLUTIONS? As others have noted here, cars and roads are not the ideal solutions for the future. Each one of the aforementioned categories needs almost complete change, not upgrades. Concerning communication spending, I agree that broadband is needed for every one. I have fought for an expansion of broadband in our rural area for many years now. I even started a non-profit corporation for this purpose and got hundreds of thousands in state grant money for the project. But as the project progressed, I found out quickly that those in government would not upset the corporate apple cart. It was really akin to those in power merely throwing a dog a bone. And I worry if Obama’s broadband details are anything like his healthcare plans, things may get worse not better, for the long run. In my opinion, America ‘NEEDS’ optical fiber to the home as a public utility, just like sewer and water. Today’s citizens need free Internet access and need it not to be monitored by big brother for content/user. And the emphasis on doing it on the cheap by wireless bothers me. At this point, I am afraid many of us may develop cancer with cell phone usage growing, and young adults literally growing them out of their ears. Wireless broadband for everyone worries me for this reason. Perhaps with technology, radiated power levels can be minimized to satisfy health concerns. This brings me to education, the most important thing of all. Here I believe our government could and should provide free education for anyone. Yet again, merely throwing money at our educational system won’t fix the fundamental problems. Although I call for large social programs, I do not consider myself a socialist. Far from it, I believe in the independence of the individual and in the basic principles of the free enterprise system. People should be allowed to take personal risks for their betterment and be rewarded. At this moment, the CEO’s of large corporations have little or no personal risk, yet reap great rewards for what I do not know. That is not free enterprise. People are no longer rewarded fairly for their labor or ingenuity. What the American people experience now is Corporatism and economic slavery. From my previous posts, those here know that I believe government should provide public utilities such as sewer and water, along with the backbones for education, health, transportation, and communication systems.

Annie, I know you possess a super bright mind, but sometimes, and maybe not in your case/situation, such a good mind can be a hindrance, not a blessing. In general (and again, I'm not talking necessarily about you) but I am disappointed by elitist or closed-minded attitudes. I find such attitudes with those of any political or religious persuasion. And people who are especially bright have the ability/luxury to rest on their early basic assumptions (which are usually pretty good and probably have served them fairly well). However, such thinking leads to laziness when considering new subjects or re-examining old positions. Perhaps Waldo’s closed mind about Obama is more to the point here. I haven't been keeping up with all the posts here at MOA, put David seemed like a new poster and I welcomed his thoughts. Sure I could have criticized his post, but it was better than many of my posts. In reading your response to David, you reminded me of this elitism for some reason. You seemed so quick to admonish him. Why? Part of the reason for my post response to you was that I have a habit of rooting for the new guy or gal who may get scared off (or often an underdog) and came to David’s defense. There is always time to criticize.

Posted by: Rick | Dec 8 2008 2:08 utc | 31

Rick,

Thanks for looking out for a newbie☺, I’ll admit what I originally felt from annie’s reply was like getting a C minus on a test, maybe even a D plus. But after I took some time to think about it, I understood what she (? One shouldn’t assume anything) was trying to make me understand.
Her response to me was what I expected from my poorly presented argument (D minus?). I re-read what I wrote and it made me cringe. Not the content, but the style.
Part of why I decided to post on this site is that I need to hone my writing skills (more than I’d like to admit) and this seems like a place where the dumb don’t last long. I thought it might be a good challenge to see if I could start forming arguments supporting my ideas, or even simply writing my thoughts clearly enough for others to understand.
Having people challenge me is much better than finding some area where everyone agrees all the time. The world needs some messy vitality. An unchallenged truth is no better than a lie somebody important said. I’d agree.


The world today needs people willing to argue ideas without the need to resort to name-calling or weapons when their worldview is challenged.

The dreamer in me wishes there were some workingman’s holiday where every regular human could gather, drink beers, play horseshoes and mingle, forgetting the damn labels we’ve been fooled into using. And for those who would think otherwise, I’d be happy to do all the other cultural equivalents to drinking beers and horseshoes too.

That could even be the purpose of the holiday, ya had to try everything before you could go back to work. Damn, think how much more cultural diversity would mean if it were a month of vacationing and meeting the whole world. Then the aliens would come down and we’d all live in peace and harmony, The End.

I’m sorry if my sarcasm leaked off the computer and onto your desk. But from my experience, you hate people you know differently from those you don’t. Think of all the cultural exchanges between the Soviet Block and the US at the end of the cold war. It was hard to think of those Russians as devils when you met one. They do write kooky and I’ll note part of the problem has been the commies never spoke enough English. In fact that’s the biggest problem with the world, is there aren’t enough foreigners who speak English, imagine how much easier it would be to tell them we’re gonna shoot ‘um and take all their stuff ‘cause god told us to, if they understood what we were saying.

I guess at this point, when they see the ol’ Jolly Stars and Bones waving, most of the smart ones are reaching for a large bottle of water-based lubricant because they know what to expect. Televisions have been good for that.

I’m a very confused person. I believe in freedoms and free markets but I think corporations need to realize, like politicians they exist at the will of the people. These people are not just the people alive today, but also all the people who will ever be alive. Forever.

I wish the world has more Gnostics and less…where does one start?

Dave

Posted by: David | Dec 8 2008 3:40 utc | 32

Each one of the aforementioned categories needs almost complete change, not upgrades.

Concerning communication spending, I agree that broadband is needed for every one...America ‘NEEDS’ optical fiber to the home as a public utility, just like sewer and water. Today’s citizens need free Internet access and need it not to be monitored by big brother for content/user.

these are some examples of you 'knowing' your needs, or expression what YOU think the needs of the country are. i am going to respond to most of your post tomorrow (long day) but i want to take this opportunity to make a distinction you demonstrated between SOLUTIONS, and needs. huge difference. huge. i (and i would assume we) are in a constant search for solutions and for the most part this is what humans debate and differ on. but my point primarily was addressing my personal experience regarding needs, and i still think i know (for the most part) what they are.

You seemed so quick to admonish him. Why?

actually i was asking him to clarify because his ideas did not resonate w/my experience.. if you have an issue w/my approach, please copy paste. the example you used from your #22 post imho do not admonish him. the other topic wrt the civil rights movement i dealt w/differently. his idea ("years of socialization by leaders who use human’s natural need to feel part of some group against them has left us all unsure of our own individual needs.") sweeps a wide swath. i have no desire to admonish him for it, but it begs an explanation...and i wanted it. i also am intrigued by the idea of socialization by leaders. i guess the words socialization wrt western leaders kind of tweecks my reality unless one is referencing socialism for the rich. the idea that 'us', the people, are disengaged, unaware, or unsure of our needs just doesn't jive w/my reality. so that is why i spoke from my own personal experience, and my understanding of a basic function of our species.

A firm grasp of one's needs takes much learning and unfortunately, with the primitive senses and instincts that humans are born with, human beings will probably always need to be assisted by a positive culture in knowing their basic needs.

i have a clear recollection of watching a wild mother cat that lived on a farm where i once resided teach her young how to hunt and catch mice under our house. i categorize this as 'solution'. of course the kittens didn't understand 'need' because they had always been provided for but by the time they were required to fend for themselves they had the skills. we need skills and solutions. a need is not something we have to learn, it is something we need how to learn to satisfy.

Posted by: annie | Dec 8 2008 4:11 utc | 33

david, we were crossposting..

Posted by: annie | Dec 8 2008 4:13 utc | 34

Socialize-2 [ trans. ] make (someone) behave in a way that is acceptable to their society : newcomers are socialized into orthodox ways | [as adj. ] ( socializing) a socializing effect.

Annie, this is the what I meant regarding the actions of our leader. They themselves are socialized at the private think tanks run buy wealth and they spread the group-think from those places to us.

Dave

Posted by: David | Dec 8 2008 4:43 utc | 35

Annie,

Years ago people in the US developed gout for lack of iodine in their food. They experienced no need (did not experience hunger or want.) But they NEEDED iodine. Interesting, there was very little gout in nations like Japan that ate seafood or “kelp” (seaweed). Kelp is high in iodine. Technology and education makes the difference in our world. In this case, Iodine is placed in table salt as a solution to that need. “When it rains, it pours.” Sound familiar? I think I understand the difference between a need and a solution. I just don't understand how you know your needs so well.

Posted by: Rick | Dec 8 2008 4:44 utc | 36

Above I meant goiter, not gout.

Posted by: RIck | Dec 8 2008 4:57 utc | 37

i think we're talking semantics (where's hamburger??)

Years ago people in the US developed gout for lack of iodine in their food. They experienced no need

Signs and symptoms

Gout is characterized by excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling, redness, warmth, and stiffness in the affected joint.

likely, anyone w/gout knew they were in pain and knew they needed relief. in this regard i would have to completely disagree 'They experienced no need'.

a person w/excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling, redness, warmth, and stiffness in the affected joint knows they have a need. if i were experiencing this, i wouldn't need anyone to tell me i had a need. this is what i mean by 'i know i have a need' or 'i know what my needs are'.

maybe instead of has left us all unsure of our own individual needs it could be amended to "has left us all unsure of what solutions to trust", or 'lacking in the ability to find solutions.'

iodine is the cure. but it is not the need.

1. A condition or situation in which something is required or wanted.

the condition, the situation creates the awareness of need. my point is people know their needs. but i agree they may be confused about the way to get relief.


Posted by: annie | Dec 8 2008 5:35 utc | 38

I just don't understand how you know your needs so well.

i have very little patience. do you know the story of the princess and the pea? i am that princess. if something doesn't feel right, i feel it right away. you know the term 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'? i am squeaky. any disharmony creates a need in me to resolve it.

i have a theory about people. some of us just take longer to act on discomfort, i don't. if something doesn't feel right i express it and focus on resolving it because the need impacts my reality.
i'm just one of those people who have a very low tolerance for stress, pain or bullshit. therefor i tend to sense right away when something feels wrong or offputting. when i don't feel good it is usually because something is wrong because i believe the natural state is miraculous. so when i feel bad or even off i know it. many women are like that!

i don't know all the solutions but i have a basic checklist. for example, if everyone around me looks like shit, it may be my outlook. for the most part i trust my instincts. if it smells like shit, the need is to eradicate the experience of smelly shit. then i go about isolating the causes.

i hit roadblocks. like palestine. lots of roadblocks. lots of problems i can't solve. but damnit.. i fucking know what aches. i know frustration, i know agony, i know not sleeping over genocide (by any other name). granted i have my immediate needs solved(at present) and i know i am an extremely lucky person (possibly, probably as a result on my ability to identify/relieve those immediate needs), but once a person gratifies the immediate there creates an opening to then deal w/the greater need beyond the personal. whether it be the tribe or the country or the global.

i know my personal needs.

i know what ails my country.

i know what ails my globe.

i have certainty wrt what kind of peace and comfort we (humanity) seek.

knowing my/our needs is not my issue. identifying goals and ways to achieve them is always a challenge.

Posted by: annie | Dec 8 2008 6:14 utc | 39

Annie,
Maybe typepad held my correction of 11:57pm but your post was on 12:35am
Goiter, not gout.

Actually the disease isn't the point. I don't get your reasoning. This has nothing to do with semantics either..
Give me a break -People know they need something - after they already experienced the disease!!!!! If these people knew they needed iodine, and took trace amounts of potassium iodide, sodium iodide or iodate, they would have never gotten the disease. Morton Chemical Co. puts iodine in their salt for exactly people like you. That is, people who don't know what they need or why they need it! But you will know you have the need after you get the disease – what a joke. Iodine's value is not as a cure!!!!!!! Have you heard of preventative medicine?

Lack of this element causes mental retardation also. hmmm...maybe the disease is the point...Hey, in that case, you may really want to try wearing garlic around your neck. That will at least tell others you have a need for something, but you just don't know what. Someone else can figure it out. You have proved my point. .Like you say, give em enough rope...


From wikipedia:
Worldwide, iodine deficiency affects two billion people and is the leading preventable cause of mental retardation[2] According to public health experts, iodisation of salt may be the world's simplest and most cost-effective measure available to improve health, costing 5 cents per person per year.[2]

Posted by: Rick | Dec 8 2008 6:45 utc | 40


whether we like it or not, we are probably heading towards a post-empire informal-economy. Hence the consideration for an approach that supports the NEEDS most critically served by an informal/internal economy, Next-hence a new currency, code-named the "annie".

every paycheck would comprise a portion of "dollars" & "annies", The annie is only redeemable for food & sustainable-energy products. The annie is also date-stamped for 90 days after which it converts to a reduced dollar value thats market & tax driven. Also, current/expired "annies" would be directly invest-able into "future-value" food & sustainable-energy efforts such as local farms & food-processing as well as sustainable energy providers.

a small portion of the Obama public-works package would be deployed to jump-start the "annie".

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Dec 8 2008 7:47 utc | 41

The $700 billion 'Tarp' fund amount is neglible, merely propoganda. The actual amount the US govt & Fed Reserve have gifted to the banksters is much closer to $8 trillion, as widely reported by WSJ and Bloomberg...

Posted by: Al | Dec 8 2008 23:45 utc | 42

Which just goes to show how pointless and manufactured this entire 'debate' (read: public, theatrical spectacle) is, about whether to give a few car companies a mere $20 billion. Who cares? Nobody. People in power are just pretending to care to distract from the bank heist carried out by the corrupt financiers who own everyone. Intelligence is not required to figure this out: it's obvious.

Posted by: Al | Dec 8 2008 23:51 utc | 43

@43 Al:

Excellent point -- very true.

We must learn to ignore engineered distractions if we want to provide any resistance to the enormous pre-planned undemocratic social changes being foisted upon the US and the world. Obama's election was a vast psy-ops distraction to the largest and quickest transfer of wealth upwards in world history, a change which Obama will of course not undo in any way, despite very public minor psy-op ameliorating efforts. Never before had a mere State Senator been chosen to speak on a National stage like the Democratic Convention, and Obama certainly did not rise unprecedentedly from State Senator to President in four years based upon his almost non-existent achievements as a Senator.

Mentiuntur Celerius Quam Possumus Confutare

They lie faster than we can confute them

Posted by: Malooga | Dec 9 2008 1:47 utc | 44

In other words, despite even our best efforts here to suss out the truth of events and educate others, WE ARE FUCKED.

Posted by: Malooga | Dec 9 2008 1:49 utc | 45

@44,
Obama first came to the attention of the world in 2004 when his opponent for Senator from Illinois quit his Republican nomination due to matters that came to light from a previous divorce, By which point Obama became a lock-in to win. This & his inspiring oratory earned him the opportunity to speak at the convention.A little unusual but quite explainable,

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Dec 9 2008 6:00 utc | 46

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