Exactly.Great observation Debs is dead!

Posted by: vbo | Sep 27 2008 10:35 utc | 1

Fine for the negatives, Debs is Dead....

Any positives?....

(As an aging rhetorician, my taste inclines toward "argument by concession".)

Posted by: alabama | Sep 27 2008 11:17 utc | 2

in Canada the average life expectancy is nearly 10 years longer...

Correct! If by saying "nearly 10 years", you actually mean between 2.5 and 3 years.

Posted by: Marek Bage | Sep 27 2008 12:31 utc | 3

A sad, sad situation indeed. But under a controlled press and a bought and paid for Congress what else do you expect ? Individuality ? So long as Amerikan elections are decided by who has the most funding - to pay for the best publicity - only the wealthy and their puppets can win.Short of a revolution to drive the oligarchs out, the appointment of an Amerikan Putin is a pipe dream. The masses will even pay the oligarchs another billion of their own money to sustain the system, frightened that it might "break down". Such utter stupidity has its own rewards. Why not sit back and enjoy it, and a finger to the approbation of the rest of the world who are only jealous that they cannot join the Amerikan dream.

Posted by: gordon | Sep 27 2008 12:55 utc | 4

There is one issue where there is room to fit a whole carton of Marlboros between the candidates: sex education, access to contracetption and abortion rights.

McCain is obviously out to scupper Roe vs. Wade and anything else that "promotes promiscuity" (in the eyes of his conservative constituency) in any manner he can, legally, administratively or practically.

Remember that there was a serious move on the part of conservative Christians to field their own candidate if McCain got in because they found his policies on moral issues too liberal for their tastes.

The Sarah Palin nomination is proof of how far they have been able to get his arm up his back on this issue. And the sore one at that.

If he has to, he will attempt to pass a "human-rights-begin-at-the-moment-of-conception" act and push it that way. And if Sarah gets her way, swhe would follow it with an "evey-sperm-is-sacred" act which will institute mandatory cast-iron chastity jockstraps for any young man caught spilling seed.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Sep 27 2008 13:03 utc | 5

Positives Alabama?
Well, I am free to offer my community 'barefoot technology' classes teaching solar, food production, and bike mechanics. Free to move about. And free to participate in protests. Dharna. That is a positive compared to some countries, isn't it? Imagine being in Burma today!

I'm not sure there is much else left for many of us.
See this bbc article on homeless middleclass women in California: car sleeping

Posted by: Jake | Sep 27 2008 13:51 utc | 6

watching that debate last night was like watching a mean old drunk batter a baby. it wa ugly to behold & had all the rhetorical interest of watching a crime happen before your eyes

i do not know what positives can be drawn from that grotesque spectacle

annie suggest the polls are in favour of obama - perhaps there is more heart in the belly of the beast than we have any right to expect

but as debs makes clear - it was war, war & more war

unfortunately, we are all going to live the results of such ugliness - there must have been tears in they eyes of the statue of james meredith & in the eyes of mr meredith

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 27 2008 14:39 utc | 7

Come on. Remember, how can we ask to be taken seriously around here when we point to polls to support our prejudices?

I, for one, don't even pay attention to pols. They are deceptive devices used to sway public opinion, not to inform, and are supportive of nothing more than that.

Posted by: Polish Girl | Sep 27 2008 14:56 utc | 8

I can't believe people watch these debates or even discuss them. It is all a dog and pony show. Obama will win this election, and not a lot of positive change will be the result.

Posted by: Susan | Sep 27 2008 15:26 utc | 9

@ Marek Bage

Perhaps 10 years is stretching it a bit, however according to our own CIA the US is in 46th place compared to Canada in 8th

Posted by: dan of steele | Sep 27 2008 16:09 utc | 10

DOS,

America is still wrapped up in the Reagan-era ideology that the Free Market can do anything and everything better than any government agency.

But we have seen again and again that the vaunted Free Market is not at all the ideal mechanism for regulating certain key matters, such as maintaining infrastructure or conserving national resources.

And we must come to realize that public health is a national resource that must be cared for. As is public education. It is fine when market mechanisms can be employed to smooth operations, but these are issues that have to be divorced from bottom-line-profit mentality.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Sep 27 2008 16:20 utc | 11

I concur wiht Ralphieboy re: reproductive rights.

And if the statistic that one of every four pregnancies ends in abortion,
this difference in the platforms of the candidates matters.

I don't think that young women have any awareness of what reproductive life was like during the pre-Roe days.
They may find out.

Posted by: FIghting Bob | Sep 27 2008 16:21 utc | 12

Our pain is your pain, http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/mar2008/newz-m24.shtml>m8

Posted by: slothrop | Sep 27 2008 16:25 utc | 13

From yesterday's debate:

LEHRER: .. Senator McCain, what is your reading on the threat to Iran right now to the security of the United States?

MCCAIN: My reading of the threat from Iran is that if Iran acquires nuclear weapons, it is an existential threat to the State of Israel and to other countries in the region because the other countries in the region will feel compelling requirement to acquire nuclear weapons as well.yesterday
...

OBAMA: ... Senator McCain is absolutely right, we cannot tolerate a nuclear Iran. It would be a game changer. Not only would it threaten Israel, a country that is our stalwart ally, but it would also create an environment in which you could set off an arms race in this Middle East. ...

So both don't see Iran as a "threat to the US" ...

Mr. Obama, please explain why it is not Israel's nuclear weapon arsenal that "could set off an arms race in this Middle East."

Posted by: b | Sep 27 2008 16:28 utc | 14

Mr. Obama, please explain why it is not Israel's nuclear weapon arsenal that "could set off an arms race in this Middle East."

aipac's got him by the balls.

Posted by: annie | Sep 27 2008 17:30 utc | 15

Why not sit back and enjoy it, and a finger to the approbation of the rest of the world who are only jealous that they cannot join the Amerikan dream.

oh please. i have a sneaking suspicion the rest of the world ain't so jealous.

So long as Amerikan elections are decided by who has the most funding - to pay for the best publicity -

all the best publicity in the world can't pull off what diebold can, but they can sure as hell cover it up.

Posted by: annie | Sep 27 2008 17:42 utc | 16

speaking of funding to pay for the best publicity (gordon #4), has everyone heard about the zionist freakazoid who has the chutzpah to distribute (via an all to willing msm) the anti islam propaganda dvd? circulation of 28 million !!! he's no slouch.

now that's influence ain't it gordon?

Tom Trento, who heads www.watchobsession.org, the group that distributed the movie at the Democratic and Republican parties’ nominating conventions, told JewsOnFirst that their goal is to awaken the country…before the election so everyone can “see the insidious nature of radical Islam.” Trento said, his group’s website then directs viewers of the video to “a scorecard that shows how elected officials have voted” on terrorism-related issues so they can decide “how they can intelligently vote” in November.

nobody is supposed to talk about the ethnic persuasion driving this jewish fear campaign pervading our national elections, foreign policy, american culture..

NEW EXCITING JOB OPPORTUNITIES AT AISH HATORAH ……………………..

1. ONLINE ACTIVISM FACILITATOR: NY, JERUSALEM OR HOME-BASED

The Clarion Fund - a new organization dedicated to educating people about the threat of radical Islam - is seeking to hire an Activism Facilitator for a new website-based project.

they've got the bucks to infiltrate websites all over the globe w/their zionist soldiers for israel's best interests.

one would think with BOTH candidates holding their ankles for israel they could relax their demonizing but no. never, the war on terror must go on. this election is a minor bleep. until the entire middle east is ripe for the picking, be it new map or resources or slaves or whatever, it won't be over. ever.

it makes me want to barf.

Posted by: annie | Sep 27 2008 18:56 utc | 17

Great post debs, I pity the scapegoats at the end of all this because it will probably be all of us.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Sep 27 2008 19:23 utc | 18

I wasn't clear enough, some have missed the point. This isn't about amerika is better or worse than other places or, amerika is evil. It is about the fact that there are very real issues that absorb most of the executive's time and energy, yet they weren't debated meaningfully. The range of alternatives is too limited.
Even if there is a huge difference between what each side says on reproductive rights they won't do much differently, firstly because they can't. Secondly because they don't want to. A huge proportion of amerikans hold strong opinions one way or the other. One side always votes dem, the other side rethug. Pols aren't going to resolve that issue to either sides satisfaction especially not their own side. To do so would be to destroy the party glue. Even born again shrub with his tame supremes and both rethug houses never created the total state of reproductive repression his supporters wanted. To have done so would have had his working class support base free to worry about economic issues where their opinions prolly don't mesh with his elite mates' desires.
The only viable way around the reproductive rights catch 22 is to refuse to let pols crank that handle. Then when the issue has ceased to be so divisive and ripe for exploitation, then work together as a community to resolve it.
I know that isn't what many want to hear. They want to see the xtian assholes defeated and shrieking for mercy after they recognise how wrong they were, but the people that want that, really wouldn't like the means that would have to be used to get it.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Sep 27 2008 19:51 utc | 19

Another commentator (Bob Herbert) calls for http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/opinion/27herbert.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=opinion&adxnnlx=1222545725-zQMlmhE6czvywlk3XM3Gag>Palin to leave the republican ticket. He should have never picked her, he should have dumped her immediately after her baggage became apparent, everyday he keeps her the albatross around his neck becomes bigger and bigger - up until the weight becomes so huge the old fart simply keels over and eats the dirt.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 27 2008 20:21 utc | 20

The institutional pretensions of the political "center" require official obeisance from an ostensible challenger like Obama. So, if he is "progressive," he needs to keep it to himself. And, really, ask yourself, has there ever been a more depthless cipher to run for president than Obama?

All I know is that, if he really is progressive, 90% of the shit he said last night better be hokum for hoipolloi.

Posted by: slothrop | Sep 27 2008 20:34 utc | 21

A Crash would probably shock millions of Americans out of their complacency. Such an economic meltdown would turn most young people's hair prematurely gray, and finish off a lot of us old Boomers, too. Those with heart will make some inquiries then. But if the engine of the imperial US military keeps ticking over, as it does today, so many others will die.

On the the other hand, such a bitter result will cause global repercussions, as was the case in the 1930's Depression.

But those who are convinced that Election 2008 is completely pointless, have not been paying the required attention to the gutteral sounds of fascism which popped up from time to time at the Republican convention, and which also reflected rather ominously in the speeches of Romney and Huckabee.

Huckabee's gut-churning homily about the teacher who brought students into a classroom without school desks, and asked them to explain what must be done to earn the right for them to have desks, who therefor had paid for their privilege of learning. When none could guess the answer, the teacher finally had veterans in military uniform bring in the desks one by one.

The case made by Huckabee is that American children owe their education and everything else to the military.

The military is predominantly the force behind everything in my country, the fingers pulling the wires of our figureheads. The apparatus around McCain and Palin is striking in its vulgarity and its loutish and blunt behavior. The polls, if we must refer to them, tell us that 80 percent of Americans believe the country is on the wrong track. Obama and the democrats, though imperfect instruments, are still preferable to the scaffold of fascism and brute militarism that the republicans are in such a hurry to erect.

If you happened to see video of the arrest of Amy Goodman and her colleagues in Minneapolis, or have read the accounts of pre-emptive raids by militarized police, who entered people's homes with weapons drawn, to discourage political assembly and the distribution of placards and leaflets, you have a better idea of the new regime of domestic intimidation and repression.

Posted by: Copeland | Sep 27 2008 21:01 utc | 22

sloth, has there ever been a more depthless cipher to run for president than Obama?

i would wager a round on the house he has more depth than the current prez.

make it 2 rounds.

copeland, But those who are convinced that Election 2008 is completely pointless, have not been paying the required attention to the gutteral sounds of fascism

this economic meltdown is a fast track trajectory, regardless of who wins the election. 'bailout' or not, this entire fiasco w/its military/security/spy industry 'obligations' sucks.

Obama and the democrats, though imperfect instruments, are still preferable to the scaffold of fascism and brute militarism that the republicans are in such a hurry to erect.

i won't argue w/this. when you say 'the scaffold' are you referring to the overt non apologetic militaristic form the gop takes on, or the end result? because it seems the country is in deep in this direction (since after patriot act/milton friedman economics) regardless of which party has the reins. doesn't it?

debs It is about the fact that there are very real issues that absorb most of the executive's time and energy, yet they weren't debated meaningfully. The range of alternatives is too limited.

it's as if the pressures on the leaders to carry out these foreign policy demands of the ptb result w/ domestic issues left to starve or thrown to the wayside. the overwhelming issues in propaganda is terror and islam. scaring people over the economy may not work because we are likely headed for a disaster whichever way we turn. only the privatization of the middle east can solve that issue, not for the american public, but for those who want the spoils. therefore any alternative to solve the energy crisis other than thru foreign intervention will never be enough to quench the thirst of foreign control. the only way to world domination is thru the military.

Posted by: annie | Sep 27 2008 21:37 utc | 23

annie

my forebodings are always dark but they are getting darker

they have broken the cardinal rule of all fascists - don't mention the catastrophe - whhen moscow was defended & stalingrad liberated - the german people knew nothing & their govt did not want them to even glimpse at the coming catastrophe, so it was with mussolini & so it has been with dictatorships all over the worl - you keep a screen between the people & the catastrophe is coming

what is happening in america today is that you view the plain panic in the govt, its functionaries & especially its shills in the media. it's a hoot just watching the media these day - they all have caca in their pants & frocks & you can smell them a mile off

it is what it appears to be - a catastrophe - & at the same time a chance within certain elements of the elite to concentrate their wealth & power. as naomi klein points out quite clearly - the catastrophe & the concentration are not mutually exclusive

given the nature of things - the paranthetic way the 'electoral' campaign is going with its mad frolics - palin et al - it seems to have no importance at all - or quite simply they will like mccains campaign be 'suspended' - there is enough space within the patriot acts to make that a considered possibility. i would not put anything past these creeps & if there are a people that feel that sarah palin can see russia from her kitchen window - then they'll believe anything - because they have no choice

it is fear & fear alone that has becom the decisive factor

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 27 2008 22:23 utc | 24

paul human that great humanist in the tradition of paul robeson, harry belafonte & others - has a special resonance today

if america is anything it is hud - that magnificent work of martin ritt

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 27 2008 22:26 utc | 25

r'giap, a little something for you. i heard from a friend that crossed the bridge yesterday there were thousands in attendance, but this is the only msm report filed on google.. you probably won't hear about it in france.

Nurses Rally on Golden Gate Bridge

SAN FRANCISCO -- More than a thousand nurses marched across Golden Gate Bridge on Friday, calling for universal health care coverage. The nurses were from 20 states representing the California Nurses Association and its sister organization, the National Nurses Organizing Committee.

Many nurses said they frequently see patients without health insurance avoiding medical care. They said those patients then end up in county hospital emergency rooms at taxpayers' expense.

The nurses rallied in support of a bill in Congress, HR676, which proposes to expand Medicare benefits and would guarantee health care through a single payer system. Supporters of the bill say with the country facing a financial crisis, it is a right time to push for universal health care.

"If we're really worried about the financial state of the country, we can't be competitive in the global marketplace when it costs our businesses so much money to provide health care," said Geri Jenkins, a registered nurse and member of the California Nurses Association.

Today's march was followed by a rally at Crissy Field.

Many of the nurses later gathered for a large demonstration at the offices of the California Pacific Medical Center. Protesters said they are upset at the slow pace of their contract negotiations with Sutter Health administrators.

Posted by: annie | Sep 27 2008 22:59 utc | 26

Sad to see that the level of analysis here remains at that of Tom Friedman, but with an ostensible "leftist" flavoring. The world is flat, there is no difference between fascism and social democracy, or war and peace, or torture and not torture.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 27 2008 23:59 utc | 27

for you - citizen k & yr pompous postures

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 28 2008 0:13 utc | 28

@ annie it seems to me that the scare tactics over the economy come from a very different place than the terra scare.
GWOT was controlled, deliberate cranking of fear to win electoral advatange. Implosion of financial infrstructure, as we saw with McCain's on again off again whitehouse/debate/ bailout, the methodology is completely ad hoc. It has come from pols and their backers who are scared and confused themselves.

They want the government to rescue them in a way they have always belittled others for wanting and these guys aren't even close to losing access to food and shelter unlike the peeps they have successfully kept outta the trough for so long.

If amerikans just give it more of the same ie picking Obama because he is the lesser of two evils (which he mostly is) then amerikans should also expect that although the ptb didn't control much less want the current crisis, they will end up with control of one bank (JPMorgan Chase) that controls such a large chunk of amerikan and global economic activity that political power is lost.
A historic parallel. No one wanted the great depression; many amongst the elites were damaged by it. Although usually 2nd and 3rd generation elites who had taken their eyes off the ball. By the time the depression ended, most of the second and 3rd generation amerikans who settled the mid west and west had lost their birthright ie the chunks of land that their parents or grandparents had carved out from the wilderness (yep I'd be the first to abhor the immorality of that initial homesteading but when the land was lost it wasn't restored to the original owners or even to the national estate), were grabbed by the smart members of the elites who waited for banks to foreclose, the banks to go broke then their bank took over the broke bank. That was one of the most important time and place points on the amerikan continuum, where huge consolidation of amerika's wealth from the many into the hands of the few, occurred.
The current 'disaster' seems headed the same way.
Working class home ownership will become extinct, middle class home ownership much reduced.

There won't be a mass uprising to stop monopoly control of every facet of amerika's economy. The two halves of the amerikan empire party are trying to make sure of that.

How can Obama even pretend he cares about the common man when he refuses to engage on this issue in the most basic terms? At least McCain doesn't pretend to stand for other than the rich greedy elites - his message is the usual great american dream lie "work hard and you too can join the elite"
Obama's message is that he will fix these problems (the economy, amerika's need to kill unwhite people who own something amerika wants, teen age pregnancy). Obama proposes 'solutions' which are nothing of the sort, at best they will provide a pyrrhic victory and the problem will remain.

Amerika's political structure is such that any 'legal' way through this mess must come from within the dems or rethugs. If Obama stood up and said some of the things about the murder and theft in africa and the Mid East, the destruction of a way of life for ordinary amerikans, or the need to put limits on corporate power, he would increase the odds of a McCain victory, but the debate on these issues would also have moved in a way it hasn't for decades (thanks to the well documented ratchet effect - tip o the hat to Uncle $cam)

In other words a major empire party candidate giving voice to these issues during the prez campaign would have greater long term positive impact on amerika than victory for a deknackered Obama could.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Sep 28 2008 0:21 utc | 29

The agenda being moved forward by the builders of fascism in the US, resembles the layer by layer fitting of scaffolding. Such an agenda has been edging forward for eight years now; and no temporary setback, tactical reversal, grand public relations nightmare, electoral or political fluctuation, or economic emergency seems to set it aside. It's proponents are on a mission, working in the background, mostly out of range of cameras, in secret deliberations. Since Bush/Cheney picked up the pace, the agenda has remained the priority first, last, and always.

When fit into place with all its final touches, it will seem like nothing except the militarization of a society. The people will be impoverished, thrown down the social ladder, stripped of their autonomy, broken down to subservience, treated with indifference as broken soldiers are, and the disabled are; their wives and families discarded, moved about indifferently, separated and marginalized, and left on the street.

And r'giap is right to explain that the catastrophe (the ultimate one) is out in the open:

"it is what it appears to be - a catastrophe - & at the same time a chance within certain elements of the elite to concentrate their wealth & power. as naomi klein points out quite clearly - the catastrophe & the concentration are not mutually exclusive"

Posted by: Copeland | Sep 28 2008 0:26 utc | 30

i'm so impatient with the endless reiterations of false consciousness "analysis". That chewing gum has lost its flavor many decades ago. Yet the jaws still flap.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 28 2008 0:30 utc | 31

In other words a major empire party candidate giving voice to these issues during the prez campaign would have greater long term positive impact on amerika than victory for a deknackered Obama could.

Perhaps it's just that you are missing the subtle ways such issues are being discussed because you don't understand the culture or the language.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 28 2008 0:39 utc | 32

& ck

i'm a little impatient with yr popperian postures - sd as if from a great knowing - which your posts in the past clearly lack

& in any case prof popper aint gonna help you now. you don't need a great deal of analysis to understand the current catastrophe

clearly you are a cultured fellow but you certainly don't need refined analytical skills to see what is happening in front of your eyes

copeland, read the new book on cheney, 'angler' - it articulates in a prose even herr citizen k would respect - what you have posted - the secret dismantlement of what was left of the state. every time david addington appears in its pages (which is quite often) - it is very, very chilling. & no less chilling knowing that addington or a john woo were only dressed up dumbkopfs

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 28 2008 0:54 utc | 33

popper has nothing to do with it. Rather what I see is a clerical refusal to understand the vernacular.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 28 2008 1:07 utc | 34

rg: it's funny that you begin by reproaching my "popperian" heresy and then continue to cite the book about Cheney - a book which utterly shatters the comfortable superiority of "not a cigarette paper between them" leftist orthodoxy. One could have written the exact same "not a cigarette paper" essay on Gore versus Bush - in fact, it is improbable that many nearly identical essays were not written, published, and earnestly discussed. Yet the difference between David Addison and the government Gore would have run is one that has meant something to large numbers of actual human beings.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 28 2008 1:18 utc | 35

And the award for the most inane piece of self deception in a MoA post for the year, goes to . . . . CitizenK for the assertion that Barak Obama is a social democrat.
Social democrats do not wage war. A deliberate war of aggression is the antithesis of social democrat philosophy.
Those who imagine that war is a foreign policy issue and social democrats concern themselves chiefly with domestic politics haven't been paying attention these last 10 years where foreign wars have been used even more obviously than normal as a means of domestic control. Foreign wars are always used as an excuse to oppress domestically.

Of course the issue of war and democracy goes back far further for amerika than shrub or even herbie, his dad. I doubt very much that amerika could have maintained it's insidious, unjust and medieval prison system without the assistance given law'n order types by the deliberately engendered atmosphere of jingo-istic sacrifice that has developed from being almost continuously at war since 1942.
Barak Obama may have seemed to be a social democrat when he first appeared on the amerikan national political scene with his claims that he would stop the illegal invasion of Iraq - although he never actually said that - more like he promised to bring the troops home but omitted to mention he wasn't talking about all the troops.

Even so he was arguing for de-escalation so maybe could be considered to be socially democratic, except once he got in the senate, he voted in support of funding the Iraqi murdering.
Pretty soon it became obvious to most everyone that the only reason that Obama didn't vote for the illegal invasion of Iraq was that he wasn't a member of the senate when the vote was put.
Of course since then much worse. Obama wants to escalate the war in Afghanistan against a nation of rural impoverished people who have never harmed anyone, who just want to be allowed to develop an independant nation free from foreign oppression. And Obama repeatedly affirms his dedication to destroying as much of Palestine, Syria, the Lebanon and Iran as is required to ensure complete subjugation of the people of those nations to the will of the racist police state of Israel.
Obama a social democrat! Simply unbelievable.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Sep 28 2008 1:23 utc | 36

And the award for the most inane piece of self deception in a MoA post for the year, goes to . . . . CitizenK for the assertion that Barak Obama is a social democrat.
Social democrats do not wage war. A deliberate war of aggression is the antithesis of social democrat philosophy.

That's a remarkable bit of news - although you appear to back off from it a bit at the end. Can you give me the operational definition of "social democrat" you are using, since it appears to exclude the European parties that call themselves Social Democrats, not to mention the Israeli Labor party, the Congress Party of India, and the Social Democratic parties of Australia and New Zealand. All of these parties have endorsed, organized, and or contributed to wars.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 28 2008 1:35 utc | 37

debs, annie it seems to me that the scare tactics over the economy come from a very different place than the terra scare.

yes, i was lacking in articulation about my meaning wrt 'propaganda' of islam fear vs the scare of the financial crisis

It has come from pols and their backers who are scared and confused themselves.

yes i can see that. however how could they not see the potential for this thing coming so their confusion is probably limited to how it will be resolved, not how we got in this mess. personally i think there was a general anticipation of a windfall from the privatization of iraq that would hide the massive shift of wealth, or something.

How can Obama even pretend he cares about the common man when he refuses to engage on this issue in the most basic terms?

to a degree i think he does engage on some of those issues, whether he is telling the truth tho, i can't gauge that in this climate. he doesn't get to the core which would be political suicide.

Obama's message is that he will fix these problems (the economy, amerika's need to kill unwhite people who own something amerika wants, teen age pregnancy). Obama proposes 'solutions' which are nothing of the sort, at best they will provide a pyrrhic victory and the problem will remain.

i completely agree under the circumstances wrt this 700 billion. however the timing makes me very suspicious. do you think, do smart people think this dire emergency is not timed pre election to guarentee these agreements/legislation to bind whoever is in office? if there was any kind of confidence by those initiating this action right now, the result would be the same with a new administration/congress (which i think will likely get bluer), wouldn't they put this off until it was not on their (cheney)shift? but what remains true is that obama is playing the game. apparently it is worth whatever risk it poses to his integrity to win, even if it means that win is conditioned on this enslavement and likely no way the perps will go punished just like his fisa vote.

In other words a major empire party candidate giving voice to these issues during the prez campaign would have greater long term positive impact on amerika than victory for a deknackered Obama could.

argh. not sure i agree after what we just went thru the last 8 years. especially if that long term positive impact was accompanied by a mcCain nuclear attack on iran. my problem w/obama (aside from his horrid kowtowing to the WOT/aipac, which is a huge 'aside') is not in his words/ideas for domestic/economic issues, it is the questionability factor of if he would or could carry them out. my guess is he would have to wade into some deep shit during the first term to guarentee his ascension to the second, and only then would he dare take risks, likely at the risk of his own assassination.

either way there's no money to do any of those things now. it was rather glaring the way he wouldn't answer which one of those things he promised he would give up to accommodate this bailout.

Amerika's political structure is such that any 'legal' way through this mess must come from within the dems or rethugs.

don't i know it. i've learned a lot from you over the years and i'm grateful for it. i know in the most essential of circumstances you are correct, however i do draw a line between the organs of the party and the people they represent. i think there is hella more than a cig paper between the constituencies tho sometimes that is very hard to discern from many kos/etc diaries.

thanks debs, copeland and r'giap for engaging my ideas questions.

Posted by: annie | Sep 28 2008 1:59 utc | 38

really, i think the david addingtons & the john yoos, the john boltons & people like them have filtered through successive administration - the difference being they get more stupid, more vulgar, more venal

where once there might have been a delicate mind like a popper you end up today with a luttwak - a caricature of a caricature - & even then the cretins that populate the american enterprise institute are woefully worse

when one of them sd early in this administration that they would 'create their own reality' - you knew that book learning had turned into book burning & the praxis so beloved of reinhard heydrich had come into play

this situation of cretins controlling power is essentially one of the characteristics of late capitalism. shorter & shorter fixes. no vision. absence of ethics(of any kind) - the functionaries that surround obama will not be appreciably different. perhaps a little less mad but even that is not a given

power, or its mechanism need not be mystified. the basis impulses are exactly that - basic

the more profound the crisis - the more transparent the machinery of power

& today, this night it is very crude indeed

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 28 2008 2:07 utc | 39

Citizen K

Perhaps it's just that you are missing the subtle ways such issues are being discussed because you don't understand the culture or the language.

What, in the infinitely unsubtle culture and language of American political speechifying, might Debs be missing? Could it be that I, as a non-native American speaker, have been missing depths and dimensions hitherto unguessed? A hidden syntax of hand movements, perhaps? An exquisite minefield of stress and emphasis? Do tell.

Posted by: Tantalus | Sep 28 2008 3:28 utc | 40

After hearing Obama's toady remarks about Georgia last night, I almost wished McCain would win. (The myth-making of plucky Georgia must mirror Israel in '48.) When you know he knows what the facts are and then hear him say what he says, how can anyone justify supporting him?

And if McCain does win? I'm still in the camp that believes that the sooner this boils over, the better. Rip the bandage off quickly.

Posted by: biklett | Sep 28 2008 5:59 utc | 41

this situation of cretins controlling power is essentially one of the characteristics of late capitalism. shorter & shorter fixes. no vision. absence of ethics(of any kind) - the functionaries that surround obama will not be appreciably different. perhaps a little less mad but even that is not a given

The extent to which McNamera or Jaques Massu were more ethical and had longer term strategies than Addington and Rumsfeld is not at all clear to me. So on one hand, I'm unconvinced of the trajectory you assume exists. On the other hand, as Noam Chomsky and Naomi Klein both argue,there are very serious differences between Obama and McCain.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 28 2008 6:40 utc | 42

And if McCain does win? I'm still in the camp that believes that the sooner this boils over, the better. Rip the bandage off quickly.

Exactly the logic used by supporters of Nixon over Humphrey, or, indeed of Hitler over the SDP.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 28 2008 6:41 utc | 43

What, in the infinitely unsubtle culture and language of American political speechifying, might Debs be missing?

Americans, one and all, proffer their heartfelt sorrow that our political language lacks poetry and depth. We are but crass peasants, lacking in culture, after all.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 28 2008 6:44 utc | 44

I'm sure you can find poetry and depth in your culture Citizen K but then you are being deliberately obtuse.
No one would give a flying fuck about amerikans predilection for poetry if amerikans didn't have a predilection for invading other countries and shooting and bombing the locals until they got what they wanted.
In that tradition you list countries which from time to time have had social democratic parties in government and then try and justify that Obama is a social democrat because those countries have waged aggressive war. Never mind that occurred when other political parties who were prodly not social democrats were in power. Australia and NZ had conservative governments in power during Vietnam and when the labour quasi social dem goverments won election both countries took their troops out of Vietnam.
Tony Bliar expended much effort in taking the english labour party away from the social democratic tradition, creating New Labour, a self proclaimed 'brand' not a political party in the traditional sense, before he hassled and harangued england into Iraq. It cost him his political life and turned him into a nonentity.

NZ had a social democratic party in power at the time of the initial invasion of Iraq so a squad of engineers were sent to Iraq to assist with reconstruction, when it became obvious that amerika was only interested in further destruction of Iraq they came home. One casualty from a vehicle accident was the extent of the caualties from memory. The Australian troops in Iraq lasted until their piss weak social democrat party came to power. Then they came home. Same with Spain.
NZ has a mob of engineers in Bamiyan province of Afghanistan assisting in the repair of the buddhas a hopeless task that won't succeed but they aren't shooting anyone and can hardly be accused of waging war.

Do you get the drift here CitizenK? When amerika goes to war it calls in markers from around the world, markers which shouldn't be honoured but bullies have this way of trying to make the innocent pay for the crimes the bully commits, so sometimes social democrat governments get drawn into some token action, very rarely though. I won't say it hasn't happened but I'm unaware of any true social democrat party initiating any conflict. As I said they mostly concern themselves with domestic matters and war doesn't work if there are too many freedoms at home. Freedom at home is an obssesion with most social democrat parties since the intro-duction of neo-liberal economics. They daren't do anything drastic to the economy so they expend a create deal of energy on personal freedom.
Social democrat parties around the world loudly proclaim that they are not vassals of amerikan foreign policy and as Tony Blair found out and Gordon Brown is finding out, if a self proclaimed social democratic party doesn't distance itself from amerika and wars of aggression it is a dead duck. The voters don't believe it is true to the social democrat tradition and they sack it.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Sep 28 2008 7:47 utc | 45

I'll say this once. Sarah Palin is the cartoon ricochet bullet fired by John McCain that will eventually kill his chances to become the president. Its too late now for him, as she has become a national laughing stalk, to either fire her or have her quit. All other political arguments on the issues, or on the merits of his vision are irrelevant. From now on till the election it's idiocracy in motion and the nation will wake up with Barak Obama as president. What he (Barak) will do is as unclear as the as the fantasy notion of "change" he has been selling. Having worked as a "community activist" and educated as a "constitutional scholar", my guess is that there will be surprises.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 28 2008 9:19 utc | 46

I think, given the economic conditions, what we're looking at is a "shake and bake" FDR.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 28 2008 9:23 utc | 47

Brown and serve.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 28 2008 9:34 utc | 48

here is some poetry and depth for Citizen K.

there are a lot more people like this than you care to admit.

Posted by: dan of steele | Sep 28 2008 10:03 utc | 49

perhaps its a bit of good news that but for the internet, a meltdown of the financial system might have already begun. If as in the past, the public (including Wall Street actors) had only the daily newspapers & tv networks to check-off on, faced with a rising tide of rumors, hysteria, and diminishing confidence, mass panic may well have ensued with irreversible consequences.

Paulson's panic attack seemed pretty real though. If you ever have to walk into the Oval Office looking to game a $700B shakedown, at the very least you want to be able to fake a spontaneous nervous breakdown.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Sep 28 2008 14:47 utc | 50

culture of the highest order

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 28 2008 16:36 utc | 51

Democracy only functions when ppl will vote for what they perceive to be the common good, or their self-interest, or a balance of the two. And the conditions for that make up a long pious, western list: a healthy society, literacy, access to information, rule of law, and so on.

Without all that, people vote for cult leaders, or a member of the tribe, or vote for whom they have to, or randomly, or not at all, it is pretty meaningless. Usually, to ensure the proper outcome the votes are coerced (Saddam), massaged (Saak, 96% of the vote), of fraudulently tallied (Bush), etc. Banana Republics appreciate the use of votes, as do TV adventure shows and beauty contests. The US has surely now joined that league.

The pretense that popular opinion and choice plays a role has been abandoned. (If it was functioning, it would be possible to predict the outcome, which would be a Dem win.) A show of indeterminacy serves as a masquerade - “supremacy of the will of the people” - actually only a small % of citizens, established, who vote, etc.

Participatory systems work in times of stability or, cynically, a bigger pie to be shared. Those days are over for the US. (And others. US emblematic.)

Per capita peak oil is well past, world, fossil fuels are the life blood of the economy, and it has been contracting, the GDP etc. stats. are so much BS. The housing bubble was built on the idea of continuing eco. growth and expansion - ppl could pay, money would come in, houses could be built, marble counters added in, the merry go round would spin merrily.

Yet, the borrowers could not earn more - not in building, in airlines, at Starbucks, as aides in hospitals, on the land, at GM, as teachers, or even secretaries in banks, Gvmt. officials like policemen, etc. etc.

The financial melt down is a result of contraction and recession, not only the other way round. (Plus the scammers who wanted to profit along the way, upping value of real estate...)

Basically, the value of real estate was inflated artificially as a last stab at ‘growth’ - the houses did not grow or get better...but permitted putting big bucks on the books, lending out for return, etc.

Posted by: Tangerine | Sep 28 2008 16:38 utc | 52

anna missed at 46 wrote:

I'll say this once. Sarah Palin is the cartoon ricochet bullet fired by John McCain that will eventually kill his chances to become the president. Its too late now for him, as she has become a national laughing stalk, to either fire her or have her quit.

McC didn’t choose her, had to accept her, - a terrible, horrific pick, he could have won without her (...posted about it before.)

What will happen now is simple.

Either she quits for family reasons, and McC offers her some post in ‘his’ admin: Head Moose Hunter, or In Charge of Abstinence for African Teens or Oil Minister in Tight Relation with Russia! to preserve the celeb TV aura around her, put her in front of the cams, with glasses and gun, etc.

The Palin fired up types will still vote for him, lacking an alternative and agreeing to whatever arrangement. (Some will stay home, yes.)

If not, he loses.

All that under the hypothesis that Uncle Diebold has not yet taken a decision.

Posted by: Tangerine | Sep 28 2008 17:15 utc | 53

Interesting view of the debate from the Russian point:
God bless you America with a wise leader to sleep well past 3 a.m.

Posted by: vbo | Sep 29 2008 14:22 utc | 54

well, i drove by the former herman goering werks in Linz Austria today, a gift of the czech people to the land of Mozart, so I am more than ordinarily suffused with admiration for European culture.

As for Debs, please check on the party affiliation of Mendes-France during the Algerian war or Clement Attlee during the war against Kenyan liberation movements.

if only us americans could match the poetry and depth of a Tony Blair or Angela Merkel speech or even approach the profundity exhibited in the Royale versus Sarkozy contest, I could die happy. Sadly, we are immersed in savagery and cannot share in glory of Europe, except as admiring yokels, gazing in wonder at what we cannot really even understand.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 29 2008 22:17 utc | 55

here is some poetry and depth for Citizen K.

Posted by: dan of steele | Sep 28, 2008 6:03:30 AM | 49

How true. To live in a land like France, where someone like Jean-Marie Le Pen would never get any support or in Austria where it is inconceivable that a Jurgen Heider like moron would attract a single vote. Yet, instead of living in such a paradise of enlightenment, I am condemned to live in Amerika, source of all evil, the land where colonialism, racism, and such stuff was invented. No?

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 29 2008 22:24 utc | 56

Tony Bliar expended much effort in taking the english labour party away from the social democratic tradition, creating New Labour, a self proclaimed 'brand' not a political party in the traditional sense, before he hassled and harangued england into Iraq. It cost him his political life and turned him into a nonentity.

Poor guy. I understand he was not a real social democrat, just as Torquemada was not a real christian.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 29 2008 22:27 utc | 57

well, i drove by the former herman goering werks in Linz Austria today, a gift of the czech people to the land of Mozart, so I am more than ordinarily suffused with admiration for European culture.

Don't sell yourself short. You as an American should feel proud, citizen k: the Nazis invaded Czechoslovakia in trucks built by Ford and General Motors...

Posted by: Tantalus | Sep 29 2008 23:11 utc | 58

ahmadinejad & america

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 29 2008 23:33 utc | 59

Meanwhile...

Voters in Ecuador appear to have approved a new constitution yesterday, guaranteeing rights to clean water, universal healthcare, pensions, and free state-run education through the university level. It also may allow President Rafael Correa to remain in power until 2017. Particularly of note is a world first bill of rights for nature which grants inalienable rights to nature.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 29 2008 23:43 utc | 60

Don't sell yourself short. You as an American should feel proud, citizen k: the Nazis invaded Czechoslovakia in trucks built by Ford and General Motors...

Posted by: Tantalus | Sep 29, 2008 7:11:41 PM | 58

I should have known - we are responsible for Hitler, King Leopold, Clive, the crusades, the Inquisition, and every other moment of glory in European history.

Damned yankee imperialists.

Posted by: citizen k | Oct 4 2008 11:22 utc | 61

citizen k,

your heart just isn't in it anymore. kinda sad to see you being reduced to republican style "but Clinton was worse" debating tactics. You used to be better than that.

Posted by: dan of steele | Oct 4 2008 14:06 utc | 62