Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 30, 2008
Why do these donors support Clinton’s strategy?

Hillary Clinton promises to prolong the primaries, which she has essentially lost, All The Way to Denver

Sen. Clinton gave a pretty astonishing interview to the Washington Post in which she appears to say she will stay in the race till the convention in August, where she will take her fight to the credentials committee to have the delegates from the non-sanctioned Michigan and Florida primaries seated.

That may rip the Democratic party apart. In my view, that alone wouldn’t be a big loss. But it seriously increases the chances for McCain to win the bigger race and the chances for more wars in the Middle East.

In a letter to speaker Pelosi major donors support Clinton’s strategy and put pressure on the Democratic Party to not force an earlier decision.

Xymphora, Jeffrey St Clair and Nicholas D. Kristof have suggested that a 2008 victory for McCain is what Hillary (and Bill) Clinton now want.

In four years McCain is too old to run again and Clinton could then have another chance to run and win, while a 2012 attempt against a sitting president Barak Obama is likely a guaranteed defeat.

So one can certainly understand Hillary’s personal motives to take the fight to the bitter end.

But one wonders what the real aims of these party donors are. Why do they support a strategy that may lead to a devastating loss for their party? Why do they essentially support McCain and his bellicose threats against Iran?

The Jewish Telegraphic Agency finds:

Twelve of the 20 Clinton backers who warned Nancy Pelosi to keep out of the Democratic presidential primaries are Jewish.

The 20 signatories to the letter sent recently to Pelosi (D-Calif.), the speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, are major donors to the Democratic Party and strong supporters of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.).

Hmm … time for some ‘conspiracy theories’?

Comments

So why should the donors *not* support Clinton?
When looking at the three remaining candidates, Clinton has without any doubt the most valid “business-friendly” credentials. Obama talks all the while about “change”, which might be dangerous to the vested interests. And McCain did curb some of the wasted spending for unnecessary weapon systems – even if it was more for show than for real: I doubt this is nothing cetrtain circles do want to encourage.
Now, even though Obama is in front, Clinton still has a chance. Even more so if she can convince the party to accept the delegates from Florida and Michigan. If trying to do this damages the democrats – so what? I doubt that her donors really care about the democrats as much as about Hillary.
If she loses the primaries, then she might still run as an independent. Especially if the delegates from Florida and Michigan had made the difference – then she could claim some legitimacy. (Again: if this damages the democrats, so what?) She would need heavy financial backing in this position – but as I said: She is the most “pro-business” candidate. Her obvious strategy in this case would have to claim the middle ground. It’s not likely she would win this way, but still possible.
I guess… I like Hillary even less than McCain.

Posted by: No So Ana | Mar 30 2008 18:07 utc | 1

One flows from the other…
Obama can’t win. He represents Minority Change. America is still Majority Sloth.
Welfare entitlements and civil service/dot.gov contracts employ 2/3rds of US.
O’s Pop, he’s Ali, but he’s not going to win on bread and butter issues in Nov.
Hillary can’t win. She represents Majority Sloth, all those welfare entitlements
and civil service/dot.gov contractors, Old School unions and alderman politics.
Her nomination will shake America to its roots, every Republican alive, even the
recently dead, will rise against her, every right-wing talk show host, every Fox
and MSNBC news report, every boardroom, every bank/brokerage across the country.
McCain can’t win. He represents the apex of that pyramid of greed and corruption
the whole world is watching. The Neo-Zi’s can mushroom the war of Iraq attrition
back to life, McCain can rattle his limp sword on the bully pulpit of patriotism,
right-wing media can defrost Joe McCarthy and serve his corpse in dribs and drabs,
but will only serve the disenhancement and disorganization of Neo-Zi architecture.
Everyone in US politics knows this. They’re all waiting for a defining moment, some
Neo-9/11 which will turn our world upside down, an urgent crisis, then martial law,
because if it’s not martial law now, it will be in December after the selection.

Posted by: Petey Michelson | Mar 30 2008 18:41 utc | 2

@No So Ana – business friendly? I guess McCain beats Clinton in that field by some length (compare the posititions on mortgage bailouts, healthcare …). So why aren’t her donors with him? Or are they?
If the donors had mostly Democratic position concern, they would tell her to stop now. Hillary has nil chance (mathematically) to win enough delegates if things are followed by the rules. Five month more of Democratic circular firing squad are not good for an overall win.
Then why do these donors fight for her – or do they really do it for her?
Why is Richard M. Scaife now lauding Clinton?
Same objective?

Posted by: b | Mar 30 2008 19:09 utc | 3

I think it’s quite telling, B., that it’s a Jewish source that has to lay bare what was obvious to me as soon as I read the list of donors: this is an AIPAC order to Pelosi, with all that it implies.
I also think it puts to rest any argument that Hillary may be inclined to end the war. On the contrary, this mere letter is the absolute and definitive proof that a Clinton presidency, just like a McCain presidency, would mean a 100% odds of war on Iran, if Bush hasn’t started it before.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Mar 30 2008 20:09 utc | 4

this is an AIPAC order to Pelosi
obviously.
Especially if the delegates from Florida and Michigan had made the difference – then she could claim some legitimacy.
obama wasn’t even on the ballot in florida because the state opted out of having their delegates count at the convention. it wasn’t the choice of the party. plus, in order to opt out, the dem party required signatures from the candidates prior to the primary that they were on board w/those delegates not having a vote..
the party sets the rules. florida and michigan went against the party to hold their primaries early. parties take these choices seriously. candidates should be bound to their decisions, and their signatures.
it would be hard for me to imagine the party officials backing down on the florida /michigan delegates. it would be a real slap in the face. it would be like referees at a ballgame saying their decisions were irrelevant and to let the crowd decide based on which side was screaming loudest.
the only way one could determine what the true delegate count of those states would be would be to hold primaries again. because many voters, knowing the state isn’t sending delegates to the convention, don’t vote in those primaries.
in wash state, the dem party primary votes don’t count towards delegates, only the caucus results. in texas, they are split 50/50 (or thereabouts). it would be akin to a state party saying ‘we like the results of our primary better, therefore we are going to assign all our delegates according to the results. there have to be some rules, otherwise any state could make up their own after the votes from the constituents. the rules are set before the votes, not after.
but hell, i don’t know, she could rig the system. why do they even bother w/letting us vote. we never choose the leaders anyway.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 0:06 utc | 5

The campaign coverage by the major media conglomerates sure has seemed designed to bring about a McCain (or Guiliani)/Obama general election match-up.
Since the spring of 2007 indisputably NBC News, owned by the second largest company in the world, has been promoting Sen. McCain and Sen. Obama. But whatever, maybe what we see on TV is a clever Clinton/corporatist plan to conceal their bond. What to make of the fact that neither Al Gore nor John Edwards are going to be the Democratic nominee this time around? Those are the politicians who received the worst press so they must have been the candidates most preferred by big business, QED.

Posted by: CMike | Mar 31 2008 0:12 utc | 6

check out this crowd
22,000 people. their are going to be a lot of angry people if the superdelegates don’t vote w/the population.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 0:25 utc | 7

The campaign coverage by the major media conglomerates sure has seemed designed to bring about a McCain (or Guiliani)/Obama general election match-up.
really? i haven’t noticed this. do you have any links to confirm it, or is it your impression?
i haven’t heard anything about guiliani in the press since he dropped out. if you have a link about a guiliani obama race that is current, i would be very interested to see it.
NBC News….has been promoting Sen. McCain and Sen. Obama.
hmmmm. nice link, but it is unrelated to your allegation.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 0:29 utc | 8

Welfare entitlements and civil service/dot.gov contracts employ 2/3rds of US.
do you have a link for this factoid or were your italics just for effect?

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 0:34 utc | 9

annie,
Were you being serious with your:

i haven’t heard anything about guiliani in the press since he dropped out. if you have a link about a guiliani obama race that is current, i would be very interested to see it.

No, I guess major media has not been promoting the Guiliani campaign since he dropped out of the presidential race after proving himself unable to win anywhere. My reference was to the time period prior to his dropping out when America’s Mayor got months, nay years, of good Main Stream Media press with very little objective scrutiny.
You want links? What, one to Wikipedia or something? Here’s one brought to you by the MediaMatters crowd.
Here’s a graf from an edition of The Daily Howler.
********************
“Excuse me, Dee Dee [Myers],” [Chris] Matthews said on the January 8 Hardball, “everybody thought Hillary was going to win this nomination. The international betting odds have been clear for years now.” As part of his array of cracked pottery, Matthews loves to cite betting odds.
But in this case, Matthews was simply ignoring what an endless array of insider guests had said on his own programs during the spring of 2007 Obama announced his campaign in Springfield, Illinois on February 10, 2007; Matthews spent several clownish hours on the air, trying to decide if Obama reminded him more of Jack, or Bobby, or Martin. (Or was he more like Abraham Lincoln?) Three weeks later, still pimping hard, to asked a panel of housebroken guests (on The Chris Matthews Show) a question about the Dem race.
This is what people were saying on The Chris Matthews Show in March of 2007:

MATTHEWS (3/4/07): OK, let me go around the room. Will he, meaning Obama, catch Hillary by Memorial Day in the polls?
KATHLEEN PARKER: I think so. He’s going to move fast.
MATTHEWS: David [Gregory], Democratic primaries—Democratic vote. Will he catch her in that poll, the next poll we take on Memorial Day?
GREGORY: Yeah.
ELISABETH BUMILLER: I think so.
CLARENCE PAGE: So many variables, but they—within shouting distance.

*********************
What does this prove? Nothing by its lonesome. It’s just an example of Chris Matthews promoting his interpretation that every development is proof that Clinton is a failure.
I’m not here to write a book. I think it’s pretty clear that Sen. Clinton has gotten far worse press than Sen. McCain and Sen. Obama for many months. You disagree? Do you have a link that proves you disagree?

Posted by: CMike | Mar 31 2008 2:02 utc | 10

The Coverage is so convoluted this time around it’s a joke. Hillary is winning the blue state primaries. If this were not the case, they’d reschedule the Mich & Fla. primaries in a heartbeat. They don’t dare ‘cuz Brzez wants to stuff Oybama in & if they held those now w/Penn. it’s be obvious he’d have to drop out. All he’s done is use race-baiting to round up the black vote, then win red state caucuses that most people can’t even attend. He wins them by sending in people to bully attendees into line by telling them that the Right will never allow another Clinton to win. So, upon closer inspection he’s won virtually nothing. Nowhe’s resorted to the ususal denial & projection. Why doesn’t She – the female is always the big bad bitch – drop out so he can be handed what he can’t win.
Pres. Gore anyone??? He seemed sufficiently coy recently that I think he might actually be seriously considering accepting a draft – even though his money is flowing in so easily now. They’re all so vile, we’re screwed no matter what. But I do think that Repugs are recognizing Barfy Oybama is one of their own & realize McCain can’t cut it in any dimension, so I’d be surprised if he was well enough funded by Wall St. to allow him to mount a serious run, unless he sold them on a VP, who I cannot imagine. Now he seems to be going from VP to VP so he can seduce money out of varying constituences – first Jews, then Mormons,…next…god knows… What a Zoo… Wish we could throw all 3 fishies back in the pond & start over, to the left of center, rather than all w/in 3 degrees of the abyss…

Posted by: jj | Mar 31 2008 3:28 utc | 11

Finally, Superb new bloggers are emerging & getting known a bit. Vastly superior to the Usual Suspects 🙂

Posted by: jj | Mar 31 2008 3:37 utc | 12

Barfy Oybama? What is this, kindergarden? Please, just stop.
An AIPAC order to Pelosi? Good grief, b, sorry, but this is the most embarrassing thread ever on an otherwise excellent site.

Posted by: mats | Mar 31 2008 4:59 utc | 13

cmike it’s pretty clear that Sen. Clinton has gotten far worse press than Sen. McCain and Sen. Obama
yes, i would agree w/that. on the other hand she got a free ride for a year, everyone just assuming she would be the nominee.
i am understanding more what you mean, the assumption that they are being ‘nice ‘ to them means they are looking for a match up between the two. for some reason i thought you meant you had heard a lot about a mcCain/Obama election or inevitability. most of the news i have heard on obama is still referring to his campaign w/clinton.
the gop hates the clintons, no news there. so of course they are going to bash hillary. that is a nobrainer. however i think many people make their choices for other reasons.
It’s just an example of Chris Matthews promoting his interpretation that every development is proof that Clinton is a failure.
you sound like you are taking this very personally. i haven’t heard anyone in the news say clinton is a failure. she is however, loosing as a result of obamas winning streak which i think has more to do w/obama than the msm. for some reason , and i don’t know why, all the criticism he takes from the msm and the bloggers alike are around such stupid things as his name and muslim cracks. the extremists keep calling him by his first, middle and last name. lame. if that is the level of drivvel we are going to be hearing from fox it may backfire.
that said i don’t really hang out much @ kos or the local political blogs. just more into the war. i hear things are getting ugly.
if you have an nbc link of them rooting for an obama/mcCain election i would be interested to read it.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 5:17 utc | 14

all the criticism he takes from the msm and the bloggers alike are around such stupid things as his name and muslim cracks.
hmm – I tried not to do that – Neocon Obama, April 2007 … I still think his Foreign Policy isn’t good …
@mats – An AIPAC order to Pelosi? Good grief, b, sorry, but this is the most embarrassing thread ever on an otherwise excellent site.
Why is this embarrassing? Fact is that 12 out 20 who pressured Pelosi are representing a special interest. What is wrong with noticing that?

Posted by: b | Mar 31 2008 5:41 utc | 15

12 out 20 who pressured Pelosi are representing a special interest
Are they, b? Maybe I’ve missed an explicit connection, but it strikes me as embarrassing indeed to cast Jewishness alone as a special interest, and even more embarrassing to make an immediate leap that this amounts to an “AIPAC order”. I’ll be quick to apologize if it can be shown.
Past that I find the Obama name stuff childish and tiresome – no fault of yours.

Posted by: mats | Mar 31 2008 5:58 utc | 16

but it strikes me as embarrassing indeed to cast Jewishness alone as a special interest,
Well, the JTA obviously thought it was significant enough to report it. A 60% share in a sponsor/pressure group when the share in the population is 1.7% is not a statistical quirk.
and even more embarrassing to make an immediate leap that this amounts to an “AIPAC order”
That wasn’t me – I don’t know if these folks are AIPAC members. AIPAC certainly plays a role in the current election discussion though.
Here is the Forward, a jewish daily, noting

Lonnie Kaplan, a major fundraiser for Clinton in New Jersey who is also a former president of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, said he was angered over the decision not to hold new elections to replace the contested primaries in Florida and Michigan, and that he would be “very upset” if delegates from those states are not seated at the convention in August.
“It’s like giving the death penalty for a speeding ticket,” Kaplan told the Forward, adding that should Clinton fail to win the nomination, his support for Obama over presumptive Republican nominee Senator John McCain would not be a given.

Posted by: b | Mar 31 2008 6:36 utc | 17

jj,
Thanks for recommending Anglachel’s Journal. I bookmarked the site after reading the entire thread of the post to which you linked. In fact I followed some links from there and ended up reading this:

An irony of all ironies.
If Condi Rice were on the Republican ticket, we could compare the level of respect accorded to her by Republicans with the now infamous Democratic pastime of denigrating, ridiculing and hating the only serious female presidential contender we’ve ever had. And why have we never had a serious female presidential contender? Oh yeah, because we live in a culture that has a long history of denigrating, ridiculing and hating women.
Republicans would never stand for the media to treat Rice or any other woman on the Republican ticket with the vile disrespect showered on Hillary Rodham Clinton. Democrats have benefited from and all but begged corporate media to insult Hillary, and thus all women, with daily barrels of misogyny. With Condi Rice on the ticket, I’m guessing sexism becomes a firing offense at MSNBC. And I’m guessing Rush Limbaugh begins to look like a sensitive and gracious gentleman next to sexist thug Bill Maher.
Why am I a Democrat? I forget.

Posted by: CMike | Mar 31 2008 6:51 utc | 18

hillary hardly represents “all women”, no one does – not even Kindasleezy Rice.

Posted by: jcairo | Mar 31 2008 7:07 utc | 19

jcairo,
I guess your larger point is that, because Barack Obama “hardly represents all” blacks, the use of certain colloquialisms and stereotypes to demean him is all right as far as you’re concerned.
You must feel right at home in this thread.

Posted by: CMike | Mar 31 2008 7:54 utc | 20

Saying that Hillary-bashing is misogynistic is just concern-trolling. There’s nothing progressive or “Democratic” left in Hillary Clinton, just sheer ambition and power greed. It’s quite sad to have to admit that a good deal of GOP criticism of the Clintons was, in fact, quite spot on, and that the only side they’re ever on is their own personal ones, and they couldn’t care less about anyone else.
There’s an obvious reason why media people could tell in late 2007 that some candidate would catch up with HRC. It’s the simple fact that there’s no way she could ever be elected, unless her opponent would be BinLadin. Half the country just hates her guts, and even before the primaries that included a sizable part of the Dems.
Which isn’t to say Obama would be that better; there are too many unknowns with him, and some disturbing knowns. That said, I tend to think that only the final campaigning for the real election would reveal if there would be no sizable difference between McCain and Obama – as Nader would say. On the other hand, Clinton is the biggest candidate of status quo and establishment the Dems had since a long time, which is a key reason why many people would just go fishing instead of voting if she’d be the nominee in Nov. There’s no need to label them as chauvinistic pigs, they would do the same if Lieberman were the nominee.
If the dislike of Clinton is massively growing in some Dems circles, it’s not because she’s a woman, it’s because she’s campaigning like Rove were her campaign manager. So far, it isn’t Obama that has stated that HRC was unfit to be president and McCain would be a far better choice. It isn’t Obama’s campaign that has implied his opponent was a Muslim Manchurian candidate that would undo the USA and turn it into a caliphate. It’s not Obama’s campaign which basically relies on not-so-subtle “What does this n… thinks he’s doing, this is a white people contest, not a minstrel show” whistleblows.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Mar 31 2008 8:57 utc | 21

You picked the right handle for yourself CluelessJoe.

Posted by: CMike | Mar 31 2008 9:19 utc | 22

From Bill Blum’s latest Anti-Empire Report:
A recurring theme of Hillary Clinton’s campaign for the presidency has been that she has more of the right kind of experience needed to deal with national security and foreign policy issues than Barack Obama…
And so it goes. And so it has gone for many years. What is it with this experience thing for public office? It was not invented by Hillary Clinton. If I need to have my car repaired I look for a mechanic with experience with my particular car. If I needed an operation I’d seek out a surgeon with lots of experience performing that particular operation. But when it comes to choosing a person for political office, the sine qua non consideration is what their politics are. Who would you choose between two candidates — one who was strongly against everything you passionately supported but who had decades of holding high government positions, or one who shared your passion on every important issue but had never held any public office? Is there any doubt about which person almost everyone would go for? So why does this “experience” thing keep coming up in so many elections?

Anglachel’s Journal is like the sitcom Seinfeld: a very articulate show about nothing. And yes, these are typical Democrats — who automatically assume that their team is really for the little guy — while remaining willfully blind to the true machinations of power and influence which drive events and issues. To them, Bill is still the Big Dog who did a great job, and Hillary can do even better.
Sigh…

Posted by: Regular Joe | Mar 31 2008 9:29 utc | 23

it’s all professional wrestling, crowd enthralling, money grabbing, tv buying. Personally think the most telling thing is that fake-dems will meet in Denver and fake-repubs in Minneapolis/Saint Paul, i.e. neither is near a coast.
As said before, think Gore is chosen, probably after catastrophe that appears climate caused. Tag teams possibly Gore/Obama(or reverse and Obama killed) & Son of Cain/Rice.
” Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves.”
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen’s keynote address at the Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy at the Georgia Center, Mahler Auditorium, University of Georgia, Athens, Ga. 4/28/97
Think “electromagnetic waves” a red herring, at least for earthquake part, but mostly think it interesting that a secretary of defense would say such a statement, soon 11 years ago. They tease us.

Posted by: plushtown | Mar 31 2008 11:16 utc | 24

CMike:
I guess your larger point is that, because Barack Obama “hardly represents all” blacks, the use of certain colloquialisms and stereotypes to demean him is all right as far as you’re concerned.
How do you get that out of jcairo pointing out the obvious? By the way Obama isn’t black he is half black and half white.

Posted by: Sam | Mar 31 2008 12:22 utc | 25

Sam,
You ask me, “How do you get that out of jcairo pointing out the obvious?”
Let’s see, I quoted from a post which read in part:

Democrats have benefited from and all but begged corporate media to insult Hillary, and thus all women, with daily barrels of misogyny.

jcairo responded:

hillary hardly represents “all women”, no one does – not even Kindasleezy Rice.

I took that to mean a misogynistic insult directed at Sen. Clinton should not be taken as an insult of “all women.” By that logic it would follow then that a racial slur directed at Sen. Obama should not be taken as an insult of “all blacks.”
You have me stumped with the meaning of your comment:

By the way Obama isn’t black he is half black and half white.

Obama discussed this during that 60 Minutes interview:

“How important is race in defining yourself?” [Interviewer] Kroft asks.
“I am rooted in the African-American community. But I’m not defined by it. I am comfortable in my racial identity. But that’s not all I am,” he says.
“You were raised in a white household…. Yet at some point, you decided that you were black?” Kroft asks.
“Well, I’m not sure I decided it. I think, you know, if you look African-American in this society, you’re treated as an African-American. And when you’re a child in particular, that is how you begin to identify yourself,” Obama explains…
“There are African-Americans who don’t think that you’re black enough, who don’t think that you have had the required experience,” Kroft remarks.
“The truth of the matter is, you know, when I’m walking down the south side of Chicago and, visiting my barbershop, and playing basketball in some of these neighborhoods, those aren’t those aren’t questions I get asked,” Obama says.
“They think you’re black,” Kroft asks.
“As far as they can tell, yeah. I also notice when I’m catching a cab, nobody’s confused about that either,” he says…

Posted by: CMike | Mar 31 2008 13:41 utc | 26

cmike I took that to mean a misogynistic insult directed at Sen. Clinton should not be taken as an insult of “all women.” By that logic(meaning YOURS) it would follow then that a racial slur directed at Sen. Obama should not be taken as an insult of “all blacks.”
hmm, YOU post an editorial asserting an attack on clinton is an attack on all women. (which btw, i do not believe is true. for the most part criticism about her is not based on her sex). jcairo points out hillary doesn’t represent all women (meaning, as i understand it, an attack on clinton is NOT an attack on all women, essentially slashing your editorialist allegation an attacks on clinton are primarily misogynistic.)
listen to your editorial clearly.
If Condi Rice were on the Republican ticket, we could compare the level of respect accorded to her by Republicans with the now infamous Democratic pastime of denigrating, ridiculing and hating the only serious female presidential contender we’ve ever had. And why have we never had a serious female presidential contender?
does this mean clinton is being targeted because she is a woman? does this mean rice would be targeted because she is a woman? this is crazy. hillary and rice are both more than their sex. it is ludicrous to assert criticism of rice, if she were running would be because she is aserious female presidential contender. i can think of many rasons to criticize rice, i hardly need to go after her sex, same w/clinton.
I guess your larger point is that, because Barack Obama “hardly represents all” blacks, the use of certain colloquialisms and stereotypes to demean him is all right as far as you’re concerned.
your premise LEAPS to the assumption the editorialists allegations are true (they aren’t) the same flawed logic is then transfered to race (AS IF most people who criticizing obama do so out of racism, they DON”T) hence, since jcairo doesn’t agree w/the first premis his LARGER POINT, is to confirm your second.
BY YOUR LOGIC! not anyone elses.
keep digging.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 16:03 utc | 27

b, 15. i was very sloppy w/my allegation. i was referring to the rovian right msm tactic of insulting asides and undercurrent. ‘mistakingly’ using the name osama instead of obama.
how many times did we all hear bush being referred to as tough on terror. this claim someone is the most ready to protect us if we were attacked. this is what people are alleging as hllary’s strong point, her ‘experience’ and i don’t know where this comes from any more than i know where it came from w/bush. obviously he was a complete failure going after big O and AQ. it was all propaganda.
things are just getting very nasty and people are resorting to a grab bag of slimy tactics. that is what happens in campaigns. it just so happens that since we haven’t picked a nominee rather than watching this unfold between rethugs and dems, we are watching the dems slash it out.
the clintons have more experience in campaigns and their dirty tricks are more obvious. does it mean obama isn’t playing nice? no. i am just not as aware of it if he is hitting way below the belt.
have we heard obama use hillary’s sex against her in this campaign? not that i am aware of. have we heard the clintons use race? yes. they got called on it immediately and repeatedly.
back to my point, for the most part i am not hearing articulation in the msm why obama is unqualified, other than his lack of experience.
the only real in depth somewhat widespread criticism i have heard about obama is covered here
In (Some) Jews Against Obama, the Nation’s Eric Alterman has the most in-depth roundup I’ve seen yet of charges leveled against Obama by various American Likudnik Jewish leaders including Mort Klein of the the Zionist Organization of America, Malcolm Hoenlein of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, and a counsel at the American Jewish Committee.
it centers around his possible unwillingness to protect israel. the problem w/this argument is we can’t have israel being discusses in a presidential election. that isn’t kosher. hence it gets disguised in all this other stuff, like stupid rumors of him being muslim.
i think big jewish donors, which ever party they support, and which ever candidate, whether they are connected to apaic or not (hello!) should just come out and say WHY they think hillary would be better as president. because face it, she has no experience that i am aware of that proves she can defend the US any better than obama. israel? i think we should talk about israel, instead of the context being the ‘war on terror’. who’s war?

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 16:32 utc | 28

Link missing at end of 28 annie.

Posted by: beq | Mar 31 2008 16:51 utc | 29

her is another excellent post from muzzlewatch DC heavyweights issue letter defending former Clinton advisor: “Anti-Israel” charges have to stop
one of the things i find interesting is how for the most part this is silenced by the msm. we have all been treated to 24/7 coverage of obamas connection to his pastor. apparently being associated w/’anti white’ and racism is much more popular w/the msm than charges of anti semitism. can you even IMAGINE a 24/7 onslaught and public debate about obama being associated w/anti zionists???? please. they won’t go there, not in a million years. it is framed as ” being used as a punching bag in the fight over Jewish votes and who would be president.”
this isn’t about jewish votes. they simply do not make up that much of the electorate. and most jews don’t vote for israel, they vote out of concern for THEIR COUNTRY, like most americans.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 16:56 utc | 30

sorry beq, here’s the link
The Complete Unexpurgated AIPAC Tape

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 16:58 utc | 31

for those of you who are scrolling impaired
circa’92

DS: I’ve known Bill for seven, eight years from the National Governors Association. I know him on a personal basis. I have friends. One of my friends is Hillary Clinton’s scheduler, one of my officer’s daughters works there. We gave two employees from AIPAC leave of absences to work on the campaign. I mean, we have a dozen people in that campaign, in the headquarters.
HK: You mean in Little Rock?
DS: In Little Rock, and they’re all going to get big jobs. We have friends. I also work with a think tank, the Washington Institute. I have Michael Mandelbaum and Martin Indyk being foreign policy advisers. Steve Speigel—we’ve got friends—this is my business.
HK: I understand, David.
DS: It’s very complicated and the more you get into it, you’ll love it. You sound like a smart guy.
HK: I’m a smart guy, but I have a, maybe because I’m more orthodox than you are, I’ve had bad experiences with Gentiles. Let me ask you, you know what “tachlis” means?
DS: Yeah, sure.
HK: From a practical point of view, if Clinton wins the presidency, and I’m sure he will, I hope so at least, what will be the benefits to Israel better than Bush? From a very practical point . . . I mean, you just told me that Bush gave you everything you wanted. . .
DS: Only, not everything, at the end, when we didn’t want the F-15s, that’s a terrible thing.
HK: Selling the F-15s? If Clinton is elected. . .
DS: Let me tell you the problem with the $10 billion in loan guarantees, right? We only have the first year. We have authorization from Congress, but it’s at the discretion of the president every year thereafter, so if Bush is there, he could say, you know, use it as a club, you know. ‘If you don’t give up Syria, I won’t give you the money. If you don’t give up the Golan Heights.’ It’s at the discretion of the president. And that’s why we need a friendly president and we have Bill Clinton’s ear. I talked to Bill Clinton.
HK: And Bill Clinton has made a commitment that if he’s elected . . . ?
DS: He’s going to be very good for us.
HK: And he’ll go ahead with the loan guarantees?
DS: We didn’t talk about that specifically, listen, I didn’t ask him that, but I have full confidence that we’re going to have a much better situation. He’s got Jewish friends. A girl who worked for me at AIPAC stood up for them at their wedding. Hillary lived with her. I mean we have those relationships. We have never had that with Bush. Susan Thomases, who’s in there, worked with me on the Bradley campaign. We worked together for 13 years. She’s In there with the family. They stay with her when they come to New York. One of my officers, Monte Friedkin, is one of the biggest fund-raisers for them. I mean, I have people like that all over the country.
HK: So, I mean from a practical point of view. . .
DS: He’s going to be with us.
HK: I don’t say, this business, you say, Bush only went ahead with the loan guarantees for one year.
DS: We only have. It’s mandatory they give us the $2 billion for one year. After that it’s subject to the discretion of the president.
HK: You mean the other $8 billion?
DS: That’s correct. On an annualized basis.
HK: Also, I heard that. . .
DS: They don’t have to give it to us.
HK: But if Clinton is elected. . .
DS:… feel reasonably certain we’re gonna get It.
HK: He’s made that commitment?
DS: Well, he said he’s going to help us. He’s got something in his heart for the Jews, he has Jewish friends. Bush has no Jewish friends.
HK: Right.
DS: Reagan had something . . . meshuga, but at least he had a commitment. He knew Jews from the film industry, he was one of the best guys for us. He had an emotional thing for the Jews. Bush doesn’t have it. That’s what it is really, if you have a feeling for our people, for what we believe in. Bush is, there’s a man with no principles. Absolutely no principles.
HK: I heard something about, but I never really understood it, with the scoring. One of my friends told me there’s a difference in the scoring, but I don’t understand. . .
DS: Scoring is like points that you pay.
HK: So let’s say, if Bush is elected on the loans . . .
DS: No, we’ve got the scoring arranged, it’s four and a half percent. It’s all done.
HK: That’s all done, even with Bush?
DS: Even with Bush. I’ve got that worked out.
HK: So that’s all done.
DS: It’s in the bill. It’s all passed. He signed the bill. It’s a matter of law.
HK: So it’s already four and a half percent?
DS: We could’ve had it less, but then we couldn’t. . .
HK: And Clinton, if he was president, he would give…?
DS: He could not change it, you cannot change it.
HK: No, but I’m saying, if he was president now, before the bill was signed, he would’ve given you the four and a half percent. . .
DS: I would’ve gotten less.
HK: I’m sorry?
DS: I would’ve gotten it cheaper.
HK: How much? Even two percent?
DS: Yeah, we thought we were going to get two percent. But Rabin gave it away.
HK: You mean Rabin didn’t bargain as good as he could have?
DS: That’s right.
HK: Unbelievable. So, if Clinton is elected, that will be the best. ..
DS: I think that will be the best we could do.
HK: So if you had a little lamp, a wishing lamp and you could wish for either Bush, Clinton or Perot. . .
DS: Clinton.
HK: Clinton all the way? And in terms of Israel having political power, between the three candidates, the one who will give us the most political power?
DS: Clinton is the best guy for us.
HK: He’s the best one.
DS: I hope you’re serious about what you told me.
HK: I am, I’ll tell you this [tells a long anecdote about David Souter promising to oppose abortion as a nominee and then reversing himself on the Supreme Court]. So I wish we had a Jewish candidate for president.
DS: I don’t think the country’s ready.
HK: If the country was ready, is there any Jewish candidate…?
DS:I wouldn’t venture to say anything.
HK: You know who? I don’t know him, I’ve never met him, Joe Lieberman.
DS: Oh, I’m very friendly with Joe. I’m having dinner with him Monday night.
HK: Let me tell you, I think Joe Lieberman would have, uh, would have, if he wasn’t Jewish, that’s the only problem he has. He’s highly respected.
DS: I’d like to see him on the Supreme Court.
HK: If Clinton is elected, has he told you who he’s going to put on the Supreme Court?
DS: We’re talking now. We don’t have no commitments yet. We’re just negotiating. We’re more interested right now, in the secretary of state and the secretary of National Security Agency. That’s more important to us.
HK: If Clinton is elected, who do you think will be secretary of state?
DS: We don’t know yet, we’re negotiating.
HK: Who are you hoping for?
DS: I’ve got a list. But I really can’t go through it. I’m not allowed to talk about it.
HK: But you figure, God willing, if Clinton’s elected . . .
DS: We’ll have access.
HK: You’ll have access and you’ll have a good input into who’s secretary of state.
DS: I do believe so.
HK: And the other position is. . .
DS: National security adviser.
HK: Those are the two critical positions.
DS: Right.
HK: Gotcha. Well, David, thanks for talking with me.
W: And we’re going to get together next week. I hope you’ll have your checkbook ready.
HK: Will do.
DS: Okay, thanks.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 17:10 utc | 32

@annie #30, I think you & others are getting tone deaf. That the ole rev. Wright could say such crap & not have his boy be completely laughted outta Dodge, tells us that Elites have carefully vetted him & found him an Obedient Savage – that is completely obedient to Elites, while savage to those beneath him. Otherwise such chatter would not be tolerated. Try to imagine Kucinich having Chomsky as his adviser & saying analagous things. He’s be insta toast.

Posted by: jj | Mar 31 2008 17:10 utc | 33

@b #3
I did not write that the donors of Hillary support the democrats in any way… they support, first and foremost her. Even if it hurts the party.
But I think that Hillary is much more “pro-business” in a very real sense; at least, if Bills term as president serves as a guideline.
Of course takes a stance where he endorses the republican agenda, just as Hillary endorses the democratic agenda – with words. But I think that Hillary – just as Bill – can be easily influenced to support laws which hurt the people and benefit the few. All in the name of “all americans”, of course. While I believe that McCain is much more his own man – and not afraid to take on the military-industrial complex, at that. And he might even have a residual grudge against the republican establishment. Of course, his own agenda is hawkish and often narrowminded – but it is his own.
Who of the two is better for the USA – frankly, I do not know. While Hillary might reduce the engagement in Afghanistan and Iraq, she would put a lot more money into corporate welfare. And I do not know how this balances out.
So the best hope is Obama. Not a lot of hope, but still…

Posted by: No So Ana | Mar 31 2008 17:14 utc | 34

That the ole rev. Wright could say such crap & not have his boy be completely laughted outta Dodge
i think it is you who are tone deaf. can you hear me?
apparently being associated w/’anti white’ and racism is much more popular w/the msm than charges of anti semitism.
of course we expect the msm to not only pick up on the wright controversy, and run w/it non stop. i am not saying they should or shouldn’t. you are missing my point, which is ..
why don’t we get a 24/7 onslaught from our msm over obama’s anti semitism? why is there no gloves off when it comes to israel? why are israel supporters (aipac) taking the back door?
from the nation article..
During the past few months a small group of neoconservative Jews, many of whom hold key positions in the world of official Jewish institutions, have been working to undermine the presidential candidacy of Barack Obama with a series of carefully planted character assassinations and deliberately misleading innuendo.
that’s my point. i am all for flushing out what is wrong w/obama. bring it on. they won’t because they don’t want to make israel the focus. whereas the msm has no problem making race the focus.
why is the nation writing this and not wapo or the nytimes. we hear the whinning
“Barack Obama doesn’t understand the continuing Arab war against Israel”……the notion of an Obama presidency “frightening.” ….Obama’s talk of “change” could prove “an opening for all kinds of mischief”
where’s the beef? where is the debate around the ladie’s round table @ ‘the view’ or joe scarborough and friends yabbing on incessantly like we expect from them? instead, my point.. we hear unsupported complaints w/the ‘hussain’ inclusion..
The Tennessee Republican Party issued a news release noting what it claimed was “a growing chorus of Americans concerned about the future of the nation of Israel, the only stable democracy in the Middle East, if Sen. Barack Hussein Obama is elected president of the United States.”
what kind of critisim is that? they don’t even tell us WHY they are ‘concerned’. where’s the beef on obama. i am not saying i don’t want to hear it, and i think b wrote an excellent post.. but that doesn’t address my issue. why does the msm have a gloves off policy?
because we can’t have a conversation about israel other than slurry anti semite innuendos that amount to nothing.
that Elites have carefully vetted him & found him an Obedient Savage
well, apparently some other elites have vetted hilary and found her and obedient slavage also.
let’s chat about one group of elites vs the other.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 17:56 utc | 35

lol, slavage! originally i wrote slave. while amending it i forgot to delete the l. i kind of like this word.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 18:01 utc | 36

There is one argument, which hasn’t been openly made by any candidate, but underlines some of their guys’ speech, which is that: “Americans won’t elect a Black” / “Americans won’t elect a woman”. My point here is that using this argument, from either campaign and by partisans of Obama or Clinton, is silly. Not because it won’t play a role – it will, as shown in polls and as the racist and sexist criticisms made by some in both campaigns have shown -, but it’s silly because, at the end of the day, I have the clear impression that both massively overlap, and the “people who won’t vote for a black guy” are the same as the “people who won’t vote for a woman”. These guys are lost for the Dems and will either go fishing or vote Macho Man McCain.
This of course doesn’t explain all Obama’s or Clinton’s negatives, which have also other causes – and it’s the reason why one must be careful when claiming opposition to Obama is mere racism (some of it is, most probably isn’t) or criticism of Clinton is misogyny (some of it is, most probably isn’t).

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Mar 31 2008 18:38 utc | 37

reading the above I wonder where the discussion about white males voting for John McCain is taking place … there must be some gender/racial preference in that and we can’t countenance that … right?

Posted by: b | Mar 31 2008 18:43 utc | 38

annie writes:
hmm, YOU post an editorial asserting an attack on clinton is an attack on all women. (which btw, i do not believe is true. for the most part criticism about her is not based on her sex)…
The editorial asserted misogynistic attacks on Sen. Clinton were attacks on all women. I agree with you that “for the most part criticism about her is not based on her sex.” I was referring to those criticisms that were intended to stereotype Clinton as a flawed female type, like “suddenly the claws come out” or “periodically when she’s feeling down.”

Posted by: CMike | Mar 31 2008 19:34 utc | 39

I was referring to those criticisms that were intended to stereotype Clinton as a flawed female type, like “suddenly the claws come out” or “periodically when she’s feeling down.”
is this the kind of stuff i have been missing out on not hanging out on firedoglake? sheesh.
ok, i have to admit ‘mysoginist demonizing’ is news for me. i did read the ridiculous piece in one of the msms on what she was wearing for god’s sake. unfortunately the post you linked to that accused dems of demonizing and slandering just forgot (oops) to link to an example. while i think it is apparent many goppers claim to ‘hate’ hillary (and clearly limbaugh w/his statements around rallying goppers thru their hatred of hillary is a nobrainer) i wouldn’t consider denigrating, ridiculing and hating hillary a infamous Democratic pastime, any more intense than say, the dem challengers going after dean which got very heated if you don’t recall. competitors denigrate in election campaigns and so do their constituents.
if i get angry and someone says my claws really came out i don’t get offended. maybe that’s just me. my claws do come out sometimes.
personally, as far as her demeanor is concerned, i not only have no problem w/it, i like it. it has nothing to do whatsoever w/my criticisms of her, which by the way, are my same reluctances regarding obama. i like her smile, the way she radiates strength. i have no issue w/her womanhood whatsoever.
it is unfortunate the person who wrote the post you linked to didn’t give us a few examples of this hate filled denigrating mysogynistic dem passtime of hillary as a ‘flawed female type’ because the intensity of the reaction to them seems very worked up indeed and neither of your examples warrant (in my mind) this level of attention.

Posted by: annie | Mar 31 2008 21:59 utc | 40

annie,
So you don’t know who made the “suddenly the claws come out” or the “periodically when she’s feeling down” comments. I take it you don’t know that reporter David Shuster was suspended from MSNBC for a comment he made or that Chris Matthews issued an on-air apology to Sen. Clinton for the reason he gave to viewers for her political success.
Just curious, do you know who uttered the name “Jesse Jackson” in South Carolina in January traumatizing many who were listening?
I guess, like you say, you’re “just more into the war.”

Posted by: CMike | Apr 1 2008 0:26 utc | 41

@20 – what annie said and a fine example of a straw man
now that we are talking about Obama, calling the fella Oybama is a semaphore reminding of the institutionalized influence peddling that is lobbying – which is criminal, AIPAC or not and if he is going to make his lobbyists happy, then he really isn’t interested in any kind of real solution – marketing uber alles (do see Century of the Self)
public figures, especially political ones, are rife for parody and are, the lot of them, entirely deserving of it
Don’t ever trust them, it is all we have

Posted by: jcairo | Apr 1 2008 12:22 utc | 42

not till you mentioned it and then i googled them, but didn’t bother reading why he said them . david who? lol. i had to google it to refresh my memory. i don’t have cable or watch much tv.
Just curious, do you know who uttered the name “Jesse Jackson” in South Carolina in January traumatizing many who were listening?
you mean, as in “An emotional wound or shock that creates substantial, lasting damage to the psychological development of a person, often leading to neurosis”.
lol. hey, ya seen one black politician, you’ve seen em all. a good example of someone putting his foot in his mouth, don’t blame the audience. same thing i told a friend who emailed me about the egregious error of hillary taking advantage of obama channeling reagan for god’s sake. doesn’t he know dems hate his guts, he shoulda known better.
i hear you mike. the msm has unfairly targeted your candidate who, according to her own words, is completely prepared to handle this including any and all slander and crap dished out about her. she’s a tough cookie mike, she can take it. and if she breaks down once and awhile and sheds a tear, so what? i certainly won’t fault her for it. in fact if i found our she never cried i would think less of her.
can we move on to more important issues like “Why do these donors support Clinton’s strategy?” why do you? her strategy, not her ability to wake up bushy tailed at 3 am.
take a breath mike, somebodies got to loose in this primary. will that somebody be the dem party as a whole, ie: the people? reminds me of that biblical story about cutting the baby in half.
here’s what we really don’t need, 5 more months of cannabalizing ourselves over petty issues. i just hope we have our nominee by june at the latest. it will give the party enough time to rally around one person. either way i don’t think that person will be mcCain nor my preferred candidate.
i’m done w/chatting about what i consider boring and irrelevant news bites. it’s been a slice.
public figures, especially political ones, are rife for parody and are, the lot of them, entirely deserving of it
hear hear.

Posted by: annie | Apr 1 2008 14:12 utc | 43

I don’t think it makes any difference who “wins”. That poor soul has to get out of bed 21 January 09, after the Ball, to face really challenging, do or die, issues. I wish the best. I hope the best. I’m not encouraged.

Posted by: Allen/Vancouver | Apr 2 2008 2:56 utc | 44

Lee Hamilton endorses Obama.
The fix is in.

Posted by: biklett | Apr 2 2008 4:14 utc | 45

@ biklett
The fix is in.
Indeed…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Apr 2 2008 8:16 utc | 46

biklett,
Amen. But I’m not sure your link really does Lee Hamilton justice:
**********************
Hamilton also soft-pedaled two key congressional inquiries. The first investigated the Iran-Contra scandal in 1987 and the second examined allegations that the 1980 Reagan-Bush campaign team had struck a treasonous deal with the hostage-holding Iranian government while Jimmy Carter was still president.
Conventional wisdom has attributed the target-friendliness of those latter investigations to Mr. Hamilton’s celebrated spirit of bipartisanship.
After all, what else could have persuaded Hamilton to narrow the scope of the Iran-Contra investigation in order to placate Dick Cheney and the rest of the committee’s Republicans, if not his desire to appear bipartisan?
And how else to explain Hamilton’s ill-advised decision to join with the panel’s Republicans (in defiance of all but one other Democrat) and immunize the testimony of a man on whom it had the goods, Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North (whose operations in the Old Executive Office Building had been exposed by reporter Parry in 1985-86)?
Thus emboldened, the cocky Col. North proceeded to cover up for then-Vice President Bush, and North was spared a felony record because his later criminal conviction was reversed because of his immunized testimony, which Hamilton had helped arrange.
Hamilton’s Iran-Contra performance was troubling. But he went several steps further when he chaired the October Surprise Task Force and handed the Reagan-Bush administration a deck full of get-out-of-jail-free cards…

Posted by: CMike | Apr 2 2008 8:26 utc | 47

The fix is in.
SA all the way?

Posted by: annie | Apr 2 2008 16:44 utc | 48