Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 27, 2008
Moral Relativism

"It is all relative," says the Queen of Hearts U.S. Justice Department.

"The fact that an act is undertaken to prevent a threatened terrorist attack, rather than for the purpose of humiliation or abuse, would be relevant to a reasonable observer in measuring the outrageousness of the act," said Brian A. Benczkowski, a deputy assistant attorney general, in the letter, which had not previously been made public.

In one letter written Sept. 27, 2007, Mr. Benczkowski argued that “to rise to the level of an outrage” and thus be prohibited under the Geneva Conventions, conduct “must be so deplorable that the reasonable observer would recognize it as something that should be universally condemned.”

Sandy Levinson pinpoints the weakness of this claim:

There is, of course, a certain logical paradox here: The very fact that the some US interrogator would suggest that some particular conduct is "reasonable" in some situation would, by definition, mean that there is not "universal" condemnnation of the practice.

The easy test for such arguments as Mr. Benczkowski puts forward  is of course to apply them to the other site. When the U.S. threatened war on Iraq would Saddam have been justified to nuke New York? "Yes," says the Justice Department.

The fact that an act is undertaken to prevent a threatened terrorist attack, rather than for the purpose of humiliation or abuse, would be relevant to a reasonable observer in measuring the outrageousness of the act.

Levinson again:

Once one allows what might be termed "purity of utilitarian motive" to dominate the analysis, the game is over, for there will always be those who will argue that it is worth doing practically anything to forestall any "terrorist attack."

Comments

From b’s OT #85: “The fact that an act is undertaken to prevent a threatened terrorist attack, rather than for the purpose of humiliation or abuse, would be relevant to a reasonable observer in measuring the outrageousness of the act,”
That defense doesn’t seem to fly so well if a person is convicted of using marijuana for medicinal purposes rather than for recreation, nor if a person engages in armed robbery to feed their families rather than for their own personal enrichment. The only difference that I can see is that the individuals in my examples are not agents of the state. It’s a truly precarious legal argument: Intent during the commission of a criminal act makes a difference in sentencing as long as the defendant is wealthy and/or well-connected.
While I believe that the law should observe mitigating circumstances, how is intent in these particular torture cases to be divined? We should take it on faith that torture was applied to prevent future crimes and not merely because some well-connected sadists get their rocks off by doing it simply because they said it was so? And isn’t the process of torture itself, based on the motive provided by this deputy assistant attorney general, punishment inflicted upon persons who have yet to be convicted of anything for crimes they might commit in the future? While both disgusting and anti- if not outright un-Constitutional, this latter would be a logical course of action for those who brought us a policy of preemptive war.
Consistency might be the bugbear of my particular small mind, but the US judicial system seems to have become increasingly arbitrary and capricious. This being the case, I am forced to conclude that I have not been relative enough in my own observation of the law. If an action is convenient to my own ends, I no longer see why I should be any more bound by the observance of the law than those individuals who create and execute them. As a potential criminal, I find this very liberating.
Just as the institution of the death penalty perpetuates the premise that there are always times when it is acceptable and even virtuous to end another’s life– leading directly to higher rates of “noble” crimes of passion– I can not but conclude from all of this that the law is a mere set of “quaint notions” that do not need to be observed when it is inconvenient for us to do so. I have no doubts that other US citizens will, at least unconsciously, reach the same conclusion here.I am not suggesting that the poor and poorly-connected would not continue to be prosecuted for violations of these increasingly elastic concepts; I am saying there will be more incidences to prosecute as people internalize the message clearly presented here that “wrongness” only applies to the actions of others.
This is all old hat and I have typed these very arguments before. The same rationales for what is clearly illegal and immoral continue to be recycled and continue to be as fallacious the ninth, tenth and eleventh times we see them. The blatherings of an alcoholic who tries to justify their habit are less wearying to me than the flimsy arguments that continue to be raised by these virtuous and patriotic torture- and war-porn addicts.

Posted by: Monolycus | Apr 27 2008 7:48 utc | 1

Two Important Petitions Regarding Torture

Always it seems when it rains, it falls (my apologies to the Morton people), and it seems true even when it comes to petitions.
First, the American Freedom Campaign has a petition online calling on House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers “to subpoena John Ashcroft and John Yoo so that they can explain their role in enabling torture.” This comes on the heels of Yoo’s statement that he would not testify before the House as “invited” on May 9.
Unless there’s significant public pressure, it seems unlikely Yoo, Ashcroft, or anyone else — including Torturer-in-Chief George W. Bush, and his Vice-Torturer Dick Cheney — will be held accountable. Go sign the AFC petition today.
Meanwhile, some of my colleagues, who are fighting within the American Psychological Association to change that organization’s position on having psychologists participate in interrogations at Guantanamo and other U.S. military and CIA sites, are petitioning the APA to allow a referendum on the interrogations issues.
I think the initiators of the petition have a long, difficult road ahead of them if they want to get this referendum before the APA membership. But the recent results of the nominating stage for the APA presidency, where anti-torture candidate and APA critic Steven Reisner won the plurality of the vote, shows that they have a chance, and that the normally placid APA membership may be getting fed up with its leadership’s policies. The petition requires signatures from 1% of current APA members in order to be brought before the entire APA membership for a direct vote.
I encourage all members in good standing of APA to support this call and sign the petition for a referendum. — Sorry, this particular petition is only for APA members. If you want to support those who are working on this issue, go to the website of Psychologists for an Ethical APA.
What follows is the text of the call for a referendum.

“One day I tell you they’ll make a memory machine
to wax our hearts to a blinding sheen to wash away the grief…
if they can make machines save us labor
one day they’ll do our hearts the very same favor”

-The Dismemberment Plan

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Apr 27 2008 10:42 utc | 2

The fact that an act is undertaken to prevent a threatened terrorist attack
The very fact that the some US interrogator would suggest that some particular conduct is “reasonable”

notice the different usage of the term ‘fact’. a fact needs to be verifiable (Levinson). one cannot attribute the qualifications of fact to mere allegations (justice dept).

Posted by: annie | Apr 27 2008 14:22 utc | 3

should read..
“The excuse that an act is undertaken to prevent a threatened terrorist attack, rather than for the purpose of humiliation or abuse, could be relevant to an observer in measuring the outrageousness of the act.”

Posted by: annie | Apr 27 2008 14:27 utc | 4

sorry, one more thing..’could be contrived as relevant’

Posted by: annie | Apr 27 2008 14:32 utc | 5

boils down to ..monolycus how is intent in these particular torture cases to be divined?
missing emails, secret files, closed energy/torture meetings…all to thwart us from discovering intent for any of their war crimes. a cheney/addington culture of abusing laws thru creating myths of justifiable intents.

Posted by: annie | Apr 27 2008 14:49 utc | 6

Of the various ways to treat a person (or an animal) under one’s care, torture (the inflicting of pain) serves to gratify the sexual appetite of the care-giver. This being so, why not allow that the care-giver, acting on the opportunity as it arises, “intends” to gratify this instinct?
The wonder of it all is our loss of control over the appetite itself–collectively (bearing in mind that Bush won the election in 2004).

Posted by: alabama | Apr 27 2008 15:41 utc | 7

Respectively, Alabama, Bush did not “win” the election in 2004. While the theft was less obvious than 2000, the result was the same. The gloves are off. The hidden hand is not so hidden anymore.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 27 2008 15:57 utc | 8

all torture must be conducted in the presence of at least five officers, each representing a concerned branch/agency of the Federal government. And each torture session must generate a fully signed report to include detailed transcripts. Plus an additional video-tape requirement for all scheduled torture as well as all sessions within torture chambers that have achieved level-OUCH compliance with the GAO’s no-torture-left-behind audio-visual review standard.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Apr 27 2008 16:18 utc | 9

It’s 2008, Lizard, and the question of “torture” as an invariant feature of American political and social behavior has yet to be addressed in efficient, meaningful ways.
You tell me that Bush twice stole the election, and I’m certainly inclined to agree. But how does it come about that a thief who’s also a sadist on a global scale can proceed apace without being stopped in his tracks? Few and far between are those who object, and they lack the clout to make their point be heard, let alone acted upon. I rather begin to believe that we don’t have any serious problems with Bush–which is another way of saying that we may well indeed share his problems more than we care to recognize.
I don’t intend to stop making this point. I intend to make to more strongly. I intend to make it well.

Posted by: alabama | Apr 27 2008 16:36 utc | 10

violence seems so central to the reality of america – especially disproportionate violence – whether it was used against the indians, whether it was in the way slaves were owned & treated, whether it was they way that organisations of the working class were completely demolished(the beautiful film by abraham polonsky – ‘choice of evil’ – just another elucidation of the adoration & use of violence as the only method) – their ‘military’ strategy (& i would argue that it is not military at all but rather a culture entrapped in the use of violence) is the use of overwhelming force. even if that has failed them all along – torture just bceomes a part of a contingent continuum of that adoration of violence
that corrupt artifact of culture -’24’ – does not have sex scenes – it has torture scenes – the completely false bauer theorem – that to save a million – you need to do harm to some, grave harm, illegal harm, unconstitutional harm – has become something that american culture celebrates in fact or covertly
those united states talks a lot about war but only uses violence – overwhelming violence – & the martial character of islamic culture envelops military strategy but only in rare examples does it adore violence in quite the same way as a young american culture has integrated it deeply , as i have suggested as a malignancy
so, then i am not so surprised that within american culture – there has been little practical opposition to the use of torture

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 27 2008 16:57 utc | 11

& when the suicide bombers say they love death – it holds no fear for them – i think the cultural roots of this dictum lie nowhere in islam but are in fact the transplanted ‘heroicisation of terror’ that has been pat & parcel of the cultural cretinism that has been an elemental export from those united states
when the suicide bombers think they have their roots in islam – sadly it is to stephen seagal & to arnold shwarzeneger – that their real roots lie
their apocalyptic messianism has more to do with twentieth century fox than it has to do with scripture of anh holy book

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 27 2008 18:39 utc | 12

“Culture”
is violence cultural, really?
Seems more accurate to the reality to say that empire demands cruelty, that the only way to make people serve the empire rather than their own happiness is to teach them that there are reasons for depriving people, for selecting the choice that makes the most people unhappy.
How else can a person be trained to choose unhappiness? Culture – is the answer given. And that answer wastes our efforts.
Not cultural, political. As a matter of course, the leaders and profiteers of U.S. empire powerfully insist that people fall in line with violence, insist that violence be construed and propagated as the normal way of shaping human relations. Without this, the empire tears itself in millions of groaning protests and rebellions against suffering.
Culture? Culture is the word by which we justify violence, the word by which anthropologists spy out the weak spots of people who own plunderable resources, and publicize those delicate secrets. Culture is an excuse for brutalizing those who have “defective culture”, when what they really are is servants. By choice, highly constrained choice, people serve violent leaders.
Americans violent culturally? Delusion.
Americans violent in their grasp of power? Precisely.
less idealism, more materialism, please.

Posted by: citizen | Apr 27 2008 20:51 utc | 13

But politics is a cultural artefact. Consider Japan before the West came knocking on the door, and ancient Egypt. They were repressive, hierarchically centralized political entities, though not imperial in any expansionist sense. And they were governed by Gods. How would one draw a “political/cultural” distinction in scenes like these?

Posted by: alabama | Apr 27 2008 21:41 utc | 14

w reich would also argue that politics is a cultural artefact (& did so in two milestone books) & it is in this sense that i give argument here
i am further suggesting that the miltary force or those united states is more simply the organisation of violence, or more aptly the application of overwhelming violence – neither as tactics or strategy – but as impulses – cultural impulses
in the same way that the organised violence of fascism in its attack on the east did not represent a resource war as we would now call it(except perhaps oil in baku, wheat in ukraine etc) – rather it represented a cultural impulse – a wish to anhilate which was culturally determined

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 27 2008 22:04 utc | 15

Alabama: yes, it’s insane Bush&Co have not been stopped by millions of disgusted Amerikans out in the streets raising hell, just like it’s insane a war vet, who spent time as a POW, and who tried putting legislation through to stop the inhumane treatment of prisoners, has rolled over to let the sadists scratch his belly. maybe remembereringgiap is right: our cultural imprinting is over saturated with gratuitous violence to the point of malignancy. The propaganda show “24” is the quintessential example of how many amerikans are conditioned to accept the criminal behavior of their leadership.
It’s 2008, yes, and eight years of this bullshit has browbeaten most amerikans into accepting that they are powerless to stop these unelected war criminals, which is of course completely untrue. I mean how fucking bad does it have to get before people realize we have sociopaths playing roulette with millions of innocent lives? This country needs to quit whining about economic collapse and start learning the hard lessons we’ve buried deep down in our small, violent minds. What is it going to take?

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 27 2008 22:08 utc | 16

i’ve often spoken here of dreiser & dos passos & to a lesser extent upton sinclair but when you read their books there can be little doubt whatsoever – what constitutes the culture of american violence. these writers witnessed & wrote of it nearly a century ago – one of their inheritors – hunter s thompson – a very american enunciator – wrote just until his last breath about the breathtaking corruption within american culture

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 27 2008 22:16 utc | 17

The God in the case of Japan was the Emperor, that’s the meaning, yes?
Assuming so, first off, the Emperor was not in charge, but rather a figurehead to whom all swore themselves to be serving. This is better understood as historical rather than cultural, because it was not idealist culture, but rather the mere need for historical consistency on the part of any shogun (general) who expected to receive consistent service from other humans.
As a matter of the history that validated shogunal rule, the title of Shogun derived from the emperor, and it was a winning strategy to ‘serve’ in the shadow of a figurehead. [After all, as Dick Cheney knows, better to make up your own new branch of government than to be bound by law and tradition.] Not culture – rather a sheer logic (or dialectic) of power, power that uses history to justify itself and vanquish challengers.
The weak spot was the emperor, and it was the rebels against the Shogun (sorry, no credit to the West, this door was already on its own way open, and Perry et al could bomb all the cities they wanted but only landed because the shogun allowed it to save the castles and fortifications. Too bad for the shogun, that made him a very poor barbarian quelling great general (a loose translation of his full title). So again, it is politics because the shogunal house failed its political assignment. And the extant political strategy of crushing enemies in the name of the emperor meant the shogun would be crushed in the same name. Not culture, but rather political rhetoric and the recurring historical need to crush old rulers with their own rhetorical weapons.
Why object to “culture” when one can see places to fit that word into this description? Because to accept that word is to pretend that we really are made up of rhetoric. What will we benefit from identifying people with their delusions? More delusions. One can see people’s humanity not as residing in their rhetoric, but rather in their awareness.
Is this materialist? Maybe.
History happens and the power of an individual against society is to not accept the flawed characterizations that politics (relating to others as a matter of power) gives us to choose, if we will, among unanimously bad options. Awareness is the only logical path to freedom.
Awareness, for a materialist, is the only way not to serve the bastards. Without it, every option available is not our own. Despair.
For these reasons, it may matter to refuse to identify people with “their culture”.
Can we respect a people after we call them slaves, slaves by nature (or to culture)? How?
Why not speak in registers of history and freedom (awareness)? How else can we attempt to speak a word to save even one sentient being?

Posted by: citizen | Apr 27 2008 22:22 utc | 18

If, when by “culture” one means a swamp of traps and sticky masks, no disagreement here.
But if it means, “that person is its delusions”, then disagreement and fear.
Too many people are ready to agree that they are ready to die for the Emperor….
.. or whatever delusion is current.
Why identify someone as an enemy and cement them there? You will die by that sword. Why did the masters hate MLK, Jr? Because he loved people and could inspire them to change. Which is merely to say, he knew that he and they weren’t their culture.
This is tactics.

Posted by: citizen | Apr 27 2008 22:31 utc | 19

Apologies if I am talking above my actual level of awareness, but I have learned to trust my allergies, and this word has made me feel ill since I was a boy.
YMMV

Posted by: citizen | Apr 27 2008 22:36 utc | 20

citizen
complicity is a construct maintain through culture & i’d suggest that since the wars on central & latin america – the scale of this complicity has been heartbreaking

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 27 2008 22:46 utc | 21

rejection of certain facets of “culture” have to be re-enforced continuously in order to stick, and I believe violence is one of them.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Apr 27 2008 22:52 utc | 22

r’giap, alabama, jbc
agreed that culture is a tool of violence. But not that it is one of awareness.
I imagine Reich’s use of the term was also critical, that is, engaged in removing veils and misconceptions. My main objection is that when I am addressed about America’s culture, part of me is tempted to say identify with that culture, and think that the problem is not merely internal, but inevitable. I’d prefer not to identify with the death in me. Likewise, why tempt others to identify with what is dead and inert?

Posted by: citizen | Apr 27 2008 22:59 utc | 23

I also struggle with the definition of amerikan culture having an imperative of violence not necessarily for the same reasons as citizen though.
Amerikan society is both historically and culturally an extension of european society. amerika didn’t just ‘happen’ it became a logical extension of european expansion into other territories. That it has continued to expand pretty much unceasingly since inception is one reason amerika has never had to confront the violence within it’s society. The ‘frontier’ mentality which 20th century academics were so enamoured of has always provided an outlet for violence directed or channeled as citizen says, by the powerful elites within amerikan society, but also within the european society that amerika is an extension of. European mercenaries fought on both sides in the amerikan revolution and in the amerikan civil war. Before amerika was independent of european elites it served as a proxy for their expansion and an outlet for the violent within their societies. When amerika had more independent elites, and european colonialism was in stasis, amerika still provided an outlet for the violent among european society.
Go and see ‘Rescue Dawn’ a story based upon the life of Dieter Dengler. Herzog has twisted reality to make Dengler appear more than what he was in the ‘escape’ from poor Laotian peasants that resulted in the death of many Laotians, but these facts are unchallenged. Dengler was subjected to the violence of amerikan bombing raids in germany during WW2. When he grew up he moved to amerika to join the airforce and bomb the beejesus outta the innocent people of Laos whose only crime seems to have been to live their lives as always, unaware of borders drawn on maps in 19th century europe.
Attempting to separate amerikan use of violence to achieve capitalist outcomes from european use of violence to achieve those same ends of wealth and power is as fallacious as it is self defeating.
Any success in preventing the use of violence by amerikan entities to achieve their ends without addressing the same issue within european society would mean that the shift to amerika as the centre of colonialist expansion would simply be reversed.
The greedy and power hungry would move their operations back to the europe they had initiated those operations.
French soldiers and administrators had no problem torturing Algerians in the 1950’s and 60’s, what has changed since then that would prevent them from repeating that if the demise of amerika as torture central made it necessary? In fact I’m sure some poor bloody migrants are being tortured in police cells in Paris, London and Frankfurt right now as you read this.
The business of shrub and co ‘legitimising torture’ is as sick as it is maddening, but don’t make the error of imagining they initiated torture.
Torture of enemies has been a function of war since forever. The purpose of that torture is rarely to extract information as it is to create a feeling amongst one’s own soldiers that they ‘got back’ at the enemy and an attempt to create fear in that enemy since torture of prisoners is rarely concealed from the other side.
I suppose it could be argued that shrub and co were overwhelmed with inadequacy at their failure to prevent 911 so torture was one suitable but strategically worthless and totally immature way of ‘getting back’ at Muslims. About what one would expect from weaklings of their ilk.
But they didn’t initiate torture. Hell amerikan ‘specialists’ have been teaching how to torture since at least as long as the school of the americas has been running. The Abu Ghraib torturers had plenty of practice on amerikan citizens in the jails they worked in prior to going to Iraq. No one taught them how to do it in Iraq.
In fact the most terrifying and disheartening thing about torture is the realisation when being tortured that this is nothing special, nothing unusual, the torturers have been trained in the job, often with taxes of the victim, and are the contemporary members of a ‘culture’ which has thousands of years of unbroken membership.
That was my minor epiphany prior to the pain. That those charged with upholding society’s laws have an established culture of breaking the very laws they are meant to uphold. Even worse that permission for this lawbreaking has always been given by those who make the laws in our ‘democratic’ society and the only requirement is that those in power are not directly implicated.
That is the truly strange and weird thing about what shrub and his co-conspirators did.
I’m sure that many more humans have been tortured under other amerikan regimes. When cigar Bill clinton was big in Somalia, Latin America (esp Columbia) and the former Yugoslavia, I’d reckon that in sheer numbers prolly a lot more humans were waterboarded etc at the behest of amerikan power. But I also bet clinton would have run a million miles from any explicit discussion of it. He would have had a system of winks and nudges to let his minions know “what must be done”.
The english probably tortured and murdered (on a per capita basis anyhow) just as many Iraqis and islamic ‘terrarists’ as amerika has. I don’t imagine they get the quick ‘confessions’ at the “central london police station” where they are interrogated, without torture. The fact that the english police have always used the same police station to hold both IRA ‘suspects’ and AQ ‘suspects’ tends to suggest that there is equipment at that station unlike that found at “Dock Green”.
It is this dual system of having allegedly strong laws against things such as torture, imprisonment or execution without trial while in fact doing all that stuff hidden from view which has helped to convince people of other societies that the european/amerikan societies are perfidious and contemptible.
I’m not praising shrub, torture is a crime no matter what any laws may say, and shrub’s motives were perverted and perverse, but in one way he has at least been honest about what amerikan imperialism gets up to. Honest in a way that few other amerikan regimes have.
Of course honesty wasn’t his intention. These amerikan imperialists have the same sort of thinking as the technocrats who ran nazi germany, that everything should be written down and accounted for. It was that attention to detail which brought some of the nazis undone after ww2. Lets make the same thing happen here.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Apr 27 2008 23:12 utc | 24

the whole identity question is completely lost in translation for me & think in the western world – it is nothing but a ragged old piece of material – i can take my pick – we are what you have always suggested citizens of a larger world – whether i am french or jewish or australian or vietnamese is a wholly pointless question – i live – & as a man oppose with fanaticism, violence

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 27 2008 23:21 utc | 25

Here, chew on this reality bite. Nixon and George HW Bush Sr were both in
Dallas on “legal business,” the same day that Kennedy was assassinated!
Bin Laden Sr and George HW Bush Sr were both in NYC, the morning of 9/11!
Contract killings as bull fight spectator event, complete with box seating.
The guy gets around. He had his hands in Bay of Pigs, and Iran-Contra-gate.
He had his hands in drug money laundering CIA-plant Noriega, then used some
of that lucre to offer $100M for assassination of CIA-plant Saddam Hussein,
who he’d been trading weapons for agricultural aid, then later Oil for Food
through BNL Bank, which records were destroyed by a mysterious explosion,
(similar to the mysterious fire at the White House Annex re Abu Ghraib tapes.)
“Just wrapping up loose ends”, as they say in the crime family vernacular.
George HW Bush Sr pardoned 14 convicted co-conspirators as he left office.
Bush Crime Family’s rap sheet is a mile long: Pre GW3 News Release
1989 HUD-Housing and Urban Development Scandal
1989 Silverado Savings and Loan Scandals
1990 The MDC Holdings-Denver 200—Keating 5 Scandal
1991 BCCI–Bank of Credit & Commerce International
1991 RTC–Resolution Trust Corp. Scam
1992 Iraq Gate/ BNL Bank/ Gulf War Syndrome Scandal
1995 The Oklahoma Bombing to Destroy IRS/FBI records
2001 9/11 World Trade Center Bombing to Destroy Investigative Records
the day after Rumsfeld announces $1T missing from Pentagon accounts
All the WTC records were supposed to have been 100% backed up under Y2K
Data Redundancy Center program, which US taxpayers paid for. Where are they!?
Where are the SEC/IRS/FBI investigative records, destroyed in the WTC?!?

“It’s In The Blood” Comments
These are not folks you should trust to determine what is legal or illegal!
After Alamo, Waco, BushCo and now Eldorado, don’t even waste a warm piss
on anything these loony Texan Fed administrative law c’suckers come up with.
OK, the Bush’s are Old Connecticut War Crimes money, but you get the point.
If Hillary wins, McCain wins, or Obama wins … the crime spree continues.

Posted by: Peters Berg | Apr 27 2008 23:24 utc | 26

seriously, its got to be tough sometimes to be an American on this board. And for those who drift in here, they all deserve the maximum props for listening and listening and listening … tough as it may be sometimes. They truly deserve world-class props. There are some things that are distinctively American, and this board is very significantly enriched as a result.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Apr 28 2008 3:47 utc | 27

O yes, brave indeed to venture beyond the borders to actually try and understand the impact our lifestyles are having in those distant, far off places most of us will never see, let alone be able to locate on a map. but enough of the sarcastic posturing, this particular a-merry-can appreciates the sentiment, jony_b_cool.

Posted by: Lizard | Apr 28 2008 4:57 utc | 28

in the syrian reactor thread, r’giap made a comment which i wanted to add something to, but i’ll do it here, since it’s a better fit

& those united states are not a warrior culture, they are a violent culture & a culture absorbed by violence – which is a quite different thing

that point brought me back to some counsel a lakota elder gave to the young warrior crazy horse, as the exigency on what was to be done about the growing settlement at fort laramie & ongoing incursion into their lands became inescapable.
this is from the book the journey of crazy horse: a lakota history, by joseph marshall III and based largely on their oral history

“The Snakes, Crows, and Pawnees have been our enemies for longer than anyone can remember. So we know them, where they live, how they fight, and how they think. When we meet them on the field of battle, sometimes their medicine is stronger and other times ours is. That’s how things are. The whites don’t understand war. They don’t understand that the power of an enemy is a way to strengthen our fighting men. They are killers. A killer does not respect something or someone he knows he can kill, or must kill. Therefore he does not measure victory by the strength of his medicine. He measures his victories by how many he has killed. If we are to defeat this kind of people, we must come to know them in every way. It is not a pleasant thought, but it is necessary.”

you are so right about this not being a warrior culture

Posted by: b real | Apr 28 2008 5:20 utc | 29

b real…
I had the honor to do a ‘sun dance’, with the Lakota about a decade and a half ago, and have the scars to prove it. It was a very introspective time in my life, and gained alot from the experience. This coming from a guy whose first movie on the silver screen, as a kid was Little Big Man. It had a major effect on me, and was my favorite movie of all time for many many years.
thanks for sharing that joseph marshall III quote…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Apr 28 2008 6:15 utc | 30

Thank you b real, for reminding me of Crazy Horse, and the Lakota, and how warriors saw killers.
It reminds me that Native Americans came to represent freedom to the European settlers because cultural norms in the nations enticed settlers to escape their towns and their cultural chains. It reminds me that no Native American ever ran away to the whites to seek freedom and a better life. It reminds me that culture does not necessarily mean sacrificing oneself for an empire.
Just that in America when we say culture, we mean corsets replacing muscles, we mean pills replacing nutrition, we mean caesarean sections replacing birth. We mean choosing that which is less alive.
So I still rebel at the word, but I’m not sure if I’m disagreeing with my friend rememberinggiap at all anymore. Why reject a word?
We have a long history of arguing that

Saddam [would] have been justified in nuking New York

and we rely on this concept, culture, to avoid seeing what we are arguing.
Why so stuck on a word? Because I think “culture” is the concept that Monolycus is pointing to when he says that we think

“wrongness” only applies to the actions of others.

Because the word helps us pretend that we are slaves.

Posted by: citizen | Apr 28 2008 10:53 utc | 31

Uncle’s post on the dollar decline thread really seems to belong in this conversation. a snippet:

Violence, even terror, always exists on the periphery of America. These are the means by which empire is consolidated, defended, extended and perpetuated.
We live in a culture of increasing emptiness…

Uncle, is that your quote in blockquote?

Posted by: citizen | Apr 28 2008 11:30 utc | 32

Moral relativism on the offensive:

Mr. Pipes refers to this new enemy as the “lawful Islamists.”

This is from a NYT story about Debbie Almontaser and the Kahlil Gibran School in NYC.
hat tip to Lawyers, Guns, and Money

Posted by: citizen | Apr 28 2008 14:43 utc | 33

citizen
waanted to say that our arguments, our quarrel with ourselves – is an act of friendship, hopefully fraternal

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 28 2008 20:38 utc | 34

wanted to say that our arguments, our quarrel with ourselves – is an act of friendship, hopefully fraternal

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 28 2008 20:40 utc | 35

rememberinggiap,
not only fraternal, but thankful too for the camaraderie.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 28 2008 21:06 utc | 36

me @ 36

Posted by: citizen | Apr 28 2008 21:07 utc | 37

bernhard, thanks for this thread.
The concepts are something worth getting your teeth into …
citizen, are you saying that “culture” includes and excuses us?
So if someone says “I’m a Westerner and we do things that way …” then that person gives up self responsibility, by claiming to be just part of the group. And that in itself is an excuse?
Or better, “I’m a member of the Western culture and …”
This is an issue that concerns me too, but from the point of view of what one loses by joining the mainstream, and whether it is fair to criticize someone who has not.
Many things are eased when one decides to not rock the boat, but at what cost?
By the same token, a rebellious nature resists mainstreaming, perhaps by default. Yet this position has its dangers as well, since laws and norms exist and punishment is meted out to transgressors.
There seems to be no easy answer to this question, of course rational evaluation is one approach, yet the method of “going with your gut instinct” also seems valid!

Posted by: jonku | Apr 29 2008 0:17 utc | 38

citizen @32
No, it’s not mine, it’s been oatmealed-pasted all over town for a few years now on the electric boxes, phone poles etc…. , hence the blockquote.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Apr 29 2008 3:01 utc | 39

jonku,
I think culture is everything that the Freudians might call introjected. It is ghosts that have been dignified into a kind of orthodoxy, an essentially automatic chattering that is shared among many. It is not present. It cannot actually enjoy anything.
We are each present, so long as we don’t just identify with all that chattering that passes across our awareness. We can even choose what to attend to.
And if we choose to identify as culture, then a Christian such as myself would say we are choosing to turn our backs on God. Because God is “I am” and culture is not I (or me).
Yes, to pass the buck to one’s culture or the culture’s laws is slavish and irresponsible, but worst of all it is destructive of all our joy. At one point, I believe the Christian gospels call this spirit Legion. We are responsible for being ourselves, not anyone else, because that is the only way God can act. It is a moral act to enjoy the present moment, and not to live only in the past and the future as the deranged economists would have us.
I hope the Christian referents are not too distracting, but i want to be clear that I am not advocating solipsism, but being alive as the only way to actually share humanity with others – religion seems to be the register in which most people here in the States make that attempt. I don’t think it matters what faith you are, only that you use it to be more aware/more yourself, not less.
culture pretends to include us, but it is not alive. i am

Posted by: citizen | Apr 29 2008 3:48 utc | 40

gramsci, from notes for an introduction and an approach to the study of philosophy and the history of culture

..everyone is a philosopher, though in his own way and unconsciously, since even in the slightest manifestation of any intellectual activity whatever, in ‘language’, there is contained a specific conception of the world, one then moves on to the second level, which is that of awareness and criticism. That is to say, one proceeds to the question: is it better to ‘think’, without having a critical awareness, in a disjointed and episodic way, to take part in a conception of the world mechanically imposed by the external environment, i.e. by one of the many social groups in which everyone is automatically involved from the moment of entry into the conscious world (and this can be one’s village or province; it can have its origins in the parish and the ‘intellectual activity’ of the local priest or ageing patriarch whose wisdom is law, or in the little old woman who has inherited the lore of the witches or the minor intellectual soured by his own stupidity and inability to act) or is it better to work out consciously and critically one’s own conception of the world and thus, in connection with the labours of one’s own brain, choose one’s sphere of activity, take an active part in the creation of the history of the world, be one’s own guide, refusing to accept passively and supinely from outside the moulding of one’s personality?
Note I. In acquiring one’s conception of the world one always belongs to a particular grouping which is that of all the social elements which share the same mode of thinking and acting. We are all conformists of some conformism or other, always man-in-the-mass or collective man.

roy wagner, from the invention of culture

Our much celebrated “Western history” is in fact invention placed “out of awareness”; it is dialectic experienced as event, as nature. Whether we call this dialectic a “class struggle” (which it often is), “the rise and decline of high cultural organisms” (which it cleverly mimics), “man’s struggle with nature within him and around him” (its operating illusion), or “evolution” (dialectic as nature, “natural history”), the one necessity that it presents to us is that we bring it into awareness.

“awareness and criticism”
obviously something we practice every day here at MoA. and if we can invent history, what, then, are we waiting for?

Posted by: b real | Apr 29 2008 5:47 utc | 41

obviously something we practice every day here at MoA. and if we can invent history, what, then, are we waiting for?
I think that is what we actually do here. In the midst of all the present and past contextualized information, gets produced on reflection, certain affinities of human truth. So in the end it’s either that, or the money, or the soma. And the last two never create anything but trouble.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 29 2008 6:20 utc | 42

better yet, as expressed by Tired Feet.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 29 2008 9:22 utc | 43

or, again in The Rifle.
hope you give these a spin, something very rarefied going down here. Aleala Diane.

Posted by: anna missed | Apr 29 2008 18:36 utc | 44

am
yes they are beautiful songs

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 29 2008 20:22 utc | 45