Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 28, 2008
Citibank’s Crazy Business Model

A screenshot of the current homepage of Citibank in Germany (Via EuroIntelligence).


bigger

The bank offers consumer-credit up to €50,000 starting at 3.99% effective yearly interest rate. In the lower right corner, Citibank offers 5.15% interest on 12 month fixed deposits.

Citibank is borrowing at 5.15% and lending at 3.99%? That will certainly generate some great turnover, but why is that supposed to be a sane business model?

Because of income tax on interest it would likely not be profitable for me to borrow from Citibank and deposit the borrowed money with them. But how does this work from Citibank’s perspective?

Comments

Hmmm, it appears that they are trying to expand into the charity industry. Shouldn’t there be somebody in that company that realizes that the numbers don’t add up for a profit?

Posted by: IanTheGreat | Oct 28 2008 10:49 utc | 1

Interesting Rationale for the crisis

The seeds of the global credit crunch lie in the US response to the 9/11 terror attacks, an academic said today.
Dr Andrew Baker, senior lecturer of political economy at Queen’s University, Belfast said there could be no simple explanation for the crisis, but argued US reaction to the Twin Towers attack was key.
Dr Baker said too few people understood the complex links between politics, consumer spending and international financial systems and so failed to foresee the consequences of the free market.
“While there is no simple, straightforward explanation for the recent economic downturn, we can trace the roots of the crisis back to the 9/11 terror attacks,” Dr Baker said.
“After 9/11 American people were encouraged to spend, spend, spend in the spirit of patriotism to help restart the failing economy.
“To fuel that spending, in the extraordinary political and psychological climate of that time, US policy makers actively encouraged levels of borrowing and lending that would never otherwise have been allowed.
“As their spending increased, many US homeowners found themselves stretched to the limit. Unable to meet their mortgage repayments, many of their homes were repossessed.
“In the meantime, however, banks and financial institutions had used their customers’ mortgages and the value of their homes to create two new financial products known as mortgage debt securities and credit default swaps in an effort to spread the risk of mortgage defaults, but in reality this just expanded the amount of debt in the system.
“Unfortunately, when the decade-long property bubble on both sides of the Atlantic began to deflate, this house of cards came tumbling down.”

Posted by: CP | Oct 28 2008 11:28 utc | 2

It’s also hard for me to believe that the folks at Citibank have turned over a new leaf by suddenly becoming less hedonistic in the way they treat their customers. What I do believe is taking place here is that being top recipients of Federal handouts has afforded them the luxury of being more altruistic towards their customers.

Posted by: Cynthia | Oct 28 2008 14:12 utc | 3

Taking into account that I am just guessing here, I can only think of 2 (weird) explanations.
1)
If you factor in the (what I assume they estimate will be a lot of) inflation, it might actually make sense from citibank’s perspective.
2)
The interbank loans are so tight, that a lot more consumer-credit is needed to fill in the gap. And they are planning to pay the (high) interest for existing loans with new “attractive & easy to sell” consumer-debt. Of course this kind of banking is just a ponzi scheme in the extreme, but it always has been a “regulated” ponzi scheme anyway.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 28 2008 14:14 utc | 4

1) They are vampires and need to circulate the money like blood with real people, otherwise it just turns to dust.
or
2) They’ll make it up in late fees.

Posted by: biklett | Oct 28 2008 16:03 utc | 5

Actually, I thought about this yesterday. It works if you loan out more then you loan in, which you can do if you run your bank from somewhere that has no reserve requirement. But since the eurozone has, this works fine for getting bigger turnover (and bonuses) while running the bank into the ground (where the government will take care of the losses).

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Oct 28 2008 16:40 utc | 6

I once looked into getting a loan in DE. The banks are charging fees that push the teaser rate much higher. Also, most people don’t qualify for the teaser rate.

Posted by: IF | Oct 28 2008 16:41 utc | 7

In response to CP
This article may be disingenuous. But it promotes the idea that the banking crises is related to and caused by the 911 attacks. It is a very convenient proposition for the western world. Finding a way to blame the muslims for this crisis was not an easy feat but it appears to be possible.
Indeed the 911 attacks are related to the current financial crisis. They were designed and carried out by “Wall Street” to push ahead with the collapsing ponzi scheme they had running for so long.
Better read “911 Synthetic Terror” by Webster Griffin Tarpley.

Posted by: Steph | Oct 28 2008 16:50 utc | 8

That ad reminds me of an auto commercial I used to hear on the radio years ago.
Hysterical voice: “Our prices are so low we’re losing money on every car we sell.”
Calm voice: “Don’t worry. We’ll make up for it on the volume.”
I always thought it was humor. It never occurred to me that it could be a real business model.

Posted by: Sgt Dan | Oct 28 2008 17:15 utc | 9

These rates Citibank is offering on euro “Festgeld” are for extremely large, long-term deposits (of up to six years), the the loan consumer rates are for short-term credits. Which means they are “paying” a premium to get their hands on long-term euro holdings.
Does this mean they are counting on the euro and/or interest rates going up? Perhaps someone could fill us in on what the bankers must have in mind…

Posted by: ralphieboy | Oct 28 2008 17:18 utc | 10

I found this paper (short PDF, 8 oct. 08) from the Reserve Bank of Minneapolis of interest.
ABSTRACT:
The United States is indisputably undergoing a financial crisis. Here we examine four claims about the way the financial crisis is affecting the economy as a whole and argue that all four claims are myths. Conventional analyses of the financial crisis focus on interest rate spreads. We argue that such analyses may lead to mistaken inferences about the real costs of borrowing and argue
that, during financial crises, variations in the levels of nominal interest rates might lead to better inferences about variations in the real costs of borrowing.
*the paper is far more innaresting than the bland abstract.
link

Posted by: Tangerine | Oct 28 2008 18:04 utc | 11

@10 – ralphieboy – I checked the quoted interest rates and conditions before posting this one.
The 3.99% is real if you want to borrow for one years and have good credit-ratings and high, steady income.
The 5.15% is real if you want to lend for one year fixed.
These offers are not pure marketing.
If I had steady income (I currently have, as consultant, in average good to high, but quite varying income) to borrow at 3.99% and to lend at 5.15% would be a real possibility for me.
The borrowing rates get higher with lower income of course but still – I don’t think that the Citibank is making a deal here. How can they be profitable with this?

Posted by: b | Oct 28 2008 20:24 utc | 12

Doesn’t the magic of fractional reserves comes into play here? Banks make their money on *interest*, not deposits.
Rich guy A deposits 100,000 into Citi for a year.
At the end of the year he has 105,150.
Citi is out 5,150.
But during that year, Citi lends out his 100,000 deposit ten times (assuming fractional reserve requirements of 10:1, in practice they are even more generous).
They each repay 104,000, including the interest.
Citi keeps all the interest payments. They are up 40,000.
Net 35,000 on every 100,000 deposit.

Posted by: deodand | Oct 28 2008 21:10 utc | 13

deodand,
I don’t think so. If I understand Fractional-reserve banking correctly, the banks create about 900 dollars extra on each 100 dollar note if the reserve requirement is 10%. But they do so through repeated borrowings and deposits of the same bill.
So while they do create money that are lent out, they do so by that money being reposited, and then they have to pay interest on that money to. In the end for every 100 dollar bill that comes from the federal reserve, there can exist 900 dollar lent out, 100 dollar as reserve and 1000 dollar as deposits. So it only makes it worse for the bank that has to pay 51.50 in interest and gets (900*0,0399=) 35.91 in interest payments. Not counting the risk that some of their customers fail to pay their interest payments.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Oct 29 2008 2:26 utc | 14

Be wary of unstated fees. Bank of America offered me a credit card with 0% interest for a year on $18K line of credit; but when I wrote a check to pay off another loan I discovered a 3% “transfer fee” disclosed in small gray print on the back as “there may at times be a transfer fee on some transactions”.

Posted by: andrey | Oct 29 2008 3:14 utc | 15

Note: b, this is an addendum to a similar post I accidentally posted in your Volkswagen Shorts Get Run Over, it fits better here instead, your welcome to delete the other.
Did people who knew about secret, CIA-led coups use that information to game the stock market?
As someone on another forum says, paraphrasing, “i think this is one of the most important things i have read in many years of reading about politics/economics/Presidential doctrines…” However, if you follow Fisman’s line and apply it to the contemporary picture, it’s like a kick in the head. A can of worms, that could very well be dangerous, if not deadly.
In other words, Fisman has pointed to a path, and I suspect, it would take a demigod to follow it or a warrior who is not afraid to die. A hero’s journey, one in which the protagonist[‘s] very well may not coming back from. Sorta like a Gary Webb, Fisman has cracked a fissure to a monomyth. A call to an adventure.
Who will step up and save us?
NO ONE, we have to save ourselves.
Kafka was wrong, in that he wrote, “The Messiah will come only when he is no longer needed.” I don’t know about you, but I can’t wait that long. We are they ones we have been waiting for. We need an army of Gary Webb’s, because they can’t take us all out. One truth teller can be taken down, however a herd of us stands a chance. Thoreau said, “There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root” perhaps it should be a thousand striking the root.
Policies are judged by their consequences, but crusades are judged by how good they make the crusaders feel.” ~ Thomas Sowell

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 29 2008 3:19 utc | 16

If you think there is not a strand that weaves through what I am about what I just posted above #16 and the following you are wrong. I do not mean that with malice, snark nor arrogance. The issues we deal w/here at MOA are a tapestry. It is military pedagogy that creates division, particularism, compartmentalization. It isn’t well known, but, many MOA’s may get it.
Since the seventies the CIA has incrementally taken over our universities, a proxy war on the left, (perhaps, Malooga would add to the discussion of the annihilation of the left in America) each decade it has subjugated and herded liberal education into a ideological blind alley, step by nefarious step it has frog marched us into it’s synthetic mimesis and paraphasia, and we are nearly reaching their simulacrum plantation. The vast majority of the herd is in the pen. They are ready to slam the gates shut to The Panopticon, after first strike.
I have said numerous times that what is going on is not merely a war, but a two front war, the one abroad, and one in the homeland (to use their term).
An ideological war. Proprietary Captitalism.
MOA has done an excellent job of mapping the war over there, w/ Bernhard’s and others, for example, Alamet’s excellent analysis of the M.E., b reals, Africom, Tangerine’s and Debs is Dead’s, South pacific, Monolycus American expat coverage of the Asia realm, Tantalus’s, ralphieboy’s, askod UK/Expat perspective, remembereringgiap’s always thoughtful and historic knowledge of the beast and passionate discourse and many, many others, fine thoughts, ideals and commentary.
However, MOA has been slack in it’s examination of the war being waged on the “American people” (outside of the economic subjugation). The war on the very fabric of it’s government, perhaps, with good reason. With out leaving anyone out, apologies in advance if I do, and I will only because of my ignorance of the many American citizens whom post here, I know of anna missed, annie, beq, Malooga, are citizens of America, but not clear on whom else is. But I digress. I, from the beginning, have tried to report, cover, what have you, the story from within the beast, as the aforementioned have too. So I can only speak for myself, when I say, I have failed. The light in the belly is growing weaker. They, the rulers, have nearly won the war of the homeland. They have destroyed America (the ideal) from within, collectively we have been every bit as traumatized as other victims, not so much physically as psychically. The Great American experiment, the social contract is over.
How will he tell the people?
The Flexible Floor Doctrine: ( Nuclear Thermal Monarchy)

Elaine Scarry, Walter M. Cabot Professor of Aesthetics and the General Theory of Value at Harvard University, speaks on the U.S. Constitution in relation to war and the social contract. This is the third lecture of a four-part series.
This four-part lecture series curated by Sam Haselby, Visiting Professor, and co-sponsored by the Leonard and Louise Riggio Writing and Democracy Program, the New School Writing Program, and Eugene Lang College The New School for Liberal Arts aims to deepen public understanding and raise critical awareness of this charter document of the United States by bringing three of the country’s leading scholars of law, history, and literature and one of America’s outstanding human rights activists to address the topic of the Constitution in Crisis

Run time: 1:11:27 Regardless of her monotone voice and numerous verbal faux pas here, Elaine Scarry is a known for her interpretive daring and interesting erudite philosophy. She has for decades scrutinized torture as an instrument of state-sanctioned policy, a preoccupation that grew out of her 1985 monograph The Body in Pain. She knows what she speaks of wrt collective trauma of humankind. It would be wise to mind-walk with her.
Put on yer thinking caps fellers…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 29 2008 7:08 utc | 17

US plans separate nuclear command

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 29 2008 7:18 utc | 18

@Uncle – @18 – that is a good move. The Strategic Air Command was for a long time responsible for U.S. strategic nukes. When the Air Force took over that responsibility it screwed up and flew nukes around without knowing it. Putting SAC back together is the sane answer.

Posted by: b | Oct 29 2008 10:40 utc | 19

uncle- thank you for the fisman link on the paper coups, corporations, and classified information. will have to diget it offline. your posts & this topic provide much to contemplate.

Posted by: b real | Oct 29 2008 17:53 utc | 20

@Uncle $cam – #17
I’m only an occasional participant in the discussion here, but I am an American in the UnitedStatesian sense. As a child, I learned about the dream/fantasy/ideal of a self-governing Republic of citizens, and found it inspiring. I had already learned the Pledge of Allegiance before “under God” was shoehorned into it. (I am Hillary Clinton’s age, in other words.)
I’m a generation younger than Kurt Vonnegut, but I read most of what he wrote, some of it multiple times. Some people love Vonnegut because he’s so cynical – but I love him because he’s so idealistic. KV, upon whom be peace, was very pessimistic at the end – he said that the America his generation dreamed of, that would live up to its high ideals, that came through the Depression and defeated Fascism in World War II –
http://tinyurl.com/ywjcdl
– that dream of a humane and reasonable nation can NEVER come true, because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
But maybe Kurt was wrong – I hope so. And certainly part of what may make him wrong is the fact that all things come into being, wax, wane, and fade away – and America’s power over the rest of the human race is fading. The tremendous power to bribe and threaten others never translated into the power to make whole nations obey, because the power to destroy is not the same as the power to control. The ruling class of the MICFiC*, with their personal experience of disemploying anyone insufficiently deferential or profitable, cannot understand this, unfortunately.
*MICFiC – Military Industrial Financial Corporate Media Complex – a conspiracy to use, abuse, and confuse the people, to “milk, shear, and slaughter the sheeple”, figuratively speaking – except the slaughter is literal.
I would distinguish the corruption of the Ruling Class from the corruption of the populace. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty, and that’s just too much work. The Founders had read Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War, and knew how Rome had gone from Republic to Empire. If the Dream of America is as dead as Vonnegut thought, it is due not only to the corruption of the rulers, but to the corruption of the ruled. Not only are they woefully ignorant, too many are willfully so. And the Dream of America – the enlightenment ideal of informed citizens participating in “government of, by, and for the people” – is dead because the people are dreaming The American Dream – comfortable, easy, OK, big TV screens to watch soap operas and sports contests on, cheap gas to drive our cars, etc.
Civic virtue’s decline has happened many times, so we cannot lay all the blame at the feet of the mass-media hypnotized consumer society.
But maybe The Dream of America has always been an illusion. It is sort of discouraging to realize that from the beginning the economic basis of the colony of Virginia, Mother of Presidents, was exporting an addictive and deadly drug – tobacco – and that New Englanders owed much of their prosperity to the slave trade which supplied an essential factor of production to the Southern Planters. And of course the history of Manifest Destiny is of one of genocide of the original inhabitants (although their southern cousins are reclaiming the country to some extent – they speak Spanish now, but their faces are Mayan, not Iberian.)
Something good may happen soon – maybe next week, maybe next June. The last words in Howard Zinn’s cartoon History of American Empire (which I will give a copy of to my niece as she turns 12 next month) are adapted from his September 2004 article “The Optimism of uncertainty.”

To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. What we choose to emphasize in this complex history will determine our lives. If we see only the worst, it destroys our capacity to do something. If we remember those times and places–and there are so many–where people have behaved magnificently, this gives us the energy to act, and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction. And if we do act, in however small a way, we don’t have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.

http://tinyurl.com/6nw6qx

Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. | Oct 29 2008 18:46 utc | 21

B@19
way off topic but wanted to address this.
SAC was part of the Air Force and as you say probably needs to be stood up again. It was a very focused organization with strict compliance to the rules. Control freaks really liked that command, it was inflexible and nothing was ever done that did not conform to regulations. TAC on the other hand was out flying and fighting and generally doing stuff as opposed to sitting on alert waiting for the klaxon to go off.
When the threat from the USSR seemed to subside, AF planners looked at a huge organization that was not being utilized fully, had a lot of redundancy and saw a way to cut costs. That is when they rolled SAC and TAC into the Air Combat Command.
What happened then is that the guys doing the flying and fighting and all the other operational stuff found themselves in charge of nuclear arsenals that they only considered ordinance to be used in some future date when the shit hit the fan. They cared little for the extraordinarily boring rules and regulations and constant inspections required to properly maintain special weapons. They became complacent and focused on much more pressing daily operations. The Air Force as well as other services has seen reductions in manning but little reduction in mission. The inadvertant transfer of 5 live weapons across the country was a very loud wakeup call that was heard clearly by the senior leadership.
What it appears they are doing now is to revert to the structure they had before. I think it should go further and take care of the weapons the Navy and Army has too but that just aint ever gonna happen.

Posted by: dan of steele | Oct 29 2008 20:20 utc | 22

The Dashed Dreams of Wall Street Wives

In today’s economic turmoil, won’t someone please think of all the Wall Street wives?
There’s a little (okay a lot) of schadenfreude going on about Wall Street, but I still find this article by Geraldine Baum for the Los Angeles Times about dashed dreams of Wall Street wives very interesting:
Fran Alvarez rarely spent lavishly, as she describes it, during the five years her husband, Carlos, 43, was making $250,000 writing software programs for Credit Suisse. He will be earning half that in his new job away from Wall Street. It was either that or sell the house with its $3,000 monthly mortgage.
At 41, Fran is the caretaker of their daughters, Gabriella, 6, and Isabella, 4. In the last five months she has gone back to her daughter-of-a-mechanic mentality. She canceled magazine subscriptions and expensive cable — and stopped buying soft toilet paper.
“Growing up, my mom used to buy the scratchiest toilet paper, and when we complained she would say, “When you get your own job, you buy the expensive type,’ ” Fran says. “Well, we’re back to the scratchy stuff.”

Aww, I just feel so bad for em…lmao!

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 30 2008 3:44 utc | 23

The continuing war on the American people goes on despite the thirty minute infomercials and hopegnosis:
Peter Dale Scott and former Democratic Party Congressman Dan Hamburg discuss “COG” – Continuity of Government plans by the George Walker Bush administration, and previous administrations. Recorded August 8, 2008

Part 2
This is deep politics, not conspiracy, make of it what you will. But of those whom do not dismiss it, keep in mind my #16 and other posts here in regards also… This game has been going on a long time.
This all ties together…

The nine biggest US banks aren’t using $125 billion in federal bailout money to make loans. They’re going to use taxpayer dollars to buy other banks.
That’s not what we were led to believe when Henry Paulson forced the nine banks to take the money. Turns out the banks could do as they wished with the money.
What about small banks? We seem to have forgotten about the thousands of local, community banks. They have functioned well in the crisis, and reports suggest that they have even benefitted.
A veteran banker who works for one of the big US banks says it’s time we did something to help them. Smaller banks, he says, are part of the community and have a better understanding of who their customers are.
“If we make the bailout funds available to the community bankers, I promise they will know what to do with the money. They will lend it and they will make prudent lending decisions, based on direct and comprehensive knowledge of the borrower. So what are we waiting for?”
The big banks — BofA, Citibank, JPMorgan — aren’t lending because they don’t know their customers. They have depersonalized lending by relying on inaccurate credit scoring to make loans. Sometimes lenders don’t even do that. This got the banks into trouble. They wound up with toxic assets of dubious value on their balance sheets.
It seems that this depersonalization goes to the heart of the global financial crisis. In finance, it’s sometimes referred to as the “principal-agent problem.” It means looking at numbers instead of people.

From here.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 30 2008 21:03 utc | 24

From the article:

Unfortunately, there are limits to what these stock-market forensics can uncover. When the researchers contacted the Securities and Exchange Commission to find out who was trading on these days, they learned that there are limits to what the Freedom of Information Act could provide. So, we can’t pin the apparent insider trading on anyone in particular.

Conspiracy theorists will no doubt be interested in what happened to Halliburton stock on days when less-public meetings took place.

There are limits to what the Freedom of Information Act [can] provide“.
Footnote #130: “A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 [2001].”
STUDY LINK: Coups,Corporations,and Classi÷edInformation (PDF)
economic gangsters, ECONOMIC TERRORISM.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 30 2008 21:27 utc | 25

Is This America?

I respectfully disagree with Ben Friedman. Our liberties are by no means safe and our status as a real constitutional Republic is beyond fragile. On October 1, 2008, President Bush deployed the First Brigade of the Third Infantry Division — three to four thousand battle-hardened warriors — to…somewhere in the United States. Their original stated mission according to Army Times was ‘crowd control’ and ‘subduing unruly individuals.’ They have lethal and nonlethal technologies and tanks. After some questions were raised — not, I note, by anyone in the mainstream media, which has bizarrely ignored this massive subversion of 200 years of our having been protected by the 1807 Insurrection Act and by 1879’s Posse Comitatus from being policed at home by military forces — the Northcom PR people changed the stated goal of the mission to ‘protecting communities affected by weapons of mass destruction.’ Still, I would have thought, a story — and so thank the hundreds of citizens who are contacting me trying to find out more. For those commentators who do not yet think our liberties are at risk, I would direct their attention to the use of military forces as a source of intimidation of voters in a closely held election that is characteristic of closing societies around the world.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 30 2008 21:56 utc | 26

IMF chief to propose new regulation strategy

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 30 2008 22:28 utc | 27

Uncle $cam, to add to your # 27, Der Spiegel says IMF will be conducting an assessment of the US financial system.

(snip)
Officials with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) have informed Bernanke about a plan that would have been unheard-of in the past: a general examination of the US financial system. The IMF’s board of directors has ruled that a so-called Financial Sector Assessment Program (FSAP) is to be carried out in the United States. It is nothing less than an X-ray of the entire US financial system.
As part of the assessment, the Fed, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), the major investment banks, mortgage banks and hedge funds will be asked to hand over confidential documents to the IMF team. They will be required to answer the questions they are asked during interviews. Their databases will be subjected to so-called stress tests — worst-case scenarios designed to simulate the broader effects of failures of other major financial institutions or a continuing decline of the dollar.
Under its bylaws, the IMF is charged with the supervision of the international monetary system. Roughly two-thirds of IMF members — but never the United States — have already endured this painful procedure.
For seven years, US President George W. Bush refused to allow the IMF to conduct its assessment. Even now, he has only given the IMF board his consent under one important condition. The review can begin in Bush’s last year in office, but it may not be completed until he has left the White House.
(snip)

Posted by: Alamet | Oct 30 2008 23:18 utc | 28

skod @ #14 thinks deodand’s explanation at #13 doesn’t correctly define the fractional banking system. It might be over-simplfied – but these 3.99% credit cards are now everywhere (well, now in Australia) – and I would suspect that banks are not even interested in the 5.5% deposits. Not when the BOJ or your friendly local central bank or government still has free money.
For anyone who has not OD’d on theories, here’s a very lucid account by Karl Denninger of how all this works:- Money, Credit, and Counterfeiting

Posted by: DM | Oct 31 2008 11:37 utc | 29