Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 20, 2008
Faith and International Relations

Atheists or, more general, ‘western’ non-believers have difficulties to understand faithful people. The consequence is that we tend to analyze and interpret international relations in a sole ‘western’ secular framework. We assume that our framework is the ‘right’ one because our morals, values and judgments that make up that framework are the ‘right’ ones.

The neo-cons and liberal interventionists think we should and can remake other societies in our image. But people in faithful societies see themselves as made in the image of their god. That competitor is hard to beat.

Ryan J. Maher, a Jesuit who has been teaching theology for international affairs students in Qatar, points out:

During my two years in Qatar, I learned that many of my students approached discussions of faith and religion with an intensity and passion that differed in kind, not just in degree, from what I had grown accustomed to in the United States. Sure, there were those, Muslim and Christian alike, who were more interested in arguing than learning. But there were many more for whom religion was something more profound: the outward manifestation of an inner relationship with the divine.


The majority of people I know in higher education would argue that there is nothing wrong with religion for people who feel they need it. Their sentiments come down to something like this: "You have your religious convictions, I have mine. Let’s acknowledge our differences and agree to disagree with one another within the confines of polite debate."


This template for discussing religion and faith is fundamentally flawed. It presumes that different groups of faithful people approach their religions in the same way football fans approach their favorite teams: .. For people of faith, religion isn’t like that. A person of Muslim faith and a person of Christian faith engaged in honest conversation about religion are not like two fans pulling for their respective teams. They are more like two men in love with the same woman, each trying to express, safeguard and be faithful to his relationship with his beloved. Love brings with it complexities that football does not.

A Jesuit should probably use a better picture than two men in love with the same women, but I think the general idea here is correct.

People without faith have their subjective rational. For them it is
difficult to ‘get’ the subjective rational of people with intense
faith. Vice-versa probably applies. That is not an argument for or
against following a religion. It is to point out that one needs to
leave ones on subjective rational to understand the other. That is
neither easy nor without fear. It also takes time.

Pat Lang recently picked that theme up again with regards to the Middle East:

The
local cultures in the Middle East and Islamic "worlds" are very
strong.  They are likely to change at their own pace, influenced by the
flood tides of information in the world today, but they will strongly
resist change at anyone else’s pace.

The belief that outsiders can "manage" that change is as destructive today as it has always been.

I
think the argument is also right with regard to religions others than
Islam. Do we understand deeply Buddhist Burma? Do we understand how
faithful Hindi think?

I have argued the issue before in a piece about the Russian president Dmitry Medvedev.

Medvedev
is now the leader of the Orthodox-Christian realm. He and the Russian
voters and the Orthodox-Christian people elsewhere are aware of this.
The "west" is not.

We are faithful that our believe
in democratic states, universal justice and enlightenment is right. But
to many those are relative things and there are alternatives to each.
We may not like those and we have the right to disregard them within
our communities. We have no right to press others communities into our
frames. Doing so will lead to conflicts we might well lose.

Comments

surely essence permeates the universe, and the universe cannot actually be divorced from essence, without ceasing to be the universe.
yes, surely.
The deadening in western thought is not the scientific method….No, the deadening I spoke of is the materialistic outlook. It is far removed from the subtle, creative transformation the Greeks made from religion to theater and philosophy.
interesting you should make this comparison since i had just finished reviewing metaphysics, which was woven as part of aancient science.
to expanad a little more on what i mean by ‘lie’. you mention
if telling a lie means to substitute an illusion of value in the place of real value, then it is in some sense like theft.
i could be conceived that way because you are ‘stealing truth’. however when i use terms like evil or lie or non existence these all are very extreme and while possibly containing the essence of what i mean, they subtract from one’s ability to comprehend because they sound so harsh. what i mean is that very little in life comes from seeing things in a pure way w/out the filter of who we have become and our judgements of what we see.
this is hard to explain and i am going to work on it and post in a little while..the idea of theft doesn’t address the creation of what becomes created thru absence of truth. how to value transformation based on truth vs lies?

Posted by: annie | Jul 25 2008 19:40 utc | 101

b, thank you.
copeland, i would associate the ‘deadening’ w/ things existing that have manifested from falseness instead of truth. when you describe this as ‘theft’ it does imply an ‘absense’ of what was or could have been. but unfortunately since everything has consequence and transforms, the ‘value’ of truth and nontruth can be equal and weigh equally in ones conscious as well as in material form. if truth represents essense and existence why can’t that which represents ‘absence’ be ‘non existence’ in terms of how it represents essence? (because by virtue of being transformed from non truth it cannot materialize w/essense although it can materialize, ie materialization absent essense equals deadening). dead matter. matter without ‘being’.
the deadening I spoke of is the materialistic outlook
while i hear you describing an outlook as ‘dead’, can you understand how i might attribute the materialism that leads to that outlook (or accompanies it, or follows it) as also being ‘dead’ or representing ‘non existence’?
while original scientists studied not only the matter and the spirit (how right and left brain of them) the separation of the two arenas led to a competition or a need to distance in terms of validity. (from wiki link)…

The Scientific Revolution, however, made natural philosophy an empirical and experimental activity unlike the rest of philosophy, and by the end of the eighteenth century it had begun to be called “science” in order to distinguish it from philosophy. Thereafter, metaphysics became the philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence. Thus the original situation of metaphysics being integral with (Aristotelian) physics and science, has, in the West, become reversed so that scientists generally consider metaphysics antithetical to the empirical sciences.

who knows where all this pondering is going to take me. one thing that stood out..
What God would not wish to exist without, is I believe, what is fashioned as essence into us, when we are made. This I take it, is what is meant by “created in the image of God”.
personally, i don’t believe (or experience) god makes wishes. i think god is simply what is, what has beingness. and yes, we are all fashioned w/this essence but from before we are born we are products of an environment already impacted by this deadness you reference. from the moments we are conceived we are products of our environments. some of that being ‘natural’. but the difference between what is natural and what isn’t is vast both in the physical/ emotional and spiritual reality. as vast as the water is polluted and the air is full of smog humans are assaulted daily by varying degrees of pain and lies some of us starting from the womb of an alcoholic entering to a world of child abuse. how much nature/god impacts our beings vs the pollutants/lies impacting our being how will we ever know. so the cycle continues.
man and nature. man and god. man kills nature. man conquers nature. or can he/she? does god wish, or does god just be and we can all find out what reality is by looking at our own image, or looking within at the patterns of our minds and those we see around us? while i don’t believe god wishes i do believe god is force of nature and i do have faith it will prevail. what choice do i have? a nuclear end? god will prevail, whether man survives is another story.

Posted by: annie | Jul 25 2008 23:12 utc | 102

annie,
You’ve gone deeper into the subject; and this deadening we’re talking about impacts the soul, how a person belongs to the universe because of a connection to its essence.
i would associate the ‘deadening’ w/ things existing that have manifested from falseness instead of truth…if truth represents essense and existence why can’t that which represents ‘absence’ be ‘non existence’ in terms of how it represents essence?
Non-existence is hard to grasp, as there is no being to that which is not. For the young especially, the dreadful impact of the ‘absence’, the disconnect, –what Simone Weil called “uprootedness”, deracinement, is gradually turning our world into a sterile alternatve world.
yes, we are all fashioned w/this essence but from before we are born we are products of an environment already impacted by this deadness you reference. from the moments we are conceived we are products of our environments. some of that being ‘natural’. but the difference between what is natural and what isn’t is vast both in the physical/ emotional and spiritual reality.
Do you read Adbusters Magazine? I’ve found it to be a quality resource where this materialism, and its consequent deadening of our world, is examined carefully, in some detail, from a number of perspectives.

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 26 2008 3:46 utc | 103

deadening of our world… what, this here little capitalist downward spiral spitting in the face of the ever dwindling “wild west” that humbled/enraged many a pilgrim in this “new world” they cursed with a bland replication of thoughtless forms that still, to this day, spreads like cancer over landscapes subdued by the ugly edifices of consumer exchange; parasitic strip malls and endless suburban sprawl…
the west is sick but insists on replication. adbusters walks a tentative line, trying to turn the psychic weapons of marketing against the deep pockets that run the picture game. give them credit; at least they’re trying, and the work they’ve done promoting fringe economists who dare deviate from the neoclassical status quo should be recognized and appreciated.

Posted by: Lizard | Jul 26 2008 5:53 utc | 104

Sorry folks, excitable boy
toodles

Posted by: jcairo | Jul 26 2008 8:45 utc | 105

Don’t go too far jcairo.
We care for you.

Posted by: beq | Jul 26 2008 17:49 utc | 106

no worries jcairo

Posted by: annie | Jul 26 2008 18:21 utc | 107

copeland, thanks for turning me on to adbusters, i’d never heard of it. got a little lost reading their articles this morn, a good range.
Non-existence is hard to grasp, as there is no being to that which is not.
i know. i still question tho whether existing w/out being (materialization from dead or falseness) qualifies as true or real ‘existence’. it’s a kicker. last night i was pondering man’s ability to transform thru love, or to embed ‘being’, or breath life, or shine truth on what is unknown.
ah well, thank you for sticking w/me in this rambling, and b for creating the space for us to throw about random concepts.
and the work they’ve done promoting fringe economists who dare deviate from the neoclassical status quo should be recognized and appreciated.
did you read thier latest articles The Economics of Happiness or Capitalism Under Assault?

Unger proposes that the government both tax and invest heavily. Voting should be made mandatory, as should savings. These measures would buffer the economy from the influence of international investors. This flies against the textbooks that say governments should prostrate themselves to foreign investment. Growth would not come from big business then, but from Brazil’s small enterprises. Instead of a tiny business elite dropping crumbs for the country’s poor, a broad middle class of small business entrepreneurs would form Brazil’s engine of growth. These small enterprises would get access to the credit and tax benefits that big businesses more typically enjoy. The benefits of the market should be shared broadly, not monopolized by big business.

Posted by: annie | Jul 26 2008 18:36 utc | 108

jcairo,
Exitable is good. Cheers, mate.

Posted by: Tantalus | Jul 26 2008 22:33 utc | 109

what the hell, maybe there is a supreme being.
Moon-walker claims alien contact cover-up

FORMER NASA astronaut and moon-walker Dr Edgar Mitchell – a veteran of the Apollo 14 mission – has stunningly claimed aliens exist.
And he says extra-terrestrials have visited Earth on several occasions – but the alien contact has been repeatedly covered up by governments for six decades.
Dr Mitchell, 77, said during a radio interview that sources at the space agency who had had contact with aliens described the beings as ‘little people who look strange to us.’

Posted by: dan of steele | Jul 26 2008 23:27 utc | 110

@87
a least i didn’t get a tattoo.
its never too late.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Jul 27 2008 1:07 utc | 111

Perhaps, we can at least have a symbiotic relationship with faith, or a god if you will, but first we should understand what this god is; the Parasite God, to better understand what we are…
Because, brothers, sisters, the only evil I have ever known, just as the only good I have ever experienced has and wears skin; you and me brother/sister you and me…
Because, as it is, If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated…”
If one good deed in all myh life I did,
I do repent it from my very soul.
~Titus Andronicus , 5. 3

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 27 2008 4:55 utc | 112

LORDS OF THE NEW CHURCH

Video games train the kids for war. Army chic in high-fashion
stores. Law and order’s done their job. Prisons filled while
the rich still rob. Assassination politics. Violence rules
within’ our nation’s midst. Well ignorance is their power tool.
You’ll only know what they want you to know. The television
cannot lie. Controlling media with smokescreen eyes. Nuclear
politicians picture show. The acting’s lousy but the blind don’t
know. They scare us all with threats of war. So we forget
just how bad things are. You taste the fear when you’re all
alone. They gonna git’cha when you’re on your own. The silence
of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy. You gotta
wake up from your sleep. ‘Cause meek inherits earth…six feet
deep.
Open your eyes see the lies right in front of ya.
Open your eyes…..

Here’s my church: pray w/me…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 27 2008 5:20 utc | 113

But uncle! your an depressive existentialist!
hahaha…
perhaps one of my fave authors should explain…
Colin Wilson on Peak Experience

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 27 2008 5:45 utc | 114

uncle, the lyrics of parasite god
We are floating – Above the mountains.
Watching all the tiny people.
How they waste themselves away.
Obey themselves away.
How willingly – They lay their love.
How willingly – They sacrifice themselves,
To the locust master – to the one that drowned the world.
They love their Parasite God – Yet they crucify me.
How willingly – They lay their love.
How willingly – They sacrifice themselves,
To the bringer of hunger – To the one that drowned the world.
They love their Parasite God – Yet they crucify me.
I want to be your Parasite God.
So I can show you who you really are.
I want to be your Parasite God.
So I can show you who you really are.
They love their Parasite God – Yet they crucify me.

sounds like the god of non existence. ie evil/devil.
So I can show you who you really are.
is that’s what it takes to bring salvation? will it require the recognition of the Duopoly of Deceit for us to see who we really are?
dos, !!! aliens! lol thanks for the zinger.
jony its never too late.
it is for me, i don’t like pain. period. plus, the markings. i am too paranoid. why make it easier for them to identify me if push comes to shove?
_b_cool? that’s the plan.

Posted by: annie | Jul 27 2008 6:00 utc | 115

uncle, thanks for the Colin Wilson link. he’s got an energy..

Posted by: annie | Jul 27 2008 6:14 utc | 116

“Lord- Protect my image, and make this note innocuous enough that, if found, it will re-enforce my carefully-plotted appearance of piety. Please bless my PR people.”
Israeli paper publishes Obama’s stolen Western [wailing] Wall prayer
hahahaha….

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 27 2008 15:29 utc | 117

At Uncle $ 117
Yes, it’s funny, but also brilliant. Presumably it will “set the
agenda” for at least the next week, as McCain strives to find an appropriate “answer to Obama’s prayer. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
and one of those rare moments when it’s fun to watch the PR wizards working their magic on the masses thirsting for enlightenment.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Jul 28 2008 5:31 utc | 118