Sack Saak
Could the media please stop to repeat the lunatic uttering of this idiot?
Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili told foreign reporters his country's army has killed several hundred Russian servicemen and shot down at least 80 Russian aircraft.
Someone should tell Saak to SHUT UP instead of emphasizing Russian casualties (which are very likely much lower than he says). Consider how such talk sounds on Russian TV and how Russian civilians and politicians will react to it.
The Russians military has now moved some tanks into Georgian heartland:
Russia opened a second front of fighting in Georgia on Monday, sending armored vehicles beyond two breakaway provinces and seizing a military base in the country's west, Georgia's Defense Ministry and a Russian official said.
...
The move followed Russia's warning to Georgian forces west of Abkhazia to lay down arms or face a Russian military action. Senaki is located about 30 miles east of the Inguri River, which separates Abkhazia from Georgia proper.
big map
Senaki is a railway and street node between the only big Georgian harbor of Poti in the west at the Black Sea and the center of Georgia. This move makes sure that Georgian replenishment of weapons and ammunition by ship (from whom?) will not go through.
Saak should better get serious with making peace. Unfortunately the 'west' is still cheering him on. The French foreign minister had Saakashvili sign some cease-fire agreement. According to the German Spiegel (in German) the paper includes a demand for "retreat of all forces from the conflict zone under international observation and the start of political negotiations." This is the 'western' endgame plan I described two days ago:
The 'western' media reporting will now align with the official U.S. policy. Russia is the culprit for all these dead and it must be pushed out of South Ossetia and punished to regain peace. Then the 'west' will come in and oversee the ethnic cleansing of Ossetians by Georgian forces. Kosovo anyone?
People who read those 'left' media like the Independent might fall to that line. The Russians will not and there is no chance that this U.S. policy will be implemented.
Kouchner will now fly to Moscow and ask Medvedev to sign that paper too. Medvedev will have some exquisit words for him and some ideas into what dark place Kouchner should stick that paper.
The Russian conditions are clear:
- return to the status quo ante
- complete stand-down of Georgian forces
- a binding Georgian agreement not to use force against South Ossetia and Abkhasia.
- no foreign troops (i.e non Russian) in South Ossetia and Abkhasia
Any prolonging of the process now will lead to further Russian gains on the ground and a longer list of demands (reparations? sack Saak? war tribunals? ...)
Meanwhile the U.S. has flown some 800 Georgian soldiers and some of their equipment back to Georgia.
Was that really a smart move?
In April Russia had agreed to allow NATO equipment for forces in Afghanistan to be transported through its country. I expect that from now on there will be some difficulties for such transports with customs or the availability of rail cars. This at a time when the neo-Talibans are pondering plans to disrupt NATO's main supply line through Pakistan.
Is the U.S. willing to give up on Afghanistan for the little blusterer in Georgia? Is meddling in the Caucasus really in U.S. interests?
Medvedev today again emphazised the strategic realm of the Russian Federation:
"We have never been and will never be passive observers in the region," the president said at a meeting with the leaders of parliamentary factions. He stressed Russia's historical role as "a guarantor of security" in the Caucasus.
---
Sidenote:
The war continues in cyberspace. Civil.ge, and other Georgian websites, can only be reached sporadically. As annie found the Russian news site RIA Novosti was down too. It is up again and reports to have also suffered from cyber-attacks. Such attacks may be state sponsored, but they are so easy to do that a bunch of creative 'script-kiddies' can manage to pull down all but the strongest websites.
Posted by b on August 11, 2008 at 15:18 UTC | Permalink
Asia Times on Generalissimo Saakashvili.
Saakashvili, the Russian argument runs, has initiated military escalation over the past year because his political base has cracked and his domestic support is dwindling. The Georgian political opposition at home, and in exile abroad, agrees. They charge the president and his family, including the powerful Timur Alasaniya, Saakashvili's uncle, of growing corruptly rich off the arms trade and of seizing the country's resource, port and trading concessions for themselves and their supporters. Alasaniya, brother to Saakashvili's mother, holds the official position of Georgian representative to a United Nations Commission on Disarmament in New York...
The leaders of the Georgian opposition nearly succeeded in toppling Saakashvili last autumn. The president was forced to impose military rule in Tbilisi, while his former defense minister, Irakly Okruashvili, publicly accused him of murder and corruption. Okruashvili is currently in Paris, where he has been granted political asylum by the French government.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 15:52 utc | 2
BBC quotes Georgian FM that Gori has been captured by Russian troops.
So much for the ceasefire. Kouchner has a paper, however.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 16:09 utc | 3
"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds — these leaders must be taken under protection."
Posted by: biklett | Aug 11 2008 16:26 utc | 4
Bloomberg reporting that Senaki down. So much for Poti.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 16:28 utc | 5
Pravda has some interesting news and commentary. Can't speak for their accuracy though.
Posted by: Ensley | Aug 11 2008 16:31 utc | 6
Russian defense ministry denies (via BBC) Russians in Gori. Just saw Saakshvili on BBC. Seems to have lost his smirk.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 16:35 utc | 7
Russia says it will put 9,000 men and 350 armoured vehicle into Abkhasia. That is about a complete mechanic division. I expect the same amount but more infantry capability in South Ossetia. I'd estimate a week to get those troops settled. With Russian air superiority already established, the Georgian logistics are blocked but through Turkey which might not want to play along with the U.S. anyway (no good roads from there anyway, I have traveled the area myself).
Effectively the Russians could march to Tiblis for lunch at Saak's table, make a point or two, and be back in their camps for dinner.
Maybe they will.
soon saakashvili & the simpletons who work in his foreign ministry in tbilisi - creating fictions of such magnitude for the little eichmanns of the western media - that gori is taken, that russian tanks are coming from the abkhasia that their international airport is bombed - meanwhile cheney is jacking off in some cupboard in the white house wondering what worlds could be transformed into holes for halliburton
reflecting too how that hack khalizad hack seemed quite quite mad using language that under the circumstances is obscene - tho obscenity is not new to this administration - for the first time in a long time - the russian representatives not onlu seemed normal but also decent. & i'd imagine even a neutral person witnessing the exchanges & possessing sufficient memory would see straight through the lies the west tries to sell at every opportunity
but georgia must be a hard sell even for them
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 16:55 utc | 10
Directives from Cheney's cupboard:
Neocons Call For War on Russia
Posted by: | Aug 11 2008 17:07 utc | 11
rememberinggiap
It may be that the Russians are not in Gori centre but have effected a Georgian withdrawal nevertheless. BBC is now reporting that Georgian forces have moved to "defend Tbilisi".
I think the Generalissimo's days are numbered. So much bootlicking, so little to show for it.
Cheney and his neocons are making the usual noises. And the G7 (!!??) "are meeting". They'll issue a statement soon.
Lol!
BTW, have you noticed the same distance from reality in the Generalissimo as his neocon patrons. Must be that US training.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 17:11 utc | 12
BBC quotes Georgian FM that Gori has been captured by Russian troops.
So much for the ceasefire.
Indeed the Georgian's have been shooting through the night and all day - not that the 'western' media will necessarily report that ...
thrasyboulos
did you see the 'press(mess) conference' of the generalissimo - he pulled out evey dictum he was capable of from the neocon textbooks. someone here sd that he isn't a neocon - perhaps but to call this thug a nationalist in the 19th century sense is pure bullshit. he is a gangster - a clan gangster - nepotistically controlling areas of business crucial to such gangsters
the press conference proved absolutely what a clown this man is - the clown really imagines that cheney from his cupboard will come with his carnal cavalry - if i was saak id be searching for calvary - the western media is good at that too
the us training in communications is like a contemporary version of the volkmystic & it is taught by all those puffy little ponces in their pampers who whhile shitting in their nappies shit on the world instead. that was what was most marked with the un exchange - the only reasonable people there were russian
& what is john bolton doing other than ejaculatin into the wall street journal somewhere - he must have a hard time keeping his expensive toupée on - he's a man keen on slaughter - he wouldn't want to miss out here - there must be commentary by this coocoo somewhere
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 17:28 utc | 15
Glad someone else noticed the "We shot down 90 Russian planes". I didn't know he was the long lost twin of the former Iraqi Minister of Information.
Now, I wonder if the Russians really want to go to Gori and Senaki. This might annoy some people, it's quite close to some oil pipeline, which is to them more important than puny Georgia.
And if they want to push the Kosovo analogy, NATO never sent ground troops in Serbia proper - or just a bunch of special forces, no actual invasion. I still think they'll try to just put a massive military force in both secessionist areas and bomb the crap out of what's left of Georgian military. At least it would be safer, internationally speaking.
By the way, am I the only one to suspect serious losses on the Georgian side, given how Saakashvili and his officials look quite shaken if not frightened?
Posted by: CluelessJoe | Aug 11 2008 17:38 utc | 16
rememberinggiap,
it is taught by all those puffy little ponces in their pampers
Lol! Lol! Lol!
I caught part of the presser. What I came away with is that this guy is profoundly stupid. There doesn't seem to be one intelligent bone in his body. He repeats neocon Americanisms, badly, like a bleating sheep asking to be put out of its misery.
The Russians have issued an ultimatum that Georgians disarm the border with Ossetia. They've cut off Poti via Senaki and their navy, and the Agkhaz blockaded the Georgians in Kodori, and have issued an ultimatum via a corridor.
BTW, Kouchner has a signed document.
Lol!
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 17:42 utc | 17
and have issued an ultimatum that they withdraw via a corridor.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 17:45 utc | 18
thrasyboulos
they all speak like this whether it is blair:brown howard:rudd - i suppose its a new form of theology - something completely unconnected with reality - its kind of oprah winfrey fed through idi amin filtered through truman & coming out either orifice of john bolton
its a game show language - popular only to those with money in their pockets - 'their' world order, democracy spieled softly from their mouths - seems a frightening notion rather than an optimistic one. one can only thank christ that the u s administration is so stupid that they can't do anything except cry on wolf blitzer's shoulder who will then weep before his boss benjamin netanhayu
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 17:57 utc | 20
re, Ukraine.
I believe Saakshvili's adventure has put a permanent kibosh on Ukraine's NATO ambitions. The Generalissimo thought he'd force NATO to protect him by his blatant war crime. Germany and France have been around for a loooooooong time, and they're not about to extend protection to a potential hornet's nest like the Ukraine. Two factors: the Russian minority and Crimea. I somehow don't think Western Europe wants those kind of problems on their lap. Hence the rejection of NATO Georgia, Ukranian membership a few months ago. Like I said, the Western Europeans were not born yesterday, and they haven't gone through a century or war to fall for this kind of neocon bullshit.
Uneducated speculation on my part.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 17:58 utc | 21
"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds — these leaders must be taken under protection."
and, of course, who could forget the razing and assorted war crimes committed in Fallujah by the US, led by Bush.
Great job, bushie!!!
Posted by: IntelVet | Aug 11 2008 18:06 utc | 22
reuters quite clear - there are no russians in gori - & even the hack journalists cant quite say there are russians in gori - but even in their commentary they just mouth the press releases from georgia's foreign ministry
last night they tried to sell a massive bombardment of gori last nigh that simply did not happen
while the world already suffers enough gangsters like saakshvili extend that sufferring - much like the israelis in 2006 - so much so i'm waitng for that little monster tom(?) negev from the propaganda ministry to talk about russian tanks hidden in creches & sunday schools
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 18:10 utc | 23
@ Thrasyboulos - Ukraine - Two factors: the Russian minority and Crimea. Are you sure about that 'minority' thingy?
---
Someone has fun with all of this - Gary Brechter, the War Nerd: War Nerd: South Ossetia, The War of My Dreams
There are three basic facts to keep in mind about the smokin’ little war in Ossetia:1. The Georgians started it.
2. They lost.
3. What a beautiful little war!For me, the most important is #3, the sheer beauty of the video clips that have already come out of this war. I’m in heaven right now.
...
TBILISSI (Reuters) - Un haut responsable la sécurité géorgienne a annoncé lundi que les forces russes s'étaient emparées de la ville géorgienne de Gori, située à 60 km de la capitale, Tbilissi.
Mais un journaliste de Reuters présent à Gori a déclaré n'avoir vu aucun soldat russe dans les rues. "Nous sommes en train de traverser en voiture Gori et je n'aperçois aucun signe de soldats ou de véhicules militaires. Tout est complètement désert".
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 18:15 utc | 25
b,
here's the wiki entry on the Russian minority in the Ukraine. It's the largest minority group, at 17% thereabouts.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 18:27 utc | 27
Thrasyboulos - correct - I was wrong - but check language, religion(!) and other preferences and I'd be surprised if a real majority would come out anti-Russian. The industrial east and the Crimea (artificially added to the Ukraine in the 50s) is likely to stick with Russia if asked. The west-Ukrainians would tend to go it alone. It is quite a mess and if things would get tough I wouldn't bet on the western-Ukrainian folks.
They Ukraine has been Russian for 300+ years. Some 10-20 years of corrupt self-rule does not change that historic legacy.
b
We are in agreement. I meant to imply that there are strong pro Russian elements (ethnic, historic, religious) in the Ukraine, maybe close to 50%.
This, in my opinion, is a recipe for potential conflict within Ukraine, should the anti Russian elements around the present prime minister become even more anti Russian, especially on the issue of Crimea and its naval base. (Another gift of Djugashvili to the future stability of the region.)
Further, that this is an issue that Germany and France have no wish to have grandfathered via a Ukrainian membership in NATO, no matter what American neocons screech for.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 19:25 utc | 29
Wow, r'giap, you are hot tonight!
Please expand and elaborate into a Unified Field Theory of NeoZi.Con's
Game show, more so. Game Show + Wall Street Credit.con + MLM + Vegas.
Truly a theology, complete with pharisees, gold robes and "latin code".
"Cheney in the cupboard" will be a new "code word" we can all laugh at.
Don't stop. Keep writing while your pen is hot!!
Posted by: Tante Aime | Aug 11 2008 19:34 utc | 30
The lunatics seem to win in the U.S. political discourse. See Booman's idiotic take: Georgia: A Reality Check for the Left
He claims to be somehow left? What is he or Holbrocke or Kristol going to do about Georgia? With what military capacity or moral justification?
Idiot's abound. The U.S. will have to accept the strategic claim Medvedev asserted as cited above.
If not then what? Six divisions of U.S. paratroopers jump into Tiblisi? Dream on. The U.S. has no six divisions of paratroopers. It does not even have a brigade or battalion to spare and that would be some national guard road builders.
All that breast thumping is just ridiculous and the world knows it.
Civil.ge has a US based blog, CivilGeorgia.blogspot.com.
Russia is denying all moves into Georgia proper, hard to believe. I've got a fancier? map here.
Another thing, in the history of the internet, nobody has cared this much about Civil.GE, there is a chance some of it is just the inability of webservers to keep up. I work in computers, and I know that sometimes that problems like these avalanche, the result being that almost no pages are served at all.
Anyone with a half-working brain can see that Holbrooke's piece is just as reality-based as Powell's UN speech about Iraqi WMDs.
I was suspecting that the War nerd would have a field day, particularly with this war.
Ukraine: there may be 1/4 or even 1/3 of ethnically Ukrainians who don't mind Russians and Russia. Recent elections tend to show it quite clearly, they usually get a 45% vote for parties that are either pro-Russia or for a close relationship.
Crimea has the dreaded potential to become a nasty issue, since it's everything but Ukrainian to begin with, and has the Russian fleet stationed there.
Ukraine in NATO would bring far far more trouble than Georgia.
BTW, I'm still wondering how far Russians are ready to go inside Georgia. There's quite a risk of vastly unnecessary overreach in my opinion - not only militarily on the ground, but with regard to the international community, most people don't give a damn and many are also smart enough to see Georgia's faults, but overrunning the whole country could change that.
Posted by: CluelessJoe | Aug 11 2008 20:14 utc | 33
CJ,
There is a brief mention on BBC International (tv), quoting a Reuters report, that the Russians have withdrawn from Senaki.
b,
It doesn't pay to underestimate the political stupidity and deep in the marrow ignorance of the American googoo left.
On another note, here's the Georgian ambassador pitching the Chinese.
...flanked by several embassy staff and supporters wearing red arm bands that read "Stop Russia!" he said he hoped China, as a great power, would make the right conclusion.
The Rose Revolution has sprouted candlelight ceremonies, arm bands, demos...Madison Avenue's puffy little ponces in pampers (r'giap's phrase) working overtime for the cretin Generalissimo. How can he lose?
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 20:32 utc | 34
the booman babble is precisely that - babble. again, here is american exceptionalism dressed up as joan rivers dressing up as j edgar hoover dressing up as jean harlow. it's ugly. very ugly
what it tells us - not that we need to be told - is how much the neoconservatives have penetrated & i mean penetrated common discourse. booman does not have a historical or moral leg - to stand on - but that is beside the point. it suggest to me that racism, white skin privelege, bookworship are absorbed by a certain kind of 'left' but never humanity or even understanding that ought to be the basis of any solidarity. but booman is not talking solidarity - like his pals the neocons - they only ever speak strategy - even when that strategy has been ripped to shreds by the hyenas & jackals in the press & commentariat they so stupidly substitute for the truth
the bbc has just said that the russian were never in gori - yet all you are hearing are phantom russian armies everywhere.
what ought to shame a commentator like booman is he is a carbon copy of a william kristol. how easily some on the 'left' sell out their morality
jesse helms & strom thurmond did not represent an exception in american political discourse but are its exemplars even on the 'left' - i don't see any difference between a helms on cuba or a booman on georgia. none at all
what we have always required is a critique & a critique requires substance. there is no such substance in the booman piece
while it is clear that thye russians were never in gori & have left senaki after half a day - it is implied that a press release from the georgian foreign ministry which have all the elements of a hallucination are to be believed as the untarnished truth
in this regard aljazeera is with the worst of them - surprisingly & very paranthetically the bbc has been much more hesitant than it has been in years to lick neocon ass - perhaps that will change in an hour or a day
jérome's piece while being very eurocentric was at least well informed - the same cannot be said of booman - almost the opposite in fact
this american 'left' of booman - is earl browder fucking adlai stevenson fucking gary cooper fucking rip torn fucking rick santorum
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 20:38 utc | 35
this site is proof that there is an american left that is not homogenous nor hoonish. i am taught a great deal by americans here so a booman here or there are not as offensive as they ought to be
it is criminal tho for the left's discourse to be annexed by the pus that constitutes neocon discourse - there was a documentary here on arte the other week - with one of the members of the band ' the fugs' who spoke extremely cogently about how the best of the 'left' in america allows itself to be swallowed & transformed into its proper enemy
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 20:46 utc | 36
The new new spin cycle: The NZ radio leads this morning with Saak's big lie technique - using his greater access to Western media to accuse the Russians of what he did so that when people hear the truth (if they get to it) it becomes a "he said/she said" battle: "The Russians planned it. They purposefully attacked during the Olympics." "They are invading us." "They want to overthrow the government."
Then a Bush quote with something I honestly couldn't be bothered to listen to or remember. In the broadcast proper they replayed the Saak quote (ignoring Bush as I did), then cut to a BBC voice live in Gori who completely contradicted their lead - ie. no Russians in Gori, just a stream of tanks (3 dozen!), personnel carriers and commandeered civilian vehicles full of Georgian soldiers fleeing Ossetia in a disorderly fashion. Then an analyst from the Guardian who confirmed that the unilateral Georgian shelling of Tblisi had started the conflict, and that this was all likely tied in with Kosovo somehow. The radio announcer was audibly non-plussed by the rapid spins and completely over his head. First a 180 from yesterday's news in the leader, then another 180 from folks on the ground putting them right back where they started but obviously not the new new truth.
I only had two questions left. Why would Saak be so stupid? The reference above (Thrasyboulos #2) from the Asia Times on strengthening domestic opposition clicks into that slot. Time was running out and he needs at least a cause celebre to feather his bolt hole.
My second question was why the US would encourage it given they will end up looking ineffectual (and probably lose effective control over the BTC pipeline which is more to the point). When I heard the "big lie" I realised that this conflict was created to become a litmus test for the US elections. Either Obama will have to stand up and bray "Two legs good, four legs bad!" or he will be labelled weak on Russia etc. etc. This is their way of making him choose between the reality-based community and the rump of the US electorate. He won't be able to dodge it.
The pressure will build via Fox, McCain et. al. until he has to either agree that "black is white" ie. Georgia was attacked, Russia cannot be trusted, and more, and more... (and will still be called weak on Russia etc. but that is another story) or be labelled a Russia loving, surrender monkey through November. They have him unless US media (ex Fox) line up on the reality side; and the media never will because they firmly believe that the American public will always resent being told the truth.
Posted by: PeeDee | Aug 11 2008 20:48 utc | 37
it is absolutely clear that georgia awaits an american response or an american response dressed up as a european one
cj - i think that is why the russians were never in gori & why they have no intention to rest in georgia - the georgians will get rid of saak themselves
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 20:51 utc | 38
I also think that this is a way for the POTB to show the erst-while adoring crowds in Europe that in reality Obama is no different. He can be made to bend over in exactly the same way that any other would-be American politician can be. This is a demonstration that while they may have lost the ability to dictate events in Asia, the Middle East and Europe; by god they still control the US media, and through them US public opinion and the US political apparatus. For demonstration purposes, the more extreme the contortions of reality required the better.
This has Rove all over it.
Posted by: PeeDee | Aug 11 2008 20:56 utc | 39
Remembering Giap is living in a dreamland.
Russia is confirming they were in Senaki, which is in Georgia proper.
while it is clear that thye russians were never in gori & have left senaki after half a day
Have left implies they were there, and have now left, according to the BBC.
You should brush up on your reading comprehension.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 21:10 utc | 41
I'll try that again.
R'Giap: while it is clear that thye russians were never in gori & have left senaki after half a day
Have left implies they were there, and have now left, according to the BBC.
You should brush up on your reading comprehension.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 21:16 utc | 42
that would mean they were in senaki for several hours
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 21:17 utc | 43
Search youtube for RussiaToday for English language reports from the Russian point of view. It's faster than the RussiaToday site.
Here's one from last year: Testing anti-demonstration weapons
Posted by: biklett | Aug 11 2008 21:19 utc | 44
thrasyboulos
i see no wrong in the russians taking advantage of their position & i don't think i denied their presence in senaki. what i did suggest however was the press releases coming out of the georgian foreign affairs ministry were hallucinations
i am now listening to bush menace the russians using these hallucinations as his rationale
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 21:25 utc | 45
In spite of all the victim screeching from Saakashvili and his patrons in the West, Russian military action will prevent any further attacks of Ossetia and possibly Abhkazia. The Russians will continue their policeing near or over the Georgian border to bring Saakashvili and his American/Israeli trained and equipped army to heel. Eventually, the Georgians will sign a non aggression pact and all that implies...no question.
At that point, the US trained, neocon backed Saakasvili will have to face the music from the Georgian people. A gypsy fortune teller told me that this morning.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 21:27 utc | 46
it remains, in an imperial context, a limited operation
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 21:32 utc | 47
r'giap,
we are in agreement. The Russians are conducting a police action in Abkhazia and the border area, be it in Georgia, or wherever.
The occupation or not of Senaki or Gori is not important. If the Russians had wanted to destroy Georgia or besiege Tbilisi, they would have been a lot more aggressive than they have been, feverish Georgian victimology (they've learned well) notwithstanding.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 21:33 utc | 48
& in that sense, i do not underestimate the madness of us imperialism distinct from its rhetoric
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 21:34 utc | 49
thrasyboulos
sorry for being a little abrupt - but as in the israel's desecration of lebanon in 2006 - the way the dominant discourse is spread - like so much shit in your face. in 2006 at least we had some television & a journal or two - but the world of commentary has been greatly reduced in the last 2 years - at least its subservience more total. as total as it is in the english speaking world
& the exercises of propaganda so cruel that you starve for sources & have to swim through seas of shit. as in 2006 you hear commentators suggest something that has often just been directly contradicted by the facts. al jazeera has been opening its news for example with suggestions of russian presence in gori bu then their own reporter in gori says there are no russians but the commentary goes on regardless
once something like russiatoday or iran's presstv would have seemed merely tools but they are in fact sometimes much less so than the western media
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 21:45 utc | 50
I think some people are misreading Booman. He is not endorsing the oped. He's pointing out that the Democratic foreign policy establishment are a bunch of DLCers who are holding hands with the neocons on this and the people on the left are stuck. he states that he has opposed Clinton foreign policy and his conclusion seems valid.
Posted by: Sgt Dan | Aug 11 2008 21:46 utc | 51
The Russians don't need to roll up all of Georgia to make their point and consolidate their gains. I don't know what's gotten into the folks here at MoA. This is some kind of transference phenomenon, I guess. Eight years of war in Iraq have driven you out of your stinking minds. People are breaking out the champagne here, while we may be edging toward destruction. But it has been proven that when people begin to break down under stress they sometimes look desperately to some satisfying resolution, regardless of the consequences.
Some writing on this thread are absolutely as bad as any American horse's ass watching our troops roll over the desert toward Baghdad in 2003, sitting in the big chair with a triumphal smile.
Everything is being reduced to personalities. There will be good coming out of evil, will there?. Bush Cheney Bolton are finally getting the raspberry in the forseeable humiliation of Georgia and that nation's ruin, made perfectly sensible under the cleansing clattter of Russian tanks. Saakashvili may be a throwback to the 19th Century; but that's no excuse to throw a nation of 4.6 million under the Russian bus.
...the danger of violence, even if it moves consciously within a nonextremist framework of short-term goals, will always be that the means overwhelm the end. If goals are not achieved rapidly, the result will be not merely defeat but the introduction of the practice of violence into the whole body politic. Action is irreversible, and a return to the status quo in case of defeat is always unlikely. The practice of violence, like all action, changes the world, but the most probable change is to a more violent world.--Hannah Arendt
gotta chime in with Sgt Dan, Booman seems to merely be stating what has so often been said here, there is little to no difference between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to empire.
I did not see that he supported present and past foreign policy, only that we be realistic in our expectations that it will change. I fear he is absolutely correct in his assessment.
nearly everyone I talk to has absolutely no inkling of background or any of the events leading up to this scrimmage. The only information they have is what comes from CNN and BBC and they believe it without reservation. These people are expats who have been living in Europe for some time and should conceivable know better. They don't and have the same general opinions as the guy watching the boob tube in his trailer in Arkansas.
same as it ever was.
Posted by: dan of steele | Aug 11 2008 21:59 utc | 53
Pity the Russians were not able to stop yesterday. I still think it is by far in Russian interests to wrap this up as soon as they can. Much better to stop, and let the Georgians get rid of Saakashvili themselves, as r'giap has just said (#38).
Going on to forced regime change means time, and the longer the action goes on, the greater the danger of someone else intervening, or some other unknown military or political event.
Better the model of Kuwait 1991, than Baghdad 2003. Still the US can't complain if forced regime change does take place. After all, the Bush regime invented the idea.
I am more and more impressed by what a disaster this is for US foreign policy. The Georgians - great US ally - have begged for US aid, and it has not happened. Of course the 101st Airborne may land in Tbilisi tomorrow (sorry, they're in Afghanistan(?)). Still, Cheyney must be going ape over what is happening. Could do something foolish.
Posted by: Alex | Aug 11 2008 21:59 utc | 54
no problem, r'giap,
I see things in the context of Western hypocrisy. It's the oxygen in the blood of US neocon imperialism, metastasized from the crowning achievements of British imperialism, still going strong in the ME. This is coupled with an almost psychotic relentless, willful lack of self awareness. Hence the free for all madness in the rhetoric, absent of all reality. And everyone is falling in line, as you've noted. The cnnization of the world.
Were the Russians to come even close to what the AngloAmericans did to Serbia, the infrastructure, radio/television, bridges, roads, hospitals, civilian and public facilities, would be smithereens, and Saakashvili would be buried in a bunker somewhere or on his way to the Hague.
Hence the hallucinatory propaganda puked up by the Idiot Generalissimo and his madison avenue handlers in a relentless pursuit to portray themselves as the victims in this, just as the dead of Tshinvali are not buried yet.
Anyway, enough idle pontificating for now. I'm going for a run. See you later.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 22:00 utc | 55
copeland
you are not stupid but you ignore how such a crisis comes about. & i think you do that intentionally. the empire has set up its puppets in this region for a reason. a consistent reason. & that reason was constructed by the neocons. their destruction of iraq & their interference in the old soviet union are out of the same book. &
& it would seem - even from the western media's own reportage that the weight of physical suffering of a people has been overwhelmingly vited on the south ossetians by the georgians. the massive destruction of the towns in south ossettia are there for your eyes to see
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 22:08 utc | 56
Alex,
I predict the Russians will wrap this up just as soon as the Saakashvili or his successor signs a non aggression pact with Abkhazia and S. Ossetia.
BTW, the ones who've thrown 4.5 million people under the bus are the war criminals who planned the blitzkrieg and massacre of Tshinvali.
Hanna Arendt or no Hanna Arendt.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 22:08 utc | 57
not only the georgian war criminals but it is apparent - from a number of observors including clintons representative on nato - that the georgians were led to believe they could get away from this - & in his words - "there are people in the white house who ought to pay for this provocation" - bbc last night
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 22:16 utc | 58
Wonder what Hanna Arendt would have to say about this.
"They may have calculated that some people would leave the region and flee north to North Ossetia, but the rest would stay and the problem would basically be resolved."
In hindsight, [Denison] said, the Georgians should have thought about blocking or blowing up the Roki Tunnel that links South Ossetia to Russia and gave Russian forces access to the region. But the Georgians needed to keep the tunnel open so that South Ossetians could escape north.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 11 2008 22:18 utc | 59
& it is not a case of simply blaming the united states. the proof is there. & so are the plans whether it is written by the cruel men suck as kristol, perle wolfowitz et al at the project of the new american century or by the more refined brutality of zbigniew brezinski & his genocide tainted theories
georgia was of extraordinary importance to them both
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 22:24 utc | 60
from inner city press, blogging @ the u.n. security council today,
Entering the Chamber at 5 p.m. were the UN's American political chief Lynn Pascoe, charged with bias by Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin and the just-appointed UN envoy to Abkhazia, Jan Verbeke. His appearance was a surprise, given that he was only recently switched to Georgia from UN service in Lebanon, which he left amid death threats...Reporters crowded around a television just outside the Chamber, to watch President George Bush announce that moves were afoot to overthrown Russia's president. While it's assumed that he meant Georgia, no questions were taken in the Rose Garden. Here's hoping it's different outside the Security Council.
Outside the UN's gate, protesters bearing Georgian red and white flags beckoned reporters to listen. There were no South Ossetians in sight. Spain's Ambassador to the UN, asked of a different in the drafting of the resolution between condemnation and concern said that it didn't matter. A Balkan diplomat pointed out that from all over the Caucuses, ex-combatants itching for a fight are headed toward South Ossetia, including from Kabardino-Balkaria, the latter name apparently referring to Bulgarian, the residents as a lost or break-away tribe. CNN showed footage from the Council's stakeout; reporters went and waved as if in a baseball stadium. Hi, Mom -- a variant of what the First Avenue protesters were saying.
Posted by: b real | Aug 11 2008 22:28 utc | 61
& in any case i am not such a fan of ms arendt. she remained martin heideggers principal apologist - obscured & belittled the great philosopher & psychiatrist,karl jaspers
her critique of authoritarianism ironically has been used by the ideologues of the most authoriarian american administration
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 22:30 utc | 62
& copeland watch the way mccain & obama compete to be the psychopath-in-chief on this isssue
context, my dear copeland is everything
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 22:36 utc | 63
Someone's in love with righteous carnage now. Others will have to pay for it, though. Even r'giap says that I'm intentionally ignoring the causes of the crisis. OK, so what's my fucking motive.
Everyone should go over to the Pravda site upstream and regard what is classic propaganda: the demonization and villification and dehumanizing of the enemy. Hysteria will be taking hold next.
But no one can change what the Russians did to the Chechens, any more than the US can undo what's been done in Iraq. Okay r'giap there are neocons and their puppets, but there is also Putin, and his history of using militias and irregulars in the border regions to carry out extrajudicial murder and the proxy work leading to a tragedy like this.
The methods of the Big Players don't change. I'm seeing that Hannah Arendt's ethos and reputation are being attacked; but the clarity, pertinence, and lucidity of her words, as quoted, cannot be assailed.
at this point in time the only reasonable discourse internationally is coming from the russians. their stated goals quirte clear as b has noted - as most of the people here have noted in oppposing georgia's agression - that russia has little reason to rest outside of necessity
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 22:46 utc | 65
I'm sorry r'giap, if I'm snapping at you. I'm popping the caps off some beers now. I can't take it. I shouldn't write any more for a while. I'll just continue to read for a while. I'm not justifying or overlooking what Saakashvili did, either.
copeland
i respect you & you know it.
the crimes of mr putin et al are not even quantifiably close to those of the cheney bush junta - & that you also know
chechnya is another matter entirely & i would suggest you read the journalist(the fortune journalist who was assasinated in moscow) khlebnikov's book 'godfather of the kremlin' on boris berezovsky & the other oligarchs & their reach & interdependance with the chechnyan 'leadership' - who were an integral part of the system of 'vor' - organised crime both during the soviet union & after it
the russians aren't angels but they are a whole lot cleaner than the criminals that serve in the direct interests of the u s empire
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 22:54 utc | 67
copeland
our arguments ouught to be furious & there'e's nothing to apologise for - i thought i knew a great deal on this region before this war but i have as usual been taught here a great deal by others -
but i imagine it is also true that the heat of my reaction are fuelled by the tomfoolery of the georgian motherfucker, to listen to that stupid & mean motherfucker khalizad at the un & then the motherfucker-in-chief bush menace the russians - i am not so cold that my instincts are unable to push me closer to positions that are harder than i want them to be
then i have to see what is left of the town tskhinvali after georgian bombardement & that is quite enough to nourish those instincts
(the hannah arendt is another matter but ideas are so precious to me that heideggers theft of husserl's work - an ugly ugly thing in the world of knowledge - arendt even as a student was no innocent in these matters - her relarion to heidegger colours her deeply in my eyes - so too derridaa's defence of him & the dact that she has been a foundation text for both the neocons & the liberal intelligentsia who have given us only a world full of blood)
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 23:10 utc | 70
meanwhile, directly from hoola hoola, hawaii, Mr. Obama states that
"We want Russia to play its rightful role as a great nation, but with that role comes the responsibility to act as a force for progress in this new century, not regression to the conflicts of the past."Obama Emerges to Talk About Georgia - NYT
...ja, ja, of course, we must advance the conflicts of the present
Posted by: rudolf | Aug 11 2008 23:21 utc | 71
that's part of it too
the pure shamelessness of bush, cheney khalizad & co & their cretinous commentators - talking about conlict, intervention regime change etc etc without so much as a blush
they really believe the people do not have possession of a memory
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 11 2008 23:58 utc | 72
& yes i was right - it didn't take but a few hours but they obviouslly got their orders
the bbc ran tonight an interview with the meglomaniaclly mad saakashvili in his little den & his baleful map that would be the shame of any schoolroom & he just recounts his little fictions while the pompous piece of shit from the bbc in best cordorouys accepts all the meaningless mumble as historical fact
what a fucking world
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 12 2008 0:05 utc | 73
Well, I didn't comment on Booman since he's fairly reality-based in his article, but the Holbrooke-Asmus piece just made me looking for something to punch. I really don't envy his position, because he can only hope for the lesser of two evils, while knowing that it's still a serious evil quite often...
Copeland: I wish Russians don't go too far and would be able to stop this war pretty soon. We'll see how much destruction and madness Georgia is willing to suffer through before it's over, and we'll see if Russia is willing to appear more of a bully by pushing farther into Georgia.
Posted by: CluelessJoe | Aug 12 2008 0:05 utc | 74
the neverending menace, threats & fictions of the u s empire are enough to turn a quaker into an armed revolutionary or drive you stark raving mad
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 12 2008 0:19 utc | 75
The Russian troops later withdrew from Senaki, Russian and Georgian officials said, with Tbilisi saying its military base there has been destroyed.
"Russian forces have destroyed Senaki military base and have left it," a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry, Shota Utiashvili, told AFP.
The decision to hold the base only briefly seemed to be consistent with Russia’s stated goal of eliminating threats to South Ossetians rather than overthrowing the government.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 12 2008 0:23 utc | 76
R'giap,
I think it's Mark Negev just so as not to offend the toms out there. What this does highlight as usual is the absence of English speaking spokespersons on the other side, whether the issue be Cuba, Iran, Syria, etc.
The tendency is that US TV will make up the story around pronouncements of those who are speaking with Brooklyn accents. So what bias there is is furthered.
Posted by: YY | Aug 12 2008 1:15 utc | 77
yy
yes you are right, but i think the little monster is australian
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 12 2008 1:23 utc | 78
Uneasy lies the head...
Georgian TV station taken over by troops
Georgia's main opposition TV station is taken over by government troops after the president declared a state of emergency
Don't bother with the link. It's in the Guardian, but the video has elapsed due to "copyright" expiration. Who knew?
Hilarious. The Idiot Generalissimo and his neocon advisers are afraid Georgians might deliver the truth about his sheep-like blundering stupidity. Last I looked, there were no Russians, no Ossetians, no Abhkazians, in Tbilisi, just Georgians who at this point might be starting to think seriously about this war criminal and his American/Israeli military advisers, buttressed with the best madison avenue talent the American taxpayer can buy.
BTW, there will be candles in Tbilisi by week end, and cute Stop Russia armbands, and there will be a signed document tomorrow, delivered to the Kremlin by the French postal service. Who, truth be told, isn't going to be knocking on the gates too loudly, lest Gospodin Putin develop second thoughts about Shtokman.
Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Aug 12 2008 1:44 utc | 79
as with the israeli invasion of lebanon in 2006 - all the media falls in line - here in france, italy all the anglo saxons repeating the same unverified shit saying it is unverified but inferring it is verified. on so many levels & with so many facts
the madman saak from his little den miming this & that scenario which have little to do with reality, any reality - other than one that is perhaps preplanned
i hope the russian stand up before the georgian provocation & the empire's bullying
the us empire demeans the world with every little game it plays - it's machiavel filtered through an idiot wind
that song resonates today - everything the empire touches - it demeans
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 12 2008 2:17 utc | 80
Here's a shaft of sunlight, illuminating the dark cave of the Washington Post . What's it doing there? I guess there's a limit, a threshold of some kind, to the tolerance, even in Washington, for the sheer, unmitigated idiocy of the Georgian scene. If only for an instant.
Posted by: alabama | Aug 12 2008 2:23 utc | 81
i've been reading this play out mostly through online sources i trust to resist easy (western) conclusions, and purposely stayed away from mainstream sources, but tonight i tuned in and was more than a bit horrified.
i understand where Copeland is coming from, but for right now russia needs to be given the benefit of the doubt because the western media--especially here in the states, where geographical ignorance has most of us shrugging our shoulders in bewilderment--is obscenely complicit in painting this as a russian aggression. once again the media is creating a totally false reality from the ground up, and not many of us will have the luxury or the desire to seek out the truth of this one.
listening to pundits describe russia as playing a 19th century game in a "21st century, post-geopolitics world" (seriously, some worthless shit actually said that on npr) seems like further indication saakashvili's fuck up is being desperately spun to cover the fallout of another unaided ally, and to embarrass russia, if that's even possible right now.
so why is this happening now?
i know, maybe israeli goaded georgia into jabbing the great bear to intentionally expose the over-stretched amerikan empire in order to back the neocons into a face-saving attack on iran because israel realized the neocon resolve to attack had faded in the wake of harsh economic realities that might, if they're allowed to deteriorate further, act as the catalyst to actual, tangible change, the kind parasitic pols and their corporate masters are most afraid of.
ukraine is also being mentioned. who knows. but one thing for sure, the western media is beyond atrocious, and that's a serious problem because russia is just too easy to sell as the bad guy. after all, it's the olympics, and in this complicated, post 9-11 world, what amerikan wouldn't love to revert to the simplicity of the cold war, back when fucking ROCKY kicked RUSSIA'S commie ass in the boxing ring.
copeland, 'giap: here's to spirited sparring with no hits below the belt. MoA is like an island of dialogue in a sea of flames.
cheers!
Posted by: Lizard | Aug 12 2008 2:41 utc | 83
from the latest inner city press dispatch tonite from the u.n.
After U.S. Ambassador Khalilzad said that his question to Churkin about statements that Russia demanded "regime change" in Georgia had led to a change in Russian policy, Inner City Press asked Amb. Churkin for his response. He laughed and said, "They put into our mouth something we didn't say" then used it to "scare" Georgia's president. "It is not our intent to try to overthrow" the president of Georgia, he said, adding that "we cannot see how we can do business with him." This was later tied to Russia's position that he is now a war criminal.Churkin went out to say, "We shared this confidentially" with the United States, then they engage in "Leninist diplomacy... We are training on Leninist diplomacy, there are all sorts of these we can reveal." Amb. Khalilzad had left by then, but Inner City Press will pursue these questions, including of reported U.S. military involvement in South Ossetia, in coming day.
For now, the text of the French draft resolution:
...
Posted by: b real | Aug 12 2008 2:53 utc | 84
followup for #84 @ inner city press
UNITED NATIONS, August 11 -- Propaganda or underground truth, on the sidelines of conflict in South Ossetia, Russian media has been reporting that foreign fighters, including Americans, were found among the dead in Tskhinvali. Russia Today quoted South Ossetia's Eduard Kokoity that "Ukrainians and mercenaries from the Baltics as well as nationals from other countries were involved in the fighting, as 'foreigners have been found among their bodies.'" South Ossetia's envoy to Russia was quoted that "in yesterday's most recent tank attack, the advancing tanks were supposedly crewed by Ukrainians. Two unidentified bodies found today... Americans... who were probably either mercenaries or instructors in the Georgian armed forces."Against this backdrop, Inner City Press on Monday afternoon asked the U.S. Ambassador to the UN Zalmay Khalilzad, Russian media is reporting that foreign fighters including Americans were involved in Tskhinvali. "Some say this is propaganda, some say this is true. What do you say?" Video here, from Minute 8:44.
Khalilzad answered that "we hear a lot of propaganda. We've heard the U.S. gave the green light to this operation... I have nothing specific with regard to these report, but I would not conclude that they are true. We did not have any prior knowledge or were not consulted by Georgia." He encouraged agnosticism as to what happened on August 6, that one "not necessarily buy the line that Georgia initiated a conflict." We'll see.
depends on how you define "we", perhaps?
Posted by: b real | Aug 12 2008 4:23 utc | 85
It's the moment we've been waiting for: Bush gets up before the UN, and denounces the Russians for invading a foreign country on trumped-up charges. He carries on at great length about the death of civilians and the destruction of everyday life. And those guys at the UN will have to hear him out, politely.
So yes, it's true, my capacity for cruelty knows no bounds. But at least it's confined to my fantasy life (or mostly so, I should say) and I'm not a born-again Christian, either.
Posted by: alabama | Aug 12 2008 4:39 utc | 86
It is weird that the London Times is one of the few media right now with decent reproting: Georgian army flees in disarray as Russians advance
The Georgian Army was in complete disarray last night after troops and tanks fled the town of Gori in panic and abandoned it to the Russians without firing a shot.There is still ZERO confirmation that the Russian's are in Gori or even intend to go there.
...
The retreat from Gori, the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, was as humiliating as it was sudden and dramatic. The Times witnessed scores of tanks and armoured personnel carriers, laden with soldiers, speeding through the town away from what Georgian officials claimed was an imminent Russian invasion. The retreat from Gori, the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, was as humiliating as it was sudden and dramatic. The Times witnessed scores of tanks and armoured personnel carriers, laden with soldiers, speeding through the town away from what Georgian officials claimed was an imminent Russian invasion.
...
Soldiers left by any means available. Dozens of troops clung to cars on the back of a transporter lorry, while five other soldiers fled on one quad bike.
...
The Russian attacks were met with Georgian artillery fire towards South Ossetia, despite President Saakashvili’s statement that he had called a ceasefire. Reporters later witnessed at least six Georgian helicopters attacking targets in South Ossetia.
...
The panic had been triggered at about 5pm, when troops suddenly started pouring out of Gori. Officials from the Georgian Interior Ministry claimed that up to 7,000 Russian troops with tanks were heading for the town and that it was under imminent threat of bombardment. A similar panic had ensued on Sunday night as thousands of people poured from the town, in what turned out to be a false alarm. The fear this time was more tangible, the sense of threat more real, as Gori’s streets emptied rapidly.
Check out Saakashvili’s Address to the Nation in the Georgian Times.
He is all over the map in this speech. One moment he is claiming that to be inflicting heavy damage on the Russians, and the very next line he says "we want to immediately end this military confrontation, we want to end the war, which we have not launched, we want to stop Russia’s intervention." Then every so often he laments that his citizens didn't give him all of the weapons he had been asking for.
It is pretty bizarre (even without the poor translation that makes him sound like Borat)
Posted by: marukusu | Aug 12 2008 7:41 utc | 88
"that makes him sound like Borat"
LOL
Borat is as Borat does, I guess.
Posted by: anna missed | Aug 12 2008 7:56 utc | 89
For an informed sane view I again recommend AFCEA's Nightwatch
The information therein is usually excellent (I never caught them fudging even a bit), the comment/analysis/predictions are good too, though I don't always agree with those:
Comment: Today the Russians tested international reaction to an outright military occupation of Georgia. The reaction to date will encourage them that they can take as much or all of Georgia they choose, if they can afford the losses.The continued shooting by Georgian snipers, reports of artillery fire and today’s helicopter attack provides the justification for Russian escalation. Today’s Russian movements signify that the carefully crafted goals – no forces beyond the South Ossetia border and an agreement on non-use of force – articulated by Foreign Minister Lavrov have been superseded.
The Russians today changed enlarged the goals. The new requirement to disarm is even more open ended than “peace enforcement.” There are no Georgian forces to prevent them, for example, from linking the two buffer zones they created today by moving against the intermediate towns of Samtredia, Kutaisi and Kashuri, two of which are former Soviet garrison towns. Their military planners would, no doubt, argue that a coherent integrated defensive line along the railroad and the highway would make good military sense to consolidate peace enforcement gains. That would put half of Georgia under Russian control.
Disarmament means the disbanding of the Georgian armed forces. That is a task associated with surrender and military occupation. That will not happen so expect more fighting and another expansion of the Russian zone of control.
The logic of this scenario is that eventually when the Russians reach the outskirts of Tbilisi and defeat the Georgian defenders, they will encourage a popular uprising to oust Saakashvili and replace him with a government that will welcome the peacekeepers. “Disarmament” puts this scenario in play. Putin said today the operations will be carried to their logical conclusion.
The danger is the Russians appear to be viewing Georgian operations a lot like those in Chechnya. None of Georgia’s allies have announced any action that might cause the Russians to hesitate or think otherwise. If there is only strong diplomatic language from the West not backed up by credible military moves, Georgia’s independence will be decided in Moscow.
It seems it's over. Medvedev is calling off the military operations. So cut the propaganda crap about Georgia being invaded or 'destroyed'. If it had a been an US/NATO operation half of Georgia cities would have been flattened.
The russians seems to be still laughing at the attempts of the useless EU stoges to make a complete defeat of their rabid dog into a 'diplomatic' victory with their 'peace plan'. The surrender conditions will be set by the victors, not by the defeated.
Posted by: ThePaper | Aug 12 2008 9:57 utc | 91
Since, in the well worn words of the classic wit and incisive thinker Anonymous Bystander "opinions are like assholes. Every one has one and thinks others all stink" I may as well put my two bobs worth in on the humans being killed in the Caucasus.
From down at this end of the world it felt at first, like if one could play the sort of numbers game that pols play, the notion of northerner europeans fighting each other as the fight expanded outwards drawing in 'supporters' on both sides, that this could be a 'good thing' for the rest of us. Although there have been a few well publicised atrocities committed over the centuries when the whitefella oppressor has a falling out among themselves, in the main for unwhite peeps especially those in the South, these periodic feuds can provide opportunity for southern Houdinis to cast off the shackles of empire. eg I don't believe that the english decolonisation post WW2 could have occurred without WW2. And yes many of the southern slave states did end up having their english masters exchanged for amerikan ones. Nevertheless there was also plenty of room to manouver for loosened shackles during the 50 year transition period. So from this part of the world the millions of dead in WW2 may have prevented the deaths of at least that many, maybe more deaths, up here in the south of the planet.
Now that is a fucking harsh way to look at the world, even if it is a mirror image of the way most in the north look at the South, it prolly wouldn't sit well with most southerners especially those still in touch with their indigenous culture.
That attitude is only viable if the fight escalates, something which seems increasingly unlikely especially now that Saakashvili has been exposed in the foreign media as 'the boy who cried wolf'. I have no doubt that his moronic intervention into South Ossetia was a clumsy attempt to regain his regime's popularity in Georgia by uniting the Georgians against the common enemy. It was doomed to failure just as Olmert's bloodier attempt to pull off the same trick in Israel failed.
However I did watch the 'show' last night on the BBC, which was the first time. For the past week I have used downloaded documentaries as lullabys - the Olympic farce of humanism perverted into nationalistic jingoism cranks me up rather than lulls me to sleep. Some observations:
Saakashvili and Co's claim of Russians in Gori accompanied as it was by assertions that the Russian are invading to re-subjugate Georgia was not for domestic consumption. Why does Saakashvili make his historic speeches to press conferences where the lingua franca is english? Any politician who doesn't talk to his people in their native language at such a time of crisis that Saakashvili and Co claim Georgia is in, is not a pol who cares for his citizens.
The thing that really got my goat before the Beeb finally 'fessed up and admitted the Gori invasion was a figment of Saakashvili and Co's imagination, was that if Gori and the towns close to South Ossetia were under threat of a Russian attack followed by ethnic cleansing, what were the Georgian military priorities. Instead of reinforcing the defences of Gori to provide breathing room for the citizens to evacuate or fight for their homes, the Georgian army retreats in a rout leaving the citizens unprotected. Saakashvili and Co claimed from the start that regime change was the primary Russian objective. Even if it had been, surely the best way to prevent regime change is to protect the voters. If Saakashvili were popular with his citizens, regime change would be much harder to effect.
However this talk of regime change brings me to the nub of my concerns about the 'blue' in Georgia. Someone commented here previously that it seems when the BBC newsreaders interview Russian Foreign Ministry spokespeople, that they are auditioning for that worthless beeb prog "Hardtalk". For the unitiated the interviewers in Hardtalk pretend to be tough. That is if you imagine that ill mannered interviweing is incisive interviewing. Be that as it may, every time the Beeb talking head made a claim about Russian aggression, the Russian spokesman would counter with "just like Iraq/Kosovo/Lebanon" eg "Is it true that russian troops have ignored Georgian sovereignty?" "How is that different from US troops invading the sovereign state of Iraq?" or "So Russia advocates South Ossettia being split from Georgia" "Exactly as Kosovo has been split from Serbia". you get the drift.
I am sad to see that the 'amerika did it too' or 'USuk have done worse' defense for Russia's actions is being used by some here too.
I'll try and explain why I reckon this is such a bad move for those who believe humans should have some sort of self determination.
All of russia's moves may be entirely legitimate and ethically pure. They probably are correct in the claim that what Russia is up to is no way any less legitimate than amerika or USuk's invasions, rapes and murders.
The problem is that if Russia continues to use amerikan aggression to legitimate their actions, they don't just legitimate what Russia is up to. A sort of cross legitimization occurs where the legitimation of Russia's adventure excuses amerika's crimes.
That may be fine for Russia, even for Russians, but it doesn't bode well for the rest of us who live in smaller sovereign entities. If amerika and russia agree they have a right to inflict their will on lesser states, we will go back to the world being divided between two huge empires with injustices abounding throughout.
It is true that planet earth became a much tougher place for most humans to exist after the collapse of the USSR. The leaders of sovereign states smaller than the two behemoths could no longer balance one against the other to find a mid point of survivability, but now that the 'major players' all claim to share the same economic ethos it is unlikely that tightrope walking of the type perfected by Nasser of Egypt or Sukarno of Indonesia will be achievable. The latest iteration of a world order will be rather different than the one before last ie the 'Cold War' era. None of the above would be my response in the unlikely event of my being asked which umbrella I would prefer to stand under.
In the meantime of course the anglo media is trying hard to twist the reality. eg The Guardian has a lead article which says: Russians march into Georgia as full-scale war looms.
· Claims of full scale invasion
· Retreat to defend Tbilisi
· Kremlin ignores ceasefire calls
Close reading of the text shows all of those claims to be untrue just the ravings of the Georgian govt. My favourite part is the quote towards the end.
"This is a full-scale invasion." said Irakli Batkuashvili, head of Georgia's military planning division. "This is an occupation... Half of Georgia is under Russian control. Our aim now is to build up our troops and to create a defensive line in front of Tbilisi."
I thought things must have changed drastically in the last 10 hours which would have been the middle of the night so I went looking for the Guardian's map of this new horror. It isn't really available at a click it is a downloadable pdf which many readers will eschew discouraged by the hassle. Deliberate? prolly just one more piss weak effort at twisting the reality of this killing zone. If you download it you will see the bits where Russia is alleged to be, barely make up 10% of Georgia.
I'm not sure that the propaganda has been effective. My own extremely conservative fishwrap has been running a readers views column inviting readers to say who they believe is to blame.
Even after a series of ad hominem attacks on the posters from amerika and Georgia the posts heavily favour some combination of Georgia/amerika/Israel as being responsible for the killings.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Aug 12 2008 10:24 utc | 92
wow, even the Wall Street Journal is critical of the cheney administration's handling of Saakashvili's attempt to break into the big time. Strange how Murdoch already has moved on to the next puppet and casually throws the old one into the trash.
"Let me say at this point that there are no good solutions. Either we have to try to remove them (the Russians) by force or accept a humiliating defeat," said Dimitri Simes, founding president of the Nixon Center in Washington.
Posted by: dan of steele | Aug 12 2008 10:27 utc | 93
What strikes me is that the discussion is taking place on different distinct layers.
Booman is focused on elections and the US political establishment, above all the election of the new emperor. The emperor can not, will not be opposed to empire and the rival factions only differ on the details of running the empire. Of course the new prince is romoured to be more liberal then the ruling czar, but then as Kropotkin noted, that is always the case. This might appear a weird perspective from over here, but I am not surprised to see it, and given that framing I do not find his positions strange.
Then there is the narrative fight. An important one, as we have learned. Narratives matter, and the US neocon/Georgian nationalist one should not be given a free pass for its lies.
The geopolitical one should not be forgotten. Russia is countering the US empire building, and at the same time widening its own sphere of influence. Alternative-empire sums it up. As Debs noted, this can be rather bad news. I am thinking about the 19th century competition of empires and zones of influence. Generally bad news for the locals. Especially if they motivate bad behaviour by pointing fingers at the other empire.
Which brings us to last level, the human one. People are dying in Georgia, sacrificed by their political leaders (lets bring back the times when kings where supposed to lead the charge) and I do not know if it matters when you are dying if you consider yourself Ossetian, Georgian, Russian, Abkhaz or something else. While we can treat this as a game on the levels stated above, on a human level it simply is not a game.
Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Aug 12 2008 12:03 utc | 94
Yes, but who are...Hands of the puppeteer?
Tina Modotti
1929
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Aug 18 2008 6:29 utc | 95
‘The Georgian president chews over his next move’
Posted by: Uncle $cam | Aug 18 2008 12:06 utc | 96
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Just noting that the 'Russian cyberattack on Estonia' as it was called turned out to be one russian-estonian computer student.
Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Aug 11 2008 15:25 utc | 1