Screenshot of LATimes.com,
Aug 30, 8:20am EST
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August 30, 2008
The Georgia Conspiracy
Screenshot of LATimes.com,
Aug 30, 8:20am EST
Comments
What does “Washington” mean in this poll? Is Washigton a monolithic consensus? Is the State Department, the CIA, the Congress and the Executive all one and the same, and they collectively equal a “Washigton” that thinks and acts in Unison? What part did Dennis Kucinich play in this? Maxine Waters? Charles Lewis?
Posted by: Zogby | Aug 30 2008 13:04 utc | 3
It’s a case of cui bono. I’ve added my yes vote. I don’t put anything past Bush and his henchmen anymore. Seems like most of us don’t; the yes’s and maybe’s total 66.3 as of right now.
Posted by: Ensley | Aug 30 2008 13:16 utc | 4
I interpret ‘Washington’ as ‘Washington consensus on foreign policy’ which I believe exists, and is epitomized, on the left side of the aisle, by the likes of John Kerry and Hillary Clinton, and Jimmy Carter, now that I think of it. They may think the Republicans currently in power are crude and ineffective, but I don’t see a substantial gulf in worldview. This is a little pet theory I invented to explain the manner in which Howard Dean was was attacked like some kind of virus by the Washington establishment. Likewise, Obama, but, in addition to being a far more gifted politician, he caught the ‘Washington consensus’ at a weak moment. Gadflys like Dennis Kucinich are far beside the point, and ‘outsiders’ like Obama know they need to be careful what they say if they don’t want to have a ‘scream’ moment like Dean had; a corollary to my broader theory to explain why most of Obama’s foreign policy statements are so banal and factless. Surely he knows better. In regards to the LA Times poll, I am in the ‘maybe’ camp. We might be giving Cheney too much credit here.
Posted by: Steve | Aug 30 2008 14:29 utc | 5
Now at 51.2 Yes, 16.2 maybe; 377 total votes. Not a representative sample at all (perhaps more particularly not since B blogged this.) But still, even if we take the results before he blogged it as being more representative, I think it shows good sophistication in the thinking of those LAT readers, and their wariness of getting railroaded into cheap anti-Russianism.
i voted but the results of the poll did not show up afterwards.
Posted by: annie | Aug 30 2008 15:23 utc | 7
In regards to the La Times poll, I thought the MOA consensus was that polls are a cannard and device to sway popular opinion. Why the exceptionalism when it comes to this poll? Why even bother with such a thing?
And Steve, I think Howard Dean is a great example of what the Plutocracy will do to you when you don’t pass the sniff test. It demolishes you. It doesn’t matter who you are, you’re either with them, or you don’t stand a chance, meaning you will never make it past the primaries.
However, let’s assume your theory about Obama exceptionalism is correct, and Hussein is an “ousider,” then surely we are screwed for certain. You have now hung the hat of hope on an “outsider” whom people believe will challenge the status quo and bring sorely needed radical, progressive reform to this once great country of their’s. If what you believe is true, then he will, without a doubt, be assassinated by the deep state if he can’t be compromised, or neutralized in a less physically dramatic mannner. And, what would that do for hope in this country? What would black people do then? What would all the liberals do who hoped upon hope?
Point is, if this is your last hope, and Obama is as you say he is (which I don’t believe to be the case), then that’s a sad state of affairs indeed, and where can I place my bet…a bet on which the winnings won’t be worth collecting?
Posted by: Zogby | Aug 30 2008 15:41 utc | 8
@Zogby – like Helena I think this poll indeed shows that not everybody is drinking the cool-aid. Of course it is in no way representative (LAT online readers, the first question always gets clicks than following ones …) But still it shows that quite a lot of people were unaffected by the MSM story and/or looked through it. One could also nicely spin this into a yes vote for Putin 🙂
Putin for President!
Corporate Media is like the Titanic it cannot quickly alter its knee jerk support of GOP candidates.
Clearly the Bush/McCain Administration is wagging every tail to stay out of jail including poking the Russian bear. John McCain went as far as selecting an evangelistic true believer Christian with no foreign affairs experience to be a heart beat away from the Presidency.
We will see if the vision of total incompetents leading the federal government for four more years and the likelihood of a nuclear exchange override the Media Owners’ fear of an increased tax rate.
Posted by: VietnamVet | Aug 30 2008 16:14 utc | 10
The LA Times question is disingenuous. Putin did not say “Washington” but “some people”. “Some people”. Putin might be talking about Cheney’s office, but the interviewer didn’t press on the identity of “some people”. And Putin was not categorical, but advanced a [mischievous, imo] hypothesis based on the yet to be proven presence of Americans with the Georgian forces.
If my suppositions are confirmed, then there are grounds to suspect that some people in the United States created this conflict deliberately in order to aggravate the situation and create a competitive advantage for one of the candidates for the U.S. presidency. And if that is the case, this is nothing but the use of the called administrative resource in domestic politics, in the worst possible way, one that leads to bloodshed. .
………………………..
Why are you surprised at my hypothesis, after all? There are problems in the Middle East; reconciliation there is elusive. In Afghanistan, things are not getting any better; what is more, the Taliban have launched a fall offensive, and dozens of NATO servicemen are being killed.
From the complete CNN transcript. Worth reading the whole thing.
http://tinyurl.com/5vdtma
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 30 2008 16:18 utc | 11
Like Steve, I’m pretty undecided. Or, rather, there are known unknowns in this case. It’s definitely possible and realistic that BushCo is behind this. On the other hand, Saakashvili had his own reasons to push for this. His power was shakier with every passing month, yet with his knowledge of German, French, English, he still was quite a Western media darling, and could hope for some solid backing by Western powers. In fact, if there was any consideration about boosting McCain’s chance, I’d even more suspect it came straight from Georgian leadership who could fear Obama wouldn’t support them and be as warmongering and anti-Russian as McCain. Keeping in mind Randy Scheunemann is both counsigliere to McCain and Saakashvili, he and the Georgian leaders could’ve come to the conclusion this would be the best thing to do right now – without Darth Cheney (or even McCain) being directly involved.
Of course, all these are just suspicions, hypotheses and the like.
Posted by: CluelessJoe | Aug 30 2008 16:28 utc | 12
Hamburg – European observers have faulted Georgia in this month’s Caucasus conflict, saying it made elaborate plans to seize South Ossetia, according to the German news magazine Der Spiegel on Saturday.
In a report to appear in its Monday edition, it said officials of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) had said acts by the Georgian government had contributed to the outbreak of the crisis with Russia.
Spiegel said OSCE military observers in the Caucasus had described preparations by Georgia to move into South Ossetia.
The onslaught had begun before Russian armoured vehicles entered a southbound tunnel under the Caucasus Mountains to South Ossetia.
It said the OSCE report also described suspected war crimes by the Georgians, including the Georgians ordering attacks on sleeping South Ossetian civilians.
http://tinyurl.com/6p3hgb
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 30 2008 16:43 utc | 13
This is of no significance. On the internet, no one knows that the pet monkey voted. While you and I agree on the machinations with respect to Georgia, assuming the paper’s readers to have come to the same conclusion on a rather small country out there yonder is a bit much.
🙂
Heck, we just self selected and stuffed the ballot as we debate. 🙂
Interesting, nevertheless.
Posted by: shanks | Aug 30 2008 16:51 utc | 14
Let’s assume, per the poll, that “Washington,” whatever that means, provoked the fighting in Georgia to underscore the perception that McCain is the seasoned, decorated veteran we need in these seriously troubled times, with enemies confronting us from all directions. Why then would the ambiguous “Washington” allow McCain to completely negate that enhanced perception just created by nominating a “Washington” outsider with no experience in such matters, whatsoever? It’s a contradiction.
And b, we already know that some people, by virtue of the commentary here, know that what’s behind the events in Georgia is much more than what’s presented as the Official Version by the Mainstream Western Media. For the reasons specifically articulated by shanks and Thrasyboulos, I don’t think it’s a significant number of people. Kool-Aid is very popular these days, especially with the advent of Nutrasweet for those who are watching their calories.
Posted by: Zogby | Aug 30 2008 17:41 utc | 15
Heck, we just self selected and stuffed the ballot as we debate. 🙂
🙂
Yes, indeedy. Vote early and vote often. This is just one miniscule way of registering a protest.
Posted by: DM | Aug 30 2008 22:43 utc | 16