If there is one thing I can count on from Moon Over Alabama...is that no matter how heinous the crime apologists for Pakistan's ISI can crow happily here.

Without IronClad proof [film, DNA, recordings are not sufficient], no terrorist action against India must ever be blamed on ISI operatives.

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 20:43 utc | 1

The ISI is a band of violent criminals. But hey, there is lots of company in that regard round those parts; there's the Tigers, the Hindu nationalists, various Maoist groups, half a dozen Kashmiri separatist groups, ect. Let's at least wait and see if the commandos were circumcised before we start bombing Islamabad, OK?

Posted by: Li | Nov 28 2008 21:11 utc | 2

I haven't seen the beep. But Israeli commandos are somewhat likely.

The Israeli ambassy in India denied this:

The Israeli embassy, which has said there were 10-12 Israeli citizens among those trapped or held in Bombay, denied any Israeli forces were involved in the assault.

But I am somewhat suspicious about that because I read an Indian press item earlier that said to abseil [how did that German verb get into English?] from a helicopter was "a first" with the implication that Indian forces were not known/had not shown to have that ability.

Anyway: Why did it take 48 hours into the attack to see counter-'action' around that house of the Chabad Lubavitch?

The 'western' media seem to now call it a 'Jewish center'. But Chabad Lubavitch, is something that is certainly not mainstream Jewish. The place was a center of a Hasidic ultra-orthodox sect, who's last leader was quite a Zionist.

Would the media also call a hardline Wahhabi indoctrination camp a civilized 'Muslim center'? Would that make it such?

Posted by: b | Nov 28 2008 21:14 utc | 3

@S Brennan - If there is one thing I can count on from Moon Over Alabama...is that no matter how heinous the crime apologists for Pakistan's ISI can crow happily here.

Just yesterday I wrote:

There was a bit of a sunshine period recently with the Pakistani president Zardari making nice with India. He promised no-first-use of nukes and cricket tournament.

At the same time the political wing of the Pakistani secret service ISI has been abandoned or maybe not.

A lot of hawks in Pakistan would probably like to change Zardari's policies towards India.

B.Raman, former head of the counter-terrorism division of Indias Research & Analysis Wing (RAW)(external intelligence agency) thinks Indian Mujahideen were the culprits.

He is usually a hawk but here he does not blame Pakistan at all?!

I first note that ISI might have been the force behind this, and later link to a Indian hawk who somewhat doubts that.

Now that is ISI crime apology by MoA. No, ISI might have had a hand in this. We do not know. It is predictable, in the current Indian election process, that a lot of people point to Pakistan and ISI even without one shred of evidence.

It might (I used the words 'conspiracy theory' in my last post) have been some Indian right-wing false flag operation. It might have been some sole Indian separation movement who did this. It might have been an officially sanctioned ISI operation (unlikely). It might have been an unsanctioned unofficial ISI operation (possible).

If you have facts to support your 'ISI must have been this' theory, lay them out before castigating others.

Posted by: b | Nov 28 2008 21:29 utc | 4

As b says, can we have a confirmation that Israeli commandos were involved in the retaking of the Jewish centre? My impression was that it was Indian commandos, perhaps under pressure from Israel.

Posted by: Alex | Nov 28 2008 21:52 utc | 5

@b RE: 'abseil' - the word is frequently used in place of the English 'rappel' by English-speaking mountaineers who wish to appear more continental. As far as Indian forces 'not being known to have that ability,' that's extremely unlikely. It's probably SOP for most or all special forces squads worldwide, and even city police and fire squads would likely be trained in general rope handling and various mountaineering skills.

Thanks much for keeping on this story. This (at least for me) is one of the creepiest incidents to occur recently.

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Nov 28 2008 22:05 utc | 6

Debs is over-doing it with regard to the English. She should say British. The BBC is certainly one of the MSM, and regurgitates a lot of propaganda, but it is not worse than the others. You have to decide yourself whether what they say is true or not.

Posted by: Alex | Nov 28 2008 22:10 utc | 7

Wayne Madsen agrees with Juannie's comment that the randomness of the violence has the feel of gang-type revenge/intimidation/message-sending. Madsen thinks Dawood Ibrahim, former CIA asset and Indian crime boss, now exiled to Pakistan but apparently the subject of US/Pakistani/Indian negotions to be extradited back to India, is sending a message, through his Indian toughs, not to mess with him.

As potential movie-plot, it's one of the better ones here.

Posted by: seneca | Nov 28 2008 22:47 utc | 8

Congressional Statements
State Dept. report on Pakistani link to terrorist groups demands increased action and vigilance

Pallone Press Release
May 3, 2000

Rep. Frank Pallone, Jr., D-NJ, said today that he welcomed the fact that a clear link between Pakistan and official support for terrorism has been established in the U.S. State Department's annual report on terrorism worldwide. But Pallone stressed that the Administration must be prepared to follow through with the threat of declaring Islamabad a state sponsor of terrorism.

Pallone plans to cite the findings about Pakistani involvement in terrorist activities contained in the State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism, 1999 Report, in a speech to the House of Representatives this week.

"One of the most dramatic findings of the report is that Pakistan, traditionally an ally of the United States, is guilty of providing safe haven and support to international terrorist groups," Pallone said.

"Unfortunately, the State Department stopped short of adding Pakistan to the list of seven nations that are described as state sponsors of terrorism."

"At the beginning of this year, I introduced legislation calling on the State Department to declare Pakistan a terrorist state. I believe that the information made public this week gives added urgency to that effort.

"We can only hope that reason will prevail in Islamabad, and that the Pakistani Government will see that the result of its present course will be increased isolation from the world community. If not, then we must be prepared to follow through and declare Pakistan a state sponsor terrorism, with all of the stigma and isolation that goes with such a declaration."

Pallone drew particular attention to a warning made this week by Ambassador Michael Sheehan, the State Department's Coordinator for Counter-terrorism, that "for state sponsorship or the designation of foreign terrorist organizations, you can do it any time of the year."

The Congressman also cited two of the key provisions of U.S. counter-terrorism policy, to isolate and apply pressure on states that sponsor terrorism to force them to change their behavior, and to bolster the counter-terrorism capabilities of those countries that work with the U.S. and require assistance.

"President Clinton, during his recent trip to South Asia, tried to appeal to the Pakistani military junta to cease support for terrorist organizations and activities," Pallone said. "The pressure on Pakistan must be maintained and strengthened. Pakistani leaders should be reminded that the threat that their country could be designated as a terrorist state is a real one that could be invoked at any time.

"India has been the prime victim of terrorism emanating from or supported by Pakistan. Thus, in keeping with the State Department's stated policy, we should strive to work much more closely with India, a democracy, on counter-terrorism efforts."

Pallone cited in particular the section of the State Department's report dealing with South Asia, which states that, "In 1999, the locus of terrorism directed against the United States continued to shift from the Middle East to South Asia." The report goes on to cite the Taliban, which controls significant areas of Afghanistan, for providing safe haven for international terrorists, particularly Usama Bin Ladin and his network. As the report points out, "Pakistan is one of only three countries that maintains formal diplomatic relations with -- and one of several that supported -- Afghanistan's Taliban."

The report goes on to state: "The United States made repeated requests to Islamabad to end support for elements harboring and training terrorists in Afghanistan and urged the Government of Pakistan to close certain Pakistani religious schools that serve as conduits for terrorism. Credible reports also continued to indicate official Pakistani support [emphasis added] for Kashmiri militant groups, such as the Harakat ul-Mujahedin (HUM), that engaged in terrorism."

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 22:57 utc | 9

Wednesday, January 23, 2008

Share this story!
Europe scared by terrorist links to Pakistan
* Time magazine quotes French counterterrorism official as saying many terror trails going back to Pakistan make country a prime suspect

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: The arrest of 14 suspected Islamist extremists – 12 Pakistanis, one Indian and one Bangladeshi - in Barcelona is giving European security forces reason for concern, the current issue of Time magazine reported.

It quotes a French counter-terrorism official as saying, “The concern across Europe is we’ll soon be facing the same kind of threat Britain has been fighting for several years now.” He says this in reference to the Pakistani community in the UK whose cohesion and relative insulation have inadvertently created niches for virulent extremist activity well hidden from outside eyes.

According to the magazine, radicals of North African origin have long been the main jihadist threat in Europe. But, the official tells the magazine that a growing number of tightly-knit Pakistani immigrants around Europe, who maintain close and frequent contact with people back home, and the eventuality of surging radicalism in Pakistan spreading to these immigrants is virtually a given.

The magazine says the July 7 London bombings that killed 52 people in 2005, provides proof of just how potent the terror collusion between extremists in Pakistan and Pakistani Europeans could be.

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 22:59 utc | 10

With CIA backing and the funneling of massive amounts of U.S. military aid, the Pakistani ISI had developed into a "parallel structure wielding enormous power over all aspects of government". (Dipankar Banerjee, "Possible Connection of ISI With Drug Industry", India Abroad, 2 December 1994). The ISI had a staff composed of military and intelligence officers, bureaucrats, undercover agents and informers, estimated at 150,000. (Ibid)

Meanwhile, CIA operations had also reinforced the Pakistani military regime led by General Zia Ul Haq:

Relations between the CIA and the ISI had grown increasingly warm following [General] Zia’s ouster of Bhutto and the advent of the military regime. … During most of the Afghan war, Pakistan was more aggressively anti-Soviet than even the United States. Soon after the Soviet military invaded Afghanistan in 1980, Zia [ul Haq] sent his ISI chief to destabilize the Soviet Central Asian states. The CIA only agreed to this plan in October 1984.(Ibid)

The ISI operating virtually as an affiliate of the CIA, played a central role in channeling support to Islamic paramilitary groups in Afghanistan and subsequently in the Muslim republics of the former Soviet Union.

Acting on behalf of the CIA, the ISI was also involved in the recruitment and training of the Mujahideen. In the ten year period from 1982 to 1992, some 35,000 Muslims from 43 Islamic countries were recruited to fight in the Afghan jihad. The madrassas in Pakistan, financed by Saudi charities, were also set up with US support with a view to "inculcating Islamic values". "The camps became virtual universities for future Islamic radicalism," (Ahmed Rashid, The Taliban). Guerilla training under CIA-ISI auspices included targeted assassinations and car bomb attacks.

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 23:12 utc | 11

"That these people were ready to go into action as terrorists in Spain - that came as a surprise," said Baltasar Garzon, the senior Spanish anti-terrorism magistrate. "In my opinion, the jihadi threat from Pakistan is the biggest emerging threat we are facing in Europe. Pakistan is an ideological and training hotbed for jihadists and they are being exported here."

That threat has been felt elsewhere. Two of four suicide bombers who attacked the London transit system in July 2005 had trained at a camp in Pakistan. Four of the five British men convicted last April in a plot to blow up targets in London using fertilizer bombs were of Pakistani origin and some had trained at a makeshift terrorist camp there.

In September, when the German authorities broke up what they suspected was a plot to bomb a U.S. air base and the Frankfurt airport, they said that three of the suspects, two of them German citizens, had trained at terrorist camps in Pakistan.

Officials said the Barcelona case pointed to a more serious dynamic: Pakistanis with no apparent previous links to Europe who appear to have been sent there on a terrorist mission.

"We had 20 terrorists show up in Spain that had been trained in Pakistan that were going to be suicide bombers, fanning out over Europe," Mike McConnell, the director of U.S. national intelligence, told the House Intelligence Committee on Thursday.

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 23:16 utc | 12

@S Brennan - @9 and @10

What do you want to say by citing some Congress critters payed by this and that interest or an anonymous 'French counter-terrorism official' quoted in Time, a primer U.S. propaganda rag?

Say it, prove it.

The major 'state sponsor of terrorism' is still the United States of America.

Start googling Operation Gladio, Strategy of Tension, School of the Americas, the Mujahideen (and U.S. supported ISI) in Pashtu-land, the NED/USAID financed deadly riots of Tibetians against Han Chinese...

Posted by: b | Nov 28 2008 23:23 utc | 13

"We had 20 terrorists show up in Spain that had been trained in Pakistan that were going to be suicide bombers, fanning out over Europe," Mike McConnell, the director of U.S. national intelligence, told the House Intelligence Committee on Thursday.

"We had eight pilots show up in the U.S. that had be trained in flight-schools in Florida and in engineering in Germany fanning out over the World Trade Center," Some Guy working for the empire told the empire parliament."

They liked that ...

Posted by: b | Nov 28 2008 23:28 utc | 14

PAKISTAN'S LINKS WITH FUNDAMENTALISM AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM
------------
HON. PETER DEUTSCH
OF FLORIDA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Friday, October 7, 1994
Mr. DEUTSCH. Mr. Speaker, I am shocked to see reports detailing the
extensive involvement of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in supporting
Islamic fundamentalist terror groups in Afghanistan and India. I have seen
Peter Arnett's excellent documentary "Terror Nation? U.S. Creation?"
shown on CNN last month. The film provides a graphic account of the links
between the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the fundamentalist regime of
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. I was disturbed to note that some Afghan groups that
have had close affiliation with Pakistani Intelligence are believed to have
been involved in the New York World Trade Center bombings.
Following an investigation, Peter Arnett reports about the New York
bombing, "It happened at this apartment complex. Police at the well-patroled
community say the Skeikh's Driver, Mahmud Aboubalima was Shalabi's most
frequent visitor. Police consider Aboubalima their prime suspect. He is the
second person from the Afghan Refuge Center implicated in a U.S. crime. But
he has not been charged. Shalabi's family blames Sheikh Rahman for the
killing, a charge a cleric denies. With Shalabi gone, Aboubalima takes
control of the Afghan Refugee Center. Aboubalima, Sheikh Rahman and Hampton
El were bound together not only by the Brooklyn-based Afghan Center, but also
by the holy war headquarters in Peshawar, Pakistan, the bustling base of
operations for the Afghan resistance. It is in Peshawar that the New York
terror campaign takes shape. Peshawar was the headquarters of Sheikh Rahman's
international network. Peshawar was also the headquarters of Gulbuddin
Hekmatyar's party, which trained four of the key New York suspects.
Hekmatyar's links to the New York suspects came as no surprise to pro-Western
afghan officials. They officially warned the U.S. government about Hekmatyar
no fewer than four times. The last warning delivered just days before the
Trade Center attack."
Speaking to former CIA Director Robert Gates, about Gulbuddin Hekmatyar,
Peter Arnett reports, "The Pakistanis showered Gulbuddin Hekmatyar with U.S.
provided weapons and sang his praises to the CIA. They had close ties with
Hakmatyar going back to the mid-1970's. Hekmatyar's Islamic fervor played
well with the fundamentalist powers of Pakistan."
Mr. Speaker, I have now come across a report in the Washington Post of
September 12th from Karachi, Pakistan, which states that: "Pakistan's army
chief and head of its intelligence agency proposed a detailed `blueprint' for
selling heroin to pay for the country's covert military operations in early
1991, according to former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif." The report provides
considerable detail on the degree to which Pakistan's military leaders have
been involved in their pursuit of an Islamic nuclear bomb and export of
fundamentalism into India. It says, "It has been rumored for years that
Pakistan's military has been involved in the drug trade. Pakistan's army, and
particularly its intelligence agency (the equivalent of the CIA) is immensely
powerful and is known for pursuing its own agenda. Over the years, civilian
political leaders have accused the military (which has run Pakistan for more
than half of its 47 years of independence) of developing the country's
nuclear technology and arming insurgents in India and other countries without
civilian knowledge or approval and sometimes in direct violation of civilian
orders. Historically, the army's chief of staff has been the most powerful
person in the country."
The significance of these reports at a time when India's investigative
agencies are discovering growing evidence of Pakistani involvement in the
heinous bombings in Bombay last March can not be under estimated. A prime
suspect in the bombings has recently been arrested with documents
including a passport, driving license and birth certificate provided to him by
the same intelligence organization. The use of drug money by the intelligence
services of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for bringing the destabalizing
effects of fundamentalism into Afghanistan and India can not be condoned. The
Administration should investigate these reports with full vigor and share its
findings with the Members of the House.

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 23:39 utc | 15

India helped FBI trace ISI-terrorist links
9 Oct 2001, 2308 hrs IST, MANOJ JOSHI, TNN

While the pakistani inter services public relations claimed that former isi director-general lt-gen mahmud ahmad sought retirement after being superseded on monday, the truth is more shocking. top sources confirmed here on tuesday, that the general lost his job because of the "evidence" india produced to show his links to one of the suicide bombers that wrecked the world trade centre. the us authorities sought his removal after confirming the fact that $100,000 were wired to wtc hijacker mohammed atta from pakistan by ahmad umar sheikh at the instance of gen mahumd. senior government sources have confirmed that india contributed significantly to establishing the link between the money transfer and the role played by the dismissed isi chief. while they did not provide details, they said that indian inputs, including sheikh’s mobile phone number, helped the fbi in tracing and establishing the link. a direct link between the isi and the wtc attack could have enormous repercussions. the us cannot but suspect whether or not there were other senior pakistani army commanders who were in the know of things. evidence of a larger conspiracy could shake us confidence in pakistan’s ability to participate in the anti-terrorism coalition. indian officials say they are vitally interested in the unravelling of the case since it could link the isi directly to the hijacking of the indian airlines kathmandu-delhi flight to kandahar last december. ahmad umar sayeed sheikh is a british national and a london school of economics graduate who was arrested by the police in delhi following a bungled 1994 kidnapping of four westerners, including an american citizen.

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 23:42 utc | 16

@S Brennan - could you please bring an argument instead of congress critter quotations?

Yea, those congress critters voted to kill lots of Iraqis, that doesn't make the right ...

Posted by: b | Nov 28 2008 23:44 utc | 17

The Washington Post, in an editorial, criticised the deal between Musharraf and militants in Waziristan, the remote tribal area bordering Afghanistan where bin Laden and his deputy Zawahiri have their hideouts, and where the resurgent Taliban forces dominate.

Of the deal, the Post wrote: "The cost of this decision will be borne by American and NATO troops in Afghanistan, whose commanders already say that the ability of the Taliban and al-Qa'ida fighters to retreat to Pakistan greatly complicates the challenge of defeating their escalating attacks."

But it was the influential Indian newspaper The Indian Express that drilled down to the heart of the matter, publishing a full-page graphic showing terrorist attacks since 9/11 and highlighting their links to Pakistan - and in so doing, in effect, labelling the country "terrorism central".

It is a charge that will infuriate Islamabad and enrage the normally good-humoured Musharraf.

But it is one that he will find increasingly difficult to defend, as he found when, on his way to the Non-Aligned Summit in Cuba, he stopped off in Brussels to address a gathering of the foreign affairs committee of the European parliament.

For, as The Indian Express graphic showed, time and again since 9/11 - in attacks across the world - there is a Pakistani connection.

Not, it must be said, an official Pakistani connection; but a connection that suggests jihadi terrorists are trained and equipped in Pakistan, or seek refuge there after they have carried out their assaults, or are loyalists of extremist Islamic groups based in Pakistan.

Take, as an example cited by the Express, the July 7, 2005, bombs on London's transport system in which 56 people were killed: three of the bombers had visited or trained in Pakistan. Similarly, when British police uncovered the bomb plot against multiple aircraft last month, it emerged that all the main suspects had links to Pakistan, including ringleader Rashid Rauf, who was arrested there.

In New Delhi in December 2001, five terrorists attacked the Indian parliament, killing 14 people. In October last year, there were multiple bomb blasts in Delhi markets that killed 61. And in Mumbai last July there was a series of blasts on trains that killed at least 187.

The Pakistani link? All the attacks, the Express recalls, were sheeted home to jihadi groups based in Pakistan - Jaish-e-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Toiba among them.

The list goes on. Way back in November 2002, three suicide bombers attacked the Paradise Hotel on the Kenyan coast at Mombasa, killing 15 and wounding 40. Al-Qa'ida claimed responsibility and six Pakistanis were arrested.

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 23:48 utc | 18

News
World news
Mumbai terror attacks
Mumbai attacks suggest a group with outside influences – and careful planning
Julian Borger
guardian.co.uk, Thursday November 27 2008 10.20 GMT

The claim of responsibility came from a group no one had heard of before, the Deccan Mujahideen. The Deccan plateau is a huge area of central and southern India, and mujahideen is the Arab word for Islamic holy warriors.

The name suggests a domestic agenda with foreign inspiration. The claim may of course be bogus, or the name could be a cover for another group, but it looks a fair guess at this early stage that this represents home-grown terrorism with an imported twist.
India is one of the principal targets of terrorism. According to the US state department, 2,300 people died in terrorist attacks in the country during the course of 2007. There are Maoist groups in the east and centre and nationalists in the north-east.

In this case it looks like Islamist extremism, for which Mumbai has been a particular target. More than 250 people were killed there in a series of 13 bomb blasts in 1993 blamed on Muslim militants. Two years ago more than 200 people were killed by bomb attacks on trains and railway stations. The police charged about 30 suspects belonging to a Pakistan-based group called Lashkar-i-Taiba and a northern group called Students Islamic Movement of India.

The violence is fuelled by longstanding ethnic tensions that were inflamed by riots in Gujarat State near Mumbai six years ago. Nearly 2,000 people were killed, most of them Muslims. The most serious attacks followed those riots.

But there is clearly something different about this attack. It has relied not on bombs, but a coordinated assault by men with rifles who seem to have arrived at some of their targets by boat. They appear to be on a suicide mission. In at least one instance they singled out Britons and Americans, and one of their targets was a Orthodox Jewish centre. Clearly there is outside influence on their strategy and ideology.

It is too early to say whether there is an al-Qaida connection, and such links can take many forms, from active training and assistance in planning and logistics to simple inspiration from the internet.

What is likely is that the attacks will get blamed on Pakistan and its Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI), as have previous Islamist atrocities. US counter-terrorism officials believe some ISI members played a role in an attack this year on the Indian embassy in Afghanistan.

Mumbai may be the latest of many outrages that have their roots in recent Indian history – but the targeting of westerners suggests this is becoming globalised, intertwined with a brand of violent extremism emanating from Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 28 2008 23:57 utc | 19

I see no mention of Israeli commandos in Eng. language Indian news accounts:

Times of India - NSG ends reign of terror at Nariman
NDTV - NSG commandos receive a rousing welcome by Mumbaikars

*****

New report: Taj operatives may have checked in 2 months ago

Intelligence sources here said they were working on the possibility that two of the terrorists who attacked Taj Mahal Palace on
Wednesday night had joined as chefs in the hotel recently and an unknown number of conspirators may have been living there as guests for the last two months.
(snip)

Sources said the expensive operation looked like an al-Qaida job. "Only that group has so much money,'' said a source.

Posted by: Alamet | Nov 29 2008 0:17 utc | 20

S Brennan,
I guess what puzzles me is given Pakistan's documented backing for terrorism -- everything you've posted has been common knowledge for many years -- what were the reasons for the US's continued backing of Musharraf? Can you explain why the US persisted in backing and funding Pakistan with $10 bn worth of CSF? I mean, wouldn't this make the US government the biggest apologist for, and backer of, the ISI?

Posted by: Rabia | Nov 29 2008 0:21 utc | 21

Surprise!

Attack may sway voters towards BJP

The unprecedented assault on Mumbai could influence voting in Rajasthan and Delhi, as India’s 9/11 playing out on national TV raised concerns in Congress and sent ripples of optimism in BJP ahead of polling in the two crucial states.

The Mumbai attack could influence voters as Delhi, an urban centre with a profile similar to the financial capital and traumatised in the past, could be swayed by BJP’s campaign. It would vote after a three-day media deluge on Mumbai. Rajasthan hits the hustings when the BJP-Congress blame game would have touched a shrill peak.
(snip)

Posted by: Alamet | Nov 29 2008 0:37 utc | 22

As I watch snippets of the MSM's coverage of these terrorists attacks in India, I can't help but see that our MSM is Israeli-occupied territory, similar to the way Pat Buchanan once famously said that our Congress is Israeli-occupied territory. It make me pretty sick the way the MSM portrays Israeli casualties in this attack as victims and heroes all rolled into one. And notice that the media pundits remain silent about Israel fast turning the Gaza Strip into a concentration camp for Palestinians.

Posted by: Cynthia | Nov 29 2008 0:44 utc | 23

Brennan you're obviously a troll so I'll say this once and then if you just keep repeating unsubstantiated allegations I trust b will know what to do with you.
You are just doing in microcosm what the mainsatream media, for want of a better cliche, has been doing since the raid in mumbai began, that is repeating accusations about Pakistan's involvement over and over without a single checkable fact to support you're claim that Pakistan's ISI were behind the attack.

This is exactly the same as the bulldust that ambitious politicians in legislatures across amerika and in other parts of the world spread about Iraq and it's weapons of mass destruction. Then when the amerikan imperialists had lathered up the Iraqi issue to the point where they believed their own bullshit they went into Iraqi spilling the blood of thousands of innocents and found out they had got it wrong.
When any of us at that time (02 and early 03) asked why the Iraqis would have weapons of mass destruction, since it would obviously be suicidal for the Ba'athist regime, we were told by the likes of you that it was because they (the Iraqis) hated our freedoms - a meaningless motive that doubtless resembles the sort of fantasy you have concocted to explain why it is that Pakistan's security apparatus would do anything that would endanger Pakistan's security so much as being involved in these raids would.

Bring some proof other than the lies of creepy careerist pols in here, something along the lines of "ISI agent Hussein G Rahman was arrested at the the hotel blah blah following a firefight", or even "Indian police intercepted signal traffic to the perpetrators which originated from the Pakistani embassy" - although in the case of the latter, being a naturally suspicious sort, evidence of the signals other than some anonymous source's claim, would be good.

If you read what we have posted properly, rather than just foaming at the mouth because many of us aren't superstitious types who take things on faith here at MoA, you will find that no one that I have seen has written that the action definitely wasn't from Pakistan, but that we have as yet seen no evidence suggesting where it was from.
Given those circumstances, despite further unsubstantiated claims by some that the other India separatist groups couldn't have committed this act even though they have been implicated in plenty of other 'terrorist actions', it is fair enough to say as many of us in here have; "Why is the media so keen on blaming Pakistan before the facts are in?"

Now please stop bill-boarding and trolling. Shit like that is like shouting during a debate, all you do is draw attention to the weakness of your argument and the paucity of facts you brought have to support that argument.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 29 2008 0:53 utc | 24

The 1993 Mumbai bombings. 250 murdered. Scores more injured. What do we know from the trial and vast research? Dawood Ibrahim, the mastermind behind the bombings, was well connected to ISI:

Although the compulsion behind the March 1993 bombings was revenge for the destructiveness of Hindu fundamentalism in late 1992, the logistical framework that made the thirteen bombings possible was the smuggling/crime syndicates that Dawood Ibrahim and ‘Tiger’ Memon, amongst others, had built up over many decades in Mumbai. Leadership of the syndicates involved in the Mumbai bombings was in the hands of Muslimcriminals who in their determination to avenge the marginalised and victimised Muslim communities of India had increasingly been drawn into the orbit of terror organised by Pakistan’s ISI and by privately-organised Islamic terrorist organisations such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba. Dawood Ibrahim and ‘Tiger’Memon became caught up in these eddies and not surprisingly a number of the bombers who brought havoc to Mumbai in March 1993 had been to Pakistan for special training in terrorist tactics. Dawood and his close associates were all wealthy men, living on their ill-gotten gains and buying their way into respectable South Asian families

JSAS isn't Counterpunch, but heh.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2008 1:03 utc | 25

It would interesting to know what "evidence" has ever been supplied to link Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jamaat-ul-Dawa to the 2006 atrocities. I don't know.

Certainly, based on what can be summarized from the literature, it is plausible that ISI could have some connection with the present crisis.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2008 1:17 utc | 26

Frankly, the eagerness to connect these events to a more-than-serendipitous achievement by BJP to win elections reeks of the kind of truther horseshit (WTCl: repub inside job) happily circulated by numerous MoA regulars.

You know the type.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2008 1:22 utc | 27

Well fine slothrop, if it is proven those involved in the current attacks in Mumbai received training in Pakistan from ISI sanctioned trainers, then we will know that this was an ISI operation. Until then the accusation is just as speculative as any accusation against any of the other groups who have committed terrorist acts in Mumbai.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 29 2008 1:44 utc | 28

No, not purely "speculative" -- no less "speculative" than the "speculation" that a lifetime of smoking camel straights leads to lung cancer.

The chain of causation seems to be: CIA backs ISI to train mujahedeen and then pakistan is rebuffed by US after soviet defeat in afghan and later, the little frankensteins stir up trouble everywhere.

Somebody's got to kill frankenstein.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2008 1:56 utc | 29

Re: How the four top officers died

source : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10475

Another snippet from eenadu. This is the account recollected one of the constable, Mr.Jhadav. It seems the martayed police officers Mr.Kamte, Mr.Karkare, Mr. Salskar and the 3 other constables, all were travelling in the same qualis vehicle. They got the news that a red maruthi swift car was parked near Police headquarters and are leaving for that. Mr.Salskar took the steering from the driver and Mr.Kamate moved to the front. Mr.Karkare was in the second row and the other constables in the back. When they were near xaviers college, the terrorist opened fire on them from the bushes. All the three officers got hit. Then the mofos came to towards the vehicle and opened fire on the others. The constable Jhadav was hit in the right shoulder and fell inside the qualis. The other 3 police men were killed. They dragged the officers out of the Qualis and drove away the qualis with the other bodies in the back. These are the mofos who got killed at the police barricades.

That was paraphrasing from a Telugu newspaper by a board poster. Maruti,swift, Qualis are car models from Suzuki and Toyota.

Not much of a BJP set up is it?

Posted by: shanks | Nov 29 2008 2:49 utc | 30

b,

NSG and MARCOs certainly know how to use a helicopter to rapple down or abseil. or just get dropped onto the roof of a building.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Marines.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARCOS

No Israeli commando was involved in the raid. They came afterwards when the fighting had already started; i.e. oberoi had been taken, Taj was supposedly down to 1 guy holding out. Then they came to Chabad house.

There is nothing sinister about Chabad house. Mostly a stop over for reservists who suddenly get religion, become cokeheads and stay place before heading to Goa or Manali to rave party or ganja toking.

They come back frizzled,the chabad house does de-addiction and also re-conversion; some guys decide Hinduism or Buddhism is a great way to live. Talk about moving from 1 shitty religion to another?

Posted by: shanks | Nov 29 2008 2:57 utc | 31

The proximity of this attack to elections is certainly a matter that raises suspicion. Also we don't see factions with overt political agendas and public relations ops claiming responsibility for the attacks. There are a lot of odd features to this attack, many of which have been presented here. By the time this has been carefully investigated and the proper players and instigators are known to us, the elections there will be history. The more extreme factions in India will likely make political gains out of this.

Posted by: Copeland | Nov 29 2008 3:18 utc | 32

maybe be problem with you all is that you think in terms of official "countries"

lots of people don't

Posted by: outsider | Nov 29 2008 4:14 utc | 33

paid trolls, perhaps?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 29 2008 5:36 utc | 34

gee, ya think.

one's too lazy to check the moa search engine before making stupid claims ('apologists for Pakistan's ISI can crow happily here') and then spamming the thread w/old worn out cia/isi info any regular knew years ago.

boring.

great post debs (alex, debs is a he)

i too think there nothing the US ptb would rather than to have indian troops on the ground 'helping' 'contain' pakistan. part of the caldron approach no doubt. would i put it past the strategy of tension crowd? never. now all they need is an excuse to have israeli troops help out. whoops, its a 2fer.

Posted by: annie | Nov 29 2008 5:47 utc | 35

i meant 'ones to lazy'... trolls to lazy

Posted by: annie | Nov 29 2008 5:49 utc | 36

Rabia 21) I guess what puzzles me is given Pakistan's documented backing for terrorism what were the reasons for the US's continued backing of Musharraf?

?Since when have State:CIA operated in tandem, when there's coke or heroin money to be made on an Islamabad Connection? It would be bone simple to delude Rice and her Statists, show them around the palace, make nice comments about her stiletto boots, feed her appropriate almost-true intel briefings, then assassinate her girlfriend Bhutto and hold up that bright shiny object as diversion from the ISI drug: terrorism link, back to that nebulous Perpetual Preferred Enemy Al Queda.

"Al-Qaeda commander Mustafa Abu al-Yazid claimed responsibility for the attack, describing Bhutto as "the most precious American asset." The Pakistani government also stated that it had proof that al-Qaeda was behind the assassination. A report for CNN stated: "the Interior Ministry also earlier told Pakistan's Geo TV that the suicide bomber belonged to Lashkar i Jhangvi—an al-Qaeda-linked militant group that the government has blamed for hundreds of killings".

Back to you, Matt and Katie!

Posted by: Yellow Tiber | Nov 29 2008 6:35 utc | 37

At shanks@30 that actually looks like an ambush, planned or not I don't know. It seems that it happened before anyone had an idea of how serious and heavily trained the terorrists were so that could explain not being a bit more carefult. But, were they the only police being ambushed? From what you post it would look like they were in a single car and alone and the terrorist even take care of finishing them and seizing the car. That's quite bad luck.

It has become a trend this late days that successful terrorist attacks are not claimed by anyone and have to be claimed by unknown groups or are assigned claim by the MSM to the usual suspects. It may be that terrorist groups are no longer interested in fame and furthering their goals but just randomly terrorize without a clear agenda. And as terrorists become targets of the Forces of Good (as if they never were before) they don't have the corage to claim responsability anymore. I guess.

In any case pakistanies are looking to very dark days ahead. If Iran was the main target of pro israeli officials in the Bush government Pakistan may be the prefered target of the new more 'pro US' officials in the Obama government. A war on Pakistan (or any conflict that brings Pakistan further into the US sphere of influence) is a war against China interests in the indian subcontinent. And who would be the main real (not the zionist inspired phantasy about crazy 'fundamentalist', when fundamentalist means implicitly muslim as there were no christian, jewish or other fundamentalist, taking over the world) rival to the US empire right now?

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 29 2008 8:24 utc | 38

Thanks shanks@31 and all -

As said - an Indian paper wrote "a first" characterizing the abseil technic, that's why I wondered about that.

The Chabad center: Still open question: Why was it the last attacker position the Indian (or Israeli) forces tried to get a hold of - 48 hours after the attack?

That has me a bit puzzled.

Posted by: b | Nov 29 2008 8:58 utc | 39

Hmm - one of the attackers "confessed":

Azam, who was at Nair hospital for nearly four hours, was taken away by the intelligence agencies in the early hours of Thursday to an unknown location after the hospital authorities had removed the bullet from his hand and declared that his condition stable. But it seems the police grilling was so intense that before he left the hospital for an undisclosed location he pleaded with the police and the medical staff to kill him. "Now, I don't want to live," he said.

Posted by: b | Nov 29 2008 9:16 utc | 40

@ 38, it certainly is an ambush; less sophisticated version of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrenpoint_ambush

I was replying to b's guess that it was a targeted assassination of specific individuals. These chaps had no need to go there, they could have been directing things remotely.

Posted by: shanks | Nov 29 2008 9:25 utc | 41

Silly silly India hasn't thought this through. This war on terror spreads in a manner much like the fallacious 'domino theory' America claimed would cause all of IndoChina to 'go communist' in the 1960's.

Oh, it has, it has.

The entire 1960s,70s,80s and upto mid 90s batches of the Armed forces strongly dislike the United States and did NOT trust the Americans. So the political winds may change, but that batches are still in the Forces, so that would take a little bit of time for it to change the tunes. The Forces principally see it as US interference

-- 1971 B'desh war
-- Kissenger sabre rattling
-- the food grain pricing issue when Indian harvests failed (thus the "green revolution")
-- India buying Russian arms
-- Socialist state

as the reason, never to trust the USA.

Till now, that is. An ever increasing arms purchase and cross training is happening with USA and rent boy Israel. Not Good for India. here's where the BJP naivete is exposed in seeing Israel and USA as the good guys.(partly, as the joke goes, the gujaratis, marathis and the delhities want to travel back&forth freely to the Land of the free to see Grandma,pa and the extended family)

It has been thought through, m'am. India signed the N'deal only because it needs another 10 years for the Thorium cycle to work. at least. The current exigencies are what compels India to twist in the wind and talk like a puppet. The Iran vote is a classic case where we voted against our national interest. Oil/gas, that is.

The invasion of Pakistan by America, England, Nato or even some mercenary outfit out of a tame Islamic regime will inevitably lead to increase violence by some of India's Muslim population.

The invasion as well as the unrest is far fetched. When the natives themselves have a tough time controlling the masses....

As I said in another post India has 140 million Islamic citizens, if even a tiny percentage of them decide that they must help save Pakistan, India would descend into a chaos that would make Mumbai 09 seem minor in comparison.

That presumes that a "muslim" identity is monolithic in India; A Kerala muslim customs are weird when compared to Kashmiri ones. Actually, according to the latest census, more muslims are in poverty proportionally compared to other communities.(Congress tried to address it, the BJP promptly called it appeasement, vote bank politics!)

Point is, damned difficult to worry about Pak., when your own existence is hand to mouth.

But you do have a strong case, where the poor can be made an instrument for any number of machinations.

MJ Akbar,writes that it's the complete negligence by GOI that is the root of all this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/27/mumbai-terror-attacks-india3

Posted by: shanks | Nov 29 2008 9:55 utc | 42

For those who can read spanish (or wish to use google translation services) El Mundo has the most detailed report about the attack. It includes a list with all the places attacked and even mentions the yellow/orange/red band on their wrists and the speculation it may have a relation with hindu extremists.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/11/28/internacional/1227885894.html?a=53db4b7bea8b55b782f0e9bb3a3a92a2&t=1227955014>Así fue el asalto a Bombay: terroristas adiestrados como soldados de élite

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 29 2008 10:49 utc | 43

In the detailed version from ElMundo Hermant Karkare is killed around 22'15h, an hour later than the first attack, in or near the Cama & Albless hospital that becomes the seventh attacked place. So it's a bit surprising that they would rush without more protection to the new attack site.

But it seems like there were three or five groups. Three entered almost immediatly into the two hotels and the Nariman house and one or two more spreading chaos around Mombai and responsable for killing Karkare and the other police officers.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 29 2008 11:04 utc | 44

The BBC web site carries a description of the attackers in the train station and the Leopold cafe as 'foreign and fair skinned':

Then, the "foreign looking, fair skinned" men, as Mr Mishra remembers them, simply carried on killing

Gaffar Abdul Amir, an Iraqi tourist from Baghdad, says he saw at least two men who started the firing outside the Leopold Cafe.

"They did not look Indian, they looked foreign. One of them, I thought, had blonde hair. The other had a punkish hairstyle. They were neatly dressed," says Mr Amir.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7752625.stm>link

Would those be the rumoured 'british' terrorists? However all the photos are from hindu (or pakistani) looking men (from which of the attacked places the two-three photos of terrorist came from? I would say that at least one seem to be from the train station). Pakistani pasthuns may be fair skinned and blonde though but I don't see radical pasthuns rushing to fight India when they can go west. Of course it could just be confusion.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 29 2008 12:01 utc | 45

Press Trust of India: Dawood gang provided logistics to Lashkar militants in Mumbai

Mumbai, Nov 29 (PTI) Underworld don Dawood Ibrahim's henchman, suspected to be a Colaba-based businessman, handed over arms and explosives to Lashkar-e-Toiba militants for carrying out attacks in Mumbai, in what is emerging as the first major joint operation by the Karachi-based gangster and the banned outfit, official sources said here.

Ajmal Amin, the only militant arrested during the operation, told interrogators that the dozen ultras who sailed from Karachi had come to Sasool dock from where they were taken first to Cuff Parade and later to Gateway of India in boats arranged by a front man of Dawood, who runs several custom clearing houses in Mumbai, the sources claimed.

Mumbai police and central security agencies have launched a massive manhunt for the businessman considered as a henchman of Dawood, who has been listed as Global Terrorist having links to Al-Qaeda by teh United States.

The suspect looks after some customs clearing mechanism and also indulges in diesel smuggling for the underworld don, the sources claimed.

After getting into waiting boats arranged by Dawood's gang in Mumbai, arms, ammunition and plastic explosives were quickly transferred to the waiting boats that took the terrorists to the Gateway of India which was had been marked as launching pad for the terror strike, the first of its kind in the country terrorism history.

Should we trust those stories?

Posted by: b | Nov 29 2008 14:37 utc | 46

On from both the Mumbai threads...

Rick wrote: One of the reasons I enjoy the comments at MOA is that many here believe like myself that the U.S. is actually causing terrorism.

It certainly is - it is in its interest. Divide and rule, alarm, spread chaos; stability as a geo political move is not favored when one holds the upper hand. That would take common sense, caring and generosity, or a long term vision; the US is not known for any of that. (Nor was say Spain or France, or other ‘empires’ - but times have changed since then, strategically.)

Yet, this understanding seems to stagger, hesitate, halt and screech to a stop re. 9/11. There are limits or thresholds, never stated outright but widely understood. Being a ‘truther’ is stigmatized, - conspiracy theorist, etc. - and the whole topic is even partly taboo.

Picking around the edges - e.g saying that Mossad might be involved in ..- and leaving 9/11 out of the picture, a kind of ‘old’ event one has to forget, accept, or ‘get over’, somehow neglect, be blind to, invalidates any kind of analysis and historical perspective. The whole Islamist Terrorist hype springs from that event. And is largely accepted because of it. If only for that reason, it deserves attention. Next, US finance and the banking scandal is also, if only tangentially, related to 9/11, how exactly I obviously could never detail - so don’t ask - nobody knows, there is only a lot of speculation, disparate ‘facts’ or ‘factoids’...CT stuff.

Americans despise the so called Communist dictatorships, because full adherence was required, and even minor dissidence was violently repressed. But general acceptance with allowed partial disagreement (e.g. Naomi Klein) managed, soft soaped, gate-kept, by the media, is no better, not more honorable, worthy, ethical; and not smarter looking to the future.

Gratuitous, barbaric. Says N. Sarkozy today (about Mumbai.) Heh! Everyone is supposed to be terrified of hidden, incomprehensible, yes barbaric, poison in their societies. Which has to be extirpated... I’m listening to the radio, Islamist, Islamist, Islamist, etc.

Expect ‘terrorist’ actions of this type to escalate. I posted about some in France, very minor. Anyway.

Posted by: Tangerine | Nov 29 2008 14:51 utc | 47

Hmm - only 10 attackers? That sounded different over the last days. Also it was widely reported that Hermant Karkare was killed at the Taj. Hmmm ...

Kasab killed Karkare, Salaskar and Kamte: Mumbai police

MUMBAI: Mohammad Ajmal Mohammad Amin Kasab, the only terrorist to have been arrested in connection with the three-day terror attack, shot dead
Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) chief Hemant Karkare, Mumbai police sources said here on Saturday.

They said Kasab, a Pakistani national who was remanded to police custody till December 11, also killed encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar and Additional Commissioner of Police Ashok Kamte.

The sources said ten terrorists had arrived in the city for the first time on the night of Wednesday using the sea route and then dispersed in pairs to the targeted locations.

The terrorists allegedly took taxis to their assigned locations and paid in Indian currency. "Each terrorist was carrying Rs 6,200 with them," a senior police official said.

Kasab was arrested on the night of Wednesday after his partner, whose identity is stated to be Ismail Khan, was shot dead by the police at Girgaum Chowpatty locality in south Mumbai.

Kasab and his partner had first opened fire at CST railway station and then proceeded to Cama hospital and G T Hospital, a senior police official said.

Kasab has allegedly revealed that their plan was to take hostages at the Taj hotel, Oberoi Hotel and Nariman House and then use them to escape from the city, he added.

He said the Indian financial capital was chosen keeping in mind the worldwide impact it would have.

According to a Mumbai crime branch official, the ten terrorists had not come to Mumbai before this to conduct any 'recce' and they had learnt about the locations with the help of Google Earth.

The police are still verifying as to how the blast in suburban Vile Parle and Dockyard Road in south Mumbai was executed and if the terrorist had received help from any local group.

Posted by: b | Nov 29 2008 14:52 utc | 48

Given the chaos and the fact that some of the terrorist could have been staying in the hotels. What are the chances than some of them converted back to being 'hostages' and walked away in the confusion.

Same for the group or groups wracking havoc from the train station up north to the hospital. One of those terrorists seems to be the one captured ... only slightly wounded in hand by some account, that from a group of ten or twelve heavy trained terrorist that have been resisting to the death hundred of commandos for three days!

What about the talk about bombing the Taj hotel? And the RDX explosives that some sources tell were found there? Why didn't bother to use them? If they were to die why don't detonate everything with them like the terrorists in Madrid did (blowing completely the building were they were holed at the end).

I have also read that groups of terrorists were captured alive but now it seems there is only one.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 29 2008 15:01 utc | 49

There seems to be also now a rush of indian and british authorities to refute 'rumours' that british citizens were involved in the attacks. Some british tabloids seem to have been reporting as if that was confirmed but given their likely anti (local) pakistani bias that doesn't prove much.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 29 2008 15:04 utc | 50

On a technical note, is a GPS device active or passive?

Some channels are going on about how the terrorists used GPS devices to pilot the hijacked vessels to the port. The same GPS device is said to be giving details all the way back to Karachi by the logs or whatever(presumably whenever it pinged out).

Is that possible? I thought it is passive device, waiting for signals from 3 sats (at least) to triangulate.

Are there other types? It is plausible that the satellite logs can have details of a specific GPS device requesting input?

Posted by: shanks | Nov 29 2008 15:49 utc | 51

Guyana has been blocked for 5 days, completely immobile, schools closed, shops empty, and even ppl prevented from reaching a hospital. The whole country is in lockdown. Ok it is France.

This isn’t reported in the news at all. Not even in France (well that is hardly surprising.) No terrorists, no blood, no Islamists, no rich tourists blocked. Just various groups who decided enough is enough, they would bring everything to a standstill.

The complaints are about high gas prices. The exact details I don’t know, but basically the prices are set by a conglomerate composed of French Gvmt. and Oil cos (incl. Exxon, Shell etc.) So the ppl of Guyana are acting and doing destroy for - a free market! These tiny territories of old colonies are in very poor position over all.

one article in F from the OK, even good, internet paper Rue89:

http://www.rue89.com/2008/11/27/la-guyane-totalement-paralysee-dans-lindifference-generale>link

Posted by: Tangerine | Nov 29 2008 16:37 utc | 52

@shanks - On a technical note, is a GPS device active or passive?

Passive in that they do NOT send out signals but receive them. But lots of GPS devices are able to record their own movement. Nice feature if you want to map out your neighborhood.

Posted by: b | Nov 29 2008 16:42 utc | 53

arabia,

I can not explain the CIA's love affair with terrorists [ISI] who regularly conspire to kill US citizens, but then I'm a small picture guy...big picture CIA guys see the value in supporting thugs who kill Americans and American allies...and I never could.

Speaking of "big picture" guys who support the murder of civilians be they foriegn or domestic...how about that old ISI ally and Casey protégée Robert Gates getting one more crack at helping Al Quada get the bomb. You got love the fact that Mr. "Change" is putting an old Reagan political hack in charge.

_________________________________________

"Senior U.S. officials at first denied the existence of proof to support Indian claims of ISI involvement in the attacks. “I haven’t seen any evidence or proof that foreign agents were involved,” Defence Secretary Robert Gates said on July 10.
However, the Times reported earlier this week that a top CIA official travelled to Pakistan to confront officials with evidence of the ISI’s continued support of terrorism. CIA deputy director Stephen R. Kappes carried with him a large mass of evidence, including the available communications intelligence on the Kabul bombing.

U.S. President George Bush is also believed to have confronted Pakistani Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani on the ISI’s support for terrorism during their recent meeting. President Bush also complained that tactical intelligence provided by the U.S. to Pakistan was being leaked by ISI elements to terrorists. Before his visit to the U.S., Mr. Gilani issued orders placing the ISI under the control of the Interior Ministry, but backed down under pressure from the Pakistan Army.

Government officials who spoke to the Times said the ISI officers whose conversations with terrorists had been intercepted “had not been renegades,” suggesting that the Kabul bombing was authorised by the organisation. “It confirmed some suspicions that I think were widely held,” one State Department official told the Times of the intercepted communications. “There was a sense,” he said, “that there was finally direct proof.” - http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/02/stories/2008080255181200.htm

Posted by: S Brennan | Nov 29 2008 16:54 utc | 54

'Pak may relocate 100,000 army personnel to border'

Link to rediff

Nice excuse in not supporting NATO in afghanistan now. expect more convoy attacks now.

Posted by: shanks | Nov 29 2008 17:10 utc | 55

looks nariman house was a goner from the get go. people killed even before the NSG came.
Link to NYT

delay or not, hostages were none, from the start probably

Posted by: shanks | Nov 29 2008 17:26 utc | 56

#45 - "an Iraqi tourist from Baghdad"

i really don't know how to process this info..

Posted by: rudolf | Nov 29 2008 18:14 utc | 57

These three Mumbai threads have developed quite spectacularly, many thanks especially to Shanks and ThePaper!

*******

This was published Thursday, Nov. 27. Purohit is the active duty army officer arrested in connection to the Malegaon bombing.

Is Purohit the man who knows too much?

Maharashtra's ATS chief Hemant Karkare met the national security advisor (NSA) M K Narayanan and the chief of Army intelligence in Delhi on Tuesday along with two of his officers, sources told TOI on Wednesday.
(snip)

The ATS's faux pas in the Nashik court last Saturday when it alleged Purohit's role in the Samjhauta train blast of February 2007, has put the Indian government in a bind.

The meeting of home secretaries of India and Pakistan is taking place in Islamabad this week and the ATS's allegation against Purohit may come handy to that country to debunk India's claims that the Samjhauta blast was the handiwork of the ISI.

Sources also say the role of Purohit was discussed in further detail. The officer's lawyer had argued in court that he had done some of the best operations in the country and the Indians should be proud of him. Purohit has worked in intelligence in J&K and would have been privy to some very sensistive information.

The Centre fears that if Purohit discloses to the court or to the media, after his release on bail, details of covert operations carried out by him for military intelligence then it would internationally face a major embarrassment. Purohit had taken part in several sensitive operations in J& K and Northeast.

What is also worrying the Centre is the disclosure made under narco-analysis by both Purohit and another accused Chaturvedi that non-Wahabi Muslims had taken part in the conspirary to plant bombs in Malegaon. If this is true then it reveals a nexus between fanatic Hindu elements and certain Muslim groups. The Centre is also concerned that so far the exact source of RDX believed to have been smuggled by Purohit has not been identified so far.

Posted by: Alamet | Nov 29 2008 18:26 utc | 58

an antidote to hysteria & speculation, it would seem the truth is very bery far away - i have always thought that the operational aspects of militant islam have always been overstated & that their actions & events have benn done with the complicity of state actors - tho even here it is far from clear whether this group was kashmiri or pakistani - it is so chaotic & bordellic it would seem to be the work of the indian mafia with their links to criminals who use islam as a shroud to hide more basic impulses as has been the case in these incidents in india before

Posted by: | Nov 29 2008 18:27 utc | 59

As always, I look for the long distance connections. What I think I see is disquieting.

Meet the BJP: The Rise Of The Hindu Right

Newsweek Nov 22, 2008

(snip)
consider the BJP's candidate for prime minister this time around. Lal Krishna Advani is an aging rabble-rouser who in the mid-1990s helped gather a huge Hindu mob that tore down the 16th-century Babri Mosque, leading to riots that killed more than 2,000 people (Advani was later cleared of criminal charges). He is far more radical than his predecessor, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who served as prime minister from 1998 to 2004. And Advani's heir apparent is Gujarat's chief minister, Narendra Modi—who has been denied entry to the United States for his alleged role in the 2002 riots in Gujarat that killed more than 1,000. Not long after the riots, Modi warned a crowd that Muslims were trying to erode India's Hindu majority by having many children. "We have to teach a lesson to those who are increasing the population at an alarming rate," he said.
(snip)

The explanation for the BJP's rightward tilt lies with its increased reliance on its parent organization, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). During the Vajpayee years and in the run-up to the 2004 national elections, the BJP generally tried to divorce itself from anti-Muslim vitriol and the RSS. But the debacle of that campaign—in which Congress won a stunning victory despite the consensus that the BJP had presided over an economic boom—gave nationalists the upper hand. The BJP's defeat reminded its leadership that it remains a cadre-based party united by its ideology, not a charismatic leader. And the bulk of those cadres come from the 4.5 million-member RSS. The RSS advocates a philosophy known as Hindutva and favors turning India into a Hindu state (the country's population is 80 percent Hindu) and designating religious minorities as second-class citizens. Without its nationalist ideology it wouldn't be clear what the BJP stood for. On most issues, the party's positions are actually very similar to Congress's (both parties advocate further economic reform and increased ties to the United States, for example).
(snip)

Rediff.com May 27, 2003

(snip)
The BJP, and more broadly, the Sangh Parivar, has an acute and long-standing Israel obsession. Establishing full relations with Israel was always a distinctive part of the Jana Sangh-BJP's agenda. Indeed, when RSS chief Balasaheb Deoras was asked in late 1991 -- after India's turn towards economic neoliberalism -- what's the one thing he wanted from the soft-on-the-BJP Narasimha Rao government, he unhesitatingly answered: full-scale relations with Israel.

There are three reasons for the BJP's fascination with Israel and Zionism. First, a desire to toady up to the US through its most important strategic ally outside Europe, and thus isolate Pakistan, which cannot possibly ally with Israel as an "Islamic" state. Second, the BJP shares Likud's Islamophobia and anti-Arabism. The third reason is hyper-nationalism. The BJP is fascinated by the highly militarised, tough-as-nails nature of Israeli society and by its state's willingness to use massive force against the Palestinians whom it treats as terrorists and sub-human vermin, pure and simple. This closely parallels what some people in the Parivar would like to do to India's own religious minorities.
(snip)

Counterpunch November 7 / 9, 2008

(snip)
The Shahs remain active in Houston’s Indian community, not only in the ecumenical Gujarati Samaj (a society for people from Gujarat), but also in the far more cruel organizations of the Hindu Right, such as the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Overseas Friends of the BJP (the main political party of the Hindu Right) and the Ekal Vidyalaya. Shah’s parents, Ramesh and Kokila, not only work as volunteers for these outfits, but they also held positions of authority in them. Their daughter was not far behind. She was an active member of the VHPA, the U. S. branch of the most virulently fascistic outfit within India. The VHP’s head, Ashok Singhal, believes that his organization should “inculcate a fear psychosis among [India’s] Muslim community.” This was Shah’s boss. Till 2001, Shah was the National Coordinator of the VHPA.
(snip)

Posted by: Alamet | Nov 29 2008 18:44 utc | 60

moi-même, evidement

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2008 18:49 utc | 61

strange bedfellows? in a nutshell

the team: US/IS/UK/India vs pakistan

US, UK, Israel ramp up intelligence aid to India

WASHINGTON: Unprecedented intelligence cooperation involving investigating agencies and spy outfits of India, United States, United Kingdom and Israel has got underway to crack the method and motive behind the Mumbai terrorist massacre, now widely blamed on Islamist radicals who appeared to have all four countries on their hit list when they arrived on the shores of India.

Investigators, forensic analysts, counter-terrorism experts and spymasters from agencies the four countries are converging in New Delhi and Mumbai to put their heads, resources, and skills together to understand the evolving nature of the beast. The spy chief of the Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence(ISI) is also being summoned to India to help with the investigations because of the widely-held view that the terrorists' footprints go back to Pakistan.

The Bush administration has taken the lead to forge cooperation, partly out of concern that charges by India that the terror plot has Pakistani fingerprints could setback fast-improving government-to-government and people-to-people ties between the two countries, officials said.

But there is an implicit recognition both in New Delhi and Washington, and also other world capitals, that Pakistan's hard-line Army and its spy agency are spoilers of the honeymoon between the civilian governments and the people of India and Pakistan. Hence the summons to the country's chief spook, Ahmad Shuja Pasha, an acolyte of the new Army Chief Pervez Kiyani, himself a former ISI chief.

....

The multi-nation intelligence cooperation has been precipitated in part by the death of Americans, Britons, and Israelis, in the carnage. Thousands of Indians have died in terror attacks in India in the previous two decades without the world getting exercised about it, but the manner in which the terrorists who attacked Mumbai are reported to have singled out Americans and Britons, besides pointedly occupying a Jewish center, has revealed that their agenda was wider than just domestic discontent or the Kashmir issue.

Posted by: annie | Nov 29 2008 19:51 utc | 62

& whatever friend slothrops says - militant islam could not exist without a belligerent & murderous u s imperialism.

we have more than enough evidence to suggest the involvement of imperialism in the organisation & creation of the many many armed grroups all over the world. it was imperialism that turned a moribund militant islam into an explosive one

the targets of these types of groups is always soft & doe not take einstein to organise - the youth in these particular attacks are an indicator. it is why it has always been inconceivable to me that 9/11 was organised by any organisation other than a state or with full complicity of state(s). bali, london & spain were also impoverished actions - operationally. what they succeeded in doing was to exacerbate the fear & division that had already become overt in western civilisations project

a century from now we will understand better what exactly were the facts the involved the secret services of the empire, of britain, of france, of germany, of egypt, algeria, israel, india & pakistan

imperialism, especially in crisis is oppossed to peace, to peace of any kind. fear & hysteria are its historic partners

& today it seems very far from reality to say that a few ragassed militant islamists are the principal benificiaries of these terrible events

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2008 19:53 utc | 63

& if there is on clear lesson from the 60's to now - with armed groups all over the globe - how quickly they were comprimised in part or in whole by its 'enemy', how operationally they were controlled by persons very far from the orignial intent of such groups. the red brigades of italy are a good case in point - with relations with german & israeli intelligence services, relations with the fascist 'grey wolves' of turkey etc, etc

i am completely cynical about who benefits because in the short term it is always to the benefit to u s imperialism but in the short term we the people are always the losers

the people of the world want peace - they have expressed that openly. one day it will come

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2008 20:06 utc | 64

Settler, Lubavitch, Likud connection and more:

Lubavitch involvement with drugs,money laundering and diamonds

http://www.freespeechzoneblog.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1490

Posted by: mattes | Nov 29 2008 21:37 utc | 65

A collection of http://www.rediff.com/cms/print.jsp?docpath=/news/2008/nov/28-some-questions-about-the-terror-attacks.htm>questions about the attacks.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 29 2008 22:06 utc | 66

Going on from what Giap wrote about State actors in many large 'terrorist' operations, it seems from where I sit that the states most likely to benefit from the action in Mumbai are USuk/BJPIndia/Israel.

The prez elect of amerika has given a firm commitment to move troops from Iraq where he imagines they are no longer needed, to Afghanistan where they are required, he claims. The problem is that the people amerika has declared war on the Pashtu, are spread across two nation states so war in Afghanistan of itself cannot truly subjugate these people and turn them away from the ancient culture into dumbed down consumerists. Therefore USuk must wage war against those Pashtu who live in Pakistan as well but the Pakistani government stands ready and willing to do that themselves, repeatedly advising USuk that their presence on Pakistan soil is not required, not wanted and certainly not gonna be tolerated.
That dichotomy of belligerence could have worked with the BushCo administration who had no interest in the Pashtu other than shoting or bombing any head which appeared over the parapet, but Obama appears to want more.
As I said above the total subjugation of the Pashtu seems to be the primary aim of the new amerikan administration. Obama and his crew of washed up dem party hacks (on sale now - two wars for the price of one - highest bid not necessarily accepted - must check with AIPAC) have spoken about the need to take the war into Pakistan.

As shanks pointed out above if India moves all it's forces up to the Pakistani border, Pakistan will have no choice other than to respond by moving the bulk of it's forces down to the India/Pakistan border. If they don't India will almost certainly launch so called 'punitive raids' into Pakistan killing Pakistani citizens.

So the Pakistani military war against the Pashtu will stop for the time being and that will create the perfect excuse for USuk to invade Pakistan from the north.

It will be presented to western eyes much as shanks is trying to present it here. That Pakistan would have some sort of a choice in whether or not they went eyeball to eyeball with the Indian forces on their Southern border. There could be no choice, if Pakistan fails to man their southern border sufficiently India who as one can see here is forever getting into boundary disputes with it's neighbours, will at the very least re-kindle one of the many border disputes between the two nations claiming back some territory that they have previously agreed was Pakistan.
More likely the new BJP controlled government will decide Pakistan needs to be 'punished' for Mumbai. Read some of the comments in the piece shanks linked to and you will see a thirst for blood on the part of the usual loons, rednecks and crazies that every country has and which the BJP panders to.

If India mans up it's border, Pakistan must do the same in which case Obama will have the perfect excuse (in his eyes and the eyes of the somnolent amerikan people) to invade Pakistan.

If war is like chess and this particular conflict is playing out like a chess match, I would be interested to see what strategy Pakistan could construct where the Mumbai attacks were instigated by them and they benefited from the attacks.

I can't think of one maybe someone else can.

There may be several intermediate steps in the invasion of Pakistan which I outlined above. The Pakistan strategists aren't fools and they may be persuaded to try to spread their forces between the NW frontier and the Indian border. Or even attempt a counter strategy of not fronting down South.

If they don't go South or even split their forces to cover both fronts, you can be sure that India will be receiving 'advice' from it's new ally amerika, to initiate some conflict, perhaps to settle the Kashmir 'problem once and for all, by moving the border further into Pakistan thereby cutting off the 'terror supply line'.

If Pakistani forces do move South as conventional strategy suggests they will have to since the danger to the Pakistani state from an Indian invasion is far worse than anything the Pashtu who are basically just reacting to provocation, could cook up, then we can be sure that amerikan special forces plus drones, will provoke the Pakistani Pashtu.
They will probably react, of course understanding the danger they may be disciplined enough not to do anything at first, but the provocations with be ramped up until the the Pashtu do hit back. Whereupon USuk have the 'excuse' to invade. Game over.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 29 2008 22:15 utc | 67

most likely to benefit from the action in Mumbai are USuk/BJPIndia/Israel.

To risk nuclear confrontation and eliminate all cooperation from pakistan in the gwot?

c'mon.

These attacks, and any of them, don't "benefit" anyone.

And invading pakistan is a madness I don't think even cheney possesses.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2008 23:36 utc | 68

#68 slothrop: those who sell weapons, security devices, security training, security forces ... and lend the money to pay for same benefit.

Posted by: plushtown | Nov 29 2008 23:48 utc | 69

those who sell weapons, security devices, security training, security forces

those who want pakistan partitioned to slice off baluchistan.

Posted by: annie | Nov 29 2008 23:58 utc | 70

Debs,

With respect to "Game Over" you must be making reference The End Of Everything As We Know IT. Give the Obama administration some credit in the brains and sanity department, to not stumble and clusterfuck their way into World War Three. Inducing the mobilization, in theater, of armies of millions of men, to the end of effectively dismembering a huge regional power, which possesses nukes and the total willingness to defend national sovereignty at all cost, and the plot thickens into the apocalyptic.

Obama's war aims in Afghanistan are frankly not realistic--not to mention pursuing a guerilla army all over the wilds of North Pakistan,-- given that there is no way of defining what winning would mean. With all Obama's brainpower and the help of experienced folks he must soon sense that NATO countries already have cold feet over the war in Afghanistan. The allies are already aware that they are "waist deep in the Big Muddy" --they are not going into Pakistan if "the Big Fool says to push on".

Fatalistic conclusions are being projected in the commentary, based on the conviction that Obama, just like the deranged president that preceeded him, will not acknowledge any limits to the power of the United States.

Obama would have to be a madman not to come to terms very soon with the limits of unilateral military action. He would have to be a fool to disappoint Europe's leaders and the world public so soon and squander the considerable diplomatic advantage he enjoys going into office.

Barack Obama was not elected in such an enthusiastic outburst of popular sovereignty to be another vessel for unhinged militarism and national hubris. He was not elected in order to protract our national agony, but to find some constructive alternative to the way we've been doing things in this country.

There has to be some appeal to realpolitik, to the USA living within its means, to the nation understanding that you can't make war on the Pashtun, dismember a regional power in South Asia, after waging a colonial war for 5 years that has bankrupted your nation, and brought the whole fucking world to the brink of economic ruin. We have lived under an irresponsible administration that has wrecked havoc. There has to be a new resolve to act differently.

Posted by: Copeland | Nov 30 2008 2:01 utc | 71

This Mumbay attack reminds me so much of the shooting of Anna Politkovskaia in Russia.

Instantly the media pointed the finger at Poutine as she was a vocal opponent of his administration.

I had read her book and she had little understanding of foreign affairs by the way.

But who profited from that crime. Not Poutine. But the western elite and it's media who could once again grandstand and point the finger at Poutine.

For who else could have done that, assassinating a woman journalist whose main focus was Poutine's Russia..?

Well, this time in India, the same pattern presents itself again.

A false flag terror operation with patsies carrying british passports doing the dirty work and the media trying to frame muslims and Pakistan.

Pakistan is indeed giving support to some Talibans fighting in Afghanistan against Western forces.

India, supported by the West, in turn is supporting its own Talibans fighting Pakistan.

Whose Talibans have done the Mumbai attack..?

Are they Pakistan sponsored Talibans poking at India..? Doubtful.

Are they Western sponsored Talibans doing a false flag so as to put the blame on Pakistan who seems unwiling to play by the West's book..? Could be.

But who knows.

Posted by: Stephane | Dec 1 2008 9:51 utc | 72